concerned, he's our president. i would rather he not be taking something that has not been approved by the scientists, especially in his age group and in his, shall we say, weight group, what is morbidly obese, they say. so i think it is not a good idea. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, may 19th. i don't know where to begin with yesterday. often, the president will say things to distract and, obviously, we're passing a 90,000 threshold of dead americans. you have many saying that, actually, it's far more than that. you have a lot of scientists and doctors and nurses saying that, from everything they've seen, it's far more than that. sometimes, i talk about bright,

shiny objects that the president tries to get us to follow. talk about separating the csignl from the ground noise. this certainly was thrown out as a distraction, because the president always wants to distract from his failures. certainly, probably now wants to distract from the fact that the secretary of state was being investigated, that the president was being investigated for saudi arm sales, so they fired the investigator. that's, of course, what the senate is now doing. they're investigating the investigators. they've been caught time and time again. but when the president of the united states actually says he's doing something which, let me assure you, he is not doing -- let me assure you, the president of the united states is not taking hydroxychloroquine. in all the time that i knew him,

i only sat for one meal with him. before that meal, he had wipes like this high and would go through the wipes, compulsively, and wipe his hands, sanitize his hands before eating anything. so he is not taking something that his own administration has said will kill you. that his own fda said will kill you. that the va said will kill you. fox news said -- and i say this to seniors who i'm so soworried about, and we're all worried about you, because the president has been acting so reckless over the past several months -- listen, it will kill you. this will kill you, fox news

said. that's what doctors will say, too. the fda said, take it if you're in the hospital. take it if you're in a closely watched, clinical trial. don't take it unless you're under those two circumstances. so the president is not taking it and, yet, yet, he's telling americans that they should take it. it takes his responsibility to a whole new level, willie. i've got to say, this is a man who, from the very beginning of his administration, has acted like he doesn't want to be re-elected. i'm dead serious about that. he does things every day that only cause more problems for himself. yesterday, of course -- we're going to be showing polls in

florida. we're going to be showing how he is losing seniors. here's another great example. what are seniors going to do? are they going to start popping hydroxychloroquine? doctors will say, "don't do it." especially if you're like donald trump and you have all these challenges. i mean, he's old. he is overweight. he certainly does -- he is at least -- would fit into the obese category. those are real risks for having a very bad reaction to covid-19. so i'm just worried this morning, there are some people who may have seen that yesterday and think that maybe they need to do it. my message today is, don't do it, first of all. secondly, know that the president of the united states, an extraordinarily selfish man, not doing something that the trump administration said will kill you. >> yeah. we're going to talk to a series

of doctors this morning to make that very clear. dr. gupta, who is treating covid-19 patients and has been for the last couple months, will tell us about the dangers of hydroxychloroquine. as you pointed out, the fda, the fda itself, on april 24th, less than a month ago, issued a warning about hydroxychloroquine causing heart abnormalities in certain coronavirus patients. as you say, there's a lot of skepticism about whether the president is actually taking hiydroxychloroquine or whether e is changing the subject, perhaps tropic trolling a bit, but we'll talk to doctors in a minute. president trump said he's been taking a daily dose of hydroxychloroquine for about a week and a half. the president previously touted the anti-malaria drug as a treatment for the coronavirus, despite studies questioning its effectiveness at treating the virus and laying out its dangers. including a study from his own va that actually found an increase in mortality with those who took the drug with covid-19,

and a warning from his own fda about potentially deadly side effects. president trump told reporters yesterday, he does not believe he's been exposed to the virus, but he decided to take the drug after consulting with the white house physician. >> did the white house doctor recommend that you take that? >> yeah, white house doctor -- no, i asked him. he said, "if you'd like it." a lot of front line workers are taking hydroxychloroquine. i don't take it because -- hey, people said, "maybe he owns the company." i don't own the company. you know what? i want the people of this nation to feel good. waiting to see your eyes light up when i said this, you know, when i announced this. yeah, i've taken it about a week and a half now, and i'm still here. i'm still here. >> can you explain, sir, though, what is the evidence that it has a preventative effect? >> here we go. you ready? here's my evidence. i get a lot of positive calls

about it. i get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy. you know the expression i use, john, what do you have to use? i've been taking it a week and a half. >> every day? >> every day. i take a pill every day. at some point, i'll stop. what i'd like to do, i'd like to have the cure and/or the evacuati vaccine, and that'll happen, i think, soon. >> the white house scrambling behind something the president said. the white house physician, sean son lee, relea connelly, released a statement. after numerous discussions he and i hadhydroxychloroquine, we concluded the potential benefit from treatment outweighed the relative risks. the president is in good health and remains symptom free. president trump started taking the drug after his valet tested

positive for coronavirus earlier this month. white house aides were caught off guard by president trump's decision to publicly disclose that he's been taking the drug. the white house official said only a small group of aides knew the president was taking it. joe, there was a big tell in the president's rambling speech about whether he was taking it, when he said, "i've been waiting for your eyes to light up," looking at members of the press. in other words, i knew this was going to be provocative and upset a lot of people, and here it is. >> the president says, what do you have to lose? well, your life. >> yup. >> you could die from it. it's not just fox news telling you that. that's also donald trump's fda, donald trump's va, the donald trump administration who said, "please don't do this. it could kill you." the va study showed that it increased the likelihood of people dying if they were taking

it. so, again, the question is, why did the president do it? you know, i think, of course, it was to distract, but at the same time, people that are listening, when he asks the question, "what do you have to lose," the trump administration says, "your life." >> let's talk more about this with msnbc contributor mike barnicle. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "kasie d.c." on msnbc, kasie hunt. first, dr. vin gupta. good morning. thank you for taking a moment away from the work you've been doing. you've been treating covid-19 patients on the west coast for some time right now. just, first, let me ask you about the president's assertion, his claim that he is taking h h hydroxychloroquine preventatively. we talked about the dangers of using it for treatment. the fda has, the va has, and

other studies have shown the dangers. have you heard of anyone taking it preventatively? >> willie, thanks for having me. i'm actually in an icu right now with tenneco v covid patients f away from me. i asked the nurses and fellow docs, an informal poll of 30 on the front lines, and no one is doing it. let's be clear, this is not an approved or even thought to be likely approved prophylactic drug for prevention of covid-19. there is no data. none. for the president to go out there and trumpet that he's been taking it for ten days is essentially the same as him suggesting people wear a mask but not doing it himself. or suggesting other interventions like disinfectants

that are horrifying all of us. this is a subtle way to continue his disinformation campaign, and it is really irresponsible. it angers all of us who are caring for patients. people listen to the president. when he said this in march, to take hydroxychloroquine, what do you have to lose, prescriptions went up 46 times across the country. there is a segment of america that listens to what he says, and he needs to be responsible with that and not take it for granted. >> doctor, from what you know about the disease, we talked about the va study and heard the warnings from the fda, what are the dangers of taking hydroxychloroquine for covid-19? >> willie, there is a litany of side effects, but the most concerning is that it can cause a fatal cardiac arrhythmia. it can cause the heart to go really fast. it is a side effect that's common with certain types of drugs that really rewire the

electrical conduction system of the heart, to put it as simply as i can. that can cause people to die. a study out of france, actually, eight individuals in 80 that received hydroxychloroquine in a study, all with covid-19 -- so 80 received it and 80 did, 10% of the individuals that did had these detrimental cardiac abnormalities. they had to be stopped and removed from the drug trial. oh, by the way, there was no benefit to receiving the drug in the first place. so he is making light of something that is very serious. it is impossible to predict who is at risk and who is not at risk for this fatal, potentially fatal, cardiac abnormality. certainly though, somebody like the president, who is, as you said, rules in for obesitobesit loves hamburgers and fast food, this is not the type of individual, us americans, regardless of political leanings or feelings toward him, we shouldn't want him to take

something that could harm him. he is the president of the united states. we should all want him to stay healthy. it is inappropriate. i don't know what his white house physician is doing, dr. conley. dr. conley, the surgeon general, anybody in his public circle that is a public health exper, x or purports to be, is to do what we all do in the profession, do no harm. that is not what dr. conley is doing. he should put his medical license above whatever personal agenda he and the president has. >> it is unfortunate. ronny jackson, respected in the obama administration, just embarrassing himself now every day out on the campaign trail, just like he embarrassed himself with his physical of donald trump. everybody knew he was lying then. mike barnicle, i'm sorry, but i have got to believe that donald trump is lying right now about taking this drug that his own

administration said actually can kill you, doesn't give you the positive effects and, in fact, can cause situations, especially in people that are older like him and obese like him, and can cause real health damage to those type of people. it is bad for donald trump, but more to the point, because i don't believe donald trump is taking this, it sends a really dangerous message to people who follow him and follow him blindly. it could be -- like, listening to donald trump yesterday will be hazardous to americans' health. >> yeah, joe. to your point, you know, dr. gupta's initial statement, his initial response to willie's initial question, that could serve as a public service announcement. we don't know whether the president just said this to further distort and divide the debate over what's going on with

the virus. dr. gupta, you mentioned a 46% -- or 46 times tick up in prescriptions for hydroxychloroquine. what would you do, going to a doctor, to ask for a prescription? >> mike, you cut out there. but if i heard you correctly, so what would happen if you went to a doctor and asked for a prescription of hydroxychloroquine. no doctor of any repute would prescribe hydroxychloroquine for prophylactic or treatment of covid-19. case closed. >> all right. kasie hunt has a question. >> yeah. i mean, dr. gupta, what should americans -- i mean, i think a big part of the concern here, too, is that people are misinterpreting potentially what the president is saying. obviously, everybody wants to,

you know -- people are afraid. they want a solution to this. i mean, we all do. what exactly should they be taking away from the president, when he kind of throws this out there? how -- just what is your very direct message to the people who hear this and say, "well, if the president is doing it, i'm going to do it, too," just to kind of underscore the point? >> i would say that it is pretty clear now that the president and his top surrogates, peter navarro, who made some pretty reprehensible comments over the weekend, vice president pence, and senator rand paul, have all been guilty of irresponsible behavior that suggests they don't have americans' best interest in mind when it comes to their health. whether it's masks, whether it is disinfectants, and now hydroxychloroquine, sort of weirdly the hill that all these gop congressmen wanted to die on

during the dr. bright testimony. you probably remember, kasie, they kept going back to hydroxychloroquine. we were in a different topic and talking aboutsuddenly. it's odd. it shows there is a coordinated effort in the gop, for whatever reason, to focus on this messaging. this drug that has no proven benefit and is actually harmful to people. what is the conclusion? the conclusion is they're trying to go against evidence and science. navarro essentially said medical doctors like myself and others are crying wolf and overreacting to covid-19. the reaction and social distancing is going to cause more deaths than the virus itself. so my message to americans is they do not have your best interest at heart. they're trying to win an election. that's the reality here. they're trying to do it through

disinformation. >> dr. vin gupta, who stepped off the floor of his icu into an office to talk to us on an important morning, we're grateful. thank you so much. always great to see you. joe, we mentioned dr. conley. if you read his letter, it is brief, 114 words, he never actually says that he prescribed the drug to the president, nor does he actually say explicitly anyway that the president is taking the drug. i don't know if he is doing that to protect himself. this guy is not a quack. served in the navy. he was a doctor in afghanistan, ran a trauma unit there. >> right. >> if you read the letter closely, he doesn't actually say he prescribed it. he just said that they agreed, he and the president, that the potential benefit outweighs the relative risks, is the way he put it. >> yeah. said he didn't prescribe it. again, we're six months away from an election about, i guess. we've seen what's happened to ronny jackson, a guy what was respected by all sides.

he went in and then lied about the president's health time and time again, lied about his weight, said he could live to be 200 years old if he didn't eat badly. now, he's a political hack running for office, sayi ining very sad things for a doctor to be saying. you have to believe this white house physician understands that the trump white house is going to end. when it ends, he's got to keep his reputation. he's got to keep his medical license. the food and drug administration has said, "do not take this outside of the hospital. do not take this outside of clinical trials." you have the va saying, "we did a study on this. it wasn't a huge study, but we did a study on this. it increased the likelihood of death." any doctor prescribing that for political purposes, i've got to

say, puts himself or herself in a very difficult position. so i just don't believe the president is taking something that his own administration says will kill him. anyway, let's bring in right now nbc's -- from the white house, nbc correspondent carol lee. carol, we just heard the doctor talk about how americans no s no understand donald trump is running for re-election, so don't listen to this very bad medical advice coming from him and others around him. the strange thing is, his poll numbers keep slipping with seniors. his poll numbers keep slipping in florida. there was a poll out on friday, that he is down 6 points in the state of florida, in large part because of seniors. that comes from this quack medical advice that he keeps pushing. right now, let's just look at

the trump agencies that donald trump is at war with. the fda on hydroxychloroquine. the va said they don't like him at the va. that has to be news to a lot of people. this weekend, he sent navarro out to attack the department of health and human services. sent navarro out to attack the cdc. these are agencies that donald trump runs. he is now at war with all agencies that should be on the forefront of this battle in the fight against a pandemic that probably, by the end of next week, will have killed 100,000 americans. what's going on? >> reporter: well, look, i think the take away is the president wants to do something, and he's going to do it. if you look at the hydroxychloroquine issue, he's pushed this drug for weeks. despite his health advisers

giving warnings that this is -- and not wanting him to do that, saying this was not something that anybody should do, outside of a hospital setting. as you said, the fda had said. the president previewed this april 4th, when he said he would take the drug, and he was going to talk to his doctor about it. if you look at what the doctor said and what the president said, it's very clear that the president is the one in the driver seat here. he said he wanted to take it. he asked his doctor about it. they had conversations about it. so the doctor made that happen. white house official told us yesterday that people around him, who work for him, didn't know that he was taking this drug. they were surprised when he announced that he was taking the drug. they were scrambling to try to put together a statement from the doctor. you know, the other takeaway is that if you remember back when the president's valet tested positive for coronavirus the week of may 7th, he said that he

was barely around him. he didn't really spend that much time with him and wasn't worried about it. we're told that is the reason why he is taking this drug, is because he was potentially exposed then. it suggests the president is far more concerned about this, contracting coronavirus, than he's let on at different times. there are some things that he said yesterday that i think you could see potentially coming back to hurt him, particularly politically. one of them is he said if it doesn't work, quote, you're not going to get sick or die. well, if that doesn't wind up being true for other people, then, you know, that's something that could really -- you could see it being in a political ad this fall. so, you know, look, joe, this is a president who, very clearly, just wants to do this. he's kind of playing his own doctor here. here we are. he really relished yesterday in announcing this to the press.

enjoyed seeing the looks on everyone's faces. in large part, you know, he's just going to do what he wants to do. >> ysaid if something happens t people, they get sick and die. they have already. the trump administration has already said, "don't take this. you will get sick and could die." so that's already happened. it will continue happening if people, unfortunately, listen to what the president says. carol, have you heard or have any reporting at all to explain this obsession with this drug that the president has repeatedly brought up? he stopped bringing it up, of course, when his own fda said that it will kill you, when the va said it will kill you. around the same time, he then started talking about injecting disinf

disinfektants into the human body or shoving lights into the human body. now, he's come back to it, and there's been an obsession with this drug. any connections with the people who make the drug that you've been able to report out? not asking about speculation. has anybody found anything hard and fast on why this president is so obsessed with pushing this drug, that his own administration says will kill you? >> reporter: well, look, he said yesterday that he had no personal -- there was nothing he was going to personally benefit from in pushing this drug. it is a great question. i know it is something folks are looking into. but you also know that some of the people around the president, his allies, particularly outside the white house, have pushed this idea. on top of that, we know that this is a president who really just wants to turn the page on coronavirus, wants some sort of, for weeks, has wanted some sort

of cure all, some kind of miracle to come through, so that the country could move beyond this. he's really latched on to hydroxychloroquine as a potential for achieving that goal. now, you've seen him take it to the next level, where he says he is taking it himself. >> stay with us, carol. we have more to get to next block. willie, think about it. we're sitting here at 90,000, over 90,000 deaths, and moving toward 100,000 deaths. we're trying to move toward reopening the economy as soon as we can safely. hopefully, states will reopen the economy, and they'll do it by following the white house guidelines. here we are at 90,000 american deaths, and the pandemic the president said was one person coming in from china in january. wasn't going to hurt it. ignored the warnings throughout january. in february, he said it was 15 people and would be down to zero in march. he said, "i'm not worried about

this at all. it'll go away in april." april, more people died of this pandemic than died in the vietnam war. here we are in may. in may, in the middle of this crisis, when we're trying to move forward safely to reopening, you have the president of the united states who is at war with dr. fauci, with his own fda, with his own c dcdc, his own department of humn services, with his own va. basically, anybody that provides him medical facts. anybody that puts scientific facts in front of him. anyone who puts data in front of him now considered by donald trump to be their enemy because it doesn't line up with his own deadly, magical thinking that he's been engaged in since

january. >> he's asking his tens of millions of followers and the people who voted for him and admire him to listen to his hunches and not all of those organizations and all of those scientists and all of those doctors that you just mentioned. you don't really need to wear a mask. i don't wear a mask. you'll see me in public. i'm not wearing the mask. i'm taking hydroxychloroquine, despite what the fda said, despite the va study. what has he spent his time ding overnight? he's attacking the one person on fox news who sounded the alarm to fox news viewers, saying, "don't do this. it could kill you." his last six tweets have been about neil saying insults about him, saying fox news isn't the same anymore. that's where the president's head is. we'll be back with more on this. >> willie, again, i hate to keep repeating myself, but it's the truth. i'll keep repeating myself. if neil were tweeting about robert mueller, telling the

truth about robert mueller, you know, people on fox news would be, like, he's fbi. i don't know if i like him or not. if he was talking about ukraine, the lies about ukraine, the president trying to get a foreign power to interference in american democracy. some people would be, like, it sounds bad, but he has a good economy. as we've been saying from the beginning, this is a medical crisis. in medical crises, senior citizens especially, and you and me who have children, who want to protect our kids, protect our loved ones, protect parents, grandparents, we're going to hear what we hear from the president on the television, and we're going to get a second opinion from a medical doctor. that's what seniors are doing all over america.

he is tweeting, attacking neil cavuto. he might as well just be yelling at crashing waves. it is having no effect. yes, it is 35%, oh, neil cavuto is a bad guy, but everybody that's going to be voting this fall will ask their doctor, "is this safe, doc?" the doctor will say, "no. no, donald trump's own administration said it will kill you. don't take it unless you're in the hospital and a doctor is supervising you and tells you to take it while you're in the hospital or a clinical trial." the va says that it is more likely to kill you than heal you. which is why, of course, i know donald trump is not taking this drug. it is nonsense. but, willie, his attacks on anybody, neil cavuto, whatever, doesn't distract from the fact that seniors know he's been giving them bad facts, bad information, bad advice from the

beginning of this pandemic in january. 90,000 americans are dead now. >> yeah. as you say, there are primary care doctors who are standing between the president's advice and people getting this drug if they don't need it. one person he's not yet gone after on twitter -- i expect we'll hear from him this morning -- nancy pelosi. the speaker making comments about his weight late last night. still ahead, new details of the firing of the state department's inspector general. turns out, he was looking into secretary of state mike pompeo's role in selling arms to saudi arabia against the will of congress. plus, the top-ranking democrat in the united states senate, chuck schumer, joins our conversation. first -- >> on a personal note, michelle and i are grateful to the entire bush family for their guidance and example during our own transition. george, i will always remember the gathering you hosted for all the living former presidents before i took office.

your kind words of encouragement. plus, you also left me a really good tv sports package. >> you're not beginning going tt message this time around. carol lee will join us with her latest reporting on the latest casualty in the political addive in the age of donald trump. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. right now is a time for action. that's why usaa is giving payment relief options to eligible members so they can pay for things like groceries before they worry about their insurance or credit card bills. discover all the ways we're helping members today. among my patisensitivity as well tas gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. new sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend.

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mr. president, you did make this nation strong, respected abroad, and because of your leadership, america stood tall then, stands tall now. >> nancy, don't fail to take a look. they're sure different than a lot of those cartoons to had to put. >> over eight years, it was clear, that bill clinton loved the job of the presidency. he filled this house with energy

and joy. >> mr. president, i had mixed feelings coming here today. they were only confirmed by all those kind and generous things you said. made me feel like i was a pickle stepping into history. >> michelle and i are grateful to the entire bush family for their guidance and their example during our own transition. george, i will always remember the gathering you hosted for all the living former presidents before i took office. your kind words of encouragement. >> it has been a white house tradition for decades. a president hosting his immediate predecessor in the east room to unveil the portrait of the former president that will hang in the halls of the white house. joining us once again from the white house, nbc news correspondent carol lee with her new reporting on whether president trump may uphold this tradition with president obama. carol, i suspect that is a question that answers itself. >> reporter: it sure does. you know, as you said, this is

something that's been kind of a ritual or rite of passage for a former president who has just left office. the first one that seems to have been formally taken place goes back to 1980, where then president jimmy carter hosted gerald ford, who he had just defeated in the election four years ago. they got together with the first ladies and unveiled their portraits. you know, this is really a symbol of -- or has been a symbol of how the institution of the presidency sort of transcends the everyday politics and combative nature that some different presidents may have engaged in. what i'm told is this is not happening while president trump is in office. president obama has no interest in doing it while president trump is here. president trump really doesn't mind, you know, letting go of another white house -- or presidential tradition like

this. so it is kind of, i think, history will look back at this as a snapshot of the political climate in 2020 and how bitter it was. obviously, president trump has accused president obama with unfounded claims of him committing an unspecified crime. president obama is going to be campaigning aggressively for joe biden against president trump. even in an election year, which the last two events in the east room have been -- unveilings of portraits have been while the sitting president is campaigning for re-election. usually, that's able to be set aside, and they can come together and have this event. >> yeah. >> given president trump's rhetoric over the last ten days alone, it is hard to see this ever happening. carol lee, thank you very much. joe? >> reporter: thank you. >> willie, it plays to his 33% again. 35% that may -- all he has to do is say obamacare or talk about

obamagate, or whatever he calls it. 35% of americans will get whipped into a frenzy. the overwhelming majority of americans won't. again, a really bad political play. it actually helps politicians when they're seen being able to be decent human beings to somebody who was a predecessor to them. again, everything he's doing, just bad politics. doesn't make any sense for a president who desperately needs to pick up two to three percentage points in most swing states to have any spot of winning the election. right now, things are going very badly for him, and he's only making matters worse. speaking of worse, willie, i'm wondering, how could mike barnicle's sound get any worse than it is already? do we need to take up a collection for barnicle's --

seriously. [ dial-up tone ] mike, are you on 1995 technology? >> no. i'm going to try this new thing they just told me about, the internet. i'll try using something like that. something like wi-fi. there we go, the dial-up. the old aol dial-up. >> yeah. >> joe, would anyone be surprised if, on january 20th, 2021, joe biden has beaten donald trump, and donald trump refuses to go to the inauguration of the incoming president? i would not be surprised at that. >> no, not at all. not at all. it's -- you know, it is really unfortunate. again, not only is it bad for america. i just, again, politically, selfishly, this sort of behavior is bad for donald trump. he thinks that this is 2016.

he's fighting the last political war. he's not running against hillary clinton, who republicans attacked endlessly for 25, 30 years. he's running against joe biden. all of their attacks are falling on deaf ears. they think they're going to be able to take joe biden down by demonizing him. it's not working. they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars. they have focused attacks on biden. none of it is -- kasie, none, none of those attacks are having any impact. donald trump has wasted so much mon mone money. people contributed to his campaign, and it is having no impact. people still feel pretty good about joe biden. >> joe biden and, you know, mike barnicle knows this so well, is the guy that you see in front of the camera, the one that comes across as, you know, a decent,

family man who has dealt with a lot of tragedy in his own life, and stepped above it and risen despite it, the guy that is that politician in public is that same person in private. there isn't, i don't think, a general sense among americans that, you know, they're not getting what they're seeing from the former vice president. you know, that's what the president and his allies are trying to do. they're essentially running the playbook they used begagainst hillary clinton. kevin mccarthy said the quiet part out loud at one point, saying the benghazi investigation was aimed at hillary clinton's poll numbers. they're trying to do a similar thing in the senate right now. there are investigations into bu b burisma and hunter biden. lindsey graham may try to haul former obama officials in front of the judiciary committee to talk about michael flynn and all of these things.

i think your overall point, and part of why the poll numbers are what they are, is there is a political image and then the person themselves. when those line up, in a way that people support, it's a lot harder to make those kinds of political attacks. i mean, we'll see. we still got six months left, but we've said, you know, a thousand times, and it was the kicker of this great "washington post" story over the weekend, that the best way for donald trump to win the election is to do the job that he was elected to do. which is to get americans safely to the other side of this pandemic. you know, i still think, if he fails to do that, i mean, good luck attacking joe biden. last thing i'll say, joe, too, is, you know, they portray this campaign as a death star. they've sort of embraced this meme. like, did anybody over there watch "star wars"? yeah, there was death and destruction, but the end of the day, the death star didn't come out the other side of the movie. that analogy confuses me. >> they did it with thanos, too.

they need to get out a little bit more. yeah, john heilemann, who is going to be with us at the top of the hour, talks about how elections used to be won after labor day, and they did when i was younger, growing up. traditionally, you had the campaign starting date the day after labor day. now, elections seem to be won or lost, if you look back at history, except for 2016, in may, in april, in may, in june. i just, you know, i haven't believed, and i've said it for some time, even though i believed in 2016 donald trump could win, i haven't believed that. he's at 40%, 42%, 43% president. i'll tell you what, i'm believing more and more that he is blocking himself out of a white house victory right now in may. i think historians may look back, and if he loses the election, they'll say, "you know what, he lost it in april and

may, when he was talking about disinfectants, when he was talking about sticking lights inside of stomachs, when he was talking about hydroxychloroquine, talking about taking it when he was at war with the health and human services department that he was in charge of, when he was at war with the centers for disease control that he's in charge of, when he was at war with the food and drug administration that he is in charge of, when he is at war with the veterans affairs administration that he is in charge of, when he was at war with dr. fauci, who works in his administrati administration. when he put himself at war with every doctor or every scientist or every person who had spent their entire life planning for this moment when it came to vaccines." the president decided to reassign that person during the

middle of a once in a century pandemic that will kill 100,000 americans in the coming weeks. we'll cross that 100,000 threshold. americans are going to -- i think historians, americans are going to look back to these months and decide, this is when donald trump did more damage to his campaign than any democrat ever could. anyway. straight ahead, eugene robinson says the president's attempts to smear former president obama will backfire. with who? the swing voters who will decide the election. there are 4% of americans who are swing voters and decide elections. this is who donald trump is chasing off with all of these political attacks, promises to get rid of obamacare, which

actually is a hell of a lot more popular than donald trump himself. gene joins us straight ahead. hed hed ♪ ♪ ♪

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a lot of our people kept the obama inspector general, and i think generally speaking, that's not a good thing to do, but they've kept him. i told them for three years, i said, "anybody wants to get rid of their inspector generals because they were appointed by president obama, i think you should do so." some of them didn't, but now

they're doing -- a couple of them are doing it now. >> the state department's inspector general, first thought to be fired for investigating the secretary of state for assigning personal tasks to a department staffer, also was investigating the approval of an arms sale to saudi arabia without congressional approval. officials from different congressional committees told nbc news they believe inspector general steve linick was fired, in part, for up veinvestigatingi arm sales congress previously rejected. house foreign affairs committee member, eliot engel, of new york confirmed that late monday. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are demanding a complete explanation for linick's firing. chuck grassley of iowa reminded president trump the law requires detailed explanations for dismissing a departmental watchdog to ensure inspectors general are not removed for political reasons.

president trump said the claims the secretary of state potentially misused government resources are overblown and seemed to consider them acceptable, even if they are true. >> look, he's a high-quality person, mike. he is a very high-quality, ap l brilliant guy. now, i have you telling me about dog walking, washing dishes. you know what? i'd rather have him on the phone with some world leader than wash dish es because maybe his wife isn't there or kids are -- what are you telling me? it is terrible. it is so stupid. you know how stupid that sounds to the world? unbelievable. >> he had to wash dishes because his wife wasn't there. secretary of state pompeo requested the dismissal of ig linick but did not directly address the issue of retaliation. >> mr. president, isn't there an appearance of a conflict of interest, if secretary pompeo is asking you to fire an inspector

general -- >> that i can't tell you. i don't think so. maybe he thinks he is treated unfairly. again, he wanted to -- he asked me if that would be possible. i said, i'll do that, sure. i think it should have been done a long time ago, frankly. this is a man that has had some controversy, this inspector general. so, again, i don't know anything. i haven't even read much about him. i see that it is a little bit of a story. not much of a story. everybody agrees that i have the absolute right to fire the inspector generals. >> secretary pompeo dismissed the idea that his request for the firing was in retaliation for linick's investigations into arms deals and the errands, saying, quote, because i simply don'tbriefed on it. i see the investigations in final draft form 24, 48 hours before the ig is prepared to release them. it is simply not possible for this to be an act of retaliation. end of story, says secretary pompeo. the state department's under

secretary for management told the "post" a concern over linick had grown because of a, quote, pattern of unauthorized disclosures or leaks to the news media about investigations that were in early draft form. he added, officials had no evidence linick was personally responsible for the leaks. kasie hunt, there's a lot to unpack there. let's go back to the arms sale though. this was a year ago in may, when the president and secretary pompeo declared an emergency, bypassing congress to sell about $8 billion worth of arms to saudi arabia and the uae. it drew condemnation, by the way, from republicans, not just from democrats. there was bipartisan condemnation of this move. now, it appears that the inspector general was looking into that declaration of emergency. >> yes, that's what nbc news learned late yesterday, when chairman engle confirmed this investigation was going on. they were angry that, essentially, he had -- the president and pompeo had tried

to circumvent congress on this issue. a lot were invested on what was going on and opposed this move by the administration. willie, let's not forget to put the firing of this inspector general into kind of a broader context and pattern that we're seeing going on here. this is not the first time something like this has happened. the administration has already ignored the rules that they are supposed to follow when something like this happens, in the case of michael atkinson in the intelligence community, by not explaining to congress within 30 days why they did it. so, you know, i think there is a question as to whether the administration will do it in the case of the state department. this has been something that has drawn, as you pointed out, bipartisan condemnation. chuck grassley, senator from iowa, has been particularly focused on this. the reality is, congress is relatively toothless in this regard. they can make these demands, asking for more information, but the laws are not necessarily

written in a position that's strong enough to let them make a real difference here. what we're left with is kind of a government that is increasingly not being held accountable. now, how that lines up with, you know, the president's campaign promise to drain the swamp, i will let our viewers decide. they seem to be at odds. >> donald trump talked about how incredibly stupid things sounded at his press conference. i agree. kasie, i want you to listen to this clip one more time. let's focus on the part where donald trump says that he doesn't want mike pompeo doing dishes if his wife isn't there. take a look. >> look, he's a high-quality person, mike. he's a very high-quality, brilliant guy. now, i have you telling me about dog walking, washing dishes.

you know what? i'd rather have him on the phone with some world leader than have him wash dishes because maybe his wife isn't there or his kids are -- you know, what are you telling me? it's terrible. it's so stupid. you know how stupid that sounds to the world? unbelievable. >> quoting the president of the united states, do you know, mr. president, how stupid that sounds to the world, that in 2020, you say he needs state department officials to wash his dishes in case his wife isn't there. kasie, i don't even know where to go with this. >> well, are willie and barnicle still with us? can we bring everyone there? >> barnicle is on dial-up, 64k now instead of 32k. just moved up from 16k. they are. go ahead. >> so my question for all of you

lovely gentlemen is, what would the response in your households be if you left all of your dishes in the sink, and then proceeded to look at your wife when she came downstairs and said, what is this nonsense? you said, well, you weren't here. you weren't here so, obviously, the dishes are in the sink. i mean, really, how would that go over? >> i shutter to think. i shutter to think, kasie. >> well -- >> i got to say, mike, it is not care to ask that question. ann doesn't trust mike with the china. he gets paper plates. >> she's a smart woman. >> what if you told ann, hey, listen, honey, i've got an important call. you need to come back from your trip so you can wash the dishes? >> joe, years ago, when i had very little and i was working two jobs, i used to sleep in the car sometimes. i think i'd be permanently sleeping in the car if i ever

indicated that to my wife today. >> yeah. it's unbelievable. >> okay. >> it does show, willie, the cluelessness of this president, and why he really needs to speak in -- he needs to read the script. he needs to move forward and just quit rambling. these press conferences are never good for him. women across the suburbs of america, who started moving away from him in 2017, i suspect things like that will only expedite that abandonment. it is the top of the hour. along with willie and me, we have joining the conversation, msnbc national affairs analyst and co-host of showtime's "the circus," and editor in chief of "the recount." the kids love it and can't get enough of it. john heilemann. also, washington anchor for bbc

world news america, katty kay. also, pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post," msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. mika has the morning off. she is stacking the dishes so i can wash them when i'm off the show. john heilemann, i've got to go to you first. you're the one that said -- i don't know why you're laughing, gene. it's the truth. so you're the one that told me that whatever donald trump says is either confession or projection when he's attacking others. he also lies about himself a lot. he certainly, you know, windsormwindsor m mann said if he knows a lot about something, he knows little about something. and if he knows little about something, he'll say it's a lot.

i know there's no way he's taking this stuff. it's just my -- i'm just guessing here, but this guy is so ocd. there's no way he's taking a drug that doctors say, "don't take this drug unless you're in the hospital or clinical trial because it cwill kill you." >> i think the probabilities are pretty low. very low, extremely low. look, he's also, joe, often kind of dumb. it is possible he is doing this and just being an idiot. it is possible. but i think if you think about what's happened, you know, trump's reputation matters to him more than anything. he's always trying to make sure that, in his mind, he is infallible, right? one of the things he's been criticized for most by people in the press, on not just the left but on the right, too, including his friends over at fox news and fox business, has been these

lies about things that are medical, right? the crazy disinfectant, putting lights in yourself, and that stuff, but also hydroxychloroquine, right? he's been repudiated by the data, by the scientists, the medical community, and by much of the media that listens to the data, scientists, and the medical community. over the weekend, you've got a whistleblower who is on "60 minutes." you know trump is watching "60 minutes" because it has big ratings. he's watching it because he is tweeting about it, tweeting at sherri redstone and going a little crazy. what's that about? that's about hydroxychloroquine. so the notion that on monday, in the face of that testimony, that trump, in an effort to salvage reputation and say, "hey, you know what, i don't care what all the rest of you people say, i know the drug is safe," and he'd claim the ultimate truth, i'm taking it myself, i think that that is a very compelling explanation for what's going on here, against the backdrop of

lies that he tells all the time. then look at the doctor's letter. you looked at it in the 6:00 letter. if the doctor prescribed it to donald trump, and you're putting out a letter, you'd say, "yes, the president is taking the drug and just said so," the doctors would say that, right? you'd stand to reason. instead, the doctor's note is carefully written to give the impression that the doctor has prescribed the drug to donald trump, but it never says he has prescribed the drug to donald trump. i think the circumstantial evidence is strong that this is now 18,423 of the lies of donald trump in his first term as president. >> all right. let's talk about the impacts of this. president trump is seeing a decline in support among olders

vo voters. polling since april 1st shows the president barely breaking even with the oldest voters. trump is now trailing joe biden by as many as -- as much as one point among voters 65 and older and 1.4 points among those 45 to 64. four years ago, president trump peat hillary clinton by 13 points, 55% to 42% among voters 65 and older. according to a cooperative survey. now, joe biden narrowly leads donald trump by one point, 48% to 47%. they're in a statistical tie in the age group. president trump tied with biden among voters 55 and older, an age group he carried by ten points in 2016. biden maintains his lead until november, it'd represent a major shift in the voting behavior of older americans. biden is performing well with older voters in key battleground states. in florida, a fox news roll

shows biden and trump tied among voters 45 and older in the state of florida. quinnipiac poll shows trump trailing the presumptive democratic nominee by ten points among voters 65 and older. if biden can maintain the momentum to november, it'd represent a shift from four years ago, when donald trump won florida vote errs 45 and older 65 and older by 22. another poll has joe biden up 53%, up four points from march. president trump is down four points at 47%. that's a head-to-head matchup with biden leading florida in late may. >> gene robinson, you're writing about how this obamagate conspiracy theory president trump is pushing, as well as his lackeys in the media, writing

funny things about it, will hurt him. but you look at this crisis. we can talk about hydroxychloroquine, but more to the point, donald trump is talking about, promising to try to get rid of the affordable care act, obamacare, which actually polls extremely well with americans and older americans. he's pushing, of course, for medicaid cuts, which impacts what? nursing homes across florida, across arizona, across wisconsin, across michigan. you have, of course, him and his administration talking about actually cutting medicaid, medicare, social security. they've said this. donald trump said it out loud after promising to informnever that. he promises universal health

care for seniors, then he says he's not doing universal health care for seniors. then he's going to get rid of the affordable care act, which is popular with most americans. it is just one thing after another. it seems like this guy, far from working to actually get seniors voting for him again, has been working pretty hard, and not just in the pandemic but on policies, as well, to chase off the very senior citizens who elected him in 2016. >> on policies, he's clearly not been good on health care, which, obviously, older americans care a lot about. florida is a state with a lot of older americans. those florida numbers are stunning. i mean, if he loses florida like that, he's wiped off the map. not just in florida but across the country. you know, i mean, let's look at the pandemic. we've lost 90,000 lives, most of

them older americans. leaving people to die to a deadly disease because, you know, because of your incompetence and your willingness to try to ignore a deadly pandemic is not a good political move. it's just not. and i think, my guess is, those numbers might tend to get worse for trump rather than better as this horrific scourge continues to roll on. i mean, this is just -- it's stunning. all he is able to do is make noise and create distractions. and this claim about hydroxychloroquine, hopefully most of the medical doctors out there, people who might be

taking his advice, will not spread this to people who might die from him. >> it's not like seniors haven't been watching people in the trump administration and supporters of donald trump in the media, and also supporters of donald trump across the country, like the lieutenant governor of texas, basically telling senior citizens, "you know what? we need to be willing to die for the bottom line, so the markets can get going again." stephen moore basically said the same thing. the people that were out protesting, getting sick, risking the lives of senior citizens when they went back home, were the rosa parks of this generation. i could go down the long laundry list of people that have supported donald trump on the media, basically saying the lives of senior citizens matter less than the lives of people in their 30s. i mean, that's been the general argument. that's been the general mindset. seniors are watching.

they can blame andrew cuomo for the mistakes he made, and he made a lot of mistakes. they can try to defend kemp, try to defend desantis. in america, they're missing the bigger point. when the japanese pomm ebombed harbor, america looks to the white house. when osama bin laden blows up the world trade center, americans look to the oval office. when 100,000 americans are going to die from a once in a century pandemic, americans look to the oval office. they don't look to militias or 50 different governors. that's what -- and if the

president in the oval office is making statements that risk senior citizens, the numbers across florida and america seem inevitable. >> there's been a kind of noticeable callousness in some of the debate here over the course of this pandemic when it comes to older people. some of it has come from the white house, you're right. andrew cuomo hasn't always got it right, and he was too slow in acting to shut down new york, which is partly why there was such a wide spread from new york to the rest of the country. listen to his press conferences, and there is always empathy. there's empathy for older people. he talks about his own mother, other people's parents, talks about the fact you'd never want your own grandmother to die. you haven't heard that from some of the people from the white house, but also from the people who have been pushing on the president's behalf to open up the country quickly in the interest of the economy or in the interest of the stock market. everybody wants jobs back. everybody wants people to go out and earn a living again.

you can combine a sense of empathy for older people, a protection of older people. look at countries around the world, like japan, south korea, italy, where they've really -- there have been big problems, but they've looked after their elderly. there is no question you would sacrifice the elderly in order to reopen. that just was not an equation that people thought of. it's been really striking, how as the debate has become more political, it's also become more callous. >> you know, there are these personal moments in campaigns that seem to symbolize something much bigger. people always talk about george h.w. bush glancing at his watch during a debate, like he was preoccupied. i thought that was a bit overblown. michael due ckakis in the helme and the tank. mike barnicle's suggestion. way to go, mike. just joking. john heilemann, we've been talking about how elections are

won or lost in may, april/may, these days. sometimes, people's images are defined in april and may. april and may have just been absolute disasters for donald trump. it'll be hard for him to get the senior voters back. the president promised this was magically going to go away in april. more people ended up dying in april than died in vietnam. more americans died in april. most of them, senior citizens. you've got donald trump. when senior citizens need leadership from the white house, at war with his hhs department, at war with the centers for disease control, at war with the va, where so many of the greatest generation are dying in va homes that donald trump is responsible for. you have him at war with the fda. you have him at war with dr. fauci. i mean, donald trump is talking about injecting, you know,

disinfectants, sticking lights into bodies, taking medicine that his own administration said will kill you, more likely to kill you than heal you. i mean, he is making this election a hell of a lot harder for himself than he needs to. >> right. think about it this way, joe. there is another element to this, which i totally agree with everything you've been talking about. focus on seniors is important. there is no world donald trump wins the election without seniors. he won by seven points in 2016, according to the exit poll. the poll now has him running negative 15 with biden, a 22 point swing over the course of the last four years. the point about the spring, right, is this in the spring of 2012 is when the obama campaign defined mitt romney and made the election a choice and disqualified romney, right? the spring of 2004 is when george w. bush defined john kerry, made the election a

choice and disqualified kerry. the trump campaign is trying to do the same thing to joe biden. how are they doing it? the digital work, trying to define joe biden as too old, too infirm, too out of it to be president, right? how does that play with seniors? how do those arguments play with people who are over 65? this is a really delicate thing that they're trying to accomplish, which they have no delicacy, right? if that's the argument they want to make, that joe biden is too old and too infirm and too senile to be president, there's going to be an awful lot of seniors who are already, for the reasons you've talked about, drifting away from donald trump. now, they're hearing an argument, a negative frame put on joe biden, which is that he is too old to be president. he's lost his mind. i think that that is a very, very tough sales job they're trying to accomplish right now in the spring. that's another reason why these numbers are getting away from them with this very key demographic, among others, but especially with seniors.

donald trump doesn't win seniors, he's not going to be president, to get re-elected. right now, he is not close. >> boy, it sure is a strange argument. we've talked about it on this show before, to talk about joe biden gumbbumbling around, beino old, and getting confused, when "the daily show" has, it seems, hours of clips of donald trump stumbling around, becoming disoriented, forgetting his way through sentences, seeming completely overmatched by the job. sometimes, just looking a ining confused. anyway, willie, we've been talking in the past about backgrounds. i think you were talking about pineapple backgrounds. pineapples in backgrounds. the pineapple dicing which, of course, led us to all of mike barnicle's "goop" articles about pineapple cleansing. be sure to check that out on

"goop" right now. look at heilemann's background. he's gone from the white sterility of his kitchen to very warm. i love the gray off yn sset by colorful artwork. we have a cornucopia of visu visual -- visual points to look at here. that's pretty good. what do you rate that background compared to the kitchen, willie? >> yeah. i'm going to take this over the kitchen. i'm going to give john a nine. i agree with the color. it looks a little staged, like he is on the floor of a high-end furniture store. >> come on. >> perhaps with a drone. >> who said i'm not? who said i'm not, willie? how do you know i'm not on the floor of a high-end furniture store? i could be. you've got to stay safe in these days, willie. sometimes high-end furniture stores are the best place to stay safe and healthy.

>> well, it's working this morning. >> how do i please roomraider.com, or whatever the weldon. what is the safest with a i to reopen the country? we already have a model right in front of us. that advice next on "morning joe." ♪ living and receiving takes s. so here's to the strong, who trust in our performance and comfortable, long-lasting protection. because your strength is supported by ours. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. let's be honest. quitting smoking is hard. like, quitting every monday hard. quitting feels so big. so try making it smaller, and you'll be surprised at how easily starting small can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette.

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the trump administration is expected to announce a $354 million contract today for a start-up company designed to bring medical manufacturing needed for covid-19 patients back from overseas. the company, flow corporation, is based out of richmond, virginia, and would be responsible for manufacturing generic medicines and pharmaceutical ingredients, which mainly are produced in china and india. the $354 million, four-year

contract has the potential to be extended to ten years for a total of $812 million. white house trade adviser peter navarro said the project, quote, will not only help bring our essential medicines home, but do so in a way that is cost competitive with the sweatshops and pollution havens of the world. the biotechnology company, moderna, announced its vaccine candidate appeared to be safe and was able to build an immune response against the virus in a small group of patients. moderna released details yesterday from its phase one clinical trial, that eight healthy volunteers between ages 18 and 55 received low and medium doses of the vaccine. all participants had developed blood levels of virus-fighting antibodies similar to or greater than those in recovered coronavirus patients. this suggests but does not prove some level of immunity. it remits only a first step in a long process to bring a vaccine to market.

the company will be proceeding with its accelerated timetable by continuing with the addition of two more age groups, 55 to 70 years old, and 71 and over. then comes a second phase of 600 people with a third phase beginning in july involving thousands of healthy people. joining us now, staff writer at the "new yorker" who has a new piece, "amid the coronavirus crisis, a regimen for re-entry." good to see you. i want to ask about the prospect for this moderna vaccine, some suggesting perhaps it could be ready for the the first of the year. obviously, that'd be an accelerated timeline for any vaccine. what do you make of this latest research from that company? >> well, it's remarkable. we now have three vaccine trials that have come out showing some effective vaccine. to put it in context, my vaccine

colleagues tell me that in the past, this is a three to five-year process to get to this point. they've done it in under three months. you know, we have over 100 vaccines on the table that are moving out. trials are starting with each week that passes by. this accelerated time path, you have to hit a lot of marks in order to be successful in the next couple years in producing everything that we need. but this is a remarkable first step. >> what happens if they have it ready, let's say, by january, which, again, is incredibly optimistic? how soon can you get that? how soon can you produce it and get it into mass quantities across the country, to the point where enough people could have it where we could say, all right, time to get everything back to life before coronavirus? >> we're trying to do something never done before. to go from conception to mass production and delivery across the world has never been done in under -- typical is 20 years. the fact we've compressed this to three months suggests that

we're learning how to move incredibly fast. what kind of time production to how to drive the production forward, it's been years before. we're learning to compress that to months, hopefully. but i think it is still realistic to think we're looking end of 2021 to get mass distribution. it is a guess though. it is amazing how much people have been able to create new solutions. >> it is incredible, what scientists are doing right now. i want to ask about your piece. you write, amid the coronavirus crisis, a regimen for re-entry. this, obviously, is at the heart of grappling with, from the white house to governors to municipalities, school boards, summer camps. what is your idea of the best way to reopen the country? the president is in full reopen mode. public health officials say we've got to be more careful and test. where do you come down on this? >> well, so it's not hardly my

idea. there's one group who have been going to work through this whole crisis, in the height of the hot spots, and that's health care. in health care, we've not let hospitals become zones of transmission. there is a playbook, and that playbook has four elements. we know all the elements. it is a matter of putting them together. it's hhygiene, distancing, mask, and screening. i think we're getting -- you skip any one of them, and it doesn't come together. i think we're getting hygiene and distancing protocols, stay at least 6 feet. they're not enough. now, we recognize how masks help make it so i may be silently infected. i may be unwittingly carrying the virus. if i wear a mask, i protect you. if you wear a mask, you protect me. the other component which we haven't yet grappled with is screening. every day i come to work -- i'm at the hospital now -- i'm screened as i come in the door.

i asked, do i have any symptoms of covid-19? it can be as simple as a runny nose. if i feel i have cold symptoms going on, i've got to stay home. now, we have asked that question every day. we had 50,000 of us come to work in the last month. 11,000 of us acknowledged we had a symptom like that. 1,400 of us -- so we all got tested, and 1,400 turned out to have coronavirus. over 10%. 90% will have just a cold or whatever, but you've got to stay home. i think as we all roll out and begin gingerly testing the footsteps forward, you have to take seriously your own cold symptoms. now, there is more testing capacity. you've got to go out and get a test before you leave to head into the workplace or head out into the public. >> doctor, does that mean then for people as they go back, or office as they think of reopening, that offices around the united states should get

used to ding toing this protoco? we show up at work and have temperature taken on a routine basis, and potentially, everyone has the prospect of getting a test done? that'd make you feel safer about everyone in your office and make you feel safe you're not taking it home again. it's happening in some schools in europe, for example. the kids are testing themselves on a daily basis. is that what americans should get used to doing if we want to reopen the country? offices, in particular. >> yes. the testing capacity we need is enough to be able to test, that if you have the mildest symptom, you can go in and get the test. what you're talking about is going one step farther than that, which is, saying, hey, maybe we should all get tested regardless. that way, we know who has the virus and who doesn't have the virus. we frankly don't have the capacity for the entire country to do that right now. what has worked in the hospitals, without the capacity to test every single person every week, is that we are incredibly scrupulous about wearing your masks. if you have the virus

unknowingly, you're not spreading it to other people. then, you know, if you have a sniffle, you should stay home, get the test, and know it's okay to come back. >> doctor, this is gene robinson. wh abo what about those of us who unfortunately have seasonal allergies? if i stayed home every time i had a sniffle, i would just stay home. do you make some allowance for that in the hospital? how do you deal with that? >> yeah, it's all these routine questions. when i go in, it is an app and i go to the website. it asks me, do i have a new runny nose or a new sore throat, you know, not about your chronic seasonal allergies. this is something new you've developed in the last few days, monitoring that every day. it is up to us. the temperature measurement, you know, is sort of important, but the reality is, coronavirus,

less than 40% have a fever when they start with the coronavirus. in the serious cases, 90% will go on to develop a fever, but it's these mild symptoms that are theharbinger. we know you are infectious three, four days before that, so routinely wearing a mask on site in the workplace and also out in the world is exceedingly important. this brings up the culture point. we've built a culture where we -- >> i'm afraid we've lost the doctor, which is a shame. i wanted to ask more about gene's allergies. no, seriously, you know, gene, we're at a stage now where, i think, i loved learning that in the state of florida, that

americans didn't wait. floridians didn't wait for the governor, didn't wait for the president to give them any guidance. they weren't giving them the proper guidance. there was a study. they followed cell phone data, and americans were -- floridians decided, even before the orders, they were going to isolate. they were going to socially distance. because of it, all of those dire predictions about florida becoming the next big hot spot didn't happen. because americans made that choice. i certainly get the sense now that americans, understanding what the good doctor said, and he is back with us, so we'll go to him in a second, but, gene, i'm curious if you get the feeling, but i get the feeling that, you know, americans are -- it is getting warmer. infections, unlike two weeks ago, infections are starting to go down. the number of deaths, tragic, but they're starting to slow down. i think we're going to start seeing americans going out much more over the next two to three

weeks. i'm wondering if you feel like, with the hygiene, with the social distancing, with the masks, with the testing, which has gone up in some states, if we should start preparing for that, and if we aren't in a position we can try to do it, understanding there are going to be some bumps in the road. >> i think we're starting to see it, at least here in the d.c. area. i mean, i'm just seeing some restaurants, for example, that completely shut down, now opening for carry-out with a new sort of online ordering system. you just pick up. i've seen some -- a bit of stir craziness in the neighborhood. people just sort of needing to stretch their legs.

so i think people are going to start going out. in my experience, i think they're going to do it gingerly. i think companies, i think a lot of employers are trying to use this time to plan safe ways to reopen. i hope that's going on across the country. you know it is going to be down to people. it's certainly not going to be down to the white house. >> yeah. you know, we have the doctor back. doctor, we have seen americans americans, i believe -- it doesn't fit into narratives you see on blog sites or cable news, but americans have acted, for the most part, really responsibly and have helped bend the curve by staying at home, even when the politicians were behaving in irresponsible ways. i'm curious about where you think we are now. it seems americans are ready to get back out there, are ready maybe to go to restaurants and

eat outside with social distancing, wearing masks, as you said. do you think that we're getting to a stage where, in the next week or so, we can start moving forward? because, in some states, there actually is, for now at least, adequate testing. >> yes. look, i think you zeroed in on something very important. you talked about florida and the fact that people locked down before the governor was even supporting or backing the idea. they locked down just as well as we locked down in massachusetts, with all of the orders in place. we are having to learn, despite the fact that leaders at the national level are sending extremely, not just mixed signals, the white house is pushing people to actually ignore public health guidelines and to, you know, flout some of the most important things we can be doing. we don't talk enough about all of the people who are actually learning to be really wise about moving out into the world. they're being careful.

they're cataking these core ste. we're not throwing the floodgates open. this is a critical point. we don't need everybody to be perfect. one of the models have shown, for example, if we get over 60% of the population to wear masks that are 60% effective, which a double layer, cotton mask that fits pretty well does, we will shut down the virus. you put these steps together, you get us working together and, yes, there are going to be people who are going to be not too smart about it. we have to just keep on going. we just keep on going. i think we'll find we'll largely be successful. not smart to be opening up widely when infection and death rates are climbing though. in many states, they are heading upward, and ewawe want to watch that closely. >> we will be. doctor, thank you so much for your insights. great to have you on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," one major university's plan to

resume in-person classes in august. those details are next on "morning joe."

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we have a lot of conversations in the last few weeks about schools. will people be going back to schools? the university of notre dame has

its idea. it plans to resume in-person classes on august 10th. notre dame is one of the first major universities to announce how it will reopen campus after the coronavirus pandemic shut down universities nationwide. classes will start two weeks earlier than usual at notre dame, and they will forego a fall break in october, so students can complete the fall semester by the thanksgiving break. the university hopes doing so will reduce the likelihood this students will go home for thanksgiving and bring the virus back to its campus. the semester ends at thanksgiving. students won't return to campus until january. in a similar move, the university of south dakota on sunday announced plans to bring students back to campus august 20th, have them leave before thanksgiving, and then take final exams online. jo joe, we're seeing early ideas about how to get people back to school. this doesn't address mass middle school, elementary school, high schools, public schools across the country, how and when

they'll go back. a couple colleges now have policies in place. >> obviously, in our day, willie, nobody at the university of alabama or vanderbilt would ever allow us to take our final exams at home online. >> no. >> it'd be a disaster. >> no, no, no. >> let's bring in right now a member of the budget committee, republican senator mike braun of indiana. before coming to the senate, he spent 37 years running a logistics and transportation company. he knows a lot about getting supplies to people who need them. he also went to harvard business school. already, you know he is a lot smarter than i am. so we should listen to him on moving things around. senator, thanks so much. you know, the news from notre dame, you know, it sounds like good news. i certainly hope it happens.

you know, we've all got friends and loved ones who have children, who want to go back to school in the fall. have you had any discussions with notre dame or any discussions with colleges across the state of indiana? i know that a lot of college administrators are really tied up, trying to figure out exactly how to get this right. what would you recommend to them, to have school open but do it in the safest way possible? >> so the university president that i got to know the best would be mitch daniels. when i heard that just a moment a ago, mitch has kind of reset the bar for all higher education, in terms of maybe how to think out of the box. he was out maybe ten days, a couple weeks ago, and i think he's frozen tuition in indiana at purdue for maybe nine years. how can you do that? but it's guys like him that

motivate me. real brief aside, i started watching your show when you had dr. tom coburn on frequently. did an honorary speech to him last night on the floor. i really believe guys like coburn and like mitch mcdaniels are who i'm going to look to, to see how we change this place. when i got here, it was a government shutdown. then we got into itmpeachment ad then coronavirus. i was probably the senator most outspoken about health care. maybe chuck grassley. it is a broken system. i'd like to get back to it. but, yeah, notre dame, iu, others, i think, are going to follow mitch daniels' lead. he is setting the bar in the midwest. >> mitch is a good person to follow. thank you so much for your kind words on tom. tom was a good friend of mine. the thing i loved about tom coburn, he didn't care what party was proposing something.

he voted based on what he thought was right. just an incredible guy. we miss tom an awful lot. so if you don't mind me asking this, i'm just going to stay on this college thing for a second. i know it means so much to parents, especially students. we have a loved one, someone that mika sort of adopted as a daughter since one of her best friends died, who is starting up school in the fall. she missed her graduation this spring, obviously, like so many people did. but i love the idea of kids going back to college. i think it makes a lot of sense. but a lot of the college administrators i talk to are so worried about dorms. again, i hate to burrow in on this, but how do we make dorm life safer? as you know, if you've been in dorms, if you've had kids in

dorms, man, one kid gets the flu, everybody in the dorm gets the flu. what do we do with dorms? >> so that's going to be a complication, just like entertainment and hospitality in general. they rely on, you know, venues that have people elbow to elbow. when you look at talking about, like, a smart restart, or what you can do, even in the context of dorms, you could, if you had the discipline, and, of course, at that age, i'm wondering whether it'd come into play, you could pay attention to the rules. i've said, listen to the experts on the health care end. beage ill when age iile. university presidents will have to do maybe what they haven't done before, and maybe take a

cue from mitch daniels. we can do both things at once. my wife had a business in our downtown. the whole downtown was shuttered because essential or non-essential. many of those businesses didn't have high density traffic. probably could have stayed in traffic if you pay attention to the rules. i believe we can do both at the same time. if we can't, this is going to belabor itself into the distance future, where the economic carnage will start to surface. >> well, and, of course, it has started to surface. so many americans are suffering right now. so we do have to do it. i go back to what the doctor, our previous guest, just said, you know, we've got to do it. everybody needs to be responsible. everybody needs to socially distance, wear a mask, use proper hygiene. but if we do that, i think americans are ready to get out again and restart this economy.

of course, as you said, for economic reasons, they noeed to. couple quick questions. one, how is ininn doidiana doin of infections? it is not as dense as other areas, but indianapolis, specifically, how is indianapolis doing right now? also, i've been worried throughout this crisis about rural health care. my brother works with a lot of rural hospitals. i represented rural hospitals. they're often overlooked, and i'm worried that even a slight uptick can really slam rural hospitals. how are the rural hospitals around indiana doing? >> my hometown happens to be the regional hospital, and we were blessed until recently, because we got a poultry processing plant, where there were hardly any cases. now, it's flared up due to that. but they're doing everything that needs to be done as a business to contain it.

indiana, our governor, i think, did i correctly. because he emphasized the health components first, and then had a game plan for reopening. that occurred a couple weeks we ago. indiana is a state, like many, where we've got a top 15 metro area in indianapolis. a little concentration up in the northwest by chicago, but most of our counties of 92 socially distanced by the way they lived their lives and we paid attention to the rule there's. it's going well. anxiety about the disease and the pa pa cure -- peculalarity

holds. 75% in restaurants and malls, places mi s like that. you talked about health care and having an entrepreneurial spirit. do you worry about opening up by 75% and the aunt tentrepreneuri spirit we want to see that you could have another outbreak in indiana but any state going out that way? >> in building the business over the years one of the hardest things was try to grow it and maintain fiscal discipline as you do. when we did that coming through 9/11 the downturn in '08 and '09 and even this time good things can come your way even in bad situations. i went out to eat friday and saturday at two restaurants we love. i was so impressed. 50% was a rule currently. they eliminated 50% of the

tables. there was no, you know, ability to try to cheat on the rules. both places, mass wiping things down. i really believe businesses, it's in their own best interests to protect their customers and their employees. so, yes, there's always risk. you saw the scenes from wisconsin, younger kids in a bar, respecting none of the rules. i think it will show up in places where you don't do two things at once. until we get a vaccine and herd immunity it's a different paradigm and i think we'll get used to it. i really do. >> all right. senator mike braun, we thank you so much for being with us. hope you'll come back very soon and i want to thank you again personally for not only myself but my family and a lot of friends of mine on capitol hill still for remembering our dear friend tom coburn last night. really means a lot. >> you're welcome. that's an easy thing to do. he was kind of my mentor even

before i considered running for senator in terms of what an ideal politician should be like. >> yeah. it's a great mentor to have. senator, thank you so much, and, please, be safe. stay safe. john heilemann, so you wanted to circle back around to donald trump. a lot's people -- you talked about monday's hydroxychloroquine statement being inspired by what he saw sunday night on "60 minutes." do you think the general amping up of tweets and of conspiracy theories and this situation where he's throwing everything at the wall, let me just ask you. what do you think is driving that, especially the last two weeks of sort of this political mania? >> right. think about the obamagate thing, joe, all the stuff you're talking about. we talked earlier about the

notion of elections especially with incumbents won or lost in the spring of the election year pt not the fall. your donald trump. what's the obamagate thing? about in all of these conspiracy theories, purely about your base. right? all base reinforcements. not about expanding your vote. and ax maio mate ochlaxiomatica trouble worried about the vote. a bio on biden last week. took time looking at that. where he's on the air last week, was for the sixth core battleground states. right? arizona, florida, north carolina, wisconsin, pennsylvania, michigan. those are the six we know both sides will fight for, and then they're on in iowa. right? the seventh state. so in the spring of donald trump's re-election, he's putting money into a state he

won by nine points in 2016. that's a dangerous time for the trump team and then you look at those battleground states. the markets on the air, grand rapids, michigan, in the pittsburgh suburbs. in the panhandle of florida. >> oh, boy. >> joe, you tell me what it means for donald trump in may that he needs to reinforce, shore up his base in the panhandle of florida in may of 2020? >> yikes. >> that is a flashing red warning sign. not just they're in trouble but know they're in trouble. >> what it means is that they really are trying to pull everybody out in northwest florida to compensate for all the votes they're going to lose in the rest of the area. grand rapids is far different. that's obviously romney territory. they were skeptical of donald trump originally. but then went to him, but obviously, they're in grand rapids for a different reason. iowa, boy. that's just bad news.

so, katty, curious what your take is on the fact that the trump campaign is attacking joe biden, throwing everything they can at joe biden and barack obama and it's a really bad sign if you're fighting a guy who hasn't been in washington for four, four and a half years, but why do you think those attacks just aren't sticking to biden? they've wasted tens of millions of dollars attacking biden, and it doesn't seem to be having the impact that it had on hillary clinton. >> yeah. you know, these attacks are pretty targeted. they're going after biden on fracking and on oil production in pennsylvania. they're going after him in florida, not totally random. they're doing research. i think it's just all of the noise and all of the coverage is over what trump says every day from the white house surrounding the pandemic. when he says something like, you know, drink disinfectant or says something like i'm taking

hydroxychloroquine which is potentially dangerous. yesterday the stock market rose 900 points. the dow rose 900 points. great news out of moderna, the possibility there may be a vaccine by fall. the coverage on fox news even that the president is taking hydroxychloroquine. stomping on his own message. ambiguous advice and commitment to his own guidelines that's come out of the white house is what people are hearing. >> yeah. it's a problem. still ahead, the top senate democrat chuck schumer joins, plus another of our upcoming guests says that airplanes don't make you sick. really. really? okay. i want to hear this. mika and i will be flying sometime soon. hearing his argument "morning j"

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the frontline workers, many, many are taking it. i happen to be taking it. i happen to be taking it. >> hydroxychloroquine. >> i'm taking it. hydroxychloroquine. right now. yeah. a couple weeks ago, started taking it. >> why? >> because it's good. i've heard a lot of good stories. if it's not right, i'll tell you, not going to get hurt by it

if you are in a risky population and you are taking this as a preventative treatment to ward off the virus, or in a worst-case scenario dealing with the virus and you are in this vulnerable population, it will kill you. i cannot stress enough. this -- will -- kill you. >> i find the president is concerned the -- he's our president and i would rather he not be taking something that has not been approved by the scientists especially in his age group, and in his, shall we say, weight group, what is morbidly obese, as they say. so i think it's not a good idea. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday may the 19th, and i don't even know where to begin with yesterday. often i -- the president will say things, and, to distract and

obviously we're passing a 90,000 threshold of dead americans, and you have many saying that actually it's far more than that. you have a lot of scientists and doctors and nurses saying that from everything they've seen it's far more than that, but sometimes, i talk about bright shiny objects that the president tries to give us to follow. or talk about separating the signal from the ground noise, and this certainly was thrown out as a distraction, because the president always wants to distract from his failures. and certainly probably now distract from the fact that the secretary of state was being investigated and that the president was being investigated for saudi arms sales, and so they fired the investigator, and that's, of course, what the senate's now doing. they're investigating the investigators, because they've been caught time and time again.

but when the president of the united states actually says he's doing something, which, let me assure you, he is not doing. let me assure you, the president of the united states is not taking hydroxychloroquine, and all the time that i knew him, i only sat for one meal with him, and before that meal he had wipes, like this high, and just go through the wipes compulsively, and wipe his hands, sanitize his hands before eating anything. so he's not taking something that his own administration has said will kill you. that his own fda said will kill you. that the v.a. said will kill you. and fox news, neil cavuto said

on fox news and assay this i sa seen jernior seniors, i'm so worried about you, and the president said this over the past few months. listen to fox news, it will kill you. fox news's neil cavuto said and that's what doctors will say, too. the fda said, take it if you're in the hospital or take it if you're in a closely-watched clinical trial. but don't -- don't take it unless you're under those two circumstances. so the president's not taking it and yet -- and yet he's telling americans that they should take it. it's -- it takes his responsibility to a whole new level, willie. i've got to say, this is a man who from the very beginning of his administration has acted

like he doesn't want to be re-elected. i'm dead serious about that. he does things every day that only cause more problems for himself, and yesterday, of course, we're going to show polls in florida. we're going to be showing how he's losing seniors. here's another great example. what are seniors going to do? are they going to go out and start popping hydroxychloroquine? no. talk to doctors who say, don't do it, especially if you're donald trump and you have all of these -- these challenges. i mean, he's old. he is overweight. he certainly does -- he's at least would fit into the obese category and those are real risks for -- for -- for having a very bad reaction to covid-19, and so i'm just worried this morning there are some people who may have seen that yesterday

and think that maybe they need to do it, and my message today is, don't do it. first of all. secondly, know that president of the united states an extraordinarily selfish man is not doing something that the trump administration said will kill you. >> yeah. and we're going to talk to a series of doctors this morning to make that very clear. dr. gupta will tell us about the dangers of hydroxychloroquine. as you pointed out, the fda itself on april 24th less than a month ago issued a warning about hydroxychloroquine causing heart abnormalities. a lot of skepticism whether the president is actually taking hydroxychloroquine or changing the subject and troll ag biing . if you didn't see it yesterday, president trump said he's been taking a daily dose of

hydroxychloroquine for about a week and a half. the president previously touted the anti-malaria drug as a treatment for the coronavirus despite studies questioning its effectiveness at treating the virus and laying out its dangers including a study from his own v.a. that actually found an increase in mortality with those who took the drug with covid-19 and a warning from his own fda about potentially deadly side effects. president trump told reporters yesterday he does not believe he's been exposed to the virus but decided to take the drug after consulting with the white house physician. >> did the white house doctor recommend that you take that? >> yeah, the white house doctor. did recommend. said what what do you think? i'm like to take it. a lot of frontline doctors are taking hydroxyhydroxychloroquin. no, i don't own the company. i want the people of this nation to feel good.

just waiting to see your eyes light up when i said that, when i announced it. yeah. ei i've taken it about a week and a half and and i'm still here. >> explain, what is the evidence it has a preventative effect. >> here you go. you ready? my evidence. i get a lot of positive calls about it and a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy and i say, hey, you know the expression i've used, john what do you have to lose? okay? what do you have to lose? i have been taking it for about a week yand a half? >>er d every day. i take the pill every day. at some point i'll stop. i'd like to have the cure or vaccine and that will happen i think very soon. >> so the white house as usual scrambling in behind something the president said. the white house physician sean connelly released a statement, after numerous discussions he

and i had for and against the use of hydroxychloroquine se concluded the benefit of treatment outweighed the ricksk. the president is healthy and symptom finish free. he started taking the drug after his valet tested positive for coronavirus earlier this month. white house aides were caught off guard by president trump's decision to disclose he's been taking the drug. the white house said only a small group of aides knew the president was taking it. there's a big tell in there in the presidential rambling speech whether or not he was taking it. i've been waiting for your eyes to light up as he looked at members of the press. in other words, i knew this would be provocative and upset a lot of people and here it is. >> yeah. and the president says, what do you have to lose? well, your life. >> yep. >> you could die from it. it's not just fox news telling you that.

that's also donald trump's fda. donald trump's v.a. the trump administration, has said, please, don't do this. it could kill you. the v.a. studies shows it increased likelihood of people dieing. if they were taking it. and so, again, the question is, why did the president do it? we, you know -- i think, of course, it was to distract, but at the same time, people that are listening, when he asks that question, "what do you have to lose?" the trump administration says -- your life. >> let's talk more about this with pull monology and nbc news medical contributor dr. vin gupta. good morning. good to see you. thank you for taking a moment away from the work you've been doing. treating, as i said, coronavirus cfb patients on the west coast for some time right now. just first, let me ask you about the president's assertion, his

claim that he is taking hydroxychloroquine. preventatively. we talked about the dangers of using it for treatment. the fda has, the v.a. has, other studies have shown those dangers, but have you heard of anyone taking it preventatively? >> willie, thanks for having me. i'm actually in an icu right now with ten covid patients five feet away from me and asked my respiratory therapist and fellow docs just an informal poll of 30 colleagues on the front lines. no one is doing it. that's 30 versus 1 with the president. be clear, this is not an approved or even thought to be likely approved prophylactic drug for prevention of covid-19. there is no data, none. and for the president to go out there and trumpet that he's been taking it for ten days is

essentially the same as saying, suggesting people wear a mask but not doing it himself. or suggesting other interventions like disinfectants that are horrifying to all of us. this is a subtle way to continue his disinformation campaign, and it's really irresponsible, and it angering all of us who are caring for patients, because people listen to the president. when he said this in march, to take hydroxychloroquine what do you gos to lose? prescriptions went up 46 times across the country. that means people -- there's a segment of america that listens to what he says, and he needs to be responsible with that and not take it for granted. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," can the current iranian regime survive the pandemic? the "new yorker's reporter is with us. and first, the purge on the

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you can count on us. get the connectivity your business needs. call today. comcast business. let's bring in from the white house, nbc correspondents carol lee. carol, we just heard the doctor talk about how americans need to understand that donald trump's running for re-election and so don't listen to this very bad medical advice coming from him and others around him. the strange thing is, his poll numbers keep slipping with seniors. his poll numbers keep slipping in florida. a poll out on friday he's down six points in the state of florida, in large part because of seniors, and that comes from this quack medical advice he keeps pushing, and right now let's just, let's just look at

the trump agencies that donald trump's at war with. the fda. on hydroxychloroquine. the v.a. said they don't like him at the v.a. that has to be news at the v.a., news to a lot of people at the v.a. this week attacked the democrat of health and human services and sent navarro out to attack the cdc. these are agencies that donald trump runs. but he is now at war with all agencies that should be on the forefront of this battle and the fight against a pandemic that probably by the end of next week will have killed 100,000 americans. what's going on? >> reporter: well, look, i think the takeaway is the president wants to do something and he's going to do it. if you just look at the hydroxychloroquine issue, he pushed this drug for weeks, and despite his health advisers

giving warnings that this is -- not wanting him to do that and saying this was not something that anybody should do, outside of a hospital setting. as you said, the fda had said. but the president, you know, he's previewed this april 4th where he said he would take the drug and was going to talk to his doctor about it. if you look at what the doctor said and what the president said it's very clear that the president is in the driver's seat. he said he wanted to take it. he asked his doctor about it. they had conversations about it. so the doctor made that happen. white house officials told us yesterday that people around him who work for him didn't know that he was taking this drug. they were surprised when he announced that he was taking the drug. scrambling to try to put together a statement from the doctor. and, you know, the other takeaway is that if you remember back when the president's valet tested positive for coronavirus, the week of may 7th, he said he

was barely around him. he didn't really spend that much time with him, wasn't worried about it. we're told that is the reason why he's taking this drug. because he was potentially exposed then. so it suggests that the president is far more concerned about this current contracting coronavirus than he's really let on at different times and there are some things he said yesterday i think you could see potentially coming back to hurt him. particularly politically. one is he said if it doesn't work, "you're not going to get sick or die." we well, if that doesn't wind up being true for other people, then that's something that could really, you could see it being political this fall. so, look, joe. this is a president who very clearly just, he wants to do this. he's kind of playing his own doctor here, and so here we are. he relished yesterday in announcing this to the press.

enjoying seeing the looks on everyone's fatesces. in large part he's going to do what he wants to do. >> nbc's carol lee. thank you very much. coming up, senator chuck shoop sir standing by joining us live from capitol hill next on "morning joe." chuck schumer.

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obamagate. going on for a long time. it's been going on from before i even got elected and it's a disgrace that it happened. >> angry disgruntled employee who frankly according to some people didn't do a very good job. >> every agrees i have the absolute right to fire the inspector generals. i think they should have done it a long time ago, you are the enemy of the people! you are the enemy! >> you are fake news. >> i happen to be taking it. i happen to be taking it. >> hydroxychloroquine? >> i'm taking it. hydroxychloroquine. right now. yeah. >> an illustration what a piece in the "los angeles times" describes as the president'sest to distract and spread disinformation. reading from the article, "trump fired yet another inspector general raged against a government whistle-blower and

repeatedly retweeted video of a local television reporter harassed in new york all since friday. also administered a sinister -- the president turned the world's most powerful office into a megaphone for whole sale fabrications to salvage his own political future." joe? >> bizarre conspiracy theories, cruel conspiracy theories. members of his family accusing the vice president of the united states of unspeakable things. it really is. it's a new low and, again, it's short-sided. just ends up hurting him with the very voters he's going to need to get re-elected this fall. it's as if he is intentionally

working hard every day to lose this election. that's his business. unfortunately, with the death toll rising past 90,000, towards 100,000, well, him being so out of control inside the white house, that's all of america's business. especially our senior citizens, who need leadership and protection more now than ever. >> let's bring in the top-ranking democrat of the united states senator, minority leader chuck schumer of new york. thank you so much for being with us. >> good morning, joe. >> let me ask you about, we spoke with some doctors earlier this morning about the reopening of america. how we do it safely. i personally would love for us to follow the white house guidelines where you wait two weeks as, after infections start to go down. that's not happening in some places. let me ask about your state, new york state, as well as the rest of the country. how do we reopen, get this

economy going again while doing it in a way that protects our seniors, protects those with one out of four american whose have underlying medical conditions? >> you need a careful balance, joe. obviously, there's an economic need to get things moving, but there's also a health care need to make sure that this virus is wiped out and can't come back again. i think in new york, we're balancing things very carefully. unlike the sort of whimsical, impulsive and erratic behavior of the president who as you said looks for diversions all the time. he didn't let the cdc guide lynns when to open come out because he didn't like them. when you run away from the truth, when you just do something that appeals to your ego, whether it's true or not every day, you will not succeed in either the health crisis or the economic crisis, and what he did last night is just an example as you mentioned. it's reckless to tell people

he's using hydroxychloroquine. all of the experts say at best it doesn't help. so what about senior citizens who don't go to the doctor? who take hydroxychloroquine? listening to the president. and at worst, it hurts you. i don't know why he did it. maybe he has family or friends who own part of the company. it's not unlike the president. someone at mar-a-lago, oh, this soo good company and he just talks about it. maybe he did it to divert attention from all the bad things happening, and maybe he's just lying. this president doesn't tell the truth. he may be taking this, emay not. what he does is whatever suits his ego at the moment and thinks might help him he does and then it hurts the country and as you said, hurts him. if he had focused on testing, had focused on getting ppe. if he had focused on a careful plan nationwide, how we get moving again, we'd be in a lot better shape than we are now.

a lot of the reason that we are suffering much worse than other countries is inept leadership by this president. whether on opening up in a careful, measured way or so many other issues such as talking about hydroxychloroquine last night. reckless. reckless. >> yeah. well, you know, it's not just doctors saying don't take hydroxychloroquine. it's also the trump administration. it's the fda. >> yes. fda, yeah. >> it's the v.a. they've done studies. it's really bad for americans. also, by the way, we just have to say this. there are a lot of people with lupus. we have a good friend who has lupus and had trouble getting that medication which is for lupus. i had a top republican fund-raiser over the past several cycles, talking about a member of his family who has lupus and it's making it harder for them to get the drug for something where it actually works. let me ask you while we're talking about --

>> -- you don't even know if trump when he went onstage thought of doing this. it's whatever pops into his head at the moment and all too often it's destructive and harmful having nothing to do with solving our problems or the truth. that little shiny object that he thinks will divert attention from his failures. >> yeah. unfortunately in this case, that little shiny object, that nonsensical aside, actually puts americans who listen to him, puts their lives certainly their health in danger. >> even fox news -- >> let me ask you about vaccines. we've heard for a while it's going to take 18 months to 2 years to get a vaccine. that certainly seems to be the case. if you look at history as any guide, but this is unlike any other time in american history, in world history. every scientist, every pharmaceutical company, every bright mind on the planet, they're working towards one common goal, and that is figuring out how to beat this

pandemic. i'm wondering. are you optimistic like me that we may -- and it's just a "may." i don't want to engage in wishful thinking, but that we may beat that 18-month timeline that perhaps we could get to a vaccine sooner rather than later? >> i guess i'd say, hopeful. hopeful would be my word. i hope we can, and i'd say one more thing here. follow the scientists. one of my worries here once again is that the trump administration and donald trump not listening to science or truth will try to rush this in a non-scientific way. move it as quickly as it can but under the guidance of the scientists. because if we go too fast, if we skip too many steps and then the vaccine either fails, because that happened, or has side effects we were not aware of with this very small sample we could be in worse trouble. so let the scientists go forward. make sure they have the resources. we put a lot of money into

barta, now funding some of these groups in the covid 2 bill. let them move forward but live to science and try, try if we can, to shield them from donald trump who one day may say one thing, one day may say the next. may push them to move too fast or whatever. one other point here. when he pulls out of the cooperation of the nations of the world, in creating a vaccine, it hurts us. it hurts us. if another country comes up with that vaccine ahead of us, god bless them, we would want the benefits of that. him not being a part of that consortium hurts us. this is the whimsical erratical behavior donald trump exhibits each day when it comes to this viruses. hope we get a vaccine and let the science rule. >> now would be a great time to be a part of an international alliance instead of trying to go at this alone. it's how we wore world war ii.

helped europe win world war i and how we've succeeded as a in addition in the american centuries. it's whether or not, willie, as we listen to senator schumer we remember about not rushing things. i hope that the timeline is expedited on the vaccine, but we do have to still do it right and listen to the scientists, because if you look at what happens when things are rushed too quickly, you look at abbott labs, which, you know, thank god that they worked hard to move testing, fastesting forward, but in some of those cases, 50% of those tests were inaccurate. so you've got to follow the scientists. you've got to follow the guidelines. you have to remember that fools rush in on so many of these things. we need to do it the right way. >> yeah. and dr. gawande and other doctors on the show said for weeks this is an unprecedented timeline we're putting this

vaccine on. to have something byimaginabl unimaginable. they will move carefully, we trust. senator schumer, i want to ask about the state of new york, your state, our state where we live. obviously hardest hit in all of the country, particular nursing homes where 5,500 people have died in long-term care facilities. on march 25th governor cuomo and the new york health department issued and order that said you have to take from hospitals back into these nursing homes patients even if they have covid. was that a mistake governor cuomo reversed that decision sunday and said, no. stay in the hospital. we won't send you back into the nursing home. was that order a mistake? >> look, i think the governor and the mayor, frankly, have handled things very well. we've been the epicenter of the crisis with so much going on. and the -- the issues of hospitals and nursing homes was very hard to manage. i think they managed it well. nursing homes are not a unique

problem in new york, and in most other states. they have been an epicenter here. i think our governor handled it well. i don't have any dispute what he has done. >> even the fact he reversed the ord er because it's gone so poorly? 5,500 people dead? >> the hospitals have much more room than before. times changed. march 25th. wow. we didn't know what would happen in terms of hospital beds, in terms of ventilators and things like that. now we have more room. so it's -- it's a different situation. >> okay. yeah. again, the governor did reverse that policy because of what's happened inside the nursing homes. on the economic side of it what is the future from your view of the c.a.r.e.s. act that passed through the house on friday? mitch mcconnell, the republicans, has said dead on arrival. another $3 trillion in stimulus. what will a next round of stimulus look like, if not this

bill? >> well it will be a lot closer to c.a.r.e.s. 4 than mcconnell would like to believe. the senate has been derelict in its responsibilities. what are we doing this week? proving right wing judges, approving right wing judges. having hearings on conspiracy theories whether obama/biden. and each case, whether the first bill i called for $8.5 billion. mcconnell said owned need a billion or two and went up to $8.5 billion. covid 3, and 3-5, public need forced republicans to take their heads out of the sand and say, look, we need a large, strong package. the economy is in tough shape. no less than chairman powell, head of the federal reserve, hardly a partisan guy, said, we definitely need more stimulus. that's where the country is at. you talk to small businesses

that are still losing money, going out of business. you talk to families, look at those lines of the people, miles and miles of cars going to the food pantries and i interview them and se say i nerve her to do this before. we need more help and we need it now and i believe america and public pressure will force the republican senator to come around and we will have a package that is urgent and necessary. mcconnell said he doesn't see an immediate need. most of america sees an immediate need. he is way out of touch his republican senators are way out of touch but public pressure around need will move them in the right direction in the next few weeks i believe. >> senator, let me ask you about the future of new york city. you already have big employering saying after that they're not proposing on leasing those huge amounts of real estate in the city because people have proven they can work from home. is this really going to change,

do you think, the nature of new york city? >> i don't think so. i think the nature of new york city, dynamism, strength, the fact people like being close together and where the action is, if you will, will transcend the problems that we face. i remember after 9/11 i was around. i was with president bush on the pile the next day and for about six months all the prognosticators said, forget it. new york city is over. they're going to be a target again. no one will live south, every move out. didn't happen. we will overcome this. new york always does. and i think, katty, the idea that -- i just spoke to a leading business executive yesterday. he said, we don't get the same productivity unless we're mingling and mixing and being with each other. random ideas that might germinate. the idea we'll be in our little cocoons working is a natural

trend but there will are countervailing places where people come together and new york city will lead the world in that. i think new york will be back bigger and stronger than ever because of the strength of new yorkers and the idea that in -- you don't have to have everyone in the country diverse and spread out. some areas where people are there, intense and together. we will prevail. i believe that. >> so you don't buy the argument that this is different from 9/11 because the technology is different, too. you've got employees like jpmorgan, we're spending a fortune on buildings in manhattan. why not keep people in the suburbs? keep them there. we don't need that many people coming in and out of manhattan every day? >> they did that before. jpmorgan had plans for a big real estate because they wanted people there. i don't think isolation and people working from home will prevail. it will in some places in some ways but a need for densely

populated areas where all kinds of people interact, share ideas, germinate ideas, and -- and create new things. new york is one of the most creative places in the world. we're going to need places like that and i don't think the same thing occurs when everyone is sitting at home on their computers. >> all right. minority leader senator chuck schumer, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, joe, thank you, everybody. preparing for postpandemic air travel. we explain how they're doing that straight ahead on "morning joe," and whether it's safe for you to get on the airplane. cancer won't wait.

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welcome back to "morning joe." live picture this morning of reagan national airport in washington. the "wall street journal" is reporting u.s. officials are considering a proposal to begin checking passengers temperatures at roughly a dozen airports soon as this week. this comes as airlines are increasingly requiring customers to wear masks in-flight. the airline industry as a whole remains decimated, demand down more than 90% in no small part due to people's concerns during

the pandemic of being in tight airplane cabins. our next guest says that may not be something travelers should worry about. from harvard school of public health, on this morning, we'll let you explain your argument beyond the headline. people think of airplanes tubes tightly packed and disease is bouncing all the walls and it's a dangerous place to be. what do you say to that? >> it's a common misunderstanding. turns out the air on the airplane is actually quite good. we tend to think that we get tick on an airplane. reality is, the airplane is actually a decent environment in terms of infection control. but we do get sick when we travel. that's because if you think about when you do travel you spend time in the airplane but also can't disentangle that from time spent in the security cues, hotels, changing time zones, lack of sleep. those are risk factors and influences our immune system. i want to be clear.

what i wrote about was the strategies that airports, airlines and people should take to reduce risk. it is not a plan for when that happens. we need to curtail non-essential travel. not saying everyone should rush out and jump on the next flight. same time, need to put in plans that save lives and the economy. if we are slow and measured in our approach, airlines and every other sector of the economy. follow the science, at your past guest senator schumer just says, and put the health and safety of people first, i'm confident we can but measures in place while we slowly restart the economy. >> what does that look like exactly, professor? what does slow and safe look like in terms of the airline industry? most people think, man, i'm not getting in a security line next to a bunch of people. not getting on a plane even with rows separating us. i'm not taking that ricsk. how do you get people over that

psychological hump? >> ask these questions. is it necessary to travel? what's your personal risk pro file? do you have a pre-existing condition? how necessary to take that risk and what's your risk tolerance and are you willing to follow the rulesut in place? wear your mask, keep distanced from other people. everyone has a role to play here. here what it looks like. in 2013 i was one of the lead experts in a national academies report on infectious disease on airplanes and in airports. broke down recommendations what airlines and airports and people should do. on the plaairplane, air pretty good. filtered how that a high-efficient filter catches 99.7% of airborne particles. hard to think about how to handle cues at security gate, at boarding. how to handle concessions. there are things they can do.

including these healthy building control strategies. second, people have an important role to play here. universal masks wearing has to happen. that's shown to be an effective control measure. i've written about this. scientist on mask wearing in airplanes show you can reduce rick by a factor of ten if everybody wear as mask. that has to happen. individuals, too, hypervigilant going through the airport, boarding, on the airplane. ali ality -- at your seen put the air flown directly down. these strategies can get to a point to reduce risk. no such thing as zero risk in anything we do, but for essential travel, slowly we can respart htart how we do this if really careful and take appropriate precautions. >> and i headed a study similar to yourself. surprised about it pap few questions about the inside of the aircraft actually sitting in your seat?

one of the things this research suggested because we breathe in to the seat back of the person in front of us, in a sense that stops the droplets going to other people. but what i didn't understand is what about other surfaces? tray table, the arms? you might have two people get in to that row before you, potentially both have touched your area where you're going to sit. when you're taking luggage out of the luggage bin, somebody else might have touched that. what about those surfaces? >> a great question. we have to be really vigilant. airlines have to choreograph seating to limit interaction. i recommend we stop in-flight service. limb how often the flight crew has to walk past everybody. in your seat things to do. increase amount of air flow right oun pushing down. that can help reduce amount of airborne aerosols or airborne viral particles so the air system can capture those.

also wear ag mask. if we cough or sneeze we're not projecting large droplets on to other people and careful and vigilant in our seats. you should wipe down your surfaces with a disinfectant. you should bedisinfectant, washing your hands frequently. you should have hand sanitizer with you. if you take these controls and the airlines do their part and the airports do their part, we can get to a place where you can minimize your risk and maybe feel a little more comfortable as you think about what that might look like for you if you have to take a trip in the near future. >> you know, i would say, starting to get more comfortable with the idea here as we move forward getting back on a plane and travel again with all the safeguards. and then i heard dr. fair who took all the precautions on a plane, ended up with covid-19 and thought he may have contracted it through his eyes. what's a possibility of that and

if you can contract it through your eyes, should we all look like kareem abdul-jabbar on planes and wear goggles? >> so it's an interesting question, and i'll address it in two ways. think about the systems on the airplane that can actually help. and i know when people get sick when they travel, right? my argument in this piece is saying, if you look at the science here, it's unlikely that it's happening on the airplane. but there are many other ways you could get sick in your travel. maybe you took a taxi, a bus, public transportation. stayed in a hotel. stayed with friends. didn't sleep well. all these things contribute. in terms of exposure, there's a suggestion that's possible. right now we understand it as the main route of transmission is through the mouth and the nose. but, still, if you think about what's happening on the airplane and these healthy building strategies which apply to airplanes, higher ventilation

rates can reduce the amount of airborne virus. it dilutes the amount of virus in the air. if you are doing that and controlling the air flow and if airplanes have gate-based ventilation on, which they don't always do when you board the plane which is surprising and needs to be corrected, we can minimize how much airborne particle is floating around in the cabin. when the system is running well, and when it's on, when you're boarding, you can dilute that concentration. anything that gets pulled into the exhaust system runs through a hepa filter. all those viral particles are captured. the last line of defense is ppe, mask wearing, and if the science bears it out. protective goggles. >> finally and very quickly, professor, would you get on a flight right now as a healthy man from, say, jfk to l.a.x.? would you take that flight? >> the first thing i would do is ask myself, is it necessary? do i really need to be on that flight?

to be very clear from the public health standpoint, the best way to protect yourself, your family and others is to stay home unless it's essential travel at this point. if i had to travel, i would feel comfortable. i know the steps to take. read the article. that gives you tips on what to do. make sure i was hypervigilant in hand washing and maintaining physical distance in the airport and put those controls in place. if i had to do it, i would do it. i would also encourage people to evaluate their own risk tolerance and also think about their own personal risk factors. last, i want to say this. while the airplane environment is safe for transmission, airplanes are a vector for disease. they're effective at moving people around the country and world as a way to bring -- if someone is sick, potentially bringing that to a new area that may have an outbreak happening. >> all right. joseph allen, assistant professor at harvard school of public health. thank you very much. also the co-author of "healthy buildings." how indoor spaces drive performance in productivity. let's turn now overseas.

three weeks after iran eased lockdown restrictions and reopened, coronavirus cases have spiked in eight different provinces. according to government tallies, more than 7,000 people have died with about 122,000 infected. in the last 48 hours alone, iran has seen almost 5,000 new cases. joining us now, staff writer at the "new yorker," dexter fillkins. his new piece "the enemy is here. after decades of hostility with america, iteal khamenei faces threats from within his own country." good morning. good to see you. how serious is the problem of coronavirus in iran and what threat does it pose to the ayatollah. >> it's bad and it's especially bad for them because, you know, this is a regime that's made up almost entirely of elderly men. and who were, of course, especially vulnerable. what happened here was there were reports of this virus being

in the country as early as december. and there were doctors that were sending warnings. and the virus was already -- you know, there's direct flights to china on iranian airlines. the virus was spreading across the country in january and february, and basically there was a new blackout. the government refused to do anything. i think -- or even to talk about it. the reason for that is there was a big parliamentary election in february and they were worried about voter turnout. so they kept everything quiet as the virus spread. and that's kind of what you're seeing now which is -- it's all over the country. it's like too late to contend. >> dexter, compare, if you will, iran's response to china's response obviously early on. china actually punished doctors who came forward. the first doctor who came forward warning about human-to-human transmission. china didn't share information with the united states and the

world early on that could have helped the rest of the world prepare for this disease even while the president of the united states was praising china for their transparency. what about iran? obviously, another to tal to tal arean state. >> it's a really good question. i talked to two doctors there who were seeing cases, people coming in with this mysterious disease, dying very quickly, and they tried. they were sending the reports up the ladder and basically the word came back, keep your mouth shut. don't say anything about this. in fact, don't even wear protective gear because that will cause a panic. and so, you know, the virus just exploded and iran is a very young country, but the -- it's everywhere now. and it's basically because the

government -- it's different from china in this respect. the government did nothing until -- i mean, absolutely zero until mid-february. they wouldn't even talk about it. so i think that's what you're seeing. now i'll say that i am very skeptical of the numbers coming out of iran. i think they're probably a lot worse than what we're seeing. and the reason for that is because it's -- it is a totalitarian system. the revolutionary guards are running the response to the virus and you know, the guards are the sort of -- they are the guardians of the state and of khamenei, the leader. so they have a political interest in keeping these numbers down. i don't even believe those. it's a lot worse than what's being reported. >> dexter, the government was -- the regime was already under pressure because of the shooting down of the aircraft back in january. and now covid. can you give an accurate read from the outside of just how

much pressure the government is under? >> you know, i didn't -- i have to say, i wasn't there a long time, but i managed to talk to a lot of people, and i snuck out at night without a minder and i talked to a lot of people privately. i didn't find any supporters for the regime. i just -- i didn't find any. so, you know, maybe they're all somewhere, but i just found the popular support had evaporated. and what we saw in november -- november 2019, there were demonstrations around the country over gasoline prices. the government killed possibly hundreds more than a thousand people to put the -- to put the rebellion down. and i think that's kind of where we are. and i -- you know, maybe -- how long can a regime like that go on that relies on force? and i think the answer is as long as they have people willing to shoot their fellow citizens, they can probably hang on.

but i think it's pretty fragile. i -- you know, there's no way to know, but i think it's pretty fragile. >> yeah, it certainly seems, dexter, the most fragile since 1979. thank you so much for being with us. we're going to be reading your new reporting in the "new yorker." as always, we really appreciate you being on the show. willie, final thoughts? >> well, one thought is that the president of the united states, again now, saying he is taking hydrochloroquine. flying in the face of an fda, a va study and signaling, why is it important and why is it not just a distraction? he's signalling to people who take him at his word in many ways that that's okay. now standing between that advice and patients are doctors. so as many doctors have told us this morning, a doctor will not prescribe hydrochloroquine to someone to be taken preventatively as the president claims he's taking it.

>> as neil cavuto said on fox news yesterday. i don't listen to the president. if you take it without doctor's advice, it will kill you. it will kill you. that summarizes basically what medicine said about it, what the va said about it, what the fda warned about it. you know what, if you aren't in hospitals if you aren't in a clinical trial, don't take it for covid-19. that does it for us. thank you so much for watching. please, stay safe. take care of your grandparents, your parents. keep a special eye out for seniors. let them know you're thinking about them today. that does it for us. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's tuesday, may 19th. and here are the facts at this hour. this morning, the number of deaths attributed to coronavirus is more than 91,000. that