♪ ♪ welcome to "kasie d.c." tonight the vice-president will, quote, give a little distance after his press secretary tested positive for coronavirus. now the administration says he'll be at the white house tomorrow. we're going to have the latest reporting as other top officials

self-quarantine. plus, warnings of depression-era unemployment from a white house desperately trying to jump start the economy as cases and testing rise. plus, after michael flynn confessed in open court and pleaded guilty, department of justice drops its case against him. i talk one on one with congressman adam schiff. but we begin with that breaking news out of the white house tonight. a senior administration official told nbc news that vice-president mike pence would take the advice of the white house medical unit and, quote, give a little distance for a day or two after an aide tested positive for the coronavirus. now a spokesman tells the vice-president he will be at the white house tomorrow. joining me now from the white house is nbc news white house correspondent kelly o'donnell. kelly, this story seems to have been shifting very quickly over the last couple of hours and here just in a few minutes ago we got this new statement from the vice-president's office. what do we know about whether the vice-president is going to be there, what kind of contact he had with the aide who had

coronavirus, and how he's handling himself as compared to those health officials that are going to go so far as to appear via video conference at that hearing on tuesday? >> reporter: well, kasie, good to be with you and happy mother's day. the vice-president is keeping quiet over the weekend. nothing on his schedule. he was cleared to a extend a national security meeting held here saturday night, but he chose not to participate then. so keeping a quiet weekend, but no restrictions on his schedule based on the white house physician. and so his coming week, his schedule will not be affected by that, meaning no isolation, not in quarantine. but out of caution, kept a lower profile, laid low over the weekend. and so the message from the white house is that this is not affecting the ability of the vice-president to do his job. now, we've got a different approach from some of the top medical doctors who are in the front lines of public health. dr. fauci, the director of the cdc, robert redfield, and the

director of the fda steven hunt, all medical doctors, all part of the task force led by vice-president pence, and they are doing varying levels of isolation and quarantine. doctors redfield and hahn are going to be in isolation at home for two weeks. dr. fauci, based on his contacts with the white house staffer who tested positive, will be wearing a mask, will be checking his temperature, and will stay home for quite a bit, but may go into the office at times. so different approaches. but when you use words like quarantine or self-isolation, they have some definitions and that's something that the white house did not want to attach to the vice-president. they focus on the fact that he's tested every day. he has tested negative, they say, and he will follow the advice of his doctors. now, this stands out, kasie, because, of course, katie miller, the staff member who tested positive, that set off a lot of these steps, is the press secretary to the vice-president. by very nature of her job, spends a lot of time with him in close proximity.

after she tested positive, the vice-president went on to iowa on friday, kept his trip. but over the weekend, as we've said, laid low. katie miller, who is testing positive for this, has the virus, is not in the white house, and so these are different approaches. and when you've got the public health officials who say if you've been exposed, stay home, they're following their own doctor's orders. when it comes to the president and the vice-president who have different access to medical care and testing, they're doing something differently, not isolating. kasie? >> kelly o'donnell at the white house. thank you very much for all of that, and we will, of course, being staying with this if this guidance changes. it makes sense for sure what you're saying. of course, the fact that he's in the chain of command means the stakes are all that much higher in this case. >> reporter: very much so. >> thanks, kelly, for stiskicki around for us. meanwhile the us has passed 80,000 dead with 33 million of our friends and neighbors unemployed. the underlying problem has

changed very little. when you take new york city out of the equation, case across the country are still on the rise. the country had its first back to back days of testing 300,000 people. but experts from harvard say we need at least three times that every single day. while neiman marcus fights to emerge from bankruptcy protection by fall, apple will reopen a handful of stores and michigan has gotten clearance to reopen car factories, but most of them won't start doing that until may the 18th. and still, the market's bull run is ascended, showing its disconnect from the broader economy. as the front page of "the new york times" shows just how dramatic the drop in unemployment has been, the worst jobs numbers since the great depression, and the warning from a white house that has so long touted economic accomplishment is dire. >> my numbers aren't rosy. >> may or june would be the low point for unemployment, at what rate? >> that's about what we expect,

yeah. you know, i'm looking for rates north of 20 sadly. >> aren't we talking close to 25% at this point, which is great depression neighborhood? >> chris, we could be. it wouldn't be a surprise if you close down the economy that half of the work force is half the people didn't work. that's why we're very focused on rebuilding this economy and getting it back to where it was. >> and today the president is celebrating reopening the country, including his golf club. joining me now is the former acting administrator for the centers for medicare and medicaid services during the obama administration, andy slavit. sir, thank you very much for coming back on the program. it's always great to have you. i want to start with that tweet we just showed our viewers, which is the president celebrating the reopening of one of his golf courses. and just put the simple question to you, those trend lines outside of new york suggest that the policy that at least so far health officials have been

saying that we should be following with a line like that is to continue to stay home. in your view, what is the right balance here between those health policy guidelines and trying to figure out how to get people back to work? >> well, thanks for having me on, and happy mother's day. >> thank you. >> look, the white house released a plan close to four weeks ago on how to open up the economy. and in that plan they laid out some steps that would need to be taken. you referred to a couple of they have. they include making sure we have adequate testing and contact tracing. same kind of testing we're doing in the white house, we need to be able to do around the country. with that i think we'll be able to open up the economy gradually, step-by-step. you know, nobody wants to see a economy like we're seeing. i mean, that's a horrible situation. but the truth is we're not choosing between a better public health outcome and better economic outcome. they are really linked together.

the economy comes back when people start spending money again. they start buying cars, they start signing leases, businesses start hiring. that doesn't happen when you have death tolls rising, death tolls of 2,000 people a day and cases continue to climb as you showed. we have to execute our plan. as we execute our plan and public health gets better, people feel safe and the economy starts to get better. >> there were reports this week that the trump administration has basically quashed or limited the release of a set of cdc guidelines for reopening. there's been some reporting that this was because perhaps they were too stringent in their recommendations for reopening the economy. what sort of advice should governors, mayors, state public health officials be using to figure out how to strike this balance if they're not going to get it from the cdc?

>> well, i'm a little bit afraid that the cdc is getting put in the same bucket that trump put the epa, which is these are scientist who are out to get in the way of his agenda, hurt his economic prospects for the country, thereby hurting his political prospects. the people in the cdc are a lot of things, they're not perfect, but they're absolutely the best physician to give advice to the public. if we don't take that advice, i think we have to assume it's getting overrun for political reasons or someone else thinks they know better and that's not being explained very well. i think for the average american, ingliseni think liste your local health commissioner, state health commissioner, most of them are quite good. you can still see the cdc guidelines, pay attention to what anthony fauci says, deborah birx says.

protect your family. just because politicians say we can open up doesn't mean that we necessarily have to go do those things. and we should still be cautious because the virus hasn't gone anywhere. >> where do we stand? on that very question, i mean, how do you get to the point where people do feel safe or they feel confident that they know the people around them are being tested, that if they feel they've been in a difficult situation, they get tested? it seems to rely on, again, the ubiquit of testing. is that the case? and where do you think we are on that testing question? >> i think that's right. what testing does is testing allows us to feel comfortable and feel safe. contact tracing allows us to make sure if we do get a positive test, that we'll be able to make sure that we encloses the spread so only the people we contact make sure they get tested. that way there will be small

outbreaks. remember, we're not trying to eliminate covid-19 in the short term. scientists are working on that day and night. that's great news. we want to prevent a big bonfire again from happening. we want to keep these small almost little camp fires that can be surrounded, be identified. we want to keep them away from nursing homes, places like that. if we do that, we'll have a much greater opportunity. to your question of how we're doing on testing, we're doing better. we're not there yet, but we're getting better every week. there was an exciting new tessa prove test approved. if it is deployed community by community, we will soon be able to start to open up again. but i would say before then, we really are taking quite a big gamble. >> yeah, and, of course, still so far to go and concerns about whether people can get back on planes and start to travel and what that will mean. of course, for this entire project trying to trace

contacts. andy slavit, thank you as always for your wisdom and insitghts. thank you for taking the time to join us. joining me now is adam schiff, house intelligence committee chair. >> thank you for having me. happy mother's day to you. >> thank you. let's start with the 80,000 americans dead from coronavirus and the state of affairs policy wise, testing wise. where do you think we are as a country in our fight against this virus? >> well, look, we've been through an awful lot, but there are hard days ahead. there will be fewer hard days ahead, though, if we listen to the advice of the health experts. if we don't push to reopen prematurely in places where the virus is still climbing, not receding, if we have the testing capacity up and running, if we have the tracing capacity. if we do this smart, we will buy

ourselves time to develop effective therapies. and the good news is there are lots and lots of clinical trials and therapies going on right now. if people can avoid getting the virus until there is an effective therapy, it means that those death totals won't keep on going up through the roof. part of this is within our control. i'm very concerned that the president is pushing the country to reopen against the advice of his own health care experts. he's doing so because he thinks it's a political -- for his reelection. that's a lousy reason to take a gamble with american lives. >> let me ask you about some comments, speaking of the president, his trade advisor peter navarro made this morning. he was on fox business with maria bartiromo. let's watch what he said and i'll ask you about it on the other side. >> we know that ground zero had

the p-4 weapons lab where the virus likely came from for the next two months. we know china hid the virus from the world behind the shield of the world health organization. this morning americans won't go to church because of the china virus. sons and daughters of america won't be taking their mothers to brunch. tomorrow 33 million americans won't be going to work and millions of children in america will be at home climbing the walls instead of learning, reading, writing and arithmetic. >> i want to zero in on the first thing he said. ground zero had a p-4 weapons lab where the virus likely came from. that was the framing he used. again, a white house official. does what you know about the origins of this virus lineup with that comment he just made there? >> no, it doesn't. it doesn't lineup with the president saying he has high confidence the virus came from the lab. you've seen interestingly the

secretary of state now walk back his earlier comments that there was enormous evidence that the virus came from the lab. i think this is people falling in line behind a narrative the president wants to tell whether it's consistent with the truth of the evidence really doesn't matter to the president and for the microsoft part it doesn't matter to those in the service of the president. look, china wasn't transparent about human-to-human transmission. that's enough of a responsibility and a black mark on china for not being truthful with the rest of the world. but apparently that's not enough for the trump administration. they want to push out this lab theory because they think it does them political good. but the president can't ignore the fact that he was saying in the early weeks of this virus he was applauding china's transparency, when he knew or should have known that china was not being transparent about human-to-human transmission. he was saying the virus was going to go away on its own when

he knew or should have known it wasn't going away. his own health care people were telling him it wasn't going away. so there's no deflecting from responsibility no matter how much they bash china. china deserves responsibility for not being transparent, but the president has to take responsibility for these staggering death totals in our country. that's his job. the buck stops with him, and there's no denying how long he wasted in the u.s. response. >> well, certainly the estimates that he's been offering, death tolls have been rising over time. mr. chair man, i want to switch gears and ask you about mike flynn and the transcripts released during your investigation into russian-related matters. but let's start with flynn. the justice department, of course, dropping its case against him and vice-president mike pence's tune has really changed on mr. flynn.

would remind all our viewers originally he lied to the vice-president, mike pence, when he was the national security advisor. let's watch then and the now and we'll talk about it. watch. >> when he was fired, did you know he had lied to you? >> what i can tell you is i knew he lied to me. and i know the president made the right decision with regard to him. >> bringing back into the administration, is that fine with you? >> i think general michael flynn is an american patriot, and he served this country with great distinction in uniform, and now i believe the decision by the justice department lays bare what was, what was clearly property cu prosecutorial abuse. >> a pretty remarkable switch from the vice-president, and, of course, former president barack

obama weighing in on the flynn matter broadly saying this is the kind of stuff where you get worried the basic not just institutional norms, but understanding of rule of law is at risk. what's your reaction to the vice-president's change of tune that we just showed right there? >> well, you know, it's pathetic, not surprising, but pathetic, the degree to which the vice-president will mimic anything the president says. apparently it's not the vice-president's view a national security advisor that lies to him about contacts he's having with the russians, that's perfectly fine, happy to have him around. let's not forget what the lies were about. the russians interfered in our election in 2016 to help elect donald trump. and shortly thereafter, barack obama imposed sanctions on the russians for interfering in our democracy. and then mike flynn has a conversation with the russians and reportedly told the russians, don't react to these sanctions. implication being, we're going to make this problem go away.

after all, we know the russians helped elect donald trump, and this is what he lied about. he lied about those conversations with the russians that were meant to undermine the sanctions imposed on their interference in our democracy. bill barr says those lies just don't matter. that's breath taking. now, they couldn't say he didn't lie because he pled guilty repeatedly. he also said in his plea these were materialize, and so far now bill barr to do the president's bidding for mike pence to echo the president's attempt to rewrite history is a full-scale assault on the rule of law. and so discouraging for this former justice department, former usa. >> so, one question that i do have for you more broadly, and it relates to the flynn matter. but these transcripts that were released this week, we had some

threats from the dni's office to put them out there if the committee wasn't going to come out and release them as well. now the president's allies are essentially saying that the transcripts prove that you overstated the case of collusion in your role as chairman of the committee during this investigation. how do you respond to those criticisms? >> well, first of all, just so people know the time line, the white house sat on these transcripts for about a year, refused to allow the final transcripts to be declassified so we could release them. that happened only this week and we released them within days of that. so they sat on these i think until they believed they would be stale. but what those transcripts reveal is -- much of this is known now through the mueller report. but what they reveal is the russian approached the trump campaign. they did so in writing. they offered dirt they had on hillary clinton as part of what they described as a russian

government effort to help the trump campaign, and at the highest levels the trump campaign said, yes, we'll take it, we love it. don junior set up a secret meeting at the trump tower to get the dirt. the son-in-law was there, the campaign chairman was there. what's more, the campaign chair plan had a different vignette gave internal polling data to someone related to russian intelligence. he had other people like roger stone involved with the publishing of the material on hillary clinton through wikileaks. all of this is abundance evidence of collusion. this is their attempt to gaslight america. saying you can't believe your eyes, you can't believe what's written in the transcripts. you have to accept our counter narrative. but the evidence is there for all to see. 99 >> indeed those transcripts are now publicly available for anyone who wants to go and sift

through them. adam schiff, chair of the intelligence committee, thank you very much for being on the show. when we continue, breaking news out of georgia. the state's attorney general requests a justice department investigation into the handling of the ahmaud arbery case. reverend al sharpton will join me on that. first they buried cdc guidelines on how to reopen the country. [man] uh, mine. why? it's just that it's... lavender, yes it is. old spice, it's for men. but i like the smell of it. [music playing] motor? nope. not motor? it's pronounced "motaur."

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this week, a number of stories reinforce an image of an administration obscuring guidance coming from inside its own government. former h.h.s. official dr. rick bright filed a whistle-blower complaint claiming he was removed from his post after pushing back against covid-19 treatments touted by the president. >> i have been directed to take me out of the organization focused on drugs and vaccines and diagnostics in the middle of a pandemic. the worst public health crisis that our country has faced in a century and dee capitate the barta organization to move me over to a very small focused project of any scale, of any level of importance is not responsible. >> this comes amid a report that top white house officials buried detailed advice from the cdc regarding the reopening of the country. joining me now, former u.s.

surgeon general, the author of a new book that is especially timely. titled "together: the healing power of human connection in a sometimes lonely world." i would say we have now found ourselves in a very lonely world. dr. murthy, thank you for being here tonight. let's just start there with this cdc guidance that we've been talking about through the end of this week that was, in theory, aimed at giving governors and mayors a guideline of sorts from our public health officials for when it might be safe to reopen. the white house not letting those guidelines get out there. why do you think that is, and what kind of message does it send? >> well, thanks, kasie. it's good to be with you and happy mother's day to you and all the moms out there. you know -- thanks. the news about this guidance, the cdc being potentially

squashed was very disturbing. disturbing on a few levels. i'll tell you in the last week i have been on the phone with universities, with companies, with the leaders of nonprofit organizations who are all struggling to figure out how to reopen safely. the questions around what kind of testing they should do, where they should procure the tests. they want to know what other measures they should be taking including temperature checks and symptoms checks. they want to know when it's safe to get back, but also how it's safe to reopen and they need guidance. and they're looking around and they're finding they're not getting that kind of guidance from the government. the prospect the cdc would put out specific guidelines was a ri leaf to so many people. but to see it squashed i think has once again struck fear into people's hearts we're going to see a haphazard open, that's already begun in the last few days. but if it continues as states and institutions are left to figure this all out on their own, unfortunately i fear we're going to see a unsafe opening, which will mean more cases, more

deaths and unnecessary suffering. >> let's talk for a second about dr. bright who we saw in the intro, just kind of as another piece of how the trump administration is handling this pandemic. he complained about, quote, pressure from h.h.s. leadership to ignore scientific merit and expert recommendations and instead to award lucrative contracts based on political connections and cronyism. can you just kind of give us a sense for americans who maybe don't understand where parta, the organization he was leading fits in our infrastructure, how important it is and what your reaction is to the fact that these are his allegations? >> well, barta is a very important entity. while it may not be household lingo for most people, i would understand why. all you need to know is it is an essential piece of the vaccine development efforts. and without barta, without

strong leadership at barta, that really puts us in a bad place when it comes to making sure all levels of government are working together to get a vaccine as quickly as possible. you know t his concerns about -- and the complaints that he raised i think are deeply concerning for the following reason. in pandemics like this, you have to lead with science and with scientists. you can't allow politics and personal interests interfere with what has to be a very swift, accurate and timely response. and what we're seeing here, unfortunately, is that the response has been less than swift. if we had acted earlier, if we had been more coordinated in getting testing widely available, if we had built up the contact tracing infrastructure we desperately need but are woefully behind in developing, then we would be in a better position to not only open up safely and save lives, but also to revive our economy. the truth is the key to strengthening the economy and

saving lives is actually the same. it's ensuring that our pandemic response is robust, that we have testing and accurate guidance in place. if we're not leading with science, people ultimately are going to lose. this has been a core tenet in republican and democratic administrations. it's concerning to see it being repeatedly thwarted here. >> one of the impacts is people are going longer and longer without seeing their friends and family members as we grapple with this. i want to ask you about this book that you were working on before any of this unfolded. obviously this is something we're dealing with in our lives before the pandemic, but it's even more acute now. i know i would have really like to have spent mother's day with my own mom, with my son's first mother's day. that's something that's really hit home for us. tell us a little bit about the book, what your message is to americans on this front, what you learned, and how they can try and tackle and grapple with

this in their own lives. >> yeah, well, thanks, kasie. long before the pandemic was afoot, i was starting to see that we had a much deeper problem with social disconnection than with loneliness in our country and around the world than i had realized. in my own personal lives, i had struggles with loneliness as a child. as a doctor i see loneliness with my patients. as a surgeon general i saw across america people were struggling with loneliness. whether they were in the halls of congress or farmers in the midwest, people raidsing their children. this is not about feeling, but social disconnection, in fact, has consequence for our health, putting us at risk for chronic illnesses like heart disease and putting us at risk of premature death. in a time like this with covid-19 with our physical distance is being increased and loneliness is a greater risk, i think we have to recognize we can go at it two directions.

we can allow our loneliness to deepen causing what i think of as a social recession, or we can go the opposite way and use this moment to intentionally strengthen our relationships with others, to lean into our human connections by prioritizing time with people, by improving the quality of time we spend with others. i recognize by serving others, that turns out to be a powerful way to forge connections and strengthen old ones. i laid it out in the book. i believe this is an opportunity as a nation and world to have revival, stronger connections and communities. if we do that we'll be healthier, more resilient and more fulfilled. >> dr. vivek murthy, thank you for your time. the book is "together: healing power in a sometimes lonely world." when we continue, georgia's general requests a investigation into the handling of the ahmaud arbery case. (vo) at farmers we've seen a thing or two.

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and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. a new development tonight in the case of ahmaud arbery, the 25-year-old shot dead in georgia in february. georgia attorney general chris carr is now calling for a

justice department investigation into the handling of the case. writing in a statement, quote, we are committed to a complete and transparents review of how the ahmaud arbery case was handled from the outset. the family, the community and the state of georgia deserve answers and we will work with others in law enforcement at the state and federal level to find those answers. arbery's family says he was out for a jog in brunswick, georgia, unarmed, when two men in a pickup truck approached him. according to the police report, former officer gregory mcmichael and his son travis said he resembled a former suspect. they shot him in self-defense after he attacked and grabbed his gun. joining me is host of politics nation reverend al sharpton and editor at large, erin haines. it's great to have both of you on tonight. rev, let me start with you and the new development of this request for a justice department investigation. is this enough, is it a good

step? how would you characterize this development in terms of the fight for justice for this young man and his family? >> well, i would first raise that lee merritt, the attorney, one of the attorneys for the families, had called for the intervention of a special prosecutor or the justice department a couple of weeks ago when we in national action network got involved. the question is will the justice department commit the resources and the commitment to come in and do it, it could be a good thing. the problem with this case, kasie, has been that this young man was killed february 23rd, and the local authorities who apparently had a videotape that has gone public just this week, never moved forward when that tape clearly, by all of the legal experts that i've spoken with, said there was more than probable cause on that tape to have led to an arrest. an arrest does not mean an

indictment or conviction, but there's probable cause. so there is little confidence in the local authorities that sat there with evidence and did nothing for two months. and here we are now. it took a tape to really get the kind of reaction that we should have seen immediately after this young man was killed. >> erin, it's to the point even ivanka trump is making this point. in a tweet, she said were the arrest of two suspects in the shooting of ahmaud arbery is a step to justice. the question is why it took months with the release of video and corresponding public outrage to catalyze action. she went a little further, it seems, than her father the president who called it troubling but raised questions about what isn't in the frame of the video. i mean, there has been pretty universal condemnation of the fact that nothing happened until all of a sudden the public saw this video and then these arrests took place.

>> yes, kasie, you're right. and you see that ivanka trump was retweeting governor brian kemp who has also weighed in on this case saying that something needs to be done, and that is certainly not always something that you hear from local officials either. listen, i think, though, that what we see here is unfortunately the latest in a long pattern of how cases are handled, things move slowly until public outrage, proof in the form of a video surfaces, and then action is taken in these places where prior to the black lives matter movement, these would have been local issues that maybe would have never reached the national spotlight. but because there has been such an outcry far beyond brunswick, georgia, we now see that action is being taken and a rare call for a justice department inquiry, that's not something we've seen in a lot of these

cases in the past four years, that was something that did happen, you know, in the obama/biden era, that the justice department would be brought in to look at these cases, to look at, you know, what was going on. and so that's happening now, it's a rarity for this era. certainly a welcome development for a lot of people that are having scrutiny with how it was handled locally. >> rev, what's your thoughts on how this caught the attention of, tof ivanka trump, the president's daughter, and trump saying this is troubling? do you think the justice department will get involved here? >> again, we must scrutinize and monitor what the justice department does. does the attorney general, william barr, commit the resources that is going to be necessary to really investigate it? and what will be the scope of

the investigation? i had the mother on my radio show this morning and she talked about how she was first told that her son was killed because of some breaking and entry. he was at the scene of some breaking and entry in some property, which is completely now been debunked. are we going to investigate why the prosecutors and police were going on misinformation? was it because one of the assailants had been a 30-year police or law enforcement person? we need to know why that tape was not used for two months while they were sitting on it. there needs to be a wide investigation on the prosecutor's office, on law enforcement who decided not to operate on probable cause, as well as the incident itself. let's remember, kasie, georgia does not have a hate crimes law. the federal government does. they can come in and deal with violation of civil rights. they can deal with hate crime.

and they can investigate how it was handled by the prosecutors and local law enforcement. if they're going with that, i think that it's good. i'm happy to see ivanka say a tape that president trump should say. we'll deal with -- we'll settle for one trump tonight, but the real trump that should have been leading the charge in that is the president, not his daughter. >> and, kasie, i would just add -- >> thank you, reverend al sharpton. >> the ivanka trump thing, i'd be remiss on mother's day if we didn't point out that ahmaud arbery's mother is marking this day without her son who would have been 26 years old on friday. >> a very important point. our hearts go out to her. and reverend al sharpton, we should point out you are working on this and highlighting this before this video even came to light. so that, of course, very important work here. reverend al sharpton, erin haines, we'll see you in a bit. thank you very much both for this.

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welcome back. this weekend we learned every california voter will get a mail-in ballot come november. but on tuesday we are watching a swing district special election very closely. it's for california's 25th district which has been vacant since the resignation of katie hill last year. somewhat controversially. president trump has tweeted half a dozen times while endorsing mike garcia, the republican candidate. joining me is the democratic candidate and current state assembly woman christy smith. assembly woman, thank you so much for coming on the program tonight. the first thing i have to ask you to do is respond to the president who sent several tweets about you and this election over the weekend,

including making accusations that you and, quote, liberal dem allies didn't say anything for weeks even though polling places were in full view of the public. after every voter received a ballot they tried to change the rules to steal an election. we can't let them succeed. he is, of course, talking about opening in-person polling places. what's your response to president trump? >> well, thank you, kasie, for having me on. i'd like to respond on two levels. first of all, as i thought since the beginning of his administration, the president really has much more important things to do than be spending his time on twitter. and right now that includes important measures to dr. murthy's point about setting up national testing paradigm and public health infrastructure so we can continue to deal with the covid crisis as well as having a very tangible and meaningful plan of what this economic recovery should look like. but instead he's chosen to wade into this race and into this really important issue of voting

rights and voting access. here's the thing. it was a republican mayor in the city where this new vote center is going to be located as well as the kocongressional black caucus and democratic party involved in thating these steps to ensure this one important minority majority community was not left out to access to vote on may 12th. here in california, we take the expanse of the franchise really seriously. i was glad to see this bipa bipartisan effort to ensure this community would have that opportunity. >> certainly, it drew the attention of a pretty high profile level. i will say, though, you've had a couple tough headlines unrelated to president trump this week. politico writing, democrats are on the verge of the unthinkable losing a swing district in california. the suggestion being you were not in as strong of a place as

democrats would like. there is a rematch come november. why do you think it is that this race is so close and it's possible you may not come out on top on tuesday? >> well, the reality is special elections for democrats has always been trying to figure out what motivates our voters to vote as consistently and as early as republican voters do. and that you know as soon as any one of us solves that, we will be the consultant to have in the whole political sphere on the democratic side when it comes to special elections. however, i would say the overcarching factor is what my community is doing in the midst of this covid crisis. we are a community home to the headquarters of a cruise line. we have an amoussement park. we have a lot of restaurants and retail and entertainment. so my district has been hit very, very hard by the job loss and this crisis. when you are talking about people having to maca decision right now between focusing on an election or figuring out, getting on the unemployment roster or figuring out how the

next rent bill is going to be paid, you know those are things that are hard to overcome in a moment of an election and certainly when we're reaching out to our voters, we want to ensure first and foremost are they connected with all the resources they need in this moment to stay healthy, whole and take care of their families. secondly, we're moving onto the electoral piece of that we are cognizant of a unique moment we are in. we are not taking anything for granted. we are running a robust campaign. if we're not successful, we're hopeful about the results for tuesday, though. >> all right. christy smith. we'll be watching the race tuesday and possibly a rematch again in november. and happy mother's day to you. thanks for coming onto the program. >> happy mother's day to you. thank you. >> thank you. the president has made a lot of bold claims that have tested the limits of executive authority. here's the one about stopping all immigration during a pandemic. there is the one about forcing

states to open under police powers. the chief among them is whether he has temporary absolute immunity. we will get greater insight on tuesday when the supreme court hears arguments over who can see a president's tax returns. joining me now is justice correspondent pete williams. pete, it's always great to have you on the show. can you explain to us what is at stake on tuesday in these arguments? what are they owe owe we're talking about the president's tax returns and the various court cases forever. why are these arguments critical? >> well, because this is going to be the final answer. there are two cases here. one is the request for tax returns from the district attorney in new york who wants to look at them to see whether there was any involvement improper by the president or those people around him when he was still a candidate for the illegal hush money payments that were made. and they are requested in the form of a grand jury subpoena. now, what the president's lawyers are saying here is that a president is absolutely immune

from any part of the criminal justice process. it's long been said by just about every justice department that a president can't be indicted in office. but this is a question about whether a president is completely immune from a isn' subpoena. his lawyers make that argument. they say there is a double problem here because this is a state prosecutor and that is a supremacy case problem. it would be different if it was a federal prosecute. this is a state prosecutor. they say if the supreme court says yes all 23 prosecutors can gang up on the president or any number and make his life miserable and distract him from office. that's the one case. then there is a separate case involving three committees of congress who want a lot of the president's financial records going back several years for himself and his companies. what they say is they want to look at money laundering questions. they want to look at conflict of interest issues. the white house is saying here

that a congressional subpoena power is quite limited and congress can only subpoena when it needs material for legislating. and the president's lawyers say this is a fishing expedition. it's politically motivated. we had been talking about the president's taxes when he was a candidate. they say this is not a legitimate search for congress. it doesn't need that. you have this question of absolute immunity from that kind of subpoena. >> so, a lot at stake on tuesday. while i have you, can i ask you quickly, we've obviously had headlines on ruth bader ginsberg's health, headlines in politico republicans insisting they will fill any vacancy on the court. what kind of alert are you for a potential have a kansvacancy?

>> it's nearly the end of the term. justice ginsberg said she wants to stay on the court until she's 90 she's not near that yet. she's had a number of health scares. think about the past week, she finds out she has a gallstone or she is beginning to feel terrible discomfort. she's on the conference call monday. she's on the conference call tuesday. she finds out she has a gallstone, goes up to john hopki hopkins, they give her anti-ba you, to treat the infection and is on the conference call wednesday. so she is determined not to miss anything. so you know any time with any of the justices when there is health issues, of course, it's something you watch for. it's always a question that hangs over the court for the end of the term. i would be very surprised if any justice willingly steps down. at this point it doesn't look like there is any serious health problem that would prevent justice ginsberg from continuing. >> she's certainly tougher than i am i have to say.

with the gallstones and continuing to work. pete, let us know if you figure out who flushed the toilet when we're back on tv. thank you very much for your reporting tonight. we have much more including a look ahead at what dr. anthony fauci is going to stay on capitol hill when congress grills him this week come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. ibut you're not alone. apart for a bit, n-n-n-no-no we're automatically refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums. learn more at libertymutual.com/covid-19. [ piano playing ]

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news that we have been following out of the white house. a seniored a men sfrags official told nbc news vice president mike pence will take the medical unit and give a little distance for a day or two after an aide tested positive for the coronavirus. now a spokesperson tells us he will be at the white house tomorrow. pence's secretary was among two white house aides to test positive this week. three top members are all self quarantining after their possible exposure. and just in the last hour, nbc news learned that the u.s. navy's chief of operations admiral mike gildat will quarantine for a week after coming in contact with a family member that tested positive, even though he has tested negative, himself. let's go back to white house correspondent kelly o'donnell for the latest there. thanks for sticking around for us. this, of course, now touching the highest levels of our

government. we have been reporting out this story all week about the aides and now this top navy official also self quarantining. this adds up to a lot of nervousness, obviously, americans have been feeling this but now it's inside the west wing, itself. >> reporter: absolutely. and officials here who are working at a high level and staffers who are at a more junior level have expressed it is risky to be in a workplace where there is known coronavirus. we now have two cases inside the white house. and the nature of a lot of offices in the west wing are cramped and close quarters and a lot of the work requires people to be close together making social distancing difficult. in the case of the vice president's press secretary, the nature of her job is to be at the vice president's side to whisper in his ear, to travel with him. lots of ongoing contact and even after that, with a test that turned out positive for katie miller, the vp's press

secretary, the vice president traveled to iowa on friday and then over the weekend, he's laying low, not at the white house yesterday or today and, typically, we often see the vice president here at the white house on saturdays and sundays. so while that might not sound like taking a break, given his recent experience, he has done that i am told no restrictions on his schedule he will be here this week. but he did not attend a national security meeting he was cleared to attend but opted to do that. laying low, not the quarantine or self isolation that's prescribed in some of the public health guidelines. >> kelly o'donnell at the white house. thank you very much for that update. it's always great to have you. >> thank you. joining me now, the washington bureau chief for usa today and editor at large for the 19th erin hanes and national political reporter josh letterman. thank you all for being here. it's great to have you. albeit remotely.

i want to start with something that really struck me this morning on the sunday shows from kevin has et, an economic adviser on "face the nation." here's how he talked about what it's like to show up at the white house every day considering what's been unfolding there as regards coronavirus. watch. >> it is scary to go to work. you know i was not a part of the white house in march. i think i'd be a lot safer if i was sitting at home than going to the west wing. >> susan paige, that's a pretty stark acknowledgement. it's the reality that so many americans are facing, that essential workers are still confronting every day when they show up, obviously, that itself the view of many white house staffers, it is essential that the work of our government continue to go on. but it's hit remarkably close to home at the white house in a way in the last few days that it hadn't before. >>? it's scary for kevin hassett to

go to the white house one of the most secure facilities on the globe, think about how it is for people to go back to the retail shop or the hair salon or to their office building. you know this message to the white house, this concern from the white house and the fact that we now see multiple cases of the coronavirus in the white house for people who work at the white house is at odds with the message the white house is very much trying to set now, it's good for people to resume their normal lives and get the economy going again. this is a mixed message we see coming from the white house these days. >> it's a really, really great point. nick, the idea that you know the white house has been out there pushing that you know they want to reopen, they're pushing jobs over health policy. at least that's the posture that the president wants to put forward. but you know the "post" talked

about the anxiety there. they wrote the nervousness among white house staffers became more palpable on saturday, who like others spoke on condition of anonymity. now with redfield and hahn staying away, some officials say they don't know if they should keep going to work at the white house. this puts things in a phase that is still very much you know stay home, social distance, don't go out. it's so for from, as susan points out, the idea that people are ready to get back out there and participate fully in the economy. >> well, the pandemic is now coming from inside the house. the white house health providing an object lesson in the difficulty of stopping the spread of this virus and the dangers it poses to everyone. a virus can waltz right into one of the heavily -- despite get into in any other circumstance and i think i have a lot of sympathy for people working on

the white house staff right now. the president has made clear he thinks wearing a mask is a sign of weakness. so would you feel comfortable as a white house staffer to walk into a meeting in the white house with a mask on? >> it's really a very, very good point. this week dr. anthony fauci will be among those testifying before congress on the trump administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic. all four witnesses are going to be testifying remotely with three of them in self quarantine. josh, let me go to you. just to help us kind of walk through what we are going to expect from the hearing this week? i mean, life on capitol hill is completely different than what it used to be? >> it sure, casey. and if concerned senators were looking for evidence that things might not be quite as under control as president trump makes it seem, they will look no further than the fact that his own top coronavirus officials

can't go to the senate to testify in person because they, themselves, may have been exposed to coronavirus inside the white house. but that's not the only reason that this hearing this week could get dicey. >> you are darned if you defend him. >> he's been so attentive to the scientific literature and the details of the data. >> i kind of feel sorry for the woman. >> reporter: and darned if you don't. >> if you had a process that was ongoing and you started mitigation earlier, you could have saved lives. >> not everybody is happy with anthony. i retweeted somebody. they said fine. >> reporter: now dr. fauci and top coronavirus officials face a political minefield as they testify before congress this week about the trump administration's coronavirus response. >> i feel sad for him and anybody who has to stand in that task force and practically validate what's coming out of the president's mouth. >> reporter: the white house task force briefings have been awkward enough. fauci and others put on the spot over trump's action and comments

in moments that go viral. >> i'd like to him go back, does anybody have any questions? >> reporter: but now they're under oath facing questions from republican and democratic senators six months before the election. >> frankly, the democrats should be ashamed. because they don't want us to succeed. they want us to fail so they can win an election. >> reporter: testifying during an ongoing crisis is never easy. former homeland security secretary jay johnson had to do it in the middle of ebola. >> the senators come out and proceed with their political agendas oto grill you, be angry at you. five minutes before they were cordial asking about your family. i think if you are fauci, in particular, who's got a tremendous amount of good will and political capital built up, his default should be tell the truth. >> reporter: the last time dr. fauci testified he sound an alarm of widespread failing, calming it a failing. >> we're not set up for that. do i think we should be?

yes. but we're not. >> reporter: this time they allowed fauci to testify before the republican controlled senate not the democrat controlled house. >> we don't have time in the middle of a pandemic for publicity stunts. it's not the time for that. >> reporter: fauci and the other witnesses won't be the only ones participating repeatly. a number of senators are expected to tune in via video. unlike most hearings, there will be no visitors allowed to watch in person. >> yeah, it's been a pretty extraordinary scene day in day out on the hill. susan paige, you have covered so many of these in your long career. i've attended so many historic hearings over time. i mean, this one is one for the ages, but it's going to be so by czar. -- bizarre. i don't recall there being a circumstance remotely like this ever. just the technology and all of it. as josh also points out, the steaks couldn't be higher for

these medical professionals in this hearing this week. >> you know, the format is going to be odd. not something we are accustomed to. although, we are getting more used to using zoom. but the other thing that is going to be remarkable is it's been a while since we've had a health-based briefing from the white house. a briefing by dr. fauci, for instance, who had been out there almost every day for weeks and weeks. and people have a lot of questions. he has a lot of credibility as jay johnson was saying. credibility with republicans and democrats, credibility with american who's are concerned about what's going on. are we ready not just to deal with this first wave as terrible as it's been, but all this talk about the second wave in the fall. so i think there will be huge curiosity and how candid he will be in that forum. >> yeah. erin hayes, to that very point, the audience for these medical officials is likely to be bigger

than many audiences that normally tune in for something like this. people looking, as susan suggests, for some sort of reassurance, for some sort of guidance in terms of what to do in their own lives. we know this has affected communities of color, much more intensibly than many other communities. what do you think americans out there are hoping to hear from these officials on tuesday? >> well, you know, i think are you exactly right. you've got millions of americans now as the country is reopening who are making that choice between putting food on the table and putting themselves at risk by going back into a workplace. and others have said here, you know, the white house some in the white house are now sharing the same concerns of millions of americans who are wondering if it is safe to go back to work in an officer where we still know that the country is still not testing nearly enough people for us to understand kind of what

exactly the situation is in terms of this pandemic from a public health crisis. you know, the economic questions for folks is also something that's going to come back into focus i think especially as we shift back to the congress, you know, issue the child care and education, especially for working moms. i have to mention that on mother's day. these are things that we have to be thinking ability and grappling with as folks try to figure out not only is it safe to go back to work but also the logistics for how that happens. >> right. are they able to, if they don't have child care. nick, can we button this up? if you are anthony fauci, how do you what you can that line? i mean how do you tell the truth, answer questions from democrats as well as republicans without saying something that gets you crosswise with the boss and lands you, you know, out of a job? >> well, fauci has shown technique or a willingness or an

ability to kind of straddle that line in some of these press briefings. he is homey. he takes responsibility, himself. he acknowledges problems but kind of waves it away from something from the pennsylvania. he wants to look towards the future. but the question, is there are now real life questions about the preparedness plan for this country. it's obviously inside hss and fema, there are people work on plans, clear metrics for how many masks and hospital beds and gloves and gowns you need to open in certain stages for the country and he is going to be asked about those and why we haven't seen them and why the white house has pushed them back. >> all right. susan paige, nick, erin haips, josh letterman, thank you all for kicking that you have hour with us. it's great to see you. when we continue, bankruptcies are already on the rise across america as we contemplate what the economy will look like at the end of the

year. a proposal to keep americans paid by circumventing ppp. plus, congressman jason crow to create a health force to get millions back to work and treateding the sick. we are back after this. pray p a new moment in wireless has begun. t-mobile and sprint are joining forces. by bringing together our two networks, t-mobile will build america's largest and most reliable 5g network...

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. the unemployment rate is on the precipice of 15%. but some believe that the real number is likely already up in the 20s. the at leisure and hospitality industries have been hard hit, manufacturing have felt severe impacts. unemployment rates rose sharply among all demographics. the hispanic and black communities were impacted the most. now members of congress are trying to find more solutions helping those struggling to make ends meet. joining me are two lawmakers. pramila jayapal.

thank you both for being here. i know you have ideas putting forward for whatever the next piece of the coronavirus legislation is going to be. so congresswoman, let me start with you. you have proposed an alternative to the ppp loan program. walk us through what we should be doing differently along these lines. i am also interested in your assessment whether something big can move quickly or whether we are going to take a longer pause like some republicans are advocating? >> yeah, thanks so much, it's great to be with you and my colleague jason crow. i am proposing a paycheck guarantee act or a paycheck recoverying a. whatever you want to call it. and the basic premise of this is to stop mass unemployment. when we look at these mass unemployment numbers that you just put up there and recognize that we're probably closer to 22 to 25% mass unemployment

already, you recognize that this the a stunning situation. and whatever we propose has to meet the scale of the crisis. what better way to make sure that we actually put paychecks in people's pockets and to make sure business versus what they need to weather the crisis than to have the federal government through the irs direct money in the form of grants, not loans, not forgivable loans or loans that might be forgiven but grants that cover paychecks and benefits. which means people can keep their healthcare. otherwise we know already 13 million people have lost their healthcare and we're projecting that 35 million people will lose their healthcare within they lose their job. so my paycheck guarantee act would put a grant amount that would go directly to the business to keep workers on pay rom, continue their benefits and provide an operating maintenance

cost to businesses so that they can weather the crisis and get through this. >> and congressman crow, your efforts have focused more on contact tracing and the public health work force. walk us through some of the things that you think the government needs to be doing on this front to ensure we have the people in place that we need to actually trace the contacts and deal with this crisis on the front lines? zblmp go . >> good to be with you. good to see my friend albeit virtually. the bottom line here is while we are addressing the economic crisis we have to look at the long-term component of the crisis we are facing. scientists, researchers are telling us they don't know to make a vaccine. it could be one year, three years. we could get back to 70-to-80% to normal if we build out the ppp pipeline and the testing kit and we need a massive surge of

healthcare workers to actually conduct that testing, conduct that contact tracing. it's a very laborious process. we will need hundreds of thousands of new young men and women to enter our work force in the next couple of months to do that work. if we don't, it will be very hard to do the testing and the vaccinations when a vaccine eventually becomes available. we are doing a couple of things. we have a proposal to empower the cdc to have grants and enter into contracts with local states and providers and on board these young men and women. we had a million men and women lose their jobs in the healthcare system because of this crisis. we have healthcare forces out there. we've had thousands of people from the peace core who then returned home. we have millions of people actually looking for jobs and laid off and furloughed. so the four that's available, we have to have leadership at the federal level that will empower the cdc onboard these people,

train them, connect them with local healthcare agencies and start doing this work. >> congressman, have you gotten any indication from speaker pelosi as to whether this is something she'd be willing or more interested in putting in an upcoming package? and can you update us on what you know about whether the speaker is going to move forward with her own package, where the negotiations stand with the white house? and whether you think there is going to be another major bill that can move quickly through congress? >> well, i have been advocating very hard for all elements of this, for the ppp expansion, for very bold and innovative proposals like myjayapamls on insurance and also proposals like the health force and the defense production act. so we have been fighting hard and advocating for it. i can't speak for the speaker in leadership and the ultimate

proposal is going to be. but what i do think is now is the time for bold action. i think it's time for the american people to see what our caucus and what the democrats are willing to do to lead. either he thinks small. we think reactive. we deal with this a week at a time, in which case we could find ourselves in a ten-year recovery or we are bold and we push hard. we deal with this in the aggressive way it deserves. you know you talk to people that dealt with the great recession in 2008 and 2009 in the obama administration. across the board they said they had wished they had acted faster and bicker. and if they had, they don't think it would have taken ten years to wholly recover from that i think that's what we need to do. >> interesting point. congresswoman jayapal. how concerned are you about the house being able to operate in a remote way? do you think it's safe for members of congress to come back to washington at this stage?

or do you think that continuing to work from your districts and only returning as congressman crow said to vote is the better way to go? where do those efforts stand? and what is your view? >> well, i think we have to, absolutely have to put in place a way to do our work remotely. we are seeing the consequences of this health crisis in the white house with the possible quarantine you know with the quarantining and possible infection of a number of people there. but this is what i'm hearing from my constituents, every single day. and i think that job number one has to be, to beat the virus. but if we are going to beat the virus, then we need to figure out not only ways for us and congress to work remotely, but ways for the american people to be able to stay home. and in order to do that, we actually have to address the economic issues and the economic pressures that people are feeling, you know, in my district, we've gone three months now without a paycheck.

many people have still not received a stimulus check. many people have still not received a ppp loan so that is why i am saying and my colleague jason crow said it perfectly, we have to go, you know we have to go big but we have to be strategic. what are the ways in which we can take this situation that we're in and recognize that coming out of the great depression, there was an enormous amount of money that was spent because this was unprecedented. we have not seen unemployment levels like there senince the great depression. the majority of the burden is falling on low-income folks that are on the front lines that don't have the program my colleague is talking about. safety, ppp, contact tracing all of that in place or they are sitting at home and feeling forced to go back to work because they don't have a paycheck. and so that's why i think it's very, very important for us to pass, you know, things, frankly,

that many other countries have already done. they have the equivalence of the defense production acts, where they're manufacturing in their home country so they're not competing on a global stage. they are in place guarantee pay collection in europe, singapore, malaysia, south korea. they have all taken up this idea, because it is much better for us to keep people tied to their jobs than to send them into unemployment insurance, which i'm very proud of what we did to expand unemployment insurance. but we need to give workers a certainty, not only that they'll have money in their pockets to pay their rent, mortgage, stimulate consumer demand, also that they will have a job and you put up statistics around you know latinos and blacks and black americans and others, who are disproportionately burdened. here's the thing, once we send people into the unemployment system, we know that those workers often face a lot of discrimination coming back.

so let's keep them in their jobs. let's do the things that my colleague and i are talking about. let's really take this crisis seriously. >> all right. congresswoman pramila jayapal, happy mother's day to you. coming up, president obama sounds off on the trump administration pandemic response in a conference call with former staffers. robert gibbs spoke to fellow alumni. he is architect dravid plopp come up next on kasie d.c.. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist. nothing stronger. nothing gentler. nothing lasts longer. flonase sensimist. 24 hour non-drowsy allergy relief

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since endorsing joe biden back in april, we haven't heard too much from former president obama. but in a conference call with former members of his administration yesterday, obama unloaded on the trump administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic. >> it would have been bad even with the best of governments. it has been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset -- of "what's in it for me" and "the heck with everybody else in the -- when that mindset is operationalized in our government. so that's why, i, by the way, am

going to be spending as much time as necessary and campaigning as hard as i can for joe biden. >> joining me now, former white house press secretary during the obama administration robert gibbs and former obama manager david propp. gentleman it's always great to have you on the show, robert, let me start with you. were you surprised that president obama weighed in this way. he's been pretty careful in how he has made decisions to wade into politics, obviously, during the primary that had a particularly thorny set of dynamics. even when it comes to president trump, he's been pretty careful. this was a pretty sharp and direct statement that he made about how the trump administration is handling this. >> it's not been something that he's done a lot of. i think it shows you a couple

things. one, this is a serious issue. it's the most serious issue we faced as a country since world war ii. i this i the president is as disgusted as upwards as 70% of the american people are in believing the trump administration and president trump didn't do enough, didn't do enough quickly enough to get us ready. haven't made the right decisions now that we are in the midst of this pandemic and, quite frankly, continue to make bad decisions. so i think what you saw from president obama was a manifestation of the frustration that i think, quite frankly, tense of millions of people throughout this country are feeling each and every day watch whack is happening and understanding, kasie, it just didn't have to be this way. it didn't have to be this way. but because this administration has made so many terrible decisions, we are where we are. >> and, robert, let me stick with you for a second. i mean the president has, obviously, been comparing the way he has handled this with the way that the obama

administration handled, in particular, recently the h1n1 swine flew among other things. can you take us behind the obama administration in the way you all dealt with challenges, there were several of a public health nature, ebola among them that's different than what you are seeing from this administration? >> i think the chief difference particularly between h 1 n '01. i watched the other briefing on youtube where we declared a national emergency. we did it in the briefing room on a sunday, that was surprise. that was a press conference led not by the president or the vice president, but by scientists and scientific professionals. right. the head of the cdc, the briefings were done at the cdc. the decision making was led by people that knew what they were doing in a pandemic response. not by political operatives sitting inside of a white house and that i think is key. i think that is one of the

biggest differences the president certainly reacted. i was asked questions at the podium around h1n1 and answered them. but the bulk of the information. the decision making rested in the centers for disease control, where frankly it should all rest. if you look at what's happening now, we had the preeminent public health facility. the preeminent public health group in the world in the centers for disease control. and they can't even get out basic guidance to help people open up businesses, to open up day care centers, to open up restaurants. it's just amazing to have such a crown jewel of public health and not even use it in the midst of a global pandemic. >> david, let me turn to you as we look ahead to the election here. and you no at the point that robert is making about the cdc in the way that the potentially public health officials could

take the lead this president has clearly viewed every decision that he's made through the lens of his own re-election chances? our colleagues and friends at the washington post, "new york times" and here at nbc news have walked through a lot of instances where it was very clear that that was the case. what is your take on where that stands today? i mean, if are you the president and you are running against joe biden at this stage. i mean, axios is reporting tonight they're about to start launching tv ads if key swing states on other topics. what is the current state of the race and you know if you were advising joe biden on how to navigate, what we are seeing from the president in this crisis, what would you tell him to do? >> well, kasie, first of all, you know, chaotic disaster was a charitable interpretation of what's happened. so i think that it all starts there. i mean, listen, the white house, fts, is now a super spreader

site potentially. so the discore dance between the way the president views this crisis, what's even happening in the building. listen, in the white house, robert and i both work there. it's like working in a submarine, you can't, the halls are narrow. you will run into people. they're telling the rest of the country, don't worry, open up. everything will be fine. the most important question in the campaign today, in september on election day will be who do we trust to dig us out of this crisis? maybe we're still in a health crisis. we will tern e certainly be in an economic crisis. he has unique experience. he led the great recovery act the last time the country had to dig out of a home. the trump campaign will spend millions of dollars and helped by fox and brightbart and disinformation. the biden campaign has to be focused on the economic recovery, healthcare is a big part of that, makeic sure you both are making sure what you will do and the failures of the

biden administration. they had to fight through a primary. is the trump campaign is ready for this race. they have all the money they need, the data they need. they released a pretty good app. it's the central organizing function. they know that, the biden campaign is adding a lot of talent. so the tactics of the campaign i think is where the big challenge is. the-at-of this campaign, i think the reality of the campaign is definitely in biden's favor right now. he's got to maximize that with running a great campaign. >> yeah, let's talk about the tactics for a second. because we all know having if you covered joe biden or spent any time with him at all. he is somebody who really shines when he ais in a room full of people he has been working with his whole life. whether it's a black church in south carolina or a small room where he is talking to people that he has known and worked for, for a long time. that sort of avenue is basically

gone. you know, i 19, he's been criticized for how he is often tactile, talking to people, hugging supporters, he's not going to be able to do any of that throughout the fall. i they lot of people would argue that was a real or is a real strength of his as a politician. how do you compensate for that in an era of social distancing and not being able to be 6 feet from anybody? >> right. well, i still think empathy can come through. and eventually, he is going to be able to get out of his house and get out of delaware and spend time with people with the appropriate health guidelines. so advertising is a big piece of that. they've already done some good adles. i think they've released one over the weekend that said character is revealed in crisis. i think they did a very good job of contrasting joe biden's empathy with donald trump's lack of it. social media, asking motorists to make the case. you can adapt. you can only control what you can control.

you can't complain about it. i think there are other ways to show that empathy. donald trump every day shows the lack of empathy. at the end of the day, that will drive voters in this election. we will have more crisis. the one thing, no matter what you think of trump's policy response which has been disastrous and his lack of preparation, which created the problem in the first place is there is no empathy. i think people are hungry for that whatever you say about joe biden. robert, i've seen it up close. this is one of the most empathetic person i seen in my life not just in politics. i think people in this country are hungry for that. >> all right. thank you both very much. i really appreciate your insight on all this. so come back any time and happy mother's day to those in your family who are celebrating mother's day. >> you as well. >> the fate of the u.s., thank you. the fate of the u.s. postal service which reports that it lost $4.5 billion in the quarter ending in march. other money managersings d don't understand why. because our way works great for us! but not for your clients.

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being a good neighbor means everything. featuring the emmy award-winning voice remote. access to your favorite apps, including netflix, prime video, youtube and hulu. all without changing passwords and inputs. the most 4k content and movies and shows on any screen. the best entertainment experience all in one place. what is going to happen to the post office? according to figures out yesterday, postal service losses more than doubled to $4.5 billion in the quarter ending in march. with businesses closed, mail volume is down more than 30%. there are fears that they could be forced to close by christmas. one person who knows the service better than most is new yorker staff writer case seth. her mother worked for 38 years as a rural letter carrier.

and she writes, quote, her mother spent her career delivering love letters, college accepts, mortgage papers, divorce filings, gold bars, headstones ashes and care packages. all of that now in serious danger, casey joins me now. thank you so much for being on the show, always great to host another person who shares a great name and this is a really unique story. something that you have yin e written about from an apology per secttive and a personal way. what has the postal service excuse me meant to your family and how does its current state potentially, should it concern the country? >> sure. thanks so much for having me and happy mother's day. the personal reference you are making is my mother's career. it's certainly true that my life, my family's livelihood is built entirely a job like a mail

carrier. these are good union jobs that allow families to put kids through colleges, a house, a car, means you get a raise every year. it means you are provided for with benefits and the american dream. you work hard and your life gets better. you are able to provide a better life for your children. that's one of the many things imperilled by the changes proposed for the postal service. that certainly will be felt on the employee's side. i think you and i should talk some about what every american should feel if the postal service shuttered. >> let's talk about the politics of this for a second, because part of why this has become such a problem, you know, typically, the postal service actually gets a lot of support from across the board in congress. so many rural states rely on the postal service for this last mile delivery so there typically are a lot of defenders in both parties. president trump has sort of gone uniquely involved. he's tweeted about it. he's talked, there have been

reports about his relationship with jeff bezos who owns "the washington post" and amazon, how that plays into all of this what are the politics that are driving the political risks for postal service beyond just these economic effects? >> sure, i mane, it's certainly true that president trump has personalized the federal agency. but there are long standing political animosities for the postal service, in particular when we talk about the financial viability of the agency, it goes back to a law passed in 2006 that required the postal service to pre-fund the retirement commitments, both pensions and healthcare for 75 years. so for a long time, the post am service had been running a tremendous office. that year it made $900 million. by changing the way the retirement funds are funded, it actually started to immediately run a deficit. $5 billion a year added up in debt and debt and debt, so when you reach a crisis point bilike coronavirus, the agency didn't have the reserves it needed.

president trump made it into a personal vendetta against jeff bezos and for amazon, are you right to lift up the state of small businesses in all 50 states and in rural communities. it's no surprise that 91% of americans love the united states postal service and they trust it. and that number is steady across both parties. so it's odd. the only animosity is on capitol hill. most americans, 91% love the agency. they believe in the services that they provide. they rely on it for their prescriptions, for their groceries, for everything. it's really politicians when you do appreciate how vital the services every xhuptd in this country. >> certainly our postman is somebody we have seen in this crisis around we are very grateful and what we would have done without the mail as we have been trying to navigate all this, thank you very much. thanks to your mother for the work she is doing oen this mother's day. when we come back, we have a

mother's day surprise after serving on the front lines of the healthcare crisis. ♪ limu emu & doug

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exactly. maybe in brooklyn, i think, is what i've heard. you know, it's one of the things i've realized from working in the emergency department for 17 years, you just have to kind of -- you have to be okay with the fact that you may or may not know what your day is going to look like, or your night, because it could be nights, holidays, weekends, whatever it is, we're going to be there to help you. >> that was emergency medicine physician dr. camilla sassin on msnbc one month ago back when she was anticipating what was to come on a one-month stint working in a hospital on the front lines in new york city. she vloged her experience along the way. >> it's building a hospital from scratch, so that means literally everything has to come in. so whether that's oxygen tubing or outlets that need to get created or places to put beds or medications or protocols on how to take care of patients, i guess you don't realize how

different it is until you're here. so if i see some patients today, they're super thankful. i was also super thankful because this is why we're here, is to take care of people. i am leaving new york city feeling very hopeful, but if we all come together, we can actually fight and beat coronavirus. amazing stories of perseverance, people turn their lives around. [ inaudible ] people also wanted to make new york city better. i feel very fortune to be here. >> dr. sassin is also a mother. she left her husband and two young children ages 3 and 5 home in colorado to go volunteer in queens. and she got to reunite with them on friday just in time for mother's day. >> what is that? >> i don't know. who is at the door? you want to go look? >> is it mom?

>> hi! hi, guys. hi, baby. hi, oh, my goodness, look at my baby. oh, i missed you so much. were you guys surprised i'm here? come here. [ laughter ] >> oh, my god. >> holy moly. >> my heart needed that today. dr. sasson is just one of many mothers risking her health and sacrificing time away from her family during this pandemic to help others. and so on a day when we celebrate all mothers, let's also say an extra thank you to those who are selflessly working to save lives or helping the world go on in other ways during this incredibly difficult time. thank you and happy mother's day. that's going to do it for us tonight here on "kasie d.c."

joshua johnson is up next with a look at the latest from across america. for now, good night from washington.

hey there, i'm joshua johnson at nbc news world headquarters in new york. it's going -- good to be with you tonight at the end of this mother's day. lots to talk about including the growing toll of coronavirus. that includes its toll on the economy and on our nation's efforts to bounce back. we'll get to that in just a minute. but we begin