this sunday, the president and the pushback. on a vaccine. >> we'd love to see if we could do it prior to the end of the year. >> we can't count on it. we don't know if will be one year, two years, or many years. >> on restarting the economy. >> vaccine or no vaccine, we're back. >> i feel if that occurs, there is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you might not be able to control. >> on preparedness. >> without better planning, 2020 could be the darkest winter in modern history. >> he's nothing more than a really disgruntled, unhappy person. >> and now this from former president obama. >> this pandemic has fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the

folks in charge know what they're doing. >> my guests this morning, defense production coordinator peter navarro and dr. tom inglesby of johns hopkins university. plus, partisan pandemic. anti-shutdown demonstrations across the country. >> freedom! >> while in wisconsin, the state's conservative supreme court overturned the democratic governor's stay-at-home order. >> i don't think the risk presents any higher than me going to the grocery store. >> also, all those conspiracy claims. >> there's another agenda. it's not just the virus. >> how and why so many baseless conspiracy ideas are spreading during this crisis. i'll talk to nbc news national security analyst clint watts. joining me for insight and analysis are peter alexander, white house correspondent for nbc news. anna palmer, senior washington correspondent for politico, and yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent for pbs newshour. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press" and our continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic.

>> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. with the number of confirmed covid-19 cases approaching 1.5 million and the death toll now nearly 90,000, with anti-shutdown protesters in the streets, and with others using the crisis to peddle conspiracies, it can seem as if we are a hopelessly divided nation. we see it in washington, in the disconnect between anthony fauci warning congress against a too-rapid reopening of the country, and a president who's called fauci's position on reopening schools unacceptable. we see it in wisconsin where the state supreme court backed the republican legislature and struck down a democratic governor's stay-at-home order. and we see it in our split-screen nation with some people partying like it's 2019, while neighboring states and even neighboring counties remain essentially on lockdown. of course, even before the coronavirus hit, political division was our pre-existing condition.

and all this makes it easy to forget how much most of us are actually pulling in one direction to get us through the worst health and now economic crisis in a century. like the health care workers risking their lives in hospitals, like the grocery clerks working low-wage jobs to make ends meet and help us put food on the table. like the police and millions of others who can't work from home to do their jobs. so maybe this is a good moment to remind ourselves of all those acts of kindness, selflessness, and heroism that do pull us together even as protesters, partisans, and some high-profile politicians exploit the situation to try to pull us apart. >> vaccine or no vaccine, we're back. >> as most states move to partially reopen, the gap is widening between the president's rhetoric and the guidance of many of his top public health experts. president trump claims -- >> there may be one exception, but all throughout the country the numbers are coming down rapidly. >> in fact, the rate of new

reported cases is decreasing in 19 states, remains steady in 21, and is increasing in 10. the cdc director tweeted friday night that the agency's models all forecast an increase in deaths in the coming weeks with the death toll exceeding 100,000 by june 1st. then there's testing. >> florida, many other states have so much testing, the testers are waiting for people to show up. it's great. >> but last week, harvard university researchers found only nine states had met the testing levels needed to safely reopen. and on a vaccine -- >> we'd love to see if we could do it prior to the end of the year. >> but many scientists, including the president's ousted former top vaccine official, say that is overly optimistic. >> i still think 12 to 18 months is an aggressive schedule. and i think it's going to take longer than that. >> and on what to expect from the virus. >> at some point, it will go away. it may flare up and it may not flare up. >> when you talk about will this virus just disappear, as i said publicly many times, that is just not going to happen.

>> the tensions between the president and public health officials were on full display this week as the cdc released a watered-down, six-page decision tree for reopening the country. while the rest of its proposed guidelines remain under review at the white house. and mr. trump criticized his top infectious disease expert, dr. anthony fauci, after his warnings about reopening prematurely. >> there's a real risk you'll trigger an outbreak you cannot may not be able to control. >> look, he wants to play all sides of the equation. i was surprised by his answer, actually, because you know, it's just, to me, it's not an acceptable answer. especially when it comes to schools. >> and the president is playing up the political divide as partisan fights break out over when and how to reopen. in pennsylvania -- >> areas of pennsylvania that are barely affected and they want to keep them closed. can't do that. >> there's another agenda. it's not just a virus. there's no way it's just a

virus. >> in wisconsin, where the conservative majority state supreme court this week overturned the democratic governor's stay-at-home order, president trump called that a win. >> i want my freedom, basically. i don't think i should be under house arrest. >> in michigan, where the republican-controlled legislature is suing the state's democratic governor. >> when people are showing up with guns, when people are showing up with things like, you know, confederate flags, it tells you this really isn't about the lockdown. >> joining me now is dr. tom inglesby, director of the center for health security of the johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health. dr. inglesby, welcome back to "meet the press." i want to put up on screen a breakdown of the curves, a regional breakdown, because i'm curious to see how this impacts how we should view where this virus is right now. there's clearly not only a flattening but a bending of the curve downward in the northeast, but in the south and west, it's

a plateau, and in the midwest, it's just starting, we hope, to plateau, because the curve was actually continued on an upward trajectory for most of the week. looking at it that way, what does it tell you where we are when it comes to this virus? >> well, i think overall, the good news for the country is that the overall top line numbers are trending down on average over the country. but you really have to look at the state level and regional level to understand where your own state or your own county lies in the whole story. as you said earlier, there are some states that are still having increasing daily numbers of cases. some states that are flat, some states that are going down. you really need to know the story, you need to ask questions in your own state about how things are going, and some of the questions that are most important are, are hospitalizations still going up? are ventilators still in short supply or do we have many of them in case there's a new flare? those kinds of questions are really important for people in states to be asking about their own situation.

>> and i know when we were talking earlier this weekend, you wanted to put an emphasis of concern on how this is spreading in rural america. i want to put a map up here. in this map, the counties that are in yellow are counties that just in the last week have seen a spike in cases. and just about all of these counties are populations less than 50,000. what is the status of -- how concerned are you about the icu bed situation in these rural counties? because the numbers may not look that bad when you look at them from 30,000 feet. but in an individual county of less than 50,000, 20 cases, 20 hospitalizations could become a huge deal. >> yeah, i think the local details are going to matter a lot. and as you can see in the map, the spread has been from big cities, especially in the northeast, and then moving towards counties that are further away from cities, either ones of small towns or rural

counties. and even if numbers are small in those places, they have to be very vigilant because they may not have a hospital that's in close reach or ventilators in nearby areas. and they may have to go quite a distance to get the care they might need if they get sick from covid. those are important places to watch and for states to be vigilant about. >> what do you tell -- we have gotten quite a few emails from viewers who say, and i had plenty of conversations with folks who say, hey, you know what? our area is just fine, and i don't understand why all these lockdowns, and boy, they did all these lockdowns in that state, and our state's the same way without all the lockdowns, were they really all necessary? what do you say to that viewer who may look in their own neighborhood and think, i just don't see it? >> yeah, i think lockdowns were necessary. they actually have changed the course of the epidemic in the united states. we have the largest epidemic in the world, five times as many cases as any other country in the world.

and you can see over time the curve is moving in the right direction, and it's now appropriate for states thinking about how to very carefully reopen and do it as safely as possible. but yes, i think we needed to get control of this epidemic in the country and now reset. and now places where there's very little disease, those are the places where it's going to be safest to gradually reopen. >> give us a sense of what you think the next three months are going to look like with this virus. we keep talking about what the fall might look like. but given what we have seen -- what you have studied around the world in various climates and seeing what our reopening status is essentially going to be, right? where it looks like about half the country is going to stick with some social distancing guideline. what do you expect the summer to look like? >> well, it's difficult to predict. i mean, the future really is in our hands. it depends on how people in individual states react to the situation. if people continue to be very careful about physical distancing, wearing cloth masks when outside, avoiding

gatherings, i think i'm hopeful that states will be able to control their outbreaks. we also need to have very strong contact tracing efforts around the country. that's what countries around the world have used with a lot of success. if you get a case, you investigate it quickly, you make sure all those contacts are safely quarantined, and we keep control that way. i think we shouldn't think of this as kind of starting and stopping and this is over. this is a longer-term process, and we're all in it together and our actions are going to matter. i think, you know, the models in this country, the leading models predict that there may be as many as 110,000 people who have died by this disease a month from now. those are models. it's possible for us to do better than models. it's also possible for us to do worse depending on what people decide to do, their own actions. >> what do you take away from a situation in georgia where they were one of the first states to try to reopen. there was a lot of doom and gloom predictions, and so far,

things have gone okay? >> yeah, georgia has been about the same as it was before the lockdown ended. my understanding is many people in georgia are cautiously and carefully moving back towards reopening, so i don't think people should see the reopening process in georgia as everything happened at once and everything restarted in the same way. it seems like there's a lot of caution by individuals around the state. but that being said, it's a good beginning in the fact it hasn't gotten worse. it does take time for us to see the change that might occur following changes in policy. because it takes a while for people to become sick after getting infected, and it could take even longer for them to be hospitalized. so i think it's too soon for us in any state to see how things are going. we need to see a couple more weeks, but it's good news things have not gone in the wrong direction. >> very quickly on a vaccine. we hear this 12 to 18-month timeline.

is that timeline too optimistic? we know the president wants it sooner, and why wouldn't he, why wouldn't anybody want it sooner? is the 12 to 18-month timeline realistic or not? >> coming into this year, i would have said it was completely unrealistic. i still think it's far from a sure thing. but given that there are now 110 vaccine projects going on around the world, that all the major vaccine companies in the world are working on this in some way, and given tony fauci is now a leading figure in the u.s. in this project and they both believe it's possible, i think it is possible, but everything would have to break in the right way and there are many ways it might not work. i don't think we should bank on it, but we should hold out some level of hope that if everything goes in the right direction, we could possibly see a vaccine by the end of the year. >> that's for sure, the hope being, hey, we have the smartest minds in the world all focused on one problem. gosh darn it, let's see if we

get the solution quickly. dr. tom inglesby, thanks for coming on. >> thank you, chuck, appreciate it. >> joining me now is peter navarro, director of trade and manufacturing policy inside the white house, but in this crisis, he's also the national defense production act policy coordinat coordinator. mr. navarro, welcome back to "meet the press." and i want to start with your current job as defense production act coordinator. i'm sure you have seen the letter, a handful of democratic senators have written, and they're frustrated it hasn't been invoked enough. they say that the authority has been used too sparingly to basically even out the market when it comes to ppe and testing kits and testing supplies. what do you say to their concerns? >> they're dead wrong. let me give you a couple of examples. one of the most successful uses of the defense production act was to get general motors working with a small company called ventech to make ventilators. we had a serious crisis back at the time.

this was a miracle, and in some sense, a microcosm for the future. what we had was general motors in 17 days working with this small company stood up a ventilator factory, and within three days with the help of u.p.s., we were able to deliver ventilators to hospitals in chicago. beneath the surface of that, the real story is gm went in, used 3d imaging to replicate a factory in seattle that was small, only cranking out 25 ventilators. more importantly, chuck, 700 pieces go into that ventilator, and gm was able to use its manufacturing platform to go out to its supply chain to replicate virtually all of those here on domestic soil. so using the dpa, we were able to move in incredible speed, innovative, and bring ventilator production right here to domestic soil. that for me is a microcosm of what we're doing. honeywell, we opened two

factories. one in arizona and one in rhode island. that was done using the dpa in five weeks as opposed to nine months. so we're using the dpa whenever we need to. and we're using it quite effectively. >> well, you're making a strong case for how the dpa can be effective. and what these senators are asking is use it more, use it more to ramp up the issue, for instance, the issue of testing kits, but more importantly the supplies it takes to process those tests. it's still something we lag behind on. what's wrong with using dpa to surge those supplies? >> senators are looking in the rear-view mirror. we had the same discussion six weeks ago about ventilators. they were saying the exact same thing. what we did with ventilators is basically get a situation now where by june we'll have over 100,000 of them. we're going to have more ventilators than america ever needs. we're going to be able to export

those ventilators, make that an export industry. jobs here, exports there. and we're going to be able to give ventilators to our allies that can't afford them. so same thing is happening with testing as we speak. every week, it ramps up. it's kind of like computer chips where the speed doubles every certain amount. same thing has happened with testing. these democratic senators ought to get out more often and see what the trump administration is doing. >> i want to go back, though, to the issue of testing and test kits. you're making a lot of promises here. at what point will every business leader in america know they have access to as many test kits as they need to reopen their facilities? >> admiral giroir has said it clearly that anybody who needs a test now can get a test -- >> when do we get beyond that? >> i'm not here to make promises to you, chuck. i'm here to tell you as the

coordinator of the supply chains that we're rapidly ramping up testing, just like we did with ventilators. we're ramping up surgical gowns. we're ramping up masks. and this strategic national stockpile 2.0, i think it might be worth talking just a little bit about. it's smarter because we're using information technology. it's bigger in a really smart way because not only are we going to fill fema warehouses with a lot more ppe and medicines, we're also going to use distribution centers like owens and myer, which the president visited last week in pennsylvania, to have them hold additional inventory. hospitals' point of care are going to hold additional inventories. and most important, chuck in terms of this, buy american, build american. as we locate the domestic supply chain here, our factories are going to be able to hold reserve capacity, which allows us to surge to additional demand. so my job is to make sure people of america have enough of what they need going forward, and i'm confident that we're moving beautifully in that direction under the leadership of president trump.

>> look, i know you want to talk about the strategic national stockpile, but i have to ask you this question. you did a pandemic exercise, and you went through these plans in '18 and '19. do you have a good explanation for why the after-action reports weren't followed in time to have our stockpiles prepared for this pandemic? >> i'm not looking in the rear-view mirror right now, chuck. this president is just looking straight ahead towards what's going to be a really strong future. the fact of the matter is we were able to get through the chinese winter here of the pandemic with what we had. it was a threadbare fema stockpile that was left to us by the previous administration. the one that we're going to have going into the fall is not that. it's going to be, as i said, smarter, bigger, far more resilient. that's what i'm doing, chuck. my focus, yeah, i came here to kind of work on trade policy issues and somehow i became

quartermaster and supply clerk. but it's been a beautiful thing working with private industry to see how innovative the companies of america can be, and how the manufacturing platforms of this country, if we just give them some lift, how they can really develop like the gm example i told you about earlier. >> i want to ask you quickly about the cdc and ask you whether the president has confidence in the cdc. it does seem as if the initial guidelines, they didn't want them put out. they put down very limited guidelines with more detailed ones coming later. cdc hasn't been able to give a briefing now in over a month. does the president have confidence in the cdc as our lead on this pandemic? >> well, i would say two things about that. first of all, you should ask the president that question, not me. but early on in this crisis, the cdc, which really had the most trusted brand around the world in this space, really let the

country down with the testing. because not only did they keep the testing within the bureaucracy, they had a bad test. that did set us back. but going forward with these guidelines, the important thing to understand here for the american people is this -- opening up this economy is not a question of lives versus jobs. the fact of the matter is, and what president trump realized early on, is that if you lock people down, you may save lives directly from the china virus, but you indirectly are going to kill a lot more people. why do i say that? we know statistically, based on our experience with the china trade shock in the 2000s that unemployment creates more suicides, depression, and drug abuse. but we also know this in this crisis, as we basically locked down our hospitals for everything but covid. women haven't been getting mammograms or cervical

examinations for cancer. we haven't been able to do other procedures for the heart or kidneys. and that's going to kill people as well. so if you contrast like this complete lockdown where some of the people in the medical community want to just run and hide until the virus is extinguished, that's going to not only take a huge toll on the american economy, it's going to kill many more people than the virus, the china virus, ever would. >> i've got to ask you this question about the president. on one hand, he says he wants to leave these decisions up to governors, but it does seem as if, if he doesn't like the decision of a governor, particularly if they're in the midwest, he expresses his view. how does that help the governor be able to make their own decisions? >> look, i report directly to the president. i'm one of the top five advisers on policy. i let the president speak for himself. that's all i can say.

i do think that what we're seeing here across this country in terms of different responses, that it is very useful to leverage local control. but on the other hand, i'm a californian, and when i see the mayor of los angeles want to lock down that city through the end of july, i just have to scratch my head. i think california, that's the only way i see california ever becoming a red state, because my folks back in orange county are not going to put up with that kind of nonsense. and it is nonsense. >> peter navarro, the defense production coordinator and adviser on trade and manufacturing policy as well, thanks for coming on and sharing the administration's views. i appreciate it. >> great to talk with you today, sir. when we come back, another result of the coronavirus pandemic. conspiracy theories. >> i don't even know if i really believe in it, to tell you the truth. i think there's something going on, but i don't think all this illness is related to the virus. >> the belief in conspiracies that has thrived along with the

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welcome back. viruses breed more than disease. they breed belief in conspiracies as well. we saw that in the open up the country protest this week across the country. >> i don't believe that this was a health issue to begin with. >> anybody who has a decent thought process can see that there's more going on than the virus. >> in the past three months, there's been a spike in belief in conspiracies. virtually all of them without factual basis. which makes them impossible to disprove. and that's the point. joining me now is nbc news national security analyst clint watts who specializes in tracking how conspiracies form and spread. he's a senior fellow at the foreign policy alliance institute for securing democracy. clint, it's good to see you. good to see that you're safe. let me start with this. you have a way of mapping these conspiracies out and how they catch on. and you described it this way. how to build a disinformation

bonfire, and in this case, like a bonfire, the first thing you need is a spark. and the spark being a theory is put online. in this case, why are these sparks so potent this time? >> when we are scared, chuck, and in the time of a pandemic when we're not really sure what to believe, we're fearful, both for our life and the health of our families, we tend to take in information we might not otherwise consider. when you see these sparks thrown out there, there is a demand signal as well for it. people want to know, are they safe, can i trust this information, and then people that have, you know, different agendas, maybe it's anti-vax, maybe it's reopening the country, maybe it's a conspiracy by elites. if you throw all those sparks at the same time, it can start that fire of disinformation. >> clint, what's amazing about this spark, and we're trying to be careful here not to give more attention to it, but there's this book and this movie that's circulated online.

while a bunch of tech companies got rid of it, the book itself is number one -- you know, number one amazon bestseller. number three "new york times." both are putting it in the nonfiction category. >> chuck, this is a super-organized effort. you have multiplatform multimedia. you have people who know how to push this stuff in the social media environment. you have people that know how to make a very high-production video that's very engaging. it makes you want to start to engage in these conspiracies, and then you have all of the so-called background. this is that book, this is many, many websites that are out there talking about health or health risks related to vaccines. when you put all of this together, it's hard not to encounter the information, and the more you see something, the more you'll believe it or even if you know it's false, you'll start to consider it. >> let's go back to the bonfire. the spark, this theory, this book, this movie. then you get the kindling. that is all of a sudden you have

a whole bunch of fringe groups pick up on the spark. >> chuck, what's amazing in this time of the pandemic is how many conspiracies, we were talking about 5g three weeks ago. we're talking about essentially an elite organized corrupt big pharma vaccine conspiracy theory this time. it touches on many audiences. that kindling is when many fringe or alternative media sites pick up and astroturf this content. they repeat it over and over again and try to amplify it in social media. that creates the kindling which starts that fire, which elevates it not only in social media but up to the mainstream media where people have to start to address it. >> four years ago, this disinformation campaign started internationally, and domestic actors picked it up. it appears this is just the opposite this time? we're doing it to ourselves, but the international folks are goosing it a little bit, aren't they? >> chuck, when i talked to you

three years ago about disinformation coming from russia, it was something they had to push along. they had to pick and grab certain things in the u.s., but they also made their own conspiracies to push. that's no longer the case. right now, whether it's russia, iran, china, or any other u.s. adversary, there's plenty of u.s.-made disinformation which they can pick and choose, amplify, and send back into the u.s. audience space, seeking to divide us, seeking to erode trust in the institution, seeking to erode trust in our health care system which is something that's essential at this point. >> and then of course, that leads to number three in your disinformation bonfire ingredients here, the gasoline. social media becomes the gasoline. it's on social media, you say, that suddenly you get trust -- people who appear to be trusted verifiers like celebrities. >> chuck, if you can get your kindling to boil over into that

bonfire sort of stage, what you see is a celebrity or an expert, even if they're refuting a conspiracy, can elevate it so there are more eyeballs on it. if you get just a select group, maybe three to five social media influencers who have an outsized reach in terms of audience, they can bring these conspiracies up to a level that's almost unmanageable. you can't even put the fire out at that point. >> let's talk about two aspects of this, though, that are a challenge here. one is, a lot of people are going to criticize us for covering this, because they're going to argue that we're amplifying or bringing attention to these conspiracies. what do you say to that? >> if you don't address the conspiracy and it continues, if there's no rebuttal, people tend to believe things that have no rebuttal. if you don't rebut it, then the conspiracy continues to spread. at the same point, if you actually go and challenge the conspiracy, sometimes it can draw more attention to it, it can draw more evaluation.

it's a delicate balance in the media and social media companies about how to police this sort of information. the key things to look at is, where is this outlet, who is producing this information, how are they making their money, or is this for an idealogical cause? and the second is the experts. why are they experts in this field and should you trust them? >> what do you do if you're amazon? this was self-published on amazon. this is why it's, you know, gotten out of the imprimatur of saying this is a "new york times" bestseller, which in and of itself gives it legitimacy. >> what was facebook, twitter, youtube, trying to police disinformation has now spread to products. in the health space, we have to determine how do we police this sort of information? >> clint watts, this is a difficult subject. but we thought it was one that's more important to bring some sunlight to. thanks for coming on and sharing your expertise with us. >> thanks for having me, chuck. >> you got it. when we come back, former

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welcome back. panel is with us from their remote-ish locations. yamiche alcindor for pbs newshour. peter alexander, white house correspondent for us here at nbc news, and anna palmer, senior washington correspondent for politico and coauthor of politico's playbook. well, peter, i assumed i would have been starting with a tweet from the president this morning

responding to president obama. that hasn't happened yet. let's play a little bit of president obama not so subtly taking a dig at the pandemic response from national leadership. >> more than anything, this pandemic has fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what they're doing. a lot of them aren't even pretending to be in charge. if the world's going to get better, it's going to be up to you. >> peter, i assume this becomes something that's a bit of a -- a bit of an attention seeker for the president today. >> well, we have seen it over the course of the last several days from president trump attacking his predecessor, barack obama, what he calls obamagate. this weekend he's at camp david meeting with some of his conservative allies. a white house official telling me it's certain their desire so far fruitless to try to show evidence that president obama committed a crime. the president was asked that

very question, president trump, this week. the president couldn't identify what crime he's accusing president obama of, but i'm told by this official it's certain they'll be discussing that topic there. but what this really underscores is the break in what was that presidential tradition, where there wasn't any criticism sort of back and forth. you've seen it. last night, you saw barack obama speaking at a commencement address to americans. one vision of leadership, versus what we have seen from president trump in recent days. they each offered one word they punctuated this week. from president trump trying to knock out joe biden at the same time he knocks on barack obama. he said obamagate. from barack obama, he said vote, chuck. >> yamiche alcindor, look, former president obama, you know, he's careful with his words. that's a written speech. that's a vetted speech. he made this decision to engage. it is going to spark a political back and forth. >> it is, but i think what we see now is president obama really getting into general election territory and starting to gear up the might of the

obama name. he is ready for this fight. he was at first caught really on a private call talking to staffers, and he was trying to get them excited about joe biden, saying that president trump's response to the coronavirus was a chaotic disaster. that was, of course, president obama's direct words. what you see there is president obama coming to the defense of his vice president and coming to his own defense without actually directly talking about this conspiracy theory that president trump is now talking about, which is whether or not president trump -- or president obama broke some sort of law. i think what you see, though, this week is president trump really leaning in on his 2016 instincts. he's back where he was in 2016, which is he's going on the offensive with obama. he's also in some ways leaning and not listening to the scientists, saying hey, you really need to slow down and be cautious about reopening. this week he said, i think it was the line of the week, vaccine or no vaccine, we're back. he could have said, tests or no tests, we're back. scientists or no scientists,

we're back. the clear sign is we're back in his mind. >> you know, anna palmer, i want to play, and speaking of the president, he continues to believe that if we overfocus on the health issues, we are going to do worse economic damage. take a listen to how he portrayed the death toll earlier this week. >> i have lost friends, many of us have lost friends. we read about that, and we see that, and that's what the news covers, but a very, very -- that's a very small percentage. it's a very, very small percentage. i say it all the time. it's a tiny percentage. the vast majority, many people don't even know they have it. >> anna palmer, among congressional republicans, how much do they sort of lean toward that view of sort of this balance between health security and economic security? >> i think there's the issue of this president has never been very good with empathy. and certainly, as a country,

when that death toll is rising, almost 90,000, and clearly it looks like there's going to be tens of thousands more deaths on the horizon, that republicans are concerned. but they have not broken with this president on this issue or on very few others. i do think, to your point earlier about obamagate and how the president is really trying to rally his troops and making this a campaign issue, you have seen a little bit of space between where congressional republicans are, where mitch mcconnell is, where even his allies like senator lindsey graham, saying you should be careful what you wish for if you really want me to bring former president barack obama up to the hill to actually testify. >> anna palmer, i wants to stick with congress for a second. jay powell, the federal reserve chair, seemed to make it clear this week that he wants to see congress act, and i'm curious what mattered more to mitch mcconnell, jay powell's comments or nancy pelosi's ability to pass her $3 trillion package?

>> i mean, congress is nowhere on a package. the republicans and democrats haven't even started talking. if you speak to republicans behind the scenes, they're projecting another bill won't even be really seriously looked at for several weeks. and on a more aggressive timeline, potentially try to pass it before the july 4th recess. but really, right now, you're not seeing mitch mcconnell having any sense of urgency to take up a package, whether or not jay powell is urging them, saying we need more action soon. >> peter alexander, i want to read for you here very quickly a mitt romney tweet about the late night announcement on friday night that the president planned to fire -- planned to fire another inspector general, steve linick. this one at the state department. said mitt romney, the firings of multiple inspectors general is unprecedented. doing so without good cause chills the purpose. chills the independence essential to their purpose. it as threat to accountable

democracy and a fissure in the constitutional balance of power. what i found interesting is that peter, the white house went on the record to say, wasn't the president -- the president made this decision after it was requested by secretary of state mike pompeo. >> you're exactly right. it's not just mitt romney, by the way. chuck grassley among those also critical of this decision. the third time in six weeks on a friday night that the president has ousted one of the independent watchdogs, these inspector generals here. it was striking they would say pompeo recommended this and that president trump followed suit. given the fact there's reporting from democratic aides that pompeo is being investigated by the state department inspector general for basically having a political appointee do some tasks on his behalf. this was on, i asked a white house official. they said this is not the way i would have put it. back to you, chuck. >> very interesting there, peter alexander. all right. when we come back, how the economic fallout of covid-19 can also spread like a virus.

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♪ welcome back. data download time. the economic toll of covid-19 becomes more apparent with each new set of job and sales figures. but the pain is not spread evenly across the country. at least not yet. the month of april saw 20.5 million jobs lost across the u.s. economy with many sectors losing millions. manufacturing lost 1.3 million. retail, 2.1 million. 2.5 million from education and health services. but the biggest decline, not surprisingly, was from leisure and hospitality. a whopping 7.7 million jobs lost, 38% of all job losses in april alone. but even among leisure and hospitality jobs, the losses are not evenly spread, as we see in

an analysis from a labor market analytics firm. for instance, the performing arts and sports cut 217,000 jobs last month. hotels and accommodations lost about 839,000 positions. amusements and lost a million jobs. and then the hardist hit of all, food services. everything from full-service restaurants to bars and caterers lost 5.5 million jobs. hot hotels, restaurants, gambling, casinos, you look at those categories and you see how a city like las vegas can be facing an economic catastrophe in this pandemic. 30% of their workforce is unemployed right now in the battle, alone, folks. in addition, the distress can spread to related sectors much like a virus. retail lost 71,000 positions because of the job losses in leisure and hospitality. finance and insurance lost 109,000 jobs. manufacturing lost 184,000. and real estate, that's sales, rental and leasing, lost more

than 400,000. so, when you add in all the secondary impacts from leisure and hospitality, that initial 7.7 million jobs lost in the sector grows markedly. as many as 10.1 million jobs were lost in april just because of ties to leisure and hospitality. folks, these are scary times. just because you have a job now doesn't mean your industry is immune to similar ripple effects. no matter how essential you think your job is. as the old adage goes, it's a recession when your neighbor loses his job. it's a depression when you lose your own. when we come back, what's behind president trump's strategy in going after president obama? now more than ever, you need technology you can rely on. and people you can rely on. i'm a dell technologies advisor. me too. me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you. we are with you. we're with you. we want to help. so we'll be right here. at home. answering your calls.

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welcome gak back. as we teased out earlier, obama v. trump, what is it about at this point? and if comes as an awkward time for the biden campaign because on one hand, they want obama -- impr impropeteur of obama is why he's the nominee. biden has his own challenges here. "the new york times" put in this week, mr. biden's inability to influence the debate about the kstz kz h coronavirus has worried donors, former officials who want mr. biden to be more visible. he rarely goes on offense against mr. trump in ways that have lasting impact." i mean, in some ways it's obama that did the tough work this weekend. >> that's right. that's right. and there are, of course, limits to what joe biden can do from

his basement when we see the president now travel to key states like arizona and pennsylvania. i've been talking to officials on the biden campaign. and they say they think that he's reaching the people that he needs to reach from his basement. they feel like their numbers is strong. there is this question of whether or not he should be doing more. they say this election, biden officials, say this election is going to be about president trump's handling of the coronavirus and on that note, joe biden has been pretty critical of the way that president trump has handled the virus. i think that's why you see president trump moving toward this idea that he wants to go back talking about the economy because that's what he hoped to run on. peter navarro, i think there was an interesting moment there you were pushing him on the national stockpile and he didn't want to come to the defense of the president, instead he said i don't want to look in the rearview mirror. >> right. >> that could be a problem for the trump administration going forward. >> uh-huh. anna palmer, it is sort of odd to see biden have so little apparent interaction with the congressional democratic leadership right now. >> absolutely. i mean, i think one of the

struggles that the biden campaign is having right now is, one, that democrats help all the time. president trump soaks up all of the oxygen. there doesn't seem to be a lot of alignment or coordination among, you know, speaker nancy pelosi saying, look to joe biden and his plan on this. she is leading completely on her own. i think the other real question is when is he going to have a breakout moment? can he do it from his basement? the there's so much effort and reporting on who's going to be his v.p. is that going to give him a bump? something democrats are worried about, a lot of operatives i'm talking to, too, when is he going to have that moment? without the campaign and being out there, is obama going to be his rallying cry? that's a big issue for them. >> and, peter alexander, you know, one thing about president trump, some people overread his, what he does, his strategy, i think some people underlook at some of his moves about

strategy. he seems to be wanting to make obama as polarizing as he possibly can. he clearly seems to be nervous that obama could be an effective surrogate for biden. >> yeah, chuck, i think you're exactly right. former president barack obama remains the most popular political figure in the country right now. it's obvious. you can read right into it. white house officials will tell you as much. the president's trying to chip away at that popularity. try to make the former president a polarizing figure here. but his obsession with barack obama dates back to the origins of his getting into politics. right, with birtherism back in 2011. accusing obama of tapping my wires. even after he became president. he's at it again right now. the hope for the president is that he needs -- the thinking is that he needs to pivot to the election right now. jared kushner, what i was speaking to officials behind closed doors, i said who's the most powerful person in the white house besides the president? they laughed and said, of course, it's jared kushner whose focus hasn't just been the economy but also the political campaign that's ahead for this president. they recognize that barack obama is also in some ways on the

ticket alongside joe biden. >> now, peter, though, every time he's picked a fight with obama, obama's one of the few that seem to regularly, at least even in trump's own mind, get the best of him because he's actually retreated at times from obama fights. >> yeah, no, think that's right. i think that's right as well. we've seen that again, here the president, though, leaning in on this occasion. as someone said, as it relates to what the president calls obamagate. they said this is not about changing votes, it's about motivating -- >> right. >> -- our voters. the president's focused on his base with this new commentary. >> base. all right. that is all we have for today. thank you, panel. thank you for watching. thank you for trusting us. we leave you this morning with the choir from last night's graduati graduation, graduated together event. it's an amazing, amazing moment. and we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

♪ oh say does that star-spangled banner yet wave ♪ a global pandemic with no end in sight. and every government decision could mean life or death. >> if you do not do an adequate response, we will have the deleterious consequence of more infections and more deaths. >> tonight, former vice president joe biden on exactly what he would do differently from president trump. >> our family members and friends and neighbors are dying. while trump is having a temper tantrum. >> how does the apparent democratic nominee get his message out in a time of isolation? >> i'm anxious to go out and campaign. >> tonight, lawrence o'donnell goes one-on-one with joe biden and later joined by stacey abrams, a leading voice for the democrats. >> i'm working hard to lobby

congress to ensure we have vote-by-mail in every case. >> her cause to push for fair and free elections taking on new urgency in the age of coronavirus. >> we can both have a dedemocra, elections and the same time correct the public health. >> all that and your questions. this is a special edition of "the last word," squjoe biden w stacey abrams. >> joe biden announced his run for president, covid-19 did not exist. the coronavirus pandemic threatens the lives of every man, woman and child in the united states. you have heard joe biden on all of the other issues that were raised in the several presidential campaign debate de. now it's time to hear from joe biden about the issues that will dominate the rest of the presidential campaign. issues of life and death. if joe biden is sworn in as the next president on january 20th, your life and your children's lives and your parents' lives and your grandparents' lives are going to depend on the work that

joe biden starts doing that afternoon in the oval office, in the cabinet room, in the situation room. we're going to ask joe biden to take us inside those rooms with him tonight and tell us exactly what he would do on the afternoon of inauguration day if he is elected president. when i say, "we," i mean you with be joining in the questioning because we will turn this hour into a town hall of sorts with questions from you, our viewers, for joe biden and stacey abrams when she joins us later in this hour. stacey abrams is the head of an organization called fair fight, which is devoted to making sure that all voters will be able to cast their votes for president on november 3rd without any interference with their voting rights. and stacey abrams now has the new mission of making sure that you can cast your vote safely in the age of coronavirus by mail, if necessary. stacey abrams will join us later in this hour. we begin tonight with the

numbers. as of tonight, there are now 1,425,733 confirmed cases of coronavirus and as of tonight, this country has suffered at least 86,676 deaths from coronavirus. and there is a third number that would be the only number we talk about tonight if it were simply the result of changing economic conditions. instead of it being the result of a deadly pandemic sweeping the world. and that third number is the largest number of people filing for unemployment benefits in the history of the unemployment program. with an additional 3 million people reported filing today bringing the total to 36.5 million people claiming unemployment benefits. the unemployment rate is now 14.7% and going up from there. that is the highest unemployment rate since the great depression of the 1930s.

when democrat franklin roosevelt beat an incumbent republican president in the 1932 election, president roosevelt was sworn in in 1933 facing a 25% unemployment rate but he was not also facing a deadly virus that was killing more than 100,000 people, as the coronavirus will surely do before the next presidential naugs ratiinaugura. joining us now is former vice president joe biden. democratic candidate for president. thank you very much for joining us tonight, mr. vice president. we really appreciate you being here. we're going to go straight to this -- >> lawrence, thanks for having me. >> thank you. of -- toii want to go right int day one of your presidency. let's assume the conditions we have today because dr. fauci, anthony fauci guarantees us, he's used the word, "guarantee," for a second wave. that second wave would surely be breaking in january. combined with the regular flu season. you can imagine 1,700 people dying a day as is happening now.

we can imagine hundreds of thousands more infections happening throughout the country. and, and the very same time, you have this astronomical depression-level unemployment rate. so, your inauguration will be quick. it will not have a parade if the conditions are the same as today. it will probably take place indoors. maybe in the rotunda of the capitol. you'll be able to get right back to the oval office by 1:00 p.m. you walk back into the west wing of the who's. secretary of labor's waiting with those frightening unemployment statistics. secretary of health and human services is there. dr. fauci will probably still be there. or will have been rehired by you if he's been fired. where do you start? who do you talk to first? what's the decision sequence? >> first of all, it's going to depend on how much worse this president makes it between now and january the 20th of 2021. the fact is that it can get even

worse than it is now. he has delayed, delayed, delayed, from the very beginning his willingness to go out and deal can this crisis. he's ignored it. he said it was going to go away. it was going to be a miracle. he wasted an awful lot of time and i think as a consequence an awful lot of lives were lost in the meantime. coronavirus is not -- he didn't cause the coronavirus but he has not reacted well. but one thing you're going to have to do, you're going to have to have by that time, between the time of being elected and the time of being sworn in, have put together a team of people that's going to deal with this in a way that hadn't been dealt with up to that point. at least probably will not have been dealt with. one, tell the american people the truth. look at the science. put together a board, a pandemic board, like we did in world war ii when president roosevelt put together a board that related to dealing with how we're going to deal with world war ii. this is a requirement that we have the best people in the

world sitting there advising me and the country as to what has to be done. in the meantime, it's going to matter, lawrence, whether or not between now and then, this president has used his powers and used the organizational ability that the white house had, that the president has, to make sure we have enough ppp, those protective gear, for this second wave if there's going to be that second wave which is predictable. to make sure we're going to have in place all the tests that we need, all the tests we need, and able to track and test, test and follow-on when there is an outbreak, where it was. track and trace. all that requires equipment. it requires planning. it requires time. if that's been done, the task will be at least easier, will cost fewer lives. if it has not been done, it will be an absolute incredible

disaster beyond repair. >> mr. vice president, the -- one of the issues you're going to have to deal with in this pandemic, obviously, it's worldwide, so it's international relations. china, where this -- this virus began, is still going to be a major factor for you to contend with starting on your first day in the white house. let's listen just for a moment about how donald trump has dealt with, described, his view of china over the course of this pandemic. let's just listen to this. >> president xi loves the people of china. he loves his country. and he's doing a very good job with a very, very tough situation. he is very capable. the country is very capable. it could have been stopped right where it came from, china. i started calling it the chinese virus. could have been stopped in china before it started. and it wasn't. ask china that question.

okay? >> so, the president goes from saying china's doing a great job to it's all china's fault. how are you going to deal with china -- you have to have some level of cooperation with them in terms of research, in terms of medical supplies, many of which originate in china, but it's clearly a difficult relationship to manage, especially with the coronavirus. >> well, first of all, the president got it wrong from the beginning. absolutely missed any opportunity to get ahead of this. you know, back in january, i thnk it w think it was the 27th, he was saying -- praising china and talking about it not being a problem. we had put together in our administration an office within the white house to deal with future pandemics. they'd been briefed on it. "they" meaning the incoming administration. we had over 44, if i'm not mistak mistaken, people from the cdc, in china, in china, to observe what was going on. president brought home the vast majority of them.

i think left only four in place. i kept -- i wrote an article back in i think the 27th of january saying there's a pandemic is coming. we should insist on being in china to see for ourselves what was happening so we could be prepared. president said, no, no, they're doing a great job. this -- all this is -- everything is fine. the fact is that he has not been responsible at all from the very beginning. we lost at least three months of opportunity to get ahead of this. or at least to catch up with it. to catch up with the problem. and so the thing that i'd be doing is resetting that pandemic office in place, number one. making sure we had the cdc like we did in our administration forward based around the world so we could see these things coming because there will be more coming. the truth is trump was praising the chinese government, downplaying the threat to the american people. as i said, i was warning the need to get people into china to

see what was actually going on. and the chinese government's word, you know, we squandered critical time. and so i just don't -- and now he's trying to play this china card. i mean, i don't know what -- this is an unusual president. >> i want to go to the complexity of what you'll be facing on day one with all those cabinet members there. obviously, the secretary of state, if their nominations are pending, they'll still be there. the secretary of state will be concerned with not only the relation to china, all of this, but how a vaccine once it's developed can be distributed throughout the world because we know if we don't crush it throughout the world, it will come back to us. i just want to -- >> you got it. >> -- listen to for one second, mr. vice president, ms. garrett, a pulitzer prize winner, written about infectious diseases for

years. she was on this program the other night describing the complexities of the administration, a vaccine, once that vaccine is eventually developed. let's listen to the way she described those international complexities. >> it requires creating a profit motive scheme of some sort that brings the industry to the table without imagining the kind of profit returns they usually want from pharmaceuticals. and that means coming up with agreements with the world trade organization and with the trade-related intellectual property agreements and all sorts of instruments of international law. >> mr. vice president, you're familiar with all those instruments she's talking about. most of us are not. the vaccine, if developed, will happen at the earliest on the watch -- in the next presidential term, what would be your first presidential term. getting that vaccine out in the united states and helping it get distributed to the world would be your job. how would you approach it?

>> well, look, i'd approach it like we did in our administration when we dealt with ebola and we dealt with these other -- we organized the rest of the world. we got the rest of the world to come up with billions of dollars to deal with the problem. we did -- it wasn't a vaccine at the time. and now guess what's happened, there's been -- there was an international meeting of all those countries that are trying to work out and find answer to a vaccine. everyone showed up except us. united states was not there. not there. and we, in fact, the president said we're the best, we don't -- basically, we don't need anybody else's help. we're going to have to be in a position to be one of the leaders in the world to figure out how we can make sure that this vaccine is made available, first and foremost, in our case, to the people of the united states of america getting access to it, rural, all people, all people. that's going to be a very difficult thing to figure out how to get it out and around the country. but in addition to that, there are a lot of nations out there that have no capacity to pay for

any of this. and notwithstanding the profit motive. so what we're going to be in a position of having to do is get other governments to help fund, fund for the rest of the world, these vaccines made available in other parts of the world because as you said, lawrence, we may square it away here, but what happens if there's no vaccine in central and latin america? what happens if no vaccines in other parts of the world? as we learned by now, you can't build a wall high enough to keep out a virus, and so we should be leading the world and we are, once again, absent. we're not even in the discussion. we're not even in the discussion. what's going on in london right now, cambridge, they're on the verge, they think, of moving forward. if we don't participate at all, what makes us think we're going to be in on the deal? we must organize the world to deal with this so everyone has access. and it's going to kofrt acost a

us. if i can make an analogy, it's a little bit like, you know, we have the amazon burning, what's happening is it's the greatest carbon sink in the world, it absorbs more carbon into the earth than we emit in a day, every single day. and it's burning. what are we doing? the president's silting around doing nothing. we should be organizing the world saying we're going to raise $20 billion and go to the president of brazil and say, here's the deal, we're going to make sure that you don't have to burn the amazon to make a living in your country. this is what we're going to do, but guess what's happening, nothing. we're doing nothing. the same way -- things going to have to happen when you're going to have all these eastern european countries, those african countries, who don't have the capacity to pay for it. the nations of the world, major economic pourers to provide this capacity and has to be organized. organized. >> i want to open it up to our town hall component and get a

question from a voter. this first question, mr. vice president, from a voter in california. let's listen to this. >> okay. >> hi, vice president biden. >> i'm from san mateo, california. thank you for letting me participate in this town hall with you. >> thank you for participating. >> a quote from the famed archbishop you always recite, "faith sees best in dark." i find it so profound what's going on in america today. so many families across this country going through tough times. as someone who's lost a wife and a daughter and a son and knows what it's like to go through loss, what advice would you give to a family who's lost someone to covid-19? thank you. >> well, first of all, you know, the folks who recently lost someone to covid-19, over 86,000, almost 87,000 of them now, they feel like there's a black hole in the middle of their chest, they're being sucked into it and they're frightened and they're scared

and they don't know what to do. all i can tell them is that it will take time, but in time, what's going to happen is you're going to find that when you think of that son, daughter, husband, wife, mother, father, you lost, you're going to get a smile on your lip before you get a tear in your eye and that's when you know you're going to make it. and the way you make it, at least in my experience, so many people have gone through much worse than i have, losing a wife, daughter, then a son, to cancer, is you have to have a purpose, purpose will drive you to be able to get -- to control your life. the purpose will be, many of these people, what do we do to make like better? better for other people. how could we have avoided what happened here? what are the things you want to do? are we going to do things like making sure those first responders who lost their lives and those, the remainder, who are getting paid essentially minimum wage get a fair deal?

they're carrying us on their bike. they're carrying the country on their back right now and they're not being treated with dignity and respect. i think the way they'll find -- right now, that's of no solace to anybody who recently lost somebody. it's of no solace. what i have to say is, they're still with you, they're in your heart, part of your soul. it's who you are and you've got to have faith that the time will come, the time will come when you'll get through this veil of darkness. you really will. but the best way to get through it is with a sense of purpose and realizing he or she is with you. they're in you. they're part of you. they never go away. and they'll advise you, they'll be there with you and you've got to move. you got to get up, as my dad would say, you know, when you get knocked down, just got to get up. just get up. and think to yourself, what would they want you to do? what would they want you to do? they'd want you to get up. they'd want you to be safe. they'd want you to move on. that's all i can really say, quite frankly, and it's of no

solace to anybody who's recently lost someone and this has all been recent. >> mr. vice president, before we go to a break, before we bring in stacey abrams, i want to ask you about the tara reade story and you served in the senate for about 36 years. senator from delaware. you were chairman of committees. having worked in the senate, myself, i'm just in my head doing the number numbers. you have to have had well over a thousand senate staffers between the committee staff, the delaware senate staff. do you remember tara reade who worked there for about around a year in 1992-1993? >> well, to be honest with you, i don't, but, look, let me get something clear. when a woman makes a claim that she has been harassed or abused, and this claim has changed as it's gone on, but harassed or abused, she should be taken seriously. she comes forward, shares her story, she should be taken seriously and it should be thoroughly vetted.

and every case what matters is the truth. truth is what matters. and the truth of the case is nothing like this ever, ever happened. she has a right to be heard, but then it should be vetted and the truth ultimately matters. and i give you my word, it never, ever happened. >> let me ask you about a piece, an op-ped piece in "the new york times," it was entitled, "i believe tara reade, i'm voting for joe biden, anyway." this is an accusation, she says there were no witnesses to this, it happened in a semi -- or in a public place the way she describes it in the basement of the senate. that might sound like a private place, but as you and i both know, that's a thoroughfare, that's a very busy area. but there are no witnesses to it so it's your word saying it didn't happen and now her version of it is that it did happen. what do you say to women who were ready to vote for joe biden, eager to vote for joe biden, but this gives them

serious pause because they do believe tara reade and you're not going to change their mind about that. what would you say to them about their vote? >> i think they should vote their heart, and if they believe tara reade, they probably shouldn't vote for me. i wouldn't vote for me if i believed tara reade. the fact is that look at tara reade's story. it changes considerably. and so -- but i don't want to question her motive. i don't want to question anything other than to say the truth matters. this is being vetted. it's been vetted. they went -- and people interviewed scores of my employees over my whole career. this is just totally thoroughly, completely out of character. and the idea that in a public place, in a hallway, i would assault a woman, i mean, it -- i mean, i -- anyway, i promise you, it never happened. it should be vetted. she should be thoroughly looked at and whether or not these

happen, look at the story, follow the story line, and determine whether there's any truth to it and there is no truth to it. i promise you. >> i want to go back to where we began which is this possibility of a biden inauguration day in january, which would be in the middle of the second wave, it could be a very dark time, and when we think of inaugural addresses, of course, the one that many people remember vividly, word for word, john fitzgerald kennedy saying, "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." it seems like if you're delivering the next inaugural address, that formulation is going to be reversed because everyone in this country is going to be looking at you and saying, what can you do for me? i am out of work, i need a job, i have lost my mother, i've lost my brother, i am suffering. that is going to be, it seems to me, a moment where a president is going to have to say what that president can do for them. what will you say? >> i will say, i guarantee you, number one, i will tell you the

truth. the american people, to paraphrase franklin roosevelt, the american people are strong. they're tough. they know -- they want to know the truth. they can handle the truth. what they can't handle is lie -- or lies. and i will be level with them straight-up. i'll tell them what the science is as best we know it. i'll lay out to them how, in fact, we can -- once we get by restimulating the economy and getting people back moving so they're able to keep their homes and keep their apartments and be able to have the food available on their tables that they need, that in the meantime, while we have unemployment -- if the unemployment rate is as high as it is now or higher like it was with roosevelt, i will tell them the government, the government has an obligation to see to it that you are held harmless in terms of being able to -- where you live, being able to pay for

your medical bills, being able to do whatever you need to do to take care of your family. and then i will tell them, what i'm going to do as we bend this curve and break it so that we're in a position that we're going to rebuild the country. we're going to rebuild this country better than it was found. that's no solace to someone who lost a family member, but we're going to rebuild it better than we found it. look, lawrence, i talked a lot -- i've been on your program a lot even before i announced i was going to run restoring the soul of america. we're seeing the soul of america mow. average americans doing extraordinary things, risking in some cases giving their lives to carry the rest of us on their back, whether they're grocery store clerks or truck drivers or whether they are people working as nurses or people working as -- as child aides, whatever. we have to right the wrongs that are being exposed that exist now. all those people are doing that are the people that most -- most people did not spend a lot of

time, did not spend a lot of time thinking about. and now they've seen how courageous they've been, what they've done. it's time to make it right. and we can begin to do that by providing recovery that, in fact, will create millions of new jobs, make sure that we're building a new infrastructure, putting people to work in ways that deal with the institutional racism, intuitionstitutional ba that existed and i'll explain what those are, how we're going to get to it. >> mr. vice president, stay with us. when we return -- >> sure. >> -- we're going to be joined in our discussion by stacey abrams. joe biden and stacey abrams on television together for the first time. that's next. i just love hitting the open road and telling people

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in her last campaign many 2018 stacey abrams came within 1.5% of winning the race for governor in georgia. the abrams campaign taught democrats two things. one, georgia can be a competitive state for democrats

if they an get out the vote. two, republicans will do everything they can to prevent voters from getting to the polls. stacey abrams used that experience to form the mission statement of fair fight, an organization devoted to making sure all voters will be able to cast their votes for president on november 3rd without any interference with their voting rights. former vice president joe biden is back with us. joining our discussion now from atlanta is stacey abrams. founder of fair fight. organization fighting for fair and free elections with voter protection teams in 18 battleground states. stacey abrams, thank you very much for joining us tonight. pardon me for a minute. i want to begin this with a question to joe biden. stacey abrams is here because joe biden invited stacey abrams to be here, so, mr. vice president, do you have an announcement to make? is this an audition? is there -- what is the reason

you decided it's time for me to get on tv with stacey abrams? >> well, because stacey abrams has done more to deal with the fair vote and making sure there is a fair vote than anybody and she has a great, great capacity to explain things and to lay out exactly why it's going to be so critically important in this election. this president's already said when they put in a stimulus package the congress first passed money to provide for mail-in ballots, he already said, i'm not for that. if we do that, we'll -- no republican will ever win or something to that effect. he's made it clear, this is a guy who said he wants to defund the post office from being able to deliver ballots. i mean, so, stacey knows what she's doing. and she's an incredibly capable person. >> all right. well, let's actually listen to what donald trump said about mail-in ballots. we have that here. and full disclosure, before you

listen to what donald trump says about this, the one thing i have in common with donald trump is that we both vote by mail. now, let's listen to this. >> so, the problem with the mail-in ballots, it's subject to tremendous corruption. tremendous corruption. cheating. so i'm against it. >> stacey abrams, he's against it. a lot of republicans are against whatever it is you're trying to do, whatever your next idea is, that you think will help get out the vote and so they used to be in favor of mail-in ballots and now here we are. >> well, thank you for having me and thank you so much to vice president biden for including me in this conversation. whether you're thinking about what happened in georgia in 2018 when thousands of georgians were denied the right to be heard or what we saw happen in wisconsin, where 52 people at last count contracted covid because they forced to cast their ballot

in-person. we know that vote-by-mail is the safest and most accessible way of making sure that every american can be heard on november 3rd. the reality is that it's safe, that there is no fraud of any consequence. in fact, in every single state that's used vote-by-mail regularly, oregon for the last 20 years, the number of people who committed fraud is negligible. what is more telling is they don't want the voices of people suffering from covid-19, s suffering from a collapsed economy and suffering from the coward dis cowardice of donald trump, don't want their voices heard at the ballot. we can also create accessible spaces for people to vote in person early and in person on the day of. because if you're disabled, if you're homeless, if you've been displaced by covid, if you have language barriers and if you're native american, we need you to be able to go into the polling places but make sure there's enough space to meet the cdc guidelines. we got to get as many people as

possible to vote by mail. every state can do it. we simply have to invest in it and put in the guardrails to make it possible for every american who's eligible to vote. >> the -- we are concentrating on covid-19 tonight because no presidential campaign has ever experienced anything like this. it's obviously going to be the most important thing that the president faces after the next inauguration, but the world does not stop for the president on all other issues of concern. and stacey abrams, in georgia, for example, we saw the shooting of ahmaud arbery and there's an example of where the tensions, the kind of racial tensions and value issues that actually got joe biden into this campaign, according to his campaign announcement, came to us in a graphic and very, very disturbing way. are you concerned that in the next presidency with the president concentrated so much on the pandemic that it will be very difficult to get

presidential attention to issues like the kind of racial injustice that we've seen in that incident? >> not at all. not if we have a president of competence and courage like joe biden. let's remember that not only was ahmaud arbery murdered in cold blood in daylight, breonna taylor was murdered in her home while sleeping. only in america in 2020 is jogging while black and sleeping while black a cause for killing. what we know is we have to not only rebuild america, but as joe biden has said so eloquently, we have to restore the soul of america. that means criminal justice reform that holds all bad actors accountable. whether it's the vigilantes who decided to murder ahmaud arbery or the d.a.s who passed up the responsibility to actually prosecute the case or the police officers that stormed into br breonna taylor's home and shot her without having a warrant and without having cause, we know that we can be a better country if we do our job. rebuilding our democracy means making sure that we restore our

soul and we treat every citizen as valid and equally deserving of justice. i stand with joe biden because he will take no person for granted and more importantly, he has spent 40 years lifting up the cause of justice and working hard to make things better and i believe that he will continue to do so as the next president of the united states. >> vice president biden -- >> can i -- >> go ahead, please, go ahead. >> well, you know, lawrence, i p think it's going to -- i don't think i'm being poly annish about this but i think what's happened is during this pandemic, prior to it with the actions of this president with his lying and cheating and the way he's pitted people from the very beginning against one another based on race, ethnicity, and the like, i think that the blinders have been taken off. good people who hadn't focused on this before, hadn't focused on it before, are all of a sudden saying, my god, i did not have any idea how deeply this

institutional racism runs. i did not realize it. i did not realize that just because you live in a majority black county you are six times more likely, three times for likely, to get this virus and six times more likely to die than if you live in an all-white -- i did not realize -- and they look at the people who are out there breaking their neck to save all the rest of us. and there are people -- there are minorities. they are people who are making minimum wage or sub minimum wage. there are people out there doing incredible things. showing the soul america -- their soul. i think they're really ready to say, enough, enough, enough. i think we have an opportunity, a genuine opportunity, to deal with the institutional racism that exists not only against american blacks but all minorities, browns and across the board. i really think the public has said, i don't believe this. i didn't bloelieve this.

but i see it in my own eyes and they're ready to respond. i don't think the next president, whether it was me or someone else who got the nomination, would be -- have any trouble making the case to the american people that we must deal with this institutional racism that exists. >> all right. we're going to take a break here and -- >> lawrence, if i could add -- >> sorry, we're going to have to get this break in and we will be right back. when we come back, we will include some town hall input in this program. questions from voters for vice president joe biden and for stacey abrams and stacey abrams is going to tell you whatever it was she was just about to tell you when this commercial interrupted her. we'll be right back. for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test.

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we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. we're back with vice president joe biden and stacey abrams and we're going to get to some voters' questions in just a moment. but i want to begin by allowing stacey abrams to continue making the point she was making when that commercial so rudely interrupted her.

please. go ahead. >> well, thank you, lawrence. i just wanted to tie both of the questions together. our ability to vote is exactly how we will solve one of the challenges that the vice president lifts up which is that we have to have the ability to elect district attorneys who actually respect our people. that we can elect people as our sheriffs who actually execute the laws properly. i had a conversation last night with the arbery family and with activists down in brunswick. what they wanted more than anything is to serve the memory of ahmaud arbery by fixing what is broken in our country. i think that's what we have to take into the voting booths in november and presidency and white house in january. >> all right. we're going to open up the town hall and go to our voters' questions. these questions were submitted on video earlier today. let's go to the first question. >> hello. my name is adrianne. i'm a middle school counselor in vancouver, washington.

so i work with a lot of families that really struggle. and i just am wondering, it seems appalling that someone who would lose their job in the middle of a pandemic would also lose their health care. and doesn't this seem to make medicare for all or single payer health care seem more important to you? >> vice president biden, what's your view of medicare for all now? and i know you've had a chance to talk to senator sanders about it. >> well, i have. number one, the quickest way to get that health care is to do two things. the middle of this pandemic to make sure the federal government says no one will have to pay for any cost related to the covid testing and/or follow-up if anything is wrong and you have to be hospitalized. secondly, there are 26 million people who, in fact, have lost their jobs at their companies -- they paid into a health insurance policy they liked. there's a thing called cobra.

that means that the portion that the company that can no longer pay in their share of that -- that -- that health care policy, that would be paid fully by the federal government while this pandemic lasts. thirdly, the best way to move forward and get it done immediately is to withdraw the lawsuit that the president has to do away with obamacare and add the public option i'm supporting that i have -- as part of my plan, making sure that everyone is going to be able to have access to health care at an affordable cost across the board and those who can't afford it because they're unemployed or don't have a job, they would automatically be enrolled in public option which is a medicare-like option. they would be automatically covered with no cost. it's the quickest, fastest, way to get it done. >> the next question is for stacey abrams. let's listen to that. >> hi. my name is jordan evans, and i'm from haverill, massachusetts.

given the recent news that russia is still actively attempting to interfere in our electoral process, what steps does our country need to take to ensure that our system is secure from meddling and that everyone who would like to cast a vote will be able to, especially in the middle of this pandemic? thank you. >> thank you, jordan, for the question. the reality is that unless mitch mcconnell allows election security laws to move forward, we're going to be ham strung when it comes to actually addressing russia, burma, any country that's decided they want to attack us, but what we can do is fix what we have at home. we can respond to republican misinformation by ensuring good information gets out to every single voter, people understand that vote-by-mail is safe and accessible, it's not subject to fraud. we can pass the heroes act which will infuse $3.6 billion into our voting infrastructure in every single state.

what we're doing through fair fight action is working in 18 states protecting more than 100 million voters, but we can't do it alone. we need the federal government to protect every voter in our country. that means in-person voting, making sure we don't shut down polling places. it means early voting, 15 days, so people have the opportunity to vote when they get off work, but that we also have vote-by-mail which is one of the most secure ways to vote because you can audit paper ballots. if people can send in those mail-in ballots, if we have aud aud auditable technology, do the work, make our votes secure. i'll tell you this, voter suppression works best when people don't vote. when people are pushed out of the process because they're afraid to vote or think it won't work. the way to overcome voter misinformation, russian interference, is to overwhelm the polls with our presence. we have to vote in numbers we have not seen before. let me tell you it's possible. president moon in south korea just held the single largest election since the 1990s in the

country of south korea and let's understand that they had their first moments of covid-19 at the same time the united states did. if south korea can hold its largest, most invested election in the midst of covid-19 on april 15th, we can get this done by november but only if we pass the heroes act and get it done now. >> vice president biden, before we go to the next break, there is a bipartisan bill developing in the house of representatives that we discussed on this program the other night that would allow, authorize funding for hiring 100,000 contact tracers to go to work throughout the united states. this would be basically a jobs program. desperately needed and, obviously, fulfilling a very critical tool in fighting the coronavirus. desperately needed. do you support that? >> i strongly support it, and a lot of those people are the very people who did, worked in job corps, the people who have worked in the peace corps and other public service jobs.

we know, we know that until there's a vaccine, the only fundamental way to change the dynamic is test and trace. test and trace. and hiring these people will provide jobs, number one, but even more importantly, it will allow us to gain criminal of the spread of this virus. tracing. tracing. contact tracing. that is critically important. i strongly support it. >> we're going to squeeze in a final break here. joe biden, stacey abrams, please stay with us. we're going to be right back right after this. you know what's good about this? your sign's pointing at my sign, so people are gonna look at my sign.

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we're back with more of your questions for vice president joe biden and stacey abrams. let's go to the next question. >> my name is jackie from stockton, california. i have a question for vice president biden. as an immigrant working as a nurse, we have provided the care for all without prejudice during the covid pandemic. how do you plan to change the immigration laws to accommodate specialized immigrants toward a fast-track immigration process to accommodate such crisis? >> by the way, number one, on day one, i'm sending, no matter what the state of this is, to the united states congress a bill to provide for a path to citizenship for 11 million

undocumented people. number one. in the united states. number two, every daca student will be able to stay. you realize there are 40,000 daca students out there providing the kind of help we're talking about right now in hospitals as nurses, aides, as firefighters, i mean, across the board? they're -- they're doing incredible things for us now. and the idea that we treat -- that the president has pitted us against one another based on our race, religion, national origin, we are a land of immigrants. that's what's made us who we are. that's what makes us so resilient. that's what makes us so special. and i promise you, it's a gigantic objective of mine to see to it that we make -- we have an immigration system that's consistent with our values and who we say we are and it does not now. donald trump is absolutely violating every basic value we have. >> what about fast tracking the

immigration process for physicians, nurses, other medical personnel? >> yes, yes, and yes. >> great. we need answers like that so we can get in more get in more qu. let's go to another question from one of our voters. >> hi, i'm glenda from ohio. as a democrat, it's just as important to win the senate as it is to win the white house. i want to know why stacey abrams wasn't willing to run for the senate in order to help the party, but is willing to accept the role of vice president. >> i appreciate the question. >> she's capable of doing any or both. >> we have to remember -- well, i would have to say this. we have to remember there are two things happening in 2020. we are not only running a presidential election but running the 2010 election as

well. we have to look at the white house and the senate and we have to look at down-ballot elections, especially with senators when the debacle happened when republicans gerrymandered our map beyond recognition. i'm fighting for a fair fight in the election and a fair fight in the census, to make sure every person is counted so republicans can can't weaponize the census against the people. i didn't run for the senate, because i don't believe all the jobs are interchangeable, and i am here to run for office and dot work and to make sure that we have free and fair elections across the country. dy that with a fair fight. that we have a census that will count every american. and every person in america through fair count. but also, to respond to how covid is ravaging the south. i live in a community and in a state where we have some of the highest infection rates and some of the lowest resilience because the resources we need, the infrastructure we need, has been broken. my interest is in making certain

that vice president joe biden becomes president biden, because we need someone who believes not only in thinking the right thoughts but doing the work, and this is a man of courage and competence, who helped lead us through a global crisis before and he can do it again. my interest is no matter what that i help make certain that joe biden is the next president of the united states and we win every election up and down the ballot so we can right-size our country and move our nation forward. >> our next question is from edward in ohio. and this is for vice president biden. >> sir, if you were to win the election, would you be willing to commit to not pulling the president forward, and giving donald trump a pardon under the pretense of healing the nation? in other words, are you willing to commit to the american ideal that no one is above the law? >> absolutely, yes.

i'm committed. >> and this is helping us get in all the more questions, so that's a commitment, mr. vice president, you're saying that wherever the investigative trail might lead, whether that is be an investigative trail pursued by the justice department, against trump official, trump associates, administration officials, whether those are congressional investigations, that's hands-off for you, you're not going to say, let's just let by-gones be by-gones. >> it's hands off completely. look, the attorney general of the united states is not the president's lawyer. the people's lawyer. and you remember when you were there with pat moynihan, we never saw anything like the prosecution of that office like we see it today. it is not something that the president is entitled to do, to direct either a prosecution, and/or decide to drop a case. and that is not the president's role, responsibility, and it's a dereliction of his duty, and a

dereliction of his duty as a -- you know, you have, what, 2000 was it, a former attorneys general and/or people who worked in the office said that the president, the attorney general should resign. what's going on is an absolute travesty, a travesty of justice, that will not happen, i guarantee you. >> the issue of people wanting the vice president, wanting the attorney general to resign is over the michael flynn case where the attorney general is basically trying to drop the case as a federal judge, questioning how that case is being dropped. mr. vice president, what was your involvement in the investigation of michael flynn and the fbi investigation of michael flynn? >> i was never a part, or had any knowledge, of any criminal investigation into flynn while i was in office, period. not one single time. >> let's get one more question in here, this is from a voter in

california. >> hi, vice president biden and ms. abrams, my name is victor, a 17-year-old, a senior in illinois, and just got elected to be a delegate to represent vice president joe biden at the dnc convention in august on behalf of the tenth congressional district. today my question is for stacey abrams. given that young people in high school don't often turn out to vote in elections, how do you ensure not only that high schoolers and college students are empowered in the political process but also turn out to vote at higher rates? >> well, i've been working on this since i was 17. i started registering students to vote on my college campus before i was old enough to vote. i was september as an international fellow to austria to represent the united states on the conversation of youth in engagement when i was 21, because i believe in the voice of young people. i know that young people change the world. and not long ago, i was one.

but what i know more than that, is that this cannot simply be an academic conversation. that's why my campaign in 2018, would he had young people at every level of our campaign and in our work that we're doing now, from the work we're doing in southwest georgia, helping to respond to covid-19, to the work of counting folks in the census, we're engaging young people, especially high school and college age students. your voices matter because this is a world you will inherent and a world you have to survive and we have to focus on climate change and criminal justice and have to make sure health care and economic justice are part of every single decision and that happens by speaking directly to you and more importantly engaging you and setting the policies themselves. i know joe biden believes in youth engagement because he ran for the senate at the age of 29 and he knows like i do that we can't win this election if we don't have everyone pulling in the same direction, especially your generation.

>> vice president joe biden, we have seen a whistle-blower testify in the rouse of representative, dr., house of representatives today, dr. rick bright, with his predictions of what was coming in the pandemic were ignored, suppressed and reports issued that the cdc has not been issued the warnings they want to be able to issue, drt has repeatedly said the sentence this week, i disagree with anthony fauci. in your administration, will the scientists, will the medical professionals be allowed to speak freely and allow them to speak to congress when the congress requests them? >> absolutely, positively, yes, yes, and yes again. really and truly. it is all about the science. this president is absolutely, well, i shouldn't say it, he does not, he does whatever is is in his interest, takes no responsibility, and we have the problem we have right now. and i hope, if i'm president,

that dr. fauci will stay on, in the administration. >> and that will be tonight's last word. joe biden gets the last word. stacey abrams, thank you very much for joining us, vice president joe biden, thank you for joining us, this has been a special last word. they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident, even if it's your fault. cut! sonny. was that good? line! the desert never lies. isn't that what i said? no you were talking about allstate and insurance. i just... when i... let's try again. everybody back to one. accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today. right now, there are over a million walmart associates doing their best to keep our nation going. because despite everything that's changed, one thing hasn't and that's our devotion to you and our communities.

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i'm joshua johnson good to be with you tonight from nbc news in new york. it is getting more and more likely that tomorrow will be your first day back at work since the coronavirus closures began. but the pandemic is far from over. by our count, the known death toll, from covid-19, just passed 90,000 people. nearly every state has partially reopened. this week, some states will ease restrictions further. tomorrow, minnesota will resume retail shopping with social distancing. in south florida, many businesses in miami-dade and broward counties will begin reopening. in west virginia, gyms will reopen. health off