while our nation grapples with the public health challenges and economic turmoil during a pandemic, the administration is charging ahead with its series of attacks on inspectors general. on friday, steve lenick became the fourth ig removed by the president or the president has sought to remove in a span of just six weeks. probably safe to say this president doesn't love the idea of people looking into things. and now senior officials tell nbc news what they believe what may have contributed to his firing. lenick was investigating secretary of state mike pompeo on two separate fronts. the first was looking into whether pompeo made a staffer perform personal errands, including making dinner reservations, walking the family dog. the second area, perhaps more

troubling, two congressional officials are telling nbc news that this now-ousted ig was also looking into pompeo's decision to greenlight billions of dollars in arm sales to skraib, despite opposition to that on capitol hill. >> joining our conversation is erin blake. he's a senior political reporter for "the washington post." erin blake, you had a great tweet last night, reminding everybody, because these do happen, usually on friday night, of all the igs the president has sought to remove, this appears to be the first one who was looking into both corruption, personal corruption, having a government official do personal errands is something you know when you make -- when you're at the bottom of the totem pole, as a 20-something staffer, you know that there is absolutely nothing you can do on the government dime that is personal or political in nature.

and the second, nothing short of illegal arm sales or non-congressionally approved arm sales to saudi arabia. tell us more. >> right, so i think the removal of steve lenick is arguably the most problematic of the removals that we've seen so far, in that he was investigating mike pompeo, at least to some extent. the other two that we're talking about, the other two big ones that we're talking about are michael atkinson, who was the inspector general of the intelligence community, and christi grimm, who issued a very severe report about the government's response to the coronavirus crisis, talking about, quote, severe shortages at hospitals. in both of those situations, atkinson and grimm, the president was asked about these decisions after he made them and he basically said that these were in response to what these people had done. in the case of atkinson, this was forwarding the whistle-blower complaint that eventually led to the

president's impeachment. in the case of lenick, it is -- you know, we haven't seen him necessarily offer such a direct reasoning, but it's not very difficult to draw conclusions based upon what he was looking at with pompeo, based upon a report that he issued a while ago when it came to state department leadership, harassing and intimidating employees. and then he also was involved, like atkinson in the impeachment drama, when he gave lawmakers an urgent briefing, talking about ukraine misinformation that had been forwarded to the state department from rudy giuliani. >> i remember that day in the sort of frenzied beginnings of the impeachment proceedings. i want to ask you about the inspector generals community more broadly. it's a different sort of subset of public servants who take these jobs. who else is in the president's good favor? i mean, michael horowitz, the dojig is there. and he testified for hours and hours about jim comey and andrew

mccabe's -- in his view, misdeeds or misconduct. you can see why the president hasn't targeted hymn, but is there anybody else who has done their job who's survived? >> i think these are the ones that may be if you look at it from the beginning of the situation, they would be the ones that you would most obviously think they were in the president's crosshairs. he was certainly very critical of that hhs report about hospital shortages, even before the removal of christi grimm. in the case of atkinson, he spent months decrying this whistleblower complaint as baseless. lenick was a little bit maybe more surprising. it was less of a case where there was something that involved trump personally, but clearly, this was something that involved the state department and involved secretary of state mike pompeo. and white house officials are

saying that this was something that mike pompeo requested, which i think, importantly, the state department is now disputing in some measure. whether the secretary was actually involved in this determination would seem to be a very big question here. and, you know, house democrats have shown a willingness to investigate this, but this would seem to be something that would be a focal point of that investigation. >> hey, aaron, nicole, who is a veteran of government service, just touched on something here. and i'm wondering if you can spend a minute talking about the ethos of the inspector general community. i've had a lot of government veterans say to me, look, nothing good -- if you're an employee, nothing good comes of this. you always fear hearing from the ig, but inspectors general, whether you are republican or democrat, represent integrity and rigor. they were made a thing in our government for a reason and as

far as they're concerned, they have one job. it's a little like internal affairs in a police department. they're never going to be voted most popular. >> right, and you mentioned how this kind of grew out of a very important thing, which was watergate. we had the first 12 inspectors general created after that point. there are now more than 70 in the government. they occupy a position that is, in some ways, similar to what you see from law enforcement, but is even more independent than that. at the same time, they are appointed by presidents, so there is an acknowledgement that a president has a certain amount of authority to remove and appoint them. but they are supposed to be independent. they're not supposed to be removed for political reasons. and so that's really what the -- you know, the -- you know, the tension here is between what the president is doing and what people think should be done with

an ig. i think what's important here and what's really illustrative is how a lot of these republican lawmakers approach the issue of igs back in the obama administration. we saw mark memeadows, who's no chief of staff, was a very big proponent of them. ron johnson, this weekend, basically dismissed lenick firing as not that big of a deal. chuck grassley has been very muted about this situation so far. but, you know, we are now six weeks into this process and it doesn't seem to be slowing down at all. >> and notably, mitt romney came out, was one of the most strident critics of this pattern, not just this firing, but this pattern of firing all the watchdogs. it's amazing how liberated one can be but a vote of conscience. aaron blake of "the washington post," thank you so much. it's great to see you, my friend. brian, this is the time and the

hour when you bid us farewell, until your subsequent shifts. what a way to start the week, though, with these sort of twin pillars of everything we've covered of donald trump. sort of making this thing that isn't political for any american, a pandemic, and how to inch out of our stay-at-home posture, and the continued sort of dismantling of any sort of check on executive branch power. it's always those two things with donald trump. >> absolutely. and thank you for raising the point that these usually happen on a friday evening for a reason. america kind of -- we're getting close to memorial day. people set out on their weekends with a little more intensity than usual. also, thank you for raising in conversation with aaron how much people have changed. i think it was aaron on twitter today who pointed out grassley's letter about the ig doesn't

mention any "or/else." and those like collins who you could use depend on for a predictable reaction to this, silent, crickets for the most part. everyone's troubled and concerned, but it has stayed right there for the time being. i digress. thank you for having me. >> no, it's an important point. thank you, brian. great to see you. up next, we told you last week about our colleague here at nbc news, dr. joseph fair. he is one of the experts we've turned to for months now during this pandemic. he came down with his own case of coronavirus. now he's home from the hospital, still recovering and he'll join us in just a moment. ♪ (vo) love. it's what we've always said makes subaru, subaru. and right now, love is more important than ever. in response to covid-19, subaru and our retailers are donating fifty million meals to feeding america, to help feed those who now need our help.

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woman: they were able to restore my good name. vo: visit reputationdefender.com or call 1-877-866-8555. last week, we told you about our colleague at nbc news, dr. joseph fair, he's an epidemiologist that we turn to regularly and really all the time to help us explain the coronavirus to all of you. despite his good health and his precautionary measures and all of his knowledge, dr. fair was hospitalized with his own suspected case of the virus, which he believes he contracted through his eyes on a crowded flight. today, we have some good news to report about dr. fair. he was released from the hospital yesterday and is now back home. joining us with his wealth of knowledge and now his firsthand, unfortunately, experience, virologist, epidemiologist, and nbc news science contributor, dr. joseph fair, how are you

feeling? >> lots better. i can take full breaths now, so that's a huge improvement. >> how did you know you had it and did you have anything in your brain that was like, oh, no, i can't get it. i'm the person that tells everybody on nbc and msnbc how to not get it. >> second answer, you know, second answer first is, i did not think that, just because i've had far too many colleagues die from diseases that we were working on. but, you know, the first answer is, i -- you know, there are no quote/unquote classic symptoms with covid-19. i think is what we're learning with it, but mine started with complete drop of appetite followed very closely by a complete lack of taste and smell and then a fever and you know, what we would call fairly moderate to severe february reconcile illness, just meaning muscle aches, pain, fever,

sweats, all of that. i had that for a good seven to nine days. but as we've been recommending, i was treating myself at home, just as you would with another severe cold or a flu and ait wa really only when my lungs became involved at the end and i noticed a very decreased capacity for, you know, intake of oxygen, and that went on for two to three days and by day three, you know, it really felt as if i was only getting around 25% of the oxygen i was trying to take in, despite very deep breaths. so at that point, i did have to call 911 and, you know, let them know that i was a suspect case and to show up appropriately and was admitted to the covid ward here in new orleans at one of the local hospitals. >> you are a doctor, so you know what it means. you have that vocabulary. your lungs became involved. you know what percentage was getting oxygen. what does it feel like to the rest of us to get to that point where we should no longer be at

home, but we should call 911? >> i think, you know, for me, it was definitely the lung part. everything else is what you would feel with a really kind of severe flu, i would say, at least it was in my case. i think every case is going to be different. for example, i had no cough. i did not cough the entire time that i was ill. only after my bronchial lavage was i actually coughing. so i think it comes down to your individual case. you are the best judge of how your body is feeling and if you feel like that really this is beyond something that you should be taking care of yourself. then i would not hesitate to call 911 or your physician and discuss it with them, just being sure to explain that you think that it might be covid, so that they show up appropriately. i think everyone is basically doing that anyway, now. but just to be certain that you're received appropriately

and that they are taking the appropriate precautions when they're coming to get you, if that happens to be the case. >> were you scared at that point? >> you know, i can say uniquely that the lack of ability to get oxygen does induce a panic attack. and so by the time that i was really getting that very, very low amount of air, it coincided with undergoing a panic attack about not being able to get air, and, you know, you read horror story sometimes about people clawing at their throat and things like that, just trying to get air. and i do understand that now. because it does make you feel like you're suffocating. so i had to be given a sedative

and they said i needed to be intubated and i literally begged them not to. i signed a waiver and asked to be treated with a mask, and if we could try that first, i would much prefer that as a patient, and i responded well to both sedation and an oxygen mask. and then over the days, my lung capacity has increased greatly. they monitor very heavily what's called your pulse oxygen level or how much oxygen is actually getting to your cells. so mine went from dramatically low to normal levels over about three days of treatment, with oxygen and i was downgraded from critical to non-critical in the covid ward. >> i am so very sorry that you've been through this. i'm, like our viewers, someone who knows you from your calm and your expertise. and it's so good to see you doing better and you're so

generous for sharing this process with all of us. i think you give a lot of comfort to all the people who have been through the same thing and keep getting better and keep resting. i saw your dogs on twitter. they look like good, good company. >> yeah. >> okay, thank you so much. >> there they are! look at them! you can heal the world with that face. yeah, enjoy them and please, take care of yourself. we look forward to having you back to help us and all of our viewers through this. >> thank you, nicole. when we come back, as world leaders gather virtually in the fight against coronavirus, donald trump is not taking part and china's filling the void left open by the lack of american leadership. that's next. i just love hitting the open road and telling people that liberty mutual customizes your insurance, so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need.

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held variety rnlly by its 194-member states. in midst of the coronavirus pandemic, one of to most consequential one ever. president trump, the most vocal critic of the organization is not criticizing, opening up an opportunity for chinese president who pledged $2 billion to help fight the virus. joining us is keir simmons, this was just described to me earlier this morning, not just abdication of leadership on the american part but really an aggressive move by china to fill the void, explain. >> reporter: well, that's right. we didn't know that president xi was actually going to speak at the assembly until the early hours of this morning. he was the first major world leader to speak at this gathering that's being described as perhaps the most important in the world health organization's history. he made that pledge of $2 billion. you can make bet, nicolle, china

gets the bang for its buck for that money. he talked about using it as a fund to support the fight against coronavirus but you can be sure that everyone will know that's chinese money and believe me, plenty of nations there today who would have loved to have seen america march on the stage singing springsteen's "born in the usa." instead what we got was the health and human services secretary coming on this afternoon and rehearsing the criticisms of the world health organization that we've heard from president trump. take a listen. >> we must be frank about one of the primary reasons this outbreak spun out of control -- there was a failure by this organization to obtain the information that the world needed and that failure cost many lives, at least one member

state made a mockery of their obligations with tremendous cost to the entire world. we saw that w.h.o. failed at its core mission of information-sharing and transparency when member states don't act in good faith. >> reporter: that mockery of transparency was a reference to china, president xi at the same time pushing back saying we've been fully open. the split screen was china putting out its president perhaps out of a sense of insecurity, perhaps out of a perhaps of confidence, the united states putting forward the hhs secretary. >> keir, what was the dynamic between leaders of italy and spain and china? do they share some of the distrust, or they sort of marching forward as joint warriors in the fight against the pandemic? >> reporter: well, look, a

number of countries call for leadership. the french leader for example, germany's angela merkel, you did hear that call. you have seen the australians and the europeans push for an international investigations. calling for an investigation into china's role in the early days. but that resolution has been watered down, so it doesn't refer to china specifically anymore. president xi was able to come on today and say, let's have an investigation, let's investigate everything. the leader of the world health organization agreeing with that. once again, america honestly not really getting what it wanted today. >> keir, i feel like this -- we never have enough time. i feel like there's a feeling of -- because it's so political in this country how much blame china should shoulder for the early reports that came out, how much the world health organization deserves its

disorienting to hear where all of this has been pushed out to us through a bipartisan lens. >> okay, all right. coming up, donald trump versus his own pandemic response team. "deadline: white house" next.

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it's 4:00 in the east. more than two months into a pandemic that has ground life to a devastating halt for millions of americans and caused more than 90,000 americans their lives. donald trump's response has resulted in a full retreat of american leadership on the world stage, and has reduced the american president to an internet troll. today, a new report in axios showing trump is leading toward a total funding cut to the world health organization at a precarious moment. as some of the most devastated countries begin to reopen and concerns over a second wave intensify all around the world. china wasting no time stepping into that void today. announcing a $2 billion pledge to fight the pandemic and calling on other nations to step up their contributions to the w.h.o., a move described by "the new york times," quote, likely to ratchet up pressure on mr. trump. mr. xi's speech delivering by

video conference sought to position china as a leader in the world health organization. trump's glaring absence on the global stage colliding with his very public spiral as he loses grip on the crisis at home. his rage over the last 24 hours directed at whistle-blowers, president obama and the media. and his administration appears to be forming a circular firing squad with his trade adviser publicly blaming president trump's cdc director in an interview yesterday. the washington post reports on trump's abdication of like this, once, in a pandemic, trump has inserted his ego squarely into the u.s. response while minimizing his own role, deferring critical decisions to others, undermining his credibility with confusion and misinformation and shirking responsibility in what some see a shrinking of the american presidency. for a short while this weekend,

that vacuum was filled by that the last president of the united states, barack obama. >> another hard truth, something that we all have to eventually accept once our childhood comes to an end, and all those adults that used to think were in charge and knew what they were doing, turns out they don't have all the answers. a lot of them aren't even asking the right questions. do what feels good, what's convenient, what's easy, a that's how little kids think. unfortunately a so-called grownups still think that way. which is why things are so screwed up. i hope that instead you decide to ground yourself in values that last -- like, honesty, hard work, responsibility, fairness, generosity, respect for others. >> obama's straight talk follows a crush of reporting from multiple news organizations that

depict a president in the throws of what the final times describes as, quote, meltdown. from their piece, quote, again and again the story that emerged is of a president who ignored increasingly urgent intelligence warnings from january, dismisses anyone who claims to know more than him and trusts no one outside a tiny coterie led by his daughter. and her husband, jared kushner. trump's claim to global leadership leaps out, history will mark covid-19 as the first time that ceased to be true. trump versus his own pandemic response team is where we start today. dr. vin gupta, a public health physician, with us from the washington post, white house bureau chief, phil rucker and former democratic senator claire

mccaskill. phil rucker, your piece took my breath away. take us through what you report zbld nicolle, that's how a lot of observes of american presidency put it. i interviewed doris kearns goodwin who said, look after the great depression, during world war ii, president roosevelt sought leadership, he assumed greater responsibility because he knew that americans yearned for direction, for leadership, from their president and the opposite is happening here, you have a president in donald trump who's focused on the public relations aspect of this pandemic response, focused on what his image is going to look like and what it means for him politically who's deferring a lot of the key decisions the governors, deciding how and when to reopen their states. the business leaders have to grapple on what to do about their employeesened their

businesses and how to propel things going forward. the scientists coming up with the vaccine. the president is playing cheerleader and commentator. >> dr. gupta, take us through and i guess you to put on your global health policy hat and take us through what it's like to see america and some of the actors are the same, dr. fauci was at the forefront of the world fight against aids. dr. fauci at the forefront of the world fight against ebola. he was at the forefront of the world's preparation for the avian flus and those stransz. now under donald trump, america really exit iing in a pretty profound and public and obvious and undeniable way. >> i don't know how we have a pandemic strategy without engaging with the w.h.o., without having a strong cdc, nicolle, it's impossible to have

a comprehensive preparedness and response strategy without communicating, without funding the organization, despite its flaws, without funding an organization, the w.h.o., that needs our help and so the policy itself makes no sense. what's even more demoralizing someone like peter navarro, based op his bio, has never cared for a patient, doesn't understand what covid-19 is, basically taking aim at doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists by saying that we are crying wolf, essentially, by blaming the cdc by obviously castigating the w.h.o., it's irresponsible, he'll have blood on his hands by saying us in the medical community are making too big of a deal on covid-19 and the effects of social distancing are going to kill more americans, it's not rooted in fact. it's the type of comment that gives air cover for people to

act ridiculous. thinking that governors and public health leaders don't have their best interests in mind. navarro is giving them cover, they're dangerous. >> we had those comments. let's play them for you. here they are. >> early on in this crisis, the cdc, which really had the most trusted brand around the world, in this space, really let the country down with the testing because not only did they keep the testing within the bureaucracy, they did have a bad test that set us back. >> dr. gupta, talk about how counterproductive that is, the cdc is part of the executive branch of the government, to see another person and this is really an ideological soul mate, come out and take aim at the cdc

is stunning. >> i mean, it's beyond demoralizing and navarro's full comments, again, he was blaming the medical community at large, scapegoating the likes of which i have never seen before. and who is he to do that? who is peter thnavarro to make these comments? he has no public health background. it's the cdc that should be doing it. it should be the public health leaders. the fact that he said is, is their anemic response that dr. bright let out last week, it was the administration's lagging response on this. by the way, the w.h.o.'s technical guidance on testing we should have followed and do what south korea did, if we did, we may have followed their trajectory. that did pretty good. they listened and had the h

humility to follow guidance from the w.h.o. >> so claire, we know trump doesn't listen to cdc and the w.h.o. but it sounds like he's taking pandemic advice from his son. here's eric trump. >> the democrats are trying to milk this for everything they can and it's sad. they think they're taking away donald trump's greatest tool which is being able to go into a arena and fill it with 50,000 people every single time. they'll milk every single time between now and november 3rd. guess what, after november 3rd coronavirus will magically go away and disappear. they're trying to deprive him of his greatest asset. >> so claire, let's see if we can follow the thread, all about what motivates the president of the united states. the democrats want to deprive

donald trump of his maga rallies and so, what's the thing? that coronavirus is here now but gone in november? how does that make sense? >> yeah, what an idiot? i mean, this guy is trying to say out loud on a national cable news outlet, that the democrats somehow created this pretend virus that now close to 100,000 americans have died from and the democrats did this to keep his dad from having rallies and by the way, you know, as i pointed out over the weekend, you know, fox news continually allow people on their air waves to say ridiculous things like this while all of them are broadcasting from home.

this is like nutso. and you know, over the weekend when i sauna var owe -- first of all, i saw trump junior do that on saturday night. my head exploded. then navarro clearly was green lighted by the white house to go after the cdc and then, azar comes on and tried to defend the cdc. what you have at a moment of crisis, you have a desperate need for everyone to work together. especially all of those people who have responsibility. so the notion that the white house green lighted navarro to go on a sunday show and try to take down both hhs and the cdc in the middle of a health pandemic that's killing americans, it's stunning incompetence and you just wonder, who's strategizing this? who thinks this is a good idea? >> i mean, claire, do you really wonder that?

donald trump sits there with the clicker in his pajamas and his iphone. who strategizes anything in. >> i think, you know, i think he's so ill-equipped and i'm being kind here for this job. he doesn't understand that how well he leads the people who work for him matter. i mean, that matters how he leads them. he think it's okay to let them all fight with each other, he thinks that's somehow shows who's strong or who's not. i mean the cdc is donald trump -- >> claire. >> it's his. it's his. he owns the cdc. the guy who runs it is his appointee. who, by the way, couldn't get the job under bush. >> claire, you just hit the nail on the proverbial head here. he's not going to be judged in

november on how many of his own executive branch officials he had fired and smeared on fox and friends. he's going to be judged on how well he took control and helmed the cdc when the test was not up to par. and redirected hhs when it first it wasn't doing everything it needed to do and took control of the w.h.o. and demanded more transparency from china and got on the phone with the european leaders -- he's not going to be judged on how well he acted like he was still a buff phone on reality tv show, this is his team. he will sink or die politically based on how well he runs the pandemic response team. do you think anyone has excomplained to him, claire. >> i don't think he gets that part. when peter navarro goes on tv and criticizes the cdc, you

know, the cdc is trump. hhs is trump. azar is trump. you know, seema verma is trump. they're all trump. the cdc was working at the w.h.o. during the period in question, they had dozens of people embedded in the w.h.o. so why weren't they exploiting the lies. people are dying. >> yeah, yeah. phil rucker, take me inside why obama's comments -- i mean, i think we can all guess, but the president has been on a two-week-long delusional tirade, what's the definition of this word that he utters that i'm not going to repeat here that means nothing and then obama went out and delivered some of the

straightest talk of his post-presidency about how badly botched the government is, about how government's leaders right now are acting like children and the president came out and managed to find a camera and respond. >> yeah, nicolle, part of what's going on here is trump and his campaign advisers now realizing they're going to be facing joe biden as the democratic nominee in the general election and one of the best assets that biden has is barack obama. as a campaign surrogate. president obama is the most popular figure nationally in american politics from either party by far. he has an incredible ability to transcend sort of the news cycle that we're in and communicate with people. he has a larger twitter following than president trump. the trump team realize that obama is going to be a prominent surrogate. they're trying to take him down a few notches.

that's why we see this continued assault from the president on president obama and trying to alleged a scandal where the evidence isn't there. and continue with that and you know, that's why we saw the president react the way he did to obama's twin commencement addresses that aired on national television on saturday. it was pretty clear who president obama was talking about, leaders with big fancy titles who act like children. >> well, i think the idea -- i'm happy that mitch mcconnell's futile efforts to suggest any former president shut their mouth resulted in president obama coming out and saying something that the country was eager to hear, that he sees what we see that the country's leaders, some of them, the president and his advisers are acting like children at best. i'm not sure that's fair to children. phil rucker, dr. vin gupta, claire mccassill, thank you.

when we come back -- the cdc under fire from within the trump administration. we'll talk to former head of that agency about the unprecedented attacks on the top disease agency, as well as the science and politics behind reopening. and friday night massacre, president trump's regular friday night massacre and attorney general barr won't be investigating president obama and vice president biden after all. keswoman] meet the ninja foodi grill. get the perfectly grilled flavors of an outdoor grill indoors, and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do even more, like transform into an air fryer. the ninja foodi grill, the grill that sears, sizzles, and air fry crisps. confident financial plans, calming financial plans,

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as tension between the white house and the cdc escalates the

medical community is stepping up to defend the agency, this is from the lancet, quote, there's no doubt that the cdc has made mistakes especially on testing in the early stages of the pandemic, but punishing the agency before marginalizing and hobbling it, is not the solution. the administration is obsessed with magic bullets, vaccines, new medicines or hopes that the virus will disappear, only reliance on basic health principles, like test, trace and isolate will see the emergency brought to an end, this requires an effective public health agency. let's bring in former cdc director, dr. thomas if, ri -- frieden. first of all, it seems like the president is trying to put the cdc outside the inner circle when the cdc is probably best

situated to help him solve the problem of saving american lives from coronavirus. >> you're right, nicolle. fundamentally f we look around the world and around the u.s. at different states the places that are doing best are being guided by public health and this is a public health crisis and public health is best situated to lead us forward. that doesn't mean compromising either science or the economy. the smarter and the sooner we start the better our economy and the better our response to this virus, it does mean scaling up tried and true public health interventions, such as contact tracing, that's going to require an enormous effort and p participation by the public. >> i have a million public health questions that i want to get to because i think that's what most people are trying to figure out, how do i navigate returning to some of my normal

practices. i just want to understand -- public health-driven decisions are the hallmark of the ebola response and other pandemics, can public health-driven policy co-exist with donald trump's desire to shape his own press and his ego. >> look at the cdc website. it's still the best place to go for information advice and recommendations on how to protect yourself, your family, your business, community, americans are voting with their clicks. the cdc website has had over 2.1 billion clicks. now that can be difficult in the environment that they're in, i wish we were hearing from the cdc more. i'd feel safer and better informed if we were hearing from the cdc regularly, these are the world's leading experts on fighting viral respiratory diseases. >> are you in contact with the

cdc's leaders? telling them you got their back or to hang in there, what is sort of behind the scenes line of communications? >> i think we all have to recognize that cdc remains a great public health institution, it has 20,000 women and men who are work day and night to protect americans. they've dedicated their lives to figuring out what can be done to keep us safe and healthy, they're still doing that work, they've got 5,000 people or more working on the response to coronavirus. they're working in virtually every state in the u.s. and as the weeks and months proceed i think we'll recognize the more we can listen to, learn from and contribute to the cdc's response, the safer and the more productive our society will be. >> and i want to get back to your earlier point about how we

don't have to choose between our economy and our health. at a granular level, are we taking the right lessons? i asked the mayor of atlanta if her state's reopen, the earliest reopening f they were contact tracing new infections from the date of the reopening to now to understand if any of those sort of practices of getting a tattoo or having your hair done led to any new infections? should we be on doing a better job to understand which choices are good one and which ones should be a second or third phase? >> we have to understand the lag here, from the time people reduce physical distance, get closer together, to the time there's new infections, new illnesses, can be a month or several months. that's why later this week, resolve to save lives we're going release framework in terms of alert levels, objective,

transparent level, to understand what works to keep us safe. realistically, we're not going back to normal, we're going to a new normal, people are being more careful, they're shaking hands less, being more distant. washing hands more. we hope particularly, if you're indoors, particularly if you're within six feet of someone, in a place where the virus is spreading, if everyone wears a face mask everyone will be safer. >> what do you say to people who are still skeptical of the face makes, in some places there is, you know, very high compliance, you drive around new york city and almost everyone has on a face mask, but you hear anecdotely other places, sometimes it's driven by people's political partisanship.

what do you say to bring along the detack or thes? >> this is crucialty of not having heard from scientists every day and i'll be honest, the first time i saw someone wearing a face mask here in brooklyn, i thought it was nuts. then we becagan looking at the science, you can spew that virus out when you're just talking and you're not aware of it. third, a lot of people have the infection and don't know it. so you put those things together and you put together the evidence, face masks actually can help if everyone wears them, they're not perfect but we don't have a perfect tool to fight this virus yet. we don't have a perfect weapon, if everyone wears them when we're close together, everyone will be safer. >> you're in brooklyn. i call new york city my home and i was very interested in your description of new york city being at the end of the beginning, what does that mean and can you take us through what

that means for the kind of reopenings the city can expect? >> lots to unpack there. first off, new york city really went through hell here, we're talking about tens of thousands of deaths, more than 20,000 deaths in new york city, that's -- and if you add the deaths that not yet known, it's more than 50% increase in the annual death rate, so just terrible impact on the city, and as we begin to come out, we have to do that carefully, there are certain things that are going to be harder to start. we have to figure out what to do about subways, we have to have a community discussions about school. not going to school also has health harms. nicolle, we have to think about the future. this isn't just about covid. this is about how we respond to

pandemics and how we keep safe. one of the things that was extraordinarily difficult when i was at cdc, even though both parties agreed, getting stable resources for the cdc, to protect the american people, that means a new way of working on the budget. we suggested that the week before that in congress. bipartisan group supports this. this is health operation budget, what's needed to keep people safe? then congress can make a decision on what to allocate and not to fight how much safety versus other wonderful programs, that's the way the military works and that's the way our health defense should work. >> i'm going to ask you about some breaking news and i'm sorry to do this to you, too, so donald trump just announced at a public event that he himself is taking hydroxychloroquine.

it's not clear why. he said that he's been taking hydroxychloroquine for a couple of weeks. that would put it back to a point in time where he was still publicly touting the drug and saying things, what do you to lose? he's also announced repeatedly he's taking negatively for covid. he's stated publicly that he's not tested positive for covid but he just said today that he's taking hydroxychloroquine. why might that be? >> there's been a theory that hydroxychloroquine could be effective prevempbt serious illness from covid. we're not sure. we don't have definitive information yet. fundamentally we need to know what works. to do that we need science and studies and once we know what

works we need to scale it up and make sure everybody can get it. that's in our best interest. >> the fda has warned against taking hydroxychloroquine outside of a hospital setting, do you have any concerns about the leader of our country taking hydroxychloroquine? >> depends on the dose, frankly, at a high dose it can cause some irregular heart rhythms that can serious or fatal. it's relatively safe in malaria. >> we help it works out. thank you so much for being out there in the public sphere. i know from working at government you're not always at a liberty to speak for yourself. dr. frieden, thank you for spending time with us. after the break, it's not that hard to spot a pattern, donald trump's slow moving

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continuing with its regulatory purge of the inspector generals, the trump administration removed the state department watchdog, steve linick, the fourth inspector general fired or removed from his/her post during the pandemic. nbc news and others looking that linick was looking at allegations that secretary of state pompeo had a personal staffer run errands for him. not only the reason he may have lost his job. as elliott engelle said in a statement, linick's office was investigating at my request trump's phony declaration at an e emergency so he could send weapons to saudi arabia.

engel along with senator menendez launched an investigation into linick's ouster over the weekend. calling into question exactly what he was trying to do. joining our conversation former chief of staff for the cia and department of defense, jeremy bash and john heilemann. the breaking news donald trump is taking hydroxychloroquine, a drug his own fda cautioned against taking outside the hospital but let me start with another friday night massacre and i said earlier in the show, jeremy bash, one used to get impeached. >> nicolle, first of all, when someone makes a personnel move on friday night it's red flag the size the state of kansas

they don't want this publicly discussed, so this automatically triggered an investigation by the democratic chairman of the house foreign affairs committee and the democratic senior ra ranking member on the senate foreign relations committee and i would say having served as a chief of staff to cabinet secretary, when you fire an inspector general who's a senate-confirmed professional, these inspector generals are honest and trustworthy and have high integrity, when you fire one of them, it either means the inspector general screwed up or the cabinet secretary screwed up. there's no third option. we have to understand exactly what's claimed with respect to mr. linick, if he was investigating the secretary this looks like classic retribution, senators like grassley and others, should not stand for. >> you know, john heilemann, it seems like a million years ago,

only three months ago, secretary pompeo was talked about as potentially having some legal exposure around the impeachment scandal that he was on the call. the inspector general at the state department turned over wi musings about the investigations they wanted zelenski to do. personal corruption, having one go to dry cleaner and walk your dog, a stuff 22-year-old white house staffer, the very beginning of her career knows is a no-no, to mix any government money, any taxpayer with anything personal. and then the very serious suggestion or question that he was investigating noncongressionally approved arms

sale to saudi arabia. >> all of them. i think, you know, nicolle, this notion that you got bob menendez asking questions, that secretary of state likes to travel his wife on the government dime, to foreign countries and has responded to previous questions to that she's a force multiplier, my wife is also a force multipliers, also are my dogs, if i took them on business trips, my employer would say that's not appropriate. so, there's a lot that's highy about this. jeremy is a bit more cautious than i'm inclined to be, there are obviously details of this particular firing that one wants to get into, when you look at the pattern that's playing out here, you look at not just the

fact that there have been multiple igs, the president december danes in principle, and he fires them under the cover of friday night news dumps with regularity. a thing that's beyond just this one simple case, but a pattern that the president seems to going through in the middle of this pandemic taking opportunity to remove oversight from his appointees in departments that he wants them to get away with whatever they want get away with. >> the ig at the intelligence community, at the heart of the impeachment scandal but he wasn't an obama holdover, he was a trump apointee, this is sort of the worst combination punishing one's only political

appointees. inspectors general uncover ethical conduct. >> nicolle, who are these inspectors general? their job after having been confirmed by senate is to use large nonpartisan efforts, people who can look across a sprawling government agency and figure out how taxpayer money is being misused. i personally just from these facts don't believe that secretary would fire an inspector general over an investigation about dog walking or laundry, that doesn't add up to me. probably some aspect of what mr. linick was looking at that we don't know. even the matter of saudi arms sales, very controversial at the time.

congress spoke out, very loudly against the executive branch's invocation of an emergency waiver. but for the inspector general to look at this implied some inappropriate behavior. i think you're right, nicolle, this is a pattern, michael atkinson at the intelligence community. christi grimes at hhs for speaking out about coronavirus issues. and glenn fine, a prominent congressionally tefgs whistle-blow whistle-blower, over seeing the coronavirus $2 trillion package. all of these people have been pushed aside. there's something going on here. >> something john heilemann is not something that have sought to hide. there has been reporting of the purge plan. the president brought in someone who was still in college to help carry out a list of retribution

list that was assembled in part by the wife of a sitting supreme court justice. this is the stated plan as reported and not denied. >> right, exactly. you know, this goes to something that's very deep, nicolle, a thing we discovered over the course in vivid and kind of terrifying ways that the president does not really have any basic conception or any respect for the notion that there are any institutional restraints on him. jeremy went through the letter, the black letter law of what they're supposed to do. the reality is, prevent abuse, to prevent corruption and to keep a check on an executive branch with its political appointees could engage -- the president over and over again has said that he thinks he's the government. it makes perfect sense that he

would take issue with particular igs but the idea of igs in general. you see his consternation every time he talks about this, predictable but totally, totally terrifying when you see the successive sloi moving friday night massacres to root out any checks and balances against his power. >> it's great point. if he thought it was -- obviously, he think it's fine enough to do it. john and jeremy are staying around to talk about the breaking news, what donald trump is taking, hydroxychloroquine, that's next.

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taking hhydroxychloroquine. john, first of all, i mean, do we know, i'm not sure that means if he's taking it. he told the world to take it. t? cavuto on fox news, my neighbor at the same hour, said to a medical guest he had, what do you have to lose is your life. i'm not sure wek take it to the bank. he's told 18,000 lies and counting. why did he say that at all? >> there's a high probability because the president is a pathological liar but he's not a cleat idiot in a sense of what he's heard about the dangers of taking this drug. there's a high probability he's not taking the drug. i think you would need to have some real evidence to suggest this is not just another tall

tale of his. i think the reality is he's been so thoroughly rebuked on his advocacy of this drug that it stands on some level to reason that he would want people to think, having told everyone else to take it, that he himself is taking it even though he's not, in fact, taking it. again, i have no evidence for that sup pigpositiosupposition, asking us to take on faith he's taking it and b it's dangerous, he's not taking it but saying he is. >> look, the fda has warned that this drug could be lethal if taken outside of the hospital. i for one, jeremy, hope he's not taking it. if we go to the patterns, the patterns of what we learn about trump and his health are not truthful. he had the doctor, i believe dr. bornstein, who described him as, you know, the most vibrant, healthy specimen he'd ever seen. then he had dr. ronny cooper, who now has co-signed onto some of the fantastical conspiracies of the trump era. there's not a history of getting

great medical information about this president, jeremy. >> yeah. he also has a 34-inch waist and grew 3 inches last year. everything he says about his medical condition you have to take with a ten-pound bag of salt. again, this is the president who prescribed injections of disinfectants, clorox and lysol, and set off a national panic and tens of thousands of calls into poison control centers. that's the kind of stuff kids can get their hands on. this is truly dangerous and we're going to take his advice about prophylactic hydroxychlorine? i don't think so.oquine? i don't think so. >> i'm glad you mentioned the bleach injection. i have been watching sarah cooper of the lip sync when he told everybody to put the light in the body over and over again. it is the soundtrack of my quarantine. i recommend it to anyone who needs a giggle today. jeremy, john, two of my favorite

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