there is no evidence of that so far in the polling. he's suffering terribly among independent voters. the internal polling is brutal. there have been kmecomments tha he's made in the last weeks that cut through and are damaging to him. probably above all else, his comment that, "when the looting starts, the shooting starts." that resonates and not in a good way. >> yeah. that was literally, i believe, day three of the protests. that has followed him throughout this entire time. thank you, as always, my friend, jonathan swan. i'll be reading "axios am." signup.axios.com. that does it for me on this friday morning. i'm yasmin vossoughian. "morning joe" starts right now. all options are on the table. >> we're not considering anything, but all options are on the table. >> not taking any option off the table right now. >> all options are on the table. >> okay.

the trump administration leaving all options on the table when they're dealing with, let's see, north korea, venezuela, iran, and american civilians. hmm. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, june 5th. with us, we have white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan lemire. washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. and associate editor of the "washington post" and pulitzer prize winning columnist, gene robinson. along with willie and me. mika has the morning off. willie, you see the response that the white house has given, and we can talk to jonathan lemire about this, there are still a few people inside the white house who believe that what the president did on monday was the right thing the do do. it was great politically for him. they're going all in on the law

and order thing, thinking that this is 1968. again, lyndon johnson was president in 1968. humphrey was vice president. law and order was used against a sitting incumbent vice president when the country was on fire back then. but you look at the poll numbers. we're going to be showing an abc news poll that just came out a few minutes ago. they show that people overwhelmingly -- and not only overwhelmingly oppose the president's approach to this, but also overwhelmingly support the protest eers. i guess what baffles me so much is why the president, looking at these numbers, looking at where 2/3 of america is, why the president can't try to be more of a unifier. why he can't try to bring --

it's never too late to change. i know it seems impossible for him to do, but, again, if 2/3 of americans are opposing your approach, and every day, more generals, more military men and women coming out, criticizing that approach, why not try a different direction? >> yeah. new abc poll out this morning, joe, shows 32%, 32% of americans support the way the president has handled these protests in the aftermath of the death of george floyd. as you said, general john kelly, president's former chief of staff now, he's out yesterday, confirming general mattis' version of events, that he, in fact, resigned and was not fired. you have people, generals, not just from the outside of the military, but also who worked for and beside donald trump for a couple of years, coming out and criticizing him in a very public way. jonathan lemire, as you listen

to the white house press yesterday talking about all options being on the table, they continue to drill down into the idea they may put military into the streets. that they keep all options on the table, talking, again, about protesters and demonstrators who are overwhelmingly peaceful. they want to keep the military option on the table for american protesters in the streets. >> that's right, willie. yesterday was the memorial service for george floyd in minneapolis, which featured an absolutely gut-remembwrenching 8:46, the amount of time the officer's knee was on mr. floyd's neck. the president made not one mention of mr. floyd yesterday on twitter or anything else. he didn't have public events yesterday. we didn't hear from him directly, but he was very active on twitter. as you played, a white house spokesman made it clear, the military option was still on the table.

they're still focusing on the unruliness of a small subset of the protesters. they're ignoring the underlying causes to this point. they're certainly not talking about the largely peaceful protesters but, instead, fixating on some of the clashes we're still seeing in american cities. to joe's point earlier, this is a white house and a re-election campaign that is absolutely leaning into this law and order narrative. that the president is the tough candidate here. he is going to show strength. it is donald trump's perception of strength and might because he is using american forces and federal law enforcement on american citizens. they believe that can still work. the new poll, that i know we're going to talk about, suggests that the majority of people do not necessarily agree. there are concerns about some of the optics about how monday night went down. the president complained bitterly to aides about the media coverage that he has received, for the way lafayette park was cleared, the way he held that bible in front of the church. in terms of an overall narrative, this is still something they want, and they feel it is a contrast they can

win with some of the democratic mayors and governors who are seeing these protests happen in their streets. it also goes to show, as a final point, it's a president without much of a playbook right now. they're flailing and grasping to try to change the subject here from this week and how the president, in his mind, he fears that he looks afraid, cowardly, behind a heavily fortified white house, and not being able to engage these protesters in any meaningful way. >> this week has been an absolute disaster. there are other ways to approach these protesters. instead of confrontation. i know i'm speaking -- i know this is obvious, but any white house aide that believes that only having 32% of americans support your approach to one of the great crises of our time need to leave the white house.

the president is not being served well there. you can say the same thing about the pandemic. the president's numbers in this abc news are extraordinarily low when it comes to the pandemic. there's no getting around the fact that those are two of the biggest crises this country has faced since, you take your pick, 1968, world war ii, and americans are opposed to the way he handled both of those crises. it's going to require a new start. but, you know, katty, i think, in part, what is driving such a dramatic -- even the numbers in this abc poll show how the numbers have change d how wider americans look at policing and look at police -- bad behavior by police officers.

it's changed dramatically, even since ferguson. this is, as i keep saying, this is a national issue that has shocked the consciousness of white americans, of black americans, of all americans, so much so that it is much like the birmingham church bombing back, i think in 1963. 1963. it changed so many minds, white minds especially, on civil rights. you tweeted something last night about an incident that happened in buffalo. we're seeing these incidents every day. i will repeat, the overwhelming majority of the protesters are peaceful. they are to be commended. the overwhelming police officers are doing their jobs and trying to keep the peace and trying to protect people's lives and property. we're seeing, it seems every

day, katty, more examples of some police officers that are wildly out of control. as you tweeted last night after that senior citizen was shoved to the ground and was bleeding from his head, as you said -- and if we can show the video tape -- katty, nobody stopped. they didn't even check. that man looked like he could have been dead. >> yeah. it turns out that man was 75 years old. he'd gone up to the police to ask them something, clearly about the protests, or maybe about their tactics, and he was clearly addressing some concern he had with them. they pushed him over. then it was slightly surreal. i had to keep going back to watch the video again and again, to see if what i thought emerging from behind his head on the pavement really was blood. it is very clearly blood. you can slow the video down and see this pool of blood emerging

behind his head. there are dozens of police officers around him, and none of them do anything. they literally just walk past him. it is possible that one of them calls for some medical help. he talks into a walkie-talkie at one point, but nobody bends down and says, "are you okay? can we help you up, sir," even checks that he is okay. it is images like that one, which is an older white guy, images that we all saw of george floyd that goes on and on, 8:46, and then we see the videos of police punching reporters that have gone all around the world, reporters from other countries, too. it's the combination of all of those incidents on video of police brutality, from protesters who are clearly peaceful, or reporters who are just doing their jobs.

i think it's been -- maybe america didn't need the wake-up call. maybe we should have been more aware of this already, but i think it's brought it home this time. >> willie, if you look at this buffalo shot, you actually had a police officer start to bend over to check on this 75-year-old man, and they just pushed him along. just pushed the police officer along, and they kept moving. it was inhumane. it was inhumane. on a small level. if you multiply that out though, night after night, you multiply that out on what we've seen in new york city and, of course, what we've seen in the minneapolis protests, and, yes, just because there's rioting on one side from people who are not marching peacefully does not give police officers the right to be abusive on the other side

toward peaceful protesters. just to pick up very quickly on what katty said, the damage that law enforcement is doing to themselves right now, their reputation, because of, yes, i will say, a small percentage of police officers, but a larger culture that allows a police officer to think they can do what they've been doing, targeting, targeting reporters, whether it's in lafayette park across from the white house, finding a cameraman and literally going over to him and trying to bash his head in. or i think it was louisville, where i think it was rubber bullets. actually, they saw a reporter, and a police officer farg targe the reporter specifically. add this to the list as

footnotes of what black americans have been telling white americans for years, that happened to them in a much greater percentage, with much worse results. >> yeah. there was something in the culture that allowed officer chauvin that day, two mondays ago, in minneapolis, in broad daylight, to know he was being filmed, to look coldly up at the cameras with his hand on his hip or his hand in his pocket, and leave his knee on george floyd's neck for almost nine minutes. as you talk about buffalo, new york, that incident yesterday, now two police officers have been suspended without pay after this video shows one of them knocking a 75-year-old man to the ground during a protest and slamming his head to the pavement. you can see blood coming from his ears as he lay there. the video was recorded by buffalo public radio station wbfo.

>> [ bleep ]. >> he's bleeding out of his ear. >> get a medic. >> what the [ bleep ]. >> the buffalo police department responded to that video, initially telling wbfo, quote, during the skirmish involving protesters, one person was injured when he tripped and fell. now, that's on video. >> why do they keep lying? >> the police department said he tripped and fell. >> they keep lying, time and time again. we have police departments lying about what we see on tape about what they do to protesters, about the targeting of reporters. it's almost as if they think this is 1968 and everybody doesn't have a camera phone. >> yeah, unclear what the skirmish was either, as the 75-year-old man walked up to them. the buffalo mayor, brown, said

he is deeply disturbed by the video, and suspensions came after the police commissioner launched an investigation into that incident. the man who has not been publicly identified is in serious but stable condition, we're happy to say now, at a local hospital. governor andrew cuomo tweeted, this incident is wholly unjustified and utterly disgraceful. gene robinson, what goes through your mind as you watch that video and some of the other video we've seen over the last ten days? >> it's amazing. i mean, i think a lot of african-americans would say, you know, "welcome to our world." but there's nothing to -- it's astounding. it is astounding. what strikes me is the lie is almost as bad as what happened initially. that's the reflex, right? the reflex is always to cover it up and say, "well, you know, he

was a bad guy," or "he was menacing in some way." that has happened in black and brown communities since time in memorial, over and over and over again, every day. and there is a culture inside many police departments. i don't think it's inside all police departments anymore, but inside many police departments, that really needs to be reformed. and now. it has needed to be reformed for a long time. we're seeing it play out on the streets. people are angry, and justifiably angry. >> gene, i wanted to get your reaction to -- i talked about this abc news poll, but so many other polls are showing that

this really is -- this is a moment in time when americans, white americans, white americans are waking up to the fact that what happened to george floyd wasn't an isolated incident. as i said in this latest poll, and you can see it in other polls back during ferguson, most white americans thought ferguson was an isolated incident. most americans thought eric garner was an isolated incident. most americans always thought, like, trayvon was an isolated incident. conservative media tried to defend george zimmerman, as you'll remember. i remember being just distressed by all the conservatives that immediately rushed to george zimmerman's side. at the beginning of this, i noticed so many conservative media even were immediately calling out the police here. you see now many americans, for

the first time, are saying, okay, what you've known. when you've had to talk to your young sons about the fact that they could be shot because they were black, and what they needed to do if themp evy were ever st in a car. do you think that these numbers suggest that, just like after selma, after the birmingham church bombing, do you think george floyd's death, his tragic death, his murder, do you think that that's awakening white americans and all americans to this police culture that risks the lives of black hearn americ every day? >> i think it may have. i'm certainly hopeful that it has. the other day, i guess wednesday, i went down to the -- to lafayette square, where the

protesters had been routed with, you know, mounted police and all that nonsense on monday, so that trump could have his -- president trump could have his photo-op. and, you know, just in the crowd, it was an incredibly diverse crowd. diverse in race. diverse in age. diverse in political views. but just people who felt they had to come out and say, "enough." you cannot watch the video of what officer -- former officer derek chauvin and the other officers did to george floyd and be unmoved. and be not outraged. you can't watch it and not see that a terrible wrong is being

committed. it's the 8 minutes and 46 seconds. it is an interminally long time. yeah, i think this has resonated in a way those earlier killings, even in their sum, right -- because these isolated incidents kept happening, obviously not in isolation -- but this one has struck home in a way that, clearly, previous ones did not. you know, i mean, there have been demonstrations worldwide, in all 50 states, in hundreds of cities now. this is a major inflection point, i think. you know, it is going to -- if we had good leadership and smart and compassionate leadership, i would be a bit more optimistic about the prospect of positive change in the short run.

but i am fairly optimistic in the longer run. i think this is really changing people's attitudes. >> it has. still ahead on "morning joe," senator cory booker is going to be joining us. also, the attorney general of minnesota, former congressman, keith ellison. plus, retired four-star admiral william mccraven will be here. what he makes of the president's use of military force against american civilians. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. as a struggling actor,

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as we mentioned a moment ago, 2/3 of americans disapprove of president trump's reaction in the aftermath of george floyd's death, according to a new poll. when the latest abc/ipsos asked if you approve of the way donald trump is handling the response to the death of george floyd in minneapolis, 32% of americans say they approve of his

reaction, while 66% say they disapprove. the poll also found 74% of americans feel floyd's death was a sign of broader problems in the treatment of african-americans by police. 26% of americans feel it is an isolated incident. meanwhile, president trump's approval rating for his handling of coronavirus remains at 39%. 60% of americans disapprove of the president's handling of the response to the virus. joe, you've got two numbers in the 30s right now on the two biggest questions in american society right now. first, the coronavirus, which is still very much with us, has been overshadowed, of course, for the last couple of weeks by the protests and demonstrations after the death of george floyd, and george floyd's death, and this movement in this country. only 32% of americans believe donald trump is doing a good job. >> well, and you look at the numbers. i talked to gene before, things are changing dramatically, not

just politically but also soc t societally. 64% of white people thought ferguson and the eric garner incident were isolated ones. now, 70% of white americans believe it is a systemic problem. it is a systemic problem with policing in black communities. and, yet, you look at the number right now, in this incredible crisis we find ourselves in. yes, 32% of americans support the way the president is handling it. 66% disapprove. if you dig into the numbers, another serious problem for the president and for a campaign that was expecting to get 15%/20% of the black vote, which would have been much higher than

any republican candidate has ever gotten in the past. 90% of black americans are opposed to the way the president is handling this crisis. again, with this many americans oppose i opposing the white house's approach, you would think now would be a time for the president to change his approach towards these protesters and try to find common ground. this is not working politically. katty, you look at these numbers, especially as it p pertains to the handling of this crisis, and there is no doubt that monday, and then i need to go to jonathan lemire after you because, obviously, jonathan will have some reporting inside the white house, but monday was a disaster for the president, politically, militarily, and just about every other way, it

seems. >> yeah. i mean, thiese numbers suggest americans don't like the sight of innocent protesters being beaten up by police. they don't like the sight of the military being used in heavy force on the streets of washington against americans. all of the things that president trump thought of in that kind of gut reaction he has of, oh, my god, i've been portrayed as weak, so i have to be super strong, don't look like strength to most people. the scene of going across, holding the bible wi, as protess have been tear gassed. that's resonated, and americans have seen that and don't think it's strong. the president's gut instincts, those personal traits that he always falls back on, of, "well, i've been seen as weak so i have to be strong." they don't seem to be playing very well for him at the moment. they don't seem to be working for him, according to these abc poll numbers. >> jonathan, is there a next

move for the white house? is there -- are there any members inside the president's inner staff that might suggest to him that, perhaps, a less confrontational approach, that started with him saying, "when there is looting, there is shooting," and calling the protesters thugs, talking about law and order? is there anybody that can go to hill a him and say, "mr. president, this isn't working. let's try reaching out and see if that will do better, because we've lost america on this issue." >> there have been preliminary discussions about launching a task force to listen to the concerns of minority communities. secretary ben carson was to be potentially involved in that. that hasn't gotten off the ground, and we are more than a week into this crisis. what we saw yesterday, also, some republicans speaking out.

obviously, former secretary mattis' letter the other day, comments sharply criticizing the president, has emboldened other military former members. the senator of alaska spoke out, and the president hit back on twitter almost immediately. joe, your point about the african-american voter is spot on. this campaign thought they could do historically well, the republicans, with the black vote. they wanted to win some of the voters, and also, if they could show they were working toward helping that community, that might suppress the enthusiasm of black voters to vote against him, to hold the numbers down. if he could argue, there is not that much of a difference between what a trump administration would look like and a biden administration for black voters. it is a signal to white suburban voters that, look, the president is trying to help minority communities. those plans are more or lesswin.

they're not sure they can repair the damage. the poll is devastatindevastati. the other note, his handling of the coronavirus pandemic. the president has been trying to change the subject, get the pandemic off the front page. he knew it was hurting him politically. he tried different tactics, none of them worked. finally, this death and these protests have done exactly that. the problem, though, and we've reported today, the white house is growing deeply concerned that these protests are the very thing that will ignite the pandemic again. they've restarted some of the coronavirus task force. dr. birx is the point person on this. to monitor the cases that could stem from these protests we're seeing across the country. of course, it will be weeks before we know their effects. yes, these are largely young people. many are wearing masks, and they're outside. that may hold. that may reduce the risk of transmission. they're also potentially

bringing, even as an asymptomatic carrier, bringing that home and infecting family members. we won't know those results for weeks. >> willie, if you remember, it was a couple weeks ago that everyone, from this show to sean hannity's show, were concerned about people in the ozarks hanging out in pools and resorts. it didn't look safe. and you look at the mass demonstrations that are going on in the middle of this pandemic, and it is hard to imagine that there aren't going to be terrible consequences, especially for the black community, which had, unfortunately, a disproportionate number of illnesses and deaths from covid-19. >> yeah. it was just over two weeks ago, i think, the pool party at the lake of the ozarks, which caused

outrage across the country. now, we're seeing tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, rightly in the streets, protesting and demonstrating. people who support the protests, who support the demonstrations, have expressed concerns. we had nancy pelosi on a couple days ago. speaker pelosi said, "yes, i am worried, despite the fact i support everything these people are out saying. i am worried they may begin to transmit covid-19," which is, as i said, very much still with us. gene robinson, i wanted to ask you, just going back to the poll we started this segment with that showed 74% of americans believe the death of george floyd reflects something more broad in our culture, more broad in society, which flips what we saw just six years ago in ferguson, where 60% of americans thought it was an isolated incident. i'm always weary of saying this time feels different, because how many times have we said this after a school shooting and not much changes, but do you see and feel something in the streets when you go out into washington, you go to lafayette square park,

and you talked about the crowd that was there, and you see the power, the strength, and the size of these movements, do you feel this is different, from your perspective? >> it's clearly different, willie. i mean, just because of the scope and scale of the uprising, of the outrage. i mean, it is much more widespread, much more diverse than anything i've seen before. you know, getting from here to a better place is always a complicated process and will be again this time. you know, a lot of what needs to happen in terms of reforming policing in this country and getting the racism out of it has to happen on the local level. there are some things that can

be done relatively short order, if there is the will to do them. you can perform use of force policies, for example. you could impose on officers a duty to intervene, that would have compelled the other officers to intervene when chauvin had his knee on george floyd's neck. you can ban choke holds. you can do things like that. you can -- you can shift toward community policing, which can make a difference. getting to know the communities. you know, these are battles that mayors and police chiefs, however well-meaning, are going to have to fight with

departments that are often enkre entrenched, set in their ways. a lot of departments, most of the officers don't actually live in the cities. urban police departments i'm talking about. a lot of the officers don't actually live in the cities. that reinforces the sort of concept that they're an army of occupation, rather than a police force serving the citizenry. so i don't think we should be under any illusions that this is going to be easy and that, you know, couple months from now, we're going to look back and say, "well, everything is better." that's not going to happen. again, good federal leadership could help. they talked a bt ed about a tas. you could have a meaningful, impactful federal effort to -- which i know the democratic

house would be interested in, in coming up with sort of uniform standards for policing. certainly around use of force, for example, which should be standardized. there's no reason why you could -- why could, you know, you potentially be choked to death over nothing in minneapolis but, say, you know, not in washington, d.c., or wherever? it's ridiculous. >> right. >> you could -- you could have an impact. this administration won't do that. we may have to wait for the next administration. >> yeah. you know, it is interesting, willie, you were talking about how we need to be careful to overread what's happening right now and suggest that there may be a change that's caused by this. you talked about school shootings. while the school shootings have

continued after newtown, after the tragedy of sandy hook, polls actually did change quite dramatically on universal background checks, on red flag laws, on other issues, even on the carrying of the type of -- the purchasing of the type of weapon that was used at sandy hook and so many of these other mass shootings. even though we haven't seen a legislative response yet, there is a change in the american electorate. that will be born out in legislation in the future. and i think we have the same thing here, where we're seeing a change, a dramatic change in attitude, especially among white americans, and that, too, at some point, will be born out in legislation. >> no question about it, yeah. >> go ahead, willie.

i'm sorry. >> i was going to say, don't get me wrong, i'm hopeful for that change, and i think we will have that change. as gene says, it is a question of tying that change in public opinion to change in policy. that's the key, not to let this moment slide. coming up next, president trump goes after his former chief of staff general john kelly, after general kelly suggests trump may be, quote, confused about the circumstances around the departure from the white house of general james mattis. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment to sleepy smudges... to shower-skipping. these days call for a quick clean. luckily, help is still one wipe away. love, neutrogena®. however, there is one thing you can be certain of. the men and women of the united states postal service. we're here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions

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general mattis' letter was stunning and powerful. general mattis is a man of extraordinary sacrifice. he is an american patriot. he is an individual whose judgment i respect. i think the world of him. >> general mattis called the president a threat to the constitution. do you agree? >> i respect general mattis. he has every right to express his opinion. that's his opinion. >> i think everybody has a right to their opinion of what's going on. >> general mattis served his country well and honorably. he is entitled to his opinion. >> i'm not going to get between a dispute with the former secretary of defense and the president of the united states. >> the president is working towards uniting the country. >> this is not a time to find fault with somebody so much as it is try to figure out how we all come together. >> it is hard to divide the country unless there are two sides. i think by just blaming the

president, he's only looking at half of the equation. >> can we ask you a couple questions? >> no. >> do you agree with mattis that the president is a threat? >> i have not heard the remark. i'd have to take a look at it and see what the context is. >> can you comment as the member of a critical committee? >> i haven't read it yet so -- >> i haven't seen it. >> i have a phone call. i've got to get to. >> leader mcconnell, can i ask you about your tweet about esper, how come you sent that? are you worried that the president is going to fire esper? last one, do you have comments about general mattis and the essay he wrote about trump? >> so, jonathan lemire, couple days ago, it was kasie hunt asking about the scene in lafayette square. yesterday, it was leigh ann caldwell asking about the letter from james mattis to the president of the united states, addressing everything that was

happening in lafayette square, and about the use of military on peaceful protesters, putting military in the streets. the dam broke when admiral mike mullen on monday published that piece. we've since heard from james mattis, general john allen, general martin dempsey yesterday. the former secretary under president trump, saying the military shouldn't be used for political purposes. and late for lunch, i guess, could be the title of a book about republicans in the time of trump. >> not the best look. yes, that lunch will get held for them if they were a few minutes late, i'm sure. >> you'd think. >> what we're seeing is a number of the highly decorated and well respected military veterans from leadership positions, in the department of defense, come out and really condemn the president's behavior in the last week, particularly the way lafayette square was cleared on monday and the threats to use

the military on american citizens. mattis, in particular, because he served with the president more recently, seemed to resonate. it put a lot of republicans in a difficult position. they are now going to be asked, every day, about whether or not they agree with him. you know, some were willing to take the bait. senator murkowski did criticize the president yesterday and suggested that she's not sure she'll be able to support him this fall. didn't take long for the president to hit back on twitter, saying something along the lines of, not many people know where they will be in two years, but i do. i'll be in alaska, come painala for whoever her primary opponent turns out to be. this is why republicans have been reluctant to speak out, the fear that the president will come after them with a tweet, or try to mobilize his base. he remains very popular among hard-core republicans. senators have been reluctant to criticize him for that very reason. we will see if this continues in

the days ahead, and what other powerful voices may step out. or, perhaps, if secretary mattis illustrates his concerns with some examples, that maybe the american people doesn't know. that's striking that he hasn't done that yet. undoubtedly, he has scenes, i'm sure most of them, or some of them, we declassified, he could talk about and could illustrate some of the behavior he witnessed from the president that could resonate further. of course, the president's former chief of staff, john kelly,al wei also weighed in yesterday, said the president was misremembering the circumstances of mattis' dismissal. he defended his former colleague and, again, questioned the president's leadership. >> you know, katty kay, you see those republicans walking past in silence, while we are in the middle of what some of the most respected generals, military leaders, admirals have said over

the last week is an infection point. a possible constitutional crisis that could remake this republic, if people do not begin speaking out against the president of the united states. yet, there is silence from most of those republicans. there's a certain dante quote about people remaining silent in a time of a moral crisis. that seems to be the republican party right now. >> yeah. i mean, if you thought that general mattis' letter was going to lead to a coopkind of flood s of republicans saying, "oh, my goodness, now we can speak out, too. we feel this moment has come, when the country is in this moment of crisis." and opinion polls are showing us supporters are moving away from the president. it doesn't seem to have triggered many of them. even lisa murkowski who said she

was concerned and supported general mattis' comments, when asked, are you going to support the president, she said say, "no, of course, i can't." it is a binary choice, either you support what general mattis has said in that statement, or you support donald trump. i don't see how you can be torn between the two. they're almost diametrically opposed positions, trump and mattis are taking on this issue. so -- but she is one of the very few who has even spoken out at all. and you wonder, you do wonder, when you see those republicans walking past the cameras, totally silent, thinking to themselves, what are they thinking about, how history will record this particular moment in america? let's say donald trump does not win in november, which he might not. the polls aren't looking great for him at the moment. let's say he doesn't win in november. what do they start saying on november 4th, after the election

night? >> yeah. >> it is going to be really interesting to watch, whether they're still quite as silent then. >> i've said for several years, book publishers should be prepared after donald trump leaves the white house for a flood of books, memmemoirs, abo how i saved america, how i won the war, how i stood up to the worst instincts of donald trump, sort of the approach we've seen some leaders when they leave washington in the age of trump. they say, "well, you should have seen all the things i stopped him from doing." well, mitch mcconnell and the rest of the gang walking past in silence, they're not going to be able to escape those clips six months from now. they're just not. it's remarkable, that they remain silent because they foea a tweet. coming up, "washington post"'s david ignatius joins us with his important, new column on why mattis and mullen toppled

their bridge of silence. it's a must-read. "morning joe" back in a moment.

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we're now at a stage in the middle of our pandemic that the united states has been going through, where twice as many americans have died of the pandemic than died in combat deaths, u.s. troops in world war i. gene, we're in the middle of a pandemic. we're also in the middle of a social crisis. hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets, and they're doing important things because they're changing americans' views in extraordinarily important ways. but at the same time, there is a concern, a growing concern, that we're going to see a spike in cases, a dramatic spike, especially in black communities, following these protests, where,

you know, huge, huge numbers of people are in tight, confined spaces. not so long ago, we used to freak out when somebody would take a photo picture of a beach. how do we balance this moving forward, knowing we're in a health care crisis, and knowing that it is black americans, especially older black americans, who are going to suffer the most for any coming spikes? >> well, demonstrators i saw, most were wearing masks. there was not 6 foot social distancing, but it was more distance than normally i would expect at a protest like that. yeah, you're right, there are going to be more cases. this is going to cause a spike, i think. the problem is trying to hold back a tidal wave. this is spontaneous, sort of spilling into the streets of peop

people. i don't think anything was going to stop. it will eventually stop on its own accord, but i think it is just going to happen. >> all right. ahead, we're going to have the latest on defense secretary mark esper's job status after he tried to distance himself from president trump's photo-op outside of a church this past week. plus, the lead prosecutor in the george floyd case, minnesota's attorney general, keith ellison, will be our guest. "morning joe" will be right back. effortless is the lincoln way. so as you head back out on the road, we'll be doing what we do best. providing some calm amidst the chaos. with virtual, real-time tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. for a little help, on and off the road. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, we'll make up to 3 payments on your behalf. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, as business moves forward,

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george floyd's story has been the story of black folks. because ever since 401 years ago, the reason we could never be who we wanted and dreamed of being is you kept your knee on our neck. what happened to floyd happens every day in this country, and education and health services and in every area of american life. it's time for us to stand up in george's name and say, "get your knee off our necks." the reason why we are marching all over the world is we were like george. we couldn't breathe. not because there was something

wrong with our lungs, but that you wouldn't take your knee off our neck. we don't want no favors. just get up off of us, and we can be and do whatever we can be. >> that's reverend al sharpton preaching as a civil rights leader, delivering the eulogy at yesterday's memorial service for george floyd in minneapolis. it was a stirring, a moving address, willie, where reverend sharpton, on behalf of millions of black americans, said, "get your knee off our necks." of course, he wasn't just talking about policing. he talked about education. two americas when it came to education. two americas when it came to health care. two americas when it came to

policing. you look at the numbers. the numbers are stark, whether you talk about the quality of education that white children get compared to black children. if you talk about health care outcomes. health care coverage. white families compared to black families. if you look at just society in general, there are two americas. this is something that, again, thankfully, we're seeing in the poll that came out this morning, that more white americans are beginning to understand, certainly when it comes to the issue of policing in black communities. >> yeah. i thought reverend sharpton captured exactly the message that a lot of us have been hearing for two weeks. that is that the horrifying death of george floyd was just the latest incident.

again, yes, about police brutality. yes, in the way police treat and react to african-americans in our society. but as reverend sharpton said, this goes back 401 years to 1619 and all the problems and all the knees that have been on the necks, literally and figuratively, of african-american people in this country, and all the ways that reverend sharpton laid out in his speech and all the ways you laid out there. that's what i'm hearing from my friends. that's what i'm hearing in our community discussions, which is that this is not just about george floyd. he is the catalyst this time. this is about so much more. it is about systemic racism. it's about the way that white people, even friends, look at each other, look at african-american people differently and treat them differently. hopefully, if we take some good out of this, as gene robinson has been saying all morning, this cracks something open in this country, where we look at ourselves more deeply and change. still with us this morning, we have washington anchor for bbc

world news america, katty kay. and pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post," eugene robinson. joining our conversation, col n columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius. and senior news correspondent at wbur boston, and an msnbc contributor, kimberly atkins. a new abc/ipsos poll asked americans, do you approve or disapprove of the way donald trump is handling the response to george floyd's death in minneapolis. 32% approve, and 66% disapprove. 74% of americans feel george floyd's death was a, quote, sign of broader problems in the treatment of african-americans by police. 26% feel it was an isolated incide incident. as for the other major issue facing the country, the president's approval rating for his handling of the coronavirus remains at 39%. 60% disapprove.

so, joe, this is kind of what we've been getting at this morning, which is 74% of americans see something in the death of george floyd, in the killing of george floyd, that is much bigger than police violence. that it is about the way african-americans are viewed and treated in this country and have been for a long time. >> you know, kimberly, what is so dramatic is the change just between 2014 and now. 74% of americans see this as a broader problem, as this abc poll shows this morning, for policing in black communities. just six years ago, five years ago, i think it is, in ferguson, 60% of white americans did not think it was a broader problem. thought it was an isolated incident. it seems these last ten days have dramatically changed the attitudes of millions and millions of americans. >> yeah.

it's the last ten days. i think it is also the ensuing years, where we have seen so many instances of black people dying, unarmed black people dying at the hands of police, or people acting as if they were police, that is part of that change. we've seen the change reflected within the last ten days. these protests may have been very different if they were just people of color, if they were just black people protesting in black communities. that is not what we've seen. we have seen a broad array of people from different, you know, geographically diverse, ethnically diverse, racially diverse, group of people who have been speaking out against the injustice. we've seen protests take place all over the world. so, clearly, there has been a sea change here. i think a lot of reasons for that. there's been a lot of education about what is going on. the work of community members never stopped, even if it wasn't

making the headlines and, in trying to get people to understand what is happening. you see more pibuy-ins from pole departments. we've seen more police chiefs speaking out, saying they understand the pain people are feeling. they understand the injustice. they, too, felt the trauma when they saw george floyd being killed in the street. so will it make for permanent changes in policy? that remains to be seen. we have seen over and over again, there is outrage, then that outrage fades and nothing changes. but at least, at this point in time, it has the nation's attention, and it has the much broader support than we have seen in any other previous time. >> as we consider the 32% approval rating for president trump in his handling of these demonstrations, some of the criticism is coming from people who worked for him, members of the military. president trump's former chief of staff, general john kelly, is speaking out in support of former defense secretary james

mattis, after mattis criticized president trump's handling of those nationwide protests this week. in an interview with the "washington post," general kelly dismissed president trump's claim that he had fired general mattis from his post in late 2018. general kelly telling the "post," general kelly telling the "post,post, "post,," quote, the president did not fire him. the president did not fire him. he is confused. kelly tweeted a positive tweet about jim mattis until he started to see on fox news their interpretation of his letter, then he got nasty. jim mattis is an honorable man. president trump hitting back on twitter, writing, john kelly didn't know i was going to fire j james mattis, nor did he have knowledge of my asking for a letter of resignation. why would i tell him? he was not in my inner circle, was exhausted by the job and, in the end, clinked away into obscurit

obscurity. they all want to come back for a piece of the limelight, president trump said, of general john kelly. david ignatius, in your latest piece for the "post" entitled, "why mattis and mullen topped their bridge of silence, you write this. mattis' bridge of silence released wednesday, when he released a statement expressing the rage he has long felt as he watched trump demean the military and its professionally. mattis wrote for the history books, donald trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the american people, does not even pretend to try. instead, he tries to divide us. we are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. david, obviously, general mattis has gone out of his way to avoid criticizing president trump since he left as secretary of defense in december of 2018. what was it specifically about this moment that caused him to break that bridge of silence, as you say? >> i think it's been more and

more difficult, willie, for him, as president trump's behaviors become more erratic. he continued in three public appearances i had with him last year to speak of a duty of silence that he felt he had, not to directly criticize the president. but that just was blown away this week. i think there were several factors. first, just the egregious nature of what the president was proposing to do, to use the uniform military to call out full-time troops in what would essentially be a national response. he suggested he was going to put general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, in charge of this effort to dominate the streets. something snapped. something snapped first for admiral mullen, mike mullen, the former chairman joint chiefs of

staff. he wrote a piece kwfor the "atlantic" and said, "i can't keep silent." he was trying not to use his former military status to criticize the president. couldn't do it anymore. wrote that piece. general mattis has been thinking and anguishing about when would be the time for him to speak out. i think he decided this was the time. the challenge to the military's professionalism, independence, was so large. the anger that was felt by african-americans, but everyone who has seen that video of the knee on the neck, knows the truth, the injustice that was done here. mattis is among them. so i think he did finally speak out. then you also have to note the role that was played inside the pentagon by general milley, the chief of staff. didn't look good, to have him wandering around in his battle fatigues on monday, when president trump had his photo-op at the church. i think milley understood.

more to the point, milley had been trying as hard as he could for days to convince the president not to do what he wanted to do. not to invoke the insurrection act of 1807, but to keep this in the control of the governors. i think general mattis knew that milley was fighting this fight hard on the inside. i think admiral mullen knew that. what we had this week was really a revoke of the military establishment, which tries so hard to stay out of politics. this week, they felt they just couldn't. they had to come in and say their piece. it had a pretty dramatic effect. >> you know, david, let's talk a little bit more and have you just explain military culture a little bit more before donald trump and during donald trump, and what that military culture will be like after donald trump. one of the great honors of my life was representing the first congressional district of florida, and we had nas pensacola, whiting field,

eggland air force base. i spent a great deal of time around military leaders. i was on the armed services committee. you know, even growing up, i was taught by retired navy guys from nas pensacola, who decided, in retirement, to teach at pensacola catholic high school. so i grew up around that culture. i knew, and every other member of congress knew, especially surrounded by military leaders, to never ask them a political question. "hey, what do you think about what bill clinton is doing?" it was just inappropriate. you never crossed that line. if you ever got too close to that line, a general or an

admiral would glare at you. behind closed doors, with nobody else in the room. just to push back, going, "we do our jobs. you civilians do your jobs. don't ask me about politics." i think, in part, that background is why when i saw esper, and even images of milley walking around, of all the things i saw that day, other than the beating up of the people in lafayette park, the gassing people, as far as imagery goes, it was shocking to see the sec def standing there. shocking to see milley walking around in his fatigues. on city streets in the united states of america. can you talk about your decades and decades of experience with the military, starting with your father? just -- >> well --

>> what a radical departure this is. >> i've been lucky enough to travel -- joe, i've been lucky enough to travel for some years with our military overseas in these difficult wars that they've been fighting. i'm always struck by their absolute adherence to professionalism. these were difficult fights, often thankless fights, but after vietnam, our military was caught up in politics. it was a terrible period for the military. they never want to go back to anything like that. so they prize this status of being separate. they deeply want to defend it. over the last three years, there have been a series of events in which the military seems to be politicized. an effort to pull the troops to the borders, part of president trump's desire to secure the border.

there was the presidential intervention in the eddie gallagher s.e.a.l. case that seemed to politicize that. there was the move out of syria, which secretary mattis took so personally, which he felt was interfering with our military relations with allies, to people whom we had given our word. this began to eat away at people. it was eating at the thing that they think distinguishes the u.s. military above all. often, generals will say to you, in other countries, where the military is used for political purposes, to put down dissent, people hate the military. we never want that to happen to us. i've heard that two or three times this week, as people tried to explain how and whoi thy the moved to where they did. to your point, joe, they are trying to protect something that they think is at the core of their mission, but also is what

the country needs and expects them to do. that's the way they see it under our constitution. it was in danger this week. they fought back. i think one final thing. our military is one of the most successfully integrated institutions in our country. you see black and brown faces everywhere, every level of command. you see men and women now at every level of command. the military is an institution that works. you saw some of our senior african-american members of the military issuing statements that were obviously cleared with their chiefs of staff, just to express solidarity with people around the country who are so angry and wounded by these protests. you finally saw general milley, on tuesday, send out a statement to all the troops, from the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, essentially saying, "we are all in this together. you know, every color, every creed, we all swore an oath to

the constitution. we stand behind the values of the constitution. that's who we are. that's what we're going to keep doing." to me, that was the moment that you knew that something had snapped, and president trump didn't realize that, he risked a much sharper division with the military. >> you brought up vietnam, david. of course, the military standing after vietnam with the american public was at a low point. all these years later, the military is one of the few institutions still trusted by most americans. for good reason. they can't do their jobs without the support of the american people. so great insights. i greatly appreciate your insights on the past week. let's bring in -- i texted reverend al during the beginning of this segment, asked if we could speak to him about yesterday's memorial service. he kindly agreed. rev, thank you so much.

tell us what you saw yesterday at the service. tell us how the family is feeling and how you feel the nation is doing ten days into these protests. >> well, you know, it was a very sad occasion for the family because this was actually the first time they saw the casket. to see a loved one laying in the casket, though it was not a viewing on yesterday, is understandably traumatic. and then they're going to have a private ceremony in north carolina tomorrow, and then we all meet in houston tuesday for the final funeral and burial. walk in there with eric garner's family and other families that have gone through this reminded me how long we've been fighting this. but when i look now and see law enforcement officials taking a knee, and when i see as many

white as blacks marching, i feel that we're at a moment, pregnant with the possibilities of really changing policing and changing criminal justice. because i think more americans across racial lines and economic lines get it. what i was trying to do is give comfort to the family in my eulogy, but speak to the broader american family that has been so i dried divided and inflamed by president. they need to understand that someone who fought as long as i have sees hope. because i see people that were never part of this process, protestin protesting, saying, no. i understand what they're saying, and we need to do something about it, even if i don't agree with all the ways. all of us are against looting and violence. none of us are suggesting that's the way. we may have different tactics, but we have to head to the same table and have a meal that all

americans can equally eat from and not feel and not know that there's been a part of society on our necks, limiting who we could be. >> rev, it's willie. good to see you this morning. thanks for calling in. you did a beautiful job, as we all knew you would, in your yule y eulogy. something stayed with me from when we talked a few days ago. you said you were as hopeful as you have been in a long time. when you see the demonstrations and the street, you see a broad swath of this country in terms of age, in terms of race. that people have been woken up to something in the wake of the death of george floyd. could you speak to that and how you turn that hope into action, how you turn this public opinion, the support we're talking about in the polls this morn manage, into policy change and making the country better? >> we must stay together. i think that the reason i see such hope in this is we've not

had a more inflexible president. it seems that every time he attacks, the crowds grow, the protests grow, the resolve grows. that's when change happens. when you go against something that seems improvable and you won't stop. as i said in the eulogy, i remember years ago, when we were doing a march, a young white female, looked like in her 20s, yelled at me, "go home," with the n-word. i remember last week when i was there in minneapolis, a young white girl, about 11 years old, tugged my suit coat jacket. i turned around and looked, and i braced myself to be heckled. she looked at me and said, "no justice, no peace," with her little fist up. i knew something had changed in america. if we can stay together, that's why martin luther king iii and i are trying to build this national march, nonviolent, on

the anniversary of his father's march on washington, "i have a dream," in august of this year. if you're violent or a looter, you're not invited. this is for those of all races that want to continue this move until policies change. until laws change. until enforcement changes, where we're equally protected under the law for everybody. >> rev, kimberly atkins is with us and has a question for you. >> hi, rev. during the eulogy yesterday, you talked about the president using the bible as a prop. i, in a town hall meeting hosted by wbor last night, we were talking to members of the community. they say, "you know what, we need to bring the churches. we need to bring people of faith, religious organizations, on board." it's hard. some of the younger ministers will come and be a part of the conversation and join organizers and protesters, but some of the older guard won't.

we see the president signaling to white evangelicals, rev. how do you get members of the religious community to come on board and see what you're talking about? >> well, don't forget, the famous historic letter from a birmingham jail by dr. martin luther king was to a white, moderate minister in the church. it was telling them it wasn't time. some of them ended up coming along, and some of the young white ministers just moved without them. i think that's what we have to do, as we mobilize toward august 28th. as we continue mobilizing in the church world. we've talked to many faith leaders, black, white, christian, jewish. a rabbi has been talking and tweeting at me all through this process. we cannot expect faith leaders to not follow the scriptures. it is clear, it is our duty as

faith leaders to care for those that are suffering. when i looked at this 75-year-old white man being brutalized by police in buffalo, new york, my mind went, kimberly and joe, to the good samaritan, where people passed him by, walking on the side of the road, walking as he laid on the side of the road. we cannot be guilty as faith leaders of being the ones that pass by men like that 75-year-old man, standing up for police reform. that's in the bible. that has nothing to do with what i believe personally. that's in the book they preach from. >> reverend al, thank you so much for what you did yesterday. thank you so much for talking to us today. we really appreciate it. god bless you. still ahead, while several military leaders are speaking out now, our next guest, obviously, was ahead of the curve. retired admiral william mccraven raised red flags about the president early on. he joins us next on "morning

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i remember in 2004, going over to cover the 60th anniversary of d-day. at the time, the united states was, obviously, in the iraq war. there had been protests against the united states' involvement there in france, in germany, across europe, and an open hostility toward american leadership. i didn't know what to expect when i went over there. after we landed and got up to normandy on june the 5th, the night before the anniversary, i was walking around with veterans who were met in the streets of normandy by young children with flowers, with their parents behind them. they would hand the flowers to the veterans, with american flags flying from every house.

they would say, "i just want to thank you. my parents have told me that we would not be free today if it weren't for what you did." the vets would be breaking down crying. the parents would be breaking down crying. it's just extraordinary. it was -- it's something that we need to stop every june 6th and remember. i took my kids last year when we covered it again for this network. it was one of the most moving things. well, it was the most moving thing that i've been honored to be able to do since working here. i want to show you a clip of a prayer that was delivered by fdr ahead of d-day which, of course, june 6th, 1944, 76 years ago tomorrow. as depicted in the award-winning short documentary "operation overlord, oss, and the battle for france."

>> with my blessing, we shall prevail. overly unholy forces of our enemy, help us to conquer those of greed and racial arrogances. lead us to the saving of our country. with our sister nations, enter world unity, that will spell a sure peace. a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy man. and a peace that will let all men live in freedom. reaping the just rewards of their honest toil. >> let's bring in now retired four-star admiral william mccraven. admiral, the thing that struck me as i was talking to these older veterans, who were just

kids, 18, 19, 20. some of them 17. some of them lied to the draft board so they could participate in the liberation of europe. what are your thoughts this morning, as we're a day away from the 76th anniversary? talk about the oss' part in this extraordinary operation. >> joe, first, thanks for having me on. as you know, we scheduled this a couple weeks ago, before all the turmoil and the tragedy of the last week and a half. but i think it is important that we remember these solemn moments in american history. when you think of d-day, 150,000 soldiers, over 190,000 sailors participated in the largest amphibious operation in the history of warfare. getting a foothold in france, then moving on to defeat the nazis. to your point, the office of strategic services, the oss, really played a key role. the oss was the forerunners of

today's cia and special operations, headed by general bill donovan, who both the cia and the u.s. special operations consider kind of the father of the organization. those remarkable men and women in the oss fought behind the lines to delay the german advance. they blew up bridges and trains and warehouses, all in an effort to delay the german response to normandy. of course, they had been part of the war effort for years leading up to it. over 500 oss operatives and special operations operatives from our british colleagues were part of that mission to delay and stop and be an integral part of the d-day landing. >> speaking of british colleagues, catkatty kay is wits and has a question for you. >> admiral, i guess d-day stands out as a moment when the world really, you know, worked together in incredible coordination of bravery, under the american leadership. let's bring us to this day,

where i fear that's crumbling. i walked down to the white house the other night, walked past military vehicles on the streets of washington, saw the military police outside the white house, and troops on the corners of this capital city. i thought, there's been so much attention. reverend al referred to it yesterday at the memorial service. there has been a lot of attention around the world to these protests. many of it we've seen protesters in support in paris, berlin, london. much has been supportive. i was concerned seeing those troops, american troops, used against the american people or poised to, that other autocratic leaders in other countries might look at that as cover for themselves. you know, america is still a great power. what it does, for better or worse, can be impimplicated. i was concerned you might have other countries look at america, in countries where for decembth,

the white house can do it, we can, too. >> is it a possibility? >> it is a concern. i was pleased to see jim mattis, mike mullen, john kelly, to come out and reinforce what we know are the principles of the military. we raise our right hand and swear an oath to the constitution of the united states. it is not to the president of the united states. it is to the constitution. again, i have been pleased with the voices that have been raised against the potential for the insurrection act, and to recognize that we are all americans. reverend al, i thought, said it beautifully when he talked about hope and us all coming together around the same table. trust me, every man and woman in uniform recognizes that we are all americans, and the last thing they want to do as military men and women is to stand in the way of a peaceful protest. again, great to see the voices being raised. a little bit of, hopefully, sanity coming back to this very, very tragic situation.

>> admiral mccraven, it is willie geist. great to see you. i want to ask more about d-day in a moment, but general mattis in the memo he wrote, said it was an abuse of executive authority, to clear that square and to put some members of the national guard in the street and use them the way the president did. do you agree with the general's assessment? >> well, i don't know whether -- i'd have to go back and check the legal application of abuse of executive authority. but what i can tell you is, when you're in the military, there are three criteria for every decision we make. it has to be moral, legal, and ethical. ethical, you have to follow the rules. legal, you have to follow the law. moral, you have to follow what you know to be right. either way, that's just not right. you're not going to use, whether it's a military or the national guard or law enforcement, to clear peaceful american citizens for the president of the united

states to do a photo-op. there is nothing, you know, morally right about that. >> admiral, getting back to d-day and the oss, i, too, as joe talked about, i don't think i've had chills stronger ever in my life than when i stood on omaha beach and looked out at that water when i visited there about 25 years ago. looking out and thinking about the sacrifice that those young americans and those young canadiens and australians and brits made together on that beach. but you're struck, as you study it, the size and the scope of this mission, and the fact they were able to keep it under wraps for so long, from the germans. can you speak a little bit to how that was carried out, when you look at the sheer number of vehicles, the number of ships that made that trip across the water, to land on those beaches. how were they able to keep it under wraps and to keep it a surprise to hitler? >> well, i think you should know, there were two potential

landing spots. there was a tremendous amount of effort that went into operational deception, so that the germans never really knew exactly where the u.s., canad n canadian, and british forces were going to land. of course, the germans still had pretty strong defenses along the ten-mile stretch of land that was normandy, and the five landing beaches. the casualties at omaha alone were in the thousands. 50% casualties in terms of men lost and wounded and missing in action. so this was a huge part of the plan, was the operational deception. obviously, it worked as well as it could under the circumstances. you're talking a very short channel crossing. the germans clearly knew when the allied forces had launched, but it was too late by that time to reinforce normandy. so, again, great operational security. >> admiral, david ignatius is

with us and has a question for you. david? >> admiral mccraven, i want to ask, you watched the events of the last few years as carefully as anyone. our military, professionalism, have been under some attack. i would greatly value, and i know our viewers would, your assessment of whether there has been damage, whether there is some repair that needs to be done now after these three difficult years. >> yeah, thanks, david. there always has to be reflection. i mean, the military is an organization, as you well know, that assesses everything we do. every time you go out on a mission, you come back and reassess whether you did that mission correctly. so, you know, i guarantee you, mark milley, and we had a discussion earlier about mark milley. i'll tell you, mark milley, one of the finest officers i ever served with, and a very good friend. he is in a challenging position right now. i thought his letter to the troops yesterday was spot on.

i am not concerned, honestly, about the future of the military. because, again, the military believes in following the constitution. that is what we swore an oath to. but we will constantly reassess. this is part of the process, and i know general milley and the service chiefs, the combatant commanders, and all the rank and file, every single day, will look at issues like, you know, how are we doing with race relations? how are we doing with gender relations? this is a constant part of what we do in the military. >> admiral, so many people speak of the greatest generation. i'm just curious. i had the honor of meeting you years ago, when you were out training s.e.a.l.s. i'm curious. as we talk about the greatest generation, looki ining back, t about the men and women you've trained through the years, that you've served with, and that you

have led into battle. just how extraordinary they have been in this generation. >> yeah, thanks, joe. i've said for years that i'm probably the biggest fan of the millenials you'll ever meet. and i always laugh at this narrative that, somehow, these millenials are soft, you know, entitled little snowflakes. you've never seen them in a fire fight in afghanistan, i'm quick to point out. when we start to lose a little bit of hope about the country, i think all we have to do is look to this generation. again, reverend al's remarks about the group of people that are marching peacefully, they are of all color, all gender, all races, allethnicity. this is a remarkable generation. they will be this century's greatest generation. so as troubling and as trying as these times are, i'm confident we'll get through it because the young men and women today understand, again, what their

parents and grandparents have gone through. they understand that they now own the mantle of this country. i think they're going to do a great job taking us forward. >> all right. retired admiral william mccraven, thank you so much for being with us. thank you for your example and your leadership. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, joe. all right. on this day, before the d-day anniversary, nbc senior correspondent tom brokaw gives us his thoughts on that defining moment for the greatest generation s, our country, and the world. >> i was a child of world war ii, living on an army base when the war ended. by the time of the 40th an seriousry of d-day, i was anchor of "nbc nightly news." i decided to go to normandy for the 40th anniversary. it changed my life. you guys haven't been back here in 40 years. >> right. >> that's right, tom. first time back. >> yeah. >> i walked the beaches with veteran gino murley, who earned

the medal of honor, and harry garden. omaha beach, serene when we were there. on june 6th, 1944, it was a killing field. these were the only d-day photographs. >> see you on the beach. >> steven spielberg and tom hanks captured the mayhem and the terror in "saving private ryan." >> move your men off the beach! >> you could hear the shells screaming overhead, you could see the assault craft coming in all along the edge of the beach. >> door went down. >> right. >> what's the first thing you saw? >> we saw a dead medic floating in the water. and believe you me, i was petrified. i couldn't talk. i couldn't move. until the sergeant gave the orders, "move out." >> the chaos and the death went on all day long. the longest day. allies were now taking the fight to the germans.

ray lambert was a hero medic on the beach, dragging the wounded behind a large boulder to protect them from the germans who were firing from above. >> there are not many of these kinds of plaques dedicated to combat medics. sergeant arnold ray lambert set up the first casualty collection point on omaha beach. >> yup. >> that will live forever. >> yup. >> no greater legacy, ray. >> yeah, yeah. >> you're a great american. >> well, thank you, sir. >> god saved you for a good reason. >> well, i hope i've done the right thing. >> there are many tributes to that day, and the fighting still to come. none more memorable than the american cemetery overlooking omaha. on one of my visits, i tried to sum it all up. ♪ >> this is why we're here. here above the beaches of

normandy, just beyond the water, that brought liberty at a great sacrifice. for those who survived that day, and for so many others, this is a journey of honor and remembrance. now, in their late 80s and 90s, their lives are coming to a close. but their legacy can never be dimmed. ♪ i am robert strickler.

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the iranian government yesterday freed michael white, a navy veteran who had spent nearly two years detained inside iran. president trump confirmed white's release yesterday, tweeting that white is now in zurich and will be on a u.s. plane shortly. white's release comes a day after an iranian scientist, who had been held by u.s. immigration authorities for months, arrived in iran in a prisoner swap. both men reportedly contracted coronavirus while in custody. mr. white was arrested in iran back in twoo2008 while visiting iranian woman he reportedly met online. he was sentenced ten years for

privacy violations and for insulting ayatollah khomeini but now on his way back home to the united states. back to the events in minneapolis. after yesterday's memorial service for george floyd, joining us now, the mayor of neighboring st. paul, minnesota, melvin carter. mayor carter, it is great to have you with us this morning. what can you tell us about the demonstrations in your city last night and how different did they look from demonstrations, say, a few days ago or a week ago? >> thanks for having me on. yes, i was at the memorial service yesterday and it was a beautiful and heart-felt service. you know, we have seen a number of demonstrations across our city over the past few days, and we are really appreciative that our residents, that our activists, that our community members who are just understandably heart broken, as i am, about the devastating video showing george floyd's brutal an unnecessary murder, that we have decided i think as a community to channel this energy into constructive efforts

to make the world better and try to prevent this from happening again. >> mayor carter, some of our viewers may not know a couple of things. number one, that you were the first african-american mayor of st. paul, minnesota. number two, you are the son of a police officer. so what have those conversations been like over the last ten days with your father? can you shed some light on to what you all have discussed and what you talked about going forward, how things may change? >> that's right. well, you know, you have to know that i ran for mayor as probably one of relatively few elected leaders across the country who know what it feels like to be pulled over for driving while black. so the conversations with my father didn't start ten days ago, they startled every 40 yeas ago as every african-american community has to have those conversations with thai children. my father, every police officer i know, all the way to our police chief looks to that video and sees it as reprehensible.

our chief made a strong statement yesterday where he shared publicly he told his officers if you find anything honorable in that video, bring me your badge because you don't belong on our police department. so we've had real conversations. my father has taught me from the beginning that a police officer's job is to help when people are hurting, that you're always on duty to do that, you are always responsible to do that, and those officers i think clearly failed at their most basic responsibility of a police officer and they did it in a way that we all got to see it. so that's why so many of us are steadfast in our belief that they must be held accountable. >> mayor carter, kimberly atkins is with us and she has a question for you. kimberly. >> hi, mayor carter. it seems that when we talk about solutions to the problem of black people dying at the hands of police, a lot of plans and proposals are offered, but at the end of the day it comes to

the issue that for use of force the standard is the perception of threat. we have 400 years of evidence that the perception of black people being threatening is the problem. i know that when i have an interaction with police i think about that, as a black man i'm sure you do, too. how do you get to the root of changing the perception that black people are somehow inherently threatening? >> that's a great point. i mean if the standard is perception of threat, in my existence, my oxygen is a threat to you, then we're all always in danger. that's the danger that so many people live in on a day-to-day basis. if you look at george floyd, if you look at that video, and he didn't -- he tried not to struggle, he tried to comply, he tried to not be resistant, and the paradox is had he fought for his life, had he fought in those last moments his struggle would

have been the justification that was used as an excuse for his extermination. that's the pain that we live in every single day, and that's what we're fighting against. here in st. paul, i'll tell you we have worked to revise, completely rewrite our use of force policies in the first 100 days of my administration, but part of this is as we talk about training, i'm firmly of the belief if you looked at that video, if you looked at the casteel video, if you look at so many of the videos it is not a training problem. if you have to train someone not to do the things we have seen these officers do on these videos, then they don't belong on a police department in the first place. it starts with how we hire officers. it starts with who we hire, if they're people who understand and know our community, who understand the beauty of our community, who feel comfortable and safe in our community to start with, i always share with folks if our lives on the line depend on our police officers showing up and being able to help us fix what is wrong in a moment's notice, we're better

off if they show up knowing what is right in our communities. that's i think critical, making sure we allow police officers, police chiefs to fire officers who fall below our standards is critical, and making sure everyone knows when someone does something egregious as we saw in that video last week, they will be held accountable. >> mayor carter, this is gene robinson. don't newly-hired officers take their cues and learn their culture from veteran officers? how do you change the attitudes of veteran officers who look on their patrol responsibilities as if they were an army of occupation rather than, you know, rather than police to protect citizens? how do you change those attitudes, especially if they were entrenched? >> you know, that's a great point because that video last week clearly shows more than just a couple of bad apples, as

we've heard some people argue. it shows one officer pressing his knee to george floyd's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds while three other officers either help hold him down or guard the scene while he does that. that is clearly emblematic of more than a bad apple. that's about a culture. i hear our police chief here, todd axdale is his name, he always talks about the bank of trust that we have with our community members. this goes back to my conversations with my father growing up who would always say that the trust that has to flow between community and law enforcement is our most precious and sacred public safety asset. our chief always talks about the fact that before you ever make a withdrawal you bet evter hope y have made years and years of deposits in that bank of trust. our chief always asks our officers three questions about their action, were they reasonable, were they necessary, were they respectful? that's our standard in st. paul and the standard we seek to

achieve. we know that even though george floyd's death didn't happen in st. paul, even though it wasn't a st. paul officer, when we see something like that whether it is in st. paul or in new york like eric garner, when we see these things play out particularly over the last decade, it sets all departments back with regard to the trust we have. my father once said if you know a neighborhood, if you grew up there, if you are raising your children there, if you go to church and grocery shop there, you can find a whole lot of reasons not to shoot someone. that's what we need. we need police officers all over our country who aren't looking for justifiable reasons to shoot someone or justifiable reasons to impose a choke hold on someone. we need officers who are looking for justifiable reasons not to. >> mayor melvin carter of st. paul, minnesota. great to have your perspective on this morning. thanks for being with us. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me on. still ahead on "morning joe," the may jobs report due out in about half an hour.

it is expected to show an unemployment rate approaching nearly 20% in this country. we will bring you the exact numbers as they cross. we also will be joined shortly by senator cory booker of new jersey and the attorney general of minnesota, keith ellison. "morning joe" is coming right back. we live in uncertain times. however, there is one thing you can be certain of. the men and women of the united states postal service. we're here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. every day, all across america, we deliver for you. and we always will. i geh. common bird.e. ooh look! over here! something much better. there it is. peacock, included with xfinity x1. remarkable. fascinating. -very. it streams tons of your favorite shows and movies,

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the table right now. >> all options are on the table. okay. the trump administration leaving all options on the table when they're dealing with, let's see, north korea, venezuela, iran and american civilians. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, june 5th. with us we have white house reporter for "the associated press" jonathan lemire. washington anchor for bbc world news america katie kay, and pulitzer prize winning columnist and associated editor of "the washington post" eugene robinson along with willie and me. mika has the morning off. willie, you see the response that the white house has given and we can talk to jonathan lemire about this. there are still a few people inside the white house who believe that what the president did on monday was the right thing to do, it was great

politically for him. they're obviously going all in on the law and order thing, thinking this is 1968. again, lyndon johnson was president in 1968 and hubert humphrey was vice president. so law and ordinary was used against a sitting incumbent vice president when the country was on fire back then. but you look at the poll numbers, we're going to be showing an abc news poll that just came out a few minutes ago, that show that people overwhelmingly -- not only overwhelmingly oppose the president's approach to this, but also overwhelmingly support the protesters, and i guess what baffles me so much is why the president looking at these numbers, looking at where two-thirds of america is, why

the president can't try to be more of a unifier. why he can't try to bring -- it is never too late to change. i know it seems impossible for him to do, but, again, if two-thirds of americans are opposing your approach and generals, just every day more generals, more military men and women coming out criticizing that approach, why not -- why not try a different direction? >> yes, a new abc poll out just this morning, joe, shows 32%, 32% of americans support the way the president has handled these protests in the aftermath of the death of george floyd. as you said, general john kelly, the president's former chief of staff, now he's out yesterday con frmi confirming general mattis's version of events, that he, in fact, resigned, not fired. you have people, generals, not just from outside the military, but who also worked before and beside donald trump for a couple

of years coming out and criticizing him in a very public way. jonathan lemire, as you listen to the white house press shop yesterday talking about all options being on the table, they continue to drill down into the idea that they may put military into the streets, that they keep all options on the table, talking again about protesters and demonstrators who are overwhelmingly peaceful. they want to keep the military option on the table for american protesters in the streets. >> that's right, willie. yesterday was the memorial service for floyd in minneapolis which featured an absolutely gut-wrenching and heartbreaking 8 minutes and 46 seconds of silence, the amount of time that the officer's knee was on his neck. the president made not one mention of floyd on twitter or anything else. we didn't have public events yesterday, we didn't hear from him directly, but he was very active on twitter.

as you just played, a white house spokesman made it clear the military option was still on the table. they're still focusing on the unrealiness of a small sub set of the protesters. they're ignoring the underlying cause to this point, they're fixating on some of the clashes we are still seeing in american cities. to joe's point earlier, it is a white house and election campaign leaning into this law and order narrative, that the president is the tough candidate here, he is going to show strength. it is donald trump's perception of strength and might because he is using american forces and federal law enforcement on american citizens, but they believe it can still work. that new poll that i know we will talk about suggests that american people do not necessarily agree. certainly there is concern for the building about some of the optics about how monday night went down. the president has complained bitterly to aides about the media coverage he has received for the way the park was cleared and the way he held that bible in front of the church.

in terms of an overall narrative it is something they want. they feel it is a contrast that they can win with some of the democratic mayors and governors who are seeing the protests happen in their streets. it also goes to show as a final point, it is a president without much of a playbook right now. they're flailing and grasping to try to change the subject here from this week and how the president in his mind, he fears that he looks afraid, cowardly, behind a heavily fortified white house and not being able to engage these protesters in any meaningful way. >> but this week has been an absolute disaster, and there are other ways to approach these protesters instead of confrontation. i know i am speaking -- i know this is obvious, but any white house aide that believes only having 32% of americans support your approach to one of the great crises of our time need --

need to leave the white house because the president's not being served well there. you could say the same thing about the pandemic. the president's numbers in this abc news are extraordinarily low when it comes to the pandemic. there is no getting around the fact that those are two of the biggest crises this country has faced since -- you take your pick, 1968, world war ii, and americans are opposed to the way he handled both of those crises and it is going to require a new start. but, you know, catie, i think in part what is driving such a dramatic change -- even the numbers, abc in this poll show how the numbers have changed on how white americans look at policing and look at police --

bad behavior by police officers. it has changed dramatically since even ferguson. this is, as i keep saying, this is a national issue that has shocked the consciousness of white americans, of black americans, of all americans, so much so it is much like the birmingham church bombing back -- i think it was in 1963, 1963 that changed so many minds, white minds especially on civil rights. but you tweeted something last night about an incident that happened in buffalo, and we're seeing these incidents every day. i will repeat, the overwhelming majority of the protesters are peaceful and they are to be commended. the overwhelming police officers are doing their jobs and trying to keep the peace and trying to

protect people's lives and property, but we're seeing, it seems, every day, catie, more examples of some police officers that are wildly out of control. as you tweeted last night after that senior citizen was shoved to the ground and was bleeding from his head, as you said, these -- and if we can show the videotape. catie, nobody stopped. they didn't even check. that man looked like he could have been dead. >> yeah. he's 75 years old and he had gone up to the police to ask them something clearly about the protest or maybe about their tactics, and he was clearly addressing some concern he had with them and they pushed him over. then it was slightly surreal. i had to keep going back to watch the video again and again to see if what i thought emerging from behind his head on the pavement really was blood,

but it is very clearly blood. you can slow the video down and you can see this pool of blood emerging behind his head. there are dozens of police officers around them and none of them do anything. they literally just walk past him. it is possible that one of them calls for some medical help. he talks into a walkie-talkie at one point. but nobody -- nobody bends down and says, are you okay or can we help you up, sir, or, you know, even checks that he is okay. i think it is images like that one, which is an old white guy, images, of course, the fact that we all saw the video of george floyd from multiple angles and it went on and on and on just as it did in that service last night, that 8 minutes and 46 seconds, and then we've seen the videos of police punching reporters that have gone all around the world, reporters from other countries, too. i think it is that, the combination of all of those incidents on video of police brutality, from protesters who

are clearly peaceful or reporters who are just doing their jobs, and i think it has been -- maybe america didn't need that wake-up call, maybe we should have been aware of this already, but i think it brought it home this time. still ahead on "morning joe," breaking news on the may economy. the may jobs number is due out minutes from now. we have the breakdown just ahead. first, senator booker is standing by. he joins the conversation. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. rbeight o no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. n-n-n-no-no hey mama, what's up? i only see one price on my phone bill. you're on t-mobile, taxes and fees are included. why can't all my bills be like this? i don't know mama. umph! with t-mobile, taxes and fees are included. and when you switch your family, get 4 lines of unlimited for just $35 a line.

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gene, i wanted to get your reaction to -- i talked about this abc news poll, but so many other polls are showing that this really is -- this is a moment in time when americans, white americans, white americans are waking up to the fact that what happened to george floyd wasn't an isolated incident. as i said in this latest poll,

but you can see it in other polls back during ferguson, most white americans thought ferguson was an isolated incident. most americans thought eric garner was an isolated incident. you know, like trayvon, it was an isolated incident. in fact, a lot of conservative media tried to defend george zimmerman as you remember. i remember being just distressed by all of the conservatives that immediately rushed to george zimmerman's side. at the beginning of this, i noticed so many conservative media even were immediately calling out the police here, and you see now many americans for the first time are saying, okay, what you have known when you had to talk to your young sons about the fact that they could be shot because they were black and what they needed to do if they were ever stopped in a car. do you think that these numbers

suggest that just like after selma, after the birmingham church bombing, do you think george floyd's death, his tragic death, his murder, do you think that that's awakening white americans and all americans to this police culture that risks the lives of black americans every day? >> i think it may have to. i'm certainly hopeful that it has. the other day, i guess wednesday, i went down to the -- to lafayette square where the protesters had been routed with, you know, mounted police and all of that nonsense on monday so that trump could have his -- president trump could have his photo op. you know, just in the crowd, it

was an incredibly diverse crowd, diverse in race, diverse in age, diverse in political views, and just people who felt they had to come out and say "enough." you cannot watch the video of what former officer derek chauvin and the other officers did to george floyd and be unmoved, and be not outraged. you can't watch it and not see that something -- that a terrible wrong is being committed. it is 8 minutes and 46 seconds. i mean it is an inteminably long time. i think it has resonated in a way that the earlier killings, even in their sum, right,

because these isolated incidents kept happening, obviously not in isolation, but this one has struck home clearly in a way that previous ones did not. you know, there have been demonstrations worldwide and in all 50 states and in hundreds of cities now. this is a major inflection point i think. you know, if we had good leadership and smart and compassionate leadership, i would be a bit more optimistic about the prospect of positive change in the short run, but i am -- i am fairly optimistic in the longer run because i think this is -- this has really changed people's attitudes. coming up, we're going to talk to minnesota's attorney general, keith ellison, about the criminal case against the four ex-officers charged with murdering george floyd. first, former presidential

candidate and u.s. senator cory booker joins the conversation. more importantly, corey, y, of course, a mayor of newark. i can't wait to get his insight on this crisis. "morning joe" back in a moment. t vo: we are ready

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years ago i went to march. now, i remember young white lady looked me right in the face and

said, [ bleep ] go home. but when i was here last thursday and i was headed back to the airport i stopped near the police station. and i was talking to a reporter, a young white girl -- she didn't look no older than 11 years old. she tagged my suit jacket. i looked around and i braced myself. she looked at me and said, "no justice, no peace." there's a different time. it is a different season. from the mouths of babes, no justice, no peace. let's bring in right now senator cory booker of new jersey. he's a member of both the foreign relations and judiciary committee. senator, it is so great to talk to you again. you know, you obviously have run

a presidential campaign, you are a united states senator. but for purposes of the discussion, why don't we just start off with the fact that you have been on the ground, man. you know only worked in the community, you were a mayor. talk about how all of this, how good policing, good community relations starts on the ground like you did it in newark. >> well, i think it is all about connection to the community, and we found out through our experiences in newark, the more you could establish those connections and that trust the more people know the police officers, they come from the community, they reflect the community, the better it is. not just for police/community relations, but actually keeping folks safe. >> so, senator, we've been talking this morning about an abc poll that came out. it talks about how 74% of americans now believe that what

happened to george floyd was, in fact, a much larger problem. it wasn't an isolated incident. compare that to ferguson when 60% of white people in 2015 thought what happened in ferguson and what happened in new york with eric garner were just isolated incidents. this, the last ten days, have they dramatically shaped how americans view race in america? >> well, i hope so. we're a nation that is in search of itself and its ideals. you know, it is tough for me in the rodney king verdicts that i was a college student, i was at stanford, and i just remember writing an article called "why have i lost control." it was a decade-plus of my life, i was one of these guys that by the time i was in 7th, 8th grade, i was over 6 feet tall. i just have all of this world crashing in me where i realize

people perceived me as a threat, followed me, security, and my black friends had the same experiences. by the time we witnessed that rodney king verdict where somebody was so viciously, savagely beaten, i just remember just losing it. i was in the streets marching peacefully and felt such anger. the challenge as i pulled out that column that i wrote, it could be written today, but there is a difference as you said. there is a consciousness that's growing in our country that we do not yet have equality under the law, that we do not have liberty and justice for all, and this is a moment. i don't want to have a college student now or a teenager now have to have the same pain that i have as 30 years have passed and nothing has changed. this is a. m moment, but the question is what will be done. that's why i'm grateful for kamala harris on the federal level because changes can be made at the state and local level, but the congressional black caucus, the house

judiciary committee, all of us have been working together to come out with some comprehensive -- working with civil rights organizations, legislation that can show, like the 1964 civil rights act, 1968 fair housing act, that we can actually pass big legislation to do the common-sense things that can help there to be more police accountability, more transparency, so that maybe the come people right now won't have the painful conversations i've had this week with my mentees, my nephews, with young black men in my life that -- or that had with me that you have to understand that this world will see you as a threat. we have to be aware that there's things when you go jogging, when you walk in central park to bird watch, there are things that are going to happen to you that are not fair, not just, that you need to be aware for your own safety. >> senator booker, willie geist. great to see you this morning. you began to answer my question, which is taking this moment, as

you have described it, and taking thinks soaring speeches and these bi racial speeches and turning it into something productive policy wise. some of it as you point is changing human behavior. from where you sit as both a senator and as a mayor, what practical changes can take place from government? we can talk about our culture. we can talk about the way people look at each other and trying to reform that behavior, that takes time obviously. but what can happen right now to bottle this moment and turn it into something practical and productive from a policy standpoint? >> yeah, as said clearly, i can't legislate you to love me but i can stop laws to st-- i c pass laws to stop you from lynching me. there has to be legal changes to our system like changing the

actual way that federal government holds police departments accountable, collecting data on police misconduct, police use of force. that means not allowing police officers to be immune to prosecution with civil action, changing section 242, changing qualified immunity. it means banning actions in this country such as racial profiling, choke holds, what got breonna taylor killed is that somebody can barge in my door right now undercover, you're right i'm going get up and fight if that happens. so these are the kind of practices that have led to the death, injury, assault on black bodies for a long time. so we think there's a specific number of -- a bucket of laws that people have been fighting for -- as a member of the cbc they've been fighting for it long before i got to congress, long before i was a mayor. these are things that are long

struggled for that now is the time to bring them to fruition. i'm committed to doing that. i think that this could be a moment, this could be the moment of struggle that we begin to see real reform in our country. none of us, i mean none of us should relent until our nation takes these strides towards greater equality in the law. >> cory, gene robinson is with us and has a question for you. gene. >> senator, just i want to drill down on just practical specific things. i mean can -- even with this congress and this degree of disfunction in the federal government, could we not just agree to ban choke holds or kneeling on the neck of a suspect, some of these sort of egregious use-of-force questions? couldn't some of those get solved now with the country clearly saying, "let's do

something"? >> well, i have to say this. there are still too many people sitting on the sidelines in the face of outrageous injustice. you just ripped off some things. i'll keep going. shouldn't you be a country where you don't shackle pregnant women in prison when they're giving birth? shouldn't we be a country where psychological professionals have concluded solitary confinement for children does permanent psychological damage, does harm to the psyche, other countries call it torture what we do in our prisons. shouldn't we be a nation where i look at these big bills we are doing with stimulus, literally trillions of dollars, it would not be that expensive to replace every lead service line in this country because we still have a nation where parents field that -- in fact, there's thousands of jurisdictions where children have more than twice the blood lead level of flint, michigan. when we start talking about the assaults on black bodies, the

number one indicator in america whether you live around a toxic site or not is not your socioeconomic status, it is your race, the health care you get, the shameful reality of america is the worst of industrial nations for maternal mortality, but black women are three, four times more likely to die in childbirth. i could go through every sector of our society and things are outrageous, but the problem we have is we have grown as a society too comfortable with savage injustice. we shouldn't have to tolerate things that don't just hurt black people, they actually drive up health care costs. they squelch human potential and productivity. a mind addled by lead costs this country in economic terms millions of dollars, not to mention missing out on the artistry and genius. so should we ban choke holds? yes. but you know this, we didn't get

civil rights legislation because of a bunch of folks come to the senate floor, got in a huddle and said, hey, we should do this. it wasn't strom thurmond, the longest filibuster in history, he didn't one day come to the senate floor and say, i have seen the light, let those people have some rights. no, it was demanded. not just by black folks. it was a broad-based coalition that finally made legislators unable to do what is just. that's why i'm hopeful in this moment, is because people are forcing this conversation, because the injustices we saw in a videotape, for every name we know there are thousands in america we don't know because they weren't captured on videotape. this is nothing new. this has been going on for generations. it is why i was in the streets when i was in college. so if enough people -- as was said, the problem today we have to repent for is not simply the v

vitriolic words, but it is for the actions of people. for dear friends of mine that are asking me what should i do, i have gotten more text messages and more calls, my biggest point is this is the question that should never go away. the same burning urgency, what can i do. we should always every day of our lives be struggling with the question, what can i do for others, and the ideals of this country that we fall so far short of in our institutions. all right. senator cory booker, as always, thank you so much for being with us today. we greatly appreciate you coming here and adding your voice. it is badly needed. thank you. >> thank you. all right. let's bring in right now former treasure ee official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner and senior fellow at university of virginia, miller center, chris lu who served as deputy secretary of labor under the obama administration. steve ratner, we have good news

this morning, thank god, on the economy. i'm not exactly sure what it means because we haven't had time to dive into all of the numbers. i don't know if job participation has gone way down or whether this is just good news. we were talking about and we were expecting -- i say "we." the government and others were expecting unemployment to get close to 20%. this is breaking news, u.s. unemployment rate fell to 13.3% in may, down from 14.7% in april, 2.5 million jobs gained in may, 20.5 million lost in april, 701,000 lost in march. again, we don't know what the job participation rate is and don't know if a lot of people just stopped looking for work. but the fact that 2.5 million jobs were added, very good news. the fact that the unemployment rate actually went down instead

of going up toward 20% also very good news. what does it mean? >> i wish i knew, joe. i have to say in all of my years of following economic statistics and for that matter all of my colleagues to follow economic statistics this is probably the most surprising statistic any of us have seen relative to expectations. as you said, the wide expectation among private forecasters top to bottom pretty much was something around a 20% unemployment rate and a loss of substantial number of jobs, in the probably 7 to 8 million range was what the forecast was so it is dramatic. it runs contrary to other data. we saw yesterday new claims for unemployment insurance is continuing to be high. it is declining but continuing to be high. we saw yesterday, surprisingly, the number of people on unemployment insurance tipped back up again. we thought that might be starting down as businesses begin to reopen.

we did see a number yesterday from adp, the payroll processing company, that was a bit better than we expected although it still showed a loss of jobs, a couple million jobs this month. so this is really a stunning number. the president has already tweeted about it, as you have seen. so you can imagine what the political implications of this are going to be. they are going to substantially change the argument about whether we need more stimulus. they're going to substantially change the president's argument in the election, but we really need to dig into these numbers before we can reach any real conclusion about them because, as i've said, i've never seen numbers this far off expectations in, i don't know, 40 years of watching this stuff. >> chris lu, obviously these numbers can be adjusted in future months, but right now it looks like really good news. "the washington post" talking about there are hopes that may's unemployment rate is near the nader of the crisis, the rocky bottom below which the united

states will sink no further. yet with some 30 million workers collecting unemployment benefits, the labor market has been upended. could we possibly be seeing this as the low point of this economic crisis? could millions and millions of americans see this as good news and the beginning of the bottoming out from this pandemic crisis, so long obviously as there aren't future dramatic spikes in the disease? >> this could be the absolute low point but i would add some cautions as steve just did as well. understand this, that this data is collected from both households and from employers, and we know that so many employers were closed in the month of may. so we're going to have to dig into a little bit more about how they got this information. there's also another issue about how you classify worker who are technically employed but unable

to go to work. there's some imprecision about whether these people are actually employed or not employed. leaving that aside, let's also understand when you add the last three months together the economy has lost around 17 or 18 million jobs. that's still double the amount of jobs lost during the great recession. we know that we are still in a public health crisis. 1,000 people a day are dying. fundamentally this economy doesn't rebound until you have greater confidence about people going out in public and spending money and going to work. let's also recognize that as we talk about all of these protests happening around the country that in a time of economic crisis, which is what we are in, people of color are the ones most disproportionately impacted. unemployment rates among african-americans and latinos is higher than among whites. they are more likely to stay unemployed. they have less savings so less of a cushion in times like this. while it is a bit of good news, it does, as steve said, contradicts a lot of the other data we've seen.

we will have to look a little bit more at this. i think it is a little premature for the president to be taking a victory lap right now. >> steve, as you try to make sense of these numbers i'm reading through them a little bit myself. looks like 2.7 million people returned to work who had been furloughed effectively, the temporary lay-offs. they went back to work, counted as coming back. but how do you square, we come out every thursday with these numbers. how do you square over the last 10 weeks 40 million unemployment claims with 2.5 million jobs added in the month of may? obviously at first glance these numbers are absolutely fantastic and great news for all of those people going back to work, but how do you make heads or tails of 40 million unemployment claims but in may 2.5 million jobs added? >> yeah, that's -- that is the conundrum here, willie. first, we knew that businesses were beginning to reopen. we knew that workers were coming back and that would -- and that

would certainly be a piece of this. but this survey is taken in the middle of the month, and at that point we believed and we got to see other numbers, that workers were still being laid off at the same time. so, as i said, the widespread expectation would be the loss of another 7 million jobs here or there, something like that, plus or minus. the 40 million number represents the total number of people who have applied for unemployment insurance during this period. it doesn't mean they're all still getting unemployment insurance and, therefore, still unemployed. that number is more like 24 million, 25 million. that is kind of what we expected to see happen here, which is to climb up closer to that number from roughly 20 million where it was last month. so this is -- this is the data that we have to reconcile. i do think, yes, on the one hand obviously it is -- assuming the numbers check out and we can make sense of them, it is certainly good news if the

economy is performing better than we thought. we still have unemployment close to 14%. we still have 20 million americans plus or minus out of work. they made worse the number of jobs lost in the last couple of jobs by 600,000 or so. so it is not like we're out of the woods, but it is certainly going to have a major impact on the political and policy debate in washington. i think the prospect of additional stimulus at this point is probably dead for now. the republicans have been resisting it. as i said before, the president is already tweeting about it. you will hear an enormous amount from him in coming days about what a great job he is doing and how the economy is still opening. even if these numbers turn out to be accurate or reliable, we still have an unemployment rate close to 14% and 20 million americans out of work. >> all right. stay with us. coming up next we're going to have minnesota attorney general keith ellison. he is going to join the conversation on the heels of this week's new charges in the

george floyd case. keep it right here on "morning joe." v 300 miles an hour,

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we're going to get back to the job numbers in a minute and talk about them, but, first, let's bring in the lead

prosecutor in the george floyd case, minnesota attorney general keith ellison. keith, it is so great to talk to you again. >> thanks, joe. >> tell me, if you can tell our viewers what led up to the announcement of the charges being brought against the other officers and also the second degree murder charge that was added? >> well, as we were continuing to receive evidence, given that we had an ongoing investigation, we felt that the facts were there to charge the higher count on derek chauvin and to demonstrate to the satisfaction of a jury, we believe, that the other three officers actively aided and abetted, and despite having a duty to do so didn't render any aid. so we believe that's aiding and abetting. so we charged it out as such. so we're charging counts that we believe are provable,

substantially evidence exists for. so that's what we arrived at. >> i was struck by your cautious tone when you -- when you were speaking not only to the people of minnesota but also to the nation. you explained that, yes, you've got the tape, but you have to be cautious, you need to move forward deliberatively. >> right. >> because you certainly have seen, as have all of us have seen cases like the freddie gray case where i believed at the time police rushed -- or prosecutors rushed quickly, threw some charges down to calm people in the streets, and then weren't able to follow up on the charges. you seem to be taking this in a very deliberate manner. explain. >> well, i mean in so many cases, whether it is starting with rodney king, walter scott, so many other -- trayvon martin,

which was not a police case but a quasi police case, you know, the defense attorneys were able to break one link of the prosecutorial chain and the jury bought it. i mean let's let's be honest. we're all raised to believe, you know, police. even though we know that police officers are members of the human race and subject to what everybody else is subject to. of good and bad. so we do culturally think we should trust them and that is a factor for the jury. we don't want people to distrust them or give them any higher credibility than they do another person who is equally credible. we're raised a certain kind of way. and that presents a factor. the fact is that nobody is above the law. nobody is beneath the law and we've got to make sure that this case is tight at every link in that chain. >> attorney general ellison,

it's willie geist. good to talk to you this morning. for the layman watching and considering the charges you brought against officer chauvin, what's the distinction to you between third-degree murder and the upgraded charge of second-degree murder. why did you see fit to move that up? >> because we believe that he intentionally assaulted george floyd as opposed to just did a depraved heart, crazy, outrageous act that ultimately killed him. we believe he committed a felony against george floyd and that resulted in death, intended or not. and so that is the distinction. we believe he did act with intentionality on the underlying felony which supports felony murder in the second degree. >> keith, this is gene robinson. why did you take over the case? why did you not leave it in the hands of the county prosecutor? >> we did it to expand our

resources and our reach. the county attorney, mike freeman, good friend of mine. he's the only county attorney who has successfully prosecuted a police officer for murder. they have experience. they have great lawyers over there. we are working together. but we thought the importance of this case had statewide impact so he called me and asked me to join to help and i was glad to do so. then the governor said we can use your help here so i'm never going to shrink from my public duty. i'm always going to step up and help wherever we can so we said yes. we know we have great lawyers, great prosecutors at the attorney general's office, and so we can help so we are helping. we're also operating parallel with the u.s. attorney, erica mcdonald, who is a great partner. and they are doing a color of law investigation, a civil rights investigation. so, you know, as erica likes to

say, one team, one goal, one mission, and we're in pursuit of justice. >> attorney general, obviously most officers who are charged don't get convicted. what are the structural hurdles that you're up against in this case? >> well, as i already mentioned, you know, we are conditioned to view the world a certain way regarding police. but in starting with that, you know, there are, in many cases, not this case, but in many cases, relationships that, you know, just simply protect them. there are structural immunities built into the system that safeguard them. the police are allowed to exercise force on -- in ways that you and i as nonpolice officers simply are not. you and i can use force to defend ourselves or others. they can use force in a broader set of circumstances than that. so all those circumstances,

relationships with people in the criminal justice system, the law itself, jury attitudes, other things all add up to making it tough to convict police officers. but as i said, no one is above the law. no one is beneath the law. mr. george floyd is not beneath the law. it's not okay to kill him in the streets, and we're not going to stand for it. so we brought the charges that we thought were supported by the evidence. >> all right. attorney general keith ellison, it's always great talking to you. especially now. we really appreciate you being with us today, and good luck. >> thank you sir. let's bring in steve rattner once again. hey, steve, going back to these numbers again, you've said that there are other numbers that seem to be in conflict with what we've seen in the reports this morning. of course, we all hope that

these numbers are accurate and this is, in fact, the bottom of this terrible recession. but what numbers have you seen that are in conflict with it? and when will we get a better read on why the numbers seem to be conflicting with each other this morning. >> the numbers i'm principally referring to were the numbers released yesterday on new claims for unemployment insurance. so the word additional americans applying for unemployment insurance but more importantly, the number of americans receiving unemployment insurance went up to about 25 million. now this survey was taken in the middle of the month and so it's a slightly different time period. i would say that having had a few minutes to look through this, what i think those of us into these weeds are finding is there is a note in the bls report today that has to do with methodology, specifically relating to the covid problem. and i won't get into all the weeds on that. but bls is noting that that

issue has a 3 percentage point impact on unemployment so that a number of economists are thinking the right number to be looking at is more like 16% or 16.3%. somewhat higher than it was last month. but regardless of that, it does appear that americans are going back to work somewhat faster than any of us thought was likely. and it does appear that additional layoffs are not occurring as fast as some of us thought was likely. i would -- the president is having a news conference at 10:00. so he's going to, obviously, take a victory lap, even though he kept saying he wasn't responsible for the job losses. but the question also will be, where do we go from here? both as a substantive matter and a political matter. does the unemployment rate continue to surprise to the good, or does it stick in this sort of low mid teens range which in a normal world would still be a very tough place politically for any president to

be as he faces re-election. >> chris, obviously the projections from economists on these numbers, even of an hour ago, are breathtakingly wrong. off by about 10 million jobs. if you look inside the numbers, it does appear as we've looked over the last couple of minutes that these 2.7 million workers who were temporarily laid off, who were furloughed from their jobs and then returned to them are making up for this. and this is why we have such a good number. what does that tell you because the permanent job loss is still there. there were still a couple hundred thousand jobs lost permanently. but these temporarily furloughed workers have gone back to work. that's great news in places like restaurants and retail. what's your snapshot now that you've marinaded in these numbers. what do they add up to? >> i think that's exactly right. when we look at surveys of employers, a lot of them initially thought that the temporary layoffs would simply be temporary. as this crisis has gone on

there's been an increasing concern they may become permanent. a lot of it goes back to this issue of confidence and whether people go out and spend money again. you can make these layoffs temporary. there are a couple of things in the numbers that jump out. 6 million are considered employed but not working their full hours. they have likely had their hours cut during this crisis so it will be interesting to see whether that bounces back or not. the other interesting thing is that government workers, about half a million, lost their jobs last month. when you add it to the last two months it's about a million and a half federal, state and local government workers. we always talk about this being the looming crisis coming down as big states are facing budget deficits. again, this is devolved into a red state versus blue state issue, but it's not. and the challenge for a lot of states is that, unless they can get some relief from the federal government, they'll start laying off police and teachers and firefighters. so i think the wrong lesson to draw from all of that is that we should stop with economic relief

because we're not out of the woods on this. >> all right. thank you so much, chris lu. thank you, steve rattner. greatly appreciate it. let's hope this is the beginning of more good news as far as the economy goes. let's do final thoughts. katty kay, let's begin with you. >> i'm interested to see what the numbers are for african-americans in these latest job numbers. everything that we've been speaking about this morning, covid pandemic and the suffering of african-americans, the job numbers and, of course, the killing of george floyd, it all ties together to where we are at the moment in the country. >> gene robinson, final thoughts? >> another momentous, exhausting, gut-wrenching week in the history of this republic, and i'm glad it's friday. and let's hope we make it through next week, too. >> willie geist, final thoughts? >> it certainly has been an exhausting week.

at the end of it, let's celebrate that 2.7 million of our fellow americans got their jobs back in the last couple of weeks in restaurants, in health care, in retail, in construction. that is objectively good news. >> let's embrace that good news and hope for more good economic news as we move into the summer and we continue to reopen this economy. i just want to say, i go back to the numbers that show attitudes among americans are changing dramatically, and they have over the past ten days. proving once again as martin luther king said, quoting an abolitionist in 1853 that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. thank you so much for watching. stay with us. have a great weekend. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now in philadelphia.