put your hands behind your back for me. put your hands behind your back. >> the struggle ensues. he grabs a taser and runs away. does not use the taser on the police. he runs away. >> you cannot have it both ways. you can't say he ran off with a weapon that could kill somebody when you say it's not deadly. >> i do not believe that this was a justified use of deadly force and have called for the immediate termination of the officer. >> he had a thother options tha

shooting a man in the back. the one thing nobody disagrees with is that it shouldn't have happened. it's sunday, june 14th. i'm ali velshi. less than one week after the burial of george floyd another black man has been killed by a police officer after an alleged use of force. when is it going to stop? let's get you up to speed. protesters and mourners gather at the scene where rashard brooks was shot and killed in a wendy's parking lot in atlanta. protesters filled the streets in atlanta demanding justice. the wendy's fast food restaurant was set on fire. a heavy police presence remains in the area. last night the atlanta police

chief erica shields resigned and the officer involved in the shooting has been fired. i want to take you back to friday night. mr. brooks fell asleep at the wendy's drive-through when officers were called to the scene because a man was asleep in his car. the police interaction with brooks lasted nearly 30 minutes. it was entirely peaceful until officers tried to handcuff him for alleged being drunk behind the wheel in a car that was stop. brooks is technically resisting arrest. he grabs the officers taser and breaks free and he runs. he runs. now in this separate video you can see brooks fleeing. at some point the officer draws his gun and shoots brooks in the back. he later died at the hospital. as i mentioned the officer involved in the shooting hands fired. he joined the force in 2013.

we want to go back to some body cam video that was released by police. we must warn you the scenes you're about to see may be disturbing. >> i think you've had too much to drink to be driving. put your hands behind your back for me. put your hand behind your back. >> stop fighting. stop fighting. you're going to get tased. >> stop. you're going to get tased. >> hands off the taser. [ bleep ]. hands off the taser. >> stop fighting! >> [ bleep ].

>> stop! >> we begin with nbc news correspondent blaine alexander in atlanta. blaine, bring us up to speed. >> reporter: ali, good morning. to give you the lay of the land you see that wendy's behind me and people coming to take a look. what's notable is even as we stand here the morning after parts of this building are still smoldering. parts are still smoldering. through my mask i can smell the scent of smoke in the area. a tangible reminder of the unrest we saw on the streets of atlanta last night. you and i were speaking as we looked at the videos. a number of remarkable things in this case. one is that there are six different angles that show what unfolded that night that rashard brooks was killed.

we talk about the witness video, the surveillance video and body cam and dash cam video. now, as we look through the body camera video a couple things stood out. officers searched him and found he was unarmed. it wasn't until about 43 minutes into the video where things escalated. up through then it was a relative calm conversation. it was after he took field sobriety tests and they tried to put him under arrest we saw the escalation. what's going to happen going forward one police officer has been fired, another placed on administrative duty, the chief of police stepped down. there are three separate investigations going on. we have the gbi, the georgia bureau investigation taking over and a second investigation with the fulton county district

attorney's office. he said he's doing their own investigation to determine whether or not charges are appropriate. then we have an investigation taking place on behalf of the brooks' family. chris stewart an atlanta based attorney who works on civil rights issues is representing the family and they're conducting their own investigation. at least three different sets of eyes looking at this to find out what happened friday night. >> chris stewart will be joining us momentarily. the argument that they laid out last night was three fold. one this was initially a peaceful call to police. the second is he was running away when he was shot. the third is whenever they are in court defending against police using a taser, the argument is a taser is a nonlethal weapon.

the issue here with those six angles you discussed, the six dirc different pieces of video, for the moment the facts of the case don't seem to be in dispute. everybody seems to have a shared view of how it went down over that 43 minutes or so. >> reporter: on top of those six angles of video, there likely are other angles out there. there were a lot of witnesses there that night. we just see one eye witness video that's been released publicly. there are likely others out there. others have been questioned by investigato investigators. we could see more video trickle out. yes, there is -- i think this is part of the anger and frustration and the ire of the people that were in the streets saying, look, there wasn't anything violent about what he was doing.

police were called because he had fallen asleep blocking the drive-through. a lot of the frustration is there wasn't anything violent so why did it escalate. >> blaine, i want to thank you for your reporting overnight in trying to get the facts of this case so we could present it to our audience. blaine alexander will continue to report from atlanta. i want to play some of what the lawyer, chris stewart, said last night. he gave an impassioned plea, but also gave insight into a legal avenue they're likely to pursue in this case. >> in georgia a taser is not a deadly weapon. that's the law. that's what the cops are trained to do. it's not a deadly weapon. i've had cases where officers used tasers on victim and they

argue with us in court that tasers aren't deadly, that tasers aren't harmful. that's the case law here. you cannot have it both ways. you can't say he ran off with a weapon that could kill somebody when you say it's not deadly. where was he going to go? he was barely jogging away. you could have run him down. instead he got bullets in the back. a man that earlier that day was celebrating his daughter's 8th birthday at the arcade, who has three little girls who are 8, 2 and 1 and a stepson 13, who we sit with today and watch them play and laugh and be oblivious to the fact that their dad was murdered on camera. a scene that we keep repeating. >> joining me now l. chris

stewart who is the the attorney for the family of rashard brooks and the attorney of ahmed aubrey. last night you looked and said i'm tired. we're tired of doing this. it's the same conversation over and over again. >> yeah, i mean it seems like we're living in a circle. the last time you and i talked was walter scott five years ago when i was handling that case. it's just like walter scott. >> yes. chris, let's talk about what you said about the taser. this started off with a call of a man asleep in a car. this is where the misunderstanding between americans and police starts to happen. this was an instance that didn't need to end up with aggressive force.

in the end when mr. brooks was shot he was running away. in his hand he had a taser which the video indicates that in the chase he turned to use on the police at some distance. he's been killed. you have said when you have made the argument against police using tasers in court you're told the taser is a nonlethal weapon. why was the response to somebody running away from a police officer with a nonlethal weapon to have lethal force used? >> that's what's mind blowing. he was civil. he was smiling. he called him sir. it was a very polite exchange. they knew he wasn't armed. they had his license. they had his car. he could have run away and they could have caught him minutes later. there was no reason to shoot him in the back. even though they have the taser, i don't know if it was pride or they were upset it got taken from him. they're trained that's not a lethal weapon. you can't have it both ways.

>> chris, one of the things that i think americans are starting to understand after the video of george floyd, but maybe also walter scott and others, is that when an african-american man is under arrest by the police, there is -- i've heard this from so many of my guests who have been pulled over by police -- there tends to be a fear for their life. a lot of white people would say that's irrational. if you're doing nothing wrong, why not just get arrested? what a lot of my guests told me is that people do fear once they're in police custody they may not come out. >> ali, i'm one of the most well-known civil rights lawyers. if a police officer pulls behind me, i still get a shot of nervousness even though i know exactly what to do, i know that

nothing is going to happen. i get a shot of nervousness because i'm black and i'm going to get possibly pulled over and i don't know if that person wearing that badge sees me as a human being. >> your associate last night talked about the fact that the police needed to have -- police general need to have more empathy. he seemed to have some empathy for the police. he said police get scared in these instances and don't have the training necessary to deescalate, even though that's what we talk about, the 8 can't wait proposals. he said they're not trained to do that. >> yeah. i mean, the one thing i won't ever say is all police officers are bad or anything of that -- i can't go back on that because you've seen the cases i handled. the problem is situations like this where deescalation was the only answer.

officers shouldn't have to respond to calls like this, armed with guns. this should be responded to by a separate unit that deals with these instances where it doesn't go to violence. you know, the reports -- the initial reports when we talked -- when you talked last night, we had reports there were four pieces of video. we saw two of them -- in fact, six pieces of video. we saw the one from the wendy's, the one from the bystander. we know both officers had dash cams and body cams. is there anything different in your mind now based on what you had at your press coverage yesterday? >> yeah, we had -- there's video from other witnesses. we'll be turning over any video

we have to the district attorney's office. we want answers on why the shell casings were picked up. why did this have to happen? he looked like he passed both of the field tests. he wasn't slurring in the videos. he was polite. he explained he was at his daughter's birthday party. why not tell him uber home? that can save so many people in society. it can save the police officers. it can save the public. have empathy and let people go home. you don't always have to put cuffs on someone. >> the call was for a man sleeping in a car, not disorder disorderly, not causing probl s problems. the offense was he was blocking a drive-through at a wendy's. that didn't change. in fact, when they encountered him, we've got the video of

this, the interaction was entirely peaceful for a half hour, for over 20 minutes it was peaceful, until the attempt for an arrest was made, an attempt for an arrest that a lot of americans were saying why did that have to happen? >> yeah, to be honest if you look at the video, it looks like the first officer was going to let him leave, was going to let him sleep it off or go home until the second officer arrived, the one who shot him, and it seemed to get a little more intense and agitated. it shouldn't have happened for falling asleep. it's devastating. >> you know, one of the things we lose in all this -- i noticed you started with this this your press conference is who rashard

brooks was. he was a father. he had an 8, 2 and 1-year-old daughter. he was celebrating one of his daughter's birthdays yesterday. he was a family man. >> yes. he had a birthday for his 8-year-old. when we got to the house, she still had her birthday dress on. we played with his children and they were just oblivious. itself ju it's just tough, man. it's getting tiring. we just left playing with gianna floyd because we represent her in the minneapolis situation with george floyd. i just kept seeing her face and now his children's faces and when does it stop? it was a nonviolent situation. people can't say he was doing something crazy where he needed

to get shot or needed to get arrested. when does this stop? >> george floyd was a nonviolent situation. ahmed aubrey was a nonviolent situation. breonna taylor was a nonviolent situation. there's all these nonviolent situations where people are dying. >> i could go through the list of sadly my clients, lee barr's clients, ben crump's clients, all of them. they all end up dead from situations where words could have solved the situation. >> chris, what do you want to happen? you're going to pursue charges i assumement do you believe those lead to the systemic change? what's in the air now is systemic change about police and black people? >> it's got to be deeper than just charges. it has to be a mental change in

policing in that the first step is talking and trying to deescalate. of course, if it's a violent situation where a person has a gun or is going to harm someone, then you can take it to that level. other than that we have to try to talk through a lot of these situations where getting physical or trying to put somebody in handcuffs instead of talking to them, it leads to something like this. nobody wants to get arrested for something they didn't do or they didn't think they did it. just talk through it. if you can't talk through it and it goes to a different direction, we don't -- we immediately in policing jump to being physical. we see where that's ending up. >> chris stewart, i'm sorry that every time we talk it's about something like this. chris stewart is the attorney for rashard brooks and ahmed

aubrey. thank you for taking the time to talk to me. after the police informed shootings reform should be at the top of every elected leaders to do list. my next guest spent years working towards that goal. i'll get his thoughts on this matter. you're watching msnbc. virtually any place. so, when you get a check... you can deposit it from here. and you can see your transactions and check your balance from here. you can save for an emergency from here. or pay bills from here. so when someone asks you, "where's your bank?" you can tell them: here's my bank. or here's my bank. or, here's my bank. because if you download and use the chase mobile app, your bank is virtually any place. visit chase.com/mobile.

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continuing to take place calling for an end to systemic racism tom perez pending an op-ed in "u.s.a. today" calling out president trump and william barr for rolling back critical tools implemented during the obama era aiming at reforming broken police departments, in particular their unwillingness to use a full scale top to bottom review of a police department's record. its purpose is to root out abuse and maeisconduct to change it through court agreements. joining me now is tom perez. tom was the former labor secretary of the united states. tom, this is a tool that was used. it was not always effective, but the concept is that if a police department is seen to be

violating civil rights, which is t the example we seem to be seeing as a pattern, the federal government was able to get involved and talk about how they can approve under the supervision of a judge. >> that's exactly right. it grew out of the rodney king incident. prosecuting the officers involved in the lapd was an important part of justice, but it wasn't going to change the culture of the department. we needed more tools. then senator joe biden led the effort to get this pattern and practice tool. i prosecuted an lapd officer pre-rodney king. the lapd was a cesspool. it had a terrible culture. it took a decade to reach a consent decree. the lapd is not perfect, but that consent decree enabled a lot of reforms that made a big

difference. we use them -- in the obama administration we worked with a couple dozen police departments. i oversaw these consent decrees, these investigations. the community has a seat at the table, ali. that's so important. culture is what it's about. when you were talking to mr. stewart, the question we have to ask of all police departments, starting with minneapolis, what is it about the culture that is resulting in so many incidents? how is it that an officer can have 20 uses of force and there's no early warning system? how is it that you have police departments that don't look like the communities that they serve? how is it that the community doesn't have a seat at the table with the police department? that's what these pattern and practice investigations enable us to do. what angers me so much about the moment is that william barr is not only not using them, he's

affirmatively hostile to the use of this authority. this is the most important authority that congress has given the justice department in the last 30 years and they're not using it. that's shameful. >> from 2009 to 2012 while you were in the government, you opened 15 pattern or practice investigations. that was double the rate that the previous administration in the four years before had done. you reached ten agreements for comprehensive reform including seven consent decrees. i remember hearing a lot and talking a lot about consent decrees. some major police departments fell under consent decrees. what are they and why don't we see them anymore? >> i'll answer the second question first. we don't see them because jeff sessions and william barr said

we don't want them. jeff sessions tried to undo many consent decrees even though the city of baltimore which entered into one understood the need for it. that's the reason they're not using them. they're court enforceable agreements that hold the department accountable. let me give you one example. in portland, oregon we saw a spate of deadly force incidents involving people in mental health crisis. what we learned from our investigation, ali, was that the police needed more tools. we needed to have a community mental health infrastructure. we needed people who were specially trained in helping to deescalate these issues and these incidents so deadly force wasn't used. we put in place all these tools. i got a call about a year after that case was over from someone who said tom, we saved a life today because of these new

systems. if you don't get the police the tools to help them address these situations, then the only tool in the tool box is the hammer and everything will indeed look like a nail. it can be done. it's not easy. i'm not here to say this tool is a -- this tool has helped us save lives and help reform departments. we need to strengthen that tool by giving departments subpoena power and more resources. most importantly we need william barr and donald trump out of the white house. they have the old school philosophy. you're either with the community or you're with the police. that is so wrong. it's a false choice. >> tom, i know your people have got you on a meeting coming up. i have to let you go soon. i want to ask you how does this play out? there are a lot of people who say that people should have a seat at the table and police need to understand they are civil servants who work for the

people which is why the defund movement and why the abolish movement is gaining speed. that's not something democratic leaders are embracing. how do you square that? >> by working aggressively and boldly to make sure police departments are effective, respected and accountable. we've been able to do that in places like portland, places like new orleans and elsewhere. we need to give the police the tools to succeed. that's what joe biden wants to do. he's a big proponent of community policing so you understand the community. you're in partnership with the community. that's what community policing is about. that's what joe biden fought for and you give the justice department the tools that they need to reform police departments, root and branch.

that's what we're calling for. i have great sympathy for the frustration that people feel because i share that frustration. the vice president shares that frustration, ali. that's why he put forth a set of proposals that are bold, that will give us more tools. i think that's the way to do it. make sure we empower communities and the police with the tools that they need to deescalate, the tools they need to build trust. making sure police departments reflect the communities they serve. making sure they understand the culture of the department. make sure we have early warning systems. look at the main defendant in the minnesota case. look how many incidents he had. how could he still be a police officer? if you had early warning systems in place, you can prevent that. if you have mechanisms of accountable which we have helped

build, that's how you do that. it's not easy. i'm not saying it is. we must tackle this and make bold reforms. that's what the vice president is talking about. i agree as someone who spent over a decade doing a steady diet of police misconduct cases, we can make reforms. they are not easy. you can't do it when you have leadership like donald trump and william barr who hostile to the use of tools. they do a disservice, ali to good police officers. all they're doing is enabling bad police officers. that's not smart. >> tom, thank you for joining me. tom perez former labor secretary of the united states and former assistant attorney general for civil rights. thanks for taking time. this cultural moment goes beyond rayshard brooks, beyond

george floyd. racism is systemic. my next guest explains how one can be anti-racist. you're watching "velshi" on msnbc. msnbc. ♪all strength, ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait,♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat you can't always stop for a fingerstick.betes with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you don't have to.

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go to stamps.com/try and never go to the post office again! running away from the police officer, he don't have a gun. is there any reason for them to shoot him? no. >> stop killing us or war. we're tired of being peaceful. >> the tension in atlanta is palpable right now following the shooting of rayshard brooks. he was gunned down by an officer late friday night. he's the latest in a growing list of black americans dying at the hands of police. joining me now is the man who literally wrote the book on how

to not ber racist. he's joining boston university to launch the bu center for anti-racist research. he's a best selling author and his new book "anti-racist baby" has shot all the way to number one on the "new york times" hard cover list. thank you for being with us. i issued a commentary to say it's not enough to not ber rac t racist. you have to be anti-racist. if i'm not a racist, why should i be made to feel guilty of not being a racist. it belies the understanding of what that gives you. if you live a life not subject

to police brutality or inequity, you are benefitting from a system that punishes someone else. >> you are. unfortunately many americans like to imagine that there's this in between state, that there's this neutrality. the reality is that we have a system, we have a pervasiveness of racial inequity in this country. we have a is scenario where bla people are disproportionately dying of police brutality, we're disproportionately dying of covid-19. to do nothing in the face of that inequality is to allow that

racism. then you have people who are fighting against all these things and those of us fighting against it are being anti-racist. >> i've had people on twitter overnight saying he didn't need to resist arrest. he didn't need to run. he didn't need to do these things. when police arrested the charleston shooting suspect who shot up a number of black people in a church, they bought him a burger king hamburger. police don't necessarily have to use this kind of violence on someone who didn't perpetrate any of it. this guy was -- police were called on this gentleman on friday night because he was asleep at the wheel. >> yeah. i think what this comes down to is it's obvious that black people are disproportionately

dying of police violence. then the question becomes what is to blame. are black people to blame? should they need be resisting arrest? is there something wrong with black people or is there something wrong with american policing? is their racism in american policing? those americans who just refuse to recognize how persistent and pervasive racism is within this country -- the only other alternative is to blame black people, is to blame the person shot in the back the other night. >> talk to me about what the first step is other than buying your book, the first step is in learning the distinction between anti-racist and not being racist. america got a touch of this in the me too era. we learned it wasn't okay to

victimize women. in the same way how do those of us who are not racist become anti-racist? >> the heart beat of racism is denial. every american who's believing in expressing racist ideas, every american who is supporting racist policy makers and policies that are leading to racial inequities and injustices, they typically believe that their ideas, that their policy makers, that their policies are not racist in the way slave holders believed they were not racist. you have ku klux klansmen saying they're not racist. the first step is to admit one's own racist ideas.

to acknowledge the times we're being racist so we can transform ourselves and transform this country. >> it is our responsibility, all of ours, to understand this. if reading this book helps you do that, that's the first step. he's the author of the book "how to be anti-racist," his latest book hits book stores this week. a star from saturday night live says he received a knee in his neck while simply trying to exercise in los angeles. we'll have that next. los angele. we'll have that next everything's stuck in the drawers! i'm sorry! oh, jeez. hi. kelly clarkson. try wayfair! oh, ok. it's going to help you, with all of... this! yeah, here you go. thank you! oh, i like that one!

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in a post on instagram, "saturday night live" alum jay farrow said he was jogging in los angeles when police pulled up on him, guns drawn and an office pushed his knee into farrow's neck just like what happened to george floyd. the police say he matched the description of a black suspect in the area. here's some of what he had to say on the matter. >> i literally could have been george floyd. we as a country can't breathe anymore. we are tired. we are sick and we are tired of it. i can't breathe! i can't breathe! f at times, f at times, they may not be hydrated enough. wabba wabba!

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the mayors threw support behind the justice and policing act. there's a guide book for policing in america. the obama administration's task force laid out six pillars to curb police violence. four former task force implementers wrote about if these would have been implemented it would have prevented mr. floyd's death. mayor, thank you for joining me. >> great to be with you. >> mayor, one of the things we heard even when president obama, who took a clearing line on this than donald trump, or a more friendly public line, even when he spoke about this he pointed

out the majority of the work in terms of reforming policing when it comes to violence and use of force lies really with mayors, police chiefs, county executives, sheriffs and people like that. from the perspective of a mayor, how much of the problem we're dealing with is local and how much is federal? >> well, there's no question at the local level we have to adopt pillars of reform. in cincinnati we went through a similar killing of an individual 20 years ago, roger owensby. cincinnati has been on 20 years of systemic reform. the three major pillars are changing use of force policies and procedures, making deescalation the paradigm, second is transparency and accountability, third is

community-oriented policing in a way that builds trust within the community. >> can those things be learned and/or taught? there are a lot of things that are recommended that police can implement to reduce the risk of deadly force. some are policy and procedure. when we talk about community policing, how does a place like cincinnati achieve that? >> well, we're achieving it. it's a continuous improvement project. i'm not suggesting we're perfect. we have completely revamped over training over the last 20 years. we require understanding how to deal with somebody who is high or on drugs, how to deal with someone dealing with mental illness. we have bias training for officers. it's a major investment of time and resources to really change that culture. it's a work in progress.

i think it is working in cincinnati better than a lot of places. we still have room for improvement as well. >> one of the things i think is really big, it's complicated to talk about in little bits, implicit bias training. the idea we all come with bias and they can be unlearned. if you have bias and you have a gun, it can be deadly. that's expensive. when we talk about defunding police, these are the things that cost more. people who want to defund the police want less of the goodies that police forces like. this is the kind of thing that does cost some money. >> that's exactly right. if this country wants to make systemic reform, it's going to cost more money in training. we've invested millions of dollars in the last couple years in body worn cameras, very expensive, but worth every penny

because it brings transparency and accountability to police actions in a way that was unthinkable 15 years ago. all these things cost money. instead of thinking about defunding the police, it's time we reinstitute the social contract that has been fraying from the federal government who has taken a back step from helping on homelessness and health a mental health and addiction. those out reach workers are desperately needed and have been cut back over the last decades. that's where the state government and the federal government can refund and bring a comprehensive approach to community ills and public safety. >> mayor, thank you for being with us. mayor john cranley. in our next segment we discuss a

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you looked and said, not physically, but emotionally, you said i'm tired. we're tired of doing this. it's the same conversation over and over again. >> yeah, i mean, it seems like we're living in a circle. i think the last time you and i talked was walter scott five years ago