testing. so they don't have a handle on the pandemic in their states. you mentioned texas earlier in the broadcast. we have that gray as something not worrisome yet in our map but we saw the growth rate is 7%, which is right on the line between whether it becomes worrisome and the cases are outpacing the speed of testing. so worrisome signs impacts us now. >> the good news is increased testing means more readiness, preparedness for a possible phase two in the fall. thank you so much. i'll be reading axios a.m. in a little while. sign up at axios.com. "morning joe" starts now. george wasn't hurting anyone that day. he didn't deserve to die over $20. i'm asking you, is that what a black man is worth, $20? this is 2020.

enough is enough. the people marching in the streets are telling you enough is enough. george's name mean something. you have the opportunity here today to make your names means something too. if his death end up changing the world for the better, and i think it will, then he died as he lived. it is on you to make sure his death is not in vain. >> incredible strength. one day after laying his brother to rest. >> it is. it's amazing. is what that a black man is worth in 2020, $20, if his death changes the world, then he will have died as he lived. that plea at the very end so moving to ensure that george floyd did not die in vain.

>> that was george floyd's brother appearing before the house judiciary committee has congress debates the way forward on police reform legislation. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, june 11th, along with joe, willy and me we have former chairman of the republican national committee michael steele joining us, nbc news correspondent and host on msnbc kasie hunt. a lot to get to this morning. we're going to get to that emotional testimony in a few minutes. but first there are a number of developments with the coronavirus. the u.s. crossed the 2 million cases mark nationwide. that is based on nbc news numbers. and as infections in the u.s. appear to be spiking, many other countries are seeing a decline. according to a document obtained by yahoo news dated june 9th from the centers for disease control and prevention, the u.s.

had the highest spike of percentage change in daily cases with a 36.5% jump in recent days. that marks the biggest spike by a significant margin compared to the top ten countries in total cases. this compares to drops in cases in brazil, spain, russia, and india. nbc news has not obtained nor seen the document in question. meanwhile, in texas health officials saw a third straight day of record-breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. in arizona, the number of coronavirus cases has spiked just three weeks after the governor lifted his stay-at-home order. the rapid increase there has lawmakers and medical professionals warning there might not be enough emergency room beds to handle what could be a big influx of new cases. >> you know, willie, again, we have to look back to march to remember how these spikes

occurred. it's not like you have memorial day and a week later there's a spike. usually there's a two, two and a half week delay. so we have no idea what these hundreds of thousands of people in the streets will end up doing, as far as spikes in coronavirus. so this information is independent of what people have been seeing -- >> and troubling. >> -- in the streets over the past several weeks. >> yeah, this doesn't factor in the righteous protests we've seen over the last couple of weeks. this is about reopening the businesses as many states have taken the steps to reopen entirely or partially or with restrictions. so now we're seeing another spike in cases just as people like dr. fauci and dr. birx predicted. we haven't heard much from those two in the last month or so. but a senior administration official is telling nbc news

during a meeting yesterday members of the white house coronavirus task force expressed concern about a spike in cases across the country in the last two weeks following the protests of the death of george floyd. they reviewed the data and feel numbers as a result of memorial day are not significantly alarming but find the projection for cases in the next 10 to 14 days concerning. on a phone call vice president mike pence and dr. birx had a concern over spikes in cases two weeks from now, they said they were worried that coronavirus testing sites in some states were desfrtroyed as the number cases and taken down as the number of cases decreased in recent weeks, according to a source close to the call.

it's been a number of months since we had the daily coronavirus briefings obviously the news has shifted in the last couple of weeks. but coronavirus is here. there's a reason dr. fauci said a couple days ago it is his worst nightmare and we are just at the beginning of understanding coronavirus. >> how short sided would it be to take down any testing sites when you have health care professionals -- when you have the smartest minds in epidemiology saying we're at the beginning of this crisis, we're not at the end. we had dr. osterhome a month ago on here saying you people have to get real. we're in the second inning of a nine inning game. and the question is, how do we learn to live with this. we're going to have to learn how to live with it, how to have our economies open. and he had talked about -- it's very interesting. i don't know how many people that are watching remember what dr. osterhome said, he said

perhaps the first thing we do is send younger people back into the workforce because they're obviously more resistant. most of the people we have seen in the streets have been younger people. we can only hope that because it was outside, because there was ventilation, because there were a lot of masks worn that it won't be disastrous. let me tell you something, it doesn't matter what the cause is, and you're right, this is a righteous cause, it doesn't matter how righteous the cause, scenes like that in the middle of a pandemic should make any health care official extraordinarily, extraordinarily concerned because, again, even if -- well -- >> see, there are some -- >> there appears to be some social distancing there. >> i'm finding that hopeful when

you get some scenes across the country, there are definitely -- especially where there was unrest, people were crushed together. but then, you know, as this has played out, you can see an effort to try and put some space between people, which is very hopeful. but that's just too much we know this. >> and by the way, as far as again we're talking health care concerns and it -- willie, it's so support -- >> it's really tough. >> so support that it is black americans who are disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus. and there's obviously the concern among health care officials that it may not be the people that are protesting that are going to have the problem so much as the families that they go home to. because the one thing we are learning from the coronavirus is

this doesn't spread as quickly outside. in fact, when it's warmer, when you're outside, at least what we know for now, and the w.h.o. may say something whacky this afternoon that they have to take back the next day, but at least what we know for now is, usually from what we've seen so far, it explodes in clusters inside, in families, in confined spaces. so let us just hope that people who are protesting, when they go home they take extra care to be careful around their parents and their grandparents and their loved ones who have underlying health problems. >> when you look at those pictures for two weeks, it is inevitable that some of the protests will yield new cases of coronavirus, and michael steele obviously that was a risk that hundreds of thousands of americans were willing to take

for that cause but there's going to be more disease spread, there just is. the problem as well is you have a white house and a president of the united states that has turned the page. he announced he's going to have his rallies resume next week, like they were in a packed arinarena in tulsa, oklahoma. he tried to send the signal we turned the page on this, there's a few embers of this left and on we go. the data, especially the new data we're seeing in the last day or so, does not support the idea that coronavirus is no longer with us. in fact, it may be spiking again in places they hadn't seen it. it may be lower in new york city and los angeles and the major cities it developed but the rest of the country is seeing it now. >> the fatal flaw to your logic is you're relying on data,

willie. why would you do that? the president has moved on. we should all just move on. he intends to have rallies again. he's going to pack thousands of people into arenas and they will show up and they will pack themselves in. this is the precursor to his intentions to host the national convention where he wants, again, 50,000 plus people in space. so we are left yet again to decide for ourselves, absent the guy dan guidance and reflection of the administration what's in our own best health interest. clearly to the point the three of you have made about this moment where people felt compelled to go onto the streets of america to protest their concerns about police violence within the african-american community and george floyd, there were those who tried to practice social distancing and

to wear masks, et cetera. but a significant number of americans did not. so now we're going to have to bear that additional consequence. again, absent the leadership that would give us the kind of guidance that we could rely on to continue to protect our health. so what will people be saying in about three to four weeks as we see these spikes continue to occur around the country, remains to be seen. so we, again, are left to decide for yourselves what's in our best health interest, absent the appropriate guidance and leadership from the administration on this point. >> i'll say what i said at the beginning of this crisis when we started talking about this a lot in early march, and that is that the president needs to brief the american people and he needs to do it following, actually, the advice of joe biden that joe biden gave back in january where he said, let your doctors and

let your scientists talk about it. because the numbers are going to be going up. i really wish, during these last tumultuous two weeks dr. birx and dr. fauci had been allowed to go out and have briefings and speak to the american people -- >> i know. >> -- because -- because, again, we're on a two and a half, three week delay maybe. these spikes that we're seeing happening from what happened at the end of may, we're getting back out into the world. we're getting back out into our jobs, we're getting back out to restaurants. america is opening back up, and guess what. guess what, folks, it's going to open up. it's been closed down for as long as it can be closed down. most americans have had enough. they need, when we reopen it needs to be done carefully but we do need guidance from the

white house. it would be great if we heard dr. fauci talk about yes, the righteous cause in the streets over the past two or three weeks but you're probably going to see this sort of spike by the end of june. as we go to reopen businesses, we're going to live with these spikes. they're not dieing embers and donald trump is talking like he did at the beginning when he said this was one person coming in from china, it's not dieing embers as dr. fauci said. this is going to be with us for a very long time. as dr. osterhome said this is going to with us for a very long time. the only thing that will shorten the amount of time america has to live with the coronavirus is when we are vaccine. and we are moving, according to dr. fauci and other medical professionals, we're moving at a more rapid pace. we don't know if there's -- you know, what the time line is.

but there has been good news on that front so let's hope that's the case. >> yeah. >> but there are a lot of universities, a lot of colleges, a lot of parents like me that are going to have to make tough choices in the fall whether we send our children back to school again if they have underlying health care conditions. >> there's a lot at play as we work towards a vaccine. it's not just actually making the vaccine but how to make it affordable. how to get it to everybody. the ceo of pfizer wants to make sure this vaccine is available and affordable to all people but it's more complicated than just saying that. so the process is very difficult. and there are projections. now some models showing we could have another 100,000 deaths in the next few months, which is frightening. willie earlier used the word "destroyed," when it comes to testing. it seems to be so in some cases

for testing sites. dr. birx reportedly told the nation's governors that 70 coronavirus testing sites had been destroyed amid widespread protests in the wake of the death of george floyd. according to a recording of that monday conference call obtained by the daily beast, dr. birx reportedly confirmed that approximately 70 sites in metropolitan areas had been destroyed due to the looting that trailed the protest, hindering efforts to accurately gauge how many people have the virus and can result in further spread by asymptomatic carriers. nbc news has not obtained nor confirmed that recording. >> she should tread lightly on the ground if she wants to suggest for a second that protests somehow got in the way of the trump administration's disastrous rollout when it came to coronavirus testing. i do not -- i do not think that

she believes, or anybody else believes that the american people are that stupid. so maybe it was just a sidebar, let's hope. because, yeah, don't -- i would not blame george floyd's death on the trump administration's historically bad rollout for testing. >> yeah. >> let's talk about the push for police reforms on capitol hill. >> yesterday george floyd's brother appeared before the house judiciary committee. he said he's only seeking one thing from congress, justice for his brother. >> he was mild mannered, he didn't fight back, he listened to all the officers. the man who took his life, who suffocated him for eight minutes and 46 seconds, he still called him sir as he begged for his life. i can't tell you the kind of pain you feel when you watch

something like that. when you watch your big brother, who you looked up to your whole entire life die, die begging for his mom, i'm tired. i'm tired of pain. pain you feel when you watch something like that. i'm here to ask you to make it stop. stop the pain. stop us from being tired. george called for help and he was ignored. please listen to the call i'm making to you now. >> the rest of my life, that's all i ever see somebody looking at the video. kids have to watch the video. his kids have to watch the video. it just hurt. it's a lot of people with -- a lot of pain.

my family, they just cry and cry every day and just ask why, why. he pleaded for his life. he said he couldn't breathe. nobody cared. nobody. people pleaded for him. they still didn't care. justice has to be served. those officers they have to be convicted. anybody with a heart, they know that's wrong. you don't do that to a human being. you don't even do that to an animal. his life mattered. all our lives matter. black lives matter. i just -- i just wish wish i

could get him back. >> that was some of the most breathtaking testimony i've ever seen on capitol hill in the house judiciary hearing room was brought to a stand still. mr. floyd brought policy pitches but also brought humanity. he said, what i thought brought it down, my brother, george floyd, asked for help and he was ignored by those four police officers who stood there and let him die, i'm now coming to you to ask for help. the question is, will he get it. will there be reforms made so there are not more george floyds in this country. what happens to the proposal from house democrats, worked with senate democrats, will there be any movement among republican senators who, of course, control that body? >> and that plea, willie, to make it stop, i think certainly

struck me, he was pleading with the lawmakers that he was sitting in front of to do that. and it's impossible to look away from that. i think what we've seen over the course of the last week is that that is true, it is impossible to look away, it is impossible to pretend that something doesn't need to change for members of both parties, republicans and democrats, but it doesn't seem that republicans are putting a proposal together that goes far enough, makes enough changes in the laws that it makes a difference in the eyes of democrats. i'm struggling to see how they're going to come together here. there are a couple key parts of these proposals, i would highlight particularly in the democratic bill they want to ban chokeholds they can't do it outright but they can strip funding for any department that doesn't ban chokeholds. they want to ban no-knock

warrants. they want to create a data base to track police misconduct. right now officers benefit from qualified immunity so it can be hard to prosecute a cop in this situation, they want to change that. the republican proposal doesn't actually do any of those things, from what we can tell, they want to study chokeholds and no-knock warrants. it doesn't seem as though qualified immunity is something -- the president has drawn a red line and said he's not going to do that. tim scott the senator from south carolina said he doesn't think any of those proposals can get across the finish line. it's obvious and says something that the politics are such that the republicans feel they must be seen doing something. it's not clear it's going to be enough for democrats to say yes, we'll sign onto this. we'll see we're in the early

stages of this negotiation but the politics may be such that we can't actually end upcoming together and making something change. there's been a lot of examples and joe i know we talked about all kinds of examples on this show where we thought something would change things and ultimately it doesn't because congress is so gridlocked. i'm hoping that's not the case here but we'll have to see. >> republicans better hope that that's not the case here. republicans that want to get re-elected in the fall better hope that that's not the case. because, michael steele, they can play whatever political games they want to play, it's not like the republican party has a tin vote majority in the senate. they have a couple of vote majority in the senate. >> that's right. >> and one of those people are marching in the streets and the other one is saying she's troubled and dunt know if she can vote for donald trump again. let's be clear about this. it will be mitch mcconnell and

donald trump who will be the lone protectors of the chokehold. it will be mitch mcconnell and donald trump who will be the lone protectors of continuing to give bad cops immunity from their crimes. this is just b.s. that republicans say, we may not have the votes. again, mitt romney, lisa murkowski, susan collins, pick one or two more that could vote against chokeholds, that could vote against immunity for bad cops, killer cops. a very small percentage but a real percentage on the police officer. this thing, the republicans control the senate, not -- it's not really -- this is mitch mcconnell once again just like he's killing any voting rights acts reforms, he's killing any

bill that might actually make it easier for americans to vote that may make it harder for people to suppress the vote of black people. he's now doing the same thing. mitch mcconnell, the champion of chokeholds he could get this passed in the senate in a second if he wanted to. >> yeah, he could. you just laid out the crass political reality for republicans. you see that walk of shame when they're heading off to their senate lunch and pass our friend and colleague, kasie hunt and she's shouting a simple question, do you agree with the president's tweet, do you agree with the policy as it is? and they're like, i don't know what you're talking about. you will not have the runway to continue with that. this is not like the moments after sandy hook where you had significant push and then it died. this is a very different feel around this issue.

and republicans need to understand where the country has moved to on this. this isn't stuck in the partisan mores a where you can sit back and pretend it didn't happen or point fingers at the other side for putting out onerous legislation. tell me you are against chokeholds. tell me as a united states senate you do not want to fund police department with federal dollars that do not ban chokeholds. how is that complicated? where is the problem with that? and you don't think americans won't get that? then you are prepared to lose the senate in september -- i mean, november. this is how this works. this is not an issue where people are going to sit around the kitchen tables and debate it. they're marching on the streets. do you know why they're marching on the streets? if you understand why they're marching on the streets, you mean you cannot deliver the bare minimum of what they're asking

for? you're right, this is not a nancy pelosi problem, this is not a democratic party problem. this is a republican senate issue that could become a problem for them if they do not do the basic thing and just ban chokeholds. i don't get it. >> martha mcsally needs to demand an up or down vote on banning chokeholds. corey gardner needs to demand an up or down vote from mitch mcconnell on banning chokeholds. susan collins needs to demand an up or down vote from mitch mcconnell on banning chokeholds. joanie earns needs to demand a vote, susan collins needs to demand an up or down vote on banning chokeholds. thom tillis needs to demand an up or down vote from mitch

mcconnell on banning chokeholds. every republican who is up for election in a few months needs to demand, from mitch mcconnell, an up or down vote on chokeholds. mitch, guess what, i can't speak russian, so get an interpreter to tell this to you if you will. mitch, in america, we have elections every two years and you have an election coming up right now and you've got some problems because the kids are all calling you moscow mitch. you're going to be chokehold mitch, next. the kids are probably going to start calling you that because again you don't have a tin vote majority you can't hide behind the fact there are all these republicans i can't control them. mitt romney, susan collins, lisa

murkowski would vote to ban chokeholds. susan collins, with the race she's in will be very troubled and then, yes, vote to ban chokeholds. you're going to be asked about it on the campaign trail. it's going to be tougher than you think it is. all of the oligarchs you've been cavorting with, hanging with -- >> people know about it. >> yeah, it's out there moscow. as bad as the nickname moscow mitch is -- >> it stuck so quickly. >> -- chokehold mitch will probably be worse for you in kentucky. you're the only person in america right now -- you're the only person in america right now that is stopping this legislation from passing. this isn't like sandy hook

because after sandy hook you can blame the republicans controlling the house. blame the republicans controlling the senate, there's just too many. guess what, this will pass in a second in the house. and, mitch, if you'll keep the lights on in the senate chamber and allow an up or down vote instead of killing that up or down vote on chokeholds, it's going to pass. and you know it. and the opposite of that is true, if it doesn't pass, it's all going to be on you. lots of luck with that fella. lots of luck with that. whether you're campaigning in russian or in english over the next several months. do the right thing, mitch. guess what, i know you won't do the right things for the right reasons. just do the right things for the political reasons. and the right thing for the political reason is, let the

senate vote up or down on banning chokeholds. >> still ahead on "morning joe," former national security adviser to president obama, susan rice, joins the conversation. plus we'll talk vaccines with dr. scott gottlieb who ran the fda. also ahead lots of president's critics have used the words corrupt and politically motivated to describe the administration's actions -- >> can you believe it, the judge yesterday laid the department of justice low. >> now a retired federal judge is saying the same when it comes to the way the doj tried to explain away its position on michael flynn. >> the doj also known as william barr. >> we'll talk about that just ahead on "morning joe." about th ahead on "morning joe.

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joining us now, infectious

disease physician and medical director of special pathogens unit at the boston university school of medicine, dr. nahid badelia, she's an nbc news contributor, also with us national editor at the "new york times," ed luce, his new column "america is losing the stomach to fight covid-19". >> ed, tell us about america losing that stomach. >> the metaphor that the president endorsed and others embraced at the beginning of this fight was of a war on the virus. t and the president called himself a war-time president. but the relaxation right now and places with sharp rising rates of hospitalization, like texas, arizona, the carolinas, patchwork across america is if

you use the war metaphor, more like george washington going on vacation after crossing the delaware. this isn't being prosecuted like a war. i think the images of these teeming casinos in las vegas where, for the most part, they're not wearing masks is a better metaphor for how the federal government and some states are approaching this virus. which is hoping for the jackpot, hopining it's going to go away. at a time where a thousand americans are still dieing every day. and, of course, dr. fauci, not since april, been appearing on the podium with the president and the coronavirus task force is being wound down, but if you listen to the scientists, they say this is a -- it's like inviting a second coronavirus peak. all the wrong signals are being sent from the center and by many

of the states. so we're probably going to get what we don't want, which is another wave in the fall. >> or sooner. >> doctor, the country has been procussed on the protests for racial injustice in the last couple of weeks but in the last couple of days you heard dr. fauci and dr. birx both raise their hands again after being quiet for a couple weeks saying we're still here, although we've gotten the cases and hospitalizations down in new york, which was the epicenter and grew so much focus rightly so in the early weeks of this crisis, this crisis is still with us and in new places we hadn't been focused on before. so from your viewpoint, where are we in this pandemic from the united states? >> willie, thanks for having me. i agree with everything that ed said. the only thing is, i don't think we've left the first wave. most of the places we're looking

at now this is the first wave. 21 states are seeing steady increases in their cases, 12 states seeing increases in hospitalizations. when you talk about arizona they're at 83% of their icu capacity, what happens when there are no more beds and arizona is treating this still as not the fight it is. they have about 60 contact tracers, that's less than 1% to trace the new infections happening, they don't have the capacity to do that. their test positivity numbers are increasing again, 12.5 yesterday. so i agree, i think to me it tells me we can't have it both ways. we can't have an open society and not do the hard work at the public health level, the government level and individual level to make sure we prevent the new infections. right now that's not the tenor that's been set and it's going to lead to more death and

infections. >> doctor, let me ask about what we've seen in the streets the last couple of weeks. as willie said, it's been a righteous cause, not just for the life of george floyd but for a 400-year battle against systemic racism in the united states. and at the same time, we're in the middle of a pandemic. pandemic doesn't care about politics, it doesn't care about social justice, it doesn't care about donald trump trying to bully reality, it just kills people and it kills black people disproportionately because of systemic racism even when it comes to health care in america. but how -- but all of that said, how concerned are you that what we've seen in these protests, these righteous protests over the past several weeks that we're going to see a spike in coronavirus infections and deaths, and how concerned have

you been watching the crowds across america? >> joe, you know, you're right. this is a righteous fight and part of the reason is because it's not just for the 400 years of history, it is because even this virus is showing us the fault lines along with african-americans are suffering in a greater way than most other segments of our population. but any time you gather multiple people in a small space, a crowd of people in a small space, you're potentially putting people at risk to transmit this disease. so there is a concern there will be an increase in infections. the good news on the side of the protesters, this is outdoors and in some cases people have taken the personal responsibility of wearing a mask. my advice is continue to try to wear that mask, keep that physical distance and make an assessmentment, do you have vulnerable people at home, if you do what is your plan to

quarantine from them so if you have exposure and get sick you can keep yourself away from those around you that might be vulnerable. and to reduce activities that might put the virus back into the environment. use other items to make noise. and again, i think the big thing is allowing states where these protests are happening to get testing ramped up more so people can get tested if they have been to an event. >> kasie hunt? >> ed luce i have a question for you. we mentioned at the beginning of the show how some of the other countries in the world are experience rates of decline that are better than what the u.s. is seeing right now. that our numbers, in terms of cases and control of this virus, just don't stack up to places that, you know, we would normally expect to be able to do better than. what's your view of kind of how this impacts, you know -- will

americans be able to travel overseas? will other countries be worried about letting people in? what are the global ramifications of the continuing failure on this front? >> well, america is like the rest of the world, we're as strong as our weakest link. so countries that seem to be in effectively or incompletely unholding discipline on the scientific guidelines are going to be punished in terms of their travelers being allowed to visit. greece is a very good example. to many people's surprise, greece, unlike spain and italy, has had very, very low mortality, adopted social distancing early and are opening up as a result because they took the right steps. but they've got a list of countries where they don't want people arriving, unless they do a 14-day quarantine. if you're going to be vacating

in greece, it's completely pointless. so i think the united states, and other countries like britain, braitain is in a similr position not u.s., slightly worse in many respects, are going to find their travel, tourism, business travel will be inhibited by their country's poor track record of having serious contact and testing -- contact tracing and testing systems in place. america is still very far behind where it could be. >> yes, it is. ed luce thank you very, very much. we'll be reading your new column in the final times. dr. nahid badila thank you as well, associate professor at boston university medical school. thank you. coming up for the better part of the last two years, democrats debated the phrase medicare for all, now the phrase

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what i'm for is us taking a hard look at our practices and have it where we need them, we need the police, we want the police, they have a role to play. so let's not get so carried away we allow a slogan to hijack this

movement. so yes, reallocate resources, reform policing. no to defund the police. >> that is, of course, influential democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina speaking out against calls to quote defund the police. joining us now maya wiley and state attorney for palm beach county dave aaroningburg. let me talk to you about defunding the police and reforming the police. reform has huge support in this country right now in a way it never did of police departments. if you look at 75% of americans saying they support the protesters in the street, almost 70% of americans believe the killing of george floyd was representative of a larger problem in police departments in this country. but the only early polling we have on defunding the police is somewhere down in the teens.

i think congressman clyburn put it the way americans see it, we want to reform police departments, not take away from them all together. how are you looking at this debate within progressive circles? >>, you know, this is an important question. we should not get caught up in the word. we should get clear about the demand. and the demand is for transformation of policing. and so, what we're seeing, what i'm hearing, what is, you know, borne out by the statistics is we have done a phenomenal job of bringing crime rates down. by the way, they're dramatically down and have been for years. and the level of investment in traditional policing, policing that has resulted in the very strongly researched predictor that one out of every 1,000

black men will be shot by a police officer is that it has failed to take into account that that in and of itself is inappropriate policing in some ways and that we have not adequately invested our resources in the very communities that are overpoliced, over policed because, in fact, we are not -- and failing to recognize that we don't have a major violent crime problem in this country anymore. and, in fact, only 5% of arrests right now in this country are for serious crime. 5%. and when we heard george floyd's brother yesterday plead for it to stop, part of what he is, i think, pleading for, part of the experience of black people in this country with law enforcement is stop treating us like criminals for things that are either a small

misunderstanding or a small problem that we can solve in different ways. and let's put more of our resources, let's stop mushrooming police budgets at a time when we're talking about cutting schools. you know, we should be outraged about defunding schools, which is part of what we're seeing and hearing in communities across the country because of this coronavirus pandemic and the fiscal crisis. we should be outraged about the impact on schools' budgets, but instead we are discussing this as if the real problem is that people are demanding a very serious and hard look at policing resources, how we should police and how many of those resources should be moved to other places. >> to that point, $20, that's what george floyd's brother said yesterday, $20, that's what a black man's life is worth.

dave, you work as a prosecutor with police officers, what have you learned in the course of your job what kind of reforms would improve the problem while still keeping people safe? >> kasie, i think we need more use of body cams. make it universal. make them mandatory. there are many police agencies out there that still do not have body cam. and even though that have them, don't necessarily require the officers to turn them on and keep them on. that's a good start. there are other proposals by congressional democrats yesterday that will be also a good measure like the ban on chokeholds nationally or creating a national database for police misconduct. so we know when a rogue cop tries to move from agency to agency to agency, they often don't tell the new agency about their background. there are 18,000 police agencies across the country and we still do not have a national standard for the use of force. that should change. we need transparency and better reporting on use of force cases.

we should give the justice department the ability to investigate and prosecute cases of police misconduct like they had under the obama administration. we should have more community policing. put the police back on foot in the communities so they break down the barriers between them and the people they're supposed to serve and protect. and finally, none of these proposals would impact the job that we're doing as prosecutors. it'll actually improve public safe safety. and we can do our jobs of trying to convict the guilty and standing up for victims of crime. we're trying to prevent another tragedy like george floyd occurring because by the time police misconducts gets to my office as a prosecutor, it's already too late. >> okay, dave and maya stay there. after the break we want to talk to you both about the major developments pertaining to former national security advisor michael flynn and the department of justice. we'll be right back. flynn and tt of justice we'll be right back.

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a retired new york federal judge characterized the justice department's motion to withdraw charges against former national security advisor michael flynn as a, quote, gross abuse of prosecutorial power. >> those are strong words. >> yeah. that pretty much sums it up. in a 73-page brief filed wednesday, john gleeson told judge emmitt sullivan the doj's decision to dismiss charges was corrupt, politically motivated and the kind the judge has the power to advise against. he argued the facts surrounding the doj's motion to dismiss reveal an unconvincing effort to disgui disguise, as legitimate a decision to discuss that is based solely on the fact that

flynn is a political ally of president trump. flynn's attorneys will file their response later in the week. legal analysts for nbc news and msnbc maya wiley and dave aronberg still with us. you and i were talking about this a lot yesterday on instagram live, those words you find to be pretty severe, but where does it go from here? >> those words were extremely severe. i have to say, i don't think i have ever read a brief that so blatantly called the justice department liars, because that's what the brief does over and over and over again. where it goes from here, is the judge obviously has to wait to hear from the other side and he will make a decision whether or not he'll agree to dismiss. one of the most interesting things to me about this is judge sullivan actually asked mr. gleeson should i go a step further, should i also hold

michael flynn in criminal contempt for perjury, which gives him the ability as the judge essentially to put flynn in jail. actually what he says is, don't do that, don't do that. just go after him. even though he perjured himself again in this proceeding about dropping these charges. but use that in sentencing to increase his sentence. >> yeah, so michael steele, i know you have a question for dave, but i just -- i just -- you've been around washington a very long time, been a washington insider a very long time. and when you hear a retired federal judge accusing the department of justice, specifically really the attorney general, of a gross abuse of prosecutorial power, and use the word "corrupt," and talk about,

quote, something be politically motivated, that they actually are letting a guy who should be convicted walk because of his connections with a sitting u.s. president, i don't know about you and all your years around washington, but i've been in and out of washington and covering it for over a quarter of a century. i've never heard anything like this before. as far as sharp language, this blatantly condemning any justice department. >> yeah, joe. to maya's point, it's chilling. it was an absolute chilling rebuke of the polarization of the justice department. and that has been a growing concern not just in washington but certainly outside washington with prosecutors around the country. and that's the question, how does this rebuke read for a lot

of prosecutors like yourself, who are out there trying to fight that good fight every day and watching the attorney general use the system against itself. how does that translate? >> michael, bill barr is president's roy cohen, he's embarrassing our entire prosecutor profession, he makes it harder for us to do our jobs because there's less trust among the president. they see us as political instead of doing justice. justice is supposed to be blind not give special deals to friends of the president. it's a shame because the people who took up for michael flynn would have one-tenth of empathy for actual law enforcement abuse, in the case of george floyd, we'd be in a better place. i take this at the president's words, read the transcripts, the transcripts show michael flynn

lied. he admitted to lying twice. this is a slam dunk case. the only reason you're seeing this action by the department of justice is solely because of the relationship between michael flynn and the president. there are a lot of other people sitting in federal prisons right now who have a better case of law enforcement abuse than michael flynn. so it's an embarrassment for our entire profession and we have to deal with that every day, but this is what the president wanted. he wanted a criminal defense lawyer as his attorney general. and that's what he got. his got his own personal defense lawyer in bill barr. >> maya, judge gleeson in the 73-page brief used words like preposterous, absurd, empty, legally unsound. he went through and point by point took apart the idea of dropping the charges against michael flynn, but at the heart of the argument that the justice department was trying to make to get rid of the charges for michael flynn was that his lies to the fbi were, quote, not material.

judge gleeson goes through this point by point and says, this was an investigation into whether or not russia had ties with the trump campaign and with the incoming trump administration. he said, it's hard to imagine something more material than the lies that michael flynn admitted to when he said he pled guilty to when he was talking to the fbi. >> absolutely. he -- gleeson uses the department of justice's previous briefs against it. he said, it goes -- flies in the face with what the department has already told the court. i agree with what aaron is saying about the impact on prosecutors and on people's trust in the rule of law. it's even worse than that, though, here for this very important. it's not just doing a favor for michael flynn as a friend of the president. it is politically motivated to influence an election.

it -- that very point on the attack on the fbi's probe to begin with, is an effort to try to say, all of the -- all of the claims that somehow i -- you know, donald trump -- did something wrong here deserved my impeachment inquiry really compromised the constitution of this nation was wrong and was a political attack on me. that is to give him talking points for his re-election campaign. that's beyond taking care of a friend. that's taking care of yourself at a level that's so deeply corrupts the constitution that that's why gleeson, i think, is so viscerally like just gutting this department motion to dismiss these charges. >> maya wily and dave aronberg thank you both.

more news involving bill barr. in a letter over 1,200 justice department workers yesterday called on the agency's inspector general to investigate the attorney general's role in forcibly clearing protesters near the white house last monday. according to "the washington post" the signatories include former prosecutors, supervisors and trial lawyers who served in both republican and democratic administrations. the letter reads in part, quote, we are disturbed by attorney general barr's possible role in ordering law enforcement personnel to suppress a peaceful domestic protest in lafayette square for the purpose of enabling president trump to walk across the street from the white house and stage a photo op at st. john's church. if the attorney general issued orders to officers of a variety of federal agencies, including

u.s. secret service, u.s. park service, d.c. national guard, and u.s. military police, it is unclear under what purported authority he did so. we are asking you to immediately open and conduct an investigation of the full scope of the attorney general and the doj's role in these events. the rule of law, the maintenance of the department's integrity, and the very safety of our citizens demand nothing less. the letter was organized by a group called protect democracy. which has sent similar letters against barr in the past calling on him to resign. spokespersons for the justice department and the inspector general declined to speak with "the washington post" about this. >> the further we get away from it, a lot f us knew at the time it was going to be an important day, not just in the trump presidency, but also -- >> history.

>> -- in american history. but june the 1st, 2020, the further we get away from it, really is starting to look so -- so more clearly like the low point. the day that was a low point of the trump presidency and really also the culmination of all of those autocratic instincts that donald trump carries around and carried into the white house and still carries with him today. they were all visualized, all of the moorings were loosened and donald trump, with the help of bill barr, acted on his worst anti-democratic demagogue-ic instincts and the consequences have been so severe for him politically, i was talking to a police officer yesterday who's also a retired military person, who told me that his -- his

friends in the military up and down the ranks all agreed with mattis, all agreed with mullen, all agreed with every admiral and every general and every military leader who said what happened on that day was un-american, was anti-democratic and actually undermined the united states military's mission. >> yeah, and remember the white house thought it had a, quote, iconic moment with the president standing in the front of that church holding the bible upside down. they didn't understand exactly the foundations of the country and that the american people and those generals and admirals you just mentioned would not react well to a square being cleared of peaceful protests by force so that the president could have his photo op. you mentioned william barr, we showed the pictures a moment ago but william barr taking the steps to walk the square to

serve a what should happen. he has tried to distance himself saying i wanted to look how we could extend the perimeter of the white house as we saw rioting in the streets of our capitol hill city and said he did not give the orders, but somebody did, somebody had the tear gas, the flashbangs put out so the peaceful protests could be scattered so the president could have that moment there which in real time the white house thought was, quote, iconic and now has caught up to them completely. let's bring in sam stein and erin hanes, editor at large for the 19th a nonprofit news room focused on women, politics and policy. good morning to you both, erin i'll begin with you as we talk about everything swirling around the justice department but as jos jo joe says that day will live in

infany as the president had the square cleared. >> i think that is a day a lot of americans will not forget. in the shadow of the white house, in lafayette square, people who were peacefully protesting were teargassed. you saw law enforcement on horseback pushing those protesters out of the way so the president could go to a church that he, you know, didn't even give the head of that church a heads up before he showed up there. so many people were offended by the op tics of that, even as the white house really was saying that they thought that this was a win for them. there's been so much backlash to that. i will say, the other thing about june 1st is that it was marking the anniversary of the second day of the tulsa race riots. i bring that up because the

president has said he plans to hold a rally there on junetee h juneteenth, next friday. so these kinds of messages about law and order, the timing and location of his next rally, they're sending a message to protesters, largely african-american, about how he plans to govern and what his priorities are headed into the home stretch of this general election campaign. >> yeah, and, you know, sam stein, again it is -- looking at june the 1st, it is hard to imagine an event that better summarizes all of the president's critics' greatest concerns about him, his anti-democratic instincts, his autogr autocratic impulses, his

demagoguery. his use of religion in an awkward way. i know that maureen dowd said she was surprised the bible didn't catch fire in his hands. but peg gi noonan saying he gave up the game and patronized his followers. it was as if he was saying i'm going to show you how stupid i know you are. i'll give you crude and gros imagery and you'll love it trump thought because you're crude and gross people. and peggy goes on and just says that the consequences of this is that donald trump showed just how cynical he was and just how little he thought of his followers, and i'm also hearing from some evangelical friends who saw june the 1st as -- the

numbers are still high but not as high as they used to be. saw june 1st as the end of the day they would end up supporting donald trump. they're not going to vote for joe biden most likely but they may just stay at home and not vote at all. >> yeah, no. i still can't -- i'm like willie, the thing that amazes me is that there were obvious people inside the white house who envisioned this and cooked it up and imagined it being this iconic moment. i can't for the life of me understand what kind of calculus went into that thought process. every sort of instinct that is counter productive, the anti-democratic instinct, authoritarian intickstinct, thea of holding the bible like it was a product on the home shopping network was clunky and pulled the current from president trump, i think. for me i think it's because

there's this conception of trump as a master of stage craft, he might be bumbling on policy but he knows the media. but in this case this blew up so badly in his face in a way that was almost surprising. not only that he's continued to show these instincts. this morning he's talking about sending the national guard or military into seattle to, you know, produce some sort of law and order as he envisions it. of course, the speech in tulsa coming on juneteenth is of the same stripe. so, you know, i do look back at that moment on june 1st and think of it as a seminal moment. but i am wondering why this one caught fire in a way that previous ones did not. the only thing i can say is the visual. just the stunning visuals of it all. >> the visual, i said in real-time that this was the worst moment in the midst of a presidential campaign, even

though it was far more serious than when michael dukakis put on a helmet and jumped into a tank because it revealed how awkward they were in similar situations. donald trump holding up a bible as senator langford said, in a way that he had never seen anybody ever hold a bible and senator langford reminded people that he read the bible every day. i also think, though, willie, donald trump always exploits outside controversies, whether it's the nfl and kneeling during the national anthem, or whether it's charlottesville. in a case like charlottesville, he's masterful in having it both ways. he will at one point say, of course, i condemn the fascists and i condemn the white supremacists, of course. and then on the other hand he will say there were good people

on both sides. it allows his supporters all of these years later, after he preached moral equivalency between white supremacists and neo-nazis, who organized that rally by the way, and then people that were protesting against them. but in this case he called the shots. and this case he sent out his roy cohn, in this case he is the one that had the park cleared. in this case he was the one that walked through an area that, you know -- where they'd used chemical agents and then the attorney general lied about using chemical agents. in this case he was the one that perverted the use of the military and the -- and had general milly walking alongside of him, a disgraceful move which, of course, general milly backed off of quickly. he had the secretary of defense doing the same thing, something that repulsed active duty

military personnel, repulsed retired admirals, retired generals, repulsed most people in the military. so there was no pointing to somebody else here, there was no blaming somebody else. donald trump was the architect and the author of this disastrous moment in his presidency. and that's why it's not going away. >> and the reason we know it was calculated is because moments after it was over the white house from its official account put up a video, effect i'ively campaign video, with music under it showing the president walking through, striding through with that look on his face that you used to see on "the apprentice" with all the people behind him, his aides, his daughter carrying the bible for him in her purse, he made a calculation that somebody tried to burn down that

iconic church and he was going to stand in front of it, i support this church, i haven't read this bible, i haven't visited this church much but i'm standing here for you evangelicals, i'm not going to let this happen. it backfired completely. we know it was a problem for him when republican senators, you mentioned langford, sass, a group of others came out immediately and condemned what they saw in the clearing of the plaza and the trip to the church. then the dam broke with admiral mullen speaking out and general mattis and military generals and admirals saying this is not america, this is not how we do things. so the president and his small group of advisers in the echo chamber in the west wing thought this will be good for us, this will be a good visual, a good photo op, as you say it has backfired extraordinarily poorly for him up to this point. we'll see it holds.

a lot of time between now and election day but there's no question that day largely to these protests but also the coronavirus have impacted him. lebron james who has spoken out in the past, but other prominent athletes and entertainers stepping into politics now, starting a new group to protect black voting rights ahead of the 2020 election. the organization called more than a vote partly will be aimed at inspiring african-americans to register and vote in november. lebron telling the "new york times" he plans to use his high platform on social media. some other current and former basketball stars joining in on the effort include trey young and jalen rose. he also said he wants to be a model for future generations

saying i'm inspired by mohammed ally, kareem abdul-jabbar, oscar robinsons. hopefully some day down the line, people will recognize me not only for the way i approached the game of basketball but the way i approached life as an african-american man. michael steele this not knew to lebron james. in 2014, around eric garner's death he wore a i can't breathe t-shirt on the floor. he has spoken out. but we also have seen people we don't always see speaking out because they're worried about alienating certain constituencies we tha're coming saying we have to use our massive celebrity to make change in this country. >> i welcome lebron's voice in

this conversation, particularly as a lot of us are on the front lines voting, fighting for vote by mail and a process this november that will allow unfettered access to the ballot box. some may criticize lebron and say you're at a point in your career where you can make these statements and you can risk something. but this is not that. this isn't about what's in your bank and the last line of his quote is the important part of it. this is who i am as a black man in america. and as a black man in america in this moment, i need to stand with other black men and women. i have to stand with my community to assert our right -- rights under this constitution. and if i have the platform and the voice to do that, then i am obligated and committed to doing that. and that's a very powerful statement and it has risk that goes beyond the wallet.

and so, for him and others to move into this space at this time, willie, i think is significant. and it is a paradigm change on so many levels, the impact that the death of one man, george floyd, has had across not just the politics of this nation but the culture, the economics, and how we see ourselves. and so welcome, lebron, and may others join you in raising their voices for this effort. >> errin haines i would love your take on this, there's a sense this has been an issue for a long time and it hasn't been heard and the frustration has now boiled over and to have mega stars like this jump into the fray could really be impactful. we had madeleine albright on the show yesterday and she is extremely concerned that the elections go well. this is another space where

major black celebrities and impactful stars can make a difference and perhaps change the course of history. >> absolutely, mika. you know, you've seen lebron starting this voting rights group at a time where voter suppression, voting rights, access to the ballot box and people being able to participate safely in our democracy are on the minds of many americans, including african-americans who we know are disproportionately dieing of coronavirus and want to be able to safely participate in our democracy. oprah winfrey had a two-night special on race relations in america and where we go from here. race and racism as i said repeatedly are on the ballot for people in 2020. i think that is something that we are seeing as an important political issue for folks. the folks who have been in the streets protesting for much of this month and i think that's

going to carry into november. i interviewed stacey abrams last night and talked to her about what happened in the georgia primary last night, which i think alarmed a lot of americans, what they saw on tuesday night, voters in hours long lines that was a debacle in our democracy. i think you're seeing what i heard from her was that, you know, there are too many folks who have normalized the idea they should have to wait in a long line showing up with water bottles and snacks and extra phone chargers expecting to be in line for hours and hours. that is not normal in our democracy and it should not. i think it's amazing how many black americans are willing to put their careers, their celebrity on the line in this moment. bubba wallace at nascar calling for confederate flags to be gone from nascar and here nascar is

saying they'll no longer have confederate flags at their events. so we have people putting their reputations on the line for change they feel has to come now. >> sam stein, i'm curious your thoughts over what's happened the past several months as far as the american people go with the coronavirus and now, of course, these protests following the death of george floyd. of course, you and i have been in a media world over the past several years that's been divided, me longer than you, even when i was in congress, you had talk radio and then cable news shows, that that -- and networks that would talk to people on the left and another that would talk to people on the right, websites, of course, doing the same, a real cottage industry, trying to pull americans as far apart as possible. but just curious, what are your

thoughts about you look at the polls and see the majority of americans support the protests in the streets. the majority of americans were moved and extraordinarily responsible if the first stage of the coronavirus, sheltering in place not only protecting themselves but protecting their neighbors and communities, and a real bipartisan on these two huge crises that we have had. do you take any hope out of that? do you or do you still see the united states and the population divided in the a way that talk radio and some people on cable news and online would love them to be divided? again, just so they can make more money demonizing the other side? >> joe that's a deep existential question at 7:30 in the morning, i've had one cup of coffee, not

sure. i guess i take some hope out of it although it's tough to take hope out of a moment where 110,000 people are dead and you have racial protests. but to the degree that saner voices are prevailing, at least by public opinion polls, it's nice to see and it's not because the media landscape is less tribalized, we have networks, fox among them, who are programming in a way that's designed to be devdivisive stil. so if i have to take something out of it, one people are not buying into it anymore or two people have so many ways to get information, in this case the direct video uploads so we don't have to trust third parties to sort it out for us. the one thing that still depresses me, it's sad through

the voting rights conversation and this conversation, is do we have the elements of oversight and accountability to make actual change here. in georgia we have these long lines causing a massive public uproar and sparking in this case the most famous basketball player in the world to start an organization to fix this stuff. but what kind of actual changes can be produced when the levers of power in the state are controlled by people who don't really necessarily have an interest in changing it. same thing with "breitbarbill b have 1,000 former doj employees saying you need to investigate this abuse of power by the attorney general. well, the trump administration has been on a campaign to fire inspectors generals, and bill barr himself has snubbed his nose at the congress for oversight. so while i am heartened with the actions of some of this stuff, i

qualify that that we don't have the oversight to produce the type of change that seems needed now. >> of course, the voters will have the ultimately oversight in the fall. >> will they though? there's voter suppression. >> well, that's what, i think, everybody has to be focussing on between now and the fall to make sure every american that wants to vote, be they black or white, republican or democratic or independent have the ability to vote. and i'm so glad that lebron james and others are stepping forward. michelle obama has been talking about this, others are stepping forward having their voices heard. but -- and i agree, mika, you look and there are a lot of things to be concerned about, but i'm also looking at the fact that a retired federal judge was asked by a sitting judge to speak out on what happened in a case that was clearly politicalized. and we heard yesterday about gross abuse of prosecutorial

power, corruption inside the department of justice, and something that was politically motivated simply to help the president of the united states out and that retired judge recommended to the sitting judge to pursue the prosecution against a man who lied to the fbi and that lie, according to the retired judge, very relevant to the underlying investigation. >> sam stein, thank you very much. errin haines thank you. still ahead susan rice is our guest, we can talk to her, we'll be right back. tan lk to her, wel be right back. hard to breathe. so to breathe better, i started once-daily anoro. ♪ copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night.

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get a powerful and reliable internet and voice solution for only $29.95 a month for three months. call or go online today. welcome back. joining us now former u.s. ambassador to the united nations and former national security advisor to president obama, susan rice. her recent book is "tough love, my story of the things worth fighting for".

she also recently wrote a "new york times" op-ed entitled "washington d.c. deserves statehood". very great to have you on the show this morning, thanks for coming on. >> thanks so much, susan. we want to talk about your op-ed on d.c. state hood and the events of the last couple weeks. but first talk about donald trump's uni lateral decision to withdraw from germany and how many foreign policy leaders on the right and the left, both republicans and democrats are extremely worried and worried this is a big win for vladimir putin. >> good morning, joe. good morning, mika, it's good to be with you both. the withdrawal from germany, which the president apparently decided on his own without any consultation with one of our closest allies, is another very serious self-inflicted wound in terms of our security and our global standing.

we have long had a very important military presence in germany. that presence is there for many different reasons, but among them as a place to prepare for and ready if necessary nato and align forces in the event of russian aggression. and for the president to unilaterally declare the withdraw of a third of those troops, over the objections of the german government, underscores the fragility of nato and president trump's lack of commitment to the alliance, which is a gift, as you said, joe, for vladimir putin and it puts our security at greater risk. it's just shameful. >> i would like to ask you about washington d.c. and your belief that it does deserve statehood. this has been an ongoing quest. but you make the case in a

recent piece that the events of the last two weeks really underscore or drive home the reason why d.c. should be a state. can you tell us about that? >> yes, mika. i think most americans don't understand that there's 700 -- more than 700,000 american citizens in the district of columbia, they don't have voting rights in the senate or the house and no degree of sovereignty or autonomy so when president trump wakes up on the wrong side of the bed as he did about ten days ago, and decides to send heavily armed federal forces, helicopters, hum vie into the district of columbia against the request of the mayor he can do that. the district, we pay more taxes per capita than any state in the union. we pay more absolute taxes and

total taxes than 22 states. our population exceeds that of wyoming and vermont and comparable to several other states and yet we are denied voting rights. it is time, there's legislation that is pending in the house, hr-51, that would make d.c. a state. we've satisfied all the of the prerequisite requirements and if the senate and the house and the president were to sign legislation to that effect, we would eventually become the 51st state. now obviously, while it might pass the house, there's no chance of it passing the senate or this president signing it, which is in my judgment one more reason for sweeping change in november. >> ambassador rice, it's willie geist. this has been out in the atmosphere for a long time, residents of d.c. want representation that has as they're being taxed. but why the push right now? do you see something

particularly urgent in this moment about getting statehood for d.c.? >> yes, willie. the reason it is so urgent is because we've seen, in very painful and frankly violent terms, what the lack of statehood can bring to the residents of the district of columbia. we had federal forces beating up citizens of the district of columbia in front of the white house. that could not happen without the consent of a governor if we were a state or at least there would be a very high bar to be crossed legally for that to happen. so last week with the unilateral deployment of all kinds of forces, many of them without markings, without insignia, without any clear chain of command in here doing some very disruptive and frightening things to largely peaceful protesters to me underscores the urgency and the necessity of

statehood, particularly when you have someone in the white house who could care less about the people of the district of columbia and using us, frankly, as a political prop to bolster his so-called law and order credentials, and frankly, also, willie, to spark the kind of violence that i think that would be beneficial, in his judgment, to him politically. and we do not need racially charged battles on the streets of the district of columbia or any other part of this country. and thankfully, the residents of the city, the peaceful protesters, didn't take the bait and rise to the provocation. but i think there's no question that it can be perceived as a provocation. >> you know, madame ambassador, as you certainly know far better than me, the march towards civil rights has been a long and torj rous one in the united states.

1865, the end of the civil war, 1963 to 1965 martin luther king's march, the election of barack obama in 2008. i'm wondering where 2020 stands in your mind in that march forward through a more perfect union. >> joe, obviously it's too soon to say but i hope 2020 goes gdon in the history books as the year america finally recognizes we are combatting systemic racism, not only in our police and law enforcement apparatus, but in many aspects of our society, from housing to education, to health care, and we have a moment. what we have seen across this counted, these multi-racial, multi-generational, largely peaceful protests in recognition

of this disparity, in recognition of these injustices and a real call, unlike any that i've seen in my lifetime, some 55 years, for radically changing a system that has oppressed african-americans and people of color in this country. i think it can be done. but, frankly, the jury is out. the protests have been powerful, they've been very moving, particularly their character, that they have attracted the support of so many across this country, those that have come out to protest and those that are cheering them on from the sidelines. but a key critical test will be something you talked about earlier in the show, which is weather fundamental legislation such as the justice in policing act that has been introduced in the house and senate by the democrats can gain bipartisan support. there is really nothing radical in that bill whatsoever. it's common sense stuff, banning

chokeholds, banning no-knock entries for suspected drug cases, having a registry of offenders so they can't move from one city to the next. these are common sense things but if the republicans in congress and the white house cannot come on board with this, this is a moment that underscores how deeply entrenched all of this is and how much radical change is needed at the ballot box to make it clear we need leadership in the white house to support these changes that the american people now recognize are long overdue. >> i wanted to ask you before you go about the man who held the position that you held briefly, former national security advisor michael flynn and the condemnation by the retired judge yesterday on the developments pertaining to his

case. it is, obviously, very strong words used in terms of how this has been dealt with, but what next. i don't think anyone expected -- this is very uncharted territory. what's the oversight? what's the consequence, though, down the road? >> mika, i'm afraid this is not a subject i can personally share much light on. i read the articles reporting on the federal judge's assessment of the situation. but i'm not a legal expert, and i will, like every other american, watch to see how this plays out. >> fair enough. former national security advisor, susan rice. thank you very much for being on with us this morning. again your new memoir is entitled "tough love. my story of the things worth fighting for". susan, thank you so much. joining us now, former fda

commissioner, dr. scott gottlieb, great to have you on. there's a lot to talk about dr. scott gottlieb. i want to ask you about the covid cases not only topping 2 million, that number, but the assessments that we might have up to 100,000 deaths in the next few months and insurgences and increased hospitalizations. how would you assess where we stand with the virus right now? >> look, we have continued spread. we have not quelled the epidemic and it's continuing to expand, but it's expanding more slowly than it was. the doubling time right now is about every 60 days so we'll continue to have cases. i think the overall death rate is going to come down, even as the cases continue because we're learning how to treat people more effectively so we're preserving life more effectively. if you look at the doubling time of 60 days, by the end of the summer we'll have an epidemic

where 10 to 15% of the population has been exposed and many more deaths from covid-19. the states that right now have outbreaks under way, texas, arizona, south carolina, north carolina, georgia looks hot right now, these aren't states where they quelled the epidemic and this is a second wave, they never got through the first wave. they had the slow burn of infection and now they're having a resurgence. and the seasonal effect may be working in reverse, it's 100 in phoenix right now, 95 in houston, so people are driven b indoors so that could be contributing to the spread. >> doctor, what impact are we likely to see from the mass protests over the past several weeks? obviously, as willie said, it's a righteous cause, it's a cause for the rights of black men and women across america. at the same time, it is black

people who are disproportionately impacted by covid-19. what concerns do you have and do you believe that those concerns could be mitigated by the fact that the protests were outside, we saw a lot of masks in the crowd, and there was, at some point, as we saw in some of these scenes, not here necessarily, some social distancing taking place. what are your concerns? what do you think the overall impact of these protests may be on infections and deaths in america? >> right. the protesters were driven to take the acts they did, based on the injustices per vasive in ou society. people took the protests recognizing the risks. you saw a lot of masks in the group. but there's going to be infections coming out of those large gatherings probably less than if they were held indoors

but thinking of the prevalence of infection, one in 200 people, roughly half of them are asymptomatic r efficiently, but capable of spreading the infection. so you can do the math on how many people were within those crowds probably with covid-19 at risk of spreading it. so we will see infections coming out of those mass gatherings. how much, we don't know. and it's going to be hard to fully isolate that effect because we're seeing cases go up across the board in large cities. and so it's going to be hard to tease out the impact of these protests. >> and obviously a lot of people were concerned about and confused about what they heard from the w.h.o. doctor talking about the asymptomatic spread of this virus. can you clarify for people about

if they saw the news from that press conference, about how covid-19 does spread asymptomatically? >> well, there's clear evidence of asymptomatic spread and presymptomatic spread. and so you have to distinguish the two. asymptomatic spread is people who never develop symptoms. presymptomatic are people who aren't yet symptomatic but are capable of spreading it. the studies have shown that the time in which you are most contagious on average is .7 days before the develop symptoms. so people who are asymptomatic are also highly contagious. there is pretty good evidence that there is now asymptomatic spread. i think the statement by the w.h.o. is premature and they were basing it on contract tracing they were seen being done in china. i think it's going to take better data to nail down what the proportion of asymptomatic spread is. but we've seen cases of spread

in homeless shelters or spread on those aircraft carriers where there was a lot of asymptomatic spread to draw the communication that there certainly is a contribution from people who are asymptomatic never going on to spread this virus. that is what is so concerning and makes it so efficient in terms of its ability to spread in populations. >> it's good to have you on here this morning. after three months of stay-at-home orders, people who are naturally social beings are starting to go out again. sometimes responsibly, sometimes not responsibly, but they've said enough, it's summertime, we're going to go out and start experiencing life again. what would you say to people who feel that way, people who are going back out into the world and relaxing some of their personal restrictions they have on themselves. it did feel like once new york

calmed down a bit from those days of crisis, the epicenter of this crisis, that people maybe let their guard down a little bit and said the worst is behind us. what is your broad view of where we are on this? >> i think this is going to be a long haul. i don't think we're going to get covid-19 behind us until we have a vaccine. we're going to have to deal with one more cycle of this in the fall and the winter before we can get to mass inoculation of the population. that is in the best case scenario with respect to the technology. universal mask wearing is effective. people need to be conscious of their hygiene, their hand hygiene. i think people need to try to take fewer trips to the store, all the things you can do to limit social interactions while still going out and about and reengaging in more normal

activity. those things can reduce spread if they're practiced on a widespread basis. in many respects, i think we had to lift the mitigation steps. people were demanding it. i don't think we could have implemented it much longer. but many states, when we did this, most of the states that did it didn't meet the criteria that was laid out for when we would lift those mitigation steps. people say that the public health officials and the political officials made the decision to take those population wide mitigation steps. it was the people that dmavended it. the white house and political leaders didn't shut down the nba. the nba decided to shut down the nba when they saw it was happening. so the policy has followed what people are demanding based on their fears and desires in these instances. >> former fda commissioner dr. scott got lintleib, thank you s

much for coming on the show. coming up, we have more concerns that the protests could lead to a sharp spike on coronavirus cases. also ahead, the emotional testimony on capitol hill from the brother of george employed urging police reform. plus, president trump comes out against an effort to drop confederate names from military officials even after some military officials said they were open to the move. said they were open to the move.

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george wasn't hurting anyone that day. he didn't deserve to die over $20. i'm asking you, is that what a black man is worth? $20? this is 2020. enough is enough. the people marching in the streets are telling you enough is enough. george's name means something. you have the opportunity here today to make your names mean something, too. if his deaths ends up changing the world for the better, and i think it will, then he died as he lived. it is on you to make sure his

death is not in vain. >> incredible strength one day after laying his brother to rest. >> it's amazing. is that a black man is worth in 2020? $20. and if his death changes the world, then he will have died as he lived. and that plea at the very end, mika, so moving to ensure that george floyd did not die in vain. >> that was philonise floyd appearing before the house judiciary committee as congress debate tess way forward on police reform legislation. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, june 11th. along with joe, willie and me, we have former chairman of the republican national committee, pikal stee michael steele joining us. casey hunt, as well. we're going to get to that very emotional testimony in just a few minutes.

but first, there are a number of developments with the coronavirus. the u.s. crossed the 2 million cases mark nationwide. that is based on nbc news numbers. as infections in the u.s. appear to be spiking, many other countries are seeing a decline. according the a document obtained by yahoo! news dated june 9th from the centers for disease control and prevention, the u.s. had the highest spike of percentage change in daily cases with a 36.5% jump in recent days. that marks the biggest spike by a significant margin compared to the top ten countries in total cases. this compares to drops in cases in brazil, spain, russia, and india. nbc news has not obtained nor seen the document in question. meanwhile, in texas, health officials saw a third straight day of record breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. in arizona, the number of

coronavirus cases has spiked just three weeks after the governor lifted his stay-at-home order. the rapid increase there has lawmakers and medical professionals warning there might not be enough emergency room beds to handle what could be a big influx of new cases. >> you know, willie, and, again, we have to look back to march to remember how these spikes occurred. it's not like you have memorial day and a week later there's a spike. usually there's a two, two and a half week delay. so we have no idea what these hundreds of thousands of people in the streets will end up doing. so this information is independent of what people have been seeing in the streets. >> and troubling, yeah. >> over the past several weeks. >> as you say, this doesn't even factor in the righteous protests

we've seen in the past couple of weeks. this is about reopening businesses so now we're seeing another spike in cases just like people like dr. fauci and dr. birx predicted. a senior administration official is now telling nbc news that during a meeting yesterday, members of the white house coronavirus task force expressed concern about a spike in cases across the country in the next two weeks because of the protests following the death of george floyd. the official says members of the task force reviewed the current data and feel numbers as a result of memorial day are not significantly alarming, but find the projections for cases in the next ten to 14 days to be concerning. on a conference call monday, vice president mike pence and coronavirus response coordinator dr. deborah birx expressed concern about a spike in

coronavirus cases two weeks from now. that is according to a person familiar with the call. vice president pence and dr. birx specifically said they are worried that several coronavirus testing sites in some states were destroyed as the number of cases were taken down as the number of cases decreased in recent weeks. so, joe, this is -- it's been a month or so since we've had these daily coronavirus briefings, obviously. the news has shifted in the last couple of weeks. but coronavirus is very much here. there's a reason that he said it is his worst nightmare and that we are just at the beginning of understanding coronavirus. >> how short side would it be to take down any testing sites about you have health care professionals, when you have the smartest minds in epidemiology saying that we're at the beginning of this crisis. we're not at the end. you know, we had dr. osterholm a

month ago on here saying you people have to get real. we're in the second inning of a nine-inning game. and the question is how do we learn to live with this? we're going to have to learn how to live with it, how to have our economies open. and he had talked about -- it's very interesting and i don't know how many people that are watching remember what dr. osterholm said. but he said the first thing possibly we do is send younger people back into the workforce because they're obviously more resistant. well, most of the people that we have seen in the streets have been younger people. we can only hope that because it was outside, because there was ventilation, because there were a lot of masks worn, that it won't be disastrous. but let me tell you something. it doesn't matter what the cause is. and you're right, this is a righteous cause. it doesn't matter how righteous

the cause. scenes like that and in the middle of a pandemic should make any health care official extraordinarily, extraordinarily concerned because, again, even if -- >> you see, there are some -- it's really, i'm finding that hopeful when you get some scenes across the country, there are definitely -- especially where there was unrest, people were crushed together. and -- but then, you know, as this has played out, you can see an effort to try and put some space between people, which is very hopeful. but that's -- that's just too much. we know this. >> and by the way, as far as, again, we're talking health care concerns and it -- and, willie, it's so important. >> it's really tough. >> so important that it is black americans who were

disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus. and there is obviously the concern among health care officials that it may not be the people that are protesting that are going to have the problem so much as the families that they go home to where -- because the one thing we are learning from the coronavirus is this doesn't spread as quickly outside. in fact, when it's warmer, when you're outside, at least what we know for now, and the w.h.o. may say something wacky this afternoon that they have to take back the next day, but at least what we know for now is it usually, from what we've seen so far, it explodes in clusters inside, in families, and can find spaces. so let us just hope that people who are protesting when they go home, they take extra care to be

careful around their parents and their grandparents and their loved ones who have underlying health problems. >> yeah. when you look at those pictures for two weeks, it is inevitable that some of those protests will yield new cases of coronavirus. and michael steele, obviously, that was a risk that hundreds of thousands of americans were willing to take for that cause, but there is going to be more disease spread. there just is. you can look at the pictures right now. the problem, as well, is that you have a white house and a president of the united states, michael, that has turned the page. the president announced he's going to have his rallies resume next week, just like they always were in a packed arena in tulsa, oklahoma, a week from tomorrow. we haven't had a briefing from the task force in a month or so. he has tried, the president, to send signals on this. he said there are just a few embers left on this. the data, though, and especially the new data that we're seeing just in the last day or so does not support the idea that

coronavirus is no longer with us. in fact, it may be spiking again in places where they hadn't seen it. it may be lower in new york city and los angeles and the major cities where it developed. but the rest of the country is seeing it now. >> well, the fatal flaw to your logic is your reliance on data. why would you do that? i mean, that's -- you know, the president has moved on. we should all just move on. he intends to have rallies again. he's going to pack thousands of people into arenas and they will show up and they will pack themselves in. and this is the precursor to his intentions to host the national convention where he, once again, 50,000 plus people in space. so we are left yet again to decide for ourselves absent the guidance and reflection of the administration what the is in our own best health interests.

and clearly, to the point that three of you have already made about this moment where people felt compelled to go on to the streets of america to protest their concerns about police violence within the african-american community and george floyd, there were those who try to practice social distancing and to wear masks, etcetera, but a significant number of americans did not. and so now we're going to have to bear that additional consequence, again, absent the leadership that would give us the kind of guidance that we could rely on to continue to protect our health. so what will people be saying in about three to four weeks as we see these spikes continue to occur around the country remains to be seen. so we, again, are left to decide for ourselves what is in our best health interest absent the appropriate guidance and leadership from the administration on this point. coming up, our next guest

says america is losing the stomach to fight covid-19. ed loose joins us with his new column. straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe." i have moderate to severe pnow, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin ♪ yeah that's all me. ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin ♪ that's my new plan. ♪ nothing is everything. keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. of those, nearly 9 out of 10 sustained it through 1 year. and skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. ♪ i see nothing in a different way ♪ ♪ and it's my moment so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

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yesterday, george floyd's brother, philonis, appeared before the house judiciary committee and he said he's only seeking one thing from congress, justice for his brother. >> he was mild mannered. he didn't fight back. he listened to all the officers. the man who took his life, who suffocated him for eight minutes and 46 seconds, he still called him sir as he begged for his life. i can't tell you the kind of pain you feel when you watch something like that.

when you watch your big brother, who you looked up to your whole entire life die, die begging for his mom, i'm tired. i'm tired of pain. pain you feel when you watch something like that. i'm here to ask you to make it stop. stop the pain. stop us from being tired. george called for help and he was ignored. please listen to the call i'm making to you now. >> the rest of my life, that's all i ever see. somebody looking at the video, kids, i had to watch the video. his kids have to watch the video. it just hurts. there's a lot of people with a lot of pain, my family, they

just cry and cry every day and just ask why, why? he pleaded for his life. he said he couldn't breathe. nobody cared, nobody. people pleaded for him. they still didn't care. justice has to be served. those officers, they have to be convicted. anybody with a heart, they know that's wrong. you don't do that to a human being. you don't even do that to an animal. his life mattered. all our lives matter. black lives matter.

i just wish -- i wish i could get him back. >> kasey, that was some of the most breath taking testimony i've ever seen on capitol hill in that how judiciary committee meeting room was brought to a stand still. mr. floyd brought policy pitches, but he also brought humanity. my brother, george floyd, asked for help and he was ignored by those four police officers who stood there and let him die. i'm now coming to you to ask for help. so the question is, will he get it? will there be reforms made so there are not more george floyds in this country? what happened now to the proposal from house democrats? they work down with senate democrats, will there be any movement among republican senators who, of course, control that body? >> and that plea, willie, to make it stop really, i think, certainly struck me and he was

pleading with the lawmakers that he was sitting in front of to do that. and, you know, it's impossible to look away from that. and i think what we've seen every the course of the last week is that that is true. it is impossible to look away. it is impossible to pretend that something doesn't need to change for members of both parties, democrats and republicans. but it doesn't seem right now that republicans are putting together a proposal that makes -- goes far enough, makes enough changes to these laws to actually make a difference in the eyes of democrats. and so, you know, i'm currently struggling to see how they're going to come together here. there are a couple key parts to these proposals. and i would highlight particularly in the democratic bill, they want to ban choke holds. they want to banl no-knock

warrants. they want to make it easier to prosecutor police officers who are in these situations. right now, they benefit from what is called qualified immunity so it can be really hard to prosecute a cop in this kind of a situation. the republican proposal from what we can tell doesn't actually do anything of those things, except perhaps create a database, some version of that. it doesn't seem as though qualified immunity is something the president has drawn a red line and said no, he's not going to do that. and tim scott, the senator from south carolina said he doesn't think any of those proposals can get across the finish line. so while i think it's obvious and it says something that the politics of this are such that republicans feel they must be seen doing something and even the president believes that, it's not clear to me that what they're doing is enough to get democrats so is yes, we'll sign

on for this. the politics of this may be something that we can't come together and make something change. there have been a lot of examples. we've talked about examples on this show where we thought things would change and ultimately it doesn't because congress is gridlocked. we're going to have to see. coming up, one of our next guests says he fought to plagues and only beat one. the head of a major hospital who is battling coronavirus and racism. that conversation, just ahead on "morning joe." cism that conversation, just ahead on "morning joe."

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joivenining us now, infecti diseases physician from the boston university school of medicine, dr. nahid bedelia. she's an nbc news and msnbc medical contributor. also with us, u.s. national editor at the financial times, ed looks. his new column is entitled "america is losing the stomach to fight covid-19." wow. >> ed loose, tell us about america losing that stomach. >> well, the metaphor that the president endorsed and others embraced at the beginning of this fight was of a war on the virus. and the president called himself a wartime president. but the relaxation that is

happening now and places with quite sharply rising rates of hospitalization, like texas and arizona, the carolinas, patchwork across america is, i think, if you use the war metaphor more like george washington going on vacation after crossing the delaware. this isn't being prosecuted like a war. i think the images of these teaming casinos in las vegas where the participants are not wearing masks is a better metaphor for how states are approaching this virus, which is kind of hoping for the jackpot, hoping it's going to go away at a time when a thousand americans are still dieing every day. and if you listen to the scientists, of course, dr. fauci is no longer, not since april, been appearing on the podium with the president and the coronavirus task force is being wound down.

but if you listen to the scientists, they say this is -- it's like inviting a second coronavirus peak. all the wrong signals are being sent from the center and by many of the states. and so we're probably going to get what we don't want, which is another wave in the fall. >> or sooner. >> dr. bedelia, the country has been focused on these protests and racial justice in this country for the past few weeks, but just in the last couple of days, you've heard dr. fauci and dr. birx both raise their hands again after being quiet for a couple of weeks and say, hey, we're still here. even though we have the cases down and the hospitalizations down in new york, which is the epicenter and drew so much of the focus rightly so, this crisis is still with us. and it's in new places that we haven't been focused on before. so from your vice president, where are we in this pandemic in

the united states? >> well, thanks again for having me. i agree with everything ed said. the only thing i will say is i don't think we've left the first wave. and most of the places that we're looking at now, this is the first wave. 21 states are seeing steady increases in their cases. 12 cases are seeing steading increases in hospitalization. arizona is at 83% of their icu capacity. what happens when there are no more beds? arizona is treating this still as not the fight that it is. they have about 60 contact tracers. that's less than 1%, the capacity to trait everybody, all the new infections that are happening in the first 48 hours to stop those chains of transmission. they don't have the capacity to do that. they're 12.5 yesterday. so i agree, i think -- and it doesn't -- to me, it tells me that we can't have it both ways. we can't have an open society and not do the hard work at the

public health level, at the government level, and at the individual level to make sure that we prevent those new infections. right now, that's not the tenor that has been set and it's going lead to more deaths and more infections. >> ed loose, thank you very, very much. we'll be reading your new column in the financial times. dr. nahid bedelia, thank you, as well. coming up on "morning joe," one of the conservatives behind the president's least favorite ad machine from the lincoln project former republican strategist steve schmidt joins the saig conversation next on "morning joe." midt joins the saig conversation next on "morning joe." conversation next "morning joe." conversation nextn "morning joe." (music)

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in an unprecedented crisis... a more than $10 billion cut to public education couldn't be worse for our schools and kids.

laying off 57,000 educators, making class sizes bigger? c'mon. schools must reopen safely with resources for protective equipment, sanitizing classrooms, and ensuring social distancing. tell lawmakers and governor newsom don't cut our students' future. pass a state budget that protects our public schools. breaking economic news, the labor department just released its weekly report on jobless claims. we're told another 1.5 million americans filed for unemployment benefits last week. that is in line with expectations and it brings the 12-week total since the early days of this pandemic to more than 44 million americans filing for unemployment. this marks the 10th straight decline in the number of weekly

claims since the peak. my gosh, 44 million americans have find for unemployment in the last 12 weeks alone. >> 44 million americans, well over 10% unemployment. wall street still, despite the spain on main street, wall street still exploding. and, willie, i think what policymakers are going to have to be dealing with for quite some time, even beyond this constrained period between now and the election when all of these numbers take on such political significant is the fact that a lot of companies are not going to be hiring back after this pandemic the way they are hiring before the pandemic. americans, certainly working class americans, black, white, hispanic, asian americans have felt the impact of

globalization, have felt the impact of job going overseas or jobs just going away. now with this pandemic, there is going to be a new reality that policymakers are going to have to be dealing with and an understanding that when the pandemic is over, when people go back to work, it's not going to be the same. they're going to be more people who are unemployed and that is goc to be a challenge that we're all going to have to address. by the way, this morning, we've been talking for good reasons about the mars for black lives matter, for civil rights, we've been talking about health care disparities between black americans and white and hispanic americans and asian americans. and when you talk about these unemployment numbers, it is staggering to me, willie, after progress that had been made over the past decades, staggering to me that over half of adult black

americans are out of work right now. that is such a crisis. not just for black america, that's a cray sis for all of america. >> yeah. black and brown americans hit uniquely by coronavirus and, again, by unemployment here. those numbers are staggering, at large, but staggering for the black community. we heard from the fed yesterday. the fed said expect unemployment hovering around 9%, 10% through the end of the year. so as much as president trump would like to declare that we've turned a corner on this, obviously, again this morning, 1.5 million americans filing for unemployment in the last week. joining us now is dr. phillip oswa, president and ceo of nontefeur medicine.

doctor oswa has an op-ed entitled i fought two plagues and only beat one in which he writes this. as the head of a major hospital, i fought the coronavirus. as a black man, i fight racism. as the pandemic has subsided and our covid-19 case load has dropped to 143 patientes from a peak of 2,208 on april 12th, the nation is coming to grips with another fearful crisis. the lethal effects of racism, the pain of all are too familiar to me. it's hard to find comfortable in this troubling time, but i see rare hope that these twin disasters hurting minorities, one a brand new virus and the other a virus as old as the country itself could finally prove the true strength of our shared humanity. doctor, the last time you were

here, we are talking about your hospital's fight against coronavirus. but you clearly and directly address what has been going on in this country for the last two weeks and you use the word hope i note in your op-ed. what is it you've seen in this country for the last two weeks that has given thaw hope? >> thank you very much, willie, and thanks for having me back on the show. what i've seen in the last two weeks is something that i believe is unprecedented. in american history. protests going on now for 15 straight days. hundreds of thousands of americans. and what i see is a coming together to demand and to fight for the very idea and the very ideal of america. which is freedom and justice for all.

and i see an unrelenting demand for those ideals and that idea. >> aaron, you know, i get to congress in 1995, have been t air since 2003. and it seems like every time a racist crisis comes up, people talk about wanting to have a real conversation about race. over time, i've learned to take those claims skeptically because it seems that we never have that real conversation. i'm wondering if you're finding in 2020 because of the gravity of the situation we find ourselves in, because of the number of protesters that have gone out into the streets and because there is more buyin from white america, from hispanic american, i'm wondering are we starting to have that conversation right now and do you believe that we will

actually make progress as a nation and move forward in a way that we didn't move forward in the past after charles, after trayvon, after eric gardner? >> you know, joe, i think we would a lot of conversations about race in this country. and i think a lot of americans, especially black americans, are tired of talking and are ready for action. and what the doctor hits on in this powerful op-ed is something i've hit on quite a bit. which is the pandemic within the pandemic. the racism that has ravaged the black community. black americans were also facing with the coronavirus pandemic, the 1-3 punch and now to be confronted with inequality on

full display across our society really has just been a bridge too far for some folks. you see the cases of breonna taylor, the emt who was literally trying to save lives in the coronavirus pandemic only to be gunned down in her apartment by police serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong home. as we know, george floyd beat coronavirus in april only to die under the knee of a minneapolis police officer's neck. and so, you know, i think the question that the doctor raises in his op-ed and what ooefb asking, what if we approach systemic racism, what are the symptoms, is there a cure, how do we get it to people? how much does it cost and what is the federal government's responsibility to address this pandemic. i think we've seen the country's imagination around the

coronavirus and i think what we like to say a lot in talking about the coronavirus is that we're all in this together. but i think it remains to be seen if that is going on be the case around systemic racism. but as the country reopens and we imagine what the country is going to be like, i think we have to question what the new normal is going to be around race relations in this country. >> doctor, response to that if you will. >> i agree, joe. i think that the coronavirus is novemb novel and threatens us as individuals. there is nothing novel about racism. what we did in four months with coronavirus was put a whole lot of intellectual firepower and resources behind understanding it. we got to know who was affected by it. we understood na there was a

spectrum. some people had it and showed no stops. some showed mild symptoms. and some shows severe storms. well, it might be the same with racism. some have it and it doesn't show. until certain circumstances emerge. but i think if we apply the same selfless courage and determination that we apply to understanding coronavirus, and we marshall that same courage and conviction to understanding endemic racism, i believe that there is hope that we can finally rid ourselves of that virus, as well. >> doctor, you write in your op-ed that your hospital in new york city has hopefully seen the worst of coronavirus from those crisis days of march and april where all the beds were full, there was no ppe, not enough ppe

for your doctors and nurses. but we're seeing today more reporting of it popping up in other places of the country, texas, arizona, other place that's didn't have the focus in those early days. as you look, as a physician, as someone who is an expert on public health, what are your areas of concern as we move into this long summer? >> right. i think in a -- certainly when i look at the mass gatherings, and the protests, as a public health official, that concerns me. i wish all were wearing face coverings on both protesters and law nrchls. so that worries me. about a surge and transmission of infection. on the other hand, you

understand why people are on the streets. and i think there's a long history of americans putting themselves in harm's way to fight for and protect the ideals and the principals of america. so i understand the assumption of risk on the part of the protesters to fight for a change that they believe is a worthy cause. but i do worry about resurgence of covid-19 which as was said earlier, disproportionately affects under served communities and giving the representation among the protesters that are the conflation of those multiples dimensions worries me. >> president and ceo of

montefeur medicine, dr. osmoth, thank you again for your time this morning. we appreciate it. coming up next on "morning joe," voters have a choice this november and the lincoln project says it is between trump and america. steve schmidt joins us with the group's latest ad, next on "morning joe." on p's latest ad, ne "morning joe." introducing new voltaren arthritis pain gel, the first and only full prescription strength non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel available over-the-counter. new voltaren is powerful arthritis pain relief in a gel. voltaren. the joy of movement. stand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. arthritis pain relief in a gel. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill... ...can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some-rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue.

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safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! safe drivers do save 40%. click or call for a quote today. tt brft. bragg is noenl for heros for the men and women who train there and it's a shame to tell them that what they left was inherently a racist institution because of a name. that's unacceptable to the president. and rightfully so. and i would also note where do you draw the line here?

i'm told no longer can you find on hbo "gone with the wind" because somehow that is now offensive? where did you draw the line? should george washington and thomas jefferson and james madison be history? >> that's white house press secretary kayleigh mcenany explaining president trump's opposition to calls from some to rename military bases named for confederate generals. it's a position that runs counter to some top military leaders, including the secretary of defense and the secretary of the army who both said they are open to a bipartisan discussion of renaming those bases. also former u.s. army general and cia director david petraeus wrote in a new op-ed for "the atlantic," it's time to remove the names of traitors like bening and bragg from our country's most important military installations. the lincoln project, a group of conservatives critical of president trump took on this issue in a new ad.

>> the men who followed this flag 150 years ago knew what it meant. treason against their country. the death of the united states. america defeated the men who followed that flag. those with honor, surrender and cast it aside forever. so why does it keep showing up today at events supporting donald trump? and why does he call the folks who carry it very fine people. >> i think there's blame on both sides, but you also had people that were very fine people. >> what does it say that they're all in for trump? what does it say that he won't condemn the flag of hate, division and losers? for us, it says this is a time for choosing. america or trump. >> joining us now, one of the

strategist behind the lincoln project, steve schmidt and "usa today" opinion columnist and former senior adviser for the house oversight and government reform committee, kurt bardella. he's a "morning joe" contributor. steve, i want to begin with you. nascar announced yesterday that the confederate flag is no longer welcome at its events. it wants to send a message of inclusivity. also we saw just last night a statue along memorial avenue in richmond, virginia, of jefferson davis, the president of the confederacy, toppled. this came after last week the governor, ralph northam announced the statue on that same boulevard of robert e. lee will be taken down. there is a movement away from the confederacy at long last in the eyes of many americans. but president trump seems to be one of the few holdouts. >> indeed he does, willie. and we have a fundamental choice in november. it is america or trump. when we look at the divisions

and trump's incitement of those divisions, over these last months, in order for us to move forward as a more just society, it's finally time for this country to put down that flag of treason, and that's exactly what it was. it was a flag for a slave nation and autocracy on north american shores that was thankfully defeated at great cost. more than 620,000 american lives lost. and that flag has become a painful symbol of racism, of division for so many in this country. and it has no place in american life. it's a racist symbol. and the president in doing his first public rally on june 19th, juneteenth and doing it in tulsa, oklahoma, is deliberate. it's purposeful. it's provocative. tulsa is one of the worst race

massacres in american history and june 19th, of course, is the day when word finally reached texas and that part of the country that slavery had been abolished. and so just terrible to see trump do that with his rally coming up in a few weeks. >> so, steve, let's talk about the history, not only of the confederate flag but also the history of confederate generals like robert e. lee. and i can tell you, you know, as you know, i was born in georgia, moved to mississippi, lived in northwest florida. lived in upstate for a little bit. but i grew up. the confederate flag was everywhere. in mississippi, at ole miss games they'd be waving the confederate flag. that eventually -- they eventually got rid of that. alabama, people had confederate flags up in the '80s. white people, including myself,

didn't think much of it. robert e. lee was revered, if you look at ken burns' series on the civil war you can see a lot of preeminent historians revering robert e. lee. west point, you always heard roberttactics were used. i was talking to stanley crystal. he said, of course, you know, looking back, that was a mistake. and talk about over time as you have seen it, the growing awareness, far too late, even for people like me, but the growing awareness of exactly what that flag symbolizes to black americans. and i think we need to acknowledge it's taken, i'd say, people like me. it's taken people across the south, white people across the south who thought of themselves

as being progressive. it's taken us far too long to look upon people like robert e. lee and look upon the symbol of the confederate flag the way that we have looked upon it over the past 10, 15 years. >> well, a couple of things, joe. good morning. in germany where the swastika is banned, neo-nazis carry the confederate flag when they march. it's become a symbol of racism. now if you go back in american history to 1865 when the war won and you read lincoln's second inaugural, he had no higher ambition than to put the country back together. and putting the country back together came at a price. and that price was absolution by the north for the southern cause. the myth that it was somehow noble, that it wasn't about slavery, that the country didn't become like the balkans where we had generations fighting each

other in guerrilla war. and the reason for that literally began the day of the surrender when joshua lawrence chamberlain, the great hero of gettysburg, a major general in the army, wounded eight times was given the honor by grant of accepting the confederate surrender. and as the confederate army marched by, chamberlain called the army to attention, presented arms and played "dixie." and that move was celebrated throughout the country as a symbol of healing. but the problem was, with all of it, was the endemic racism that was part of the confederacy. and when we look at the lincoln assassination and then reconstruction in the racial terror that played out in the south during those decades after the civil war, we have to understand today that many of those confederate monuments were put up in the 1920s. they were political statement

after the first world war when blacks who fought valorously thought they'd come home to a country where they'd be more free. so we have indulged the myth of honor around the confederacy until today, until 2020. and now it's to recognize this for what it is, a symbol of slavery and racism that causes great pain to a lot of our fellow americans. >> and you know, kurt, i didn't know until the controversies really started cropping up in a dramatic way that also that confederate flag in many cases wasn't even used until the civil rights era started to really -- civil rights leaders started to assert themselves in the late 1950s and the early 1960s that people started adopting that more. again, just like donald trump, as symbolism against civil rights. >> --

>> we lost audio from kurt. we'll try and get back to him. erin, let's talk about that and how the confederate flag was used, really, as a symbolic resistance to civil rights advances for black americans in the late '50s and 1960s and also how donald trump is once again using it symbolically to provoke a culture war. >> absolutely. and i think that's exactly the point, joe. we've seen, and several of us covering this president and this administration assume that the president would be returning to a racial playbook headed into the 2020 election. but now, the difference is that he is doing that amid a national reckoning on race at the center of which is an indictment of institutional racism which means that no institutions are immune. and that includes, you know, these confederate statues which

in recent years, charlottesville, the charleston massacre, you know, we've talked about what to do with these confederate statues. but the time for talk is over for a lot of people. you're seeing people taking these statues down and symbols down across the country, even as the president is kind of continuing to embrace maintaining these confederate statues. this president has openly questioned the cause of the civil war, right? slavery may not have even been the reason. and so i think that that is a message as is pointed out in the ad that may be at odds with an america that's coming to the realization that this is not who we are, but is this who we want to be? that is the question that so many people are having going into this fall. >> errin hayes, thanks for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. steve schmidt, kurt baldella, we'll have you tomorrow. we'll make sure the s