be 5% or less. that means you have widespread testing. 1% is excellent. places like minneapolis, they're heading up, they're at 8.3%, that's not good. that's very concerning. maybe we don't have enough testing or maybe we do have enough testing and people are just transmitting the disease, that's the epicenter of protests, we still don't know. that's really key. i will say the number of confirmed cases per -- so the number of tests per confirmed case that's a different way to look at what you were just asking me, we're still pretty low, we test about six individuals per confirmed covid-19 -- an american with a confirmed case, yo know what serbia does? they test 18 people per confirmed case. we still have a ways to go before we get to widespread testing that would allow us to

get people back in the work place, to do the things that characterize normal life. >> dr. gupta, still so much more to unfold in understanding this and protecting people that are out marching, we're going to keep calling on you. thank you for spending some time with us today. when we come back -- protesters are calling for police to be defunded. what it actually means for law enforcement, that's next. you can't predict the future.

but a resilient business can be ready for it. a digital foundation from vmware helps you redefine what's possible... now. from the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours... to the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud... or the city government going digital to keep critical services running. you are creating the future-- on the fly. and we are helping you do it. vmware. realize what's possible.

if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to target weeds precisely and kill them right down to the root. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. saturpain happens. aleve it. aleve is proven stronger and longer on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong. you say that customers maklet's talk data.s. only xfinity mobile lets you switch up your wireless data whenever. i accept! 5g - everybody's talking about it. how do i get it? everyone gets 5g with our new data options at no extra cost. that's good. next item - corner offices for everyone. just have to make more corners in this building. chad? your wireless your rules. only with xfinity mobile. now that's simple easy awesome. switch and save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. plus get $200 off a new samsung galaxy s20 ultra.

across the country, we've heard protesters demand police reform, even defunding and dismantling entire police departments. what does that mean for law enforcement in this country? joining us now is mark claxton, a retired nypd detective. mark, just take me through what may be people outside of law enforcements and outside the activism around these issues are missing? defunding the police department sounds like zeroing out budgets and making them go away. >> yeah, some of the dangers living in the social media era, where you look for a nice tag line that may not exactly what the goal of the objectives are, if you look at police funding,

most people will recognize the need of the police service and what they're calling for is some reform in the manner in which police operate and there are so many questions when you talk about defunding the police. what does that entail? are you talking about city, city-state? whether you'll allow attrition, drop some of your numbers in individual police departments, that may already be understaffed, the possibility of shifting resources within the agency from enforcement-based models into more community relations projects and units, there are so many variables and questions that come up and it's misleading. it will work against the ideas of reform. we should be having a conversation about perhaps

incent vising funding for policies or prioritize ideas, shift away from this heavy-handed type of model into a more community service. >> mark, one of the things -- one of the questions i would have for you, what is the appetite for reform or incentive reform from within law enforcement, who are those leaders? >> if you look at the individual officers themselves, they're coming to the realization that there's a need for reform, not a new revelation for them. i think the resistance that you'll have from police unions, if you will, and some of t-- lok the men and women on the street who actually work in policing

and law enforcement came into the job to quote, unquote, serve and protect. what happened when they came into the job, acclimated into this police culture and that culture has consumed everything else, so i think in the field, based on my understanding of my former colleagues is, they believe there's -- they're for reform, they're open to it and they're really at opposition perhaps what the unions will say. and the unions will oppose it, understandably, because, even though the impact is sort of residual for unions, the major impact for funding models is with the agencies themselves but the union realizes it's the dynamic of policing you change some of the programs' initiatives and the possibility

that there will be a lesser requirement for manpower and numbers, in essence lose some power, but i think the rank and file is a way of changing and they're open to the idea of change and now it's matter of us identify the problems and change the police culture. >> mark claxton, i'd love to understand what you were just talking about there a little better, the role of unions, "the new york times" had a front-page story on sunday getting at some of that, so please if we could ask you to come back, we'll try to upgrade your audio to dig around these issues. now that joe biden has clinched the democratic nomination, a slew of new polls to get to. no one better to talk about it than our own steve kornacki and

his big board. in this world where people are staying at home,

many of life's moments are being put on hold.

at carvana, we understand that for some getting a car just can't wait. that's why the new way to buy and sell a car is also the safer way. at carvana, you can do it all 100% online from home with a touchless delivery and pickup process to keep you safe. and for even greater peace of mind, all carvana cars come with a 7-day return policy. so if you need to keep moving, it's our goal to keep you safe. check out carvana, the safer way to buy a car. we're just five months away from the november election and this weekend, joe biden officially reached the number of delegates he needs to clinch the democratic nomination. according to our new poll biden's in a strong position at this point, as donald trump is losing ground amongst some key voting groups. overall, biden leads donald trump by 7 points nationally and a striking partisan divide on

the most prominent issues today -- police brutality, protests and protection from covid-19. but one thing that 8 out of 10 americans agree on was this question, is the country out of control? joining us now from the big board to break it all down nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki. not to be skipped over, biden is now officially the nominee and he sits at nothing's comfortable anymore, a pretty sizable national lead and in the battle ground states. >> that's the quietest pickup of delegates in the last couple of months, very unusual primary season, ending in very unusual fashion. here we go, general election, it will be joe biden versus donald trump. it's official. biden leading in our poll by 7

points, 49-42. interestingly, we had a bunch of different polls in the last week or so and you've seen margins that are even higher than this. if you average all the polls that are out there right now, you find joe biden leading on average by 8 points, notably if you look at this exact same point in the last four presidential campaigns, you don't see a margin that high, you see hillary clinton over trump, she was 4.5 points. only briefly saw her lead over donald trump in 2016 get to the level that biden is at right now. that's notable. we talked in 2016 how about the polls were wrong. hillary clinton won the population vote by 2.6. she wasn't like this.

i do think that comparison is worth keeping in mind as we keeping polls the rest of the way. the slippage we talked about with trump, one big example, white voters in our poll, six-point lead of donald trump in white voters. if you're going from 20 to 6 among the demographic as big as that, that's significant. among african-american voters that's close to what you saw in 2016. hispanic voters, this is a bit of an improvement for donald trump, but again, it's overwhelmed by his loss among white voters. white voters without a college degree versus white voters with a college degree, this is a big find. college educated white voters biden leading by 13 points. the exit poll in 2016 had trump winning this group and now

you've got biden up by 13. we've talked in the 2018 midterms n suburbs, metro areas, outside major cities, all those gains they were making, this demographic, this shift a big part of it, nicolle. >> steve, it looks like a whole lot more like the obama coalition of '08 really than '12 than it does hillary clinton coaliti coalition, that delta in white college-educated voters, and the giant, giant delta among voters of color, what does it look like to you when you look at the biden coalition? >> let me go back here. one number that jumps out at me, the bottom line, head to head comparison, not just biden is leading by seven over trump the fact that he's at 49, close to

50% right here. think back to 2016, hillary clinton was leading trump straight through, her numbers were often 44, 43, numbers in the low, mid-40s. hillary clinton wasn't breaking 50%. it's not just that biden is leading. biden is getting closer to 50. in fact, there are some individual polls out there that have biden over 50 and you weren't seeing individual polls, even though she was winning in the polls you didn't see her over 50% in those polls. >> such an important marker for anyone working on the campaign. this is a new thing, tell me about people who wear masks. >> we looked at this in our poll, too. here you go. we asked do you wear a mask outside home? two-thirds, almost 60% wear it

always. 21% sometimes rarely. there's a big difference politically. two-thirds of them are supporting biden. overwhelmingly rarely is supporting trump. boy, a vast gap there between those two groups. >> i wish for them health and wellness. i wish we could close that gap around mask-wearing. after weeks of protest in this country and a president whose leadership has increasingly come under attack, what are leaders around the world seeing when we look at us. we'll check back in with keir simmons next. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill...

...can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some-rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. that's rinvoq relief. with ra, your overactive immune system... ...attacks your joints. rinvoq regulates it to help stop the attack. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious infections and blood clots, sometimes fatal, have occurred... ...as have certain cancers, including lymphoma, tears in the stomach or intestines, and changes in lab results. your doctor should monitor your bloodwork. tell your doctor about any infections...and if you are or may become pregnant while taking rinvoq. take on ra talk to your rheumatologist about rinvoq relief. rinvoq. make it your mission. if you can't afford your medicine, abbvie may be able to help. for spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub? grubhub's gonna reward you for that with a $5 off perk.

(doorbell rings) - [crowd] grubhub! (fireworks exploding) i opened a sofi money account and it was the first time that i realized i could be earning interest back on my money. i just discovered sofi, and i'm an investor with a diversified portfolio. who am i?! i refinanced my student loans with sofi because of their low interest rates.

thanks sofi for helping us get our money right. ♪ protesters around the world

are continuing their show of solidarity in strikingly mirrored images to what we're seeing here at home. this as america's allies and adversaries are reacting to donald trump's response to the protest and the ongoing rebuke he's getting from our country's top military leaders. joining us now, once again from london, nbc news senior international correspondent, keir simmons. so keir, this was my friday afternoon tease. i had to wait all weekend to hear the answer. but what does the world think when they see three former chairmans of the joint chiefs, america's military, rebuking someone who doesn't just have the title of president, but in this country is also the commander in chief? >> yeah, you gave me the entire weekend to think about my answer, so i'll do my best. i think you can see a story arc, if you like, a comparison between military leaders and world leaders in the sense of trying to deal with this unprotectable, impetuous president. and you can see how at the

beginning, it's like cozy up and try and see if we can persuade him. then, there's kind of a silence, a kind of bewilderment. and then what's interesting, especially if you take the world leaders, and as you say as we've seen with military leaders, you have seen leaders speaking out in recent weeks about black lives matter and the george floyd case, speaking out in ways you wouldn't have done. from jacinda ardern to the prime minister here saying they are appalled and expressing different agrees of support for the protesters on the streets there. but it is another thing that is really echoing around the world, and that is though protesters on the streets. if america is the shining city on the hill, with, it is the protesters marching in the streets of america whose message is really shining around the world right now, and causing these new protests to sprout in

places from tunisia, where you'll remember the ara spring began all those years ago, all the way to new zealand, where they're talking about the rights of aboriginals. people are taking the message of black lives matter there and they are comparing it to their own situation and re-inventing the message in some ways, if you like. >> it used to be a standard line on any world leader call to sort of advocate on behalf of the rights of dissidents. as you said, taking one of the hallmarks of our democracy, the right to protest. what did the clearing out, the forcible clearing out of protesters in lafayette square look like from world capitals? >> it didn't look good. it didn't look good on live television. we saw an australian reporter on live morning tv in australia, she and a camera man being pushed over and silencing the studio and shock. so it didn't look good.

it has raised serious questions. we talked on friday, nicole, about the way that america's ability to send its message around the world has been changed by the internet and is being changed. so that pictures, and of course, it doesn't matter what language we speak, pictures tell a thousand words, are worth a thousand words. those pictures have an impact on america's message. and america's standing, while at the same time, ironically, the demonstratio demonstrations are reinforcing many people looking to america for inspiration, for democracy, for messages of equality. >> it's so interesting. and you add to all of that that we became the world's epicenter for coronavirus. it's truly remarkable. end andlessly fascinating to me how we're viewed abroad. keir simmons, thank you so much for coming back and spending some time with us. let's do it again. coming up, the 2020

presidential race is changing and for now donald trump has reason to worry. "deadline white house" next. i wanted my hepatitis c gone. i put off treating mine. epclusa treats all main types of chronic hep c. whatever your type, epclusa could be your kind of cure. i just found out about mine. i knew for years. epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate. i had no symptoms of hepatitis c mine caused liver damage. epclusa is only one pill, once a day, taken with or

without food for 12 weeks. before starting epclusa, your doctor will test if you have had hepatitis b, which may flare up, and could cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you have had hepatitis b, other liver or kidney problems, hiv, or other medical conditions... ...and all medicines you take, including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with epclusa may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects include headache and tiredness. ask your doctor today, if epclusa is your kind of cure.

yeah. this moving thing never gets any easier. well, xfinity makes moving super easy. i can transfer my internet and tv service in about a minute. wow, that is easy. almost as easy as having those guys help you move. we are those guys. that's you? the truck adds 10 pounds. in the arms. -okay... transfer your service online in a few easy steps. now that's simple, easy, awesome. transfer your service in minutes, making moving with xfinity a breeze. visit xfinity.com/moving today.

hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. the movement to change the relationship once and for all between police and the people that are supposed to protect, especially men and women of color in this country, is now in its 14th straight day and showing signs of strengthening. the death of george floyd and,

an unarmed black man, has ignited an uprising. at this hour, we're watching demonstrations resume all across the country, from new york city to san francisco. and in houston, crowds are gathered to pay their respects to the floyd family. george floyd will be buried in houston tomorrow after the third and final funeral service in his honor. among those gathered in his memory today, former vice president, joe biden, who met privately with the floyd family. and with the nationwide movement in george floyd's name for equal justice and policing reform gaining momentum with each passing day, donald trump's decision to militarize and federalize the response to the protest has been pulled into focus and has remade the political landscapes in ways that at this point are not favorable to him. retired four-star general and former secretary of state to george w. bush, colin powell, minced no words about trump in an interview announcing his

support for joe biden. >> the one word i have to use with respect to what he's been doing for the last several days is a word i would never have used before, i never would have used with any of the four presidents i've worked for. he lies. he lies about things. and he gets away with it, because people will not hold him accountable. we have a constitution. and we have to follow that constitution. and the president's drifted away from it. >> secretary powell is now one of dozens of former military and defense officials to issue warnings about trump in just the last seven days. in fact, he's the fourth former chairman of the joint chiefs to do so. and now a new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows 80% of americans share their sense that the country now feels out of control. and by a two-to-one margin, more voters are worried about the death of george floyd and the injustices his death represents and reveals than the protests that have occasionally turned violent and that have become a focus of trump bent on displays

of military might. this morning, those fears and anxiety shared with the vast majority of the country intersect with a politically grim outlook for donald trump. the most recent head-to-matchu s s against joe biden show trump down nationally by wide margins and down a full eight points by voters living in battleground states. all that as the black lives matter demonstration in washington, d.c. yesterday welcomed the first sitting u.s. senator from the gop, mitt romney, who marched with protesters in northwest washington and chanted, "black lives matter." the changing state of the 2020 race and the ground swell of support in this country for police reform are where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. from "the washington post," white house bureau chief, phil rucker. also joining us, basil smikle, plus, claire mccaskill. basil, let me start with you. i hesitate to cause and effect,

but as with the pandemic, donald trump seems to have dealt himself out of any leadership role in a crisis weighing on the vast majority of americans right now. >> yes. before i forget, shout-out to the business that got the large printing cloth order, by the way, who are the members of congress today. because that was a -- i think the showing there of democrats in the house, coming forth with this very strong package of reforms was very, very important to how we move forward. and it does show that not just donald trump, but republicans in the house, who did not -- none of them supported this bill. it hopefully will show how out of step with the country they are. i'm encouraged by a lot of the republican leaders that have come out in support for changes in policing, for -- in support of black lives matter. but i will just say this. my big concern has been and will

be, do those republican leaders have any influence over the grassroots? because, remember, that's where donald trump really pulls his strength. and if they don't have that ability to sway those grassroots, who i think in some ways are looking -- are still looking for law and order, heavy on the order, it's -- we're going to continue to have this conversation. but i'm happy that at the moment, at least, there are people willing to push donald trump back and he may look vulnerable. >> well, let me follow up, basil. because you just titillated the political strategies, still buried deep inside of me. nothing says law and order like three former chairman of the joint chiefs saying, nuh-huh to donald trump, militarizing the response to the protest. it would seem to me that a wise democratic policy campaign would

say, the people who find donald trump outside the bounds of law and order are three former senior leaders of the u.s. military. that's a pretty stinging indictment of his law and order credit, no? >> it is. and i think what is going to be important going forward is the concept of political defection, if you will, right? donald trump sought to do that with democrats that weren't very happy with hillary, for whatever reason. they didn't like hillary, so he fought to pull them to his side in 2016. the question is, can joe biden capitalize on what we've seen with these former joint chiefs and a lot of these republican leaders and military leaders, can he capitalize on that, walk this line -- because his campaign has said that he doesn't support to defund police. so i think he's going to have to engage in this balancing act to try to not only appease the democratic base, but also go after those voters that his campaign is predicated upon, those working class white voters

and suburban voters. i think he can do it, but he's going to have to get some of those to defect from donald trump in a way that donald trump got some democratic defections in 2016. >> claire mccaskill, basil here keeping it real from go. joe biden has to do both. and he's right. how's he doing and how does he do that? >> well, i think we ought to pause a moment and reflect upon how remarkable this outpouring of sentiment from military leadership is. this has never really happened before, in the history of our country. we're talking about the president's first choice for secretary of defense. we're talking about his first choice for leading the department of homeland security. we're talking about strong military leadership spanning over president, no matter what party, president after

president. you know, the military is a huge political gathering point politically in this country. everyone wants to support the military. my state is a very pro-military state. this has really got a lot of head scratching about what to think about this number of military leaders coming out in opposition to the sitting commander in chief. it's unprecedented. we have broken a lot of norms with this president, but this one, politically, is really causing the earth to shift slightly, plaurnarticularly undl of those senators that sit on the armed services committee, i've watched them fawn over these leaders, in realtime. now these leaders are saying, the president should not lead this military. >> well, claire mccaskill, you always hit pause at the right places in the national political conversation. let me stay here with you for a minute. secretary mattis was urged to be

forthright in his book about what he witnessed. bob corke, who wr, who was a st ally of rex tillerson, talked about really a lot of people saw him as speaking for mattis and tillerson when he described the white house as adult day care. now we know what mattis saw. he saw someone so divisive in his rebuke last week, he compared him to the nazis. but to basil's point, how does joe biden articulate this case, that law and order is important, but law and order aren't behind donald trump. the military, the men who speak for order around the world that are viewed as a force for good when there is a name or when there's an emergency, they don't think donald trump has what it takes to lead this country. >> well, i think the military -- so many military leaders that are widely respected coming out

against donald trump is going to have an impact on a lot of independent voters. but joe biden needs to stay focused on his commitment to reforming the rule of law in this country, on equality and justice. he needs to -- you know, this can't just be words this time. there has to be meaningful, systemic reform. there has to be a new system of accountability for police officers. there has to be. there has to be community-based policing, which, in fact, joe biden was advocating before we had the tragedy of the murder of george floyd. so i think joe biden needs to stay focused on reform of the police in this country, and i think the military leaders speaking out against trump are going to do what it probably biden wants them to do, particularly in the suburbs of america. >> you know, phil rutger, i'm a recovering political operative

and we are from a breed that tend to overthink this thing. there is a humanity chip. humanity saw three police officers put their full weight on a man until he died while people watching said, cut it out, guys, you're killing him. there is an incalculable impact on the electorate from that. and maureen dowd writes, a devastating takedown of the president's sort of lack of empathy -- i can't find it right now, but this idea of an empathy gap. you've got joe biden how privately paying his respects to the floyd family and a lawyer for the family tweeting out this. listening to one another is what will begin to heal america. that's just what vice president joe biden did with the family of george floyd for more than an hour. he listened, shared their pain and their woe. that compassion meant the world to this grieving family. the outcome of the november election is unknown to all of us, but the dynamics are not

shaping up in a way that's favorable to donald trump at this hour. >> they're not, nicole. and one of the most incredible things we've seen in this country over the last, you know, week to ten days, is that the people are moving so much faster than the leaders can keep up with them, than the president can keep up with them. we're seeing movement take root in the streets of our cities, but we're also seeing outrages spark on social media. and it's not just a video, of course, of what happened in minneapolis, but the video in buffa buffalo, new york. the officers going past that old person. just here in washington, there's a gentlemen who was in a viral video on the crescent trail in bethesda faulti ingassaulting al that went viral. our elected leaders are having trouble reacting to that, coming up with solutions in realtime to that and none more so than the president, who throughout these

three and a half years, has really almost never shown real sort of genuine empathy. it's just not -- does not seem to be in his dna. you know, i don't know if he has in any past episodes of his life, but as president, he had just shut that door in terms of showing some compassion and humanity to the people that he's been elected to serve and lead. and he chooses to respond with, you know, law and order, with show of force, with strength. that's a choice that he makes. but, you know, it could have political consequences, certainly, when we see these movements taking shape out in the country. >> phil rutger, that's such a smart point. the public is moving much faster than elected officials can keep up with them. on the empathy chip. obviously, none of us can understand why that is, but it is. he is incapable of doing one of the sort of three pillars of leading this country during tragedy, and we've got three right now in this country.

economic despair, a pandemic that is still killing americans and keeping a lot of our economy shuttered and widespread concern. 76 to 80% of americans concerned about police brutality. i want to read the aforementioned piece, phil rutger, from maureen dowd. she writes, i have always cherished washington's luminous monument. so it was excruciating this week to see the chucklehead who has waged war on our institutions, undermined our laws and values, stoked division at every time blundering around defiling the monuments that symbolize the best about america. after the country was rocked to its soul by the sight of a handcuffed black man dying while being held down by a police officer as those around begged for mercy, trump could hardly summon a shred of empathy. his only move was to grab a can of kerosene and cry domination. i think maureen's heartful and eloquent point is not only that he's missing the chip that allows him to hold this country in prayer or in mourning or just

sit in our grief with us, but he makes things worse. that's the charge against him. >> it is the charge against him. and maureen, by the way, such an astute observer of our president, especially this one. and she gets to a point there, which is, there's an outrage and most americans reacted to that video in minneapolis a certain way. and president trump did, to his credit, address it with words that were prepared in a speech that he read down in florida when he was at that nasa launch, but he has really not taken other opportunities to speak to the pain, to the suffering, to the fears that so many americans have, especially black americans. when he was in the rose garden last monday, to announce that he was going to be militarizing the response and threatened to send the american military into cities if mayors and governors can't gain control of their streets, he said almost nothing to speak to the human emotions that have been on display through all of these protests

and through all of this activism. and you know, that's how he leads as president. and a lot of his supporters like that. but the question in november is going to be that's what most americans want in the role of a president. we've always had a compassionate sort of empathetic president in that office, and it's very different right now. >> you know, i want to get around to all of you about what's on everyone's screens right now. we've got a live picture from brooklyn, new york. my colleague, rachel maddow, was on one night last week and said the crowds just keep growing. they show no signs of going home, and why would they. basil smikle, are you surprised by what you see? not just the size of these crowds, not just the diversity of these crowds, but the durability of their presence in our city streets night after night after night? >> you know what, i'm not surprised, but i am so happy. i'm glad, i am proud, actually,

that this is occurring, not only in terms of the number, but in the diversity, as you've said. and as phil said, and it's an extraordinary point, that the people always go ahead of the leaders here. and that's really the essence of what i -- what's concerning me here, that we continue -- we sustain this so that even the republican leaders and the elites will be moved to engage their grassroots and tell them, enough is enough. but even if that does not happen, there are well-meaning folks in this country that have had enough. and the fact that we've seen it, as you said, in buffalo, in tacoma, washington, where another young man was killed in the same way, with a knee to the neck, it's -- when we are at this point, we have to acknowledge that there is a

revolution occurring in this country. and i hope everybody is listening. >> well, claire mccaskill, there is a revolution and mitt romney isn't missing it. what did you think personally when you saw him marching yesterday? >> well, i thought it was terrific. i wish other republicans would get with the program. you know, this president understands the power of vishls. that's why he has such a penchant for those big auditoriums full of crowds of adoring people. the visuals for this president over the last two weeks have been brutal. whether it's our own military protecting the lincoln memorial for its citizens, which was kind of turned every american's stomach, that they had done that. and now this fence around the white house that's getting filled with cries of passionate artwork, about inequality in this country. the visuals are terrible for donald trump right now, to say nothing of the phony bible in front of the church. so we have visuals of the police

abusing citizens, we have visuals of the military trying to wall off our monument. and we have visions of the president walling himself off from the american people. this is not what president trump needs to have on television, if he has any prayer of getting re-elected. and for all of us that are praying the other way, i hope it's waking up a lot of people around the country. >> phil rutger, the president often overcompensates when he's losing the image war. any reporting on his next move? >> well, the move today is to double down on law and order. we had a briefing in the last couple of hours from the white house press secretary to really drive a point that the president is going to align with police and going to align with what he calls law and order and try to exploit divisions on the other side over whether and how much to defund police departments around the country, but we can expect that to continue. the president thinks he's on

safe ground by standing with police and law and order is one of the themes of this has 2015 campaign. however, a cautionary note would be, this is such a dynamic national movement right now, i don't know that all of the sort of political laws of gravity hold up, exactly. we'll have to see. but the president is making a calculation that being with the police is the place to be right now. >> it's always a calculation. phil rutger, basil smikle, thank you so much for kicking us off. when we come back, democrats today proposing a police reform package. what's in it? what does it mean? and why the phrase "defunding the police" might be up for an overhaul. also, donald trump continues to take aim at the nfl over its stance on kneeling, just as the league tries to find a new message on all of those issues. we'll talk about that story. plus, more on joe biden and his general election prospects.

all of those stories, coming up. ♪ limu emu & doug [ siren ] give me your hand! i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

now, i don't believe that you should disband police departments, but i do think that in cities, in states, we need to look at how we are spending the resources and invest more in our communities. maybe this is an opportunity to re-envision public safety. >> that was congresswoman karen bass, chair of the congressional black caucus on the need for placing reform in our country, but pushing back on the growing rallying cry among protesters to defund the police. defund the police calls for cutting police budgets and lessening their responsibilities in favor of other social programs. but some in the democratic party believe its message is going to sound too radical come november. like the party's presumptive

presidential nominee, joe biden, who put out a statement today saying he's against. joining our conversation, university professor at the new school, maya wiley. maya, i've been dying to ask you what you think about this whole conversation. and if we're getting it wrong in the way we're covering it. i count on you for the brutal truth. >> you know, i count on you for the great questions, nicole. and here's the thing the reason, as you said earlier, that more people are showing up every day to protest, the reason we are in week two, the reason that we are seeing a multi-racial, even multi-generational set of protests is because policing is fundamentally broken in this country. it's broken. or maybe it's not broken, it's just working exactly how it's supposed to. and the point about what people are demanding is, then break it. then make it different. meaning, not end safety, but

make it vastly different. and i think this is part of what we can do a better job of in discussing in the coverage that it is about justice for george floyd, of course, but that people are demanding something much larger and much more transformative. and it goes straight to the heart of, for example, in new york city, we literally have 1.1 million children in our public school system. we have over 15,000 people who work as school safety agents. they are police department employees. we have 560 psychologist. 560. so when you think about 1.1 million children with 560 psychologists and most of the investment going to a law enforcement model inside the schools, i think people are rightly saying, you have to cut

the police budget and change what we mean by policing, what its focus is, how it works, and we must use that funding to take rolls away from policing that shouldn't be policing, like people in our schools, and make it the people we need in our schools in order to keep them safe, which means dealing with the mental health issues students have, dealing with the problems that arrive and the safety net and supports they need, when they're in trouble. and we will have something different. so that call is not -- i agree that the word defund does not capture that, but i think what we're hearing about what the demand is is exactly right and we shouldn't get caught up in the word, we should get caught up in the clarity of the demand, and the demand is policing should not be what it is today. and we should have a radically different vision, and in my view, a vision of policing is

what we call problem-oriented policing, meaning focused, strategic, and partnering not just with communities, but with other agencies, because they're often the best on the front line to say, here are the problems that other agencies should be helping to fix. this shouldn't be a police problem, like selling loose cigarettes on a street corner because you don't have a job. which is eric garner. >> maya wiley, you just in two minutes brought more clarity to this issue than anyone who i have seen talk about it in ten days. let me follow up with one question. and i'll leave the semantic debate to others. but it sounds like what it is, in early childhood psychology is early intervention. and is that sort of the concept. you're getting to these kids before they're in trouble and having their first interaction with law enforcement. you're helping them, you're plussing up the things that will keep them from heading down that

path in the first place? >> that's part of it, nicole, but the other part of it, part of the reason that the protests are passionate is that the reason that kids are being pulled into the criminal justice system in the first place is there are assumptions about their behavior, not what their behavior actually is. let me give you just a very clear example. this was in "the new york times," just back in december. we have black and latino police officers who have filed a discrimination complaint against the department because they were instructed, according to them, instructed to leave white people and asians alone, go after black and latinos, if you see them jumping turnstile, in other words, not paying the subway fare. focus on them. get them into the critical justice system. by the way, so many new yorkers cannot afford the fares.

but we could criminalize that by taking them to jail or we could recognize what is it about the lack of affordability, the fact that people can't pay, as the first instance not to see them as criminal. and what blacks and latinos all around this country are saying, what i feel passionately about is, part of the call here is, start seeing us as people. stop seeing us as a problem. >> claire mccaskill? >> listen, maya and i agree 100%. but as somebody who's been through a great number of political wars, branding matters. and what i want to make sure is that unity of purpose that all of us feel is expressed qualitily. we have to do radical reform that is community-based. it needs to be about public safety, not policing. how do we make the public safe?

how do we make communities healthy. how do we deal with a homeless population? how do we have more drug treatment? how do we have more mental health assistance? how do we have neighborhood groups coming together and not the police telling them what they need to do, but rather, telling the police what they need of them in terms of making their communities healthy and safe. my fear about the term "defund the police" is that it will be misused and abused by people who will want to scare people, who don't dig down to realize that all of us want the same thing, that are advocating for this. nobody wants to see the status quo continue. we all want to see bad police be held accountable. we want to see a reimagining of policing in this country that puts on the color blind that's supposed to be there and that's not there now. but we've got to be careful about the terminology that we use, or it will get twisted in a political war and frankly for a lot of independent voters, they

want the police to quit abusing african-americans, but they also want them to respond if somebody's breaking into their house. >> you two have brought more clarity to these issues than anyone i've talked to. can i ask you both to come back tomorrow and keep coming back? you both move me and i think the two of you could fix america in all of our broken places if you put your minds to it. please, please promise me to be continued. thank you both. >> thanks. after the break, more proof that times change. just a few years ago, the nfl was at the center of the conversation about protests and police brutality. now the league is issuing an apology. but guess who's still not okay with kneeling during the anthem? that's next. when you shop with wayfair, you spend less

and get way more. so you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one. for small prices, you can build big dreams. spend less, get way more. shop everything home at wayfair today. but a resilient business you cacan be ready for it.re. a digital foundation from vmware helps you redefine what's possible... now. from the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours... to the university moving hundreds of apps

quickly to the cloud... or the city government going digital to keep critical services running. you are creating the future-- on the fly. and we are helping you do it. vmware. realize what's possible.

we the national football league admit we were wrong for not listening to nfl players earlier and encourage all to speak out and peacefully

protest. we the national football league believe black lives matter. >> it's a pretty remarkable statement, given the way the nfl has responded to on the field activism over the last few years. that was roger goodell, the league's commissioner, apologizing for the handling of protests over social injustices early on. you'll recall, a number of players wanted to draw attention to the issues we're now talking about every single day and thousands of people protesting over in cities coast to coast. they wanted to do that by kneeling during the national anthem before the games. the league was criticized for new rules that allow them to do. and colin kaepernick was banished from the league for starting the protest movement. donald trump used kaepernick as a tool, political weapon during the midterms to enflame a culture war. now he might be trying to do it

again. tweeting this, quote, could it be even remotely possible that in roger goodell's rather interesting statement of peace and reconciliation he was intimating -- big word for trump -- that it would now be okay for the players to kneel or not to stand for the national anthem, thereby disrespecting our country and our flag? nobody thinks that's what they're doing. joining us now, former nfl player, marvin washington, the former defensive end, played 11 seasons in the nfl for the new york jets, san francisco 49ers and denver broncos, and chief correspondent for "the new york times" mg, mark leibovich, who's written extensively about goodell and the nfl. let me start with you first, real quick, mark, what do you think brought goodell to do this? >> i mean, thing this is another case of the nfl being late on an issue. i think the nfl became involved in this last week. as usual, they sort of backed into it. drew bre drew brees, the star quarterback

for the new orleans saints made a remark that a few years ago had been a lot less controversial. he said that he feels that it's never right to disrespect the flag, which he was associating with kneeling at the time. there was immediate blowback, including from some of his teammates on the saints and he backed out immediately, apologized immediately, apologized twice. president trump immediately sort of criticized him for apologizing, and then drew brees, you know, went right back at the president, which was surprising to a lot of people, but he said, no, i do apologize. i mean everything i said, you know, my teammates are more important. you know, i'm learning about this. and so, frankly, the nfl and roger goodell was forced to act by what was a very uncomfortable situation earlier in the week. and i think, you know, to his, i guess, credit, maybe too late, but to his credit, roger goodell did make a fairly strong statement, compared to what he has said before. but as you mentioned, he doesn't mention the -- you know, the

issue just lurking over all of us, which is colin kaepernick. and also, the issue of what will happen if and when the games start in the fall, when there are, as there inevitably will be, more players kneeling than there were last year. so, look, roger goodell is a very powerful commissioner, but also has limited power in that unlike the owners he responds to, he does not have the power to sign colin kaepernick to a contract. so we're going to see how this plays out. but at the very least, i think it's a stronger statement than roger goodell has made in the past, but there's a lot of left unsaid and unspoken here that will play out as the season gets underway. >> marvin, do you think -- what do the players t s think when t see that statement and see how the league has struggled with this issue? >> well, they think it's progress. and one other thing that mark left out is that the players have put out a video that was started by an nfl employee that went rogue because the nfl still hadn't put out a statement. so he got some of the all-pro

and pro bowl players and high profile players to name the names that have been affected by police brutality over -- just since colin kaepernick was taking his knee. and the other thing is, is that the players are happy, because you're not -- you know, you don't shoot a guy when he's coming out the trench with his hands up. so there is support, but i want to see the owners get behind it. i want to see owners make a statement and do something like the players did, because roger goodell has power. and roger can do that now, because his legacy is consider. he's negotiating his last this he's going to do right now. i think he feels some freedom to do that. but, you know, i would like to see the owners come out and also, i would like to see kaepernick to go through the process to get on a team and not the dog and pony show that the nfl tried to do with him and slip in a waiver that protected him from future lawsuits. he's an nfl quarterback.

he's -- there are not 96 nfl quarterbacks better than colin kaepernick. somebody needs to sign him to a team and roger goodell needs to mention him by name, too. >> marvin, i want to show you -- marvin, the owners are, as you said, such an important piece of this. here's donald trump basically threatening or challenging the owners to be pretty harsh with players who protest. let's watch. >> wouldn't you love to see one of these nfl owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say, get that son of a bitch off the field right now? out. he's fired. he's fired! >> you know, marvin, even among his voters, i'm not sure it's going to land the same way. you've got all of these military leaders in america coming forward and saying protest is inherently american, peaceful protests. and that's what all of these

were on the field. do you think the owners will be fortified or stronger by the shifts in public opinion? >> i hope so, because not only does it happen in america, it's happening all over the world. and you're seeing these protests, but they don't have any issue with people protesting -- protesters who go to the state capital and protest about getting their hair cut or eating at wafflehouse. but they seem like they have a problem with communities of color protesting about them killing black men. so i think the owners, you know, if they're smart, other corporations have came out and made statements to owners to start, they need to get behind this, because they'll be on the wrong side of history and history is definitely going to judge them. i'm waiting for jerry jones and robert kraft, who's a good friend of mr. trump to come on out and make a statement, because this is not going away. this is still going to be here when they try to have their season, which i don't even know if they're going to have a season, but, you know, they need

to get behind this on and get on the right side of history. >> you're right. and you've singled out the two owners that i was wondering about. could i ask both you've to stay over for a quick break. i've got one more question on the other side. stay with us. we'll be right back. effortless is the lincoln way.

so as you head back out on the road, we'll be doing what we do best. providing some calm amidst the chaos. with virtual, real-time tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. for a little help, on and off the road. now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, we'll make up to 3 payments on your behalf.

for spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub? grubhub's gonna reward you for that with a $5 off perk. (doorbell rings) - [crowd] grubhub! (fireworks exploding) we're back with former nfl player marvin washington and "new york times" writer and reporter, mark leibovich. mark leibovich, this might sound cynical, but my question about the nfl is are they moved by the fact that it is not commercial

to not support reforms or are they moved by some -- i mean, did their hearts change? did they look at what's happening in this country and on the streets and say, as marvin just said, we've got to get on the right side of history? >> i think -- i mean, to be maybe a little more charitable than i usually am here, i think maybe their hearts have changed a little bit, just because this issue has moved very quickly, not just in the last three years including the last time since the president piped up about this, but the last few weeks, the last few days. this is a very, very fast-moving conversation that is happening in america right now that just continues to build and a lot of the people speaking out are very surprising, frankly. roger goodell being the latest example. but also, look. there is a couple of ongoing, real shames in the nfl right now. one is that there's not a single african-american owner of the 32. the some one non-white owner is the owner of the jacksonville

jaguars, chad khan, who is from spak t pakistan. there are three african-american coaches, which is a downward trend. and that is somewhat out of roger goodell's control, but these are businessmen. they're almost all billionaires. the people who own these teams. they are bottom line guys. many are trump supporters. many are republicans. the fan base at least three years ago of the nfl was predominantly republican. there is a big market for that is at work here. the question is, has the market changed. has the conversation changed? and i think if along with it, again, in a very passive way have the hearts and mind of the people who run the league changed? you can be very cynical and i, you know, it may be good business to get behind some of these causes right now, but i think in general, you sort of look at the nfl as an entity that has not always led on these issues. it's very early to give them the benefit of any doubt. >> marvin, what would your advice be to owners and teams

right now? stay on the right side of history and get behind what, 75% of your players, it's affecting them and their community. you know, don't just talk about it, you know put some actionable moves in place that are going to affect change in your community. because this is not going away. this is affecting their players, their families, their wives and what have you. so they need to get behind this, because they're on the wrong side of history with this. and whether it comes from a sincere place or it comes from it affecting their bottom line, do something about it. because this is not going away and aligning yourself with an ideology or a guide that's only going to be here for the next few months, hopefully, it's the wrong way to go. because, you know, this -- these protests right here, it's an opportunity for no -- not only for the nfl owners and how they deal with their communities and the communities of their players, but also an opportunity

for this country to change and we can see some differences in the way that police departments throughout the nations deal with people of color. >> you know i know that wants it to play. is there a role, even if he's not super interested in filling it for him to lead this conversation or help in this conversation? >> he should be a part of the conversation. yes, he should be a part of the conversation, he's the one that started it and brought attention and light to this when it wasn't popular, when he had the highest office in the nation up against him. he should be a part of this conversation. so, the next time the owners hold a player's council, colin kaepernick should be there at the head of the table leading this conversation. one other thing i want to say, earlier i said we want police to stop killing black men, my daughter sent me a text saying it's black people, because i don't want to forget about

breonna taylor. >> we are any of us without our children as our critics. thank your daughter on behalf of all of us. this is the beginning of a conversation i don't think is going anywhere. please promise you will come back often. after our break, a celebration of three lives well lived. to sleepy smudges... to shower-skipping. these days call for a quick clean. luckily, help is still one wipe away. love, neutrogena®. you can't always stop for a fingerstick.betes with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you don't have to. with a painless, one-second scan you can check your glucose with a smart phone or reader so you can stay in the moment. no matter where you are or what you're doing. ask your doctor for a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. you can do it without fingersticks. learn more at freestylelibre.us.

sit down for a moment, before her -- the middle school social studies teacher in brooklyn was twice denied a covid-19 test. zoe's friends say her struggle to get treatment was a product

of institutional bias. we'll remember her for who she was, a person with a caring heart, an incredible story tell teller. she was a young woman with so much promise. she fought for her students and the black and brown children left behind. she was a delight to her friends and she will be missed by her family. we want to celebrate harold and mary ann warnick today. if anyone else said an ill word about the other, good luck to them. they met on a blind date and were married in 1953. so many years later when they moved into an assisted living facility they were provided a get to know you questionnaire and asked what's the most important thing to know about her. she wrote i don't want to be away from my husband. she never had to be. she died of coronavirus on the

same day. their 67th wedding anniversary. that does it for our hour. thank you for letting us into your home during these extraordinary times. our coverage continues after this quick break. for small prices, you can build big dreams. spend less, get way more. shop everything home at wayfair today.

me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you. standing by you every step of the way. bye bye. i but what i do count on...ts anis boost high protein...rs, and now, there's boost mobility... ...with key nutrients to help support... joints, muscles, and bones. try boost mobility, with added collagen. if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to target weeds precisely and kill them right down to the root. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years.

welcome to monday.

it's "meet the press daily" continuing msnbc's coverage on a busy monday afternoon. you're looking at live pictures now out of houston where members of the public are paying their respects to george floyd's body at a viewing ceremony before he's laid to rest tomorrow. demonstrations are once again under way in cities across the united states as they have been now for roughly two straight weeks. over the weekend we saw some of the largest planned demonstrations so far amid a pandemic that is still raging. people gathered in washington, d.c., new york, scottsdale, philadelphia, denver and san francisco among many others to demand action. on capitol hill today, democratic leaders and members of the congressional black caucus kneeled in silence for 8 minutes and 46 seconds as they also unveiled a sweeping police reform bill designed to overhaul policing in america,