whatsoever. >> so professor murray, another way of looking at this, aren't we one governor's request away from seeing this actually happen? >> well, that would make it more obvious introduction for the president if there was actually an invitation from the governor of a state for this kind of intervention. but we have seen a number of governors say they don't want this federal intervention. in fact, federal intervention at this point would like escalate the tensions that are already simmering in these states and they feel they have it under control with their own police forces and the national guard. and the real question here, if this were ever to be litigated, and i imagine if the president invoked the insurrection act, it would be litigated quite quickly, is whether or not a court would intervene to provide the relief that the governors request. >> two of the perfect voices for this very conversation and our thanks to professor murray, to colonel jacobs for joining us this afternoon. during this discussion, we've

been monitoring another event and we have some breaking news. the governor of minnesota, tim waltz, has announced that the state of minnesota has filed a human rights complaint against the minneapolis police department in the death of george floyd. this is one of the legal avenues open to them, while we wait to see if the three other officers who were expelled from the force are, indeed, going to face charges. another break in our coverage and up next, president trump's use of a church and a bible as political props and the anger it's caused among rinlgs leadel leaders across our country. when you shop for your home at wayfair

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get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/try and never go to the post office again! we're trying to keep eyes on all of the major metropolitan areas across the country. just in the last hour, we have seen crowds gathering in new york and chicago and west coasters will recognize this march through hollywood, california on a sunny, otherwise beautiful day. we note, as with most of the protests we've been monitoring across our country, this is a peaceful event, a paefl march in broad daylight. we did witness yesterday one of the most disturbing photo opes we have seen thus far from this

administration. after protesters were cleared out of lafayette square with tear gas, flash bang grenades, mounted police, the president triumphantly held aloft a bible in front of st. john's church, also known as the church of the presidents, where every president since madison has gathered at least once to worship. the move sparked quick backlash and condemnation from faith leaders around our country. last night on our broadcast, i spoke to the reverend marianne edgar buddy, the episcopal bishop of washington, d.c. she told me she was not consulted, not informed prior to the president visiting st. john's. here's some of our conversation. >> he was using our church as a backdrop and the bible as a prop in ways that i found to be deeply offensive.

and i felt it immediately necessary for us to disassociate ourselves from his actions and symbols in front of st. john's church. >> today, african-american faith leaders gathered in washington at st. john's church. among them, was pastor michael charles durant of the tenth street baptist church in washington. and he joins us now. just talk about what it feels like for the president's political objectives to now bleed into using a beautiful -- my old boss, george w. bush, it was a ritual and it was a tradition, he made that short trip from the white house to that church every weekend that he was in washington to see this president stand in front of it and wave around a bible made me ache inside. >> as it did me, of course, as a pastor, as a preacher, it's my

desire that every person would not only come to church, but would be in church and that every person would be adherent to scripture. but to use a church and to use the bible as props, to advance an agenda that is zwdivisive, t co-op the church is -- it pains me so deeply that i don't even know if i have the words to express it. it is infuriating, it is heartbreaking, it is mind numbing that the president, a person who occupies the highest office in the land and who was touted as the leader of the free world would do something -- it's beyond me as to how they could not understand how offensive

that would be. and to have done it after tear gas station and rubber bullets to move people who were legally and peacefully assembled in order to get a photo op. it speaks to us volumes as to what the real priorities are in this administration. >> this president fights with speaker nancy pelosi about a lot of policies and it often gets personal, but one of the things that he recriticallies against most viciously is when she says she's praying for the president. and again, it's a limited experience, but in my experience, one of the things that moved and inspired my old boss was that same wish, when people said to george w. bush after 9/11 or after anything, that they were praying for him. what does it mean to you.

what does this moment for faith leaders that we have a president who recoils at the idea that another leader prays for him? >> i can't speak to that. i pray for the president. i encourage my congregation to pray for the president. during this pandemic, we have not been able to meet, but just this past week in our prayer call, and i give assignments for prayer and i assigned one of our deacons during that time to pray for our president. i understand that leadership is difficult. i understand that all of us are flowed and so i hold no hatred for the president. my hard is heavy because of the things that i've seen, but i wish him no ill and i pray for him and i'll go one even further

than that the scripture requires us to love, and not just to love those we agree with, but to love all persons, and those persons who we find more difficult to love, we have to make an extra effort. so when preachers gathered to condemn what we saw wasn't an exercise -- in some degree, was an expression of love. because ultimately, our concern is for his soul. and when you do those kinds of things, you create a kind of backla backlash. the bible says, be not deceived that a man is not mocked. and while the context of that may have a may be applicable to something else, the principle is true, nonetheless. what we do comes back on us. and it just seemed to me, and i

don't want to falsely accuse the president, but it seemed to me to be a preen iing. and this is not the time for any person in leadership to be saying, look at me. the eyes of the world is on our nation and how we respond to the main and to the outcry of its people. an oppressed people, people who feel voiceless and ignored and let me just say this -- and i'm hesitant to say, but it seems since the election, this president has made everything that has happened in and to this nation about him. and it's just not -- it's just

not all about him. there are people who are hurting, who are disappointed, who are fearful and to take a photo op outside of a church. i heard someone say, since he spent more time on the golf course than at church, maybe he should have stood in front of a country club with a golf club in his hand. >> pastor michael charles duran, i think you're right. people are hurting and it's the third pandemic, right? we have coronavirus. we have this spasm of grief over the senseless death of george floyd, and we have a crisis of hopelessness and your voice is really important on all three. thank you so much. >> i'm sorry? >> let me just say this. we aren't hopeless. we are not hopeless. we're not hopeless because we have a greater and a higher

power. if we were hopeless, we would have stayed home and we would have ignored all that is going on. the reason we protest, the reason we lift our voices, the reason we cry loud. the reason we express warnings to this administration and all of our brothers and sisters, the reason we call out to our white evangelical counterparts to speak up is because we are hopeful, not hopeless. >> as i was saying, your voice, perhaps one of the most important ones that i've heard in a long time. pastor durant, thank you so much for spending some time with us. i hope you'll make a habit of it. we're grateful. brian, i don't know what to say. >> nicole, here we are. that was a terrific and impactful interview and a conversation i was following very closely and i'll leave you to your shift and i've never looked to our shift at 11:00

eastern time with more foreboding, because we don't know what we're going to encounter when we come on the air. most nights, we have some semblance of order and a rundown and the writing is done. these days, not so much. and it's usually city streets we care a lot about that we're watching in kind of grainy, herky-jerky video late at night. so i'll be watching. thank you. >> it's such a good point, brian. and i got to be a part of the beginning of the 11th hour. and it did. it started out as sort of this wrap on the day during the campaign and it is not that anymore. it is almost the beating heart of these news cycles. the things that end up on the front page are still happening when you come on the air. so we're all watching, as we always are. thank you for joining us and spending some time with us in the afternoon. we're grateful. >> up next, twitter's warning that an account claiming to be a

national antifa organization is actually linked to a white nationalist group. its posts have encouraged violence and gone viral. that reporting is next. at university of phoenix,

we know you're always there for them. that's why our advisors are always here for you. learn more at phoenix.edu. twitter has suspended an account run by white nationalists group that was pretending to be antifa, the far-left group and one of president trump's favorite targets. the group was calling for violence. a spokesperson for twitter says this isn't the first time the platform has taken action

against the group and that twitter is trying to remove other attempts to, quote, disrupt the public conversation around the protests. joining us now former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence is frank figliuzzi, talk to me about how dangerous and how opaque this is the actual people inciting the chaos we're seeing on american streets. >> a come of thoughts, nicolle. first, i think this really reflects how incredibly complex and challenging the role of law enforcement is going to be here. they are up against it right now with groups pretending to other groups on opposite sides of the political spectrum. all of them potentially dangerous and risky. it makes the intelligence operation that's going along with the violence suppression extremely complicated. second concern that i have,

nicolle, i'm becoming extremely concerned when law ens aforceme does its job, that politically it won't be received well if it's not the right people being arrested or the right groups being sup pressed. we're in a very, very delicate time right now and that's why you're seeing law enforcement agencies across the country giving us a big fat no comment when we ask them to name the groups and individuals and organizations that they're finding on their streets. sources are telling me they run the spectrum of groups and diverse political opinions. you won't hear that coming from our attorney or our president. >> talk about that a little more and, you know, there's a little bit of muscle memory in this country of sort of feeling the

betrayal of our own social media platforms, what felt like advancements in social media being used and exploited by american adversaries. now we understand at a fraught moment in this country, people expressing their grief, their rage, their exasperation with police. just talk about how we're to process it as citizens at home trying to get the right information and the facts straight. >> right, i spent -- as you know, i spent most of my career attempting to counter the efforts of foreign edadversaria which we became aware of in the mueller report and the realization that russians were messing with the democratic system. now, the reality is, we're doing much of this to oust ourselvest like the white nationalists have

taken alesson out of the russians' playbook. foreign adversaries are also playing with us on our social media as rumors of early reports of them being out there wanting to divide us racially. the russians are keen on that. in fact, our own state department back in march issued a report that the russian intelligence services were making efforts to divide us racially. th what it's going to require us to do is to be extremely careful about what we're consuming on social media, we must demand the facts from our government and we must also apply pressure to our social media platforms. i'm encouraged by what twitter is doing. but i predict they'll be denounced by doing it by certain

aspects of our society. >> frank figliuzzi, we'll have back you tomorrow if your schedule permits. a march is scheduled to begin shortly in houston, texas, george floyd's hometown. thousands are expected to march through the neighborhood where he lived. a peaceful show of solidarity and perhaps an opportunity for family and community to begin the healing process. joining us now is priscilla thomas. is this still unfolding the way it looks, peaceful -- >> yes, very peaceful and very large. take a look at this crowd out here, easily thousands of people. we expect up to 20,000 to come out to chant "i can't breathe." they're chanting "i am george

floyd." he was a part of the fabric of this community and people are feeling this hurt here in a very profound way. you know, lots of signs here have been made and people really of all races representing the diversity of the city who have come out today in order to honor his life and i spoke with the houston rapper who helped to organize this event, he wanted to show the family love and give them the opportunity with folks of city before they begin the events that are going to take place over the next couple of the days with the service in minnesota and north carolina and where he'll return here to houston to be buried. you mentioned the idea these are peaceful protests. the mayor here has tweeted that out. police are here. a number of pastors and religious leaders.

the message is here, trey the truth heard people were leaving bricks on different corners, he told them there will be none of that. he wants this protest to remain peaceful. >> price silica, an unbelievable scene unfolding behind you. thank you for bringing it to us american democracy is now under assault. "deadline: white house" next. ; you're constantly weakening that enamel structure. pronamel repair allows more minerals to penetrate deep into the enamel layer and it repairs it. it is pretty phenomenal. i see all the amazing things you have been doing. you are transforming business models, and virtualizing workforces overnight. because so much of that relies on financing,

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hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. there's a tall new fence and reports of a heavy military presence around donald trump's white house today. a literal and figurative barrier between the president and the country he leads as protesters gather there for a fifth straight day. trump's stunt last night, using the military to clear peaceful protesters gathered outside the white house so he could stage a photo-op is sending reverberations around the world today. trump's willingness to trample the rights of peaceful protesters, to try to erase the image of himself as fearful and taking shelter in the basement of his own has been viewed as an ominous sign of his willingness to subvert democracy to grasp for power, as a new low of his

presidency. "the new york times," quote, people who gathered outside the white house to protest police brutality spent monday waving signs and screaming for justice. they watched as police officers and national guard units flooded lafayette square delivered on a threat by president trump. just before the city's 7:00 p.m. curfew went into effect, they were doused with tear gas, because the president who spent part of the week in a secured bunker wanted to have his picture taken holding a bible at a battered church just beyond the gates. the short walk was turned into a political message by the white house within hours, erasing any doubt of its purpose. washington post reports of, quote, when trump had returned safely to the white house the verdict seemed clear -- the president had staged an

elaborate photo-op, using a bible awkwardly held aloft as a prop and a historic church that has long welcomed presidents and their families as a backdrop. aides for vice president joe biden say today that the contrast between trump and biden is nothing less than good versus evil. biden today addressing the nation from philadelphia's town hall. >> when peaceful protesters dispersed in order for a president -- a president from the doorstep of the people's house, the white house, using tear gas and flash grenades in order to stage a photo-op in one of the historic churches in the country or at least in washington, d.c., we could be forgiven for believing the president is more interested in power than in principle. serving the passion of his base.

the presidency is the duty to care, all of us. all of us. not just our donors, but all of us. >> the anger and grief cracked open by the killing by george floyd is still fueling demonstrations across our country, this one in houston, today's protests come after another night of large ones, some turning violent. the ones in new york happening alongside looting in some of the city's most prominent shopping districts. the president's response over police brutality in our country is where we start today. jonathan lemire is back. washington columnist eugene robertson. and claire mccassill. i want to get to the big stuff.

i want to get to the reaction from other world leaders which is really a lot like of all of ours, speechlessness, the raw emotion which can't be captured or really pushed back against, but i want to start, claire, as a former white house staffer, as someone who worked for a president, the president looked like a dope, the president stood in the rose garden, talked about standing for peaceful protesters while his own government was literally gassing them. and then he makes this moronic walk under heavy military protection and waves around a bible which like it's something he's never seen before. >> you know, i am so sad and angry and full of emotion about what our country is going through right now.

and the nerve of this man and the people around him thinking it was a good idea to use police on horses and tear gas and flashbangs to move a peaceful crowd so he could go out there and do something that's in its essence so phony. what's most insulting about it, nicolle, is that he actually thinks that americans believe that he is somehow a christian. he's never read the bible. he doesn't know what's in it. he doesn't -- he hasn't been somebody who has attended church as president of the united states. he's never role model christian behavior. he doesn't know the beattitudes. and so for him to use this bible, what i can't get is people around him, who should

have stopped him and say, this won't work. the people out there that you need to vote for who aren't for you now, aren't going to buy what you're selling. oh, my lord. pardon me. i'm at a loss. i'm just at a loss. >> you jean, i hear you chuckling, we're staring at images that are totally beyond donald trump's control. thousands of people on the streets of new york city, moments ago, we had a live report, thousands of people gathered on the streets of houston, donald trump has lost the thread on this country, the country is having a conversation about grief and rage about the way black men and women in some cases, boys and girls, are

treated by police and donald trump is throwing tear gas at peaceful protesters and not even trying to dive into the stream that's coursing through this country. >> yes, president trump has a way of making everything worse and he's certainly doing it today and did it yesterday and i can't -- you know, i can't speak without first talking about -- you said he held the bible as if it an alien object, as if it had fallen from outer space at his feet and he picked it up and was examining it, no idea what it was and certainly no idea what was in it. but the country is having a conversation about race, an important conversation about race, we do that scratch edly,

we don't all go to our public libraries on a given night and sit down in a circle and have a heartfelt conversation about race. we, you know, we rub up against each other in conflictive ways and that's unfortunately the way we make on -- and the country has decided that this is a moment when we need to have a serious conversation about the way black men and women, but especially black men are treated by police in this society. we have had protest in all 50 states, more than a hundred cities, thousands and thousands of people spontaneously taking to the streets and saying, enough. incredibly diverse crowds. this is, you know, i'm old enough to remember the riots of 1968 and i was in high school --

those were by african-americans who were in anguish and enraged at the assassination of martin luther king. these demonstrations that we're seeing now are -- are much more diverse and much more widespread in terms of the number of cities and citizens involved. but no one is angry and no one is heartfelt -- the country is going to have this dialogue and you know, the sad thing is that president trump is going to get in the way of that dialogue but we're going to have it no matter what he does. >> you know, jonathan, i think you je eugene is right, this is a conversation we're having as a country, this is what's on television around the clock and

the only other story i think that's urgently needing to be told is the ongoing threat of coronavirus, which is a threat that was made worse for every american by donald trump's botched handling of early warnings in january and february of this year of just how lethal and just how dangerous that virus was. the two big conversations, the two big crises in this country, two areas where donald trump has either completely failed or rendered irrelevant, not part of the ongoing conversations by his own design by how we test and trace and reopen the country in a safe way around coronavirus and as eugene just said, this president really has nothing to say and when he does open his mouth, many african-american leaders and democratic leaders think he makes it worse around race. >> certainly this white house

would much rather be talking about this -- the violence in american cities and the protests, most of them peaceful, that's not what they're focusing on, rather than the pandemic. quick note about that, the president has been looking for weeks to change the subject. did not want to revisit again the white house administration's failures and its track records in january and february and early march to prepare the country for what was coming. other than a comment about the vaccine, the white house isn't talking about the public health aspect, they're still pushing for the economy to reopen, everything the president is doing of course is eye -- with his eye on re-election, five months or so away and that includes this, he and his advisers feel like this is a culture war that help them, excite their base and perhaps

they believe if he embraces the mantle of the law and order president which we saw him do yesterday in the rose garden, again today on twitter, there will be some americans who are nervous about what they're seeing unfold across the country who will be drawn to that image the biden camp of course is playing this very differently. they're showing joe biden a compassionate candidate, president trump hasn't done that. what we saw yesterday was an attempt at a display of strength, of american might, or at least his perception of american might, to turn federal forces on american citizens who at the time at lafayette park were protesting peacefully, but the president and the team they wanted that photo-op. they wanted two photo-ops. they wanted the awkward one in front of the church holding the bible, that's a notion of a reclaiming territory outside the white house, a nod to his evangelical supporters. but his advisers told me today, they also wanted the photo-op of

the park being cleared, they wanted to send the message this president is tough on that and that's how they want the governors and mayors to handle their own protest. >> reporter: claire, the idea of violence in american cities, that's really barely aheadline, what's happening in american cities is by and large peaceful demonstrations and i think it's the president's -- the ma lig nancy of trumpism to tie the criminality to the protest over the police brutality. criminals are criminals. vast majority of people this the streets are moms and dads, young people, old people, as eugene has said, people of all colors and stripes saying no more. i wonder if there's some danger for donald trump in sort of

misreading and trying to project a minority of what the majority of what we're seeing on american city streets. >> yeah, a part of this is really incumbent of the coverage of these protests. it's dramatic when there's violence and we saw in ferguson that got way more attention than all of the peaceful people that were out expressing their frustration and anger at systemic racism and the criminal justice system. we got to stay focused on the fact that a majority of people who are screaming right now are screaming peacefully. they're screaming. there's rage. there's anger, which is all justifiable, but there's a very few that have a criminal element and there's ways to get at the criminal element but still de-escalate the temperature. the president is not doing that. he had his chief of staff show

up at the white house yesterday in combat fatigues. you know, nicolle, you've been around the white house. you know that always come in their dress uniforms to the white house. it's very unusual -- >> it was like he was dressed in fl faalujah. i don't that will work in america. most of americans realize that peaceful protests is part of our fabric. that's how we have made progress to a more perfect union. biden did a good job of expressing a lot of that. you try to turn down the temperature. this guy just doesn't get it. >> of course, donald trump is down with the armed protesters in state capitals where they are

upset with stay-at-home orders to protect us from the pandemic. i want to bring into the conversation, our colleague katy tur. katy tur, it looks largely peace frfl the shots that we have seen, take me inside the folks you're walking with there. >> yeah, we're walking up park avenue right now, there are tens of thousands of protesters, they've gathered around 1:00 p.m. today in downtown manhattan and they've been marching pretty much ever since. we made a brief detour into washington park. now we're going up park avenue. there hasn't been any confrontation that we have seen with police officers. there was a tense moment a few

minutes ago when we passed a police precinct and the protesters got up against the cops and they were taunting the cops. the cops did not react at all. this is a peaceful protest, though. the thousands of people that are here, many of them have told me that they don't want anything to do with the violence that happens after hours, but they do have the caveat that they understand it and they hope it's showing the american public and our lawmakers that something needs to change. there's a curfew here at 8:00 p.m. tonight. the mayor requested that it get moved up before darkness fell to try and quell the violence that we see after hours. but the nypd is still expecting the worse tonight and they do make the distinction between the crowds we're seeing during the day and the crowds we see at

night. they're calling this largely an increasingly peaceful protest during the day with these thousands of people. at night, it's an organized effort among anarchists and outside agitators going around and communicated on encrypted apps. and they are keeping ahead of the police and bashing through -- and bashing through store fronts and looting. they made 700 arrests last night. i'm sorry i'm out of breath right now, because we have been walking now for three, four hours. >> they're moving fast. that's a fast-moving protest. katy tur, do me a favor and come back in the next 40 minutes with another update before the end of our hour. we have an overhead shot up right now.

you can see what she just described. tens of thousands of people on the streets of new york city. katy tur describes as of now a peaceful demonstration and in katy's great reporting, a clear sign that things have got to change. jonathan, this is a city that we both call home. there was some political recriminations of the mayor's efforts last night. governor cuomo came on the air with me 24 hours ago to talk about the 11:00 p.m. curfew, lot of second-guessing today that curfew should have been earlier. your thoughts, just as a new yorker, as a reporter, as someone covering this moment in american politics? >> yeah, thank you, nicolle. covered both of the men you just mentioned. yes, lot of second-guessing from governor cuomo about what happened last night. the thought that the 11:00 p.m.

curfew was too late. as katy said it's 8:00 tonight. and every night. governor cuomo of course has a famously frosty relationship with the mayor, it's a rivalry that has flared up throughout their times in office, including during the height of the coronavirus pandemic. governor cuomo casually mentioned today as governor he has the ability to replace the mayor, certainly, he stressed he wasn't thinking about that, of course, no one asked him. i think that was a message sent. but yes, there has some violence in new york the last couple of nights. there was a lot of looting in manhattan. today, peaceful protests and a vast majority has been peaceful. a city no stranger to these types of demonstrations. this is of course where garner called home, that led to wave of

protests. a city of course was really battered by the coronavirus pandemic and i think is fueling some of this, unseize of new yorkers, stuck in their homes for months, frustrated a and scared and so deeply offended and worried about another act of police violence and what happens next and uncertain leadership at times from city hall or the statehouse but most certainly from the white house. >> eugene, i'm going put you on the spot, when you see these pictures in new york city, in houston, when you see donald trump who's so diminished, so frightened coming out of his bunker as jonathan and other news organizations have reported because he didn't like the press coverage of himself as such, in hiding while joe biden became the one out meeting with protesters. are you hopeful is this -- an

infliction point to what? to something better or something worse? >> you know, nicolle, you know me, i'm a hopeful person in general i fear things will get worse before they get better. you know, yesterday in the rose garden the president made all kinds of and lip tick threats about deploying the active duty military forces in american cities. in a way that is -- is frankly unheard of and unthinkable. and you know, he's a very small man who holds enormous powers. and the most chilling moment for me, and the one that really worried me yesterday was during that, that bizarre ranting phone call he had with governors, at

one point his word about dealing with protesters, dominate them, dominate the streets. there was a point where the secretary of defense esper spoke of dominating the battlefield. dominating the battlefield in american cities. that's -- that's un-american and unacceptable language to talk about the federal government and the u.s. military relating to u.s. citizens in that way. it was -- it was an astounding and chilling moment and so if donald trump is true to form, make a lot of noise and in the end he'll wuss out on these outrageous and unconstitutional threats. but i hate to be in the position, i hate that we're in the position that we have to

hope that he's indeed true to form and that he doesn't try something that makes the situation just just catastrophically worse. >> as if i'm cue, eugene said the word hope and we have on our screen, images from hollywood, california, that look like some pretty heavily protected and armed police there in some sort of meeting, meeting of minds. an embrace there with some of the protesters, now these situati situations, they can change, they can turn on a dime but it looks like what has been the case that the protests at least during the daytime the demonstrations involve a lot of people trying to co-exist, if that's the best word i can come

up with right now. jonathan, eugene robinson, claire mccaskill, thank you. when we come back -- joe biden today showing the nation how he would lead us through these times and drawing a sharp contrast to the current occupant of the white house. and what comes after the protests for those who want institutional change, where do we start? how big a role should the federal government play? answers some of the big questions. all those stories coming up. you're clearly someone who takes care of yourself.

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a country is crying out for leadership. leadership that can unite us.

leadership that brings us together. leadership that can recognize pain and deep grief of communities that have had a knee on their neck for a long time. we can't lead this moment thinking that we can once again turn away and do nothing. we can't do that this time. we just can't. the moment has come for our nation to deal with systemic racism. we're a nation in pain. we must not let our pain destroy us. >> strong words from joe biden today addressing a nation in crisis, the presidential election is five months away, with cities burning more than 100,000 americans lost to us from a pandemic and 40 million out of work, former vice president needs to show he's meeting the moment and how biden administration would look nothing like what we see now. >> i won't traffic in fear and

division. i won't fan the flames of hate. i'll seek to heal the racial wounds that have long plagued our country, not use them for political gain. >> biden's efforts to speak the language of healing em mri fied even further today in the announcement that he's expected at george floyd's funeral next week in houston. joining us now senior adviser to the biden campaign, our friend karine jean-pierre. congratulations on your new role there on joe biden's campaign. talk to us about the strategy behind the speech and the not so hidden frustration that the campaign has felt that the vice president has had a hard time breaking through in this very crowded news climate. today seemed to be different. >> yes, today you saw a man, a president -- a man that looks like a president, right, a

man -- a man who's ready to lead in this moment like you just said, nicolle, and you know you saw someone who's ready to listen and learn like i said lead. also you saw a man who understands the issues, the policies, who understands that this country needs to start talking about uprooting institutional racism and that's what -- that's what we saw from joe biden today and someone who will never walk into a church -- walk in front of a church and hold a bible, he'll go inside and listen to what people have to say and someone who's not going to use twitter as another way to show leadership, so this is what -- this is what joe biden wanted to do. he wanted to bring the country together in this time of pain and also, call them to action in this moment of pain but also, you know, we have to make sure that we're bringing forth

solutions, bringing forth policies. because that's incredibly important right now. like you said at the beginning we wanted to show contrast, contrast in policies and issues but most importantly, nicolle, in character. >> i mean, the contrast karine -- all he has to do is not gas people. talk about what the policies are, though, karine, i don't think it's any secret to certainly not to you or any viewers of this network's primary coverage, when it looked like joe biden was a long shot for the democratic nominee this year, it was african-americans in south carolina who fueled his rise and his -- a series of stunning and overwhelming victories in bernie sanders and everybody else. so what are those policies? >> one of the things that vice president joe biden did today is

he talked about the history of this country. the original sins of this country. one of them being what we did to indigenous people, we can't forget that and slavery, the 400 years of what that has looked like and that institutional racism which is clearly important and not just talk about it but say what are we going to do to move forward? because this -- this will not go away unless we move forward and also, he understands, yes, the country is pain, so is the black community and we need to talk about how much pain black families are facing. when you understand -- when people can understand or see at least see that these are black bodies, someone's brother, sister, father, mother, who's being killed on these streets, you have to understand that this is the fear and the pain that the black community goes through and so that's the conversation

that we'll continue to have, those are the solutions we'll try to continue to have as well, what do we do? how do we really uproot this institutional racism that we see all around us? not just in the police system but in the economy and housing and health care, one of things that covid-19 is showing the racial disparities and it's how it's being fueled by covid-19. these are the conversations that we need to have that joe biden understands is critical to have. like i said, he'll continue to show the contrasts and not divide us. joe biden will bring us together as a country. >> does the vice president have any plans to join protesters, i know he's going to be at that funeral, any more immediate plans to join protesters later this week, karine?

>> el with, nicolle, i can't talk about the vice president's immediate schedule at the moment. what i can say, he'll continue doing what he's been doing. reaching out. making sure he's speaking in a way that's presidential, that shows leadership, making sure that he's filling that void that's greatly missing in this moment because donald trump refuses to lead and instead what he does he really just inflames and, you know, i say this all the time, especially talking about this moment of pandemic crisis as well, because we're in two pandemics here -- one of them is covid-19. racism existed before covid-19. racism existed before donald trump. the problem with both of them it's made it worse. what donald trump hasn't done, he's not combatted covid-19 in a serious way and he certainly is not combatting racism and joe biden is going to offer up solutions, he's going to talk

about how he's going to bring us together and he's not going to divide us in this moment. >> karine jean-pierre, nice to see you my friend. thank you for spending some time with us today. >> thank you. after the break, conversation about reform. what concrete action is the united states prepared to take, what should it take in order to address the concerns of so many citizens.

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worth repeating, often in the midst of such an important moment american citizens are marching for a reason, they are marring for change, reform. where to start? a complicated question. joining our conversation former senior fbi official and host of the msnbc the oath chuck rosenberg. i want to get you on the record on these extraordinary pictures that we have been watching for

the last hour and half of huge protests, it looks like the largest we have seen on the streets of new york city, huge crowd gathered in houston, los angeles, literally from coast to coast. all these demonstrators demanding change, many of them chanting "i can't breathe." the death of george floyd really crystallizing this moment. your thoughts? >> yes, and i'm sitting here with you when a lot of people talk about this as a tale of two cities, i believe talking about this in terms of tale of two cities doesn't really capture the dynamic here. it's not two groups that have developed differently. it's one country, two different standards, two different sets of rules, and the demonstration of the group empower to suppress

the agency of another. that's what we have seen over the last 400-plus years through a myriad of policies at the local, state and national level. i understand where this anger is coming from and in solidarity with them. >> you know, chuck, i don't know if this will embarrass you but it's worth reminding our viewers that you left the administration, you left the federal government and i dare say, public service is in your bones after donald trump talked about wanting police and secret service to rough up protesters, to treat them badly, physically, and now -- i just wonder your thoughts on a personal level to these demonstrations, all over the country, about the treatm t treatment, by police, of black men and women. >> what happened in minnesota but also what has happened in

kentucky, new york, in so many other places is absolutely sickening. it's reprehensible. so i agree with basel. it's wonderful to see men and women out there exercising their first amendment rights, because something has to change. there's very obviously, nicolle, a fundamental breakdown in our policing system. that's not everywhere. that's not all cops. but there's a fundamental problem that has to change and i don't know how many times we have to see a video like the one we saw in minneapolis to wake up and so what i'm seeing on the screen to me is heartening. >> i want to keep these pictures up, we're talking to chuck rosenberg and basel, both your voices recognizable to viewers. i want to follow up, chuck, how do we begin to do that. obviously, you're right, it's not fair to paint any group with

one brush, but how do we make the changes so that this doesn't happen as often as it seems to happen in america in 2020? >> yes, so, let me start with some math to explain how difficult the problem is. we have 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the united states, some of them quite good, sophisticated, well resourced and abide by proper policies and practices. and others at the very other end of the spectrum, and so, you know, leadership can come from the federal government and it's important. but it's also limited. i mean the feds can provide grants to departments, they can give best practices, they can provide training. they can do pattern and practice investigations. when departments around the country go off the rails and try to bring them back into compliance. but there are 18,000 law

enforcement agencies. . what has to change is the culture of the departments that are performing appropriately and that's a hard thing. imagine a situation in which a good cop in a bad department sees misconduct, what does she do with that? right, does she remain silent, come forward? if she comes foward is she ostracized or rewarded, penalized or shut aside? we have to create a culture in 18,000 law enforcement agencies that reward people for coming forward when they see something that's wrong. that's hard to do. even with good federal leadership which we don't have right now. >> what would good federal leadership look like right now? joe biden gave a speech today. against the backdrop of a deadly pandemic and now very passionate demonstrations on the streets of

most american cities, what would good federal leadership look like in that area? >> it starts with moral leadership, it starts with expressing empathy, it starts with understanding what's at the root of this problem. it's not about self, it's about service, it's about reaching out to others. some component of good federal leadership, frankly some component of good any leadership is empathy and compassion, sympathy and emotional intelligence, things that are frankly and fundamentally missing from this president. we can talk about policy and we can talk about money and we can talk about training, but it starts with leadership and the tone at the top, the tone at the top right now is tone-deaf. >> well, basel, it seems more than tone-deaf, you had the commander in chief standing in rose garden saying words that were totally detached from the actions of federal government,

saying he stood with peaceful protesters while at that moment they were forcefully removing peaceful protesters from lafayette square so the president could wave around a bible like he had never seen before in front of a church, talk about how far we have to go to get to the starting line? >> first of all, i was heartened to see that the bishops of the catholic and episcopal churches pushed back what donald trump was attempting to do there. large pattern or strategy of his to reframe institutions and reframe presidential power, you know we used to think -- violating norms. when you look at it, the attacks on the judiciary, the attacks on the intelligence, law enforcement, governors, mayors, even our election system, this is a pattern of trying to

intimidate voters and intimidate well-meaning individuals that want to speak out in support of good government and restrict the power of people's voices and you know, to add to chuck's point earlier about how complex this is, there are 14,000 school districts in this country, that means 14,000 different places to teach kids, it's teaching what other kids who may grow up to police officers. so if we don't really has a leader that has both the moral character but also understanding of the complexity of our system, you know we'll go through this again. >> right. i could talk to both of you for a long time. please come back. chuck's podcast is back. season 3 of the oath launches

tomorrow. we sits down with former secretary of defense leon panetta. download it. thank you both. after the break -- it seems everybody on the planet saw donald trump's photo-op stunt yesterday, except congressional republicans, they missed it. i don't know how. another example of them turning a blind eye? might spell trouble when it comes to election day. when you shop with wayfair, you spend less

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senator mcconnell, what the president did last night the right thing to do? >> i wasn't there so i didn't see exactly what happened. >> do you think it could be better? >> we all can. every day, i can do better. i try. >> what the president did, the prael peaceful protesters disbursed with tear gas and he then walked across the street to the church. was that the right thing to do? was clearing the protesters an abuse of power? >> i did not think that what we saw last night was [ inaudible ]. >> that was pathetic! near silence from republican senators in what we witnessed yesterday. it's complicit behavior like that from the gop has drawn george hill over the edge. he wrote in his last piece trump as well as his enablers need to be removed. joining us is bill, an advocacy

organizations created by republicans and dedicated to defending america's democracy. bill, i follow you on twitter for a myriad of reasons. i love your observations but i feel your pain. you wrote something today like the pandemic has killed more than 100,000 people, racial tensions are flaming and trump is making them worse. i almost don't know what to say. what are your thoughts on this moment? we have a picture of this very large, very peaceful protest in new york city up on the screen now. >> just on the republican elected officials, it's like they forgotten they do represent american citizens and they have some observation of give us judgment of things the president says. not every little tiny thing but something major like this. the leader of the senate, the main enabler mitch mcconnell i think said tad i'm not going to critique everything other people say. it was just a couple of weeks

ago, wasn't it, that mitchell mcconnell was very upset about uncontroversial things that former president obama said and he should he thought president obama should keep his mouth shut. >> you're right. he told him to keep his mouth shut. let me ask you this question. when did this start? i remember republicans and republican writers like yourself, conservative writers, did not hesitate and did not flinch to kick the you know what out of george h.w. bush, dick cheney, every republican i ever worked for. when did they become zombie enablers of donald trump? >> i think during the campaign they were more critical. once he got elected and they thought they could get the judges they wanted and tax cuts they wanted and the colleagues paid a price. popular in washington. it's been going on on long it's

silly almost complaining about it or talking about. i will saying this will break the back of some people who are supporting trump and force them to come to grips what has really happened. i do think the episode last night with st. john's church with the bible, i got an email early this morning from a friend, a conservative, a real conservative pro life and self-religious not open to the policy agenda i would say of globalism or the democratic party. he would not have voted for trump, i think he had such reservations but i don't think he intended to vote for joe bid biden. he emailed me this morning. he said this did it. one thing to destroy the republican party but to mock the bible that way on the steps of the church, i can't tolerate that, that made me a joe biden voter, my friend. i wonder how much of that there is out there.

sometimes the symbolic things make a difference what we thought might be major policy actions. i do wonder whether last night was something of a moment. it is a powerful anecdote. donald trump always torques it too far, even for his own supporters. so to hear that story from a pro life republican who became a joe biden voter after watching the president turn a bible into a press stunt is, i think you're right, it's something to keep an eye on. bill kristol. thank you for your time. we have up on the screen live pictures of thousands of americans are exercising what is still our right in america, a right to protest, in this case, the death of george floyd. our ongoing coverage continues. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these

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today is a step towards that deconstruction of systemic chris i'mi kr

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