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hey there. i'm joshua johnson in new york. as the country continues to reopen, divisions appear to be developing within the trump administration. specifically on the performance of the cdc at the start of the coronavirus pandemic. >> early on in this crisis, the cdc which really had the most trusted brand around the world in this space really let the country down with the testing. >> i don't believe the cdc left

this country down. i believe the cdc serves a important public health role. >> let's head to monica alba that joins us from the white house. we're hearing mixed messages there. what's pinned this mixbehind th messaging? >> we're hearing several examples of this at the white house. we have -- can you hear me? >> i can. go ahead. >> i'm so sorry, joshua. we're having technical issues on this end. it was significant given we heard different messaging from the own top trump administration officials here as it relates to the cdc. and what was notable there is that peter navarro said he didn't want to look in the rearview mirror yet he did place blame on the cdc when it comes to testing. when presented the same question to health and human services secretary, he said he thought the cdc played an important public role. we've seen this though on other issues when it comes to vaccines, when it comes to a

certain time line. we've heard differing opinions from different officials. you remember dr. fauci saying it would be more like 12 to 18 months. the spr the president is promising a vaccine by the end of the year. this comes into play when we talk about what is going to happen going forward. it's difficult to predict. notable we did see that controversial comments from both azar and navarro this morning, joshua. >> thank you, monica. that is monicaal about a joining us from the white house. >> coronavirus antibody tests are becoming readily available for those hoping to find out if they were exposed to covid-19. nbc's dasha burns shows us what it's like to get the antibody test. >> so i'm headed to mt. sinai hospital to get my antibody test. we rented a car so we can get there safely and we'll see how it goes. >> the test might give you

unsight into whether or not what you had was truly covid-19. and if so, how much anti-body we detected in your blood. when should get tested and who should we prioritize? >> we're prioritizing known recovered patients because we are hoping for them to donate their plasma to be used via therapy for people in the hospital. we need to use the tests to test other groups to understand how many people in our communities had covid-19 and recovered. who may not even know or who suspect like you that they may have had it burt don't know for sure. >> are you planning on test something people multiple times? >> yes. >> we need to learn a lot. one thing is what does having these antibodies mean? does it protect you from getting covid-19 again? but assuming that we believe it is protective, we need to know how long that protection will be in place.

>> i'm a little nervous. but i'll try and be brave. >> one, two, and three. okay. okay. >> good? >> yes. >> that's it. >> that's it? >> that's it. wow. okay. that wasn't too bad. >> i just got an e-mail that my test results are available. weirdly nervous. so i'm going to log in. oh, my gosh. i'm positive. antibody report positive. and antibody tighter, 960 which i think is the threshold for donating plasma. my results came out positive with a tighter level of 960. my husband who was also sick but not as sick as i was came out positive with a tighter level of

320. why the difference, am i just better? >> so you're on the high side. it may be the timing of when you got the infection. because these things take bate of time to form. >> and for people who would like to donate, what should they expect? >> it's more involved than the antibody test. it takes about an hour and a half. they will draw out volume of blood and then they give you back your blood cells. at the end, you're left with this kind of yellowish fluid. once that's done, it gets sent to a hospital and useded to treat somebody who is really sick. >> that was nbc's dasha burns reporting. covid-19 makes this a challenging time for pretty much all of us. but for pregnant women, it has been particularly stressful. because of coronavirus concerns, expectant mothers are navigating all kinds of new hospital protocols right up to and

including new rules in the delivery room. msnbc spent time with a pair of expectant mothers. here's more on what it means to be pregnant a pandemic. >> it's 15 days until my due date. 13 days until my induction date. >> jacqueline lee is days away from having her third child. she's been here before. but never during a pandemic. >> it doesn't feel real at all. what is going on in the country and the world that i haven't been able to really appreciate this pregnancy. >> jacqueline's husband started showing covid-19 like symptoms the same day sthe was told she needed a medical par 4 to turn the position of her baby. he tested negative but was still told to self isolate. >> he just went straight to the basement. he couldn't help. that's when i realized, i can't do this. there is just no way. >> reporter: jacqueline's anxiety while pregnant is not unique. katie's baby is due in july and

she worries about catching the deadly virus. her husband, a doctor, is on the covid-19 battlefront. >> i've been fighting basically to stay positive and to focus on me and the baby. >> reporter: you have been nervous? >> of course. very nervous. very nervous. if i have it. you know, could i have a miscarriage. >> reporter: so far there is no indication having covid-19 increases the risk of miscarriage. but that fact does not take away the worry. >> super tired and achy. i don't have a fever. and there's no way to know if this is coronavirus or pregnancy. >> reporter: some covid-19 symptoms do mirror pregnancy including shortness of breath, chest pain, nausea, and body aches. but the doctor says there is some good news. >> pregnant women do not have more severe disease than nonpregnant women, even in the

largest studies that we have so far to date. >> reporter: and for the babies actual delivery, there are some new protocols. expectant mothers and their partners are given covid-19 tests. and moms to be in many hospitals are required to wear masks during labor. the doctor said the overwhelming number of women expecting during the pandemic are delivering healthy babies with no complications. jacqueline is one of them. after several days in quarantine, her husband came out of that basement covid-19 negative. just in time to coach jacqueline through the delivery of baby ila. now home and healthy and forever a pandemic baby. >> that's msnbc reporting. we're back in just a minute. stay close.

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former president barack obama took the opportunity in speaking to 2020s graduating class this weekend to make a pointed critique of the trump

administration. >> this pandemic is fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what they're doing. a lot of them aren't even pretending to be in charge. >> that's part of the virtual graduation we watched last night on msnbc. president trump responded a short while ago on the white house south lawn. >> he is an incompetent president. that's all i can say. grossly incompetent. thank you. >> joining us now to discuss it, alex thompson from o"politico" and meredith mcgraw from "politico." alex, this is unusual for a few reasons. one of which being that we've had president obama making this high profile graduation speech instead of the incumbent president. it's unusual. then again, we have a pandemic to deal with. >> yeah. i mean, for the past three years

barack obama's been chomping at the bit to take trump on. you may remember in december 2016 after the election he publicly said he thought he could have beaten trump. now over the past three years, he's been relatively restrained. sort of occasionally subtweeting the president, calling him out but not by name. people close to president told me that the last week they feel that they have been strategic moves. you know, he hasn't been going out publicly necessarily like going out on podcasts and tv and criticizing the president. but he did a 3,000 person zoom call with 3,000 members of the obama administration, called the trump administration's response to disaster, a way to try to get the obama alumni on to the field into the game. and yesterday was about trying to talk to young people. and, you know, i don't think it's coincidence that joe biden's numbers bring the primary work great and this is barack obama trying to sort of make the case to young people to get involved and, you know, for

the upcoming election. >> meredith, the other thing about this, i hear you on that, alex. i think this also kind of highlights, meredith, why it's unusual for former presidents to talk about current presidents. i mean the trump administration responded with a statement that deflected blame from itself and put it squarely on the shoulders of the obama administration. you don't hear former presidents talking about the incumbents very often. this may be an example of why. >> right. there's sort of an unspoken rule among former presidents that they don't publicly and by name criticize current sitting presidents. and in this case, president, former president obama did not criticize president trump by name but his message was clear and certainly was taking aim at the leadership of the current administration during this crisis. the and tried to sent a message to the public to reassure them as the pandemic has really

politically divided people and also created a lot of confusion among the public. and i think considering how the current president, president trump plays politics, this unspoken rule, we may see that get broken as president obama will continue to go out and support vice president biden. biden, of course, wants to run on his track record as vice president. and so i don't think that we've seen the end of president obama speaking out and perhaps veiled criticisms of the current administration. but, of course, president trump is going to go on the attack as he already has. >> and, meredith, we have to move on, but is there any evidence of anything the obama administration to influence this handling of the pandemic to kind of back up president trump's claim in any way that he's been incompetent in this regard? >> no. and that's something that this

administration has said time and time again. and then, of course, with the current obamagate that president has been pushing, they accused former pr former president obama of kmigt a cri committing a crime. >> alex, one other story we have to talk about, the michael flynn controversy and the unmasking of michael flynn. the hill is reporting that republicans are seizing on this declassified nsa document made public on wednesday. it shows some people in the obama administration including joe biden tried to unmask michael flynn in late 2016, early 2017. this word keeps getting thrown around, unmasking. can we have 60 seconds of clarity of this. surveillance of nationals that happened to include u.s. citizens whose names are removed because they're not part of the investigation but high up neff people can say who is that person and get the name

revealed. that's legal, right? >> yeah. i mean, under current laws, you actually saw senate republicans just this week sort of renew a lot of authorities for surveillance. the thing about unmasking is you don't know who the name of the people are before you unmask them. the idea that the obama administration knew that they were going to be unmasking michael flynn sort of defies the logic f you're unmasking, you don't know who is under. so i think some of the early obama administration officials were surprised. you have to remember the context of this moment. this is a moment when right when the intelligence community determined that the russian government interfered in the 2016 election and then the obama administration put sanctions on several russian officials. so the obama administration was then monitoring the foreign ambassador and russian officials at the time. so, of course, they were going to be interested with who those officials were talking to add

midst a mid administering sanctions. >> any word this is going to go beyond president trump making this statement? >> president trump made a plea to get former president obama up on the hill to testify about this and chairman lindsey graham, he poured cold water on that. and the president even asked speaker mitch mcconnell to also further look into this and while mcconnell hasn't said anything directly about this and i actually asked an aide about it today and they pointed to graham's work on the committee and the hearings that will start next month. graham did tell one of our colleagues in a story yesterday about this that if president trump wants to bring former president obama up on the hill, he needs to think long and hard about the political precedent that would set especially for him. >> alex thompson and meredith

mcgraw from poe p"politico." the government funded billions of dollars in loans to businesses. who is making sure that cash ended up in the right hands? we'll tell what you the treasury department is saying about its audit process. are most uncertain, we turn to the most certain thing there is. science. science can overcome diseases. create cures. and yes, beat pandemics. it has before. it will again. because when it's faced with a new opponent, it doesn't back down - it revs up. asking questions 'til it finds what it's looking for. that's the power of science. so we're taking our science and unleashing it. our research, experts and resources. all in an effort to advance potential therapies and vaccines. other companies and academic institutions are doing the same. the entire global scientific community is working together to beat this thing.

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with the beginning of virginia's phase one reopening plan, wineries across that state have started to open their doors to visitors this weekend. nbc's reporter is in leon,

virginia. a little way outside of charlottesville. talk about the health rules, the safety rules that wineries will have to follow if they decide to reopen now. >> hey, joshua. that's a great question. there's been a lot going on the past couple weeks to prepare and get to this moment. on friday, a lot of the wineries in the region opened their doors for the first time. there were folks here at this vineyard in prince michelle who were waiting outside at 9:00 a.m. before the doors opened at 12:00. a lot of folks in this area ready to get out of their houses, ared to start, you know, socializing a little bit. some of the health and safety precautions though have been top of mind for a lot of visitors and these vineyard owners as well. you can see behind me some folks sitting at tables much those are spread out ten feet apart. staff members are wearing gloves and masks. tables are cleaned diligently. that's part of the standard operating process throughout the entire state for any facility that is opening up their doors. but it's interesting because within the vineyard and the wine industry itself, there have been

major changes in how people are experiencing it, right? some of the vineyards are doing disposable cups only. they're asking people to bring their own wine glasses. the some vip yarneyards, they s can you bring your own lawn chairs. so there have been some changes on a larger scale and also a smaller scale as well which are kind of now looking more like long term solutions rather than the short term plans that we had been thinking about earlier. so that's something that is all being considered as virginia starts to reopen in the phase one process. joshua? >> i've been on a few winery tours and i don't think that having to bring my own glass would dissuade me from showing up. as long as the wine is it in, i think we'll be okay. thank you. let's talk about the paycheck protection program. new guidelines for that program might provide some relief for small companies that are struggling to survive during the coronavirus crisis. the small business administration has announceded

they will not investigate loan that's are smaller than $2 million. will not investigate. now at first businesses had to certify that they made the loan request in good faith. many were concerned they would not be able to adequately prove that they needed that money to stay afloat. but with just over $100 billion left in the ppp, there is still not much transparency about which companies are getting those funds. joining us now to discuss it is julian ma julian malvoux. julian, i wonder how this situation could but end up with significant fraud in the system. we presume that the majority of the businesses that requested this money did so in good faith. but without someone looking at the smallest of the loans, it seems like the companies could be biting little bits of money off the federal government that add up to a lot of fraud. >> well, if you're talking about $2 million, i mean that is a

significant amount of money especially for small businesses. who have fewer than 50 employees. and, you know, small businesses are the engine for our economy. the challenge is that small businesses had had a harder time getting the loans that other businesses have. while i think it's dangerous to say we won't audit, they should audit randomly. i think that what they've said is that the band wid sj they do auditors available. they could staff up, get more auditors. that will be jobs. so i don't think it's impossible to do a complete audit of everyone. i think that they're being realistic about just like the ii irs. they don't audit everyone. if there are certain indicators that you may be fraudulent, you have too many deductions, something like that. i would strongly favor a random audit as opposed to we just won't touch anything under $2 million. >> you brought up deductions.

i'm not a small business owner. for the ppp loan to be forgiven, 75% of the money has to go towards payroll and towards rehiring workers. but the irs says that the part of the loan that's are used to pay those wages will not be tax deductible. what impact does that have? >> it has a significant impact. there are two things wrong with the 75% requirement. one, of course, is the whole notion of whether it is tax deductible or not. is the irs going to treat the loan then as income if the loan is forgiven? this will make many of the small businesses that we're talking about, joshua, are operating on something of a shoestring. especially if we're talking about businesses with fewer than 50 employees. . when you look at small businesses, the average small business has an income of under -- or receipts under $100,000. so, you know, if that loan turns into income, that's going to be a challenge. but the second challenge with

the 75% is the expenses that many small businesses, especially high rent cities have, there's a little business around the corner from me called pixies, a cute little antique shop, her rent is $19,000 a month. and she's been closed for ever since march. so she's out -- laid off all her employees because she ghoeets n foot traffic. the 75% impede sometimes businesses from reopening and that's challenging. we have estimate that's say as many as a third of the small businesses will never reopen. >> so let's talk about that. there is a report from the sba inspector general that says businesses owned by people of color have not been prioritized from the paycheck protection program. i don't think that comes to a surprise to you or me. there is a long history in this country of businesses that are black and brown owned, just

being kind of left to fend for themselves for the future. so what would you see as the one or two best things with he can do right now to make sure that these businesses don't get left behind and perhaps that we just follow this part of the c.a.r.e.s. act? >> you know, joshua, one of the challenges is that the sba has not even been keeping demographic data. we cannot say what small businesses black owned businesses, minority owned businesses got. we can't say. they don't have the data. there is a lawsuit in maryland that many minority businesses are bringing because they believe that they have been discriminated again. i would say that, frankly, what is $100 billion left in the, you know, in the funds that were allocated, make them all go to minority businesses. everybody else has had their bite of the apple. let them all go to minority businesses and provide people with some technical assistance. i was talking to a small business owner who said the paperwork is onerous.

she has two employees. this is typical, 85% of black owned businesses have one or two employees. so this is the typical black owned business. and she said the paperwork -- she doesn't have a full time bookkeeper. so she has not applied. she needs to apply. but she hasn't. so i think if you prioritize minority businesses and provide technical assistance so that they can fill out the paperwork properly. >> julian malvoux from bennett college, thank you very much for talking to us. >> thank you, joshua. have a blessed day. zbllt sa . >> same to you. the coronavirus vice is for us to reimagine how we do our job and those running for public office. with the social distances being brought on, campaigns have been going more diblgital. candidates including former vice president joe biden are swapping the in person rallies for virtual town halls. they're using the platforms to

get vital resources to their communities. nbc's lee an caldwell tells us what it's like to campaign in the age of covid-19. >> reporter: while most of the world is shut down, campaigns have not. they look drastically different. no longer are candidates shaking hands and diners and coffee shops on the campaign trail. now they're talking to voters on zoom, facetime and social media. >> i always joke that some of our most heavily attended events happen to be our virtual town halls. >> reporter: it's not just the campaign tactics that changes, so have the messages, ads, and role of the candidate. he is working to unseed a candidate in the texas suburbs. he hung up the candidate hat and put on scrubs to treat patiented. do you think being a doctor gives you an advantage at this poin point, in your conditioningtial campaign? >> this offers me an opportunity to see people in their need.

we are taking those lessons and we are talking about it and amplifying those lessons everywhere we go. >> reporter: his opponent and his volunteers about been delivering food to front liworks and sowing masks. shortages of pppe and economic calamity during this election year, candidates morphed into good samaritans, delivering supplies to health care workers, helping voters access loans and depolice stati deploying domestically. they zrbltdistributed 30,000 ma. the. >> we're asking doctors, nurses, cops, firefighters to go into our community in the middle of a pandemic and make sure that we're keeping them safe. >> reporter: he beat a republican last election and must work hard to win in 2020. this weekend he helped deliver food to children. >> right behind me you see families am coming and picking up school lunches for them and

their kids. so our campaign has completely changed. we're not knocking on doors anymore. instead, all our campaign volunteers are working to deliver groceries, donating blood, help with the school lunch programs like this one and make sure that nobody in our community doesn't have their needs met in a time when they do. >> reporter: americans across the country trying to figure out what the new normal looks like with covid-19, both the house democratic and republican campaign committees have advised their candidates to soften their political rhetoric. i spoke with representative john katko of syracuse. political campaign there is a tendency to perhaps draw contrasts with your opponent. has that subsided a little bit at this age? >> it subsided completely. the we're not engaging. now is not the time for. that people don't want to hear divisiveness, they want to hear bipartisanship and that what i'm laser focused on. >> reporter: he can hold off on political attacks. democratic challenger won't be

decided until will primary next month. still with six months to go until the general election and no vaccine in sight, one thing is for sure, candidates won't be kissing any babies any time soon. >> that was leeann caldwell reporting. >> parents in i.c.e. he detention centers are given what some activists are calling a he sophie's choice, be separated from children or stay together in detention indefinitely. multiple immigration lawyers tell nbc news that parents at three i.c.e. family detention centers got a form that lets them release their child while they stay in custody. also this week, the first recorded death of an i.c.e. detainee from covid-19 was announced in california. that spurred concerns about the centers becoming hot spots. i.c.e. says they leased 900 detainees since march. this week, more than 4,000 physicians signed an open letter urging them to release more.

let's bring in grabriella and allen gomez from usa today. allen, let me start with you. we've been reporting that lawyers are concerned that parents would be persuaded to release their children for fear of them getting covid-19. why is this change happening now? >> i don't know about how much of a change it is. i mean this is something that they've been doing from time to time giving them that option, you know, we saw this quite a bit a couple years ago back during the family separation policy. and what we're seeing now is a lot of these migrants in these family detention centers where they're housed alongside their children are saying that they're being given that choice again. they're not giving thim that choice. but we saw just on friday i.c.e. and a legal battle in california

they listed 189 minors that they have in their custody and one of the main reasons that was given for not separating them or not allowing -- excuse me, for not allowing the minors to be released is that the parents said i don't want to be separated from my child. so clearly there is something -- there's something going wrong there. i.c.e. is not giving them the choice but in legal documents they say that choice is extended to them. >> what you are hearing about the reports of parents being asked if they want to release their children? >> it's a really desperate situation. i kind of want to put this into the context because the u.s. runs the largest immigrant prison system in the world. so as of now, because of lawyers, because of advocates, and because of the media, frankly, i.c.e. released somewhat, 700 of 35,000 of those in detention. what we started hearing from the family detention centers last week was this choice that allen was presenting, right, which is

you have to either give up your child in order for them not to die of covid-19 inside of prison that is not well prepared and where you're not being taken care of and -- or, stay with them and put them in danger along with your own life. it's crazy to me. it is also crazy to me that reason why we know this is because we were able to get in touch with lawyers. they were able to get in touch with lawyers. when the majority of immigrants in this country that are detained don't even have access to that. they don't have access to get the word out. >> allen, you described this as a top of sophie's choice. i.c.e. says it's not that binary. advocates say it is obviously that binary. how do you see it? >> if you're given a sheet of paper and as allen said, we saw it in discovery in the lawsuit in california, right? so they're literally being told,

right, do you want to give your child up for sponsor or if you don't have a sponsor into the foster care system or do you want them to stay here indefinitely? i.c.e. continuously lies. and i.c.e. runs with impunity in this country right now. so anything that you hear, this isn't new. it's just the things that are coming out. and without attorneys to represent them, they have no chi choice. they have no due process. and right now, that's lethal. >> allen gomez, what is your sense of what happens here? ? i.c.e. says the detained population dropped by 7,000 people since march 1st of this year. and it's released more than 900 detainees after looking at their immigration history. what more do you think i.c.e. will be doing from here? what's the next step? >> i think the next step in most cases is going to be i.c.e. appearing in court because when

they talk about those numbers dropping so drastically, they don't mention the fact that a big reason for that is that we're seeing far fewer people trying to cross that southern border than apprehend bid cdp and funneled into i.c.e. detention. that's why they're seeing numbers go down. but also over at least three 300 of these i.c.e. detainees are released because of judicial orders. we're seeing a lot around the country is advocates, lawyers for all these different immigrants in custody going straight to court in their local jurisdictions and getting judges to order the release of a lot of the detainees. i'm based down here in miami. a judge down here ordered ice to reduce the population of the biggest detention center down here to a max of 75% capacity. and has threatened to drop that even further if i.c.e. doesn't show that they're taking some pretty serious steps to get a handle on this -- these covid-19 outbreaks that we're seeing at

facilities all over the country. we're close to 1,000 confirmed i.c.e. cases, of i.c.e. detainees around the country. but that is only as of may 9th. so over a week ago is the last time that i.c.e. updated that dat yachlt dat yachlt i anticipa data. some lawsuits will be expanded into class action lawsuits. as always with the trump administration, a lot of the immigration policies will end up being resolved in court. >> i'm a south florida native. i covered miami for some time. i know that detention very well. it will be interesting to see what happens with that particular saga. that is a piece of the immigration story, i think, that is worth knowing much more about. but a conversation for another day. allen and gabriella, we appreciate you both being with us. thanks very much. up next, germany is starting to bring its economy back online and that means international travel and professional sports. we'll show what you precautions germany is taking and what the

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memorial day is about a week away. parts of europe are offering a blue print for how to reopen borders and resume pro-sports. in germany, soccer fans got their wish this weekend. professional football play began in empty stadiums. for those wondering when they might be able to travel to europe, the answer might be in travel bubbles. they are opening europe up to tourists and might become a model for the u.s. >> reporter: looking to travel and tourism going again may be as soon as this summer. something like a travel bubble, that could help get tourism

going even faster. the european union has begun encouraging countries here with low infection rates where the situation is under control to reopen their borders first. that will allow travel to start amongst those countries even faster. we're starting to see something like that in the baltic states. they have created a baltic bubble. those three countries opening up their borders to themselves. allowing tha ining their citize travel in those three places that have lower infection rates. these would be safe region, stay, states that could all travel among themselves. place like vermont might be allowed to travel and va sags th

-- vacation this summer in greece. you need the ability to lock back down in case there's trouble. >> carl, that's nbc global correspondent. thanks very much. coming up, in the next hour, i'll talk to former nascar driver jeff burr ton about the return of their sport and precautions that nascar is taking to keep every one safe. at 4:00 p.m., alicia will look a ts tt the changers that s can expect. that's in about an hour. i'll see you after the break here on msnbc. usaa was made for right now.

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hey there. i'm joshua johnson. good to be with you today from nbc news in new york. sports are slowly getting back to normal. nascar races again this hour. we'll get some insights from jeff bur tton. let us begin with president trump firing back at his predecessor in a heavy weight war of words. it began with barack obama used a speak to college graduates. he took a subtle swipe at president trump's handling of this pandemic. >> this pandemic is fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what they're doing. a lot of them aren't even pretending to be in charge. >> president trump aprooifred back at the white house a short time ago. he talked to reporters and

offered a brief response. >> look, he was an incompetent president. that's all i can say. grossly incomptent. thank you. >> monica, this is the second time in just over a week that we've heard president obama criticize the president once in that tape of a call with supporters and then yesterday. i get the sense this is not the end of this, right? >> reporter: likely not. i think that's a fair bet and way of putting it. we have heard the president continuely tout what he calls obamagate in recent weeks which is an unfounded conspiracy theory he, he campaign and allies continues to spread. trying to raise questions about how president obama may have been involved in the origin of the russia investigation of which there's no evidence. that's important because as we pivot away from the health crisis and see the president focus on his re-election, that's something we