president trump heads to the battle ground state of pennsylvania tomorrow afternoon, but not for one of his signature rallies, at least it's not being bui billed that way. instead he'll visit a lehigh valley medical distributor that's provided ppe, masks and surgical gowns to front lines across the country. this is days after he put pressure on the state to reopen. he wrote, quote, the great people of pennsylvania want their freedom now. trump has been wrangled by polling showing a lot of americans rank their individual governor response above their own. democratic governor tom wolf of pa is standing his ground. on monday the governor threatened to withhold federal money from counties that defy

the state shautdown mandate. we're joined by maura barrett who is with us from just outside allentown, pa where the president will visit tomorrow. maura, specifically where are you. i guess there's nothing preventing a factory speech from, as we've seen, becoming a kind of a mini rally speech at the same time. >> reporter: briern, that's exactly what business owners here tell me that they're concerned about. we're just outside of allentown, geographically very close to new jersey and new york which have seen a lot of spikes in cases over the past couple weeks. as we've been talking to business owners in the area, they're frustrated it's become a red versus blue argument. president trump coming to town, literally asserting himself into that argument along with the tweet earlier this week saying he's also looking for pennsylvania to reopen. the democratic governor pushing back against counties looking to reopen. the lehigh county commission

that oversees the immediate area looking to help businesses push from red to yellow which means he wants to give these businesses in the square here, about 15 businesses, most are closed except for one deli that's doing curbside pickup. he's talking about giving the businesses the option to reopen safely because he says the medical officials in the area have given the okay to do that. when i spoke to him, though, he expressed the concern about what the president's motive of coming here to pennsylvania, a key battleground scene is during this time. take a listen. >> i know president trump is coming in. is he campaigning? is he saying thank you to the medical facility out of sincereness of his heart? i don't know. but i just know that he is coming here and hopefully it doesn't create a mass hysteria. i know that pennsylvania is a stomping ground for him and that

he won last time and he's looking to win again. but again, we're in a season of elections, so what's the motive? >> reporter: trump obviously won pennsylvania by just over a point in 2016. he's currently polling behind joe biden. so it does present an interesting time for him to come visit the state. business owners in the area telling me they really want to focus on bringing back the economy just like the president does because each small business in this area supports the small business that's right next door. so as this pandemic continues and numbers start to decrease ever so slightly in this battleground state, business owners are ready to get back to work. brian and nicolle. >> nbc's maura barrett, thank you for spending time with us. joining us now, congresswoman madeline dean who represents pennsylvania's fourth district in the southeastern part of the state. congresswoman, i worked in a white house. if you really want to thank people in a factory for their

vital work of making gowns and masks and things that kept front line health care workers safe, you could set up a zoom call like the rest of america. what do you think is behind this really not essential travel? as brian and i talk about all the time, moving the president requires thousands of people to be in motion. >> and putting people at risk. thank you for having me on today, nicolle. i'm proud to represent this southeastern portion of suburban philadelphia where we've been particularly hard hit. what do i think is behind the president's movements tomorrow to lehigh valley right north of here? sadly to me it looks like a thinly-veiled campaign event. his events that are going on at the white house in the rose garden are not going so well for him. he's put forward an incoherent, lacking cohesion policy. he's responsible for deadly denial and deaths, sadly, by deflecting and blaming others.

so i think they're just trying to get on the road, take him on the road for a campaign event. as you say, the safer thing to do would be to sincerely thank this manufacturing facility and not put anybody at risk. >> congresswoman, brian and i start this hour every day with the latest numbers of the infections in this country and the people who have lost their lives. i know it's much more than a number for you. you have lost a loved one. tell us what this disease is like and what it does to families. >> i want to start with the numbers, too. the gravity of it here in pennsylvania, we have had nearly 4,000 deaths. i represent montgomery county and berks county. in montgomery county we have had 556 deaths, and one of those numbers is my own mother-in-law joan. in berks county, another 179

dead. what does it mean? it means there are heroes taking care of our loved ones as we cannot be near them. my mother-in-law was taking care of joan, originally from scranton, a wonderful woman who became sick with covid a little more than two weeks ago. the wonderful workers at her very small nursing home putting themselves at risk for not a lot of pay kept us in touch, literal wli did face time calls with us like i do with my own grant grandchildren. we did a zoom call with the whole family later as it became very apparent that she was not going to survive. they moved her to a window near the patio so we could actually go over and see her just a couple of times before she died. they kept her comfortable and at peace. but families like mine and families in broader, greater ways are suffering. this is not a joke.

these are not numbers. when we say 80,000 people in this country have died of covid in a matter of eight or nine weeks, these are human beings. these are families disrupted and not able to appropriately be next to their loved one, not able to appropriately mourn or bury their loved one. i take it very personally. i call upon the president to stay home, stay out of the way and pay attention to the guidelines that my governor has put forward, governor wolf, and the guidelines of his own team and let us do our work. we've headed back to d.c. to drive more aid to the people who are suffering, to the people who are suffering the public health crisis, but also the people who are suffering the economic crisis. >> congresswoman, i'm sorry for your loss and i note your sadness and your anger, and the prediction is we'll be at 100,000 dead, 100,000 souls

vanished by the end of next week. i tend to believe that most americans are doing the right thing. most americans don't want to get this. it's not so much that they're following an order. they don't want to get this. but i'm wondering where the sadness and the anger is the type of which you display, if we take, god forbid, 100,000 people, reverse contact tracing, think of all the lives they affected, all the loved ones they leave behind. you think our country would be saddened and angered to the point of wanting, demanding the science, the doctors, the scientists to come forward and let's hear from them and only them. >> you know what, brian? we do have that. we have powerful good people, whether it's in the administration here in the wolf administration, in my own county

government, we're led by a physician. while we're hard hit, we've had smart voices and eyes on this. unfortunately the president has gotten in the way and confused people. a lot of people around here have gone through an awful lot of sacrifice to stay home, to stay in, to do the distancing. we've been told we need to test, test, test, isolate, contact trace and then get to treatment and blessedly a vaccine. in the meantime, the government has the responsibility to not get in the way of that. sadly this president has. i say listen to the heroes, listen to the helpers and to your point, brian, think of it. 10 100,000 people plus have lost their lived, the ripple effect across families. the inability to be near them is extraordinary. what i want to focus in on is my own work. i'm very fortunate to be a

member of congress at this critical time. we're going back down to washington as you know to pass what is being named the heroes act. i'm proud to be a part of that. three things that are in that. one thing reflects some of my concern about nursing homes. these folks are on the front line and they're underpaid and at great risk. they're heroes, they need a pay increase. another part, a bill i have proposed is actually part of the c.a.r.e.s. act -- excuse me -- of the heroes act i hope we'll pass on friday. that will give direct relief to student borrowers, $10,000 worth of direct relief to student borrowers. i hope we'll drive more money to the smallest of businesses so they can stand our communities back up when it is safe to do so, not prematurely. also, we need to get more direct cash to individuals, to families, to students, to folks who are simply, through no fault of their own, had their lives and livelihoods completely disrupted.

>> we will be monitoring all that. we hope you'll come back and talk to us about your efforts there. representative madeline dean of pennsylvania, again, we're so sorry for your loss. thank you for talking to us about this. thanks for spending time with us today. >> thank you both. brian, what a day. paul manafort out of jail. people keep dying. the judge in mike flynn's case. you couldn't have made this up, right? unbelievable. >> all you need to do is listen to the humanity and the sincerity of one of 535 elected members of congress right there. in our own small, msnbc family today, dr. joseph fair, one of the virologists on the air with us, one of the explainers of this illness, famously did a video in new york city early on telling us all about surfaces and ex-hall lags and air

contact, he's hospitalized with covid-19. among the more careful people, and i have to say personally, when we had him on the set back in the old days when we were in actual studios, one of the first people to decline politely to shake my hand when i welcomed him during a commercial break. one of the first people to say this is our new normal, we have to stop doing this. we're thinking of him today. we're thinking of the congresswom congresswoman's family member, her mother-in-law. i happily hand the happy mess over to you. i'll be watching you for the next 90 minutes or so. >> thank you, my friend. we'll see you later tonight. coming up, the scary and mysterious covid symptoms showing up now in children. we'll talk to a pediatrician who tells us what parents need to know to keep their kids safe. that's next. that's next. at carvana, we understand that, for some, getting a car just can't wait. to help, we're giving our customers

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we turn to the most certain thing there is. science. science can overcome diseases. create cures. and yes, beat pandemics. it has before. it will again. because when it's faced with a new opponent, it doesn't back down - it revs up. asking questions 'til it finds what it's looking for. that's the power of science. so we're taking our science and unleashing it. our research, experts and resources. all in an effort to advance potential therapies and vaccines.

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a rare and deadly inflammatory syndrome likely related to coronavirus is on the rise this week. more than 100 children in 14 states and washington, d.c. have developed the illness which causes severe inflammation of the coronary arteries. the vast majority of cases are in new york where at least five children are known to have died. symptoms include prolonged fever, severe abdominal pain, diarrhea or vomiting, patchy blue or pale skill, difficulty

breathing, lethargy and rapid heart rate. doctors say identifying the illness which acts much like toxic shock syndrome or kawasaki disease can be difficult because many children don't show the typical respiratory symptoms associated with coronavirus. now the cdc is working on a standard definition of the illness so health practitioners know what to look out for. joining us to talk about it, dr. michael anderson, pediatric critical care physician and president of ucsf benny yok children's hospital in san francisco. i have an 8-year-old, is i come at this not just adds someone covering it but as every parent and grand apparent in america, scared for their kids and for all we don't know. can you tell us what we do know and what we should do to protect our families? >> sure, nicolle. thanks so much for having me. i think it's cause for concern but certainly not panic. we know what we think is this post inflammatory disease called

kawasaki, typically occurs in the fall where you see kids who have infections and a rare, small percentage develop this autoimmune or inflammatory disease. what we're seeing in a post covid era, we thought for the last couple months kids were not affected by this. we didn't see large numbers of kids in the intensive care unit or large numbers of kids having the pulmonary disease. two weeks ago we started to get reports out of the uk and italy, it looks like two to three weeks after a peak, we're seeing children, once again rare, small numbers of kids overall, come in with a fever and a rash and even smaller percentage of kids get very, very sick from this. they develop, as you said, coronary artery problems, low blood pressure. as you pointed out, i think the most important thing is we get word out to the pediatricians, to the emergency rooms across the country of what they should be looking out for. >> i don't have to tell you

because you're on the receiving end of those phone calls that come in from parents at all hours, but i think it's my sense that this could dramatically alter the debate about school openings. what's your censor what would your recommendation be about sending kids back to school in the fall? >> that's a really good point. obviously dr. fauci started to address that a little bit yesterday as well. first i would say that your relationship with your pediatrician is really important now. we know that across the country a lot of people are scared to come in to doctor's offices, so we've got to make sure that our families feel comfortable reaching out to pediatricians and talking about important things like this. number two, we have to realize this is very rare. it's a small number of kids that have been infected by this. we've seen cases in detroit and cleveland. so i think families need to first and foremost feel comfortable talking with their pediatrician about this and

second realize it's a small number of kids. the third thing i would say to hopefully bring comfort to families is, although this is new and it's scary and we're learning every day -- you pointed out at the beginning of medicine is really accelerating thinking about this disease, coming up with a case definition, coming up with how to treat it. we used drugs like ibig, a great majority of kids seem to respond. i know it's scary that it's out there. it's rally important that our families feel comfortable talking with their physicians about this and any other concerns they're having. >> what if you don't have that pediatrician on stand by for your family. this is a disease that disproportionately hits people with late access, if you're at home and you're looking at your baby or your child, what should you be looking out for? >> yeah, it's a really great

question. fever is one of the most important things we have to be concerned about. so i say if a child a has a fever and rash and you don't have access to a pediatrician that can do a tele-visit with you it's probably time to seek out emergency room care. we want to make sure these kids are identified as quickly as possible, that they're at the right institution as quickly as possible. the great majority of kids do well from this, but they've got to get therapy quickly. i think is a time, if you've got a fever and a rash, either your primary care doc or you're going to the emergency room. >> i have 17,000 more questions for you as every parent in america, can i ask you to come back tomorrow or another day? there are so many new. fears and new questions and i think the only thing more daunting to moms and dads

working and teaching homeschool is the idea of not sending their kids back to school. people want to know really what the risks are to our kids and whether they're carrying this asymptomatically. there are so many questions. i hope we can have you back tomorrow or another day that works for your schedule in. >> nicolle, i'm on call for you 24/7. i'll end by saying this, it's scary but modern medicine but government is working 24/7, we'll get through this together. >> months from now, you'll regret telling me that you're on call 24/7 because i'm one of those people who's going to take you up on that. thank you so much for spending some time with us. we'll call on you again. to our viewers, we'll be back after a quick break. a quik because only tempur-pedic adapts and responds to your body...

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credibility crisis built on donald trump's legacy of telling more than 18,000 lies since he took office. campaigns to push unproven drugs to treat coronavirus. the whole the why don't we inject bleach. it's the science and the scientists not donald trump and his spin that's moving public opinion when it comes to the debate over reopening. startling new headlines today suggests that americans are prepared to spend many months, or longer, in our new socially distanced normal despite donald trump's push to reboot the economy. cal state university the largest four-year university system in the country is preparing students at its 23 campuses to go virtual. at least through the fall semester. news that's rattling students and parents amid questions about whether children of any age will go back to school as usual come fall. a new poll out this morning from the washington post and the

university of maryland shows that a full two-thirds of the country believe it won't be safe to gather in public until july at the earliest. that's up from 45% making that prediction a month ago. half of the country thinks it will be even later than that. quarter of americans guessing we won't see groups of ten or more in public until at least next year. that's the real mood in the country that donald trump is trying to sell on a steady and swift march back to work despite an ongoing lack and shortage of widespread testing. that's the backdrop against which the warnings from dr. anthony fauci landed. he cautioned that moving too quickly could not only threaten lives but threat on the economy, too, and in a sign that americans may be putting stark in his new warnings that donald trump, "the new york times" notes this, dr. fauci remarks appeared to rattle the markets. driving the s&p 500 as investors

weighed the potential of a second wave of infections. so intertrump's parade of allies in the right-wing media who apparently picked up on the significance of dr. fauci's reactions. across several hours of fox news last night, responded to the latest public health guidance by waging war on tony fauci. >> is toni fauci is right about the science. this guy fauci may be even more offbased than you're average epidemiologist. massive restrictions with no end in sight. no secret either that dr. fauci like so many others have been wrong, a lot. >> with all due respect to dr. fauci's expertise, no one

elected him to anything. is this the guy to whom you want to invest all of your trust? >> is this the guy you want to chart the future of the country? maybe not. this is a very serious matter the decisions we're making right now. dr. fauci hasn't been elected to anything. some think he should be dictator for the duration of this crisis. that's insanity. >> keep in mind they all work with a network associated with fox business network who had to remove some hosts because of their coronavirus coverage. a member of donald trump's own party, liz cheney tweeting this last night. dr. fauci is one of finest public servants we have ever had. he's not a partisan. his only interest is saving lives. all americans should be thanking

him every day. a reminder to those who want to talk the scientists on the frontlines of this battle, isn't politics. more than 1.3 million americans infected and the nearly 84,000 moms, dads, grandparents and yes, children lost in america. that's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. dr. ckavita patel. also joining us politics editor for the daily beast sam stein and phil rucker. i don't know where to start with that fox news montage, fox not only has played with fire but been singed with reckless commentary on their air. kayleig mcenany with trish

regularian, coverage like that got trish regan sidelined. have touted unproven drugs for which there are fda warnings for a couple of them. last night going after tony fauci, while it was predictable was still an abhorrent and pretty brazenly political effort to see. >> yeah, it's remarkable, nicolle, how much dr. fauci and the rest of the scientific and medical community have been turned into partisan players by the president and by his allies. and it speaks to the divide in this country. but we should keep in mind who anthony fauci is, he's not an obama holdover, he was a bush holdover before that and he was a clinton holdover before that. he's served six presidents. he's not a partisan appointee, but he's a scientist at. of his field who's been guiding this country's research on

crises that we have had for decades. he's trying to guide the administration here in washington as well as all the governors around the country trying to figure out what to do in their state with the best science and data that he can come up with. unfortunately for him he's run into a buzzsaw of political operation trying to discredit him. >> dr. patel, i think one of the things that is emerging and is very clear from all of the public polling is that he's dealt himself out of influencing a lot of public opinion around this and that might be a good thing if you think it's dangerous to inject bleach to clean your lungs. let me read some of the polling. tell me if this is a bright spot for you. 86% of americans think it's necessary to stay six feet frapt

from other americans. 78% of americans think it's necessary and important to stay at home as much as possible. 75% think it's important to avoid people you don't live with. i looked at all of these four behaviors, all of them with 75% to 86% public support, not one of them is a behavior that donald trump engages in regularly. he doesn't wear a wear, he's got his whole team at the office not at home. he's around those white house staffers every single day. those four measures have a public support. not one that trump engages in. >> absolutely right, nicolle, yes, it's a bright spot but it speaks to the fact that almost every american either knows somebody or has two degrees of separation from somebody who's been affected by covid-19. it's incredibly real. as we're trying to figure out how to reopen safely, it's of

the utmost importance to remember that you can't have an economic recovery without being healthy and i think americans have voted that and unfortunately for president trump, all you have to do is look at his own close west wing staffers who are now wearing masks and were scared when they found out just the tip of the iceberg with positive cases inside the west wing or executive office building, you have to look at the staffers that want to take the precautions themselves except for the president. >> your thoughts and your reporting on this real fis sure between what most americans believe to be unfortunate reality, there's no partisan breakdown in what people want, everybody wants to be both to be safe and for the economy to come back, nobody wants the economic armageddon we're seeing as a result of the pandemic but this

effort to sort of divide people into -- i think it was weeks ago that bill barr said, people can't hide under their beds. bill barr obviously always a willing participant in trump's spin. the public didn't follow them at least as to this point in time. what do you make of where things are right now? >> well, two things. one is i i've been surprised how consistent the numbers have been in favor of, you know, increasing or continuing the public stay at home measures. there's no real massive appetite among the public to open up the economy. the protest at the state capitol aren't that well attended. people are taking it very seriously, that doesn't mean there's not a concerted effort predominantly among conservatives to make an issue out of these stay at home orders, to wreck the economy for trump's re-election purpose or

government over-reach. what has surprised me is the willi degree they're willing to go after anthony fauci. i i can say he's probably the smartest person i have ever interviewed. he has decades of experience in this field. more than that, he doesn't say he's de ee's dictatorial. he said i'm here to provide input for the politicians are. the fox news is creating a strongman, that's not the case, dr. fauci is making scientific-based recommendations. use these for a foundation at what you do at the local municipal level. that seems pretty straightforward for me and certainly would be for any conservative in another era, when you say we don't want the federal government to be making these decisions, we want them

made at the local. a lot of it is to get the attention point to draw viewers in and cynically increase ratings, honestly. >> increase ratings, phil rucker, or to hold on to trump's base for him. he's proven such an inept political actor during this time i don't know if it's sad or humorous trying to do the messaging for him. i want to ask you, phil, what's going on with plans that had been expected, reported to be expected from the cdc to help states make these decisions as liz cheney said in her tweet, as you said, at the top of the show, tony fauci has worked for presidents, reagan to george h.w. bush, then obama and then trump. the idea that he has relations out in the states would be a

faulty one from the president and fox news. the cdc was supposed to come out with some recommendation and the last we reported some cdc models and recommendations and projections had sort of died a quiet death once they made their way to the white house task force. >> nicolle, lot of states are actually waiting for those recommendations from the cdc in part because the guidelines that had been issued by the federal government through the white house a few weeks ago are so vague that they're leading governors to create their own rules and own guidelines for individual industries or sectors, what phases of the reopening could look like. they're looking for information from the cdc. our reporting for some time, those experts at the cdc traditionally would take the lead in pandemic response have been doing that work, have been

putting those guidelines together and they're not getting released by the white house because the white house has been taking the drafts from the cdc and then revising them to make them more vague. dr. redfield was one of the expert witnesses at the senate hearing yesterday and he said in response to a question from senator chris murphy who made this very point of states wanting more information, he said that new guidelines would be coming soon but he didn't give a date and how detailed those guidelines would be once they see the public light. >> you know, dr. patel, i wonder about something that dr. bright the whistle-blower who was the country's top scientists developing vaccines and possibly therapies for coronavirus.

he has lawyers, he's saying that his firing and removal from his post over to another government post is retribution. he's out with a warning, he predicts next winter will be the darkest in history, what do you make of those warnings and the fact they're so consistent? if you take all of the president's sort of spin, all of the science is pretty consistent that if we don't keep up the distancing, if we don't keep up the measures, i guess, we haven't bent the curve yet, kept it from spiking further we could be in for some difficult times. >> yes, absolutely. i can tell you, any of these leaders of offers, divisions, departments, they don't do things like put out statements that the fall or winter could be deadly or disastrous lightly, you can only imagine, nicolle, given the experience in government that people like dr. bright have had that to say something that actually tells

you how much underneath it was actually causing a leader like that to come forward and you have already seen not just in his statements but you've seen kind of proof about numerous attempts to get supplies, ppe, testing, just all of these botched efforts and i think all of this is telling us exactly as phil just stated that, you know, when people need real answers we're not getting them and it makes me sad because the cdc should be the one leading the metrics, the data collection, we should be hearing as often as we need to from these leading public health officials and career civil servants. i'll look forward to hearing how the public can take dr. bright's testimony and turn around the political pressure to get us to finally have a national response to this pandemic. >> dr. patel, what's your

understanding, i think the public maybe not paying attention to all the twists and turns of the political process that the cdc sends over models, they send over data and then the white house fusses around with them, makes them more vague, how would we -- i mean, does congress need to call the cdc -- they testified before congress yesterday, how do we find out what those cdc recommendations are to protect the states and to protect people? >> yeah, it's true as you know, you've covered the fact that even before the subcommittee in the house appropriations the administration made it clear they would not let officials testify, dr. fauci included, we as a public, as taxpayers, as citizens, it's our right to know what's happening. thankfully we have reporters trying to bring this to light. this isn't partisan. we need to understand the facts and the truth is we haven't had

enough testing or tracing. we just want facts. this isn't just a call for congress to do oversight hearings, these are public facts that we should have. we should know, nicolle, how many pediatric cases of covid-19 do we have. those are the questions that i hope the public will start asking as we hear more distress from leading scientists and officials. >> sam stein, you heard the doctor, it's all on you, reporters to get to the bottom of this. so far that has been the case. investigative journalism has underneath a lot of this. dr. patel is talking about a story that's been kept me up at night this new syndrome in children, how do you think the new science that's being reported largely by media outlets, andrew cuomo in new york state has put a face as a public official disseminating health information as he does

every day at his press briefing about the first death in his state due to this new syndrome being identified in children, how do you think this new syndrome in kids will affect the debate about school reopening? >> i mean, how could it not? it's weird for me to report on this story as a parent to two young kids because i'm living it simultaneously. one thing i'm fascinating by -- one thing that's been interesting is how little we still know about covid-19. even just when you look at the world that children play, obviously, mortality rates are much smaller than the elderly, but we don't know, you know, with full confidence how children operate as vectors for the disease. what type of precautions would be necessary to reopen schools. we're trying to find out these small variables that would

affect our decisionmaking. japan was taking these extraordinary safety measures for each kid going into the classroom. i don't think we have the infrastructure and financial commitments at the schools to implement those kind of measures. it involves machinery, investments. there's a huge amount of unknown that's out there and i think that's what really you know the predominant theme in the much political debate. one of the reasons why people remain so hesitant to reopen economies, to reopen schools to go back out there is because there's so much uncertainty around what's going on with this virus and government hasn't been able to fill in those questions. that's why you see trump struggling here, his role is to give certainty, a little bit of confidence and he has not done that since the beginning of this. >> sam stein, dr. kavita patel,

phil rucker, thank you for starting us off with more questions than answers. when we come back -- a federal judge trying to check the power of the department of justice, will he be successful? we'll look at this extraordinary step in the latest saga on the trump/barr sideshow on justice. plus, the trump campaign is trying to court african-american voters, a tough road even before the pandemic, how the virus is getting in the way of that 2020 effort. all those stories coming up. sto. and ancestry can help you discover it. you could find new details in minutes. see photos from your family's past.

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get ready to hear a whole

lot about this man, judge emmett g. sullivan, he's the federal judge who will decide whether attorney general barr's power grip deep into the case involving the president's former national security adviser mike flynn will be dismissed. part of barr's crusade against the former doj includes undermining the career federal prosecutors who brought the case against flynn. one flynn affirmed under oath in judge sullivan's courtroom. one career prosecutor quit when barr intervened. judge sullivan has now taken the rather extraordinary step by asking for briefs or legal inputs for lawyers not representing the defendant or the justice department. now that's the only develop today. trump's acting director of

national intelligence has declassified a list of obama's national security officials involved in pointing out it was flynn who was talking to the russians during the transition. today, grenell passed along the list to trump allies in senate pledging to move forward with investigations. also in the president and his fellons reporting today, paul manafort has been released from prison. he'll serve at least of his sentence in home confinement. to talk us through it all, mike schmitt and chuck rosenberg. mike, take us through judge sullivan's rather unconventional move by taking briefs from other individuals. has he done that before and what was the outcome?

>> chuck rosen begg, i think we lost mike, do you want to take that one, judge sullivan has done this once before, is that right? >> well, it's very unusual normally in a criminal case, you don't hear from anyone other than the attorneys from the defendant, to invite in friends of the court to on pine about what ought to happen is something i have never seen, nicolle. the other interesting question, what does judge sullivan do all of this? what does he do with that? >> has he ever been at a crossroads before? we talked about this before on the day that barr made clear his intention to drop the case, the mike flynn prosecution between the conviction and the sentencing, is there any precedent or is this the

judicial branch having to innovate around what's unconventional conduct on the part of barr's doj. >> it's unconventional conduct by the doj. i have never seen what bill barr did, intervening in a case where the defendant has already pled guilty. concocted reason, the notion that there was no materiality that flynn's lies didn't matter, they weren't important, i think that's nonsense. now it's on the judge whether or not to dismiss the case. he has three options. he can't prosecute the case, he can only rule on the motion in front of him. there are three options -- grant the dismissal, and then the case is over, but he can grant the dismissal in one of two ways with prejudice, the case could never be brought back any administration at any time or without prejudice, another administration could re-file

charges. or just deny the motion. i don't know what he's going to do but knowing judge sullivan i think it's going to be pretty painful for the government he'll want a very good reason for -- to understand why the government did what it did. i'd like to know, too, because it completely baffles me why the barr justice department would have moved to dismiss the case against flynn. to me it was a very clear case of lying to the fbi, for material reasons, which is illegal. >> you're write in a piece that you recently published, among the people who believe it was material was the president and the vice president, so is there -- i mean, barr's argument for dismissal seems to be undermined by the president he so faithfully serves. >> the point i made in that article, nicolle, was that the president fired mike flynn for lying to the vice president. so this must have mattered to the president. in fact, if you look at the

mueller report, there's a notion, not even a notion an indication that the president was very angry about this. in fact, his former chief of staff priebus told the mueller investigators that the president was angry. it mattered to him. it was material to the president and the vice president because the vice president said he had been lied to by flynn and that president trump did the right thing in firing him. all of a sudden, it's no longer material, that to me is a red flag. we ought to be very concerned about why the attorney general took this position and i think judge sullivan's going to want to understand that and that's why i think this hearing, albeit unprecedented is going to be quite interesting. >> all right, speaking of red flags, rick grenell, a staunch political supporter of donald trump's, has declassified of a former government official looked like the distribution list of the senior national security officials who would

have been privy or senior inept to see intelligence, the most sort of sacred and secret kind of intel about russia. that's the only reason that list would include the people that's on it. listening to kisylak, listen to what the russians were up to, that's how they heard this conversation possibly with mike flynn. is there anything else afoot in this declassification of a list that looks like a distribution list for some of the most sacred and secret intel about russia? >> right. well, so i can think of a nefarious reason, we talked about it a lot, the trump administration trying to exact revenge on enemies perceived and real, mostly preserved. there's a nonnefarious reason,

john durham respected prosecutor out of connecticut has an investigation perhaps of a leak to the washington post in december of 2017, leaked cases are extraordinarily hard to prove. the person who leaked the information and the reporter who received and printed the information, tend not to talk. so, one way you try and find out who may have leaked the information is to find out who had access to the information. if that's what they're doing -- and that's all they're doing and they're not trying to exact revenge or play games that's a potential legitimate reason, if it's anything else it could be nefarious and that's what troubles me the pattern we see with this administration. >> sadly, that's true. chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for spending some time with us. after the break, donald trump might be losing what little ground he had with a key

demographic, a conversation about the pandemic's effect on the election now five and a half months away. next. months away. next nice. way more unique fixtures and tiles. pairing. ♪ nice. way more top brands in sinks and faucets. way more ways to rule your renovation. nice! on any budget, with free shipping. wayfair. way more than furniture. ♪

29% votes cast by african-american voters. donald trump won 8%. his re-election team appeared intent on changing that. then the pandemic hit, two things happened, african-americans have been hit hard dying at decision proportion ately rates. in the "the new york times," quote, mr. trump has only fleetingly addressed the effects on tblack americans. taken together his lack of

response with political overtures, have cast into sharper relief the insensitivity about the unique concerns facing black americans. the number, the percentage of black americans who give the government negative marks is 79 pblgt. again, much higher than white or latino americans. giving us our conversation is democratic strategist. you know, this beyond obvious. the donna, the audacity part of this story, donald trump thought he could have a case to make. the idea he's governed that he would appeal to the economic despair and challenges of african-american communities especially in light of the last

nine weeks and the health disparity, as "the new york times" points out has only addressed fleet ingly. >> donald trump has really stepped into it here because in addition of the health disparities, a majority of african-americans believe he's a racist. let's start there. in addition to that, even in the distribution of the funding going to small businesses, african-american businesses have been notably absent from the recipient pool and that weighs on the community as well. and on top of that, the trump administration, president trump right now is trying to on literate obamacare, you add those things together and i don't know what the president is shooting for, maybe it's that margin, you know, one or two enpercent, but the challenge really for democrats is going to

be to build on hillary clinton's 88% which was less than president obama's 92% to make sure that we don't lose ground with african-americans, that black americans don't become discouraged with democrats to be able to blunt whatever it is that trump is trying to do. >> you know, there are some evidence in the exit polls from the primaries that have taken place that joe biden is doing just what donna describes outperforming hillary clinton's numbers among african-americans, especially with that big victory in south carolina that really propelled his, you know, second act if you will in the democratic primary process. to all of donna's points, what would you add in terms of not just trump's vulnerables but perhaps joe biden's advantages? >> what's interesting is when you look at all of the large

push donald trump and his republican allies have been enga engag engaged, with mail-in votes as a result of this virus, their opposition to that, governor desantis in florida has been pushing for the 1.4 million formally incarcerated who had their rights restored now pay back bonds in order for them to go out and vote. those stands in contrast to any efforts the president made -- may undertake to try bring more african voters into the fold. and look, if i'm a black voter, i don't think of donald trump is part of the ideological lineage of george pataki or jack kemp, even if you disagreed with them from a partisan standpoint they did make some effort to reach out to african-american

community. this president doesn't do that in fact stand with people that goes to a subway restaurant with a rocket launcher. so, i don't know if there's anything that he can do at this point to try to build up his numbers. in fact what i do see is joe biden, who's taking a vested interest in those very specific policies that have created the kind of disparities that we have seen with this virus across multiple policy areas and that's what i think is bolstering him. as the former congresswoman said, i do hope that there's a broader sort of impact that has on a voter with their party. >> donna, how do you -- how do you think that joe biden should orient his campaign to be

responsive not just in contrast to donald trump but to be responsive to what's happening to african-americans, i mean, mayor lightfoot said it in chicago the rate of infection and death of african-americans is upward of 60%, is there a need to turn not just in defense and to sort of stop donald trump from gaining any political ground, a serious policy matter to turn our attention to the response to this virus to communities of color? >> well, i think it's a real opportunity for joe biden to reach out to black voters in a way that can amplify his already strong support and is that lays out policies and programs that he would enact as president of the united states. to address the healthcare disparities that we see. we have this pandemic.

not like those disparities didn't exist long before covid-19. a real opportunity for the former vice president to be proactive and clearing up those disparities, in terms of distribution of money into black communities to strengthen small businesses so that you can strengthen employment. a whole lost of things i think that the former vice president is in great position to do that it's not just saying, not donald trump. you know, i want to add one thing to the list you know that we have already been through. i totally had forgotten just this week, they forced the rez th resignation of the highest ranking black guy at the postoffice that would implement mail-in. >> basil. >> i agree with everything that's been said. like i said before, this is

not -- this is not a president who's interested in getting black votes, he's interested in getting black talking points and african-american voters are not low information voters. they're very smart. they're very savvy voters. they're not going to go for it. >> basil, donna, always so much more ground to cover. thank you both for joining us today. after the break, it's not out of the question to say that life may never be the same again. a quick look at the new normal, next. i don't keep track of regrets and i don't add up the years,

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that should clear things up. most of us lucky enough to do our jobs at home has been two months. for twitter employees this may be their permanent normal. in a statement the company says, quote, enables to work from home and they want to continue to do so forever we'll make that happen. if many companies follow in twitter's footsteps, cities like new york will be forced to reckon with a new normal. the "the new york times," quote, companies were forced from the crisis to function properly with workers from 4078. they're now wondering whether it's worth continuing to spend money on the manhattan's exorbitant rents.

joining us now is msnbc's very own david gura. we have been talking about what the new normal look like. >> yeah, absolutely. you know, twitter's decision is interesting because we're in the middle of this cultural and economic sea change as you described it and twitter out of the gate was pretty early on saying people can work from home. when you talk about a city like new york, you look at the financial service companies, we're talking about millions of square feet and thousands of people who work for those companies and have come in day in and day out, if that were to change that's a whole lot of vacancy, i took a drive up madison avenue this week, it's totally empty of commerce as well. a glimpse of what these cities

might look like. as you think this through, people working from home, what does that mean of culture of workplaces, nbc has its own culture, how do you maintain that when you have so many people working all over, childcare is such a huge phenomena that we have to deal, working from home and working from home full time while you're taking care of kids. it can't be seen as an equal thing. it's not apples to apples if you're still watching your kids full time. >> indeed. i want to ask you about the differences between this reckoning and the post-9/11 reckoning. it feels altogether differently. the attacks on the world trade center, people who went to work felt trauma for a very long

time. any sense, any analysis of why that's the case? >> i've been thinking through these counterfactuals, what if this this were to happen 10 to years ago and we didn't have the kind of internet connectivity that we have right now, could as many people have worked remotely? probably not. and jay powell, the fed chair talked about how he doesn't think now and many economists don't think now that the economy is going to recover as quickly as they would like it to. that complicates things a lot. in your intro, you talked about the anxiety that people will have commuting back to the city, still worried about the public health effects of this. there's still so much unknown, so much uncertainty surrounding this, how quickly this virus will be mitigated, how quickly a vaccine will be made available. that's something that makes this more differently than 9/11. and on the issue of that counterfactual, i was thinking, if a company said i want to make -- we would like to let

workers work from home, there would be so much that went into that decision making that didn't happen this time around. this was a real baptism by fire. this happened, people were sent home and we had to make it work. and we tried out different technologies and to an extent, we're still doing that. that's a fundamental difference between now and what may have happened before. our willingness to try it and do our best we can to make this work, nicole. >> this is a conversation you and i are going to have on a regular basis, what the new normal looks like. and one of the hallmarks of a new normal is this video that you posted last night on twitter. my son, who takes violin lessons himself, couldn't believe that i knew you when i played this for him. so, silver linings, right, we got to see david gura rock our world. >> there you go. >> thank you, my friend, for spending some time with us. i love that. >> nice to see you. >> always a pleasure, thank you. >> after the break, a renowned new york voter veterinarian and

a woman with a passion for noise, laughter, and family celebrating lives well lived. that's next. y celebrating lives well lived that's next. ♪

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dr. julie butler's daughter told "the new york times" her mom lived by a principle. one built into the very fabric of who she was. that, quote, if you have it to give, you give. dr. butler gave everything. she took over the 145th street animal hospital in harlem on april 1st, 1989. it was a tough neighborhood. the building next door was apparently a drug house. the receptionist sat behind protective glass. and yet, that's where she stayed, working long hours serving her community for three decades, right up until she died of coronavirus last month. her husband told npr she was, quote, just different. dr. butler mentored young people. she co-founded a nonprofit designed to help those in need

get money for emergency pet care. and according to people who would know, she was a great mom. now in devastating fashion, she joins a growing list of people irreplaceable in their families and in their communities taken from us too soon by coronavirus. our thoughts today are also with the family of corrina kneier. brain damage at birth left her with special needs, but never took from her a love of life. her brother, rory kneier, a movie actor you might recognize from the recent james bond films wrote about her in if gau"the guardian." his tribute was an appeal, we should invest in the lives of those that will continue to need them most. we'll leave you with the way rory describes his sister, quote, corrina was ebb ewe lent, brave, and wry, with a passion for noise, laughter, family, and chaos. and those who engaged with her, knew her, loved her, were

rewarded beyond their imagination by her friendship and trust. they grew to learn inexorably and unalterably that our spirits exist far more tang apply than our abilities. what a lesson. what an inspiration. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. it's a privilege we don't take lightly. our coverage continues with chuck todd right after a break. chuck todd right after a break or from the things they love to do? with right at home, it doesn't. right at home's professional team thoughtfully selects caregivers to help with personal care, housekeeping, meals - and most of all, staying engaged - in life. oh, thank you, thank you. you're welcome. are you ready to go? oh, i sure am. we can provide the right care, right at home. we turn to the most certain thing there is. science. science can overcome diseases. create cures.

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welcome to wednesday. it is "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd continuing msnbc's breaking news coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. are we opening too fast? it's perhaps the most important question in america right now, and the president has at times sought to make it a political question. but there is new data on the spread of this virus that may cause him to rethink that strategy. the geographic and therefore