they are more troubled by george floyd's death than the actions of the minneapolis police than they are by the protests that followed it. this as those protests honoring the memory of george floyd continue across our country. the 46-year-old will be honored at a memorial in houston tomorrow. he will be buried there on tuesday. most of the protests from coast to coast remain peaceful. >> things got tense in seattle as police used flashbangs, a familiar but never popular tactic among protesters. in san francisco large crowds making a statement and holding up traffic at the golden gate bridge taking a knee for 8 minutes and 46 minutes, that's the length of time derek chauvin

held his knee on george floyd's death. in washington, d.c. this morning the presumptive democratic nominee joe biden writing an op-ed in "the l.a. times" saying we need to implement real community policing and make sure that every police department in the country undertakes comprehensive review of their hiring praks, providing the tools and resources to implement reforms. in new york multiple officers have been charged for their roles in the violence during the protests. governor andrew cuomo looking to take the lead on criminal justice reform with a moniker familiar to protesters. >> we have the say their name agenda, transparency of prior disciplinary actions for police officers, the 50-a bill. no chokeholds. no chokeholds. how many times do you have to learn the same lesson? no false race-based 9-1-1 reports.

the attorney general is an independent prosecutor for police murders. pass the bills. actually make the change. then other states will look at new york and say, well, new york did this, why can't we do it? >> joining me nicole hannah jones, journalist with "new york times" magazine and tremaine lee, msnbc correspondent and host of the fantastic into america podcast. thanks to both of you for being here. nicolle, we have a poll that indicates stuff that we know. americans think this is out of control. they should because it is. but we also have polls that have indicated that most americans believe that african americans are treated unfairly by the police and there is a growing movement of people who think we either need to redirect police resources or defund the police or give the police adequate training to do their jobs. is what joe biden just said going to be enough resources, federal resources to help police do what they are supposed to do better?

>> no, i don't think that is going to be enough. i don't think that's what americans are calling for. we should take a second and pause on how astounding these poll numbers are. never in modern american history have we seen such large numbers of americans acknowledging that racism among policing is widespread but also in general society. that poll is also about that black americans face pervasive racism in society at large with 76% of americans saying that and 71% of white americans. we have never seen that before. so i don't think simply calls for more funding for police departments, with the way that police, it's not about funding. it's about accountability. it's about treating communities with humanity and more funding is not going to accomplish that. >> tremaine lee, you tweeted the other day black americans are exhausted, they are grieving, they are angry, they are growing tired of being forced to make

the case for shir citizenship, their humanity, their very survival again and again over the course of generations. what has changed this time? they were angry in the '60s. they were angry throughout the civil rights movement. what is different today? >> i think what's different is kind of what's been the same. when you think about dr. diking and his non-violent approach to social change, he wasn't necessarily non-violent. he wanted to show the world, allow the world to see the violence heaped upon black folks. i think this time with the senseless inexplicable death of george floyd, i think america, the white america in particular, got a taste of what happens in cities all across america every single day. and then as we have this cross racial, cross cultural mass movement, white folks on the front lines being beaten by police. we have seen the videos now of the baton-wielding police beating white protesters, spraying them with pepper spray. they are getting a taste of it.

also i think there is this sense of america being out of control, out of order. you think about covid-19, the stress intention. folks are bound up and there is so much uncertainty. i think this time even though we are at a pivot point and there is hope for great change, the pendulum always swings back. the monster of anti-blackness, which is again hard wired into who we are as americans, will rear its head. those who always push back against progress as they always have from reconstruction, then redemption. you call for desegregation, then you have white folks abandoning cities, abandoning schools. while we are at this moment, once we get back to quote/unquote normal where folks get back to their jobs and can go on vacation and eat at their launts, we will see how much people really really want change. >> you have written an article, a piece for which you won a pulitzer prize talking about how americans didn't enjoy democracy without african americans. it sort of feels that way now,

right? we are not free. and i think americans are starting to realize, americans who are not black are starting to understand if you are the beneficiary of treatment from police that is different from people who are of color or black, then it's not fair. we are all in chains if one of us is in chains. >> yes, absolutely. i have been thinking so much about it as we saw this all started with black people taking to the streets and demanding to be treated like citizenship and the beautiful thing is people of all races have joined in that struggle, but this has always been the case in the country. democracy has been thinly held. it is not included all americans and it has been black protests that has pushed us further to democracy. and it has been black people leading the struggle now. i agree with tremaine. this was a tactic of the civil rights movement. black being out there marching alone never brought the type of

outrage as when white people got involved and white people started getting abused by the police and abused by those who oppose civil rights. we are seeing that same thing. it's sad, but true. but often only through the eyes of seeing an old white man who could be your grandfather getting pushed down by the police and left to bleed. white people are able to feel the empathy for the experience black americans have all of the time. so what we are seeing the way the press is being treated right now, the way protests are being repressed r repress repress right now, these experiences have been in this country and black people have been pushing against and they are being exposed to white americans who have been able to ignore this. >> i am looking at pictures while you are on the screen of another massive protest in london. we saw one yesterday at this time. we are seeing another one underway right now. i mean, tremaine, here is the sad part. those two cops in buffalo who pushed that 75-year-old white man down, left him on the

sidewalk bleeding, were charged and 57 of their teammates on the boston -- on the buffalo energy response team quit. they didn't quit, by the way. they quit the team. they are getting paid as police and then they applauded them at court. this is the problem, tremaine. police are meeting the criticism of police with exactly the stuff that people were criticizing about police. >> we always hear this idea of a few bad apples. it seems like there are a few baskets full of bad apples. unarmed protesters arrive to protest police violence and they are met with more police violence. you know, rubber bullets aren't just non-fatal, they are less fatal. they can still hurt and maim. you have been doing great work and you have been on the receiving end of the tear gas and rubber bullets. so it is amazing. but? is the systemic nature of what we are talking about here. it's not just an individual. these are individuals supported by entire systems. and we see it playing out.

57 stepping down after what was really a horrific video of that old man being pushed to the ground, bleeding from his head. this is where we are and this is why change has been so stubborn. >> nikole, do you think that something will come of this? the new york city mayor de blasio said this morning he is lifting the curfew in new york. there will not be another curfew. do you think some change comes of this because the change that we are looking at, and president obama spoke about this last week, it's county executives, it's mayors, it's police chiefs, it's not actually going to be easy for the federal government to implement this. will we see change or does this die down until we get the next video of a person dying while saying they can't breathe? >> as a journalist, i try to never make predictions because i never try to look foolish. i think you end up ultimately being wrong. what i will say, if this pressure remains, if people don't just go home and give up,

the chances for change are quite large. governor cuomo in new york just announced the say their names act today, which is trying to implement some measures against or for police accountability and he is calling on other governors in other jurisdictions to do the same thing. we would not have that without these massive and ongoing and sustained protests. i think it's also important to say this is a pivotal moment. when we saw in the 1960s uprisings across the country, white support for civil rights actually declined. we are seeing the opposite effect here, than is really, offers a potential for something transformative. not just policing though. the economic circumstances of black americans is horrifying and we need to also be talking about economic justice. and so what i would hope is we are going to see calls for economic justice for black americans as well as policing reform. >> thanks to both of you for the great work that you continue to

do to educate the public on some of the things that we were not taught in school and we do not talk about in society. nikole hannah-jones and tremaine lee. you can catch the latest episode of tremaine's podcast into america wherever you get podcasts. turning now to the state of wisconsin where reform efforts are underway in response to protests demanding change after the death of george floyd. democratic governor tony evers declared racism a public health crisis calling on the state legislature to pass a bill to demand that police only use deadly force as a last resort. instead, placing the focus of their duty on saving lives. it would protect police whistle-blowers. joining me is wisconsin's lieutenant governor mandela barns. thank you for joining me. this is something that we shouldn't have to make laws about. in minneapolis, they shouldn't have had to pass a statute saying you can't use chokeholds.

if officers see other officers using undue force, they should respond to it. but we have to? >> yeah, i have had conversations with a number of faith leaders over the last couple of weeks starting with the covid crisis, but transitioning into this particular moment. when i talk about some of the things that they can contact their police chiefs or their mayors about or their sheriff's, you know, they assume that some of these things were already happen, that people safely assume chokeholds are banned, people safely assume that toer officers had to at least intervene when something wasn't going right, but that's the not the case. it's wild to think that police are getting away with some of these things. it's wilder to imagine the fact that it is actually allowed. >> and one of the things that i think we have to think about that you articulated the other day is that you can make the little but important rules that you have to make in policing,

but this conversation can no longer be had without the greater context of systemic inequality, poverty, economic inequality, inequality and justice. it's focused on a matter of policing and police violence and racism at the moment, but in fact if we fix it, we have got to fix the larger situation of african americans in america. >> yeah, and i wouldn't even say it's an african conversation. we can do both. we have to do both in order for us to survive as a society. i mean, it is not unrealistic to think that we could potentially be on the brink right now. in order for us to move forward in a way that protects the health and safety of everyone who lives in this country, we have to choose opportunity. that means every city across america, especially our major metropolitan areas that are home to some of the most diverse populations, have to understand what it means to invest in communities, making sure our

schools aren't underfunded, making sure our classrooms around overcrowded, making sure there are after school activities, sports and other recreational opportunities for our children and our youth, arts. there are so many ways that people don't have an outlet to express themselves that they should have, especially when it is a completely different story sometimes just two, three blocks away or a mile away, and that sort of inequality and injustice takes us to the place we are now. if i could touch on a point, too, before i came on, you know, tremaine talked about the response that we are seeing across the country and he specifically mentioned buffalo where the elderly gentleman was knocked down. he saw him bleeding. that's happening in far too many places and that's what is waking up america's conscience because they see people who aren't typically discriminated against being victims of brutality and the response to police brutality shouldn't be what we're seeing now.

you don't see firefighters rushing to a scene with propane in their hands because that makes a bad situation worse. that's kind of what we're seeing right now. >> you are absolutely right about that. thank you for joining us. mandela barnes, the lieutenant governor of the state of washington. thank you, sir. malcolm x, a he had looer in the pursuit of racial justice, i will speak to his daughter about the modern civil rights movement and the protests sparked by the death of george floyd. y the death of george floyd. and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain!

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just like we said when my son was murdered and the big crowds came out at that time also, all over the nation in different countries, and then people went back to business as usual, but i didn't. i kept fighting. i fought the system until finally the system did give me a little bit, not much, but a little bit of justice when they fired officer pantaleo. so the system needs to be torn down and built up again because i don't think that they will ever recognize that we are a complete human being in this system because even with the protests that's going on, they are still -- these officers should be, especially with the peaceful protests as we see going on now, they are supposed to protect the people. they are supposed just monitor the protests, not bang them in

the head like they did that 75-year-old man. that was just disgraceful. >> welcome back. that was the late eric garner's mother speaking with me last night, offering some historical perspective on the changes that need to take place to make an actual difference, having lived it. turning again to our just released msnbc "wall street journal" poll that finds 80% of voters say things in the united states are out of control. breaking that down along party lines, 92% of democrats say so, 78% of independents and 67% of republicans agree. a majority no matter how you slice it. roland martin, the author of the first president obama's road to the white house as originally reported. you are wearing a shirt, unapologetically black. i want to tell our viewers, you were wearing a shirt about black journalists, which is uniquely important right now. >> right.

absolutely. you see the people who are getting attacked by media. you have that. that's first. but also what is important here is what's also happening that a lot of newsrooms should have been listening to black journalists all these years because we have been talking about these issues. frankly, many of our newsrooms are led largely by white men. now we are seeing what's happening. so america needs to be confronting in so many areas, not just politics, social justice organizations, but all of these companies out here, ali, releasing their statements black lives matter. do blackboard members matter, black executives matter, black businesses matter? what's happening is a reckoning going on in america right now that is amazing to watch. and i think this is going to continue. this is not going to just sort of go away. you heard that from miss carr. i think this is something that

is reaching a critical mass in america that we better get prepared for. >> but it only happens at this point, tremaine was making this point, when it makes the leap from a movement that seems to be about black people into a leap that seems to be about the rest of us, right? once we realize that the system is unfair and we accept that if you are a recipient of an unfair system, whether it's police justice or economics or wages or it's health care or it's economics, you know, boards and businesses, we are sort of seeing that. we are seeing major businesses come out and unapologetically talk about black lives matter now. >> well, i think a lot of them are doing it because it's also a good p.r. move. that's what i'm saying. one of the things that we are prepared to do at roland martin unfiltered, is let's go under the hood. all these companies releasing statements, let's look at their company makeup, their executive

makeup. let's look at their minority supplier development, what they actually do. sure, you can give $1 million right now, but do black employees matter? and we're seeing that how employees are challenging companies saying, wait a minute, now you are making these statements, but where have you been when we have been discussing these issues internally. we have to be honest about something here. we are talking about the civil rights movement. when white america decides to get involved, stuff changes. let's be honest. we are a majority white country. during the civil rights movement, what did they say? we got to be careful. if white kids start getting hurt as freedom riders, then america pays attention. and so i am glad to see that. an interesting thing that they talked about. if you were a 12 or 15-year-old person when obama was elected, guess what? you are now in your mid-20s. i think we can't overlook that where their first president was an african american. and so that's all also what is causing a change in this where

you are seeing white americans being confronted, a younger generation who says we have to step up where our parents didn't to confront a systemic racism happening in america. >> and i have spent a week and a half in the streets of america. the majority of the protesters i have seen have been white and young. that's a very interesting point that you make. thanks always, my friend. rolanded martin. the author of the first president barack obama's road to the white house. cities across the world are proving systemic racism is not just an american battle to fight. we will take you to another protest in london. it's huge. here is a live look right now. i am also going to talk to the daughter of malcom x. you are watching "velshi" on msnbc. velshi" on msnbc. it's more treatable. k dev k de l l to find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages. tell me more. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer,

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take a look at some pictures we have got in london where there is another gathering of what appears to be thousands of

people. they appear to be gathered around the american embassy, but we will continue to follow this on the ground. it is -- this is the second day in a row. we have seen protests in london for several days. 50 years after the assassinations of malcom x and dr. martin luther king jr., two prominent leaders in the civil rights movement, the death of george floyd, ahmaud arbery and breonna taylor have brought the fight for racial justice back to the forefront of america's consciousness. we have reached a moment in the country where the majority of us are rallying around the need for police reforms while others focus on what divide us rather than unite us. this movement is looking to fix a larger systemic problem. here is how malcom x put it in 1965. >> i don't advocate any kind of hate. >> there is a lot of talk that sounds like it. >> no, the guilt complex of the american white man is so profound until when you begin to

analyze the real condition of the black man in america instead of the american white man eliminating the causes that create that condition, he tries to cover it up by accusing his accusers of teaching hate, but actually they are just exposing him for being responsible for what exists. >> joining me now ilyasah shabazz, a community organizer and adjunct professor of criminal justice, the daughter of the late malcom x and betty shabazz. ilyasah, thank you for joining me. i wanted to get your perspective on this because your father was fighting what he believed to be systemic racism and violence by the police, and that was many, many, many years ago, and yet what we are seeing in the last 12 days is a response to criticism of the police with exactly the thing that people were criticizing them for, violence. >> that's right. you know, it was in the 1950s that my father came along and he

said, you know, young people were demonstrating, marching, protesting for quality of life, quality education, health care, all of the things entitled to human beings, and they wanted them for their families. and my father came along and he said, we demand our human rights as your brother. we demand our human rights ordained by god. we have been miseducated, misinformed, and i think it's important to put all of these historical events into proper context, especially if we want to solve these problems. these are issues and concerns that he raised 50 years ago and we see 50 years later they are still here. and so we have to come together, sit at the table, and address these challenges head on. >> so you are a professor at the john -- >> do you understand that? yes, sir. >> we have a delay on the line. but you are a professor -- where you educate people in law

enforcement. is there a problem in the education? is there a problem in the execution? is it unions or is it just racism? >> well, listen, it's a human problem, right? it's not an issue of black and white, but the capacity to recognize right from wrong. it says that we have to educate our laws, policies and practice have to be redone. we have to educate people who have been misinformed, been miseducated, young people are discovering the truths. they are no longer going to sit back and watch these injustices continue. we have 50 states that participated. we all sat back and we saw this horrific death of one man, but these deaths continue. i mean, they are happening right now, and they continue to happen. and so people have to be held accountable. young people are discovering the truths of these criminal systemic challenges that confront all human beings, not

just in america, not just black and white, but we have to have the capacity to recognize right from wrong and join in with our young people and change these laws, policies, and practices that were created once via the people who are in power, conquered the indigenous people here and created this powerful system. that has to be done over. and that's what all of these protests are about. when we say black lives matter, we acknowledge, we have the capacity to recognize right from wrong. >> yesterday i spoke with the mother of philando castile who was killed by a police officer just outside of minneapolis and she was saying that if they were not able to get justice in that case, she would understand why people, why the manifestation of some people's protest is violent. your father had a complex relationship with the role of violence in protests. what are your thoughts on it? >> well, listen, my father said,

if you throw a bomb in my home, i am going to not sit down and watch the bomb and the fire take the home and my family. i am going to get my family, take them to safety, and try to put the fire out. and so i agree with my father that, listen, all of these horrific things are happening. we have to come together and figure it out. he said, if you put a knife in my back, 12 inches and you pull it out ten, the knife is still in my back. so we have to come together and address these issues and not allow ourselves to make a little bit of progress, then be undermined by a broken system and find ourselves in the same place where we are 50 years from now. and i'm telling you, young people are not going to just sit back and watch these things happen. they said they are not their ancestors. the seeds have harvested. they are here, and we want change. and it seems only right.

toni morrison said something like she hspent her entire life dispelling the myth that blacks were not scientifically inferior. at the end of her life she realized that she was not able to focus on the joyce s of bein human, the loves, the passion, her purpose in life. at some point we have to just buckle down and accept the fact that this antiquated system is not going to work and that these officers have to be retrained, reeducated, as well as our children, that our black history, for example, indigenous history, the world's history should be incorporated in our educational curriculum throughout the year and if we want to celebrate blacks or latinas or gays, whatever, we can celebrate it, but first and foremost our educational curriculum has to be inclusive of historical fact. and that is the foundation of thriving civilizations by people

of color. you know, what is the harm of that? that astronomers, they were architects, priests and scholars. let's tell the truth. let our children have self-respect. let other children have the opportunity to learn truths, especially here in america where we're so blessed and fortunate to have a melting pot of the various nations of the world. let us do something about that. >> ilyasah shabazz, thank you for your passion and your time and the work that you do. ilyasah shabazz is the daughter of malcom x. she an author and professor at the john jay college of criminal justice. go ahead. >> and i want to thank you for your good work that you are doing. i watch you all the time and i really appreciate that you are there in the streets and that you were recording, you know, what was actually happening with the non-violent protesters and there were other people -- so we really appreciate you so much. so thank you. and thank you for having me on your show. >> we will continue our commitment to do so.

thank you, ilyasah shabazz. after the break i am going to speak to the superintendent of schools about his personal experience with racial profiling. you are watching msnbc. >> we are tired of the battle. we are tired of the struggle. we have been fighting the struggle for 200 years. come on. put your full force behind us. it neutralizes bacteria for a healthier mouth than even the leading multi-benefit toothpaste. crest.

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i think it's perfectly reasonable for the people that we protect and serve to question what we do with the money that we get. but when it comes to training and hiring and what types of things are you putting into de-escalation and use of force, what kind of power, it does come from money. so, yes, i think that it's a perfectly reasonable thing to be questioning that. >> in the quest for racial justice, drastic measures are needed if we want to rethink

policies around public safety especially in dealing with communities of color. one of the more controversial ideas is the call for re-evaluating the billions of dollars that go into funding local law enforcement departments and putting those resources into community policing, mental health, housing, and schools. in minneapolis, the mayor jacob frye was booed by protesters after telling the group he did not support defunding and abolishing the city's police department. while stopping short of defunding, mayor frye has committed to making immediate changes to minneapolis's police force, but is now the time for a more radical approach? joining me now michael denzel smith, best-selling author of "invisible man," the upcoming stakes is high, life after the american dream. you know, i have had heated discussions with people around me about what do you do if you abolish the police because murder doesn't go away, rape doesn't go away, roche doesn't go away, speeding doesn't go away. what does abolish the police

really mean? >> well, so i think you have to start with the idea that, one, those forms of violence that you are talking about that people are so concerned with like what do we do about that if the police aren't there, well, the police only do -- they only try to solve the problem after it's occurred, right. they only solve the murder after it's happened. they only try in very few cases try to solve the rape after it's happened. there are mechanisms for trying to prevent that, trying to lower rates of violence that don't have anything to do with policing. so that's the first thing, is that if we keep investing on the back end with police and thinking that there is a measure of state violence that will deter these other forms of violence and we see that that doesn't work. so abolishing the police, you know, in this moment, the call for defunding the police is saying if we take resources away from the police that -- i mean, the immense resources that have

been given to police over the years and we redirect that money to things that are actually aimed at mitigating the kinds of harm that people experience, investing in housing so that we are not rounding up people that are unhoused and homeless and locking them in prisons, ensuring that you have someone else to call instead of police when someone is having a mental health rye crisis, when you need a wellness check. those are things that are just about getting the police out of our -- getting that logic out of our daily lives and we can do things that are around like conflict resolution that don't have to do with police. it doesn't make sense that neighbors having disputes over noise then call the police in. the police only have tools of violence to mitigate that. so what is the point of that? it's just a matter of how do we

rethink engaging with one another so we don't have to have the police. >> so you have done a lot of writing and a lot more thinking about this than i have, michael. i guess my concern is that do we do right by demonizing all police and all policing? i don't know that i want to live in a world in which nothing is policed and that everything can be solved by people negotiating stuff. i think some people have bad intentions and are we throwing the baby out -- all the babies out with the bath water when only some of the babies are bad? there are some good cops in america. i know them. >> well, the question is whether or not policing in and of itself is an institution that is necessary for safety and health of people, right. and, one, police keep proving over and over again that they cause death, they cause harm. they committee rape at a higher rate than the rest of the population. so we're talking about handing over authority to an armed body

to kill and maim and harm people with impunity. so if that is the structure of what policing is, we have to ask what role does that play in a society that's just and fair and equal. but then what we're saying is that, you know, if you can reimagine what that looks like with the levels of engagement, we are talking about not only focusing on the needs of people who do become victimized and saying, what do you actually need to be made whole? what do you need for someone to make amends and restitution to you for harming you? and then asking also the question about, why are people harming other people? because if we write it off -- >> right. >> they are just some -- >> i totally hear you. i guess the question i'm asking, if i'm driving down the highway and someone whizzes by at 100 miles an hour, is weaving in and out and going to cause danger, i am not calling a conflict resolution expert.

i would like somebody to call at the other end. >> see, why wouldn't you? like what's the problem with that? what to you -- >> come on, michael. come on, come on. let's not be unreasonable. really? i am going to call a conflict resolution expert to say someone is speeding and we need to negotiate this? >> why not? that's the question to you. >> i need somebody with lights and sirens to pull them over, michael. you think we are going to govern ourselves without police? you cannot concede there are not good police in this country, michael? you haven't seen images of them in the last ten days? >> no. >> then you are not watching, michael. you are not looking. >> no, no, because there is no such thing -- >> i have seen it with my own eyes and i have been in the streets. >> there is no such good as good policing, ali, is what i'm saying. the idea of policing is inherently violent. i am asking what the role of that in a society that's actually -- >> can we call it something else? you wrote in the new republic in

2018 the model to protect and serve atonighted by the los angeles police department in 1955 and largely used by others around the country has been a highly effective public relations tool for the police. it object secures the main function of their work to act in an add vadversarial manner. what if we replace with serving and protection? i want protection from somebody who has resources greater than i have. >> one, the police have greater resources. i'm asking how do i get protected interest the police. that's one thing. but then, yes, that's exactly the question, ali. how do weeria imagine what this force looks like or what this institution looks like that would come in to resolve conflicts between people? that's exactly what i'm saying. you are kind of agreeing with me right now. if you are saying we are establishing something different than what policing looks like in america right now. you have to do so much work to invest in the mitigation of harm

and the way that it expresses itself now, like inequality contributes so much to what we are saying in terms of like the reason that harm is committed. we have to decriminalize so many things on the books that don't need to be criminalized that police don't need to be there for. and then we are talking about is saying, okay, in the instances where there is harm, what do the victims need? what do the victims actually need? do they need someone to come in with guns? is that necessary for them to be made whole? i don't know that so many people would get on board with that except that that's the recourse offered so far. >> i understand that. do you see a world there is no role for something that looks like people who enforce the laws that we agree are fair and on the books? >> well, that's what democracy looks like. it is us enforcing those laws together. it is us deciding, we can talk to one another and we can measure something out that looks

like nothing like calling in armed guards and locking people away in cages. i mean, you are asking me, but the real answer to your question is increased democracy. increased community reform. increased community activism and advocacy. like building those strong communities so people actually know one another and can go to one another and talk about the ways in which to deal with whatever harms get created in their own communities. >> michael, i think we are largely on the same side of the issue. we haven't got the same solution to this. we will continue this conversation. i appreciate it, as always, the work that you have put into this. i will concede you know a lot more about this than i do. michael denzel smith the author of the book "stakes is high". demanding change in america's policing, people speaking out on behalf of previous generations that experienced systemic racism as well as generations to come.

the first black superintendent of palm beach county school district says he is also afraid for himself and for his 11-year-old son. >> i did not want my children to grow up in a world children to grow up in a world like i did which i'm a big man. i'm an overweight man so the fact i get outside to go out and walk, i'm conscious of do i wear a hoodie sweatshirt because it's dark outside and i might walk up on my neighbors and they don't recognize me and they call the police. or people get scared of me because i'm 6'4" and black. and i don't have my suit on. maybe you saw the tattoo on my leg. i don't know. but i live in constant fear of offending other people or triggering something in other people to call the police on me. >> joining me now, donald fenon, his district represents roughly

190,000 students making it the tenth largest district in the nation. thank you for being with us. you know, you bring up a really interesting topic and that is eddie glaude, always on my show, he has been getting threats and gets demipished. it doesn't mean if you have authority in a racist society. the concept that you might as you say trigger someone to do something is worrisome to you. >> you know, i think, you know -- well, first of all, thank you for having me. that is part of my daily life and, you know, i don't use it in a way that stops me from moving forward, obviously. i have been able to ascend in the ranks at a very young age. tomorrow is my birthday, i'll be 44. but again, when you're conditioned to live a certain way it's part of the reality but my hope is my children won't have to operate that way and like my son said when i spoke to the board, you know, those of us

in power should use our powers for good and those of us in power should use our power to make changes for the better. so the subliminal -- the message what i heard my son say to me was don't be soft. make the decisions that you think are in the best interests of everyone so there it is. >> you talk about -- you feel added pressure to make sure children of color including your own have respect for strangers because you don't want your kids to feel threatened or make anybody feel threatened so they get the cops called on them? >> yeah. we call it respectability politics. you don't want to offend people up so you can survive to the next day. you see what happened to emmett till, back in the days, those images still haunt us as

parents. our parents did the best they could to protect them from the world but once you become free from your parents you experience life as is. you want to teach your children to survive and that was really that message there. >> what do you do now? what kind of things -- what kind of role do you play when you see this environment around you and realize that the systemic racism goes through everything we do and the number of people who write about it say it starts in our schools, it starts in the way we teach our kids about our history. >> well, i think -- let me speak for myself. i think i made a move on friday -- i had been working on it for quite some time. we are going through a budget crisis so we decided to create a -- or make a recommendation to the board to create a division about student wellness and equity. you know, we have been talking about equity. our board has done an amazing job of relaying that foundation over time. board members, dr. deborah robertson was pushing that for 20 years.

our district in total i believe understands we have to make this the center of the world. it's interdependent. we happen to have our own police department as a school system and creating the space to make sure that conversations are being had to make sure that every child in this district and every adult in this district understands that we're in this together. so i'm a decision maker. i'm at the top of this particular pyramid with this board. so now we have to put our money where our mouth is and make decisions that aligns with those values. >> thank you for the work that you're doing, donald. superintendent of palm beach county schools. i wanted to do a quick update. i spoke with flora westbrook a small business owner and she saw her hairstyling business shut down because of the coronavirus pandemic but saw her shop goes up in flames due to riots in the city. she has been working to rebuild what was lost, she's received

670 new donations. they have not only helped her surpass her goal of $30,000, but helped her get one step closer to rebuilding her life's work. good luck. we wish you the best. that does it for us. you can catch me here from 8:00 to 10:00 eastern. coming up next, senator duckworth on "a.m. joy." xt, sen duckworth on "a.m. joy." to eligible members so they can pay for things like groceries before they worry about their insurance or credit card bills. discover all the ways we're helping members today. or credit card bills. new tide power pods one up the can it one up spaghetti night? it sure can. really? can it one up breakfast in bed? yeah, for sure. thanks, boys. what about that? uhh, yep! it can? yeah, even that! i would very much like to see that. me too. introducing new tide power pods. one up the toughest stains with 50% more cleaning power than liquid detergent. any further questions?

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first one, but he should be the last. >> we all have a right to live and pursue life, liberty and happiness. >> i have been marching since 1967, okay? i'm a former black panther party member from oakland, california, so i have been in the fight a long time ago. this is still about the dream. still about martin luther king's dream. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." more protests over george floyd's death in police custody are expected today after saturday saw some of the biggest demonstrations yet. but the righteous anger that largely defined the protests in the immediate aftermath of floyd's death has given way to growing demands for police reform on both the national and local levels. one of the many bitter truths made clear in recent weeks in

addition to the systemic racism and police brutality that black americans know all too well was the need for reform, specifically, specifically, reform inside the police department in minneapolis. on friday, minneapolis mayor jacob frey signed a temporary restraining order with the state of minnesota, which forces immediate reforms to take place. these include banning the use of the choke hold and requiring police officers to both report and intervene in cases of excessive force. in congress, meanwhile, democratic members of both the house and senate have introduced the most sweeping reform in decades. that act would also ban chokeholds. it would limit qualified immunity for police officers which in layman's terms are rules that shield government officials for being sued for ac