phil rutger took the words right out of our mouths. at any other time, this might have been our lead story during this hour of the afternoon. the u.s. supreme court hearing arguments via conference call over whether the president can be shielded from investigations,

both criminal and/or congressional. at issue, two big cases surrounding the president's financial records. his personal lawyers argued that his tax returns and financial documents have to be withheld from three different congressional committees and a new york prosecutor, saying that demand for those records is politically motivated. the justices asked mostly tough questions of both sides and justice stephen breyer, one of the court's liberals, expressed concern at the amount of information the house is seeking on the president's finances and what it could mean for the futur future. >> that's a lot of information, and some of it's pretty vague. the fact that what i hold today will also apply to a future senator mcarthy asking a future harry truman the same questions, that bothers me. >> let's turn to the guy we always turn to when the subject is supreme court. our justice correspondent, pete

williams. and pete, at what point i read that kagan kind of interjected and said, so what you're asking here, she said of the president's lawyers, is that we kind of bypass the oversight function of congress. i know it's unfair to excerpt and paraphrase one comment by one of the nine, but tell us how the morning went. >> right, she said, you're asking us to put a 10-ton weight on the scale. here's the bottom line, brian. i think that there was a lot of interest about whether the president was going to get completely what he wanted from this newly conservative court with two of his appointees. i think the answer to that is clearly "no," he's not. the second thing is that if either congress or the new york prosecutor, cyrus vance are going to get anything they want, it's going to be several months from now. so two cases today. the one you played the excerpt from, justice breyer on, is the demand for three committees of congress for material. and i think here, the scope of

the congressional demands, the breadth of them, years and years of documents, not just from the president, but from members of his family, that seemed to be too much for the court to swallow. they did -- they seemed very bothered that there wasn't -- as many of them said, no limiting principle. the president's argument is that congress has no open-ended subpoena power, that they can only subpoena information that it needs to pass laws. it can't just go poking around and generally investigate things. and i think that's what the court was concerned about. that there's no limiting principle. the court didn't seem to say, as the president does, that they can never get this stuff from the president or have to meet an extremely high demand. so it's possible the supreme court may say, you know, maybe one of these committee requests is in the ballpark and may send it back to a lower court to further refine. and that's why i say there would be a delay. now, in the second case, the president's arguments seem to get nowhere. his argument is that when the manhattan district attorney is seek something from the president with a grand jury

subpoena that presidents are absolutely immune from any part of the criminal justice process, including grand jury subpoenas. i think that got no takers at all on the supreme court. they didn't seem to be terribly persuaded either at the fallback argument, which is that if you open the door to local prosecutors, there are 2,300 of them and they could harass the president. so i think they were more interested in making sure that when local district attorneys or local grand juries want something from the president, that it has to meet a test. that it has to be -- there has to be an objective basis for it. it has to be reasonably probable that it would be helpful to the grand jury's investigation, can't be obtained elsewhere, and it's important to have now. so my guess here, again, is that they'll send this back for further work on the vance subpoena. but i think it's going to be a mixed day for the president, dproe probably do a little better on the congressional subpoena. not so well on the vance subpoena. >> pete, back to the limiting

principle. the court appears to not love writing new law on the fly. traditionally, if it's going to be a big landmark case, if it's going to be a matter of public important, they have done so using phrases like, with all deliberate speed. but as you put it, that would likely be kicked back down and that role would fall on one of the lower federal courts. >> right. i mean, the problem for the president here is that the supreme court has ruled out absolutes in the past. and trump came in today looking for absolutelies. it said in the paula jones case that a president can be sued while they're in office over their conduct before they were elected president. and this whole idea that you can't subject a president to any court proceedings because it would be too distracting to his official duties, that was rejected in the jones case. in the watergate case, when the

grand jury subpoenaed the tapes from president nixon, again, the court said that a president is not immune from the criminal process. so that was the problem for the president. and i think you're right, the supreme court will try to decide this very narrowly and say, if congress can show a legitimate legislative need, then, yes, they can get material from the president, if it's not too distracting. >> pete williams, i had a briefing paper with notes about the kind of things to ask you about and your encyclopaedic knowledge of all of these issues. i checked as you spoke, you took us through all the history and pertinent facts. thank you so much for spending some time with us. >> i will say this -- >> go ahead. >> with the new revised -- doing this by telephone conference call, two things. one is, it tends to go on longer. this was schedule for two hours, it went for three. and secondly, it makes it a little harder to guess where the

justices are going to come out. here's a hint for all of you want to be supreme court reporters, always look to see which side gets the most questions, because that's probably the side that's going to lose. but when every justice gets an equal chance to ask a question, it's harder to handicap. >> so for everyone at home thinking they weren't going to learn anything during the pandemic, there you go! thanks to pete williams. thanks, pete williams, for spending some time with us. joining us now, former u.s. attorney, joiyce vance, who always teach us something new. joyce, i want to ask you something, just as a former white house staffer. i worked in a white house that turned over everything, almost everything that was asked for when then-oversight committee chairman waxman asked for it. there's been a sense, just in covering the trump white house, that they've turned over nothing. thech boa they have boasted about their stonewalling strategy. it seems that the very concept of congressional oversight is on the line here.

is that a good way, a decent way, or the wrong way to look at these cases before the supreme court? >> i think you're exactly right, nicole. that's the framing for the arguments that we heard this morning, because these cases wouldn't be in the supreme court if this white house, like the white house you worked in, the administration that i served under, had been willing to engage in accommodation with congress about turning over documents. yes, the grand jury case involving the district attorney might still be there, but there's been no accommodation, where the white house has tried to permit congress to engage in a reasonable oversight, while still protecting privileged documents. these arguments are really about how powerful is the presidency? is it this overwhelming, all-powerful executive that the president so often talks about when he says that his article ii powers are limitless? >> you know, joyce, i think a

lot of the president's critics and certainly a lot of my democratic friends think anything before the supreme court is a lost cause. that seems to be another sign of the times. the supreme court, i think at a time in our history, and pete williams just went through the history around the nixon teens ruling against then president nixon, but it doesn't feel like that's the expectation that the jost majority of supporters have. trump supporters think the court will be favorable to trump, trump critics think it will be favorable to trump as well. is that fair? >> we live in a highly political environment. i think the court was a casualty, not in terms of the court itself, but the public's perception of the court of this administration. and its politicization. but we need to remember that the supreme court's tradition is to always search for consensus. it's a court that likes institutionally to issue its decisions 9-0. obviously, it doesn't always get there, but two of the most

contentious decisions in its history, and cases that are the backdrop for today's proceedings, both the paula jones case involving president clinton and the nixon tapes case, those cases were both decided 9-0 with supreme court justices who had been appointed by both political parties. it would be naive or maybe just a little bit too optimistic to expect 9-0 decisions here. i think it's a mistake to write off the court right now as a political actor. >> it's a little bit of hope from joyce vance and i will take it. joyce vance, thank you for spending some time with us. brian, it's just so interesting. and i cover -- we both covered the trump presidencies since its first day, you with your signature day count, and there is this fatigue that i hear on the right and the left that, you know, we thought that the justice department under rod

rosenstein might be a break on donald trump's illegality or perceived corruption. then we thought that robert mueller might have that under control. people pinned their hopes on that process for two years. then there was an impeachment where republicans were so in the tank for trump they didn't even want to see witnesses. and now it's sort of off to the judicial broonanch. the supreme court in these cases. and it's just interesting. i just wonder, and i worry that we keep moving the guardrail. >> i think so much of the on-air guests that you and i have in common and our broadcasts often draw from each other. someone you see talking to me, someone i see talking to you on the air, joyce vance is an example of someone you and i would have on multiple times a week if this were normal times. we would be in a political mode. and i think it's an almost

uniquely american way of expressing hope. and that is at the end of the day, the center will hold. not the political center, but the core of our country and our belief system and the rule of law will hold. and i think some days, we have to insist upon that hope. thank you for having me. >> it isn't even friday and you guys are all filling me up with optimism. brian williams, thank you for spending most of the hour with us. we're grateful. >> thank you. coming up, new reporting about donald trump's eagerness to get out in the country in an attempt to tout his leadership. and the ppe factory whose leaders said, thank you, but no thank you. right back after this. , thank y thank you. right back after this. did you know prilosec otc can stop frequent heartburn

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to kill lawn weeds to the root without harming your grass. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. donald trump has been itching to get out into the country sans masks, but it seems like no everyone is eager to have him, at least not right now. "the washington post" out with some tremendous reporting that covers the white house pressing for a presidential visit to a pennsylvania factory last friday to thank workers for making ppe supplies. the bosses scuttled the trip worried that it could, quote, jeopardize both the safety of the workers and the plant's ability to produce special material for masks and other medical gear. those workers had lived inside the plant for nearly a month in order to keep themselves and their production lines safe. and they have received national attention for their heroic efforts. joining us now, the reporter behind that stunning report, national investigative reporter, carol len ig. there's so much amazing

journalism in "the washington post" these days, but this is a story i read last night and sent to everyone i know in my tv and political life and everyone i know in my life life. like, here are the heroes. first, just talk about what they did in pennsylvania at this factor factory. >> nicole, i'm so glad it took you back what these individuals have done, because for 28 days, they slept in cots that they set up behind their desks, behind their bosses' desks, in crowded corners of bathrooms, they set up places to slept and slept here away from their families and loved ones for more than a month so they could safely produce at a rapid speed without any disruption the specialized cloth that is used to make masks, gowns, other emergency personal protective equipment. and this got a lot of press, as you might have noticed in april, late april, and the white house noticed. and thought, wow, we can score a visit, let the president thank these people, and show the

president as the leader, the warrior that he says that he is in combatting this virus. >> you know, carol, the irony is probably lost on donald trump, but they didn't want him there because at least right now, at this moment, the white house might be a traveling petri dish of covid. they have two new infections. the vice president's plane, air force 2, stayed on the tarmac, several individuals got off of it. there is a real lack of understanding that the president, by not putting social distancing in place until this week, by not requiring masks in this week, does not arrive at anybody's workplace with a, you know, sort of seal of approval healthwise. >> i think that's one of the most interesting things about the story is looking beyond this plant in -- near wilmington, delaware, that said, no, thank you, it's too risky for us to have a presidential visit. think of what company in the world has turned down a visit from the president in our history? i can't think of one.

they said this is not the time for this visit. but beyond that, there are real reasons for all sorts of corporate officials, governors, medical professionals to sort of put a hand up and say, no, thank you, to this white house. because already visits from the vice president have led to a nursing home being concerned that a vice presidential staffer tested positive for covid the day after she and the vice president were there, giving them gloves and masks. she wasn't wearing a mask and now she is, you know, probably being treated and hopefully getting better. but now they've had that exposure, because she was within feet of a series of people there. another thing that has happened in the wake of presidential or vice president visits is the governor of iowa is now self-quarantining, because she knows that she had contact with this staffer, as well. it's really sort of striking to think that, as you said, the

petri dish is coming to people and the hosts are now wondering, are we in danger because we're part of these photo opes of the president or the vice president or his surrogates, attempting to show their leadership on their show their leadership on this issue? >> carol, it's an amazing piece of reporting and you know and anyone that covers the white house knows for the president to go anywhere it's literally thousands of people who move, not just the planes, the helicopters, the motorcade, a backup motorcade. a really important story. it's great to see you, too. when we come back -- the return of major league baseball? it could be back sooner than you think. stay with us. . at&t is committed to keeping you connected. so you can keep your patients cared for. your customers served. your students inspired. and your employees closer than ever.

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half season beginning around the fourth of july, we're still a long way off and the first swing of the bat. today, league professionals are presenting the players union a plan, it alters many traditions for the america's pastime, fans and the rules of the game. joining us now from phoenix, hold of the arizona diamondbacks nbc news political cattle report vaughn hillyard. vaughn, will there be baseball? >> the mets were going to be many town to play the diamondbacks but there's some action on the baseball front. that action would be individuals familiar with mlb's plans right now, this amp, their negotiations taking place between mlb, commissioner ron m manfred, a proprosal to begin the major league baseball season on the july 4th weekend. for that going to the mlb

players association, they're outlining, the season would be cut in half, 28 games would take place, number of playoff teams would extend from 10 to 14. the national league play teams primarily play each in the national league, it would be regionally. but the question is, will that season be able to begin? there's lot of questions coming from the players association, an individual i talked with the association said they need -- the players need a better understanding of what thing proposal would be for major league baseball. daily tests? families be tested? how would this take place? the other issue, and it may be money that holds up whether baseball is played this yeerp, nicolle, i'm told the mlb is proposing a r50/50 revenue sharing this time around. they call this is salary cap, they're pushing back just

because this year they won't be able to have fans, the players say s that doesn't mean they should be the ones bearing that burden. lot to be discussed this afternoon, nicolle. >> we'll stay on it. i'll say this, if baseball happens we're switching beats. i get the baseball beat. you get mommy's basement. coming up a, a stark contrast between the experts and what we hear from donald trump. "deadline: white house" next. "deadline: white house" next you're sensitive. yet some say it isn't real milk. i guess those cows must actually be big dogs. sit! i said sit!

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hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. despite a warning of rise of coronavirus, the president saying americans act as warriors, the president's top scientists testified on capitol hill, painting a vastly picture than the rosy one offered up by the president of where we are in fight against covid in the u.s. a warning to top policymakers, if we don't proceed carefully we could lose our grip on the coronavirus. here's dr. fauci as dozens of states move to reopen. >> my concern is that states, cities or regions, their

attempt, understandable to get back to some form of normality the check points that we put in our guidelines about when it's safe to proceed in pulling back on mitigation. because i feel if that occurs, there's a real risk that you'll trigger an outbreak that you may not be able to control, which in fact paradoxically set you back it could set you back to get xhingry covery, turning the clock baccarater than going forward. that's my major concern, senator. >> one point we know dr. fauci wanted to make in today's hearing that's was it. in "the new york times" on an on the record e-mail to reporter last night. just after hours of donald trump stood in the rosen garden and

say we met the moment. fauci also suggested a long timetable in developing vaccines where trump has promised warped speed. where the president has complained behind the scenes that the death toll is inflated. dr. fauci said the death toll now more than 82,000 americans likely undercounters the true americans lost. when dr. fauci speaks he does with the benefit something that donald trump doesn't enjoy, credibility. 67% trust dr. fauci's information about coronavirus, contrasted to about 36% of americans who trust trump. according to a new poll out this morning. dr. fauci wasn't the only person in today's hearing to break publicly with donald trump after the day he stood in front of

banners quote, america leads in testing. senator lamar alexander. >> what our country has done so far in testing is impressive but not nearly enough. all roads back to work and school go through testing. . more tests we conduct the better we can identify those sick and exposed and we can quarantine those. >> for their part, democrats on the committee some of them trump's former opponents in the presidential race filled in the picture of the federal response that has led right here to this precarious position. >> dr. fauci and dr. redfield you made news by warning us of the dangers of states opening too early, just hours after the president declared that we have prevailed over coronavirus. you work for a president who is frankly undermining our efforts

to comply with the guidance that you've given us. >> it's sad to say that we have a president of the united states, the leader of our country, who from day one down played the dangers facing this country from the pandemic. who told us that the crisis would be over in a few months, that we didn't have to worry. who fired those members of the government who wanted to act aggressively. >> the president needs to stop pretending that if he just ignores bad news it will go away. it won't. the time for magical thinking is over here. president trump must acknowledge that the federal response has been inefficient and more people are dying as a result. we're running out of time to save lives and we need to act now. >> crisis, credibility and the way forward today are where we start with some of our favorite

reporters and friends. dr. leana wen and jonathan lemier and former democratic senator claire mccaskill. dr. wen, let me start with you, i said in the last hour i thought dr. fauci sort of fire hosed everyone watches with uninterrupted with facts and truths, they still very frightening what could happen if we stop the mitigation efforts, stop social distancing, stop doing any of the things that feels like there's still a push and pull when the president talks. >> yeah, i mean, it's clear about what he's saying because it's entirely based on science and evidence. nothing able this virus has changed. we don't have a cure. we don't have a vaccine. what's keeping the virus in check is social distancing and what dr. fauci said today is

that if we let up on social distancing, then with are going to see an uptick in the number of cases. ideally, the time that the shelter in place the lockdowns have bought us is the time to build up our public health infrastructure, the testing, the tracing to control the new cases that will arise. but the problem is, we have squandered that time. we don't have those capabilities in place. the consequences are predictable. to his point, we're going to see this needless suffering, needless death because we are opening too soon and as a result we're going to see the consequences. >> you know, claire, there was something sad for me listening to dr. fauci, because i listened to him feeling like maybe he made those arguments privately in the situation room or where the coronavirus task force meets and he hadn't prevailed and after making those arguments in

the room behind closed scenes and seeing president trump tweet, liberate with virginia, all he has left is to tell the truth before congress. what did you think watching today. >> well, i mean, you can tell this is a guy who's so steeped in science and data, that he is going to really keep his blinders on and stay on the science and data. i thought when rand paul tried to take a swipe at him i thought he handled it really well. he said i know i'm not the end all. but my thing is public health. my thing is science. my thing is data. i'm going to be offering that information to the people who have the power to make the decisions. every time he's allowed to talk, especially when the president is not popping up over his shoulder every ten minutes, sometimes

directly contradicting what he's saying, he does a masterful job. that's why the american people trust him and don't trust trump when it comes to all of this information. >> you raised this exchange with rand paul. let me play it. >> i think we ought to have a little bit of humility in our belief that we know what's best with the economy. as much as i respect you dr. fauci, you're not the end all. >> we don't know everything about this virus. we better be careful particularly when it comes to children. the more and more we're learning, we can see what the virus can do. i think we better be careful if we're not cavalier in thinking that children are completely immune to the effects. again, you're right in the numbers that children in general

do much much better than the adults and the elderly. i'm very careful and hopefully humble in knowing that i don't know everything about this disease and that's why i'm very reserved in making broad predictions. >> claire mccaskill, that was the exchange you pointed out. >> children came up over and over again. kudos to senator cassidy, he brought up the problem that's now surfacing about these symptoms in children, but one of the things that came out today that was startling was there doesn't seem to be a clear answer about whether or not the children are going to be included in the safety phase of the vaccine testing. they're not going to be able to administer this vaccine to children if the safety of the vaccine hasn't been tested on children. the fact that the fda commissioner couldn't answer that question i was stunned by

that. the other thing, nicolle, just an indictment of the cdc was their inability to say when they were going to post the guidelines on testing for reopening the economy. what are they doing? i mean, what could be more important? these states are opening, these localities are opening as we speak with absolutely no guidance and the head of cdc said, well, have your state call me. what's one that? that's just bizarre. >> i want to come back to dr. wen on the kids. we're all parents here. jonathan, can you take a stab at what's going on at the cdc? they had a model that was sheffield by the white house. it made into news organizations. there's a constant theme, disagreements and clashes with this white house are simply shelving the data when it makes

its way to 1600 pennsylvania of avenue. >> that's right, my colleagues at the ap have done terrific work unearthing these documents from the cdc, that were transmitted to the west wing, the trump administration, jared kushner and chief of staff mark meadows and yet haven't put into practice. indeed shelved. you're right, i felt like dr. fauci just poured a lot of cold water on what the president has been trying to push in the last few weeks in particular with this push, this urging for the states to reopen their economies. he didn't do politically, he never used the words the president's wrong. he sort of suggested that this september may be far too soon for schools particularly universities to reopen, to do

the necessary, safe social distancing. we talked about the death count. the official tally is over 81,000 or more and dr. fauci said he believed it was significantly higher than that. which stands in stark contrast with the president who publicly has questioned the some, but privately a lot, he said it's overinflated. what dr. fauci said the exact opposite. he said it's far more americans who have lost their lives to this terrible disease than the president wants to admit. >> mitt romney, jonathan, also came loaded to bear for the shame announcement yesterday from donald trump in the rose garden that had some overtones of north korean state media of standing in front of banners, testing's number one. how do you think those critiques of republican senator mitt romney are landing pretty safe guess here -- not well. the president of course is not one to take criticism and

senator romney has long not been a favorite of his, of course, let's remember he's been excluded some of the committees and white house working groups about the coronavirus, because the president still holds a grudge he was the one republican senator to cast a ballot for removal during the impeachment battle. the president certainly doesn't let a grudge slip. and what we saw yesterday from that rose garden news conference is, you know, not only was the misstatement of the facts in terms of the testing -- no doubt testing has improved, that's good, but it has a long way to go. all public health experts agree before the nation can open safely again. just politically, let's remember the president was holding those briefings on a daily basis. a direct correlation between his sinking polls numbers. they were unsettled by the misinformation and anger coming

from the president at the podium. he defended the practice that he was getting good ratings, didn't want to give them up, until he suggested that bleach would work as a disinfectant. yesterday a press briefing, what happens? a angry clash with reporters. while we haven't had the president weigh in on today's testimony, safe to say, we will at some point. i can't imagine he was happy from what he heard not only from senator romney but dr. fauci and others. >> dr. wen, i want to come back to you because there's so much information about the science and about the virus itself that i just want to correct frankly from what donald trump said yesterday, testing, mitt romney seemed to be making the point that any comparison to south korea now is besides the point, they had the testing in place to

rest their virus spread we did not? >> the number of testing you need is not a static number, it depends on how many cases you have and what's needed in order to control the infection and i think that's the key missing piece to so much of a conversation, we keep on talking about the number of cases and whether they're decliningened that's really important and we also have to talk about the capabilities that we have and that's relative to what else is going on in our community in terms of understanding the degree of the outbreak. and so we don't have nearly enough tests. i'm on the front lines. i talk that providers who say we still don't have enough tests to guarantee patients who have tests much less to do surveillance testing for people who don't have symptoms. and without that type of testing, that widespread testing, how can we provide

employees and students and really anyone the assurance they need to go about their daily lives. >> you mentioned parents, every parent i know clinging to the hope of sending kids back to schools. this inflammatory syndrome that presents like kawasaki syndrome, can you talk about the facts, what to watch for and how this will affect public policy as it pertains to schools? >> we initially understood nicolle, this virus covid-19, or the disease that causes this disease respiratory disease. but now we're seeing that it affects many other body systems not only the elderly with chronic medical conditions but we're seeing young people in their 30s and 40s having strokes. we're see this new phenomena of

children, young kids who have this inexplicable syndrome that affects their coronary arteries, causing toxic shock or death in some cases. it does appear that's rare, but this is something that every parent is going to be worried about. every parent is going to be concerned about this possibly happening to their kid. young people are not immuned in any way. young people could be carriers and transmitters to others. we're seeing these shocking impact on children. that's significantly going to impact any parent's willingness to send their kids to school, no matter if there are other consequences to their education. we need to know a lot more. >> yeah, do you think it's too early to lay that over any guesses or planning for the fall

or do you think this is the science that will drive all that decisionmaking come august and september? >> i mean, i would hope it's the science, but that's not been the case. i will anticipate schools will be reopening not as safely as we want, and i hope that's why the cdc guidelines are going to be so important. if reopening is going to occur we want to do so as safely as possible and maybe we do things so as staggering the number of hours kids are in school and putting desks six feet apart. i don't know what needs to be there, but we need to have the guidance to do as safely as possible because i do think reopening is going to occur at least in some states come fall. >> claire mccassill in the u.s. senate you were a voice of reason, from a state that represented the entire

ideological spectrum, right now the polling on a fear of a second wave, 81% of americans are afraid of a second wave. what would you have sought to get clarity on in that hearing today? what would you be saying to your constituents? >> the most important thing is to get clarity from the cdc on what should be the protocol for reopening as it relates to testing and contact tracing. i don't think it was covered sufficiently, what's going on with contact tracing? i thought some senators did a good job of pointing out the inadequacies of what the cdc has done. the cdc failed to hire a single person as of march, he didn't even know if they had hired anyone. so, i think that frankly, this was a pretty bipartisan hearing.

it will drive the president nuts. i think he thought the republican senators will take the microphone and repeat his talking points, how great he is, fall on their knees to donald trump and they did not do that. there was very little that a boy, donald trump n that hearing today. the fact that he allowed him to testify in the senate and not the house. >> so interesting. as jonathan pointed out, that ship might have sailed with the instruction that people inject bleach. claire mccaskill, dr. wen, thank you for starting us off. when we come back -- former president obama apparently getting under the very thin skin of the current president. our next guest warns about the dangers of a president with such

a fragile little ego. speaking of president obama, the former president now a private citizen should, quote, keep his mouth shut. plus, trump first tells governors they're on their own, today he takes credit for their skyhigh poll numbers. all those stories coming up. save hundreds on your wireless bill

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what crime exactly are you accusing president obama of committing and do you believe the justice department should prosecute him? >> obamagate, it's been going on for a long time, it's been going on before i got elected. it's a disgrace it happened. if you look at now, all of this information that's being released and from what i understand that's only the beginning. some terrible things happened and it should never be allowed

to happen in our country again. you'll be seeing what's going on over the next -- over the coming weeks. i wished you would write honestly about it. >> what is the crime exactly? >> you know what the crime is. the crime is obvious to everybody. >> phil rucker from the washington post exposing donald trump's repeated and debunked theories to blame president obama for the russia investigation. trump is unable to define obamagate. and those alleged crimes. what's clear the president's attempt to divert attention away from theed a min straegs's handling of the pandemic. frank figliuzzi says, trump, quote truth-twisting is one he can't pull off without attorney general bill barr.

joining us now is frank figliuzzi. and neal katyal here. frank, take us through your piece. it's terrifying. but it's out in the open. >> well, i talked abin the article it's not very difficult to engage in predictive analysis. the clues and warning signs have been there and it's getting stronger and stronger of where this is heading. clearly if you look at what the president has been re-tweeting the kind of conspiracy content he's re-tweeting and what's been saying, we're heading toward a period of time that's going to be quite ugly, certainly imply

and want people to infer that president obama and vice president biden engaged in a conspiracy against him to gin up the russia hoax and on a worst case scenario, we may see an accomplice in this mess, the attorney general of the united states who might go to attempt to charge or smear in some official way, perhaps even to call a grand jury, where we see prior administration officials attacked, in an attempt to ruin them. i want to point out in the article, it's really important to understand facts versus fiction. what i see in the conspiracy theories, the federalist article the president re-tweeted, just because the intelligence was briefing the obama administration during the transition period and just because president obama said this concerns me because we're

about to give classified briefings to the incoming administration, please tell me whether we can trust flynn to give them the intelligence briefings. the intel community went out and looked at this. >> neal, frank figliuzzi writes about facts versus fiction. the person who warned donald trump not to put mike flynn on any of the lists on key national security posts, wasn't a democrat, it wasn't obama. it was chris christie, chris christie was fired as head of the transition for not putting mike flynn on the list for any important national security position. fact, chris christie was punished by jared kushner and steve bannon, they dumped the

transition books which didn't have mike flynn's name on any of the lists because he, too, shared concerns about whether mike flynn was suitable for a national security position. so there's a pretty inconvenient little wrinkle in donald trump's fantastical delusions about mike flynn and chris christie didn't think he belong in a national security post, either. >> yeah, it's fantastical. i mean, i talked criminal laws for over 20 years at georgetown, i never heard of the crime called obamagate, it doesn't exist. if you're the sitting president of the united states and you're going to accuse your predecessor of a crime you darn well better specify what that crime is actually is, or you know it, or whatever he said yesterday,

that's ridiculous. and you know what this really is an attempt to distract, not just from the terrible handling of the pandemic with now 80,000 lives lost also the terrible handling of the flynn case itself. what they're throwing up is a bunch of chaff that doesn't hold up. the fact is you had michael flynn plead guilty twice to lying to the fbi, the government admits he lied to the vice president and now they're trying, you know, they tried to drop the charges. they're hoping with all of this innuendo of obamagate and stuff, people get confused. it's so important for the judge in the michael flynn to do what a former federal judge said in the washington post said, you got to inquire into the circumstances of this dropped prosecution because at stake is really the idea of rule of law and justice. even if the president in his his

press conferences wants to throw out these words obamagate the american public have a right to know of what happened here and get to the bottom of it. >> neal, serious question, i know people that know bill barr or who knew bill barr, why is he so devoted to weakness he projects, letting donald trump tickle his tummy? why act so weak that you can't stand by career prosecutors? why can't you stand by the confession? why can't you stand by an admission lying to the fbi that judge sullivan affirmed and sought last year? why the weakness from someone like barr? >> i can't speculate to barr. i mean, i have seen it with so many people in trump administration which is they lose their moral core and they're afraid, they're afraid of trump's bullying and whatever core they had.

because they have slots to fill they get them filled. but you know this is a very, you know, serious set of things that's happening at the justice department and throughout the administration and one would hope that, you know, some of the leadership would have the bravery of the career folks, unfortunately it doesn't seem that way. that's why you see these career prosecutors resigning and withdrawing from cases and trump is just hoping and barr is just hoping that maybe they can get away with it without any scrutiny. the house doesn't seem capable of having oversight. barr has dodged the requests to appear before the committee. it does fall to that federal judge in washington, d.c., to really uncover the truth. >> frank, talk about the letters signed by a whole bunch of former doj and law enforcement

officials. >> it's up over 2,000 of us in the doj alumni corps who are just appalled at what attorney general barr has done to the rule of law and justice. specifically in regard to his intervention in the flynn case. i got a lot of people on social media who say, frank, isn't this like the second time there's been a letter of former doj employees asking for barr's resignation or some other action? what's the point? the point is, couple of things, first, this is a different request in this letter, the courts and the congress must engage in oversight with regard to attorney general barr's actions, number one, number two, you may see three, four, five more letters because we got to speak out, silence is deadly, and we're not going to look back on this time on history and say we remained silent. >> i'd add the point is, as you just said the people who didn't

speak out, who didn't risk being smeerd by people in the highest places in our government on twitter will look back and know they could have said something or had done something. thank you both for speaking out. after the break, team trump is circling the wagons ahead of the election. they're also ready to smear president obama again, anew, is that really good politics? we'll ask, next. l ask, next.

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the best of governments. it had been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset of what's in it for me and to heck with everybody else, when that mindset is operationalized in

our government. >> that was former president obama on a private call with member of his administration preventing some pretty valid criticism in the ongoing coronavirus response from donald trump. last night it fell to mitch mcconnell and his view to respond. >> you know, generally, former presidents just don't do that. i remember president george w. bush and his father, right through eight years of democratic administrations after they left office, and kept their mouths shut because they didn't feel it was appropriate for former presidents to be critiqued. you got a president of another party, so i think president obama should have kept his mouth shut, you know, we know he doesn't like much of this administration is doing, that's understandab understandable, but i think it's a little bit classless, frankly,

to critique an administration that comes of you. >> so, that was mitch mcconnell saying that former president obama should keep his mouth shut and calling him classless. mitch mcconnell right now has a 22% approval rating, i'm guessing it's not going to go up. joining us now is john heilemann and eddie glad. a lot of people are starved for all of our former presidents to weigh in and actually, i worked for george w. bush, george w. bush has used the power of the former president's club to speak out very selectively but before donald trump was even inaugurated in an interview, he talked about his concerns, about freedom of religion, we talked about some concerns about a free press, so, mitch mcconnell rude

and wrong. >> mitch mcconnell's hypocrisy is one thing. we just heard the president accused a former president of a crime. there were crickets. what's the nature of this distraction. what work is it doing? president obama's presidency, those eight years in some ways why donald trump is a president, a short hand for cultural backlash, right, when you invoke obama to a certain segment of the country, he represents that america doesn't look like it should, changing the culture of the place. to invoke obama in the way that trump did and in some ways discipline him in the way that mcconnell did, he could have used the word, boy, shut up. what we're hearing, i think, is what we're hearing is the first

of many sal voes of the culture wars deployed in order to activate the base. they believe it -- it will motivate people to make choices against their own interests. >> so, john, just as a pure political undertaking, the base has never exhaled. donald trump's base is activated but the people that mitch mcconnell is going to activate is the obama coalition that got obama elected handily twice, it seems on being on top of rude and wrong it's really bad politics. >> that's the danger, nicolle. you know mitch mcconnell he was appearing on trump tv, a place that, you know, probably ten years ago or even five years ago mitch america con knell wouldn't have appeared now he's so fully on the trump train -- >> so that's lara trump.

i didn't notice that. >> with lara trump, oh, yes. there's mitch mcconnell basically carrying donald trump's water and doing all the things that eddie just said. i agree with you. donald trump just didn't accuse barack obama of a crime, he's been accusing barack obama of being a criminal since the spring of 2017. i think it's been a sign of extraordinary restraint on barack obama's part given how much of not just the democratic base but a wide swath of the country have been begging to hear more from barack obama, to have him weigh in on many of these controversies and he's held his tongue to a large extent. now you have mitch mcconnell, joe biden needs to activate the total taity of the coalition in order to beat donald trump. there's nothing that mitch

mcconnell is doing by referring to barack obama the way he did. he's increasing the odds whatever kind of candidate joe biden turns out to be the obama coalition is going to be there for joe biden. >> you guys are staying. we could talk about this one story and just the rank amateur politics. i'd add to what you said, john, that joe biden's message is that as america is grappling with the pandemic and trying to get back on its feet, very badly damaged economy, i'll turn to the best of the best. barack obama went scandal-free for eight years, whatever you think of his policies, obviously republicans don't agree with him, it was the most competently eight years of an executive branch in recent history. the idea of making competence an issue is something that's going

to help donald trump is bonkers. john? >> that's the technical term, right, for it, bopgers. >> exactly. >> there's a wide swath of americans who are not part of the democratic base, not hard-core left, a wide swath of americans, barack obama, admired him, by contrast to donald trump they long for no drama obama, for the calmness, for the unity for all the things that barack obama represented. now mitch mcconnell picking up this it only increases the ye n yearning to get back to a time that proximate d normal. after the break, donald trump's latest attempt to take

credit where it's not his to take, his head-scratching comments on governors' high approval ratings, next. ratingst

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grubhub. together we can help save the restaurants we love. trump has always sought to put all of the onus for testing and coronavirus response on the governors. so they took most of it now. now they're getting recognition, higher poll numbers than him, he's mad. like this poll which finds 71% of americans approve of their governors' performance while

43%. his tweet, quote, remember this, every governor who has sky high approval on their hand lick of their coronavirus, i am happy for them all. eddie, so, again, donald trump has not been able to locate or attach to himself an empathy tick but he's still hyperfocused and obsessed and jealous of governors who carried a dispro por disproportion ateload of the response and he's tweeting about their approval ratings this morning. >> we're over 80,000 dead and instead of focusing on the fact that the country is in crisis, a profound crisis, and that people are grieving, he's worried about polls. look, donald trump is a mall voe

lent man, snake oil salesman. so the fact that he's trying to take credit for the success of governors, the fact that he's trying to take credit for if shorthand part of that is a con man. >> what do you make of the fact spoo the vacuum these governors were thrust and even as we're facing what nbc news reported an imminent spike of coronavirus cases, people can handle the bad news. people can handle the difficult days if they feel levelled with. is there some basic lesson of leadership being taught by the state's governors? >> sure. when there's mystery, when

there's uncertainty, people will fill it with fantasy. when we don't have information, in other words to make rational decisions and engage in a kind of intelligent action, we'll reach for our deepest fears as a way of justifying how we act. governors are engaged in front line work. to fill the vacuum with fact. it seems that's amazingly important work when we have such fantastic fantasy womcoming from the whit house.

>> i think it underscores that the phone numbublic can handle and donald trump is still lying to us. >> they want the facts. they want the troous and they want not partisanship, not po r polarizati polarization. they want someone to bring them together and tell them the truth. donald trump's only gear is to divide and unlie. he's u uniquely unsuited to this moment. if he loses in november, it will be the reason why. >> yeah. can't stop doing the thing that's politically devastating to him. thank you. after the break, paying our respects to pair of chicago nurses lives well lived is flexion. o nurses lives well lived is flexion. about making choices.

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with familiars in particular. both of them mourning the loss of a mother. 35-year-old nurse gave birth to her third child five months ago. last week at the same hospital she died from coronavirus. just across the street from the nursing home where she and her husband have been fighting on the pandemic's front lines. her sister told the chicago tribune that she was the glue that held their family together. strong, determined, fierce. she always advocated for those in need. we're thinking of her family tod today, her kids, a 5-year-old, 6-year-old and an infant especially for her husband who tested positive for the disease himself. there's another family in our thoughts. that's 63-year-old maria lopez. she was an operating room nurse so close to retirement that she transitioned to working from home. when the pandemic hit she answered the call. her daughter says she begged her

mom not to go in. he knew her patients needed her. she died four days after what was supposed to be her last day at work. in honor of her sacrifice, think about maria today and say thank you to a nurse. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. our coverage continues with chuck todd right after a break. chuck todd right after a break (vo) what does it mean to be america's most reliable network? it means helping those who serve stay connected to their families. and now verizon wants to give them something back.

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if it's tuesday, it's "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd continuing msnbc breaking news coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. today we heard testimony via video conference from some of the white house top experts in a forum not controlled by the president and we heard a clear picture of the challenges this country faces to quickly and confidently re