>> a lot is a i broapproaching y do policing, particularly how they interact with minority levels. a big debate at the local level, which we had after the ferguson riot, is how much military hardware is used by police, and how mayors are pushing for less of that and more community policing. >> thank you. i'll be reading axios am in a little while. you can sign up, as well, at sign up.axios.com. that does it for me on this thursday morning. i'm yasmin vossoughian. "morning joe" starts now. we saw churchill inspecting the damage. >> on the landing grounds. we shall fight in the fields. >> george w. bush throwing out the ceremonial first pitch after 9/11. george h. w bush signing the americans with disability acts. >> let the shameful wall of

exclusion finally come tumbling down. >> for this president, it was powerful and important to send a message. >> is that your bible? >> it's a bible. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." willie, i think, it's very good. people are trying to come together. you have community leaders and police trying to come together, religious leaders and political leaders trying to come together, and even at the white house, they're now reading stricripts t are provided to them by "the daily show." it is very nice, they're all -- come on, comparing a guy gassing his own people and beating up cameramen with churchill? it's a little much. >> yeah. i mean, i guess it goes without saying, but we'll say it anyway, that neither churchill nor george w. bush sent gas and

rubber bullets and flashbangs into a peaceful demonstration to clear a path to speak to the people there during the blitz, or to throw that dart of a first pitch that george w. bush threw in october 2001 at yankee stadium. it is a desperate spin that's not going to work with anybody. >> it's a desperate spin that's not working at all. of course, we saw the split screens of churchill and the battle of britain in 1940, when western civilization was on the brink. on the right side, we saw a man who was so enraged by the fact that reporters learned that he went down to secure a room in the white house, as we want our presidents to do, when there was a concern for the safety of the commander in chief. it is a very normal thing and didn't require him beating up americans and bashing in our

australian friends reporters. anyway, we have a lot to talk about toeday. it is thursday, june 4th. we have former aide to george w. bush, to the white house and state departments, elise jordan. we have professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. we have editor in chief of the "atlantic" magazine, jeffrey goldberg. willie, much going on right now. i will tell you, few days ago, former chairman of the joint chiefs did something that a former chairman of the joint chiefs has never done, which is speak out strongly and critically of a sitting commander in chief. mike mullen calling the time we are in, when donald trump is sending troops to beat up americans on the streets of america, called it an inflection point. it certainly is how that's

shaping up now. >> yeah. admiral mullen said, i can no longer remain silent. it's long been the unofficial policy of military leaders not to speak out about a sitting president. the dam has broken on that. we're seeing a number of current and retired senior military leaders now spoking out, either indirect or implied criticism of president trump and his administration's recent actions against protesters. let's start with former secretary of defense, general jim mattis. after more than a year and a half of silence, general mattis writes in a letter posted in the "atlantic," this, quote, i have watched this week's unfolding events angry and appalled. the words equal justice under law are carved in the pediment of the united states supreme court. this is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. it is a wholesome and unifying demand, one that all of us should be able to get behind. general mattis continues, when i joined the military some 50 years ago, i swore an oath to support and defend the

constitution. never did i dream that troops taking the same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the constitutional rights of their fellow citizens, much less to provide a bizarre photo-op for the elected commander in chief, with military leadership standing alongside. general mattis goes on to criticize comments by the current defense secretary, mark esper. he writes, we must reject any thinking of our cities as a battlespace that our uniformed military is called upon to, quote, dominate. at home, we should use our military only when requested to do so on very rare occasions by state governors. militarizing our response as we witnessed in washington, d.c., sets up a conflict, a false conflict between the military and civilian society. general mattis writes, donald trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the american people, does not even pretend to try.

instead, he tries to divide us. we are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. we are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. we can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherit in our civil society. this will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens, to past generations that bled to defend our promise, and to our children. we can come through this trying time stronger and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. we must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our constitution. at the same time, we must remember lincoln's better angels and listen to them as we unite. only by adopting a new path, which means in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals, will we, again, be a country admired and respected at home and abroad. joe, let's remind everyone, it is general james mattis who

served until december 2018 when he resigned as the secretary of defense under president trump. he has been offered chances in the last year and a half to speak out about president trump, has declined those generally, saying it is bad for democracy. but as you can see in the letter he wrote yesterday, the statement he put out, he now believes what he's seeing out of the white house, what he's seeing in the streets is much worse for democracy than not speaking out. >> well, and the united states of america saw one military leader after another step forward and actually speak out about what happened on june 1st. maybe this is an overstatement. maybe this is being melodra melodramatic, but i don't believe so. maybe in the coming years, student who is go to west point and other military academies will look back at the events of june 1st, 2020, and they will

see it to be an inflection point. they will see the examples of military leaders, pbad choices made on one military leader's part after another. a terrible decision made by the secretary of defense, to go, as he said, inspect a facility, a bathroom in lafayette park, when, in fact, he ended up in, as general mattis called it, a bizarre photo-op. so often, especially in the age of donald trump, leaders, thought leaders, political leaders, media leaders, they don't stop and recognize a moment that's happening. pau because we've all been so numbed by the chaos that has been swirling around the white house

and around washington, d.c., since january 20th, 2017. mike mullen recognized that we were at an inflection point on that day, on june 1st. of course, we've seen over the past several days, we've seen an extraordinary memo from the chairman of the joint chiefs, which we will feget to. of course, yesterday, we saw an extraordinary statement from james mattis, a former secretary of defense, with the recognition that, yes, we were at an inflection point. let's bring in a man who has been speaking to general mattis for some time, jeffrey goldberg. who runs the "atlantic." jeffrey, talk about your ongoing discussions with general mattis and why he decided to speak out

yesterday. >> yeah. actually, it starts with mike mullen -- or it starts a year and a half ago, right after general mattis resigned, obviously in protest, if you recall. i've known him for years, and i kept bugging him, you know, and asking him, "hey, when do you want to say something? when do you want to say something?" he believed -- and we talked about this on this show -- he believes that retired military officers, former secretaries and the cabinet shouldn't criticize a sitting president. he was adhering to that, and he was under a lot of criticism for that. on monday morning, i e-mailed mike mullen, who i've known also for a long time, and i asked him, "hey, you want to say anything?" we had a couple exchanges, conversations. couple hours later, he sends me that piece, that article about how he can't remain silent anymore. you know, it was obviously very

well-read piece. i sent it on to jim mattis. i know that jim and mike are friends. jim mattis respects mike mullen. doesn't see him as a kind of show boat or anything. you know, i basically just said to jim mattis, "you know, now? how's now working out?" because i suspected that general mattis would be offended by a couple things by the events of the past week. the first is anything that threatens the esteem civilians have of the military. good military relations are incredibly important to him. another piece is anything that embarrasses the united states in front of our allies and adversaries really gets under his skin. so i knew those two things going in. one thing led to another, and general mattis decided that this was the time to say something. it had gotten sufficiently dire, in his mind, so sort of

following in the wake of admiral mullen, he wrote up this statement. >> you know, willie, it's so interesting. jeffrey talks about general mattis' concern about military/civilian relations. he, like so many other military leaders, who helped build back the united states military's reputation through the years. our soldiers and sailors and marines whose lives have been shaped -- and airmen, whose lives have been shaped by the lessons of vietnam. you know, weinberger in the 1980s. ronald reagan's sec def, wrote the weinberger doctrine that colin powell updated. part of the doctrine said you don't go to war without the support of the american people.

you could see the concern, the misuse of the american military was causing all of these men, for constitutional reasons and also practical reasons. while the support of institutions in washington and across america has collapsed over the past 20 or 30 years, you and i have commented often that the united states military is still the -- still an institution that is held in high, high regard by most americans. >> yeah. maybe the last one that's still held in high disregard by most americans. it's so interesting to hear jeffrey describe how that came to be. i think a lot of us over the last three and a half years had the same experience in private conversations, trying to get interviews or quotes of off the record former members of the military, leaders like this. rolling their eyes at least to president trump, criticizing him more strongly in other ways. to see them on the record, they've all seen too much.

let's hear part of what retired admiral mike mullen, the 17th chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who served under presidents bush and obama, wrote for the "atlantic" earlier in the week that started this. he writes this, it sickened me yesterday to see security personnel, including members of the national guard, forcibly and violently clear a path through lafayette square to accommodate the president's visit outside st. john's church. i have, to date, been hesitant to speak out on issues surrounding president trump's leadership, but we are at an inflection point. the events of the last few weeks have made it impossible to remain silent. whatever trump's goal in conducting his visit, he laid bare his disdain for the rights of peaceful protests, gave suffer to the leaders of other countries who take comfort in our domestic strife, and risked further politicizing the men and women of our armed services. i am less confident in the so d soundness of the orders they'll

be given by this kbhacommander chief. i'm not convinced the conditions on the streets, as bad as they are, has risen to the level that justifies a heavy reliance on military troops. we haven't crossed the threshold to invoke the insurrection act, which president trump threatened to use. furthermore, i'm worried as they execute their orders, the members of our military will be co-opted for political purposes. and this is what the current chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark milley, sent out to top military commanders yesterday. as members of the joint force, comprised of all races, colors, and creeds, you embody the ideals of our constitution. please remind all of our troops and leaders that we will uphold the values of our nation, and operate consistent with national laws and our own high standards of conduct at all times. then in a on the bottom, general milley

wrote, this is america. we will stay true to that oath and to the american people. joe, we're talking about former members of the military, former generals and admirals speaking out. this is coming from inside the administration, not directly critical of president trump, but, elise joren dan, this is t current chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, reminding leaders, reminding the national dpard, guard, reminding his troops of the job and the commitment to the american people. >> the chair of the joint staff was extremely compromised the day prior when he chose to walk across that park that had been cleared by chemical agents, american protesters, the american people, just as secretary of defense mark esper was compromised. everyone who chose to go along. so in retrospect, a dayregrets,

should be. it is absolutely horrifying that we're at this inflection point, where we're even questioning using american troops to practice counterinsurgency across the country. what are we thinking? have we absolutely lost our minds? donald trump has been so protected by the norms that keep ex-generals and ex-officials from speaking out. because of those norms, there hasn't been outcry from the very beginning, as there probably should be, because of the grave danger that donald trump poses to democracy. >> eddie glaude, these three military leaders, one after another, delivering strong statements. former chairman of the joint chiefs, for the first time, being deeply critical of a

sitting commander in chief. then, of course, former secretary of defense, respected general. then the current chairman of the joint chiefs having to write that memo as a reminder to everyone. then writing again, in his own handwriting, "we committed our lives to america, to that oath, and to the american people." an extraordinary few days. certainly, it looks, on the morning of june 4th, three days later, that at least some military leaders were trained well, were trained right, and have recognized the error of their ways, and are reminding their soldiers and sail saylzsa airmen and marines, the first principles of that oath that

they took. >> you know, joe, i've been thinking about these letters in a broader context. i want to pan out for a quick second. in some ways, what we witnessed with donald trump clearing lafayette park for the photo-op was the theater of dictatorial power. he conscripted our military into that theater. we saw some of -- we know what donald trump can do. remember when he deployed troops to the border with his caravan crisis, that manufactured crisis? remember the powerful moment that we talked about on this show wi show, with general mattis telling his soldiers to hold the line, we were under a difficult time. you can draw a straight line from what he said then to the last paragraph willie read a few seconds ago. what we're seeing is a direct challenge, not just holding their oaths, but they see the implication of this theater of dictatorial power and what donald trump is trying to do. it seems to me that now that we

see military leaders doing this, former and current, we need to see civilian leaders, right? folks that are former office holders, former people in the administration, who know donald trump closely, begin to come out and say something more forcefully. because if general mattis recognized it, admiral mullen recognized it, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff recognized it, donald trump's towing with dictatorial power is an immediate danger and threat to our democracy, joe. i'm not trying to be hyperbolic. i'm trying to read what i take to be their response to what we saw the other day. >> and what you saw and what americans saw was, again, donald trump using the united states military to come into american streets. as james mattis said, to use their power and their might and

their reputation to clear out a group of civilians who were peacefully protesting, to set up what james mattis called, quote, a bizarre photo-op. it was a bizarre photo-op. jeffrey goldberg, i want to follow up on what eddie said about civilian leaders speaking out. the "atlantic" over the past several days has had -- published three extraordinary piece. one was admiral mike mullen's letter. the next, yesterday, what we're talking about, of course, james mattis' extraordinary statement. also ann applebaum just wrote one of the most important pieces i've read over the past three years, talking about republicans who have sacrificed their values, their -- whether it's their values, what they claim to believe in church, or what they claim to believe about the

state. she wrote about history judging the complicit. it is, again, one of the most important articles of not only this year, but of this era. >> yeah. >> last night, anne applebaum asked these questions, following up with lindsey. anne had been critical that james mattis had not spoken out. she noted that he had spoken out. then she asks, where is lindsey graham? ex-military lawyer, he has some of the closest ties to the military and rule of law issues in the military. where is mike pompeo, as an active and robust china critic. he surely understands the use of the u.s. military to keep order in central washington, d.c., is not an image that will help rally the world's democracies to fight chinese authoritarianism. where is mike pence? as a believing christian, and the highest ranking american

evangelical, surely he was appalled by trump's use of a church as a backdrop and an unopened bible as a prop for a political statement. ben sasse, republican senator from nebraska, said this, quote, i'm against clearing out peaceful protests for a photo-op that treats the word of god as a political prop. why can't the vice president say the same thing? important questions, not just for today, but, again, for this era. and for the way history will judge the complicit. >> right. and you point out, and i do think everyone should read anne applebaum's piece. one of the things is complicity is the norm. normal human behavior is to go along with the people in power, for whatever reason you go along. she contrasts lindsey graham

with mitt romney quite eloquently in this piece. mitt romney being the example of one of the few republicans not to go readily along here. i think that's the other dam that, i guess, we're waiting to see if it breaks. it's fascinating that it is these retired military people who are doing this before current republican senators. as you point out, lindsey graham, as a military lawyer, understands the consequences of some of the things that donald trump is talking about and is doing. and i think we all know that the story of this era is not donald trump. the story of this era are the people around donald trump, who enable some of the norm-shattering behaviors. he can't do this without the leadership, the republican leadership of the senate. he just can't. he can't do this without the acquiescence of his cabinet,

which is made up of people of great achievement and intelligence. it just can't be done. so that is the -- that is the real issue. the reason this drama has gone on so long is that he has a core of people who are complicit in some of his more norm-breaking decisions. >> we're going to have anne applebaum on the show later to talk more about this piece. elise, we can also add to the list general john allen, the four-star marine general who, yesterday, wrote a piece for "foreign policy" magazine, very critical of the president. he said, monday was awful for the united states and democracy. he commanded american forces in afghanistan and was appointed by president obama to lead the fight against isis. he came out, as well, yesterday. admiral mullen really did kick down the door for former military leaders. i'd also add that over the last couple days, we've heard from all four living presidents who

mostly implicitly, but clearly, criticized the president's conduct and the way that the protesters have been treated in the streets of this country. >> as i said earlier, donald trump really benefitted from the norm that keeps prior leadership from speaking out. the flood dpagait gates have r opened, simply paubecause is situation is so horrible. you look at the scene. anyone who had their tv turned on, waiting for donald trump to come out and give his remarks, got to see the peaceful protesters in our own country, right across from the white house, get mowed down with a chemical agent. the coughing, the vomiting. it was a horrific scene, something that you would expect to see out of a dictatorship. i'm not surprised that so many are speaking out now. i'm surprised that -- almost

that more aren't speaking out, just because the stakes are too high. we've seen what happens when donald trump is given the dignity of prior norms. we've seen how the situation quickly spirals out of control. >> you may see many more now that the door has been opened by the former leaders of the united states military. jeffrey goldberg, thanks so much for bringing us the new piece today from general mattis and also for explaining how we sort of got here, from admiral mullen forward. good to see you. ahead on "morning joe," chuck schumer joins our conversation. first, a panel to break down the charges of the officers involved in the death of george floyd. the other three officers have now been charged, as well. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill... ...can dramatically improve symptoms...

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eddie, here we are now,

almost a week and a half into protests following the tragic killing of george floyd. i ju-- where do you think we ar as a country? there have been, obviously, peaceful marches. there is still some violence. there still may be some looting. it seems that communities and police officers in many cities across the country are starting to come together and figure out how to do this in a way that is -- that is mostly peaceful. what are your thoughts? >> well, i still think we're at a crossroads, joe, about which direction we're going to go. there was a wonderful interview yesterday on this network with shaquille brewster and one of the protesters, a young woman by the name of zoe. she was reflecting on a.g.

ellison's decision to charge the officer with second degree murder. she said, that's a wonderful development, but we will not be satisfied. i will not be satisfied until i can feel safe. she broke down in tears as she talked about not feeling safe. then just today, or yesterday, we saw late last night, the "new york times" was reporting that ellis in dakota, washington, died, was murdered by asphyxiation, and he was saying, "i can't breathe." i think we're still going to see this push from below, joe, as people are trying to change the culture of policing in this country and address the broader issue of racial discrimination and inequality in this country. i think that must stand alongside of what we talked about in the first segment. the theater of dictatorial power had substance to it. we can't lose sight of what donald trump said in the press conference. he invoked nixon of '68. he's the president of law and

order. what that meant, and general mattis picked up on this in his letter, he says that trump sows division. he is going to play that playbook, joe. he'll say to middle america, suburban america, all of what you saw, these folks are coming for your homes, coming for your neighborhoods. we're going to see the partisanship, the divide that we experienced before the pandemic, continue to play its out in the political arena. we need to buckle up. we have more difficult days ahead. >> we've got some polling to show how that strategy exactly is playing out for president trump. we'll get to that in a few minnesota minutes. as eddie mentioned, all officers involved in george floyd's death have been charged. derek chauvin, the man who kneeled on floyd's neck, had his third degree murder charge upgraded to second degree. the three other former officers involved were arrested and charged with aiding and abetting murder in the second degree. that is a felony. here is minnesota attorney general keith ellison speaking

yesterday. >> we are following the path of all of the evidence, wherever it leads. we are investigating as quickly as we can because speed is important. we're also investigating as thoroughly as we can, because being complete and thorough is critically important, but it takes time. the reason thoroughness is important is because every link in the prosecutorial chain must be strong. it needs to be strong because trying this case will not be an easy thing. i say this not because we doubt our resources or our ability. in fact, we're confident in what we're doing. but history does show that there are clear challenges here. >> joining us now, legal analyst for msnbc, maya wiley, and state attorney for palm beach county in florida, dave aronberg. also with us, host of "politics

nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. reverend sharpton will be delivering the eulogy today in a service in minneapolis honoring george floyd. there will be a saturday memorial in north carolina, where floyd was born, and a funeral on tuesday in houston where george floyd was raised. maya, i want to start with you specifically on these charges being upgraded for officers chauvin from third degree to second degree murder. what is the distinction there? >> well, let's start with the distinction that many demonstrators and the family are interested in, which is possible 40 years versus 25. so it is a significantly more serious charge in terms of what officer chauvin will face if convi convicted. i think the second thing to understand here that's so important is it sends the right legal message to police officers, that the actions, the

conduct that we saw from officer chauvin can't just be thrown up to, "i didn't mean it." legally speaking, the third degree murder charge is, you know, it was completely unintentional. while it was terrible, it was depraved, it was depraved indifference for human life. you know, at the second degree level, there is more of an intent element. the intent here, just to be clear, is not planning a murder out in advance. the intent here, and in particular, the importance in this case, is aggravated assault. not planning out the murder in advance but, nonetheless, it rising to a level of conduct that is so serious that it deserves the second most serious murder charge there is on the books in the state of minnesota. >> maya, i'm interested in your view on something i've heard from a lot of people, mostly people who are sympathetic to

attorney general ellison and want to see charges and a conviction for officer chauvin. that's the idea of overcharging. if you elevate it to second degree, you give wiggle room for a jury to acquit. is that a concern for you at all? >> well, look, these -- the thing about these cases, bringing criminal charges against police officers, is they're far too rare. juries have been very, very, very difficult to extract convictions from, even with very, very strong evidence. because people want to believe the police. they want to belief that their intentions are good. they believe that they tell the truth. the problem for us as a nation is that means people don't believe their lying eyes. in this case, the video is very powerful. it is very strong. it is one of the reasons that we have seen police officers,

chiefs of police, come out and publicly denounce this. that's rare in this country. it is very rare. it is because of the evidence. that doesn't mean there is not risk, but remember that one of the things that happens in the process is there are lesser charges so that the jury can opt to convict on a lesser charge if it goes in that direction. but i think that the attorney general did absolutely what was legally mandated in this case, based on the evidence before us. anything less, anything less would have only reinforced, both for plaque americanblack americ americans of all races, that justice is not as blind as it needs to be. because it sees blue, and it treats it differently. >> dave aronberg, you've prosecuted these types of cases. why are they so difficult to earn convictions? >> joe, juries have a healthy

respect for the law enforcement profession, and they don't generally like to convict cops of such serious offenses. but it's more than that. it is also the fact that the law gives a lot of deference to police officers in the line of duty. you can't monday morning quarterback, according to law, their decision making. you've got to put yourselves in their shoes, at the time of the incide incident. you have to look through their eyes, through the prism of reasonableness. that's the key. that's why body cameras and the video here, in the george floyd, can be so powerful. because it can expose a lack of reasonableness. it can expose reckless conduct. it can expose intentional misconduct. it can expose a depraved mind. we had a case last year that received national attention, the case of krcory jones. subject of a super bowl ad where a black motorist was killed on the side of the road. the police officer lied to us. the way we found out was because

cory jones was on the phone with roadside assistance, which recorded his murder. that's why we were able to get a conviction and 25 years in prison for this officer. without that recording, there were only two people there that night, and one is dead. we probably would not have been able to do justice for cory. >> yeah. so, reverend al, how important is it, how important of a message is being sent to not only police officers, but to civilians across america, when they see the killing of an innocent black man could lead to what would amount to a life sentence, 40 years in prison? i say this after you and i have talked far too often about, you know, whether it's about trayvon martin, a -- killed by a

civilian and acquitted, or so many of these incidents, where, you know, as you always say, you look at the video, and it looks like homicide, then the cops basically say -- the bad cops basically say, "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" all too often, it seems that juries refuse to believe what they've seen. >> i think it is important, not only to punish the officer that has broken the law, but to affirm to the public that no one is above the law. it is important that we make it clear in this country that you will pay the price if you break the law, no matter who you are. and i think that, clearly, by these charges, it gives us the

opening for that. the other thing i want to raise, and i've talked to the family last night preparing to do the eulogy today, i spoke at cory jones' funeral in florida that was referred to by prosecutor aronberg. i spoke at michael brown's funeral and eric garner's funeral. i did the eulogies. it did not result as cory jones' did in convictions. it can go either way. another thing that's interesting is i think that part of what we see open up here, joe, by inviting all -- i was very much involved in the admiral case where you have multiple police indicted and charged. the prosecutor usually tries to pressure one to become a witness on the others, particularly when you have video tape evidence there, and say, "you're going down anyway. you can help yourself."

you have the possibility now, with four defendants, of have happening what happened in the case which convicted the main assa assailant, that one of the policeman testified against his partners. that could happen here, given how graphic and clear this video tape is. >> rev, i'm struck listening to you list all the eulogies you've spoken at in recent years. far too many. you're preparing to speak at another memorial service. this one for george floyd. the list is so long, and i think that every time one of these things happens, we all stop and say, "something has to change here." maybe it does on the margins. maybe it does in that department. but do you feel like given what we're seeing in the streets right now, given the outcry we're seeing from the american people, that something bigger happens now? is this a bigger moment maybe than we've seen in the past? if so, what does that mean? what does that look like? how do things change?

>> out of all the years that i've been marching and protesting and doing eulogies and speeches, i'm more hopeful going to this service than i have been in a long time. because i've seen more americans of different races and of different ages standing up together, marching together, raising their voices together. even standing in front of the white house, getting tear gassed. that's only half the story. they came back the next day. that makes me know that we're on the brink of real change. because it takes sometimes years of investing wi, that lot of us did, before we see the return, that it was not for nothing. and i believe that we're at a turning point here. that's what my eulogy will be about this morning. clearly, joe and i are older baptists, and there is an expression we repeat all the time, weeping may endure for a

night, but joy is coming in the morning. if we can just hold out, not give in to brick throwing, not give in to divisiveness, i can see the sun beginning to rise on a new day of policing, which would be good for everyone, including police. >> and all the people said, amen. thank you so much, rev. we greatly appreciate it, as always. thank you for all you're doing for the floyd family. i know it means so much to them. maya, let me ask you, follow up on this moment that we're in. reverend al and i have talked over the past decade, when cases like this have come up, when black men are shot in the back, as they're trying to peacefully -- not peacefully -- but trying to run away from police officers. the north charleston case. or what happened, actually, in minneapolis before. of course, all the discussion

that came out after ferguson. over the past decade, especially since a lot of this has been picked up on camera phones, we've talked about the need of body cams for all police officers. we've talked about prosecutors that are independent of local law enforcement operations. obviously, the local prosecutor has to work with law enforcement officers, and there's just a closeness that may challenge independence. but i'm wondering, and here we are in 2020, maya, and you know this so well because you've worked on the inside, what reforms in 2020 do we need to push forward to make sure we're not talking about this in 2025 and 2030? >> that's an important question. frankly, there is a very long

list. one of the things that we're hearing from advocates, which i think is dead on, is we have to change the rules of engagement. representative hakeem jeffries from here in new york, at the request of al sharpton and the family of eric garner, introduced in 2015 a chokehold ban, to make it a federal civil rights violation. that is one of the steps new york city is now looking at, corr criminalizing chokeholds. take away the discretion to engage in dangerous behavior, behavior that is dangerous to the lives of people that the police have come in contact with. but the other thing is that we are hearing are requests that really go to the core of what policing is in america. you know, one of the things that has not shifted in this country is that, as we've watched crime drop 70% over the last two decades -- and i am talking

about violent crime -- we have not seen a shift in what policing is and how it's done. police are still out here acting as if we're in a war zone, when we have had the lowest crime rates we've had in 30 years. what people and particularly demonstrators are asking for is more resources to solve the underlying conditions that are creating problems in low-income communi communities, in particular, and also more accountability and oversight of police when they engage in misconduct by departments themselves. so not just shifting the training. ensuring that there's actual discipline when there are violations. because what we know from social science is you want to change the attitudes, you also have to change the behavior first. you change the behavior by creating consequences for bad behavior. and, you know, the only last point i want to make about this

that is so important is you have to do it because the culture has to shift within the departments. there is a phrase in the new york city police department, that better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. when we see these images, like we saw last night, of police officers using batons on peaceful protesters, it's because there is a culture that says, our means can be violent because we need to protect ourselves from them. it's that us/them that has to be broken down. we're not in those times anymore. that culture only shifts when the rules of engagement change. the proposals are many, including the fact that police need to be problem-solvers, not aggressors. >> we'll see if any of those changes are implemented and if

your suggestions are born out. maya wiley and dave aronberg, thank you both for your perspective. let's turn to u.s. national editor at the "financial times," ed luce, who is asking in his latest op-ed, out moments ago, how things could go so very wrong in america. he writes, the cue is to view these through the lenses of reality television. mr. trump wants people to believe the white house is threatened by thugs, looters, and killers, words he's used frequently in the last few days. u.s. stability is under threat, he claims. the president's life and those of decent law-abiding americans are threatened by those on the streets. that's the gist of mr. trump's message. it requires a backdrop, the hyped up situation in washington. a sober assessment is that mr. trump's poll numbers are dropping. he is faced with triple cocktail of a badly managed pandemic, the worst economic contraction since the great depression, and an inability to quell the legitimate anger behind

america's demonstrations. theesz are the acti these are the actions and inactions of someone with little interest in gorch iverning. mr. trump has a burning desire to be faced by a choice of american democracy or staying out of courtrooms, i have no doubt where mr. trump's instincts would lie. ed luce, we've heard warnings from former generals and admirals in the military, that things are beginning to go wrong. what do you see as the next step if things continue in this direction? >> well, those warnings from mattis, the memo from milley, joint chiefs of staff, mark esper pushing back on trump invoking the insurrection act, all these are good signs that the pentagon is fully aware of what the president is capable of doing and are pushing back and

laying down markers. that's the good news. the bad news is also good news, which is that trump's polls are cratering. but that's the source, really, of the danger, which is that he sees, unlike any other president in american history, he sees this as a choice between him being re-elected or him being dragged through the courts and possibly ending up in jail with the dismantlement of the trump organization, et cetera. so his back is very much to the wall. he has no idea how to speak to the protests. he has no idea how to unify the nation. he has no idea how to handle the aftermath of george floyd's k l killing. he has no idea how to handle this pandemic. therefore, to get an economy recovering at a decent clip. none of the three great challenges that he's facing are ones he has any real ability or

interest in addressing, in a sensible way that other presidents might do. so what will trump do? well, he wants a dramatic visual back dr backdrop. he's tweeted "law and order" four times in the last five days, and "silent majority" a couple of times. somebody has given him a little history of the nixon '68 campaign. that's his re-election platform. that is a very, very dangerous path to be going on because he needs there to be conflict in the streets to justify him being the safe guy. >> of course, the problem is, in 1968, for that analogy to work, richard nixon would have had to be the incumbent. it was lyndon johnson's america. those images were cast on the shoulder of lynn sdon johnson a

his vice president, humphrey. elise jordan is with us, and she has a question for you. >> ed, i don't disagree with your description of how dire the stakes are for american democracy and the troubling numbers that donald trump is seeing, that only increase his panic and his irritability, and just unpredictability. what needs to happen now, and who do you see as the voices who need to be speaking out? >> i think very strongly -- i mean, you had this on msnbc yesterday -- it has to be senior elected republicans. not just governors. we've seen some governors speak out. we need senators to speak out. i'm not with those who think the "new york times" shouldn't run op-eds by people like tom cotton. i abhor his recommendation, that you treat american cities like

baghdad, with low-flying helicopters and flood it with paratroopers. but there are other republican senators who are keeping silent because they know that what trump is doing, what trump is suggesting, is wrong. they're scared of a backlash if they speak out. they're the ones who want to follow jim mattis' lead, who ought to follow mike mullen's lead, and to some extent, secretary esper's lead. they need to speak out. it is his party. ultimately, they are enabling him. you know, i don't think the threat of this situation can be overstated. trump has his back to the wall. he will do lots of things to try and prevent his defeat. >> ed, do you not think -- even though the poll data -- this is eddie glaude. even though the poll data suggests that, i mean, he is diving, do you not think the playbook still has some work,

still has utility? he is playing the law and order game. he is appealing to his base. do you not think that that is going to work with them, in some ways, and that it will have an implication for the body politic, if you understand what i'm suggesting? >> i do understand what you're suggesting. and i agree. i think his base, for some of his base, this is red meat. he is going to have 37% or 38% of americans, come what may. if you look at the poll numbers, and not just regionally, in places like texas and florida and arizona, you know, where he is continuing to fall, where he is now neck and neck -- where biden is neck and neck with him, but also within the republican party, large, large minority republicans strongly support these protests and support the continuing lockdown. now, these go directly against two things that trump is really pushing for, the lifting of the

lockdown and the racial polarization, the sort of panic element of these mostly peaceful protests. so if you're lousing a significant chunk of republicans, and particularly older ones, people over 65, then i think, you know -- i lived in many democracies, including america. i've lived in many democracies. i know a dying administration when i see one. >> all right. ed luce, thank you so much for being with us, as always. greatly appreciate it. still ahead, after years of offe offending, president trump now gets defensive. the "washington post"'s eugene scott joins us with hissa agnals of the president's legacy. plus, valerie jarrett will weigh in on what we heard yesterday from the former president. also, a lot of polls came out yesterday, national and state

polls, all pointing in the same direction. "morning joe" back in a moment.

when donald trump came out of hiding this week, he didn't do it to bring us together or heal the nation. he wasn't there to offer words of calm and comfort. instead, he became what we always feared.

evoked the worst of our past. threatened our governors and states. he ordered our own soldiers, who fought in iraq and afghanistan, to flood the streets, instructing them to turn against americans. used churches and the holy bible as political props. he didn't invoke the lord to give us wisdom, but to boost his polls. ordered an attack on unarmed protesters, using gas, rubber bullets, and flash grenades. washington transformed into a war zone for this coward. this is a time for choosing. america or trump. the forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. we are one nation, and their pain is our pain. >> president trump tweeting, "when the looting starts, the shooting starts."

>> their dreams are our dreams. >> unemployment rate past 40,000, the largest since the depression era. >> when you put somebody in the car, i said, please don't be too nice. i will fight for you with every breath in my body. >> please. >> there is a chance it won't spread within a couple days. it'll be close to zero. this american carnage stops right here and stops right now. that's a pair of new ads, not from democrats but from republicans and conservatives who say they've had enough. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, june 4th. with us, we have former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. also nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of

"kasie d.c." on msnbc, kasie hunt. along with willie and me. mika has the morning off. we talked a few minutes ago, willie, about a lot of polls that came out yesterday. state polls in swing states, a senate poll that shows a republican incumbent in a red state down 13 points. other polls showing the president down over ten points in a national poll. that's the second in a few days that way. a lot of fox news polls that came out showing the president not doing well in states he has to win. with that as a backdrop, obviously, we have, as was said earlier today, we've got donald trump, who is going to be defending his response to a

pandemic, the worst pandemic in a century. an economic collapse. of course, protests in the street. violence in the street. the president of the united states, from the very beginning, saying things that only fanned the flames. now, of course, the most respected military leaders in america coming out, speaking out against donald trump and aga. and against that backdrop, we had another night of marches and protests and some violence last night. >> yeah. president trump tweeting this morning again, in all caps, about law and order. this on a week and last couple days that have seen military leaders, including his former secretary of defense, james mattis, and all four living presidents coming out with criticisms, either direct or implic implicit, of president trump. as you said last night and yesterday, thousands of americans came out for a ninth

straight day of protests. protesters in minneapolis chanted "we got all four," after the announcement of additional charges against the police officers involved in the death of george floyd two mondays ago. there were huge crowds in seattle. you can see protesters on the front lines, holding umbrellas to guard against possible tear gas or pepper spray. reminiscent of the hong kong protests of last year. in washington, military vehicles served as a backdrop for the protests near the white house, as demonstrators faced off with armed troops. on capitol hill, protesters laid face down for nine minutes, the approximate duration of time that officer chauvin kneeled on the neck on george floyd. and this was one scene in new york city. >> go home! just go. go home! >> the nypd getting physical with protesters in brooklyn, as

those protesters and the police enforced the city's 8:00 p.m. curfew. also, in what is being described by the nypd as an unprovoked attack, a new york city police officer was stabbed in the neck. two other officers were shot on the scene at around 11:45 p.m. in the flat bush neighborhood of brooklyn. all three police officers were hospitalized but are expected to recover. that's good news. the unidentified suspect was shot eight times and now is in the hospital in critical condition. police still are putting together what happened. 22 shell casings were found at the scene. body camera video shows a chaotic, rapid situation, according to the nypd. police commissioner mcshay hosted a press conference earlier this morning and called the event a completely cowardly, depickable, unprovoked attack on a defenseless police officer, and thank god we're not planning a funeral right now, said the police commissioner. joe, these are the moments, the

terrible, ugly moments that the president is seizing on. we've said many times that it is possible to hold two thoughts in your head. attacks like this are reprehensible. the breaking and robbing of stores and stealing and looting and all those things should be prosecuted. but the president is focusing only on that and not on the pain for a week and a half now by the african-americans in the country, about not just what happened with george floyd, but what has been happening for generations in this country. >> yeah. you can look. obviously, on both sides of those befoarricades, you can lo and see what's been happening the past week. see the overwhelming majority of people in the streets are peaceful protesters who want to move america toward a more perfect union. you can also see on the other side of that line police

officers. understand the overwhelming majority of those policemen, policewomen, law enforcement officers are doing their job because they believe that their chief responsibility is to protect and serve people in their jurisdiction. so it's been an extraordinary challenge for people on both sides of the line. i believe, and i think history will prove me to be correct, that on both sides of the line, the overwhelming majority of those people, police officers and protesters, want the same thing. a peaceful america. a just america. an america that moves towards its idea of being a more perfect union. so it's in times like these, michael steele, when we do need

a president that can look at people on both sides of an extraordinarily challenging moment, and work every day to bring them together, to use the bully pulpit to unite and not divide. but as general james mattis has said, we, instead, seem to have a president who is focused only on dividing americans using whatever conflict he can to actually pull those two sides further apart. because he considers that to be a political benefit for him. >> absolutely. good morning, joe and willie, by the way. joe, you laid out at the top of this conversation the trifecta. covid, the economy, and now civic unrest. that combination touches on three things, three tests of

leadership that donald trump has not been able to meet. that is his problem. that's the lashing out. that's the law and order. trying to create a different narrative. because the narrative on covid is not one of a president in command. the narrative on the economy is not one of a president who has been able to put the tools in place to support that downward trend that could turn things around. the narrative of civic unrest, which really goes to the heart of leadership, shows an inability to lead, an inability to bring the people of the country together. so that's now being reflected in the polling. it's early. we know we're still four, five months away from an election. a lot of water will go under that election bridge. but the reality of it is, the conversation is now getting set with the american people. so the president is now trying to create a new image, trying to

give them a new visual, this of the strong man. i'm in charge. he said it at his inaugural, only i can fix this. what we're now seeing is, no, you can't. you don't have the capacity to do that. so the american people, whether they were strong supporters of trump or not, are now beginning to step back and trying to contextualize this leadership in light of what we see on our streets, in light of what we felt in our neighborhoods and communities as a result of businesses closing and people losing their jobs, and in light of our own health, in how the president has responded. and the numbers are not good. >> hey, kasie, we played that remarkable bit of sound yesterday that you gathered two days ago on capitol hill, of senators rushing past you when you asked for their opinions of what happened in lafayette square a couple of days ago. most of them said they were late to lunch. did that change at all yesterday

in your interviews and attempts to get comment? are there any republicans that have spoken out since? >> willie, i did hear from a couple of folks who i talked to yesterday, and one thing that i do think that people are dividing into two camps here. senator ron portman of ohio, for example, was on camera saying he was late to lunch. if you've ever worked with senator portman, he is somebody who values politeness and, you know, a lot of the values that we used to ascribe to the republican party. i heard from his office, they pointed out that he had told ohio reporters that he had serious concerns about what happened with the president, the type of leadership that the president was offering. so i certainly think that there is reflecting going on. you know, i think joe underscored this yesterday, as well, that we did hear from more republicans than we have in many other instances, when this president has broken norms or done something that seems

outside, you know, out of bounds. we heard from ben sasse. we heard from some others saying, "hey, this crossed a line. this is too much." so, you know, i do think they are grappling with it, but, you know, the reality here, i think, is that -- and joe pointed this out, as well, and you did, as well, willie -- that ben sasse no longer has a primary challenge. suddenly feels freer to talk. you know, the underlying reality that republicans have decided that they are going to stick with this president to the end because their own political hides are tied to his fate still remains true. you know, they're watching these numbers. they are reading these polls right along with the rest of us. mitch mcconnell has the senate in session, in the pandemic, to try to confirm as many judges as possible. what's the pressure? the time pressure is that in november, he could lose control of the senate and, therefore, lose the ability to do that. i think that reality is getting more and more real by the day,

as they look around and realize that what this president is doing is not, as with can se ca the numbers, is not being backed up by americans. they made, you know -- we have said this over and over again, this is the bargain they made. now, they have to live with it. >> you know, at some point, if you've made a bad bargain, it seems to me you move away from it. you look at 2017. look at the route in virginia. look at the women voters that stood in the rain for hours because they were going to send a message to donald trump. you look at 2018, a historic landslide in the house of representatives, in the people's house. republicans losing by a historic number of votes. when i say historic, i'm not talking about over the past 20 years, i'm talking about in the history of this great republic. now, you look at polling numbers. what good is it doing republicans to follow donald

trump's playbook? we're going to show you polls in a minute. one from a fox news poll from arizona. you have a sitting u.s. senator that decided she was going to go full trump. she was going to yell at a respected reporter, scream, and use it as a fundraising stunt. who has refused to criticize donald trump, as he has breached political norms, breached constitutional norms, breached military norms. she's down 13 points. 13 points. you can look at a senator in colorado who is way behind. a senator in maine who is losing. a senator in north carolina who is fighting for his life. a senator in montana. all republican incumbents who are endangered politicians. what bargain did they make that is worth following this man over the cliff? who, right now, in early june, is on his way to losing in a

landslide of his own? again, yes, it's early. it's just -- it's just a moment in time. this is just -- these polls that we're going to show you in a minute are just a snapshot of where we are at the beginning of june. things can change. but if they do change, it will be the first time in almost four years that elections have broken donald trump's way. the last election to break donald trump's way in a significant way was when he won in november of 2016. but voters have been repulsed by his leadership. voters have been repulsed by his racism. voters have been repulsed by the breaching of constitutional norms. voters have been repulsed by his attacks on the independent federal judiciary. so have a lot of conservative judges, by the way. voters have been repulsed by his breach on political norms.

voters have been repulsed by the fact that he completely ignored a pandemic that everybody was warning him about inside his own white house, including a trade representative that warned him at the end of january, that 500,000 people could die. about that same time, he was saying it was just one person coming in from china. then, of course, we move to an economic crisis that was going to happen regardless, because of the recklessness and irresponsibility of the chinese government, that totalitarian state. at the same time, president of the united states had a duty to mitigate, to make things better for small business owners, to make things better for workers, to make things p s better for b americans. now many of whom now are adults and out of work. he failed in the duty to mitigate this economic crisis, and it's now turned into one of the great economic crises over

the past 50 years, 60 years, 70 years. now, of course, we have unrest in the streets. the president, once again, trying to divide instead of unite americans, according to his former secretary of defense, general mattis. he has his current secretary of defense saying he opposes the president's attempts to militarize the streets of america. and to look at american civilians, american citizens, as opponents in a, quote, battle zone. yeah, that's not somebody you want to follow over the cliff politically. let's bring in now from the white house, senior white house reporter for nbc news digital, shannon pettypiece. shannon, i'm curious, any response this morning to the current chairman of the joint chiefs, to the current secretary of defense, to the former secretary of defense for donald trump, and also the former chairman of the joint chiefs,

all issuing extraordinary rebukes of the president over the past 48 hours? >> reporter: well, the public response from the president has been dozens of rather disjointed tweets and retweets about a mix of topics, some culture war issues, some russia investigation issues, but really sort of a nonstop drum beat of treat tweets and retweets without a clear message behind them. behind the scenes, the white house has gone from congratulatory, which was the mood i talked with you guys about on tuesday morning, when they thought the church visit went really great and projected this image of strength, to where we are now, which is just pretty direct defiance and on the defense. yesterday, those comments by esper, i was told by one administration official, were not well received, which is a diplomatic way to say they had a lot of open-jawed and shocked

white house officials, to see those remarks coming from the defense secretary, who said the president -- or who essentially contradicted the president, saying this insurrection act was not something he felt was appropriate to be used at this time. the comments on mattis, i have been told before that administration officials were anticipating mattis to come out at one point and more directly criticize the president. i don't think that was a huge surprise. the president had a pretty, you know, well-drafted tweet that he sent out, just attacking mattis and trying to belittle him, was his response to that. but a memo that has now been made public this morning, or late last night, from the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, ma milley. another case where you have not just formers but someone who is currently in the administration essentially speaking out against the president's actions, even if not in a direct way. this memo sent from milley to some of the top military

commanders talked about upholding the oath of the constitution, and how n, in a handwritten note, they'd dedicated their lives to the idea that he is america. he wrote, "we will try to do that and uphold it for those people." so that, another thing that has come out, another avalanche of criticism coming out from military officials here. >> yeah. the president's tweet about james mattis, he said he fired mattis. we should point out that general mattis resigned in 2018, december. he also claimed he gave general mattis the nickname, "mad dog," which he did not. i digress. shannon, let me ask you about what the people around -- you're writing this morning about what the people around the president are suggesting he does right now. there are some people close to him who think he should tone down his rhetoric. he should give a speech. he should try to heal the country. frankly, what would that look like exactly?

what impact would an oval office address or some grand speech about race in america frrks t, s president, mean to most americans? >> reporter: over the weekend, there were these two camps in the white house. one arguing what you were saying, willie, give a formal address. talk about the underlying issues about racism, socio-economic issues. that camp clearly lost out, if you look at the president's actions this week. in the rose garden address, talking about sending in the myr military. and not using the rose garden to talk about police violence or social injustice. we have not heard from the president publicly since monday. we've actually barely seen him, except for a visit to a church on tuesday. we're not scheduled to hear from him today. he's supposed to visit a swab manufacturing plant in maine tomorrow. a visit that was once intended to be this way of highlighting his response to the coronavirus. we've really not heard from the

president publicly. reporters haven't even had a chance to talk to him on saturday. i think that's the next step to look for here, is to try to see how is the president going to address this publicly? at least on the twitter, it continues to be defiance, defiance, defiance, and looking to highlight more divisive issues. >> all right. shannon pettypiece outside the white house for us this morning. shannon, thanks so much. let's walk through some of the polling that joe was talking about a minute ago. in the newest monmouth university national poll, joe biden holds an 11-point lead over president trump. 52% to 41%. vice president biden continues to do well among key voting groups, including voters 65 and older and women. the president leads among voters 50 to 64 years old, as well as with white voters without a college degree. joe biden also leads president trump in the key battleground states of wisconsin, ohio, and arizona, all states the president won in 2016. according to new polls from fox

news, biden is up nine points in wisconsin, 49% to 40%. in ohio, biden narrowly leads by two points, 45% to 43%. that's within the margin of error. they are tied there. in arizona, similar story, where biden is up four points, 46% to 42%. in this state's senate race, democrat mark kelly is now leading republican incumbent senator martha mcsally, 50% to 37%. a 13-point spread according to fox news. things also getting close in texas, according to the latest quinnipiac poll. only one point separates the contenders. donald trump up 44%. joe biden at 43%. they are tied right now in the state of texas. you'll remember that donald trump won texas in 2016 by ten points. this, joe, these polls we walked through, combined with others, is why you're seeing reports of people being concerned when they

look at the map around president trump. >> well, they have a reason to be concerned. willie, it is very interesting that richard haass, early in this pandemic, had a great insight. the insight was that the pandemic is not going to change history, it is going to accelerate history. people who have studied polls and politics for years have said, rightly, that three states in the sun belt were going to shift and become more blue over time. they were going to go from reliably red states to purple states to blue states. those three states, georgia, texas, and arizona. now, none of us, three, four months ago, actually thought that those three states were possibilities for a democratic pickup. but you look at the pandemic. you look at the protests. you look at the economic

problems. we're starting to see fault lines already in 2020 instead of 2024, when, you know, i'm expecting in 2024 that those states are going to be like virginia and are going to at least be purple. as we go into a 2024 race, just because of demographics in texas, demographics in arizona especially. but we're having an acceleration of this political process. you're now seeing donald trump, instead of fighting in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and florida, and assuming that florida is going to be an easier win for him, which many republicans expected, now, he's losing in those states. most polls show him -- this fox news poll shows him losing by nine in wisconsin. i personally think that's outside -- a little bit outside

of -- an outlier. but you look at wisconsin. you look at michigan. you look at pennsylvania. you look at florida. i think most people right now would put all of those states lean democrat, based on the polls. suddenly, we're talking about georgia, which is basically a draw, according to some recent polls. texas, which we now, i think, have had three polls in the last month that showed that state to be the margin of error. then you've got arizona, same thing happening there, willie, where donald trump is now down four points in this fox news poll. he is down in most florida polls that you see. he is starting to really bleed support in the solid south, in the solid sun belt. there's so many reasons for this. we've been talking about it over the past couple weeks. if you're the trump campaign, you can't try to expand the map.

as i think john heilemann said a couple weeks ago, they were placing ads in iowa. they were placing ads in the panhandle of florida. so that's what -- at least at the beginning of june, instead of looking to expand the map, they're just trying to hold on to georgia, texas, arizona, florida, states that should comfortably be in donald trump's marg margin, column right now. >> we'll remind people that president trump doesn't have much of a margin of error to work with. he lost the popular vote in 2016. won by a handful of votes in michigan, handful of votes in wisconsin. he had no margin of error to work with there if he wants to be re-elected. now, he's having to not only win those states but cover his flank in places he thought he could chalk up, like georgia, texas, and arizona. michael steele, if you were in your old job, put that hat on,

running the republican national committee, what would you think as you look at the map, at the polls, for not just president trump but incumbent republican senators like mcsally? >> i would be concerned about my down ballot. i would be very concerned about governor races. i'd be concerned about state legislative races. if you have the kind of surge from the grassroots across the country, particularly among independent, center-right, center-left individuals, that now begins to have an impact on what your state legislative campaigns will run into. that particular buzzsaw could be very damaging. as one of the silent weapons that we used in 2010 was focusing on those state legislative races. we were looking at an energy push from the bottom up. sort of help us win governorships and things like

that. you now have the problem where you've got the top of the ticket that could be a drag on those races that are on the margins. you know, where you're holding the state legislature by three seats, or you have the potential to pick up the legislature by six seats. now the races take on a different complexion. so the party is going to be coordinating as closely as it can with the campaigns at the grassroots level. governors races, county executive races, and the like, to try to hold on to some of the seats. >> all right. let's bring in right now the top-ranking democrat in the u.s. senate, minority leader chuck schumer of new york. senator schumer, let's start with what's happening in your hometown, what's happening in new york city. new york, for years, has had people going out in the streets. they've been protesting

peacefully. i remember talking to reverend al sharpton after the eric garner -- i call it a murder. there were huge protests but peaceful protests. now, you have the governor and the mayor of new york city trading ba trading barbs with each other. the governor of new york talking about how horribly managed the situation has been. tell me, what's going on in new york city? why are we seeing other cities move toward peace and new york city continue to be as tumultuous as it is? >> well, i think things are improving over the last day or two in new york. i'm going to defer to the mayor and governor as to how to use the resources, the many resources at their command. i'm not sitting at their side to know that. i will tell you this, the overwhelming majority of protesters in new york, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, are peaceful protesters. as you said, joe, this is a

great tradition of new york. often, new york is the conscience of the nation. we lead the country to realize our faults and to try and change them. and i think that -- i am proud that so many young people are out there. we've said over and over again, the greatest worry we have about the young people is that they're apathetic. now, they're not apathetic. they're looking at what is the poison of america, which has been racism and racial division, which has been with us for centuries, and saying, we must change it. they're not just doing it a day or two. they keep doing it day after day after day. the overwhelming majority peaceful. the violence has to be condemned and punished. donald trump is the person who wants us to think the protesters are all violent. that's why he has to fire rubber bullets at families in lafayette park. donald trump wants us to believe that every protester is a danger. in fact, our country is a nation of protests. the patriots were protesters.

created our country because of it. i think that i'm proud of new york. i'm proud of the protests. and i think it is part of the tradition of new york. the violence is bad, reprehensible, should be condemned, but it is not the overwhelming picture in new york. >> senator schumer, willie geist. good to see you. >> hi, willie. >> you mentioned the incidents in lafayette park. you came out quickly and denounced that, as did others. but yesterday, we heard from someone perhaps we didn't expect to hear from, general mattis. the former secretary of defense under president trump, who called that moment an abuse of executive authority, with troops going in and clearing that park. he also said, of the man he used to serve, president trump tries to divide us and doesn't even pretend that he is trying to unite us. what did you make of the criticism from general mattis? >> i thought it was amazing. i know general mattis. he's very reluctant to do this. but i think he was doing two things. one, he was sending a shot

across the bow to the military leaders. don't let this president, who would try to be as dictatorial as he could be, use you. don't do that. because that's not the tradition of the military. the tradition of the military is to protect our freedoms. freedom of speech. free tdom of assembly. freedom to protest. freedom of religion. second, he was saying to the military and all of america, to everyone in america, the protesters are part of what we should be proud of in america. we need change. his condemnation of president trump was right on the money, at a time when so many americans, and we're not just talking about any political party or region, but the vast majority of americans are longing for somebody to bring us together. to do what george bush, for instance, did on the pile. i stood with him there after 9/11. instead, we have a president who delights in dividing us, who loves throwing matches on the

c confilgration. who loves when there is any time for a need for unity to do division. that is not what americans want. i'll tell you, this president is such a failure. one more point, willie, if i might, where are our senate republicans? we put a resolution on the floor of the senate, no rhetoric, very few add jek tijectives or adver mr. you said, we protect the right of peaceful protest. we condemn what mr. trump did monday night. mit mcconnell went to the floor to block it. some who might have sway over him are senate republicans. whether on this or doing a robust covid bill, which would help deal with the economic inequalities that people of color face, we see them not doing anything. last week, mcconnell, a few days ago, when listing what we should do this month, he didn't even talk about covid. didn't even talk about the heros

bill. they're derelict in their responsibilities. we need them now more than ever, like we good general mattis and admiral mullen. to stand up to a president who is a would-be dictator. he knows no limits. he only knows limits when people put things in his way. mattis put a pibig, symbolic barrier in his way and bolsters, i think, the instincts of some of the good people in the mill w military who say, "we can't be used like this." >> senator, good morning. it is kasie hunt. good to see you. >> hi, kasie. >> before we faced these very difficult images of police, some of them not identified, in the streets here in washington, president trump was talking about voting by mail, and suggesting that perhaps results of elections, come november, should be called into question. we sort of have seen him lay the groundwork to raise questions

about outcomes of elections, perhaps his own. are democrats thinking about how to counter that in november? what actions are you taking to try and communicate with people around that? is that something that you view as a threat going forward? >> well, you never know what this president will do. every time you think there is some boundary, he goes beyond it and beyond it. lafayette park incident, the terrible things that happened there is one of them. one thing we have done, as you know, kasie, in the heros bill, the covid 4 bill s, is a robust election package. allowing every american to vote by mail. make sure the votes are counted accurately. we are working on provisions that would prevent, greatly deter foreign interference. the president doesn't seem to care if russia, iran, china, interfere in our elections. if past is prologue, they're going to try to do it again. we're trying all these kinds of

things. well, you know, the bottom line is, you never can underestimate how bad this president will be in every instance. right now, we're trying to protect the election, make it secure, and allow everyone who wants to, to vote by mail. we're going to fight for that in the covid 4 bill. >> senate minority leader chuck schumer, thank you so much. always good to talk to you. up next, valerie jarrett is standing by and will break down president obama's comments yesterday. what else? t what the former president may say ahead of november. "morning joe" is coming right back. n of the united states postal service. we're here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. every day, all across america, we deliver for you.

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when sometimes i feel despair, i just see what's happening with young people all across the country, and the talent and the voice and the sophistication that they're displaying. and it makes me feel optimistic. it makes me feel as if, you

know, this country is going to get better. i have to tell you, although i was very young when you had riots and protests and assassinations and discord back in the '60s, i know enough about that history to say, there is something different here. you look at those protests. and that was a far more representative cross-section of america, out on the streets, peacefully protesting, and who felt moved to do something because of the injustices that they had seen. that didn't exist back in the 1960s. that kind of broad coalition. this is a moment, and we've had moments like this before, where people are paying attention. and that doesn't mean that everything will get solved. don't get disenheartened because

this is a marathon and not a sprint. but the fact that people are paying attention provides an opportunity to educate, activate, mobilize, and act. and i hope that we are able to seize this moment. >> former president barack obama taking part in a virtual town hall yesterday. his first on-camera remarks since national protests broke out over the death of george floyd in minneapolis. joining us now, former senior adviser to president barack obama, valerie jarrett, and the president of color of change, rashad robinson. good morning. good to see you both. >> good morning. >> valerie, i'll begin with you. i was talking in our last hour with reverend sharpton, and i asked him what hope he has. does this time feel different? he said, absolutely, it does. he feels more hopeful now than he has in the wake of the many other deaths we've seen in the

last several years, because of exactly what president obama just spoke to, that broad coalition of people across age groups, across races in this country, that is now out in the streets. the president, as you know better than anyone, has been selective in the moments he's picked to go out and speak publicly. why did he want to speak out yesterday? >> well, good morning, willie. first, let me say, since this is the day that george floyd's funeral will be held, that my condolences go out to his family. i think in the words of his daughter, his 6-year-old daughter yesterday, she said, "my daddy has changed the world." i think that's right. this week has been an inflection point. my hope is it is the beginning of a turning point. i think what president obama was trying to communicate yesterday is that this is different. we have demonstrations in all 50 states. people of all races. people of all ages. in fact, the world is demonstrating, looking to the united states to be the beacon of hope we have always been.

we have digssappointed them. seizing upon this opportunity, president obama, initially, said, "look, mayors, we provided you with a report when i was in office. this is a guideline of how to bridge this gulf between police and communities of color. commit that you will look at your use of force policies and work with the community over the next 60, 90 days, and figure out what you can do differently." the good news, willie, is that there are examples of cities around the country who have been implementing those important -- that important task force report. so we know what needs to be done. the only question is, is there the political will? when we have this much pressure coming from peaceful demonstrations, and so many activists who are committed to the long haul, this is a marathon, not a sprint, that's what gives me reason to be hopeful. i am old enough to remember the civil rights movement, and this does feel different. >> rashad, your group, color of

change, organized that town hall with president obama. also, we saw attorney general eric holder there, as well. on the policy level, what'd you hear from president obama yesterday that lines up with where you are, and real practical changes that could be implemented inside police departments across the country? >> well, you know, i thought what was really great about what president obama said is he uplifted some of the demand in his 21st century policing report that came out of that commission. i testified at that commission. it was important that he upli uplifted those. he also talked about how things have changed. we have more data. we have more understanding of some of these problems. the place that we are now, in terms of what we should be pushing for, has moved some. yao kno you know, the other thing i appreciated about president obama is him opening up his platform. right now, we are at an inflection point. we can really have a huge opportunity to move forward.

him being able to really talk about that, but also talk about sort of the activists on the ground who are moving strategies around policing that is going to be great. some of us in that forum, in that room, whether we were asking questions or, like me, were presenting, were outside the white house sometimes and sometimes on the inside. we were pushing sometimes and challenging sometimes. to have -- and it is a reminder of how politics can work, when you have mature figures that can come to the table. could you imagine the president now sitting at the table with people who had delivered petitions or pushed for demands? president obama recognized that there are different roles that we have to play, recognized that even though we may have been pushing during -- sometimes during his time in office, there is a real responsibility that we are thinking about, all the various ways, both local and national, that we have to make real change. >> yeah.

valerie, the president and i are contemporaries. i think he may have been born a year before me. we were, you know, playing t-ball during -- and i always tell my children this when they call me a boomer. i say, "no, no, no, i was playing t-ball not only during woodstock. i was playing little league baseball in an elementary school during watergate." but, you know, the civil rights is -- movements of the 1960s, they're just clips, for the most part, for those of us born when we were. but i'm struck, as well, and i'm so glad the president reminded americans of this, when you look back at the clips of the great civil rights marches and the movements of the 1960s, the overwhelming majority of people marching were black. my 12-year-old boy noted in recent minnesota protests, and some d.c. protests, that the

majority of the protesters were white, often. so, of course, that's just the case in certain marches. but there is a broad coalition that president oba we saw attorney general eric holder there as well. on the policy level. >> what did you hear from president obama yesterday that lines up with where you are and real, practical changes that could be implemented inside police departments across the country? >> well, you know, i felt what was really great about what president obama said was he uplifted some of the demand in his 21st century policing report that came out that commission. i testified at that commission and was, you know, it was important that he uplifted though but he talked about how things have changed, how we have more data, how we have more understanding of some of these problems, and the place that we are now in terms of what we -pould be pushing for has mo could you imagion >> joe, you are absolutely right. as i mentioned, all 50 states -- look, one of my colleagues, a young white guy from minneapolis. he was in front of the white house earlier this week right at the time when the police forcibly removed a peaceful demonstration. he was scared. here he is a young person and i'm trying to explain to a white

guy who i'm so glad is out there on the front lines protesting, adding his voice to the need for change, to the need to make sure our justice system is just. if we want to say we're about rule and order, rule and order has to work for everybody, it has to be equitable. the black community cannot solve this problem by itself. we need allies from all weaksalf life understanding. i think the fact that the protests have gone on nine days, that the vast majority are peaceful, that people are communicating with the police. part of what has given me hope are snippets from police officers who are kneeling with marchers, marching with marchers, taking off their helmets and protective gear, realizing that this bond of trust works both ways and actually listen to one another. if we can keep that momentum up and it is hard to keep it up because when the press goes away oftentimes, you know, that builds the momentum. that's another thing that is

different from the '60s, joe, is this is being covered 24/7. social media is going viral with all kinds of messages, and that helps build the momentum as well. >> michael steele is with us and has a question. first, michael, i want to ask you a question about whether you think that the killing that we all saw, over nine-and-a-half minutes of george floyd may be one of those situations we saw in the 1960s. the church bombing that shocked the conscience of white america, and shocked the conscience of white america into supporting civil rights reforms, that changed this country, that moved us a little closer to the promise of the united states constitution and declaration of

independence. i'm wondering if we're not in a moment now where not only white america but all of america has been shocked into action and there is no turning back? >> yes, i think that's true. i think the standout for me is the fact that for eight minutes, almost nine minutes we actually got to watch what happened. we saw this young man die. i think that hit people in a way that other events, as tragic as they were, did not. the freddie gray and trayvon martin and other horrific killings, we were somewhat detached from that. we got the story a little bit after the fact. there weren't, you know, good visuals. you didn't really have a way to kind of piece it together for yourself and process it. this, you were there on that corner. you stood there with those bystanders and listening to the cops mock this man as he was dying. so i think it was a powerful impact and it drew people into

this conversation in a way that before they could just step away from it, which is why i want to ask valerie, president obama i think can play an probably should play a a very interesting and pivotal role here in framing the rest of the conversation, not to its clunon conclusion bu move people along as we saw the president do at tragic moments during his administration. do you see him looking to play that kind of role? because the traditional approach by former presidents is now off. i mean donald trump has eviscerated that pretense, if you will, that, okay, well, i will just let the current president do his thing. he has gone after former president obama in a way that is unseemly. do you think president obama now has a way to sort of move the country on a different narrative versus what president trump is doing as we saw this week at

st. johns trinity? >> well, it surely is a clear contrast, but let me say a few things to you, michael. first of all, i think when we look back at history at the death of emmet till, a young black man who -- boy, who was beaten and his mother decided -- beaten and killed, murdered, horrendously. his mother decided to open the coffin. that sparked a similar kind of visceral reaction. i think part of what we're seeing here is the cumulative effect of generations, generations of african-americans feeling as though they have not been treated equally. in fact, they have been treated horrendously. we watch gardner say the same thing, i can't breathe. i think the presidency of president trump has been contributory and then you add the overlay of the covid-19

virus which has had a disproportionate impact on the african-american community, and all of that has mobilized people in a way they haven't before. president obama enjoys a huge platform. he is well-respected and admired by so many americans and folks around the world. he said when he left office and he joined the most important office of all, of citizen, that he was looking forward to joining forces with americans and using his voice in any way that he can to be that force for good. so, yes, his foundation -- and yesterday was kind of an example of what it does, brings in new, younger voices who are energized and who have the ability to partner with him as we move forward toward change. he won't be doing this alone. he wants to form a big tent. he wants to help the next generation, train him on what he did as a young adult, as a community organizer. they're so much brighter and energized and enthusiastic and talented, beginning with organizations like, you know,

color for change, campaign zero. you have all of these young people, and on his website he listed all of the organizations. so we know who to get involved with. so i think that is different as well. yes, he will use that platform in any way he can, in his voice, in his authentic voice for change. >> rashad, as we look at a picture of barack obama on the television screen, it seems to me over 400 years of slavery, of suffering, of segregation, there have been three moments where america has moved forward on race relations. one, of course, the civil war and the ending of slavery. two, martin luther king in '63 along with the civil rights acts of '64 and '65. the third phase was the election of barack obama, a black man running a majority white country, the only time it has

hanned in t happened in the world. i'm wondering if we aren't looking at the fourth moment, and that is the protests all across america of black americans and white americans and hispanics and asian americans, all coming together in a way that, as president obama said, didn't even happen during the great civil rights movement of the 1960s. >> yes. i think there's so much possibility. when you think about what this movement has been able to create in terms of a shift in what is possible, right, we have white people taking out their cellphones in a starbucks to film an interaction. that is a direct result of the ways in which our movement has brought up these issues and helped people sort of recognize, there are people who previously may have looked at viral individualons of police intersections and had all sorts of reasons why they couldn't get involved, who are now taking

action. people because of the mix of the way that covid is killing our community in so many ways because of the bad decisions that preceded it and the bad decisions that followed it, as well as these viral videos, whether it is ahmaud arbery, breonna taylor, george floyd, all of the ways in which people are recognizing in new ways that violence against black people will not be solved simply by wishing it away. the policing issues that we have in this country will not be solved by small, sort of simple reforms. people are taking action and pushing new ways, and that is how we get to big, sweeping culture shifts. it is when people of all races and all backgrounds start to not only demand more from their government but demand more from themselves. >> all right. rashad robinson, thank you. valerie, always great to see you. thanks so much for being with us today. still to come, more on former defense secretary jim mattis breaking his silence with a

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comcast business. church hill shall we saw him inspecting the bombing damage. >> we shall fight on the beaches. we shall fight on the landing grounds. we shall fight in the fields. >> when george w. bush throwing out the ceremony pitch after 9/11. george h.w. bush signing the

americans with disabilities act. >> let the same wall of ex clues come tumbling down. >> for this president it was pow powerful and important to send a message. >> is that your bible? >> my bible. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." willie, i think it is very good. people are trying to come together. you have community leaders and police trying to come together, religious leaders and political leaders trying to come together. even at the white house they're now reading scripts provided to them by the daily show. it is very nice that they're all -- come on. comparing a guy gassing his own people and beating up camera men with churchill? it is a little much. >> yeah. i mean i guess it goes without saying but we'll say it anyway, that neither churchill nor

george w. bush sent gas or rubber bullets and flashbangs into a peaceful demonstration to clear a path to speak to the people there during the blitz or to throw that dart of a first pitch george w. bush threw in october of 2001 at yankee stadium. it is a desperate spin that's not going to win with anybody. >> it is a desperate spin thought working at all. of course, we saw the split screens of churchill in the battle of britain in 1940 when western civilization was on the brink, and on the right side we saw a man who was so enraged by the fact that reporters learned that he went down to secure a room in the white house as we want our presidents to do when there was a concern for the safety of the commander in chief. it is a very normal thing and didn't require him beating up americans and bashing in our

australian friends, reporters. anyway, we have a lot to talk about today. it is thursday, june 4th. with us we have former aide to george w. bush, to the white house and state department, elise jordan. we have professor at princeton university, eddie cloud jr. we have editor-in-chief of "the atlantic" magazine, jeffrey goldberg. willie, much going on right now, but i will tell you a few days ago former chairman of the joint kmee chiefs did something that has never been done by former chairman of the joint chiefs and that is speak out strongly and clearly of the commander in chief. admiral mike mullen calling the time we are in when donald trump is sending troops to beat up americans on the streets of america, called it an inflection

point. it certainly is how that is shaping up now. >> yeah, admiral mullen said, i can no longer remain silent. it has long been the unofficial policy of military leaders not to speak out about a sitting president. the dam has broken on that. we are seeing a number of current and retired senior military leaders now speaking out either in direct or implied criticism of president trump and his administration's recent actions against protesters. let's start with former secretary of defense general jim mattis. after more than a year and a half of silence, general mattis writes in a letter posted in "the atlantic" this, quote. i have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled. the words "equal justice under law" are carved in the pediment of the united states supreme court. this is what protesters are demanding. general mattis continues. when i joined the military some

50 years ago i swore an oath to support and defend the constitution. never did i dream that troops taking the same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the constitutional rights of their fellow citizens, much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander in chief with the military leadership standing alongside. general mattis goes on to criticize comments by the current defense secretary mark esper. he writes, we must reject any thinking of our cities as a battle space that our uniformed military is called upon to, quote, dominate. at home we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions by state governors. militarizing our response as we witnessed in washington, d.c. sets up a conflict, a false conflict between the military and civilian society. general mattis writes, donald trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the american people, does

not even pretend to try. instead, he tries to divide us. we are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. we are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. we can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. this will not be easy as the past few days have shown. but we owe it to fellow citizens of past generations that bled to defend our promise and to our children. we can come through this trying time stronger and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. we must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our constitution. we must remember lincoln's better angels and listen to them as we work to unite, only adopting a new path which means in truth returning to the original path of our founding ideals, will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad. joe, let's remind everyone, that

is general james mattis who served until december 2018 when he resigned as secretary of defense under president trump. he has been offered chances in the last year and a half to speak out about president trump, has declined those generally saying it is bad for democracy. but as you can see in that letter he wrote yesterday, the statement he put out, he now believes what he is seeing out of the white house, what he is seeing in the streets is much worse for democracy than not speaking out. >> well, and the united states of america saw one military leader after another step forward and actually speak out about what happened on june 1st. it may be -- maybe this is an overstatement. maybe this is being a bit melodramatic, but i don't think so. i believe that in the coming years students that go to west point and another military academies will look back at the

events of june 1, 2020, and they will see it to be an inflection point. they will see the examples of military leaders, bad choices made on one military leader's part after another. a terrible decision made by the secretary of defense to go, as he said, inspect a facility, a bathroom in lafayette park when, in fact, he ended up in, as general mattis called it, a bizarre photo op. so often, especially the age of donald trump, the leaders, the thought leaders, political leaders, media leaders, they don't stop and recognize a moment that is happening because we've all been so numbed by the chaos that has been swirling

around the white house and around washington, d.c. since january 20, 2017. mike mullen recognized that we were at an inflection point on that day on june 1st, and, of course, we've seen over the past several days, we've seen an extraordinary memo from the chairman of the joint chiefs which we will get to. of course, just yesterday we saw an extraordinary statement from james mattis, a former secretary of defense, with the recognition that, yes, we were at an inflection point. let's bring in a man who has been speaking to general mattis for some time, jeffrey goldberg, who runs "the atlantic." jeffrey, talk about your ongoing discussions with general mattis

and why he decided to speak out yesterday. >> yeah. well, actually it starts with mike mullen or it starts a year and a half ago right after general mattis resigned, obviously in protest if you recall. i've known him for years, and i kept bugging him, you know, and asking him, hey, when do you want to say something, when do you want to say something. you know, he believed, and we've talked about this on this show, he believes that retired military officers, former secretaries and the cabinet shouldn't criticize a sitting president. he was adhering to that and under a lot of criticism to that. on monday morning i e-mailed mike mullen, who i have known also for a long time and i asked him, hey, you want to say anything? we had a couple of exchanges, conversations. a couple of hours later he sends me that piece, that article about how he can't remain silent anymore. you know, it was obviously a

very well-read piece. i sent it on to jim mattis because i know that jim and mike are friends and that jim mattis respects mike mullen. he doesn't see him as kind of a showboat or anything. you know,is basically just said to jim mattis, you know, now? how is now working out? because i suspected that general mattis would be offended by a couple of things about the events of the past week. the first is anything that threatens the esteemed -- that civilians have of the military. good civilian/military relations are important to him. another piece is that anything that embarrasses the united states in front of our allies and adversaries gets under his skin. i knew those two things going in and, you know, one thing led to another and general mattis decided that this was the time to say something. it had gotten sufficiently dire in his mind.

so sort of following in the wake of admiral mullen, he wrote up -- he wrote up this statement. >> still ahead, general mattis is not the only military leader speaking out. we will walk through the others next on "morning joe." oln way. so as you head back out on the road, we'll be doing what we do best. providing some calm amidst the chaos. with virtual, real-time tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. for a little help, on and off the road. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, we'll make up to 3 payments on your behalf. you have the support of a, probiotic now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, and the gastroenterologists who developed it. align helps to soothe your occasional digestive upsets twenty-four seven. so where you go, the pro goes. go with align. the pros in digestive health. and if stress worsens your digestive issues,

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let's hear part of what retired mike mullen who served under presidents bush and obama wrote for "the atlantic" that started this. he writes, it sickened me yesterday to see security personnel, including members of the national guard, forcibly and violently clear a path through lafayette square to accommodate the president's visit outside st. johns church. i have to date been reticent to speak out on issues surrounding president trump's leadership, but we are at an inflection point, and the events of the past few weeks have made it impossible to remain silent. whatever trump's goal in conducting his visit, he laid

bare his right for the peaceful protest in this country, gave sucker to other countries that take comfort in our domestic strive. i am less confident in the soundness of the orders they will be given by this commander in chief, and i am not convinced that the conditions on our streets, as bad as they are, have risen to the level that justifies a heavy reliance on military troops. certainly, we have not crossed the threshold that would make it appropriate to invoke the provisions of the insurrection act, which president trump has threatened to use. furthermore, admiral mullen writes, i am deeply worried that as they execute their orders, the members of our military will be co-opted for political purposes. this is what the current chairman of the joint chiefs of staff sent out to top commanders yesterday. he wrote in part, as members of the joint force comprised of all races, colors and creeds, you embody the ideals of our

constitution. please remind all of our troops and leaders that we will up hold the values of our nation and operate consistent with national laws and our own high standards of conduct at all times. in a handwritten note scrawled on the bottom he wrote, we all committed our lives to the idea that this is america. we will stay true to that oath and american people. we are talking about former generals and admirals speaking out. this is coming from inside the administration, not directly critical of president trump but, elise jordan, i would kick this to you. this is the current chairman of the joint chiefs of staff reminding leaders, reminding the national guard, reminding his troops of the job and of the commitment to the american people. >> the chair of the joint staff was extremely compromised the day prior when he chose to walk across that park that had been

cleared by chemical agents, american protesters, the american people, just as secretary of defense mark esper also was compromised. everyone who chose to go along. so in retrospect a day later there were regrets, as there should be. it is absolutely horrifying that we're at this inflection point where we are even questioning using american troops to practice counter-insurgency across the country. what are we thinking? have we absolutely lost our minds? donald trump has been so protected by the norms that keep ex-generals and ex officials from speaking out. because of the norms there hasn't been an outcry from the beginning as there probably should be because of the great danger donald trump poses to

democracy. >> eddie gloud, these three military leaders one after another delivering strong statements, former chairman of the joint chiefs for the first time being deeply critical of a sitting commander in chief and then, of course, former secretary of defense, a respected general, and then the current chairman of the joint chiefs having to write that memo as a reminder to everyone and then writing again in his own handwriting, we committed our lives to america, to that oath and to the american people. an extraordinary few days, and certainly it looks on the morning of june 4th, three days later, that at least some military leaders were trained

well, were trained right, and have recognized the error of their ways and are reminding their soldiers and sailors and airmen, their marines of the first principle of that oath that they took. >> you know, joe, i have been thinking about these letters in a broader context. i want to pan out for a quick second. in some ways what we witnessed with donald trump clearing lafayette park for that photo-op was the theater of dictatorial power. he inscripted our military into the theater. we know what donald trump can do. remember when he deployed troops to the border with the caravan crisis, the manufactured crisis. remember the powerful moment we

talked about with general mattis telling his soldiers to hold the line. but what we are seeing is a direct challenge, not simply them holding their oaths, but they see the implication of this theater of dictatorial power and what donald trump is planning to do. it seems to me now that we see military leaders doing this, former and current, we need to see civilian leaders, former office holders, former people in the administration who know donald trump closely begin to come out and say something more forcefully. because if general mattis recognized and admiral mullen recognized it and the chair of the joint chiefs of staff recognized it, donald trump's toying with dictatorial power is an immediate threat to our democracy. i'm not trying to be hyperbolic,

just taking their response we saw the other day. all four officers involved in george floyd's killing now face charges. the latest on that on "morning joe."

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get the connectivity your business needs. call today. comcast business. all four officers involved in george floyd's death now have been charged. derek chauvin, the man who kneeled on floyd's neck, had thinks third degree murder charge upgraded to second degree, while the three other former officers ofld weinvolved

arrested and charged with aiding and abetting in second degree. here is attorney general keith ellison speaking yesterday. >> we are following the path of all of the evidence. wherever it leads, we are investigating as quickly as we can because speed is important. we are also investigating as thoroughly as we can because being complete and thorough is critically important, but it takes time. the reason thoroughness is important because every single link in the prosecutorial chain must be strong. it needs to be strong, because trying this case will not be an easy thing. i say this not because we doubt our resources or our ability. in fact, we are confident in what we are doing. but history does show that there are clear challenges here. >> joining us now legal analyst for nbc news and msnbc maya wiley. maya, specifically on the charges being upgraded for

officer chauvin from third degree to second degree murder, what is the distinction there? >> well, let's start with the distinction that many demonstrators and the family are interested in, which is possible 40 years versus 25. so it is a significantly more serious charge in terms of what officer chauvin will face if convicted. i think the second thing to understand that is so important is it sends the right legal message to police officers that the actions, the conduct that we saw from officer chauvin can't just be thrown up to "i didn't mean it." i mean legally speaking, the third degree murder charge is, you know, it was completely unintentional and while it was terrible, it was depraved, it was depraved indifference for human life. you know, at the second degree level there's more of an intent element, and the intent here,

just to be clear, is not planning a murder out in advance. the intent here, and particularly important in this case is aggravated assault by not planning out the murder in assault but nonetheless it rising to a level of conduct that is so serious that it deserves the second most serious murder charge there is on the book in the state of minnesota. >> maya, i'm interested in your view on something i've heard from a lot of people, mostly people who are sympathetic to attorney general ellison and want to see charges and a conviction for officer chauvin and that's the idea of overcharging, which is if you elevate it to second degree the bar is raised and you give wiggle room for a jury to acquit. is that a concern for you here at all? >> well, look, the thing about these cases bringing criminal charges against police officers is they're far too rare and

juries have been very, very, very difficult to extract convictions from even with very, very strong evidence, because people want to believe the police. they want to believe that their intentions are good. they believe that they tell the truth, and the problem for us as a nation is that means people say "don't believe their lying eyes." in this case the video is very powerful, it is very strong. it is one of the reasons that we have seen police officers, chiefs of police come out and publicly denounce this. that's rare in this country. it is very rare. it is because of the evidence. that doesn't mean there's not risk, but remember that one of the things that happens in the process is there are lesser charges so that the jury can opt to convict on a lesser charge if it goes in that direction. but i think that the attorney

general did absolutely what was legal mandat legally mandated in this case based on the evidence before us. and anything else, anything lake elsinore would have only reinforced, both for black americans but for americans of all races that justice is not as blind as it needs to be because it sees blue and it treats it differently. coming up, the author of the essay in "the atlantic" on what she calls the republican collaborators in president trump's destruction of american institutions, anne applebaum joins us next on "morning joe."

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back with breaking economic news. the labor department has just released its weekly report on jobless claims. another 1.9 million americans filed for unemployment benefits last week. that is just in line exceeding slightly expectations. that brings the 11-week total since the pandemic began to more than 42.5 million americans out of work. joe, tomorrow at this time we will get the may jobless number with some expectations that the unemployment rate in this country will reach 20%.

>> just unbelievable. again, willie, we are going through the most extraordinarily and challenging of times. we have heard for three years now people saying that donald trump's not had to face a crisis that wasn't of his own making, a dramatic crisis that wasn't of his own making. now here we are in 2020, his fourth year in office, and we have three of the greatest challenges of our lifetime, health wise certainly of most of our lifetime with a pandemic and then with this recession. again, 20% unemployment, the worst that we've seen since the great depression if we do, in fact, get there. of course, unrest in the streets, and underlying so much of this, not only what happened in minneapolis last week but also the fact that now over half of adults in america who are black do not have a job.

these are extraordinarily difficult times for all-americans, but especially for black americans. i can't help but think that part of -- part of what we're seeing in the streets also has to do with the economic disparities that too many black americans are still experiencing in 2020. >> yeah, there are so many cross currents here. you are right that more than half of african-american workers in this country are now out of work, and that total number we will get tomorrow morning. as i said, it could approach 20% of all americans out of a job. following president trump's threat to use active duty troops to combat protests and his administration's violent clearing of a peaceful protest for a photo op, "the washington post" reported that a number of cia veterans who monitored crackdowns abroad see troubling parallels in president trump's handle handling of the protest. the report reads this bay.

the scenes have been disturbingly familiar to cia analysts accustomed to monitoring scenes of societal unraveling abroad, the massing of protesters, the ensuing crackdowns and the displays of strength by a leader projecting authority. in interviews and in social media in currerecent days, surn former u.s. intelligence officials have expressed dismay at the similarity. one of the former cia analysts is gail helt, responsible for tracking developments in china and southeast asia and told "the post" she has seen this before. saying, this is what autocrats do. this is what happens in countries before a collapse. it unnerves me. gail joins us now. she is now a professor at king university in tennessee. also with us, author of the book

"surviving "surviving "surviving autocracy." we have anne applebaum, who argue they will abandon their principles in support of an immoral president. gail, let me begin with you about your quotes about the parallels you have seen in the president and what you have seen abroad in many years. what specifically concerns you? >> i think it culminated for me always bit after i made those comments actually. but when i saw president trump walk to the front of that church after he violently cleared protesters, you know shall standing thershall -- you know, standing there holding up a bible, it reminded me of every image i have seen. for example, kim jong-un standing on the top of mount paktu or sitting on top of the

white house. the imagery -- when kim jong-un does it, it is to conjure a divine image. that's what it seemed like donald trump was doing. that unnerved me. it comes at the end of three years of him eroding our trust in our democratic institutions, eroding the institutions themselves. we don't believe our press anymore. we don't believe in our intelligence community anymore. we don't respect our civil servants anymore. donald trump doesn't respect the constitution anymore. all of those things coming together -- i mean, honestly, i'm terrified. >> anne applebaum, we have been talking about your extraordinary piece in "the atlantic" for some time. it seems to underline the fact that our founders, they anticipated an out-of-control chief executive. they anticipated an out-of-control president. in fact, they put in madisonion

balances to check would-be tyrants. their worst scenarios would be a compliant congress. that's what you were actually talking about yesterday on twitter and also what your piece delved into. how concerned should we be? >> well, i think very concerned. you know, the issue is not just the compliant congress, it is also compliant top officials. you know, we are used to the idea that certain institutions in a liberal democracy are non-partisan, the state department, the army, the cia. you know, these are institutions that serve whoever is in power no matter, you know, what he or she does, whichever political party they serve to. since he has taken over the white house trump has sought to change the nature of these institutions and make them answerable to him alone. that's what we saw in lafayette square when he tried to use the

army, you know, to use army leaders beside him to evoke the idea that somehow the army was on his side, it was a partisan institution. that's what we see when he downgrades, you know, when he insults the cia, when he insults the fbi. the fact that leaders of those institutions and, as you say, leaders of congress have not fought back, have not stood out, have not tried to object to any of this, this is an important sign of democratic decline. these are people who are no longer willing because of a variety of reasons that i describe in the article, no longer willing to stand up for institutions that they know are being damaged and for values that they know are right. >> anne could you ever have imagined -- this is not a leading question. i am just curious because i didn't ever imagine -- i guess it is a great lack of imagination on my part. but did you ever imagine an

american president in this time first attacking the press as enemies of the people like stalin did, then attacking an independent federal judiciary, questioning the legitimacy of federal courts when they ruled against his travel bans, muslim bans. then attacking the agencies, vicious attacks against the cia, the fbi, and the republican party standing quietly by as he did it, acquiescing? >> yes, there are reasons why he is attacking those kind of institutions, because those are the institutions that are capable of holding him to account. you know, the free press can investigate whether or not his companies are making money off his presidency. the judiciary can turn down or counter things that he says or

laws that he passes. you know, his attempt to limit those institutions is in a way of trying to expand his power. everybody who is in congress right now knows that. this is not a question of, you know, people in the world who might vote for trump because they don't pay much attention to politics and the economy was doing great and so on. no, these are people who understand the constitution extremely well. they know that trump has overstepped the bounds. many of them say so off the record. many say so to their democratic colleagues in congress. nevertheless, they have been unwilling, a combination of desire to be close to power, fear of losing power themselves, desire to conform, fear of being embarrassed or attacked on twitter. sometimes using even a kind of vitiate argument that the other side is worse. in other words we have to collaborate with donald trump no matter what he does because the left is so dangerous and so

negative and so damaging to american life that we have to prevent it. this is the kind of argument that has been used in occupied countries in the past. this is how when france was occupied by the nazis, this is how they justified what they did. we have to collaborate with germany because the alternative is so much worse. >> masha gadsden, you have been a consistent critic of vladimir putin and his regime in russia. it does take real critic to be a consistent critic of vladimir putin. what do you see in the streets of america over the last ten days as someone who has studied au ok autocracy abroad? >> what i'm seeing is the performance of fascism. donald trump has told us before but never quite as clear or

frightening, he is showing us what power looks like and sounds like. he thinks power looks like troops on the steps of the memorial or guarding the white house. this is particularly frightening. we are seeing military force and a display to be refusing to be accountage in any way. the fact that the troops are refusing to identify themselves, the fact they're unmarked is terrifying to me. he thinks power sounds like blackhawk helicopters used to clear protesters, he thinks it looks like tear gas used to clear protesters, he thinks it sounds like dominate which he repeated over and over in his phone call with governors. it is a performance of power and fascism. everything we know about fascism, it is the power of -- it is power that is concentrated in the hands of one nation, one race, and it brutally suppresses

dissent. we see that now. he has chosen his road, whether he is capable of grasping the concept or not. >> so, masha, you have described this as a performance of fascism. what comes next in the practice of fascism and do you see that headed in this direction? >> i don't make predictions, but i can tell you what we are observing. what we're observing, a power grab always begins as a -- right. a claim is made and then autocrats' pleas or whether it is, the performance is believed. that's what we're asking right now. i think the lines are extremely worrisome. we have seen some voices from the military object to this claim to unitary power and to the right to use military force in the united states, but we have not seen an appropriate reaction from congress. we have not seen an insurrection

within the white house, which is what we should be seeing. we should be seeing this power claim being rejected. >> so, gail, we have seen -- yes, we have seen some of the military pushing back. we have seen federal judges over the past several years including judges described as conservatives pushing back against donald trump's unconstitutional reaches of power. we have seen quite a few bureaucrats, inspectors general doing the same thing get fired. i am wondering as we look at what donald trump has done over the past three-and-a-half years and whether we look forward to a time past donald trump in the white house, whether we need to figure out how to rely less on norms, less on constitutional norms, less on political norms and actually instead put more laws on the book that actually

constrains a president in a way that would have been helpful over the past three-and-a-half year, be that president democratic or republican? >> i think -- i think that there is something to that. i do believe that putting more laws on the definitely be beneficial. having something concrete to actually, you know, throw up there when, god forbid, another president down the road becomes -- takes an authoritarian turn. but i don't want to minimize the importance of these norms and especially american values. we used to have values that would have deterred a president from behaving in this way. we had a fairly tightly knit, even though it's flawed, societal fabric, and over the years, that's weakened a little bit, but donald trump has pretty much unraveled it. but that societal fabric are the american values that we hold dear and those values place our constitution pretty much above all else, and yet over the last three years, americans

themselves don't really value the constitution because if they did, there would be public outcry because -- over trump's behavior. and i want to see us kind of rally around our founding valleys and documents more and i'm hoping that the next administration will be able to facilitate that. >> ann, you challenged general mattis to speak out. yesterday you challenged republican leaders to speak out who should be speaking out given their backgrounds. are you hopeful that that's going to happen? are you hopeful that the institutions will hold for the next six months? >> well, as you know, general mattis did speak out after the article was published. i can't take credit for that, obviously, but he and a number of other senior generals do seem to have been very alarmed, and i'm glad they are speaking because those are voices that have a lot of influence on the side that matters. namely the side that -- the group of americans who support

the president. let me answer your question in a slightly sideways way by responding partly to the one you asked masha gessen which is, what would come next? in a lot of liberalizing countries or countries that cease to be democracies, what comes next is the attempt to steal an election. and what i hope all americans will be focused on over the next several months is will trump and will the republican party collaborate in an attempt to steal this election? will they try to change the rules? will they mess around with distance voting? will they -- you know, exacerbate the problems caused by the pandemic to prevent people from voting. that's the thing that's going to happen next. and the real test for the republican party is, will they, you know, do they value democracy in america enough to allow a real election to go through and to allow themselves

to lose? and -- >> nod that point -- >> i think there will be a few people that will break out of it. i'm doubtful as to whether we can rely on the party leadership. >> and the president's already working hard to discredit mail-in voting, to your point. anne applebaum, gayle helt and masha gessen, author of "surviving autocracy." thank you all for this conversation. coming up next on "morning joe," senator tom cotton calls for a military response to the protests across the nation. talk about that when we come right back on "morning joe." so as you head back out on the road, we'll be doing what we do best. providing some calm amidst the chaos. with virtual, real-time tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. for a little help, on and off the road.

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cancer treatment centers of america. call now for an appointment. "usa today" opinion columnist, "morning joe" contributor and former senior adviser for the house overnight committee government reform committee, kurt baldala is with us. thank you so much for being here. you and i, as former republicans, we see that tom cotton, a republican senator is actually in a "new york times" op-ed that sparked a ton of controversy at the time that he's calling for active u.s. troops to occupy the streets of the united states of america. what a long, long way we are from the 2010 tea party election

where republicans were striking out against the expansion of the central i centralized state. >> i mean, it's remarkable, joe, when you think about what the republican party used to stand for, talking about smaller government, warning about the quote/unquote executive overreach of barack obama, calling him lawless and emperor. you know, we saw the birth of the moniker constitutional conservative. you look at the events of the last 48 hours. you have a united states senator, someone who is often talked about as potentially running for president some day, saying he supports the occupation of our streets by the american military. you see the kangaroo court hearings that lindsey graham had yesterday trying to revive these ridiculous conspiracy theories that barack obama had done something wrong or illegal in trying to investigate russia's

deliberate actions against our country in interfering with our elections. you also look at what happened in the house oversight committee where you had a fired inspector general go there and say directly that he was fired for investigating secretary of state mike pompeo's shady arms deal andution personal -- using taxpayer resources for personal gain. these are the things happening in america right now on top of the other 100,000 people dead because of covid-19. on top of the protests we're seeing justifiably for racial injustice in this country. and although all the republican party is enabling this president, enabling this president's worst dictatorial instincts and it completely defies everything they said they stood for during the eight year barack obama was president. >> and willie, the -- i mean the hypocrisy is too easy to point out. i talked about it all the time. a group of people that got elected in 2010 promising to cut the size and scope of the federal government, to bring down the federal debt, to move

towards a balanced budget. under donald trump, driving up the national debt, even before the pandemic and the spending that went along with that to record levels. and the same people enraged any time barack obama would sign an executive order. having a guy shred constitutional norms. and even their article 1 spending powers by declaring funding emergencies. they are talking about sending u.s. troops to the streets of america. >> yeah, i remember small government conservativism, joe. i remember debts and deficits and opposition to tariffs. all those things have gone by the wayside. kurt, i want to ask you more specific baally about that op-e written by tom cotton. he served himself in the united states military calling for the military to be put in the streets.

that's an offensive idea to a lot of people in this country but there's polling. morning consult had a poll that showed 58% of americans say if it stops the looting i'm seeing on my television if it stops what i'm watching, i would support that. so has senator cotton actually tapped into something in the american culture right now that says, i want to support the protesters. i think we need change in this country but i don't like what i'm seeing in the streets. >> i think what we need to realize here is, once you start something, it's hard to take it back. and i think what we're seeing right now is a dress rehearsal for what president trump and his republican neighbors might want to do later on. we heard the discussion about what the election will be. will the republicans allow the election to happen the way that we envision it to do so? and every time that trump pushes these boundaries which he's done his entire presidency and senators give an okay and in the case of cotton, they outwardly say we support this. it sets the stage for something

more drastic later on. >> you know, willie, also -- just have to say also, tom cotton served in the united states military. he has no excuse for his ignorance. tom cotton went to harvard law school. he knows the constitution of the united states. he has no excuse to engage in this dangerous demagoguery, regardless of what they flash poll of americans who weren't in the military and who probably didn't go to harvard law school may not have known. anyway, kurt, thank you so much for being with us. willie, thank you as well. and we want to thank all of you for watching willie and me this morning and we will be safe. please be safe. the pandemic is still with us. and we'll be back tomorrow morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now.