viewers, two quick reminders. number one, barack obama warned incoming president donald trump not to hire flynn. number two, chris christie who, despite having locked up jared's daddy in federal prison, was as loyal a member of the trump circle at that time, warned the president-elect that general flynn was, quote, a walking car crack. and then director brennan, i wanted you to react to this. former fed who's now fiaffiliat with yale law school tweeted, i love that the foreign intelligence the nsa was monitoring can reverse engineer the channels they were using on the dates they were in contact with flynn that was just released by the dni and if they are still using those channels, stop. she puts it, so that's fun. any reaction from you, director brennan? >> i just think that what

mr. grenell and others are doing now raises some serious questions about the ongoing capabilities, focus of the intelligence and law enforcement community. if they are being manipulated at the very top for political purposes, who knows what is happening as far as our defenses against these determined efforts on the part of our enemies. as we have talked about the upcoming november election, how the russians and others are going to seek to try to once again interfere and influence the outcome, i just am very concerned that some of those at the very top are not going to fulfill the duties that are entrusted to them by the american people. i'm just hoping that individuals like chris wray who is a remarkable public servant, will continue to stay strong in the face of this type of abominable abuse of authority. >> our thanks to former cia

director john brennan for taking our questions at this hour. another break for us and when we return, the state of wisconsin in something of chaos after the state supreme court struck down the governor's order to stay home, as you see bars opened up and were quickly filled up, and that drastic move by the court was cheered on by none other than the president of the united states. e united states (announcer) in this world where people are staying at home,

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it's going to be up to the

governors. we're going to work with them. we're going to help them but it's going to be up to the governors. >> that was the president almost a month ago now telling the american people that individual governors have authority over their own states' response to this pandemic, until that is, they clash with his plan. just moments after wisconsin's stay-at-home order was struck down by the state supreme court, people did what they do. they bloflooded back to their ll taverns despite increasing cases of covid-19 across the country. social distancing did not seem to be a big priority among customers, nor did the wearing of masks. the wisconsin governor on this network last night said the only thing governing behavior now is common sense. he called his own state the wild, wild west. president trump celebrated the decision in a tweet last night write, that, quote, the democratic governor was forced by the courts to let the state open. the people want to get on with

their lives. joining us now, charlie sykes, long-time radio host, editor at large of the bulwark and the person we turn to when the subject is wisconsin. charlie, here we are again. we recognize that people will view this story differently depending on their politics, depending on their geography. we have two distinct groups of people in this country, one that views their patriotic duty to get out, the other that views their patriotic duty to stay in. tell us what's going on in wiscons wisconsin. >> those scenes that we saw last night out of plattville, out of other areas of the state where you had people flocking to the bars, no social distancing, no masking, this really did feel like you were watching the shattering of the social contract. look, there's a right way and wrong way to do this. you can do this systematically in phases or you can do it abruptly and chaotically. what the president did was to

weigh in on chaos because right now as a result of this, there are no state i'd rul-wide rules. some of the major counties do still have stay-at-home rules but what the court did was and everybody was kind of surprised by this, there was no stay in this ruling. it was immediate. the tavern league put out a memo saying that bars can re-open, and there you have it. you're seeing exactly the way people are responding. it is interesting how the president continues to send these cultural signals, don't behave responsibly, don't wear masks, it's okay to go back as if there is no pandemic. >> charlie sykes, i want to pull the thread on what you just said. the president has been cheering the protestors with that first round of tweets about liberating virginia and protecting their second amendment rights. his support of the protests in michigan was critiqued and

efforts to keep people not just home but socially distanced and even wearing a mask, i wonder what you think his responsibility is if people in wisconsin get sick. >> the same responsibility as everywhere else. the fact that the president rather than taking leadership and dealing with this as a public health crisis has really decided to go full culture warrior on all of this. i think these signals that he's sending clearly have an implication. in wisconsin this has become red versus blue, highly partisan. i think it's very likely that the republican legislature will now move to fire the state's top health official who issued the order to stay at home. it is that political, it is that partisan. but there's also then the implications for going ahead. if, in fact, he's telling people don't take the normal precautions, do not behave in a prudent way, don't listen to the

scientists, the medical profession professionals, the consequences could be horrible. in wisconsin we have been on a pretty good track. there have been more than 430 deaths, but i think we had ticked five of the six benchmarks that governor evers had. we were probably going to begin phased re-opening on may 26. the president is cheering on the most extreme, most irresponsible behavior. >> charlie sykes, our thanks as always. >> thank you, charlie. >> i didn't mean to step on you because we both feel the same about charlie sykes. >> i was the one staring longingly at people in bars. i was just going to say i wish they were sitting six feet apart with masks on and i would feel a whole lot better about it. sorry. >> we'll deal with the staring longingly at people in bars part a bit later on.

perhaps that was an overshare. charlie, thank you. nicolle, thank you for having me. >> thank you for spending some time with us. you always get something out of me that i wouldn't share with anybody else. it wasn't the people in the bar. i think charlie sykes has got his finger on the pulse of the culture war that donald trump is trying to stoke but i actually don't think it divides us. i think everybody wishes that anyone who wanted to go to a restaurant or bar could go back, and i think what's so abysmal and depressing isn't that people were back, it's that they weren't back safely. there was a way for them to be there last night. because of the supreme court ruling they had the right to be there, but they weren't wearing masks. they weren't even trying to sit far apart and that makes me nervous for them and nervous for their state. time will tell. thank you. >> reverses all the progress they just made. thank you. >> and look, i hope that's not the case but that's the worry. thank you, my friend. up next, the one witness

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president trump went back to his old playbook, shifting the blame and trying unsuccessfully to change the narrative, tweeting, quote, if i were a

senator or congressman the first person i would call to testify about the biggest political crime and scandal in the history of the usa is president obama. do it, lindsey graham, just do it. joining our conversation, illinois democratic senator tammy duckworth who has co-sponsored a bill that would expand absentee vote by mail to all states. senator duckworth, thank you for joining us. i wonder if there's anything to say or see in that tweet other than desperation. >> you said it. thanks for having me on. it's desperation. the president is doing anything that he can to try to divert people's attention from the fact of how miserably he's failed at leading this country during a global pandemic. we're coming up on over 80,000 americans who have lost their lives and it's because of his inaction and failure to lead this country.

>> senator, i just want to get your thoughts on some of the biggest headlines of the day. the president has turned pretty harshly negative against tony fauci after he testified that any decision about whether or not kids go back to school in the fall shouldn't overlook or seek to understand the impact of the pandemic on children. i have an 8-year-old. i'm watching the reporting about the cases of inflammatory syndrome associated to covid very closely, and i wonder what you think about the fact that that was the breaking point for donald trump with tony fauci. >> you would think that the president of the united states would be most worried about some of our most vulnerable populations including our children. i have a 5-year-old and a 2-year-old and i can't imagine that i'm going to be comfortable sending my 5-year-old to kindergarten this fall without adequate testing and knowing what the consequences are of some of these illnesses that are coming out that we're finding are linked to covid-19 in

children. so for the president to be more worried about himself and how he looks as opposed to listening to the scientists like dr. fauci when it comes to safeguarding our children, it's shameful on the part of president trump. >> one of your senate colleagues is today in the hot seat. the fbi raided the home of republican senator richard burr, the chairman of the senate intel committee no less. any thoughts about the kind of contact under scrutiny, and is it heartening that the fbi is pursuing any suspicions about potential crimes no matter the party affiliation. obviously this is someone with a mixed relationship with donald trump but still a pretty loyal ally of the trump white house. >> i hope the fbi does proceed in a completely independent manner and that they are allowed to proceed in an independent manner and that our attorney general does not step in as he

has so many times in so many other cases. i think this is one where let's just let the law enforcement folks do their jobs, get out of the way of the fbi and let them do a full investigation and then we'll see what they find out. >> what are your priorities as a member of the senate? what is -- what are the burning next steps in terms of relief for people who have lost their jobs and the testing problem which still hasn't been solved? you mentioned testing. i feel the same way about any possible conversation about school re-openings, but we both work in places where the idea of going back in without having daily testing available is almost inconceivable. >> my priorities are exactly that. we need to have widespread testing that's available, that's low cost or free because it's one thing to be donald trump inside the white house having unlimited access to testing. it's completely another situation to be the cashier at a

grocery store who is an essential worker who might be a single mom with two kids at home who's got to go to work and she doesn't have access to testing, or if it is available she's got to pay $50 for it or higher than that. so she's not going to be able to afford that. we need to make sure there's widespread low cost or free testing available and that's how our economy is going to be able to reemerge and how we're going to get back to i asense of normalcy so we'll know who's infected and who's not and we can also do contact tracing and track down folks who have been exposed to the virus. another thing that i'm working on is the newborn cares act which is going to allow families with babies born this year to be able to claim their $500 stimulus payment. they were not able to do that under the c.a.r.e.s. act as it was written because it was tied to the 2019 tax year and babies born this year are tied to 2020's tax year. i'm hoping that my newborn c.a.r.e.s. act will pass and we'll get help to the folks right now need help buying

diapers and formula and all those things that new parents have to deal with. >> so many burdens when you have a new child and such an important point. every grocery worker, every transit worker, everyone having to be out there involved in any of the infrastructure involved in getting any of us back to work should have access to free daily testing before we have a serious conversation about what that looks like. senator tammy duckworth, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we're grateful to see you. when we come back, one of our colleagues at nbc news who has helped us understand this pandemic from the very beginning is now battling what looks like his own case of covid-19. that's next. s own case of covid9 that's next. adversity came to town and said, "show me what you're made of." so we showed it our people, sourcing and distributing more fresh food than anyone... we showed it our drivers helping grocers restock their shelves. we showed it how we're donating millions of meals

to those in need. we showed it how we helped thousands of restaurants convert to takeout and pop up markets. and how we're encouraging all americans to take out to give back. adversity came to town. so we looked it right in the eye. and it won't be us... ...that blinks first.

overnight, they became our offices, schools and playgrounds. all those places out there are now in here. that's why we're still offering fast, free two day shipping on thousands of items. even the big stuff. and doing everything it takes to ensure your safety. so you can make your home... everything you need it to be. wayfair. way more than furniture. one of our expert analysts here at msnbc who has helped us understand and explain this pandemic is battling his own case of cove. virologist and science contributor joseph fair started feeling sick about two weeks ago

and thinks he contracted the virus on a crowded airplane even though he took precautions. here's some of what he told the "today show" this morning from his hospital bed. >> it started out on about a monday, my symptoms. by friday is when i started noticing that my lungs were becoming involved and that's typical with covid-19, that you develop kind of a walking pneumonia which is a secondary infection as a result of the virus which is bacterial. it progressively got worse over a few days and by monday i really couldn't take -- i was probably getting about 25% of the air i was trying to take in. it's a very anxiety provoking feeling. >> you said you might have gotten it through your eyes. tell us about that. >> it's one of the three known routes of getting this infection that you just don't pay a lot of attention to. we tend to focus on the nose and

mouth because that's the most common route. droplets landing on your eyes are just as infectious. of course i wasn't wearing goggles on the flight. in icu i was literally the only patient not intubated and my caregivers told me i was the only one they were able to speak to because i was the only one not intubated and kind of in either induced comas or just intubated and couldn't speak. so i've been very lucky. i exercise five to six days a week. if it can take me down, it can take anybody down. that doesn't mean to say it's going to kill you but it just really, you don't want to have it, that's all i can tell you. >> so scary. we are wishing our colleague, dr. joseph fair, a speedy and complete recovery. we look forward to having his expertise back on our air when he's up for it. coming up for us, donald trump picks a strategy to beat coronavirus. he's now attacking the

scientists. we'll see how that works out. "deadline: white house" next. 'lt "deadline: white house" next

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. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. alarm today on capitol hill and all across the country after a stark new warning from dr. rick bright, the country's top vaccine scientist turned whistle-blower appearing before lawmakers to describe the profound, ongoing threat posed by coronavirus, and new allegations that the trump

administration failed to protect the american people in the earliest days of the crisis and that they continue to fail in coordinating an adequate response now. dr. bright who says he was ousted from the department of health and human services for refusing to put, quote, politics and cronyism over science, testifying today that if we don't change course now, we might be too late. >> i believe we could have done better. i believe there are critical steps that we did not take in time and i'll never forget the email i received from mike bowen indicating that we are -- our n95 respirator supply was completely decimated, and he said we're in deep [bleep]. the world is, and we need to act. i pushed that forward to the highest levels i could in hhs and got no response. we did not forewarn people. we did not train people. all of those forewarnings and

educational opportunities for the american public could have had an impact on further slowing this outbreak and saving more lives. our window of opportunity is closing. if we fail to improve our response now, based on science, i fear the pandemic will get worse and be prolonged. without better planning, 2020 could be the darkest winter in modern history. time is running out because the virus is still spreading eve everywhere. >> the darkest winter in modern history, it's a warning that lingered in the chamber today as dr. bright went on to describe negligence by the trump administration to procure adequate equipment and implement a national strategy for distribution of supplies, treatments and vaccines, as coronavirus reached crisis levels, problems he says still persist today. though president trump and his administration have dismissed bright's accusation, calling him a, quote, disgruntled employee with an axe to grind after he was pushed out of his job,

bright's testimony does line up almost exactly with nearly half a dozen deeply reported accounts from multiple current and former officials detailing the failures to prepare for the pandemic that date back to the first days of trump's presidency. the solution, according to dr. bright, begins first and foremost with something that in ordinary times would seem simple. seek out the scientists and listen to their advice. >> we need to be truthful with the american people. americans deserve the truth. the truth must be based on science. we have the world's greatest scientists. let us lead. let us speak without fear of retribution. we must listen. each of us can and must do our part now. >> in ordinary times listen to the scientists would hardly garner a headline. it wouldn't be controversial advice, but these are such extraordinary times, and dr. bright's dire warnings come as trump as decided that the way

out of health and economic crisis facing the country is to attack top scientists like dr. bright and even dr. tony fauci and to cheer nonscientifically backed reopenings. trump's attack last night on dr. fauci came in response to fauci's suggestion that maybe we should learn a little more about the impact of the virus on kids before we make any decisions about re-opening schools. >> he wants to play all sides of the equation. i was surprised by his answer actually because, you know, it's just -- to me it's not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools. >> and in a new interview this morning, the president also smeared the motivation of those urging cautious re-openings. >> do you think your critics want you to keep it closed going into the election? >> yeah, i do. i do. i think it's a political thing in addition. i think -- >> they're saying you're putting money, business ahead of lives. >> no, no.

i think the people that want to see the right thing happen, they agree with me. we have to get our country re-opened. if it's up to some people, let's keep it closed for a long time, okay, a long time, and watch the united states go down the tubes. not going to happen. >> the president lashing out as the economic picture in this country becomes even grimmer. 3 million additional jobless claims added last week, bringing the unemployment total in the country to 36 million. 1.4 million cases of coronavirus in the u.s. are now logged and more than 85,000 americans have lost their lives. the outburst from the president amid dire warnings from scientists and historic joblessness in the country is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. dr. leana wen previously served as baltimore's health commissioner, plus former white house ebola response coordinator and now an adviser to joe biden, ron klain, and "new york times" white house correspondent peter baker.

peter baker, i don't know why i was shocked but i was to see trump go after fauci, and it is a similar pattern. fox news primetime anchors warm up the water for him and he dives right in. any fallout today on that attack against fauci's testimony before congress yesterday? >> well look, i think you're right, dr. fauci has credibility with the public that the president doesn't. all the polls show that many, many more americans trust what dr. fauci is telling them than trust what the president is telling them. i think that for one thing it irritates the president and for another thing dr. fauci is the one sort of standing in the way of the approach that the president would like to take which is a speedy and wholesale re-opening of the country as fast as possible. now, the president has to make decisions based on not just what one set of advisers tell him, what president trump's aides would tell you he has to look at

the big picture, the whole picture, the economy and the impact on jobs, unemployed, on poverty and businesses. the president has to take all these things into account which is probably true of any president but dr. fauci at this point has credibility that nobody else has and if people out there don't believe that the virus is under control, the economy will have a hard time re-opening to begin with. people won't want to go to work, go to school, go shopping, go to restaurants. so it's critically important, i think, for any president in this situation to earn the trust of the people so they can feel confident the decisions he's making here based on their best interests. >> ron klain, i'm guessing you're not -- you're skeptical that he's making decisions based on people's best interest, but peter baker is right. people are not going to go back if they think there's danger to their lives or their family's lives to do so. that's not a good economic plan

or a prudent family wellness plan. where do you think things are right now with this testimony today from dr. bright who my colleague, garrett haake, described perfectly. he's a government techno krat. i w0rorked in government. you worked in government. he's someone, to the degree that he's partisan, he's a scientist. his party is the data. his loyalty to the evidence and his frustration is that we didn't use the evidence or the data to educate the public about the coming pandemic. >> the economy is closed today not because of tony fauci but because of donald trump's incompetence and laziness. tony fauci stood up over a month ago in the white house briefing room and said here's the road map to re-opening the economy. that was get the number of cases down, get the testing in place, get people wearing masks. trump's done none of those things. if we're not re-opening, it's not because of anything tony fauci said. it's because of donald trump's

failure to act on that advice, instead to believe he can deny and tweet away this problem. this is on him. rick bright, i worked with rick bright on the ebola response. he's a consummate professional, and i think that what you're seeing here, his testimony, is just another example of how warnings were made and warnings were ignored. we're in this mess because the warnings were given and the actions weren't taken. that's backwards looking, nicolle. the problem is right now they're still not being fixed and these problems continue and that's why we're in this logger heads between the president and dr. fauci. >> dr. wen, you have written recently in an op-ed that you think we're in a different phase of this as a public, that we've missed a lot of the opportunities for containment. talk about where we are as a country. >> back to what ron was just saying, we actually know what it

takes in order to re-open safely. the white house outlined their own criteria and guidelines for doing so. if we know what it takes and we're knowingly ignoring these guidelines, then we're in essence saying that we're giving up on containment, that we had a chance to contain this virus and save lives but we're not going to do it. i find it hard the say because i can't quite believe that our government is doing this, but if we are, then at least be honest about it. at least admit that we are giving up on the strategy that we all thought was the case, that we're going to contain the infection, we're going to test and trace and isolate our way out of this. if that's no longer the plan, let's be honest about it and let's move on to what we know in public health to be harm reduction. if there's a behavior that's risky and we decided to do it anyway, the best that we can do is reduce the harm because that's our last and best chance to reduce the level of infections and save lives. i can't believe we're here but since we are, let's take those

necessary steps and figure out what are the things we can do to reduce risk to employees, to students, to everyone so that we can at least try to protect those around us. >> dr. wen, you have to tell us what those things are because you look at these pictures of people flooding into the bars in wisconsin after that state supreme court overruled or outlawed the stay-at-home orders. what are those things? he described his state as the wild, wild west. what are the things that reduce harm? >> i worry when i see these pictures. actually, i see in these pictures potential patients who might come into my er and their family members who they're going to be infecting. this is actually why we rely on the cdc for these guidelines, these guidelines that are not yet being issued. we rely on these guidelines to say, look, we don't think this is a good idea for restaurants and bars to be open, but if they're going to be open, are there some things that we can

do, are there things like checking the ventilation system. are there new standards for example for putting up plexiglass shields, for everyone to wear masks as much as possible, spacing things out six feet apart, start with opening outdoors spaces and then indoor spaces. if day camps and schools are going to be open, even if it's not the right thing to do, how can we keep it as safe as we can. >> ron klain, there's a little war of words going on about what the meaning of a playbook is, and you tweeted this. i've had people tweeting me in the last 24 hours. did the pandemic playbook really exist? was it really a clearly marked playbook? would it have helped. hers the cover and the table of contents. you decide. please explain. >> the other day senator mcconnell said that the obama administration had not left a game plan for the trump administration for dealing with something like that, and in fact, we had left a playbook. it was easy to tell that's what it was because it said on the

front in big red letters, playbook. then it had all the steps you needed to take, 69 pages of steps of what to do when the threat of a pandemic loomed. now, what's interesting is, nicolle, first everyone said no such document existed. today the white house press secretary said there was this document but it wasn't that good and we had our own document which contradicts the fact that trump's position until now has been no one saw this coming. now their position is we saw it coming, we rejected the obama playbook, we had our own playbook. ours was better. the only thing that's consistent is the excuse making from the white house. they've been fighting a war on facts. they're now fighting a war on fauci. they need to fight a war on disease. we left them the playbook to do that. they ignored the playbook and instead we have the disaster that we see. >> peter baker, your paper weeks ago did some of the most comprehensive investigative

reporting about the lost months, about the failures, about the team red dawn who sounded these early warnings. it would seem that everything that has happened since then has been an effort to find someone else to blame. he started with the world health organization. this week's target seems to be former president obama. what is the thinking inside the white house? is it the fact pattern as it stands today and as people understand it today is politically unsurvivable? >> they understand that this election this fall is going to turn on the president's response to this virus, and therefore he has to do two things. one, he has to shape the narrative so people believe that his response was adequate and aggressive. that's why you hear phrases like great success story from jared kushner and we made all the right moves from the president. the other thing they have to do, as you say, is to find somebody else to blame the fact that there are now 85,000 people dead. 85,000 people, to remind us, is more than we lost in the entire

vietnam war. that was 8 weeks rather than 8 years. so there are others to blame. there's china and there is plenty of questions to be asked about china's handling of this and whether they were as forthcoming as they should have been and whether they could have done things that would have prevented some of what we saw. there are questions to be asked about others, but you're right, i think he desperately would like to have somebody else to blame. president obama is this week's favorite target. you see him now talking about president obama and this michael flynn case and the russia investigations and trying to raise that issue front and center with the phrase obama-gate which is ill defined and never really substantiated with anything specific. so it's a trump strategy to make this a choice between him and the obama administration now represented by vice president biden as the democratic nominee, and rather than a referendum on president trump and how he has handled this. >> i don't mean to be sarcastic

here but does donald trump really think that in any corner of the country that he needs to swing his way again that obama is less popular or viewed as less competent or anyone thinks that this would have gone down worse on obama's watch than his? >> yeah, i understand the question. look, part of this of course is who you're targeting your messaging to. part of this obama-gate and the obama messages aimed at the core supporters that he wants to keep on his side, that he cannot get 271 electoral votes unless he starts off with the core voters that he brought to the table. he needs to give them something to focus on other than how he has handled this pandemic because polls show that even a lot of his own supporters have had questions about that, don't trust the information he's giving them, have not been happy about some of the delays and other things that have been documented by our colleagues. i think that, therefore, you start with that base and then reaching out to the people in

the middle has never really been his top priority. he's trying to reproduce the inside strength that he had three and a half years ago and that's always been a tough sell for a president who's never been over 50% in the approval ratings in gallop and some of these main polls and it's always been a tough challenge and now it's ti tougher given what's happened these last few weeks. >> i know you're here for your expertise in public health but i've got to ask you this. i hear obama-gate and i hear, i'm bleeped with my base because there is no obama-gate. it's the political version of the tooth fairy. it's fantasies and fairy tales and it means nothing. it's like invoking santa or something totally made up. to me, when i hear him use that term obama-gate, that is groping for the hard core supporter which to me screams of real political peril. if he was in any safer political standi standing, he wouldn't still be sucking up to the hard core

base, as peter baker just described this effort to be about. >> i think that's spot on. there are two political observations to make here. that's the first one which is that we're in mid may of an election year and if the president is so panicked about his base that he's making up scandals about his predecessor, that tells you that he's in trouble because this is the time of the year when incumbent presidents are trying to round up support, not reinforce their base. the second thing is i think peter's analysis of this is right, which is the trump white house looks at this covid problem and thinks this they have to either deny that it exists or attack someone for it. i worked for two incumbent presidents, got re-elected. you worked for one who got re-elected. the way they get re-elected is they do a good job. that's why they win or lose. he can blame a long list of people for this. he can try to beat the cdc to lower the death count, but he can't change the fact that he now has created a giant health

mess and a giant economic mess. the second one in particular, nicolle, that economic mess, that is trump's strength politically, is people believe he can deliver on the economy. he's now facing a huge economic crisis. this really goes to competence and incumbent presidents can't do a horrible job and get re-elected. that's what he's facing. >> i will say this, having worked for an incumbent president who stood for re-election, incumbent presidents running for president, it is always, always a referendum on you. so knock yourself out with the fantasies, mr. president. this will be about you. dr. leana wen, ron klain, peter baker, thank you for starpting us off. when we come back, a power match between the attorney general of the united states and not one but two federal judges. will the doj regret trying to dismiss the michael flynn case in the first place. another stextraordinary

development in that story. plus the fbi ramping up its investigation into a republican senator's stock sales. not just any republican senator. we'll look at what he's been doing on capitol hill and his on again/off again relationship with the white house. all those stories coming up. so as you head back out on the road, we'll be doing what we do best. providing some calm amidst the chaos. with virtual, real-time tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. for a little help, on and off the road. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, we'll make up to 3 payments on your behalf. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, our retirement plan with voya gives us confidence. yeah, they help us with achievable steps along the way... ...so we can spend a bit now, knowing we're prepared for the future. surprise! we renovated the guest room, so you can live with us. oooh, well... i'm good at my condo.

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we suggested this time yesterday that judge sullivan is a name you might want to familiarize yourselves with. true to form he has made a stunning move that suggests he will not take william barr's subversion of justice without probing the circumstances around barr's decision to drop the prosecution of mike flynn. sullivan has appointed a former judge and prosecutor to counter the barr justice department in court. "the new york times" reports this, quote, judge sullivan's appointment of the former judge,

john gleason, was an extraordinary move. mr. flynn pled guilty twice to lying to investigators as part of a larger inquiry into russia's interference. he also asked to explore the possibility that by trying to withdraw his pleas, mr. flynn opened himself up to perjury charges. this comes as barr's move for dropping the flynn case is falling apart. the "times" also reporting, quote, a key former fbi official casts doubt on the justice department's case for dropping a criminal charge against president trump's former national security adviser, michael flynn, during an ha interview with investigators last week, according to people familiar with the investigation. two big potential blows to barr's efforts to do the president's bidding at doj. who better to explain those developments than "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt and former senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. chuck, i feel like you've been

talking about the options available to judge sullivan who has been the judge that has had the flynn cases for many days. talk about what he did and if that's the sort of extraordinary move you suspected might be in the cards. >> it is extraordinary, nicole, but it makes perfect sense. judges rely on an adversarial process to make decisions. they assume they're going to have one person on each side of an issue. here what you have are both sides, the government and the defendant, taking the exact same position. simply put, judge sullivan needs help. he needs someone to argue the other side. judges are smart people. they're experienced people. they really don't have the staff or resources to investigate cases and develop facts. that's what the parties do for them. so by appointing a former federal judge and federal prosecutor, john gleason, judge sullivan puts this into a posture that is much more familial. somebody on either side of the

issue helping frame the case and to help him understand what he ought to do. what he ought to do is not entirely clear. he needs to develop the facts. >> mike schmidt, there's another new development in this flynn matter. your colleagues adam goldman and katie benner i believe have thethe bylines about the kind of interview that might have gone above board. explain that reporting to us. >> well, there was an interview that was done with this counterintelligence official who you had on the screen before in the lead-up to that motion being filed last week. he's essentially saying in that interview that how his notes were being construed in that motion were not accurate, that they didn't depict how things

were really playing out or what he meant. now, that's significant because the argument for the flynn dismissal is built on a lot of different things, among them is that piece of evidence. now, that's the second time that we've had someone who was in that evidence raise questions. the other person being mary mccord, the top justice department official who had been involved in the flynn matter, who wrote an op-ed in "the new york times" just a few days ago that she thought that her statements had been misc coconsd by the government in its argument for the dismissal. i was talking to one former counterintelligence official today who worked with prestep many years ago and said that prestep at times rubbed people at the fbi the wrong way and that was because he was a stickler, the guy said, for the rules. he was a very by the book kind of guy and that this person i was speaking to said they would be very surprised if the

accusations about prestep's involvement and the notes that he was writing and what was going on at the fbi would be true because prestep was sort of the guy that bothered other people because he really wanted to follow the rules. >> chuck rosenberg, mike schmidt's reporting raises an important point about what this judge is going to be poking holes at, and it's -- for bill barr to be right that mike flynn confessed to lying to the fbi, i don't know, i guess on mistake or that the confessions and the guilty pleas that he affirmed before judge sullivan not once but twice inside his courtroom, for all those things that have been bogus, every single person mike is talking about, bill prestep, also mentioned a former justice department official, every single person had to have been part of some plot hatched in a tree house with every

democratic and republican former doj and fbi official. talk about how this judge, judge gleason, might go about trying to poke holes in bill barr's seeming stretch of credibility here in taking apart a case that the career prosecutor quit over because he so believed in the facts as he had established them. >> it will be partly the facts that gleason will develop and present to judge sullivan. it will be partially the law and the policy. one of the arguments that barr has made and i find it frankly absurd is that there was no predication, no basis in this case. therefore, if there was no basis to pursue the case, there was no reason to talk to flynn, and therefore if there was no reason to talk to flynn, his lies must have been immaterial. remember, nicolle, nobody is saying that flynn didn't lie. they're simply saying that his lies didn't matter. i think that's belied boo

everythi -- by everything that we know, that there was russian interference in our election, that the fbi had a predicated russian counterintelligence investigation and that flynn was the subject of that investigation because of his communications with the russian ambassador while obama was still president. if that's not predication, nicolle, i'm not sure what is. gleason's job now is to marshal those facts and look at the law and policy and make an argument in front of judge sullivan that the case was properly predicated, that the lies were material, and that there is absolutely no basis either to dismiss the case against flynn or to permit him to withdraw the plea. again, it's this adversarial posture and that judge sullivan needs in order to make a decision. >> i think people who watch

donald trump do something that certainly looked like a war against the rule of law were disheartened by how easily bill barr seemed to steam roll robert muller. is there anything structural that could have the sullivan and gleason challenge of bill barr's leadership of doj end differently? >> i think sullivan's going to handle this thing by the law. there's a decision by the law, but it can't be lost on him that in many ways this will become a referendum on everything that has gone on in the past four years and that how he decides this case will cast the way that history looks at a lot of this. you could see that if you're in such an important momentous situation, why you would want to reach to have someone advocate for one side of it as you try and see all sides of this thing.

his decision will hand one side or the other a way of saying that either the past four years of investigating were politically motivated and there was nothing to them or that there was really something there and legitimate. >> the stakes couldn't be higher. mike schmidt, chuck rosenberg, thank you for helping us understand these extraordinary twists and turns. we are still talking about mike flynn, wow. after the break, the fbi today seized the cell phone of the top republican in the senate intel committee, but is there more to the story? the questions we have to ask in the era of donald trump. that's next. ald trump. that's next. it's best we stay apart for a bit, but that doesn't mean you're in this alone. we're automatically refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums. we're also offering flexible payment options for those who've been financially affected by the crisis. we look forward to returning to something that feels a little closer to life as we knew it,

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we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. republican senator richard burr is stepping aside as chairman of the intelligence committee, at least for now. that's after a senior law enforcement official confirmed to nbc news earlier today that the fbi seized his cell phone as

part of an investigation we told you about back in march. the feds were looking into possible insider trading following reports that senator burr privately warned well connected donors about the potential economic impact of coronavirus while selling off up to $1.6 million of his own stocks. burr defended himself when it first emerged, insisting that he relied on public news reports, not inside information, and asked the chairman of the senate ethics committee to open a complete review of the matter with full transparency. here's another angle to the story, more of an open question really, one at least worth asking in the time of donald trump. it has to do with the timing of all this. burr's committee recently released the results of a bipartisan investigation validating the 2017 u.s. intelligence community's assessment of russia's interference in the 2016 election, including their efforts to help donald trump. that conclusion enraged trump and the entire maga community, and there's a question worth

asking about whether there was any retribution involved in any of this. joining us now, former congressman david jolly and "new york times" political reporter nick confessore. it's what i expect to see in paragraph 15 of the "new york times." despite the fact that tsenator angered trump which was a sin in the eyes of the maga world and basically cosigning onto the committee led by burr and the ranking member, senator warner, that backed up the intelligence community's assessment, so and so insists there was no political consideration, has that paragraph been written? >> look, it's important to point out that senator burr and senator warner were able to keep the senate investigation of russia interference pretty straight and narrow. it was an investigation that was

a stark contrast to the house investigation, and for that reason was always a source of consternation to the president and his allies, that senator burr would play it straight. so it's not unfair to ask the question exactly what is going on here, but i think, nicolle, at this point in time we have more questions than answers and the big question really is senator loeffler, is her trading on inside information being traded in the same way as a similar investigation under way into her activity. that would possibly answer some questions in the end as to whether there's some kind of a payback here for senator burr. >> david, the fbi seeking a warrant to go and seize a telephone sounds, from a sitting senator, it sounds aggressive. it has sort of all the hallmarks of some urgency. help us understand what you read

into what we know so far, and as nick said, there are more questions than answers at this point and senator burr, we should note, is entitled to a presumption of innocence until all the facts are known. >> the fbi seizing a cell phone is significant in any insider trading investigation, much less that of a united states senator. the legal test is whether or not senator burr or the senator from georgia engaged in stock trading while they were in possession of material, non public information. that means information that they view would have an impact on the value of their equity holdings and they would have that information based on their unique position as united states senators or with congressman chris collins who had to leave congress and was ultimately convicted because he was a member of the board of directors of a company. that is the question being investigated and the way that they investigate it is they look at his concurrent activity around the time that he came

into possession of some of these senate intel briefings. the reason they want the phone is did he call his broker, did he call a family member, what calls did he make following some of these key hearings in which he probably received material non public information. his defense which we hear from a lot of people charged with insider trading is that they actually traded based on public information that was already out there, that there was this notion that covid-19 was already out there. the problem with that is anything can be material. if senator burr received a briefing where somebody said in private, look, we anticipate global economic disruption and it was expressed in the terms of percentages higher than public information, that's enough to get senator burr. so whether or not barr and trump have anything to do with this, these are real charges that he's facing and i would say reputationally, it's even worse. if he is guilty of this, and we don't know if he is, is harkt h

back to the pharma dude who made money off the epipens. it suggests that he viewed a boat that was about to hit an iceberg and he got in the life boat first and sailed away before everyone else. you can't recover from that reputation and if you're guilt, nor should you. >> that was the spirit of my next question, that if it's learned that a crime was not committed and a crime isn't charged to this, he's the chairman of the senate intel committee. just the -- i hate the word optics but the behavior is such a failure of abdication of serving as a public official. it seems like the best case scenario legally is still a worst case scenario to his political career and political reputation as david just said. >> in fact, nicolle, it's precisely that reason for which

the doj has a pretty high bar for this kind of activity for the fbi. you can't just put out a subpoena for the cell phone of a sitting senator on your own say-so. it goes through multiple layers of review because everyone understands the extraordinary harm that simply a subpoena or the act of investigation can inflict on a lawmaker or a person. so that raises the question of the process here behind the scenes, and if, in fact, it did go through all those steps, that sugge suggests that something real is here and worth investigating. after the break we're going into the bar, bars in wisconsin. stay with us. ing into the bar, bars in wisconsin. stay with us

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encouraging social distancing, but what exactly does that mean? we need a lot more specifics. i was looking over the sections,

in particular on child care facilities as a mom of a toddler, and for example, it talked about when -- it talked about encouraging people to stay at home. sick people to stay at home. really? we're encouraging them to stay at home if they're sick, not requiring them to? or when feasible, wearing a facial covering. but we should just state it as it is and that seems to be a big departure from how the cdc normally talks. >> how would that happen, dr. wen? what would be -- and as bob woodward says, the truth always emerges. what would be the intervening act for the cdc to put out something that doesn't sound like the cdc? >> i could imagine that a first draft, maybe that the draft that the a.p. first obtained went to officials, dr. birx and other folks who then added language that qualified it in some way. but you know what? that's not what we need. i mean, regulators, business owners, schoolteachers, they need to know exactly what it is

that we should do, not just look at your ventilation system but what exactly should they be looking at? what are the cleaning procedures that should be implemented? what activities are prohibited and what's allowed? that's the from the dni, things not being what we'd usually expect from the fbi. i mean, what is your hope, and what is your fear about these new guidelines released by the cdc just now? >> i imagine we'll find out as much of what we already know about how this administration operates, which is they view everything through a political lens and the lens that is the ego of donald trump.

and so, if there is a message that interferes with that, if there's a message -- a public health message emerging out of cdc that complicates the message that trump actually wants to deliver, regardless of whether or not trump's message is accurate or in the best interest of the nation, you will see it, perhaps, watered down or you'll see it put on the shelf. at the end of the day, throughout this entire pandemic, nicole, the white house -- not just donald trump, mike pence as well, and the officials, jared kushner, probably ivanka, all of them had more and better information than anybody in the united states ever had, and they refused to share 100% accurate information with the american people. they risked the lives of the american people to protect the ego and the political interests of the president of the united states, and i am sure this story of the shell cdc guidelines, when we get to the bottom of it, will affirm that once again this was about what makes donald trump look best, not what is in the best interest of the american people and their

health. >> david jolly, dr. wen, nick, thank you very much for spending time with us. after the break, a beloved police officer and an emergency room technician celebrating two lives well lived. that's next. n celebrating two lives well lived that's next. - i'm norm. - i'm szasz. [norm] and we live in columbia, missouri. we do consulting, but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; it's important. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. after about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didn't notice before. - it's still helping me. i still notice a difference. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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♪ it didn't go unnoticed this afternoon that at the memorial service for officer charles roberts, it was sunny, it was bright, and it was warm, so much like the extraordinary person that communicate gathered to remember. they had a nickname for him, "the unofficial mayor of glen ridge, new jersey." everyone, it would appear, knew him. after a long fight, officer roberts, who had had no underlying conditions, died on monday at 45 years old from the effects of coronavirus. he was a 20-year veteran of the

force and a shining example of service to one's community. he was a d.a.r.e. officer. he coached sports. he mentored young people, and he donated to charity. but we should also remember him as a dad to three beautiful children. he built them an extensive butterfly garden in their yard and when officer roberts went kayaking with his friends, the trips were planned so he would be sure to be back home by the time his kids woke up in the morning. we're thinking of them, of his entire family, and the entire glen ridge community today. we also seek to honor 56-year-old sandra hardy-rogers, a world traveler and a con su connoisseur of architecture. she and her son collected and built lego sets together. she always put otherwise before herself, her primary focus was doing her job and helping the people that needed care. that job he's talking about? sandra was an emergency room technician.

she found out a previous patient had tested positive for the virus, and days later, she became a patient in the hospital where she worked. so it fell to her coworkers to provide care in sandra's final days. we're remembering sandra today and officer roberts. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. it means a lot to us. our coverage continues with chuck todd right after a quick break. chuck todd right after a k break. ome, from inspiration to installation. like way more vanities perfect for you. nice. way more unique fixtures and tiles. pairing. ♪ nice. way more top brands in sinks and faucets. way more ways to rule your renovation. nice! on any budget, with free shipping. wayfair. way more than furniture. i but what i do count on...ts anis boost high protein...rs, and now, there's boost mobility... ...with key nutrients to help support...

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♪ welcome to a very busy thursday. it is meet the dress daily, i'm chuck todd continuing msnbc breaking news coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. at least 85,000 americans have now died in this pandemic. that threshold we crossed today. today we also learned that more than 36 million americans have now lost their jobs because of this pandemic as well. both o