he ran away. he was -- his effort here was to run away from the police. he then got away from the police, and they toipcontinued chase him at which point you'll see video that changes to the surveillance video from the wendy's right about here, and he turns the taser on police at some distance. they then fire on him. he goes to the ground. he is subsequently declared dead in the hospital. so the questions are now why deadly force was used on him in the first place when the initial call was for a man asleep-in his car. in the immediate aftermath of this the police chief of atlanta has resigned, a 20-year plus veteran of the atlanta police department. erica shields has resigned. she was thought of as many of being a reform minded chief trying to fix what had been long-standing problems between the police and members of the community in that city. she has resigned, and we are

continuing to get more information tonight on the street. blayne alexander, this is statement, by the way, from chief erica shields who says for more than two decades i served along side some of the finest men and women in the atlanta police department. out of a deep and abiding love for this city and this department i offered to step aside as police chief. apd, atlanta police department has my full support, and mayor bottoms has my support on the future direction of this department. i have faith in the mayor, and it is time for the city to move forward and build trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve. that is the message from the chief. the mayor came out making a statement that while it remains to be seen whether the use of force in this case was appropriate she doesn't believe that it should have been used. in other words, she says there's a difference between what police can do and what police should do. i do believe we've got blayne

alexander on the ground enatlanta, but i'm just going to check on that whether we do or not. blayne, are you there with me? blayne alexander, okay we're going to try to find blayne in that crowd somewhere. blayne is that you? >> yes, that is me. can you hear me, ali? i'm right here. >> yes, thank you, blayne. please let us know what the latest is. i brought the audience up to speed on the resignation of the police officer and the protests that are under way in the area right now. what has happened with the police officers? >> reporter: sure, so i guess the latest we can report right now just confirmed with an atlanta police spokesperson that the officer who fired the shot has been terminated, has been fired from his position. so that's certainly something that's come down new this evening just in the last few minutes or so.

you heard atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms said she did not believe this was a justified use of force and she called for that officer to be fired. we can now confirm that officer has been fired. this of course comes after atlanta police chief erika shields stepped down, resigned from his position and said she believes this is the first step of an important step to make sure the city starts healing. really what we're seeing in all of this is a stunning movement of developments just over the past 24 hours or so. you know it was less than 24 hours from when that shooting happened to when the police chief resigned. we know that the gbi, the state investigative body has come in and take v over that case there. they're investigating. they've released surveillance video, and just within literally five minutes before i got on the phone with you i got an e-mail with a link to body camera video and dash cam video released by the atlanta police department. haven't even gotten a chance to look through that. so this kind of tells you as the mayor says in her news

conference they're really trying to put out information as quickly as they can because the result that you see of the frustration is what you're seeing on the air and what you're seeing on the streets. is the wendy's being set on fire. its protesters by the hundreds taking to the busiest highway, one of the busiest highways in atlanta blocking traffic for the better part of an hour this evening. so you can kind of see this very fast movement on behalf of the city to try and put out information, try and be as transparent as possible in hopes of putting out as much information as they can. >> i'm looking at where wave got pictures now of that wendy's it is on fire. it's fully engulfed scene there, and there are protesters in the neighborhood. we also saw the entrance to the highway that protesters had been gathered at and a line of police -- in fact, here's a high aerial you can see at the bottom of left of your screen that's the wendy's on fire.

there are heavily armed police on the scene, blayne. do we know what the interaction has been between the police and the crowd this evening? >> reporter: we do not. i do know there have been several canisters of tear gas that have been deployed at several points throughout the evening. i also know there have been a number of arrests, several dozen of arrests. haven't gotten the final number quite yet. certainly we do know that people have been taken into custody. you know, the difference is, you know, obviously atlanta along with much of the country is just coming off very strong string of protests that we saw night after night after night leading up to last week. during that time with the exception of the first night when we saw all of that -- all of the destruction kind of take place, during that time georgia was under a state of emergency. atlanta was under a state of emergency. so you had national guards, backups, other people kind of coming in from different

jurisdictions to help. at this point you're seeing a much less law enforcement presence and certainly no national guard presence, so it's certainly a different kind of tone than what we see at the other protests days before this. >> and of course this is video from earlier on when that fire was burning at the rate that it was. it is largely put out at this time. we'll bring you video of that a little closer. but this is just to give you a sense of the proximity of that fire to the highway where you see a very heavy police presence. and i ask you that, blayne, because the police presence that we're seeing is much bigger than it was earlier this evening. and they do seem to be supported by heavy machinery. the sort that sort of raises questions amongst americans as to why police have that kind of stuff. so i'm trying to figure out whether the equipment that the police have is theirs or whether theirs national guard involved. do have a sense whether national

guard is involved here, or had they been otherwise activated for earlier this week and may still be there as a result? >> reporter: not to our knowledge. we do know the governor's tweeted and basically said they stand to rightly support anybody who's peacefully protesting, but what i'll say is as of right now the state of emergency has not been declared. that's not to say there's not a national guard presence, but in terms of a state of emergency pertaining to this particular incident, that has not been activated yet, ali. >> all right, we are looking at these i believe are live pictures we're looking at. and this is a crowd that's gathered. you can see that police vehicle in front of them or a police vehicle of sorts in front of them. that would be the entrance to the highway. so the effort here seems to be to ensure that this crowd doesn't end up getting onto the highway and blocking traffic there. for the moment this seems to be a peaceful crowd who are

demonstrating. it seems to be a bit impromptu because they're sort of looking in different directions. protesters seem to be taking images of or leaning up against a line of police who are there to prevent them it seems from getting up on the -- onto the highway. what we don't have -- we have the mayor -- in fact, let's listen to the mayor. mayor keisha lance bottoms speaking earlier about this when we first had news of it. >> chief erika shields has been a solid member of apd for over two decades and has a deep and abiding love for the people of atlanta. and because of her desire that atlanta be a model of what meaningful reform should look like across this country chief

shields has offered to immediately step aside as police chief so that the city may move forward with urgency in rebuilding the trust so desperately needed throughout our communities. >> and just to reiterate what blayne was reporting, the officer who fired the deadly shot that killed rayshard brooks has been fired. we do not know what the situation is involving the second officer on the scene, and we're yet to sort of understand from that video because it's fast moving and we've got two angles of the video. we believe there's more video now available including body cam and dash cam video from police. but the two pieces of video we have is the one shot by the bystander and that's this video you're looking at here and video released from wendy's surveillance video which actually showed the shooting of rayshard brooks. this is the wendy's video.

you can see he's running away, turns the taser towards police, and we've stopped the video right at the point at which he was shot. he then hits the ground, and there's a lot of controversy over what happened right after that because according to the lawyers for brooks' family it was over two minutes, 2 minutes and 16 seconds before they took his pulse. and the allegation is that in that time they put on gloves and collected shell casings from the scene. now, it would be highly unorthodox in a shooting with police on the scene if this is true. again, this is just what the lawyer from rayshard brooks' fapalfa family to have said. but the implication was rather than render him aid they looked for their shell casings and picked it up while they called for help. it was 2 minutes and 16 seconds

before they checked his pulse according to the lawyers. rayshard brooks leaves behind three children and a stepchild, a 13-year-old stepson and three daughters aged 8, 2 and 1. it was one of his children's birthday today on friday, and he was apparently -- he had been celebrating that. it's unclear why he was asleep-in the line at the wendy's but it is important to understand that the call was not for a violent call or not for any threat whatsoever. it was for a man who was asleep in the drive-thru lane at wendy's. and that was the call to which police responded. it should have been routine. it should have been the kind of thing they were able to handle without force. and one of the important points that was made by the attorney for rayshard brooks' family is that whenever they take police to court and make the argument

that their client was harmed because of the use of a taser the argument made by police and by the district attorney is that the taser is nonlethal, it is not a lethal weapon. so keep in mind that rayshard brooks did not have a weapon apparently when he was stopped, when he was found sleeping in his car. he then took that weapon, the taser and ran away. he didn't take the taser and try to tase the police. he turned around, aimed the taser in their direction. now, police would know over a certain distance you can't tase someone. so if they weren't chasing him at that point there would be no danger from being tased, but tazers typically with certain exceptions with the condition of the underlying person being tased, tasers are typically nonlethal, so the whole argument here is was there a justified use of lethal force? and it does seem in the firing of the police officer involved

the determination at least initially has been that wasn't the right thing to do. so that's the story as we have it right now. i want to ask my control room to give us the most recent pictures so that we can see what the situation is on the ground there right now. i believe these are still earlier pictures because we're looking at a fully burning fire at the wendy's which is a situation from earlier, but if we can take a look what's going on right now. this seem tuesday be a situation on the ground right now. i just want to confirm that with my control room. all right, this is the situation right now. we've got some people talking to a camera that's there, probably expressing their frustrations. and you do see behind, i'm just trying to make out behind that crowd that's a police line-backed up by police vehicles. again, we're not entirely sure. we can't see the insignia right now whether those are atlanta police department, georgia state patrol or national guard vehicles. they are fortified vehicles. they're hardened vehicles, the

kind of thing you bring in when you require crowd control, and that seems to be what is -- what the situation is. but this looks like a peaceful protest. people have signs on them. they are frustrated. they are venting their frustrations to the cameras that are on the scene. blayne alexander has been covering this for us from atlanta and has the latest on what's going on. blayne, the latest development at the moment, we know that the police chief has resigned from the police force. and now we understand the officer who fired the deadly shot has been fired as well. >> reporter: that officer has been fired, and then the second officer, ali, that was on the scene that night is remaining on administrative duty. so that's essentially what's happening. one officer fired and one officer on administrative duty, but all of this happening very quickly after this shooting itself happened. now, as for the moment and the kind of scene around atlanta

right now we know that after burning for quite some time that fire has been put out. it does appear that things are certainly more peaceful, calmer out there now. but what's interesting about all of this, ali, is how quickly the mayor came out and spoke and said she was demanding that basically this officer be fired. we're going through and looking at this dash cam video now, this body camera video. what's remarkable about this there are a number of different camera angles that we ourselves have been looking at to say nothing of the other angles that may be out there. there's body camera video, dash cam video from the officers on the scene. on top of that there's eyewitness video that was also taken that kind of shows this struggle between brooks and the two officers during which you kind of see him appear to grab the taser, but a struggle of quite some time there on the ground. and then the fourth angle video

you see is the surveillance video, the wendy surveillance taken kind of from an up above vantage point where you see brooks running, you see the officers chasing and he appears to look over his shoulder and appears to aim the taser, and then the officer responds with gunfire. it's really remarkable in this case, ali, there are four different angles at least of video to kind of evaluate kind of exactly what happened in all of this friday night. >> and the police were quite quick to release that wendy's video because i think they think it -- it's the moment at which you see rayshard aim the taser at the police officer, which i think they thought was exculpatory or at least sort of gives them a stronger position in the case. but so many people have argued that police know, first of all, that these things are not lethal in a certain range, so if you're thought running towards somebody

who's running away from you with a taser you're not in any lethal danger. you're probably not in lethal danger if you're within 25 feet of him, so that's part of the problem. and the other issue is that he was running away. those two things seem to be key in this issue. so police did release this video very quickly to try and get us to understand this. now, blayne, we have not seen either the dash cam video or the body cam video, is that right? we know we've got it. we know it existsb but that's not been released yet? >> it exists and it's in our possession. we have right now just within the past ten minutes or so. we're reviewing it right now. i know there are a couple of different angles. actually i'm looking at it right now. there are four different angles, two dash cam videos and two body camera videos because there were officers on the scene. so a total of four pieces of video each of them about 25 minutes long or so that we're scrubbing through right now. >> so you've got four additional

pieces of video to the two we've got here? >> reporter: correct, yes. as we're talking about six different angles you talked about the notion of a taser and, you know, responding to a taser with gunfire. that's a point that attorney chris stewart made in his news conference when he spoke about it this evening. he said in georgia a taser is not a deadly weapon, that's the law. he said essentially in the news conference you can't have it both ways. you say he ran off with a deadly weapon if it's not technically considered a deadly weapon, ali. >> yes, crist stewart making the case early on they're going to hear. he said he's been on the other side in court where he's argued four people hit by tasers and the prosecution makes a strong case it's not a deadly weapon. i want to go to jim kavanaugh, former special agent in charge of the atf. jim, you and i were on the phone together a few hours ago when we were trying to make sense of

this. it does seem if there's any good news about a terrible situation is there's a lot of video of it right now, and that video prior to being looked at my buswise looked by the georgia bureau of investigation or the fulton county da before it was being released which probably resulted in the officer who fired the shot being relieved of duty. but what do you make of the new information you've had in the last couple of hours? >> well, i watched this video many times and blayne's got some new video. i don't think it really does look like the facts are going to change. this video from wendy's clearly shows mr. brooks running, it shows what looks like the taser in his hand. he turns and fires at the officer. the officers looks like he also was carrying a taser, and then when he -- mr. brooks fires the taser at him, he throws that taser down. when the officer reaches the back of the red car, the officer throws his taser down and then draws his weapon and fires it at

mr. brooks. so there's no justification for the use of deadly force here. i mean, he's running away. even though he turns and fires the taser, you know, you're not alone. there's another officer 20 feet from you. you don't need to draw your gun and shoot him. he's not going to get anywhere far away. it's just not a deadly force justification. it's a bad shoot-in police terminology. this is bad shoot. now, his partner -- if his partner didn't fire his weapon then i don't see anything he did wrong in the video or any crime he committed or he could be charged with anything. he looks like an officer doing his duty, the second officer. and, you know, basically if they weren't shooting mr. brooks and he got away, you know, everything they did prior to that it did not look excessive to me. they had a pretty good fight with mr. brooks. mr. brooks threw some punches at them, he took their taser but they didn't use excessive force.

now, we don't know if the arrest was justified at the time. maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. could be an argument that's made. but i didn't see anything excessive. they appeared to me to be courageous. they were fighting a person they were trying to arrest. they weren't drawing their guns on him in the scuffle. why the officer did this when they ran he's probably going to say he turned and fired at me and i thought it was a gun. but i watched the video carefully when they were on the ground and it's pretty clear to me that both officers can see right there in the video mr. brooks is pulling the taser, he's grabbing the taser. and they're both looking at it, and, you know, having been in scuffles as officers you communicate with each other. you know, you're going to say he's grabbing my taser, he's going for my gun, or he's got my

baton. you're talking to each other. but i can't believe that the officer would not know that he got his taser. they're both looking at him fighting over the taser. he's running with the taser so, you know, i don't understand why he would draw his weapon and shoot mr. brooks. i think that is bad. you know, we talk so much about police training. one thing i want you to know and the audience to know, officers are not getting enough training around the country in shoot, don't shoot. we call it shoot don't shoot training, and that can be video training with simulated rounds. you're in a training room, the movie's in front of you, you have your weapon, you know, it happens and you have to draw your weapon and fire. the weapon records and makes a sound. you fire at a target, you're scored, your judgment is evaluated by the trainers. every officer has been through it. but officers are not going

through it enough, and the departments are not making whether they fail that shoot, don't shoot train, a decision whether they should be off the street, get remedial training before they get a score -- this training is available but it has to be put on much, much more for veteran officers. it can't just happen three years ago you wept to shoot, don't shoot training. your skills will drop, and this is judgment decision. and it's very, very effective training. and if an officer has no judgment in the training you'll see it pretty clearly. the trainers are good and say, you know, this officer has no judgment he failed the shoot, don't shoot scenario. we need to take him off patrol. we need to put him over here in the tow in lot for a couple of weeks or whatever they're going to do and he needs to go in and

train. that's one of the things in policing we need to revamp up. i know a lot of citizens and i hear what they're saying we've heard all these calls for training and it never worked. i hear that, i'm sympathetic to that. but i'm just pin pointing one thing that i see around the country. now, that doesn't help us in the case like mr. floyd in minneapolis, which is cold-blooded murder. >> no, but this is the stuff that police tell us about, right? the stuff that happens in the moment that got -- that's got everybody's adrenaline flowing, and at this point your muscle memory kicks in. right, this is the stuff where you have to have enough training so if the call is to de-escalate or do use less than lethal force only your training and muscle memory will help you in this instance because of the adrenaline that's flowing. these two officers, we're seeing video of them in a fight with mr. brooks so we know

everybody's juices are going at a high level right now. so the only thing that will save them from doing the wrong thing is the amount of training that will cause them to know do "x" not "y." >> right, that's the judge training and what we call in the police business shoot, don't shoot training. but it's the judgment training, and that training it's not shooting for accuracy like on the police range it's shooting for judgment. and that has to be ramped up all across the country more and more and more. we need to spend money on it. no matter what reforms we make for the police and i think we're going to make vast reforms in america, but that training has to be more, you know, frequent, more intense, more not letting you on the street. because we've seen so many bad cases. i mean look at tamir rice in ohio, a 12-year-old boy with a toy gun. and look at the killing of the man in dayton, ohio, at the wal-mart. that was so awful where he had a

bb gun and he's on the phone. some of these judgments are really, really terrible and they keep happening, and we're not addressing them in policing to stop them. and also we have to change the mind-set we talked about deescalation, but the mind-set also is stop acting like these people are going to get on a spaceship and go to mars and you're never going to be able to capture them. these guys live in the neighborhood. >> right. >> they're not large criminals. >> they had his car. he was in his car. >> right, you have his car. and i would just juxtapose this case because with a case we just had four days ago in indiana river county, florida -- i used to be a florida be a floridy ne, the difference between excellence and mastery is all the difference in the world. the lexus es. a product of mastery. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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. i'm ali velshi. this is msnbc and we have breaking news out of atlanta where we are covering the aftermath of the police killing of rayshard brooks, a 27-year-old man on friday night in the parking lot of a wendy's. now, this is the scene right now. there are protesters gathered around the area in which brooks was killed, and there's a heavy police presence around there.

the wendy's was set on fire and police have assembled at the entrance to a highway to ensure the protesters don't go onto the highway and block traffic. this was the scene earlier with that wepdyndy's fully engulfed fire. that fire has been put out. the developments are as follows. shortly after the shooting came out there was video taken by a bystander and subsequently the police released the surveillance video from the wendy's parking lot, two angles of the shooting. that did result in the officer who was seen shooting mr. brooks being relieved of duty. we believe he's been fired. the other officer is on administrative leave. there you see it, the officer closest to mr. brooks -- mr. brooks goes by the red car, the officer is there at the red car. that's the officer who shot at him. now, here's what happened. jim kavanaugh is still with me

and he has a good description of this. i'm going to give you my description of it and talk to jim what it means from a policing standpoint. so i'm going to need the video that was taken by the bystander. this is the wendy's video. let's refer to the bystander video first. that is where we first learn there's a scuffle between the police officers and mr. brooks. the phone call came in about a man who was asleep-in his car and tonight across america what a lot of people are wondering is how a man asleep-in his car posing no threat to anyone except blocking the wendy's drive-thru, that may feel like a serious threat to someone but not something someone loses their life over -- how that escalated into the man being dead while running away from cops. and i want to bring jim kavanaugh in to explain. while jim while we know him as a special agent in charge of the atf, jim was a patrol officer many years ago. and jim, to you a call for

someone in a car, someone where they're not supposed to be was a relatively common call for you. tell me how this probably went down. >> likely it went down that maybe mr. brooks was inebriated. and so if he was operating a motor vehicle when he was inebriated and they were talking with him, you know, at some point they might have decided to arrest him for, you know, driving while intoxicated. they couldn't ask him if he was inebriated to get in his car and drive away. the officers would not have been allowed to let an inebriated man drive away. what happened is he had fallen asleep-in the drive-thru and they were going arrest him for operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated. the motor vehicle does not have to be driving. if you're sitting in the drivers

seat and the engine is running that is sufficient for driving while intoxicated. so most likely that's what happened, they were going to arrest him for that. when they tried to arrest him he resisted. and first he appears he resists without violence, which is misdemeanor. in other words, it's when you won't let the officers handcuff you. it's kind of what you saw in mr. floyd's case when he was arrested in minneapolis at the original car. he's not resisting with violence. he's resisting without violence. he's not letting the officers hand cuff him. >> to be clear resisting without violence means you're not putting your hands behind the back the way they want you to put your hands behind your back, you're trying to not be restrained. >> yeah, you're argumentative, you're not complying. your arms are stiff. every time they handcuff you pull away. it's a misdemeanor. resisting with violence is what this grew into when they were on the ground because mr. brooks

does strike the officers. he throws hay makers at them. he clearly grabs their taser. there's a real struggle over their taser and it appears both officers know this is going on. he's pulling at the taser, and he jumps up, swings at them. he's resisting them with violence, that's a felony, but then he runs away. so when he runs away and you're in pursuit of him there's no reason for deadly force. what happens when they get to the rear of the car mr. brooks does turn and he fires the taser, but the officer that's immediately behind him that shoots him, you know, must know it is the taser that he took, and he -- the officer then drops his taser -- this is what the video appears to show -- drops his weapon, his side arm and shoots mr. brooks. so that cannot be a justified use of force. the other officer doesn't appear to fire his gun or that i can

see in the video i didn't see anything that was done wrong in the struggle. remember sometimes citizens see police arrests and they say there's excessive force, and it's not. in other words, what was on the ground of those two officers and mr. brooks was not excessive force. i mean, sometimes it looks awful but it is lawful. and the officers can use the amount of force necessary to make the arrest. they can punch you. it's not illegal or unlawful or excessive force for an officer to punch you if he's trying to get you to comply for an arrest. so force can be deployed. they can strike you with a baton in the leg. sometimes you have to, and it's worse when you're alone. it's even more difficult when the officer is alone. but here they had two officers. their actions were i think in line with everything up until he shot mr. brooks, and then it was clearly an unjustified use of force. >> the fact that we can see the

tasers is usually because the tasers are a different color. they're usually a bright color so you can see it being carried in mr. brooks' hand and you can see the officer has a taser in his hand as well. talk to me about the tasers. the lawyer chris stewart for the brooks family says when they're in court arguing a police used a taser on a victim the argument is always that the taser is not lethal. it's not lethal, certainly not even damaging over a certain area, a certain distance. so in this case when he's got a taser running the other way he poses no danger to the police. >> right, ali. and you said it so clearly. what's key here is the totality of the circumstances. let me make it even easier for all of us to understand. let's say it's not a taser. it's a police baton, a nightstick, a long wooden stick. okay, a long wooden stick is a

weapon that can kill you. if that weapon is whaled on your head it could kill you or cause serious bodily harm. if mr. brooks had taken the baton from the officer and was running away just he was with the taser there'd be no justification for an officer to shoot mr. brooks. that weapon is less lethal like a taser. we call those less lethal weapons, but they can be lethal. they can be abused. now, how could an officer, you know, shoot justifiably a man that took his baton? well, look if the officer was alone and they were fighting and the man took his baton and the man came at the officer and started whaling on him, the officer would be more than justified to shoot him. i mean, you don't have to be killed with a baton or killed with a taser, if you were alone and he was attacking you. that would be completely

different. what we have here is a man who's running away with a less lethal weapon. we call it less lethal because it could be lethal if it was deployed in the wrong manner. >> it could be lethal. >> anything could be. a broken beer bottle can be if it's deployed in a certain way. but it's not necessarily a lethal weapon. and when somebody's running away with it that really diminishes it. so like i said the analogy would be a police baton, or if he had a metal pipe. what if he was running away with a metal pipe, could you shoot him in the back? no, you couldn't. now, if he stopped aand attacke you and he was coming at you i don't know anybody in the world that would want to be hit with a metal pipe, i wouldn't and i would shoot him and i think every officer would. but look what we've got here, a man running away. >> so how do you avoid -- sorry,

jim. how do you avoid -- when you get called to a scene, you're a police officer, you get called to a scene the two of you, there's a guy asleep-in his car. you can make the assumption perhaps he's intoxicated. it's a drive-thru, why is he asleep? at that point, if you were following, if you're in a world that says how do i de-escalate a situation that does not escalate, if he's asleep we don't have a violent situation on our hands, what approach can one be thinking about at that point to say got to not have this guy in this line where he is? what else can i do here that's not going to lead -- when you're looking at the scuffle the one thing we have to give everybody in that scuffle is everybody seems to be scared for their life in that moment. rayshard brooks looks scared for his life. he know something's going to happen. he needs to get out of police custody very quickly. the officers i'm sure are not

enjoying the fact they're in a fight with this guy. what can happen to not get to this fight? >> well, you can try deescalation techniques with, you know, verbal communication with a person. you know, as a negotiator i always like to do that if i can. and it works sometimes. the problem is a lot of the times if people are intoxicated they will just not comply with verbal commands. they will be argumentative, they will dismiss it. anything you say they will, you know, just not comply. and so at some point it's not plain to see deescalation does work sometimes and it's the best course. i've a believer in it and i used it so many times in my 36 years, but there are also people who will not respond that way. they want to fight. they're intoxicated or they're on a drug or they're just angry, and they're going to fight. and then you're going to get into one of these situations.

but he should have just ran away and more officers were called and he was arrested a block away. that's why this is so, so sad. >> and given that they likely knew who he was or at least had his car or were able to have figured that out based on the car. we don't know it was his car he was driving but they had enough information. so this guy goes into the wind if he's not posing a threat to anyone because if his initial situation was he was asleep and he ends up running away i'm assuming modern policing can find this guy. >> yeah, we have to make officers think differently. so what if he gets away? i mean, he's not a serial killer that's killing everything in the city. he's a man who was in a car asleep and may have been inebriated. i mean, if he gets away the city is not in tremendous danger. so we've got to get the mind-set of officers that, well, maybe he'll get away. okay, you're not less of an

officer. you didn't fail your job. he got away. people get away, and we have to get to the mind set it's not worth it for you to draw a gun, to shoot a man like that. unless the man has a gun and you think he's going to kill people -- you know, there are situations. people can be so dangerous that they have to be stopped getting away. there are cases like that. this one we just discussed in florida, you know, there are cases like that. but this is not one of them, and most cases are not. >> so that's the trick, jim. how -- in what part of the training does that become clear? the evaluation that, yeah, okay, try to arrest the guy, there's a struggle, he's not interested in being arrested but we're not sure that we have any evidence that this guy is some menace to society and he gets away. how -- where does that come into the training, right?

because that would i think to some people would look like a failure, that i'm trying to arrest this guy, he's resisting arrest. now the objective becomes arrest him. then he runs away and the objective becomes stop him, as opposed to the all right we didn't really know what this was in the first place, we've got a car here. we can figure out who this guy is, and if he turns out to be a bad apple we can find him. but i would imagine if anybody's been watching the news for the last two weeks i would hope the one thing that the protests have achieved is some about to have police give this a second thought. and i want you to tell me how naive that is on my part to think that police can in the process of that interaction with mr. brooks at any time starting from the time they approached him he was asleep-in the car to the time there seems to be some dispute as to whether they attempted a sobriety test with him, to that tussle we see on the video on the ground to the

wendy's surveillance video where we see him running away. as what points in that interaction can the police say we're not going down this road? >> well, we have to have the new mind set. because what we're living in is a mind-set of the '60s, policing in the '60s when we're living in 2020 in the digital age. let me give you an example of that. when i was a young officer we stopped a car in a traffic violation, and we have the person who's given the ticket sign the ticket. it says clearly on the ticket it's not an admission of guilt but a lot of people feel like it is and they do not want to sign the ticket. well, in most states, many states still you have to then arrest the person because they didn't sign the ticket. well, i have been in some awful fights with people because they wouldn't sign a ticket and they

have right to argue the ticket. today we have digital cameras. the camera shows the person who he is. why do we need his signature? we have his driver's license. we have his license plate number. i mean, why are we forcing the person to sign the ticket which then becomes an angst, a problem where we now have to fight the person on the side of the road? so there's a lot of things like that. where is mr. brooks going to go? i mean, he's not going to go anywhere that far. he doesn't have a helicopter down the street he's going to get on and fly or something. he's a man from the neighborhood. this is the scenario that caused me so much agony in the case of walter scott in south carolina where he just ran from a traffic stop because he didn't pay his child support. and the officer cold-blooded

murdered him and shot him in the back and then planted his taser next to him. i mean, that was such an awful case. you know, what if he ran away and you couldn't catch him? okay, well i wasn't the fastest runner when i was a policeman. i couldn't catch everybody, but i wasn't going to shoot you in the back. so you got away? well, who are you? you know what? next morning there might be two detectives at your house. and we had to police smart. because we didn't have the resources, police smart. he doesn't have a rifle or pistol so you can arrest him there. so we had to outsmart them a little bit, and we've got to get that mind setback into policing that, you know, these people can get away unless there's just some heinous crime that's being committed. >> right, right.

>> you know, don't indangendang anybody else. we saw this involving police car chases. >> growing up we used to see car chases all the time and people realized the cost benefit analysis is not good on that. >> right, families would get killed in a collision when you're after the vehicle for traffic. a family gets wiped out. why is that a good decision? let it go. let it go. and sergeants were brought in. they had to make decisions on, you know, whether the chase could go on. and american policing has gotten much better on those cases over the years. well, the same has to happen in these arrest cases. and also many, many arrests don't need to happen. they just don't need to happen. i mean, look at walter -- look at mr. floyd in minneapolis. i don't know how much counterfeit money he had on him. i don't even know if he might

have had one $20 bill. he might have cashed it with no knowledge, we can do that with counterfeit money. we don't even know we have counterfeit money. and he could maybe been given a summons that said you know i took your counter-foot money out of your pocket and here's the summons, you've got to be in court in two weeks. mr. garner in new york city selling a cigarette he could have been given a summons. now, some people won't appear and you have to come back and give them a warrant. there's always a possibility of conflict, but a lot of times why are we making it street conflict? let the person come in, turn himself in. and so you can reduce these cases by smart policing. you've got the guy on camera. give him a summons. don't force officers to arrest people who don't sign a ticket. give them more leeway that way and, you know, make it a little easier and smarter. and don't force them to think

they've got to catch everybody. give them shoot, don't shoot training and i think we're going to see a whole lot of revamping in american policing. the citizens are demanding it. it's going to happen this time. i think it's going to make things better but it's not going to be an easy road. >> this is -- i want to just check in with blayne alexander who is following this for us, and she is trying to get more information in here including the extra videos. we have four extra videos now. so we've been watching two videos. one was somebody a bystander who took the video. the second one is the video from wendy's that we're seeing in the parking lot that does show mr. brooks turning around and aiming that taser generally in the direction of the police officers just before he is shot. blayne lets us know there are now four more pieces of video. there are now two dash cam videos and two body camera

videos. they were on i suppose, blayne, but we don't know whether they show us anything useful. have you had a chance to get a sense of what other evidence is in this case? >> i have and they do. they do show other vantage point of what happened. you know what's interesting about it, ali, is really the interactions were pretty calm for the first 25 minutes or so of the video. you see officers standing outside, mr. brooks' feet is in his car. the officers standing outside questioning what's he doing there, how many drinks has he had, going back and forth like that in a relatively calm demeanor in the better part of 20, 25 minutes. it's about 28 minutes or so into that body camera video mr. brooks begins a field sobriety test where you do the things like can you count, can you walk those types of things. that goes on for a mew minutes. and then a few minutes later, 43 minutes is when a on officer

says you know what i think you've had too much to drink to be driving and starts to place him under arrest. and that is when the video escalates about 43 minutes in. and so you kind of see that when you see the kind of struggle begin. and the next where it goads into that eyewitness video that you've seen previously with the tussling on the ground. so it certainly gives us a walk up to exactly what happened. and again, like i said it's very interesting it's very common to that moment of arrest, until that happened. one thing i do want to report, too, and i don't know if we have the photos but we've also obtained from atlanta police department the pictures and more information and names of the two officers who have been fired. so we've got two of their photographs, and we've also learned that they've been on the force for one of them just a couple of years. one of the officers prior in 2018, the other hired in 2013. so one officer placed on

administrative leave. he was the one who was hired in 2018. the other who was terminated was hired in 2013. so, again, learning a little bit more information and again really just underscoring the atlanta police putting more information about this throughout the night, ali. >> so the video that we are seeing now, which follows from the video that you were seeing of the tussle of the ground we now know to be more than 40 minutes into the interaction between police and mr. brooks. jim, let me ask you this. it's a point that was brought earlier tonight. it was brought up by mark claxton. and that is after having seen george floyd's video or whatever other videos that you've watched in the last few years there is a fear amongst some black men about what happens when they go into police custody. so there is an added element

here when we're talking about deescalation of the fact that the act of arresting a black man for a nonviolent crime has people worried. there may be some instinct there to run, to get away, to say -- i mean i heard people telling me tonight and today, and i've heard this from others who exist in positions of prominence in society to say that nothing feels like the feeling of about to be arrested if you're a black man. and the worry about what that means. how do we figure out how the police can have empathy for that perspective that says this guy wants to get away because he actually fears for his life? >> you know, i don't even think you should be -- the first two weeks of the police academy you ought to know the history of america. we can go up to a police officer for the most part and say do you know who vernon domer is, do you

know who emmitt till is? and they don't know who those people are who sacrificed their lives in the civil rights era. do you know the reverend was in birmingham where they bombed his church over and over, the klan? they don't know his history. you can't be that person and you can't be that person's race maybe, but you have to understand their history so you can deal with the people that you have to deal with in the community. so i think in the beginning the police forces fleed to do that. they need to take the people to the civil rights museums around the country, alabama, memphis, you know, washington. they need to understand this before you enter into the police service. secondly, you know, the states need to change some of the laws so officers can make these decisions. you know, here's officers that did speak to mr. brooks for 45 minutes but then when they wept

to arrest him which they probably couldn't have let him go because he was operating a motor vehicle and he was inebriated and they had to. but everything was done right until they drew the gun and shot him. so prior to that i didn't see anything wrong. >> jim, thank you for your help tonight. the news will continue here on msnbc. richard louie picks it up from here. richard louie picks it up from here ve me your hand! i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when you think of a bank, you think of people in a place. but when you have the chase mobile app, your bank can be virtually any place. so, when you get a check... you can deposit it from here.

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coverage of breaking news coming out of atlanta, georgia, this evening on a very early morning, 1:00 a.m. eastern. for those of you just joining us we're covering the breaking news coming out of atlanta. what we now. the police officer involved in the shooting death of 27-year-old rayshard brooks has been fired as of this hour. we learned that within the last 60 minutes. another officer also has been put on administrative leave. a fire broke out tonight in the wendy's parking lot where police shot and killed mr. brooks. and hours ago, atlanta's police chief resigned. earlier the attorney for family of rayshard brooks spoke about his death at the hands of police. >> you can't say you don't have other options. where was he going to go? he was barely jogging away. you could have boxed him in. support came in i think two minutes.

he would have been