wednesd wendy's parking lot. and atlanta's police chief resigning. the attorney for the family of rayshard brooks he going to go? he was barely jogging away. you could have boxed him in. support came and i think two minutes. why did you have to kill him? >> now, earlier this evening, mayor bottoms of atlanta announced that chief erica shields had resigned. >> chief erica shields has been a solid member of apd for over two decades and has a deep and abiding love for the people of atlanta. because of her desire that atlanta be a model of what meaningful reform should look like across this country, chief shields has offered to immediately step aside as police

chief so that the city may move forward with urgency in rebuilding the trust so desperately needed throughout our community. >> again, all of this coming after the incident involving the killing of rayshard brooks. officers responding to that wendy's after brooks supposedly fell asleep in the drive-through line. the georgia bureau of investigation says the 27-year-old man failed a field sobriety test. that's when officers tried to arrest him and he apparently resisted and then grabbing one of their tasers and tried to runoff. gbi saying he might have been trying to fire the taser when officers shot at him. brooks died at the hospital. former chief shields he owe. >> out of a deep and abiding love for the city and this department, i offered to step aside as police chief. it is time for the city to move forward and build trust between

law enforcement and the communities they serve, unquote. joining me now on the phone with msnbc correspondent blayne alexander. blayne, at this hour and we're watching what might we learn next, that might be what comes from body cam video from one of the officers. what do we know? we're learning a couple of things. it was about 43 minutes before the whole thing escalated. it was relatively calm up until the point that officers tried to place him under arrest and you saw it escalate very quickly. at the least, we have video of a couple of clips of body cam video. i was able to review it and tweeted out two clips that kind of show, almost notable turning points in this chronology. one was about 28 minutes in and that's when you saw mr. brooks

beginning to take a field sobriety test. again, the demeanor on both he and the officer who were talking with him was calm. you could see that, you know, at one point, hey, should i take off my shoes, hey, you can take off your shoes, that's your choice. that's the demeanor as he begins to take the field sobriety tests. that was 28 minutes in. the second one was 43 minutes in. that's where you hear the officer essentially say, you know what, i think you had too much to drink to be driving tonight. i'm going to put you under arrest. he moves to put his hands behind his back, try to handcuff him and he tries to get away. the other officer tries to hold him as well. and then, richard, it's remarkable how quickly that shifts from the beginning to the end of that, about 64 seconds or so. it goes from calm conversation to hearing gunshots at the end of that time period. it escalates very quickly. we know from the other angles of

video that there was a tussle and investigators saying you see him grab a taser, run, turn around appear to point that and officers respond to a gun fire. in that video, you hear what appear to sound like three gunshots. what seem to sound like three gunshots at that piece of video. >> blayne, in what you've been able to review here, one of the questions out there is what happened when rayshard brooks, when he was running, whether or not he was able to fire a taser or not. in the video do we see or hear anything that might indicate what that interaction may have been, potentially including that he did aim a taser at the officers, of course, then we understand that the officers shooting at him and killing him in any response, whether there was a taser or not. do we have any understanding --

>> really the answer comes from surveillance video, the video released by the georgia bureau of investigation coming from the parking lot. that's where you see him turn around and what appears to be him pointing. now, the gbi director, when he spoke said that was what happened. said that's what happened in the investigation. it does appear to show him turn around and aiming an object at investigators. that's the key piece of video to watch when you see the police respond to gunfire. >> right. blayne, you've been reporting on this. we're now able to show some of the video you've been able to review. new body camera footage obtained by nbc news. you see it right here. you'll see in this moment when officers attempted to handcuff rayshard brooks. it's about 48 minutes into -- and the scuffle ensues. the body camera falling to the

ground. maybe about this moment here. then at the end of the video, you can hear what appeared to be gunshots. we want to warn you, the video is disturbing. here we go. all right. blayne. we're able to show some of the video there that you were -- you've been able to review so far. we'll play a little bit again on the left-hand side. that's what you were describing, right? >> yes, absolutely that's what we were describing. that was about 43 minutes into that video.

>> can you hear me, richard in. >> i'm still here. that video that we saw was about 43 minutes into the video from the vantage point of one of the officers there. the other point i'll make, gbi director reynolds said what appears to have happen is mr. brooks turns around and points the taser at the officers. that's what he said during that news conference there. again, what appears to be in that video in the surveillance video as well. i really think that video is notable because it gives us context into the timing and also shows that -- in this clip is also shows the officers did search him and discovered that he was not armed. >> blayne alexander, thank you so much for your reporting tonight on this very topic. again, the new video coming in at nbc news and msnbc.

mark claxton still with us, jim cavanaugh still with us. to the control room, if we can play that video one more time and i want to get mark, as well as jim's response that we're able to show that video. >> i think you've had too much to drink to be driving. i'm going to place you under arrest. put your hands behind your back. >> stop fighting. stop fighting. you're going to get -- [ bleep ]. >> hands off the taser. hands off the taser.

>> what did you hear there? >> what i heard there is exactly what jim cavanaugh several minutes ago predicted we would who are, and that is routine, what should be observed, routine kind of police-style for an attempt to handcuff an individual, the mild resistance initially followed by more direct resistance and the question still remains. the question that the attorney posed early on, that jim has posed, that i'm posing. that is, why did you shoot this man? why did you kill this man? because nothing we have seen as of yet and i don't see how

anything can change this or additional video can change this, the most informed video from the wendy's parking lot, which -- the firing of the gunshot. nothing is going to change that. it's still as offensive and still as many questions as to why. why did you kill this man? it's just out of line, it's out of order. but the video is exactly as jim had predicted it would be. the situation, the snare joe that police officers have on a regular basis. nothing unusual. no need for this escalated level of force, physical force. there's nothing there that would justify the use of deadly physical force. >> jim, what did you learn from watching this? marcus agreeing with what you said earlier. what's going through the mind of an officer right now in that situation, whatever might be typical here? >> well, it was routine, a

routine interaction first. it took him 43 minutes talking with mr. brooks, as blayne skrie described and then they decided to arrest him because he was inebriated. what happens often is, mark's done it, i've donet every officer has. when you start to arrest people, and i can remember some of the fights i've had, i've got one handcuffed and it seems to be that the person decides at that point they want to resist and that's what mr. brooks did. but none of this justifies killing him. i mean, he resisted, but people resist. that's the way the world is. they can be taken into custody safely. the officers, everything they did there that we watched was okay until they shot him when he was running a wachlt the one

thing, i agree totally with mark, the most important video is from the high side video from wendy's. what i've seen in watching that so many times, i do believe that mr. brooks does deploy the taser right when he turns around from behind the red car. you can see the flash when he deploys the taser. what the officer does, if you watch it closely, he's running first with the taser in his right hand. you first see that on the dashcam video. the officer has his taser in his right hand, he's chasing mr. brooks with the taser, then down near the red car, the officer switches the taser to his left hand and reaches for his duty weapon with his right hand. then he drops the taser by the back of the red car. and when he's shooting mr. brooks. mr. brooks, i believe, does turn

and shoot the taser. still, it's no reason to use deadly force. you know what a taser does. you know how far away it is. it's unlikely it's going to incapacitate you. you see the flash on his taser. the officer, just before that, has changed hands with his taser from his right hand to his left. then with his right hand he draws his duty weapon, drops the taser and shoots mr. brooks. it's just a horrible, horrible situation. this young man should not be dead. he might have got away. got a block away, could have been apprehended. he should not be dead. it's just wrong. i think took swift action to fire him. gbi -- too much delay in justice in all these cases, just too much delay when proof is in

front of your face. they need to take action on these cases. i do not think that second officer did anything wrong if he did not fire his weapon, unless there's something else. he's on administrative duty. he's not responsible for the shots fired by the other officer. what we saw previously, richard, in the videos, we didn't see that other officer or either one of them doing anything wrong until they shot -- until the one officer shot mr. brooks. >> yeah, jim. for those joining us, garrett rolfe was fired, the officer that we did, we believe, shoot and kill, based on the reporting right now. this is alleged because this is still going through investigation as well as more details, potentially coming out. the killing of, again, rayshard brooks. so, for, mark, garrett rolfe was

fired. the second officer on administrative leave. erica shields has resigned. when you look at what you have called a dangerous instrument potentially being aimed by rayshard brooks at the officer, is there anything that would justify, you've also said, anything procedurally that might give a grace face in terms of what we saw, also getting the body cam video just in that we showed moments ago? >> no. it's no grace face here. the use of force continuum, if it applies here, it should be applied, it's clear, and the use of deadly physical force is not applied in this particular case. i don't know if atlanta does this, during the course of their training, actually. they actually deploy the tasers

on the trainees so they would have understanding about the impact and the effect of the tasers themselves. like i said, i don't -- i'm not that familiar with atlanta's training procedure. but there are some jurisdictions that that's part of the actual training by your colleagues to be tased. the taser is not a deadly instrument. it's a dangerous instrument, but not a deadly weapon, which is a distinction that we often use. there's no gray area here. it's pretty clear, straightforward. as indicated, it really shouldn't take that much effort and energy in these investigations to come to some sort of swift conclusion, at least the direction for the prosecution in this incident.

>> jim, you were mentioning earlier here, the dropping of the taser at the back of the red car and then the removal of the gun from the holster. what typically is, in training, the justification for doing that? >> well, the choice you use deadly force, somebody has fired a gun at you, you don't want to be holding a taser. you'll be holding that down as fast as you can. that's a hot skillet in your hand. the officer, first he switches hand and then drops the taser and draws his weapon. i think one of the big points, though, that's going to play here, is that the officer, when the taser -- when mr. brooks turned and fired the taser, it goes off like a report. the officer knew mr. brooks didn't have a gun. they searched him. he did not have a gun. they knew he had a taser.

i don't see how he's going to be able to not know that was a taser. why would he do this? >> right. >> we can say, you know, we can guess there's racial animus. we don't know. is he mad because he was in a fight. was he punched? was he just too excited? what was the reason? there is no reason to kill a man in a situation like this. it's a shame. this is a young man. he's 27 years old. i mean, it's really a shame. he made a bad choice, maybe, to fight with the officers. but not a choice that gives his life. it's a choice of an arrest. he should have been allowed to run across that parking lot and get arrested in the morning. it just is a sad, sad way. the police in america, we got to stop. >> a catastrophe by all

standards. >> rolling coverage here on msnbc. we have new video that came into us. nbc news reviewing it. now we want to show you some of that new video. it's basically new body camera footage obtained by nbc news. what you see, i just want to replay it again in case you're just joining us. it's the moment when the officers attempt today handcuff rayshard brooks about 40 minutes into their interaction with him. a scuffle ensuing in this video. the body camera falling to the ground at the end of that we'll show you and at the end of the video you hear what appear to be gunshots. we want to warn you of the video. >> i think you've had too much to drink to be driving. hands behind your back. put your hands behind your back.

stop fighting. stop fighting. you're going to get tased. you're going to get tased. hands off the taser. hands off the taser. hands off the taser. mark claxton with us. jim cavanaugh. what appear to be three shots. in that sequence of events, what stands out to you?

>> the more i see it, the more routine at least at that point. there's nothing significant or unusual to that interaction and nothing that a police officer shouldn't be prepared for or expected. i mean, it's just so bland and so routine that it makes it that much more egregious what happens afterwards. those are commands that you give. they're normal, routine commands. you have the full understanding that not everyone abides by the commands. i think too often police fail to realize that they are trained to handle certain situations. they are trained to perform under high stress and make clear-headed decisions. that's their training. oftentimes, civilians act emotionally, especially under the effects of a substance,

perhaps. those are all things that you have to take into account as a police officer when you're approaching or interacting with people. because you receive at first glance, training how to react in the most stressful of times, how to face the situation. they're the professional and they do. how to react instinctively. how to react -- you have to rely on your training to make sure they remain safe and you remain safe to get the job done. >> good point for civilians be that you make. for civilians, you look at that environment. it appears very high stress. for those who go through the academy, for those who are trained, for those who have years and you got to watch the live pictures out of atlanta,

georgia, 2:33 local time. we were watching what appeared to be tear gas, rubbing their eyes and grabbing their faces. what we've seen lately across the country in every single town in america it seems. jim, that academy experience, the years of experience, does it -- how does that work in terms much handling high stress situations that marq was describing. how does that help them? >> they should be able to handle a fight with a person resisting arrest that does not involve a weapon. it's a completely different scenario when you're an officer who is alone fighting with someone or there's two of you.

we used to say. in every fight you're in, there's you and at least one other person and there's a gun. it may be just the policeman's gun, but there's always a gun there. so it's you, another guy and a gun. so you can't let him get your gun in a fight. if you're alone in a fight, things can get really bad really fast. >> jim, i'm sorry to interrupt here. based on what you heard from the body cam video that we were able to play, is that consistent with the training, consistent with that what you are taught in the academy? >> yes. i thought everything they did was consistent and even to the point where you can clearly hear him saying hands off the taser. hands off the taser. both officers knew that mr. brooks was fighting for -- and trying to get their taser. they're looking right at him, they're yelling at him. they didn't rush the arrest. they were there for 43 minutes.

they gave him a sobriety check. everything they did was normal it's not out of the ordinary. so why do you lose your head and shoot him. you searched him. you know he's got a taser and might have shot it at you. you know how tasers work. just judgment, no judgment. you can't lose your judgment because you got in a fight. >> all right. marq claxton, in 30 seconds, as you're telling young officers how to handle such difficult, high-stress situations, what do you tell them? >> well, nowadays, what i have been telling them is that

there's extra scrutiny and there's extra requirements for professional police officers. you have to be of the highest standard level right now in this environment because there's so much scrutiny. understandably, justifiably. that's what i tell them. maintain your level of professionalism. look to expand and buy into the reform that's going on. >> marq claxton, director of the black -- >> thanks so much for both of your counsel here as we watch the pictures out of atlanta. stay with us if you can. we continue to watch the rolling news coverage on the killing of rayshard brooks. this as new body cam video came out as well as the firing of one of the officers and administrative leave for the second officer involved. in addition to that, the chief of police locally in atlanta

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maybe you should think again. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy. we know times are hard and we're here for you. find support at trelegy.com. we thought you can help ray bring hiwhat?s to school. kelly, do you know him? -he's a new friend. you ok? you know you can tell me. i'm ok. oh, i trained her in the car. she's not gonna break. [ laughing ] i'm ali velshi. this is msnbc. and we have breaking news out of atlanta, where we are covering the aftermath of the police killing of rayshard brooks, 27-year-old man, on friday night

in the parking lot of a wendy's. now, this is the scene right now. there are protesters gathered around the area in which brooks was killed, and there's a heavy police presence around there. the wendy's was set on fire, and the police have assembled at the entrance to a highway to ensure that the protesters don't go onto the highway and block traffic. this is the scene earlier with that wendy's fully engulfed in fire. that fire has now been put out. the developments are as follows. shortly after news of the shooting came out there was video that was taken by a bystander. and subsequently the police released the surveillance video from the wendy's parking lot two, angles of the shooting. that did result in the officer who is seen shooting mr. brooks being relieved of duty. he has been -- we believe he's been fired. another officer is on administrative leave.

there you see it. the officer closest to mr. brooks -- mr. brooks goes by the red car. the officer's there at the red car. that's the officer who shot at him. now, here's what happened. jim cavanaugh's still with me, and he has a very good description of this. i'm going to give you my description of it and then we're going to talk to jim about what it means from a policing standpoint. so i'm going to need the video that was taken by the bystander. this is the wendy's video. let's refer to the bystander video first. that is where we first learned that there's a scuffle between the police officers and mr. brooks. the phone call came in about a man who was asleep in his car. and tonight across america what a lot of people are wondering is how a man asleep in his car posing no threat to anyone except blocking the wendy's drive-thru, that may feel like a serious threat to someone but not something someone loses their life over, how that escalated into the man being dead while running away from cops. and i want to bring jim

cavanaugh in to explain because jim, while we know him as a special agent in charge of the atf, jim was a patrol officer many years ago and jim, to you a call for someone in a car, someone where they're not supposed to be was a relatively common call for you. tell me how this probably went down. >> likely it went down that maybe mr. brooks was inebriated. and so if he was operating the motor vehicle when he was ineven inebriated and they were talking with him, you know, at some point they might have decided to arrest him for driving while intoxicated. they could have asked him if he was inebriated to get in his car and drive away. the officers would not be allowed to let a inebriated man drive a vehicle. so what probably happened was he was inebriated, he smelled of alcohol, he had fallen asleep in

the drive-thru and they were going to arrest him for operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated. the motor vehicle does not have to be driving if you're sitting in the driver's seat and the engine is running. that is sufficient for a charge of driving while intoxicated. most likely that's what happened. they were going to arrest him for that. when they tried to arrest him he resisted. and if you watch the video, ali, first it appears he resists without violence, which is a misdemeanor. in other words, it's when you won't let the officers handcuff you -- it's kind of what you saw in mr. floyd's case when he was arrested in minneapolis at the original car. he's not resisting with violence. he's resisting without violence. he's not letting the officers handcuff him -- >> to be clear resisting without violence means you're not putting your hands behind your back the way they want you to put your hands behind your back. you're trying to not be restrained. >> yeah. you're argumentative, you're not complying, your arms are stiff,

every time you try to handcuff you pull away. it's a misdemeanor. now, resisting with violence is what this grew into when they were on the ground because mr. brooks does strike the officers. he throws haymakers at them. he clearly grabs their taser. there's a real struggle over the taser. and it appears that both officers know this is going on. they're looking right at the taser. he's pulling the taser. and he jumps up, he swings at them. you know, he's resisting them with violence. that's a felony. but then he runs away. so when he runs away, and you're in pursuit of him, there's no reason for deadly force. what happens when they get to the rear of the car, mr. brooks does turn and he fires the taser at the officer that's immediately behind him that shoots him must know it is the taser that he took. and the officer then drops his

taser, this is what the video appears to show, draws his weapon, his sidearm, and shoots mr. brooks. so that cannot be a justified use of force. the other officer doesn't appear to fire his gun that i can see in the video, and i didn't see anything that was done wrong in the struggle. remember, sometimes citizens see police arrests and they say there's excessive force and it is not. in other words, what was on the ground with those two officers and mr. brooks it was not excessive force. sometimes it looks awful but it is lawful. and the officers can use the amount of force necessary to make the arrest. they can punch you. it's not illegal or unlawful or excessive force for an officer to punch you if he's trying to get you to comply for an arrest. so force can be deployed. they can strike you with a baton in the leg. sometimes you have to. and it's worse when you're alone. it's even more difficult when the officer is alone.

but here they had two officers. their actions were i think in line with everything up until he shot mr. brooks. and then it was a clearly unjustified use of force. >> the fact that we can see the tasers is usually because the tasers are a different color. they're often a bright color so you can see it being carried in mr. brooks's hand. you can see the other officer seemed to have a taser in his hand as well. talk to me about tasers. the lawyer, chris stewart, for the brooks family says that what they're in court arguing the police used a taser on a victim the argument is always the taser's not lethal. it's not lethal. it's certainly not even damaging over a certain area. a certain distance. so in this case when he's got a taser running the other way he poses no danger to the police. >> right, ali. and you said it so clearly. what's key here is the totality of the circumstances. let me make it even easier for

all of us to understand. let's say it's not a taser, it's a police baton, a night stick, a long wooden stick. okay. a long wooden stick is a weapon that can kill you. if that weapon is waled on your head it can kill you or cause serious bodily harm. if mr. brooks had taken the baton from the officer and was running away just like he was with the taser, there would be no justification for an officer to shoot mr. brooks. that weapon is less lethal, like a taser. we call those less lethal weapons. but they can be lethal. they can be abused. now, how could an officer, you know, shoot justifiably a man that took his baton? well, look, if the officer was alone and they were fighting and the man took his baton and the man came at the officer and

started wailing on him, the officer would be more than justified to shoot him. i mean, you don't have to be killed with the baton or killed with the taser if you were alone and he was attacking you. that would be completely different. what we have here is a man who's running away with a less lethal weapon. we call less lethal. because it could be lethal. if it was deployed in the wrong manner. anything could be. a broken beer bottle can be if it's deployed in a certain way. >> right. >> but it's not necessarily a lethal weapon. and when somebody's running away with it, that really diminishes it. so like i say, the analogy would be a police baton. or if he had a metal pipe. what if he was running away with a metal pipe? could you shoot him in the back? no, you couldn't. now, if he stopped and attacked you and he was coming at you, i don't know anybody in the world who would want to be hit in the head with a metal pipe.

certainly, i wouldn't. and i would shoot him if he came at me with a metal pipe. and i think every officer would. but look what we've got here. a man running away. >> how do you avoid -- sorry, jim. how do you avoid -- when you get called to a scene, you're a police officer, you get called to a scene, two of you, there's a guy asleep in his car. you can make the assumption perhaps that he's intoxicated, right? because otherwise why is he -- or he's really tired. but it's a drive-thru. why is he asleep? at that point if you were following, if you were in a world that says how do i deescalate a situation that's not escalated, if he's asleep we don't have a violent situation on our hands. what approach can one be thinking of at that point to say got to not have this guy in this line where he is? what else can i do here that's not going to leave -- because i think in this scuffle when you're looking at the scuffle the one thing we have to give everybody in that scuffle is everybody seems to be scared for

their life in that moment. rayshard brooks looks scared for his life. he knows something's going to happen. he needs to get out of police custody very quickly. the officers i'm sure are not enjoying the fact that they're in a fight with this guy. what can happen to not get to this fight? >> well, you can try deescalation techniques with verbal communication with a person. and you know as a negotiator i always like to do that if i can. and it works sometimes. the problem is a lot of times if people are intoxicated they will just not comply with verbal commands. they will be argumentative. they will dismiss it. anything you say they will just not comply. and so at some point it's not a panacea. deescalation works sometimes and it should be tried. it's the best course, and i'm a believer in it. and i used it so many times in my 36 years.

i had it many times. but there's also people that just will not respond that way. they want to fight. they're intox kate or they're on a drug or they're just angry. and they're going to fight. and then you're going to get into one of these situations. but he should have just ran away. and more officers were called. and he was arrested a block away. that's why this is so sad. >> and given that they likely knew who he was or at least had his car or were able to have figured that out based on a car, we don't know know whether it was his car he was driving but they had enough information. if this guy goes into the wind, if he's not posing a threat to anyone because his initial situation was he was asleep and he ends up running away. i'm assuming modern policing can find this guy. >> yeah, and we have to make officers think differently. so what if he gets away? i mean, he's not a serial killer that's killing everybody in the city. he's a man who was in a car

asleep and may have been inebriated. if he gets away, the city is not in tremendous danger. so we've got to get the mindset of officers that maybe he'll get away. okay. you're not less of an officer. you didn't fail at your job. he got away. people get away. and we have to get to the mindset that that's -- it's not worth it for you to break leather, to draw a gun, to shoot a man like that. unless the man has a gun and you think he's going to kill people. you know, there are situations -- if people can be so dangerous that they have to be stopped getting away, there are cases like that. this one we just discussed in florida. you know, there are cases like that. but this is not one of them. and most cases are not. >> so that's the trick, jim. how -- in what part of the training does that become clear? the evaluation that yeah, okay, tried to arrest the guy, there's

a struggle, he's not interested in being arrested, but we're not sure that we have any evidence that this guy is some menace to society and he gets away. where does that come into the training, right? because that would i think to some people look like a failure, that i'm trying to arrest this guy, he's resisting arrest. now the objective becomes arrest him. then he runs away. the objective becomes stop him. as opposed to the all right, we didn't really know what this was in the first place, we've got a car here, we can figure out who this guy is, and if he turns out to be a bad apple we can find him. but i would imagine that if anybody's been watching the news for the last two weeks i would hope that the one thing the protests have achieved is some ability to have police give this a second thought. i want you to tell me how that naive that is on my part, to think that police can in the process of that interaction with mr. brooks at any time starting from the time that they

approached him while he was asleep in the car to the time that they -- there seems to be some dispute as to whether they attempted a sobriety test with him. to that tussle that we see on the video on the ground. to the wendy's surveillance video where we see him running away. at what point in that interaction can the police say we're not going down this road? >> well, we have to have a new mindset because what we're living in is a mindset of the '60s, policing in the '60s when we're living in 2020 with the digital age. let me give you an example of that. when i was a young officer, we'd stop a car, traffic violation, and we have the person who's given the ticket sign the ticket. it says clearly on the ticket it's not an admission of guilt. but a lot of people feel like it is and they do not want to sign the ticket. well, in most states, many states still, you have to then

arrest the person because they didn't sign the ticket. well, i have been in some awful fights with people because they wouldn't sign a ticket. and wanted to argue the ticket. where today we have digital cameras. i mean, the officer's camera's showing you the person who he is. why do we need his signature? we have his driver's license. we just wrote him a ticket. we have his license plate number. i mean, why are we forcing the person to sign the ticket? which then becomes an angst, a problem, where we now have to fight the person on the side of the road. so there's a lot of things like that. where is -- we have to inculcate in the police where is mr. brooks going to go? i mean, he's not going to go anywhere that far. he doesn't have a helicopter down the street that he's going to get on and fly to bimini or something. he's a man from the neighborhood. this is the scenario that's flummoxed me so much and caused

me so much agony in the case of walter scott in south carolina where he just ran from a traffic stop because he didn't pay his child support. and the officer murdered him and shot him in the back and planted a taser next to him. that was such an awful case. what if he ran away and you couldn't catch him? you know, okay, well, i wasn't the fastest runner when i was a policeman. i wasn't the fastest runner. i couldn't catch everybody. but i wasn't going to shoot you in the back. so you got away. well, who are you? you know what? next morning there might be two detectives at your house. and we had to police smart because we didn't have so many of the resources. we tried to police smart. catch the guy at the grocery store when he's coming out with a bag of groceries. he's not as likely to shoot you because he doesn't have a rifle

or a pistol and you can arrest him there. so we had to outsmart him there. and we have to get that mindset back into policing that these people can get away, unless some heinous crime is being committed. >> right. >> don't endanger anybody else. we saw there evolve in police car chases. >> growing up we used to see police chases all the time and people realized the cost-benefit analysis is not good on that. >> right. i mean, families would get killed in a collision when you're after the vehicle for traffic. a family gets wiped out. why is that a good decision? let it go. let it go. and sergeants were brought in. they had to make decisions on whether the chase could go on. and american policing has done much better on those cases over the years. well, the same has to happen in these arrest cases. and also many, many arrests

don't need to happen. they just don't need to happen. i mean, look at walter -- look at mr. floyd in minneapolis. i don't know how much counterfet money he had on him. i don't even know if he didn't have any, he might have had one $20 bill. he might have cashed it with no knowledge. we can do that with counterfeit money, you don't even know you have counterfeit money. he could have maybe been given a summons. and said you know, i took your counterfeit money out of your pocket and here's a summons, you've got to be in court in two weeks. mr. garner in new york city, he could have been given a summons, go to court in two weeks. some people won't appear and you'll have to come back and get them on a warrant. there's always a possibility of conflict.

but why are we making it street conflict? let the person come, in turn himself in. so you can reduce these cases by smart policing. you've got the guy on camera. give him a summons. don't force officers to arrest people who don't sign a ticket. give them more leeway that way. make it a little easier and smarter and don't force them to think they've got to catch everybody. give them more shoot/don't shoot training. and i think we'll see a whole lot of revamping in american policing. the citizens are demanding it. it's going to happen this time. i think it's going to make things better. but it's not going to be an easy road. >> this is -- i want to just check in with blayne alexander, who is following this for us. and she is trying to get more information in here including the extra videos. we have four extra videos now. so we've been watching two videos. one was somebody who was a bystander who took the video. the second one is the video from wendy's we're seeing in the parking lot that does show mr. brooks turning around and aiming that taser generally in the direction of the police officers

just before he is shot. blayne lets us know that there are now four more pieces of video. there are two dash cam videos and two body camera videos. they were on i suppose, blayne, but we don't know whether they show us anything useful. have you had a chance to get some sense of what other evidence there is in this case? >> reporter: i have. and they do. they do show us another vantage point of what happened. i was just scrubbing through one of the videos, watching one of the videos from the officers. what's interesting, ali, was the interactions were pretty calm for the first 25 minutes or so of the video. you see officers standing outside. mr. brooks is seated in his car. officers standing outside, kind of questioning, asking him things like what is he doing there, what's his night been like, how many drinks has he had. going back and forth like that. in a relatively calm demeanor for the better part of 20, 25 minutes. it's about 28 minutes into that body camera video that brooks

begins a sobriety test, a field sobriety test where you do the things like can you count, can you walk, those types of things. that goes on for a few minutes. and then a few minutes later, 43 minutes in, is where an officer says you know what, i think you've had too much to drink to be driving and starts to place him under arrest. and that is when the video escalates about 43 minutes in. that's when you see the struggle begin. and that's where it kind of goes into that eyewitness video that you've seen, you've seen previously, of the tussling on the ground. it certainly gives us a walk-up to exactly what happened. and again, like i said, very interesting that it was very calm until that moment of arrest. one thing i do want to report too, and i don't know if we have the photos, but we've also obtained from atlanta police department the pictures and more information and the names of the two officers who have been fired. so we've got two of their photographs.

and we've also learned that they've been on the force, one of them just a couple of years. one of the officers was hired in 2018. the other hired in 2013. one officer placed on administrative leave. he was the one who was hired in 2018. the other one who was terminated was hired in 2013. learning more information. atlanta police putting out more information about this throughout the night. ali? >> so the video that we are seeing now, which follows from the video that you were seeing of the tussle on the ground, we now know to be more than 40 minutes into the interaction between the police and mr. brooks. jim, let me ask you this. it's a point that was brought up by roland martin earlier tonight. it was brought up by jelani cobb earlier. it was brought up by marq claxton. and that is after having seen

george floyd's video or whatever other videos that you've watched in the last few years, there is a fear amongst some black men about what happens when they go into police custody. so there is an added element here when we're talking about deescalation of the fact that the act of arresting a black man for a non-violent crime has people worried. there may be some instinct there to run, to get away, to say -- i mean, i heard people telling me tonight and today, and i've heard this from others who exist in positions of prominence in society, to say that nothing feels like the feeling of about to be arrested if you're a black man. and the worry about what that means. how do we figure out how the police can have empathy for that perspective that says this guy wants to get away because he actually fears for his life? >> well, i don't even think you should be -- the first two weeks

of the police academy ought to be history. you ought to know the history of america. we could go up to a police officer for the most part and say, well, do you know who emmett till is? they don't know who those people are who sacrificed their lives in the civil rights era. do you know who reverend shuttlesworth was in birmingham? they bombed his church over and over, the klan. they don't know the history. they can't understand. now, you can't be that person and you can't be that person's race maybe but you have to understand the history so you can deal with the people you have to deal with in the community. so i think in the beginning the police forces need to do that. they need to take the people to the civil rights museums, around the country. alabama, memphis. washington. they need to understand this before they enter in the police service.

secondly, the states need to change some of the laws so officer can make these decisions. here is officers that did speak to mr. brooks for 45 minutes but then when they went to arrest him, which they probably couldn't have let him go because he was operating a motor vehicle and he was inebriated. he didn't want to go. but everything was right. done right. until they drew the gun and shot him. prior to that i didn't see anything wrong. >> jim, thank you for your help tonight. the news will continue here on msnbc. richard lui picks it up from here.

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of breaking news out of atlanta, georgia this evening on a very early morning. 1:00 a.m. eastern. for those of you joining us, we're covering the breaking news out of atlanta. a new flash point, the debate over police violence. this is what we know right now. the police officer involved in the shooting death of rayshard brooks has been fired as of this hour. we learned that within the last 60 minutes. another officer also has been put on administrative leave. a fire broke out tonight in the wendy's parking lot where police shot and killed mr. brooks. hours ago, atlanta's police chief resigned. earlier the attorney for the family rayshard brooks spoke about his death at the hands of police. >> you can't say you have other options. where was he going to go? he was barely jogging away. you could have boxed him in. support came in