and for those of you just joining us we're covering breaking news at this hour in atlanta, georgia. a new flash-point in the debate over police violence. the police officer involved in the shooting death of 27-year-old rayshard brooks has been fired at this hour. another officer has been put on administrative leave. a fire breaking out tonight in the wendy's parking lot where police shot and killed mr. brooks. and hours ago atlanta's police chief resigning. earlier the attorney for the family of rayshard brooks spoke about his death at the hands of police. take a listen. >> you can't say you don't have other options. where was he going to go?

he was barely jogging away. you could have boxed him in. support came in i think two minutes. he would have been foxed in and trapped. why did you have to kill him? >> now, earlier this evening mayor keisha lance bottoms of atlanta announced that chief erika shields had resigned. >> chief erika shields has been a solid member of apd for over two decades and has a deep and abiding love for the people of atlanta. and because of her desire that atlanta be a model of what meaningful reform should look like across this country chief shields has offered to immediately step aside as police chief so that the city may move forward with urgency in rebuilding the trust so desperately needed throughout our communities. >> again, all this coming after

the incident involving the killing of rayshard brooks. officers responding to that wendy's after brooks supposedly fell asleep in the drive-thru line. the georgia bureau of investigation says the 27-year-old man failed a field sobriety test. that's when officers tried to arrest him and he apparently resisted. then grabbing one of their tasers and trying to run off. now, gbi is saying he might have been trying to fire the taser when an officer shot at him. brooks died at the hospital. former chief shields had been with atlanta pd for two decades. her resignation statement reads in part, "out of a deep and abiding love for the city and this department i offered to step aside as police chief." she added, "it is time for the city to move forward and build trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve." joined now on the phone with msnbc correspondent blayne alexander, blayne, if we're at this hour and we're watching, what might we learn next?

that might be what comes from body cam video from one of the officers. what did we know? >> well, one thing we're learning, we're learning the timing of how long this took place. it was about 43 minutes before the whole thing really escalated. very largely calm, relatively calm up until the point that officers tried to place him under arrest and you saw the thing escalate very quickly. i believe we have video, a couple of clips of body cam video. i was able to go through and review and tweeted out two clips that almost show notable turning points in this chronology. so one was about 28 minutes in. and that's when you saw mr. brooks beginning to take a field sobriety test. and again, the demeanor on both he and the officers who were talking with him was calm. you can see that at one point almost saying hey, should i take off my shoes?

you can take off your shoes, that's your choice. just a very kind of calm type of demeanor as he begins to take these field sobriety tests. that was 28 minutes in. the second one was 43 minutes in. and that's where you hear the officer essentially say i think you had too much to drink to be driving tonight and i'm going to put you under arrest. you see him move to put his hands behind his back, try to handcuff him and that's when he tries to get away. the other officer comes in, tries to hold him as well. and they didn't -- richard, it's remarkable how quickly that shifts from the beginning to the end of, that about 64 seconds or so, it goes from calm conversation to hearing gunshots at the end of that time period. it escalates very quickly. and then of course we know from the other angles of video that there was a tussle, you know, investigators saying you see him grab a taser, run, turn around, appear to point that and an officer responds with gunfire. in that video, richard, you can

hear what appeared to sound like three gunshots. what seemed to sound like three gunshots at the end of that piece of video. >> blayne, in what you've been able to review here, one of the questions that's out there is what happened when rayshard brooks, when he was running, whether or not he was able to fire a taser or not, in the video do we see or hear anything that might indicate what thant rax may have been? again, the reporting potentially including that he did aim a taser at the officers. of course then we understand the officer shooting at him and killing him in any response, whether there was a taser or not. do we have any understanding of what that video shows us? >> yeah, the answer in that one comes from the surveillance video, the video released by the georgia bureau of investigation that's coming from the wendy's parking lot. that's where you see him turn around and what appears to be him pointing the -- gbi director

when he spoke said that that was what happened, said that's what happened in the investigation. and it does appear to show him turn around and aiming an object at investigators. that's kind of the key piece of video to watch for that. and then you see the police respond with gunfire there. >> blaine, you've been reporting on this. we are now able to show some of the video you've been able to review. it's the new body camera footage that was obtained by nbc news. you see it right here. you'll see in this moment when officers attempted to handcuff rayshard brooks, which you were indicating earlier, blayne, that's about 40 minutes into their interaction with him, and then that scuffle ensues you've been describing to us, blayne. the body camera falling to the ground. maybe about this moment here. and then at the end of the video you can hear what appears to be gunshots. we want to warn you the video is disturbing. here we go.

>> stop fighting! >> [ bleep ]. [ yelling ] [ gunshots ] >> all right, blayne, we were able to show some of the video there that you've been able to review so far, we'll play a little again on the left-hand side. that's what you were describing, right? >> absolutely. that's what we were describing. that was about 43 minutes into that video -- >> blayne, are you still -- blayne alexander? >> i am. can you hear me? can you hear me, richard? i'm still here. that video that we saw was about 43 minutes in to the video from the vantage point of one of the body cameras of one of the

officers there. the other point that i'll make is that gbi director vic reynolds says that what appeared to happen is that mr. brooks appeared to turn around and point the taser at the officers. that's what he said during that news conference there. and you see again what appears to be that in that video. in the surveillance video as well. i really think that video is notable because it does give us context again into the timing and it also shows not in this particular clip but elsewhere it shows the officers did search him and discovered that he was not armed. >> blayne alexander, thank you so much for your reporting tonight on this very topic. again, the new video coming in to us here at msnbc and nbc news. marq claxton still with us, jim cavanaugh still with us. to the control room, if we can play that video one more time and then i do want to get marq as well as jim's response to what we were just able to show

new here on msnbc. let's play that video if we can. >> i think you've had too much to drink to be driving. hands behind your back for me. put your hands behind your back. >> hey! stop fighting. stop fighting. you're going to get tased! >> stop! you're going to get tased! hands off the taser! hands off the taser! [ sounds of struggle ] >> stop fighting! [ gunshots ] >> marq, what did you hear

there? >> well, i heard exactly what jim cavanaugh several minutes ago predicted we would hear, and that is routine what should be a very routine kind of police stop or an attempt to handcuff an individu individual. the mild resistance initially followed by some more direct resistance. and the question still remains. the question that the attorney posed early on, that jim had posed, that i'm posing. that is why did you shoot this man? why did you kill this man? because nothing that we have seen as of yet, and i don't see how anything could change this, or any additional video could change this, the most informative video is what we've seen through the wendy's parking lot which shows the chasing and the firing of the gunshots.

but nothing's going to change that. it still is offensive. there's still many questions as to why, why did you kill this man. it's just out of line. it's out of order. but the video is exactly as jim had predicted it would be. it's a situation, it's an area that police officers -- nothing unusual. no need for this escalating level of force, deadly physical force. there's nothing there that would justify the use of deadly physical force. >> jim, what did you learn from watching this? marq is agreeing with what you said earlier. what's going through the mind of an officer right now in that situation? whatever might be typical here. >> well, it was a routine interaction first. it took them 43 minutes talking with mr. brooks as blayne described, and then they decided to make the arrest because he

was inebriated and had been operating a motor vehicle and couldn't be allowed to continue. and what happens often is, and marq's done, it i've done it, and every officer has, when you start to arrest people sometimes, and i can remember some of the worst fights i had was when i got one handcuffed, and it just seems to be that the person decides at that point that they want to resist. and that's what mr. brooks did. but none of this justifies killing him. he resisted. but people resist. that's the way the world is. and they can be taken into custody safely. and the officers, everything they did there that we watched was okay until they shot him when he was running away. now, one thing i agree totally with marq, the most important video is the video from the wendy's -- the high side video from wendy's. what i've seen from watching that so many times is i do believe that mr. brooks does

deploy the taser right when he turns around behind the red car because you can actually see the flash when he deploys the taser. and what the officer does if you watch it closely, he's running at first with the taser in his right hand. you'll first see that on the dash cam video. the officer has his taser in his right hand. he's chasing mr. brooks, who has the other taser. and then when they get down near the red car the officer switches the taser to liz left hand and he reaches for his weapon with his right hand. then he drops the taser by the back of the red car. and when he's shooting mr. brooks. so mr. brooks i believe does turn and shoot the taser. still it's no reason to use deadly force. you know what a taser does. you know how far away it is. it's unlikely it's going to incapacitate you.

you can see him turn. you'll see the flash on his taser. and then the officer just before that has changed hands with his taser, comes right into his left, and with his right hand he draws his duty weapon, drops the taser and shoots mr. brooks. it's just a horrible, horrible situation. this young man should not be dead. he might have got away, got a block away and could have been apprehended. he should not be dead. it's just wrong. i think the atlanta mayor took swift action to fire him. the district attorney, gbi got a look at this stuff quickly. you know, too much delay in justice in all these cases. just too much delay when proof is in front of your face. they need to take action on these cases. i do not think that second officer did anything wrong if he didn't fire his weapon. unless there's some other thing that might have been done.

but we can't see it. and he's on administrative duty. so he's not responsible for the shots fired by the other officer. and what we saw previously in the video, we didn't see that other officer or either one of them doing anything wrong until the one officer shot mr. brooks. >> yeah, jim, for those who are joining us, garrett rolfe was fired. the officer that did we believe shoot and kill, at least based on the reporting right now. again, this is alleged because this is still going to go through investigation as well as more details potentially coming out. the killing of, again, rayshard brooks. so from our -- on your side here, garrett rolfe was pierd. we have the second officer who's on administrative leave. we have erika shields who has resigned. when you look at what you have called a dangerous instrument potentially being aimed by

rayshard brooks at the officer, is there anything that would justify jim saying no? you've said no in the past. is there anything procedurally that might give a gray space in terms of what we saw on this video so many times? also getting the body cam video just in that we showed moments ago. >> no, it's no gray space here. i mean, the use of force continuum if it applies here and it should be applied is clear. and the use of deadly physical force is not justified in this particular case. especially, richard, when you consider that some police departments, and i don't know if atlanta does this, during the course of their training actually they actually deploy the tasers on the trainees. just so they would have understanding about the impact and effects of the tasers themselves. like i said, i don't -- i'm not that familiar with atlanta's

training procedure. but there are some jurisdictions that that's part of the actual training, is to be tased by your colleagues. so quite clearly the taser is not a deadly instrument. it's a dangerous instrument but not a deadly weapon. which is a distinction that we often use in new york at the very least. there's no gray area. pretty clear, straightforward, as jim has indicated, it really shouldn't take that much effort and energy in these quote unquote investigations to come to some sort of swift conclusion, at least a direction for the prosecution of this incident. >> jim, you were mentioning earlier here the dropping of the taser at the back of the red car and then the removal of the gun from the holster. what typically is in training

the justification for doing that? >> well, the choice to use deadly force, if somebody's firing a gun at you you don't want to be holding a taser. you can be throwing that thing down as fast as you can. that's going to be like a hot skillet in my hand, a taser if somebody's firing a firearm at me. so the officer, first he switches hands and then he drops the taser and draws his weapon. i think one of the big points, though, that's going to play here is it's the officer, when the taser -- when mr. brooks zpurnd fired the taser is goes off like a report. the officer knew mr. brooks didn't have a gun. they just searched him. they searched him. they frisked him. he did not have a gun. and they knew he had a taser. so i don't see how he's going to be able to not know that was a taser. and shot him. why would he do this?

we can guess his racial animus or we don't know. was he punched? was he too excited? what was the reason? there is no reason to kill a man in a situation like this. it's a shame. this is a young man. he's 27 years old. >> 27. >> just really a shame. he made a bad choice maybe to fight with the officers but not a choice that gives his life. it's just the choice of an arrest. he should have been allowed to run across that parking lot and get arrested in the morning. it just is a sad, sad way the police in america, we've just got to stop it. >> a catastrophe by all standards. rolling coverage here on msnbc. we have new video that came in to us. nbc news reviewing it. and now we want to show you some of that new video. it's basically new body camera

footage obtained by nbc news. and what you'll see, i want to replay it again in case you're just joining us. it is the moment when the officers that you've seen in the video just moments ago, when they attempted to handcuff rayshard brooks about 40 minutes into their interaction with him. a scuffle ensuing in this video. the body camera falling to the ground at the end of what we'll show you. and at the end of the video as well you can hear what appear to be gunshots. we want to warn you again, the video is disturbing. take a listen. >> i think you have too much to drink to be driving. put your hands behind your back for me. put your hands behind your back. >> hey. stop that! stop fighting. stop fighting. >> you're going to get tased! you're go to get tased! >> stop! stop! >> you're going to get tased! hands off the taser!

hands off the taser! [ sounds of struggle ] >> stop fighting! [ yelling ] [ gunshots ] >> jim cavanaugh still with us. marq claxton. marq, stop fighting. and then very soon after what appear again to be three shots. in that sequence of events what stands out to you? >> the more i see it the more -- there was nothing significant or unusual in that interaction and

nothing a police officer shouldn't be prepared for or expecting. i mean, it is just so routine that it makes it that much more egregious what happens afterwards. those are commands that you give. they're normal. they're routine commands. but you have the full understanding that not everyone can instantaneously abide by the commands. and i think too often police fail to realize that they are trained to handle certain situations. they are trained to perform under high stress and make clearheaded decisions. that's their training. oftentimes civilians react kind of emotionally, especially if they're under the effects of some substance perhaps. those are all things you have to take into account as a police officer when you're approaching or interacting with people. you know, because you receive that first-class training in how to manage stress, how to react

in the most stressful times, how to face the danger that's there. the civilian doesn't have that same training. there should be no expectation on your part as a professional that they do. so understand, they react instinctively. sometimes they react inwisely. but you have to rely heavily on your training to make sure that you remain safe and they remain safe and you can get the job done. >> really good point for us civilians, marq, that you make. and over to you, jim, on this. for civilians you look at that environment. it does appear very high stress. but for those who go through the academy, for those who are trained, for those who have years, and again we're watching some live pictures out of atlanta, georgia. 2:23 local time. a little bit earlier, about an hour ago we were watching what appeared to be tear gas on the ground. people rubbing their eyes as well as grabbing their faces. common reaction unfortunately that we've seen lately across

the country in every single town it appears in america. but jim, that academy experience, those years of training, the years of experience, does it -- how does that work in terms of handling high-stress situations as marq was describing that we have been playing for our viewers throughout this evening? how does it help them? >> well, they should be able to handle a fight with a person resisting arrest that does not involve, you know, a weapon. and it's a completely different scenario when you're an officer who is alone fighting with someone or there's two of you. we used to say, and marq will remember this in training, you know, in every fight you're in there's you and at least one other person and there's a gun. it may be just the policeman's

gun. but there's always a gun there. so it's you, another guy, and a gun. so you can't let him get your gun in a fight. and if you're alone in the fight, things can get really bad really fast. >> well, jim -- i'm sorry to interrupt here, jim, but based on what you heard from the body cam video we were able to play, is that consistent with the training? consistent with that which you were taught in the academy? >> yes. i thought everything they did was consistent and even to the point where you can clearly hear him saying hands off the taser, hands off the taser. both officers knew that mr. brooks was fighting for -- trying to get their taser. they were looking right at him. they're yelling at him. they didn't rush the arrest. they were there for 43 minutes. they gave him a sobriety check. everything they did was normal. like marq said it was even just routine. it wasn't anything out of the

ordinary. and he resisted. and again, this is not out of the ordinary. so why do you lose your head and shoot him? i mean, your facts here, you know, you searched him, you know he's got a taser and he might have shot it at you. but you know how tasers work. judgment, no judgment. you can't lose your judgment just because you got in a fight. >> all right. marq claxton, 30 seconds here to you. in 30 seconds, as you're telling young officers how to handle such difficult high-stress situations, what do you tell them? >> well, nowadays what i have been telling them is reform is in the air, there is extra scrutiny, and there is extra requirements for professional police officer. you have to be of the highest standard level right now in this

environment because there's so much scrutiny. understandably, justifiably. so that's what i tell them, is to maintain your level of professionalism and look to expand and buy into the reform that's going on. >> marq claxton, director of the black law enforcement aliefrns. jim cavanaugh, former atf special agent in charge. thanks so much for your counsel here as we watch some of the pictures coming out of atlanta this year. stay with us if you can. we continue to watch the rolling news coverage on the killing of rayshard brooks. this as new body cam video came out as well as the firing of one of the officers and administrative leave for the second officer involved. in addition to that, the chief of police locally there in atlanta, georgia resigning. so much happening at this hour. live news coming out of atlanta, georgia. stay with us right here on msnbc. my colleague ali velshi picks up the coverage right after the break. stick around. the wind in your hair...

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i'm ali velshi. this is msnbc. and we have breaking news out of atlanta, where we are covering the aftermath of the police killing of rayshard brooks, 27-year-old man, on friday night in the parking lot of a wendy's. now, this is the scene right now. there are protesters gathered around the area in which brooks was killed, and there's a heavy police presence around there. the wendy's was set on fire, and the police have assembled at the

entrance to a highway to ensure that the protesters don't go onto the highway and block traffic. this is the scene earlier with that wendy's fully engulfed in fire. that fire has now been put out. the developments are as follows. shortly after news of the shooting came out there was video that was taken by a bystander. and subsequently the police released the surveillance video from the wendy's parking lot two, angles of the shooting. that did result in the officer who is seen shooting mr. brooks being relieved of duty. he has been -- we believe he's been fired. another officer is on administrative leave. through see it. the officer closest to mr. brooks -- mr. brooks goes by the red car. the officer's there at the red car. that's the officer who shot at him. now, here's what happened. jim cavanaugh's still with me, and he has a very good description of this. i'm going to give you my description of it and then we're

going to talk to jim about what it means from a policing standpoint. so i'm going to need the video that was taken by the bystander. this is the wendy's video. let's refer to the bystander video first. that is where we first learned that there's a scuffle between the police officers and mr. brooks. the phone call came in about a man who was asleep in his car. and tonight across america what a lot of people are wondering is how a man asleep in his car posing no threat to anyone except blocking the wendy's drive-thru, that may feel like a serious threat to someone but not something someone loses their life over, how that escalated into the man being dead while running away from cops. and i want to bring jim cavanaugh in to explain because jim, while we know him as a special agent in charge of the atf, jim was a patrol officer many years ago and jim, to you a call for someone in a car, someone where they're not

supposed to be was a relatively common call for you. tell me how this probably went down. >> likely it went down that maybe mr. brooks was inebriated. and so if he was operating the motor vehicle when he was ineven raitted and they were talking with him, you know, at some point they might have decided to arrest him for driving while intoxicated. they could have asked him if he was inebriated to get in his car and drive away. the officers would not be allowed to let a inebriated man drive a vehicle. so what probably happened was he was inebriated, he smelled of alcohol, he had fallen asleep in the drive-thru and they were going to arrest him for operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated. the motor s.e.c. vehicle does not have to be driving if you're sitting in the driver's seat and the engine is running. that is sufficient for a charge of driving while intoxicated.

most likely that's what happened. they were going to arrest him for that. when they tried to arrest him he resisted. and if you watch the video, ali, first it appears he resists without violence, which is a misdemeanor. in other words, it's when you won't let the officers handcuff you -- it's kind of what you saw in mr. floyd's case when he was arrested in minneapolis at the original car. he's not drifting with violence. he's resisting without violence. he's not letting the officers handcuff him -- >> to be clear resisting without violence means you're not putting your hands behind your back the way they want you to put your hands behind your back. you're trying to not be restrained. >> yeah. you're argumentative, you're not complying, your arms are stiff, every time you try to handcuff you pull away. it's a misdemeanor. now, resisting with violence is what this grew into when they were on the ground because mr. brooks does strike the officers. he throws haymakers at them. he clearly grabs their taser.

there's a real struggle over the taser. and it appears that both officers know this is going on. they're looking right at the taser. he's pulling the taser. and he jumps up, he swings at them. you know, he's resisting them with violence. that's a felony. but then he runs away. so when he runs away, and you're in pursuit of him, there's no reason for deadly force. what happens when they get to the rear of the car, mr. brooks does turn and he fires the taser at the officer that's immediately behind him that shoots him must know it is the taser that he took. and the officer then drops his taser, this is what the video appears to show, draws his weapon, his sidearm, and shoots mr. brooks. so that cannot be a justified use of force. the other officer doesn't appear to fire his gun that i can see in the video, and i didn't see anything that was done wrong in

the struggle. remember, sometimes citizens see police arrests and they say there's excessive force and it is not. in other words, what was on the ground with those two officers and mr. brooks it was not excessive force. sometimes it looks awful but it is lawful. and the officers can use the amount of force necessary to make the arrest. they can punch you. it's not illegal or unlawful or excessive force for an officer to punch you if he's trying to get you to comply for an arrest. so force can be deployed. they can strike you with a baton in the leg. sometimes you have to. and it's worse when you're alone. it's even more difficult when the officer is alone. but here they had two officers. their actions were i think in line with everything up until he shot mr. brooks. and then it was a clearly unjustified use of force. >> the fact that we can see the tasers is usually because the tasers are a different color. they're often a bright color so

you can see it being carried in mr. brooks's hand. you can see the other officer seemed to have a taser in his hand as well. talk to me about tasers. the lawyer, chris stewart, for the brooks family says that what they're in court arguing the police used a taser on a victim the argument is always the taser's not lethal. it's not lethal. it's certainly not even damaging over a certain area. a certain distance. so in this case when he's got a taser running the other way he poses no danger to the police. >> right, ali. and you said it so clearly. what's key here is the totality of the circumstances. let me make it even easier for all of us to understand. let's say it's not a taser, it's a police baton, a night stick, a long wooden stick. okay. a long wooden stick is a weapon

that can kill you. if that weapon is waled on your head it can kill you or cause serious bodily harm. if mr. brooks had taken the baton from the officer and was running away just like he was with the taser, there would be no justification for an officer to shoot mr. brooks. that weapon is less lethal, like a taser. we call those less lethal weapons. but they can be lethal. they can be abused. now, how could an officer, you know, shoot justifiably a man that took his baton? well, look, if the officer was alone and they were fighting and the man took his baton and the man came at the officer and started wailing on him, the officer would be more than justified to shoot him. i mean, you don't have to be killed with the baton or killed with the taser if you were alone and he was attacking you. that would be completely different. what we have here is a man who's

running away with a less legalitial weapon. we call less lethal. because it could be legalitial if it was deployed in the wrong manner. anything could be. a broken beer bottle can be if it's deployed in a certain way. >> right. >> but it's not necessarily a lethal weapon. and when somebody's running away with it, that really diminishes it. so like i say, the analogy would be a police baton. or if he had a metal pipe. what if he was running away with a metal pipe? could you shoot him in the back? no, you couldn't. now, if he stopped and attacked you and he was coming at you, i don't know anybody in the world who would want to be hit in the head with a metal pipe. shernl i wouldn't. and i would shoot him if he came at me with a metal pipe. and i think every officer would. but look what we've got here. a man running away. >> how do you avoid -- sorry, jim. how do you avoid -- when you get called to a scene, you're a

police officer, you get called to a scene, two of you, there's a guy asleep in his car. you can make the assumption perhaps that he's intoxicated, right? because otherwise why is he -- or he's really tired. but it's a drive-thru. why is he asleep? at that point if you were following, if you were in a world that says how do i deescalate a situation that's not escalated, if he's asleep we don't have a violent situation on our hands. what approach can one be thinking of at that point to say got to not have this guy in this line where he is? what else can i do here that's not going to leave -- because i think in this scuffle when you're looking at the scuffle the one thing we have to give everybody in that scuffle is everybody seems to be scared for their life in that moment. rayshard brooks looks scared for his life. he knows something's going to happen. he needs to get out of police custody very quickly. the officers i'm sure are not enjoying the fact that they're in a fight with this guy.

what can happen to not get to this fight? >> well, you can try deescalation techniques with verbal communication with a person. and you know as a negotiator i always like to do that if i can. and it works sometimes. the problem is a lot of times if people are intoxicated they will just not comply with verbal commands. they will be argumentative. they will dismiss it. anything you say they will just not comply. and so at some point it's not a panacea. deescalation works sometimes and it should be tried. it's the best course, and i'm a believer in it. and i used it so many times in my 36 years. i had it many times. but there's also people that just will not respond that way. they want to fight. they're intox kate or they're on a drug or they're just angry. and they're going to fight. and then you're going to get into one of these situations. but he should have just ran away. and more officers were called. and he was arrested a block

away. that's why this is so sad. >> and given that they likely knew who he was or at least had his car or were able to have figured that out based on a car, we don't know know whether it was his car he was driving but they had enough information. if this guy goes into the wind, if he's not posing a threat to anyone because his initial situation was he was asleep and he ends up running away. i'm assuming modern policing can find this guy. >> yeah, and we have to make officers think differently. so what if he gets away? i mean, he's not a serial killer that's killing everybody in the city. he's a man who was in a car asleep and may have been inebriated. if he gets away, the city is not in tremendous danger. so we've got to get the mindset of officers that maybe he'll get away. okay. you're not less of an officer. you didn't fail at your job.

he got away. people get away. and we have to get to the mindset that that's -- it's not worth it for you to break leather, to draw a gun, to shoot a man like that. unless the man has a gun and you think he's going to kill people. you know, there are situations -- if people can be so dangerous that they have to be stopped getting away, there are cases like that. this one we just discussed in florida. you know, there are cases like that. but this is not one of them. and most cases are not. >> so that's the trick, jim. how -- in what part of the training does that become clear? the evaluation that yeah, okay, tried to arrest the guy, there's a struggle, he's not interested anybodying arrested, but we're not sure that we have any evidence that this guy is some menace to society and he gets away. where does that come into the training, right? because that would i think to

some people look like a failure, that i'm trying to arrest this guy, he's resisting arrest. now the objective becomes arrest him. then he runs away. the objective becomes stop him. as opposed to the all right, we didn't really know what this was in the first place, we've got a car here, we can figure out who this guy is, and if he turns out to be a bad apple we can find him. but i would imagine that if anybody's been watching the news for the last two weeks i would hope that the one thing the protests have achieved is some ability to have police give this a second thought. i want you to tell me how that yves that is on my part, to think that police can in the process of that interaction with mr. brooks at any time starting from the time that they approached him while he was asleep in the car to the time that they -- there seems to be some dispute as to whether they attempted a sobriety test with him. to that tussle that we see on the video on the ground. to the wendy's surveillance video where we see him running

away. at what point in that interaction can the police say we're not going down this road? >> well, we have to have a new mindset because what we're living in is a mindset of the '60s, policing in the '60s when we're living in 2020 with the digital age. let me give you an example of that. when i was a young officer, we'd stop a car, traffic violation, and we have the person who's given the ticket sign the ticket. it says clearly on the ticket it's not an admission of guilt. but a lot of people feel like it is and they do not want to sign the ticket. well, in most states, many states still, you have to then arrest the person because they didn't sign the ticket. well, i have been in some awful fights with people because they wouldn't sign a ticket. and wanted to argue the ticket. where today we have digital

cameras. i mean, the officer's camera's showing you the person who he is. why do we need his signature? we have his driver's license. we just wrote him a ticket. we have his license plate number. i mean, why are we forcing the person to sign the ticket? which then becomes an angst, a problem, where we now have to fight the person on the side of the road. so there's a lot of things like that. where is -- we have to inculcate in the police where is mr. brooks going to go? i mean, he's not going to go anywhere that far. he doesn't have a helicopter down the street that he's going to get on and fly to bimini or something. he's a man from the neighborhood. this is the scenario that's flummoxed me so much and caused me so much agony in the case of walter scott in south carolina where he just ran from a traffic stop because he didn't pay his child support.

and the officer murdered him and shot him in the back and planted a taser next to him. that was such an awful case. what if he ran away and you couldn't catch him? you know, okay, well, i wasn't the fastest runner when i was a policeman. i wasn't the fastest runner. i couldn't catch everybody. but i wasn't going to shoot you in the back. so you got away. well, who are you? you know what? next morning there might be two detectives at your house. and we had to police smart because we didn't have so many of the resources. we tried to police smart. catch the guy at the grocery store when he's coming out with a bag of groceries. he's not as likely to shoot you because he pivot'll and you cant him there. so we had to outsmart him there. and we have to get that mindset back into policing that these people can get away, unless some heinous crime is being committed. >> right. >> don't endanger anybody else.

we saw they have ofl in polire car chases. >> growing up we used to see police chases all the time and people realized the cost-benefit analysis is not good on that. >> right. i mean, families would get killed in a collision when you're after the vehicle for traffic. a family gets wiped out. why is that a good decision? let it go. let it go. and sergeants were brought in. they had to make decisions on whether the chase could go on. and american policing has done much better on those cases over the years. well, the same has to happen in these arrest cases. and also many, many arrests don't need to happen. they just don't need to happen. i mean, look at walter -- look at mr. floyd in minneapolis. i don't know how much counterfet money he had on him. i don't even know if he didn't have any, he might have had one $20 bill. he might have cashed it with no

knowledge. we can do that with counterfeit money, you don't even know you have counterfeit money. he could have maybe been given a summons. and said you know, i took your counterfeit money out of your pocket and here's a summons, you've got knto be in court in o weeks. mr. garner in new york city, he could have been given a summons, go to court in two weeks. some people won't appear and you'll have to come back and get them on a warrant. there's always a possibility of conflict. but why are we making it street conflict? let the person come, in turn himself in. so you can reduce these cases by smart policing. you've got the guy on camera. give him a summons. don't force officers to arrest people who don't sign a ticket. give them more leeway that way. make it a little easier and smarter and don't force them to think they've got to catch everybody.

give them more shoot/don't shoot training. and i think we'll see a whole lot of revamping in american policing. the citizens are demanding it. it's going to happen this time. i think it's going to make things better. but it's not going to be an easy road. >> this is -- i want to just check in with blayne alexander, who is following this for us. and she is trying to get more information in here including the extra videos. we have four extra videos now. so we've been watching two videos. one was somebody who was a bystander who took the video. the second one is the video from wendy's we're seeing in the parking lot that does show mr. brooks turning around and aiming that taser generally in the direction of the police officers just before he is shot. blayne lets us know that there are now four more pieces of video. there are two dash cam videos and two body camera videos. they were on i suppose, blayne, but we don't know whether they show us anything useful. have you had a chance to get

some sense of what other evidence there is in this case? >> reporter: i have. and they do. they do show us another vantage point of what happened. i was just scrubbing through one of the videos, watching one of the videos from the officers. what's interesting, ali, was the interactions were pretty calm for the first 25 minutes or so of the video. you see officers standing outside. mr. brooks is seated in his car. officers standing outside, kind of questioning, asking him things like what is he doing there, what's his night been like, how many drinks has he had. going back and forth like that. in a relatively calm demeanor for the better part of 20, 25 minutes. it's about 28 minutes into that body camera video that brooks begins a sbrietd test, a field sobriety test where you do the things like can you count, can you walk, those types of things. that goes on for a few minutes. and then a few minutes later, 43 minutes in, is where an officer says you know what, i think you've had too much to drink to be driving and starts to place

him under arrest. and that is when the video escalates about 43 minutes in. that's when you see the struggle begin. and that's where it kind of goes into that eyewitness video that you've seen, you've seen previously, of the tussling on the ground. it certainly gives us a walk-up to exactly what happened. and again, like i said, very interesting that it was very calm until that moment of arrest. one thing i do want to report too, and i don't know if we have the photos, but we've also obtained from atlanta police department the pictures and more information and the names of the two officers who have been fired. so we've got two of their photographs. and we've also learned that they've been on the force, one of them just a couple of years. one of the officers was hired in 2018. the other hired in 2013. one officer placed on administrative leave. he was the one who was hired in

2018. the other one who was terminated was hired in 2013. atlanta police putting out more information about this throughout the night. ali? >> so the video that we are seeing now, which follows from the video that you were seeing of the tussle on the ground, we now know to be more than 40 minutes into the interaction between the police and mr. brooks. jim, let me ask you this. it's a point that was brought up by roland martin earlier tonight. it was brought up by jelani cobb earlier. it was brought up by marq claxton. and that is after having seen george floyd's video or whatever other videos that you've watched in the last few years, there is a fear amongst some black men about what happens when they go into police custody. so there is an added element here when we're talking about deescalation of the fact that

the act of arresting a black man for a non-violent crime has people worried. there may be some instinct there to run, to get away, to say -- i mean, i heard people telling me tonight and today, and i've heard this from others who exist in positions of prominence in society, to say that nothing feels like the feeling of about to be arrested if you're a black man. and the worry about what that means. how do we figure out how the police can have empathy for that perspective that says this guy wants to get away because he actually fears for his life? >> well, i don't even think you should be -- the first two weeks of the police academy ought to be history. you ought to know the history of america. we could go up to a police officer for the most part and say, well, do you know who emmett till is? they don't know who those people

are who sacrificed their lives in the civil rights era. do you know who reverend shuttlesworth was in birmingham? they bombed his church over and over, the klan. they don't know the history. they can't understand. now, you can't be that person and you can't be that person's race maybe but you have to understand the history so you can deal with the people you have to deal with in the community. so i think in the beginning the police forces need to do that. they need to take the people to the civil rights museums, around the country. alabama, memphis. washington. they need to understand this before they enter in the police service. secondly, the states need to change some of the laws so officer can make these decisions. here is officers that did speak to mr. brooks for 45 minutes but then when they went to arrest him, which they probably couldn't have let him go because

he was operating a motor vehicle and he was inebriated. he didn't want to go. but everything was right. done right. until they drew the gun sxhot him. prior to that i didn't see anything wrong. >> jim, thank you for your help tonight. the news will continue here on msnbc. richard lui picks it up from here. here are you a weirdo?

[ scoffs ] the weirdest. you make everyone around you crazy. people are normal then they hang out with you and then they're jack nicholson in "the shining". i'm gonna tell my mom you tried to drown me. it's an above ground pool! you're like eight feet tall! we continue our rolling coverage of breaking news, coming out of atlanta, georgia, this evening, on a very early morning. 1:00 a.m. eastern.