you looked and said, not physically, but emotionally, you said i'm tired. we're tired of doing this. it's the same conversation over and over again. >> yeah, i mean, it seems like we're living in a circle. i think the last time you and i talked was walter scott five years ago when i was handling

that case. that's what's mind blowing. the interaction, watching the body cam. he was civil. he was smiling. he called him sir. it was a polite exchange. they knew he wasn't armed. they had his license and his car. he could have just run away and they could have caught him minutes later. ali, i'm one of the most well-known civil rights lawyers and if a police officer pulls behind me i get a shot of nervousness even though i know what to do, i know that nothing is going to happen. i still get a shot of nervousness because i'm black. >> welcome back. i'm ali velshi. it's sunday, june 14th. la atlanta chief erica shields resigned yesterday following a shooting of an unarmed black man. video shows most of the footage.

27-year-old rayshard brooks was killed after two police officers responded to a report of a man sleeping in a vehicle in the wendy's drive-through. according to authorities brooks failed a field sobriety test. as police attempted to arrest him, authorities say he resisted during which brooks grabbed one of the officer's tasers. a taser is not considered a deadly weapon, a case made by police officers and prosecutors. brooks began to run away. according to authorities he turned around while being pursued and pointed the taser at an officer who took out his gun and fired several times. he later died during surgery. the officer who fired the fatal shot has been terminated. the other has been placed on

administrative duty. the police chief said he resigned in hopes to gain back trust. the frustration on the streets is palpable. >> running away from the police officer. he doesn't have a gun. is there any reason for them to shoot him? no. >> stop killing us or war. we're tired of being peaceful. >> this all reinforces how police reform is needed. in some parts of the country, they're taking the initiative. new york governor andrew cuomo signed a massive ten bill police reform package which includes a ban on chokeholds and also allows the public access to police officers' disciplinary records. louisvil louisville, kentucky has now banned no-knock warrants. on a more wide scale federal

level house democrats have put forth a major police reform bill aimed at preventing excessive use of force. joining me now iana presley of massachusetts. she's a member of the congressional black caucus. god good to see you. you were booked on the show before this happened. i did not expect to be talking to you about another black man dead at the hands of police. i cannot overstate this enough. the phone call was for a man asleep in his car. we see 25 minutes of peaceful interaction between him and police. it begs the question why are we calling police for these things? why are armed people responding? why did he need to be in handcuffs? when i grow up in toronto, when they pulled somebody over for

drinking they gave them a taxi chit to get home. why is this happening? >> to wake up to this news again -- yesterday there was a vigil in my community mourning the lives of two black transwomen. it just sapphire hose we're drinking from daily of insult and assault. black folks are gutted. we're exhausted. i think about my 11-year-old daughter and how i would like to pass along to her generational wisdom, wealth and joy instead of fear and trauma. we're gutted and exhausted. we're resolved. this is a tipping point. >> i want to ask you about something you said. i think it's something a lot of allies to the cause are struggling with. this is not a few bad apples.

this is a systemic problem. you said it means we have to be intentional, deliberate and unapologetic about calling out structural racism for what it is. it will call for us to legislate with an equity lens. it means examining our housing policies, our lending policies, our criminal system, our health care system and on and on. why is this such an important message for people to get? >> sure, ali. first and foremost the unrest we see in our streets has everything to do with the unrest black americans experience in their lives across every issue every day. disproportionate hurt and harm. black lives have been devalued since the inception of this country. from jim crow to red lining, there's a confluence of dra cone january laws.

this is put in a targeted way on black communities. the response must be one that is targeted and precise. if we say that black lives matter, that means justice for black lives matters. that's why i've introduced a bill to end qualified immunity created by the supreme court. these protections have allowed officers to engage in misconduct with brutally who have callus disregard for human life, black lives. there has been no justice. this is one way we become to be precise. what's happening in the streets is not just about police accountability. it's about every issue. if black lives matter, that means black business matters. that means that black scholars matter. that means that people -- black

business owners having contracts on the city level. across the board we have to be precise and specific. >> congresswoman, i work for a private company. you work for the public. police work for the tax payers. police serve at the mercy of tax payers. it's something for some reason police and their unions are having difficulty understanding. they are public servants. >> absolutely. what i would say about that is that we cannot allow the narrative of the defund movement to be corrupted. we're talking about the investment of community. there has been targeted hate, hurt and harm put on black communities. legislated. it's about the divestment in meeting the basic needs of community. i'm not new to this issue.

i served on the boston city council for eight years. it's why i voted down three budgets because i was not going to put more school police in our schools rather than school nurses. these are the sorts of unjust choices that are being made in municipalities and on the state level and on the federal level every day. black lives matter, that must be reflected in our policies, which is why we need to end qualified immunity. we need to make the save my street bill is included in the next relief bill. 40% of black businesses may not re-open post covid. we need to make these investments. our first responders they have a role to play in society. they don't need to be playing a role in every part of society. they don't want to be. why are they administering

arri narcan? we should be deploying mental health clinicians. why do we have school police? we should be investing in school nursing, social workers, therapists. we know what works and what will ensure that black folks are not just surviving, they're thriving. we don't fund it. this is about that. this is about funding and investing in our communities. >> yep. i remind you there are some people who have trouble saying black lives matter, never mind putting into action all the r e various aspects of it. we have some road to go. congresswoman, thank you for your work on this front. congresswoman presley is a democrat from massachusetts. coming up the common slogan, defund the police might sound

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it has happened again. on friday night atlanta police shot a black man in a wendy's parking lot, a man sleeping in his car and unarmed. the excessive and deadly force used by these officers requires us to take a deeper look at our policing systems. you may have called on funds deg the police. i want to take a moment and understand what defunding actually means. defunding does not mean no police force. it does not mean we abolish the police so in an emergency we're left with no one to call. it means reallocating funds. our police departments right now respond to incidents ranging from homelessness to rapes and murders and school shootings and

everything in between. police take ten hours of mental health, sexual assault and hate crime traeniining. they're the first responders to those calls, calls that might be better received by people with training. defunding doesn't mean getting rid of good police. it means we reshape their roles and training. reallocating resources to social services isn't a one side fits all solution. a small suburb may not need what a big city means. it means we can reinvest in housing, mental health care, addiction treatment and hospitals. feeling safe in our communities does not require a highly combative aggressive or militarized police force. in dallas after a spate of

incidents, the city started a program designed to respond with mental health experts. the program has been highly successful. programs in california dealing with social services in schools rather than police showed that not only can these reallocated responsibilities work, but they can work hand in hand with police departments. police are public servants. police deserve unions, but not to protect them when they fail in their mission. we should not be pouring millions of tax payer dollars into policing systems that are discriminatory to large portions of our population. we should be working to better our communities and address issues. reallocating funds will allow us to tackle the problems we face and allow us to feel safer in our communities. o feel safer in our communities. in my line of work,

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overnight after police shot and killed another unarmed black man. rayshard brooks was in a wendy's parking lot on friday night. some of these images may be disturbing. >> put your hands behind your back for me. put your hands behind your back. >> rayshard brooks was asleep in his car when officers approached him. after a struggle he broke free running away with an officer's taser. as he was running away from police, he turned and aimed the taser at them. one officer shot him in the back. the officer who fired the shot has been terminated. atlanta's chief of police erica shields, a two-decade veteran,

also resigned. this event comes amid a fire storm of protests calling for police reform sparked by the death of george floyd. states and cities have begun looking at ways to reform police systems. democrats in conduct have come out with a sweeping reform bill. joining me now is deb holland, she's vice chair of the lgbtq plus equity caucus. good morning, representative holland. good to see you. thank you for being with us. i want to ask you about what the federal government can do, what you in congress are proposing and the reason i'm asking is how much of the problem we're witnessing now on a weekly basis and african-americans have been dealing with daily can be dealt with by congress? >> thank you, ali. thanks for having me. the first thing i would like to

say is that black lives matter. this is so disturbing to watch that video and to know we just went through this. we just went through this. look, i was in d.c. this past week so that i could support my colleagues on the justice and policing act. this police officer who murdered mr. brooks has been fired. the justice and policing act, for example, would prevent him from going right over to another police department, getting a job without his record following him. part of that legislative package calls for transparency in police conduct and that is imperative. of course we just need for this to absolutely stop. >> congresswoman, i want to

point out your background. you're on the armed services committee. your father was a marine veteran. your mother is a navy veteran. you are calling along with other representatives for having police departments return military equipment, to demilitarize the police. while we're talking about defunding and making police more community oriented, one thing is people are calling for is the demill thatry sags of the police. >> absolutely, ali. i'm grateful that hank johnson co-respon co-sponsored my bill with me. mr. johnson wants to get rid of the 1033 program altogether, the program that transfers that equipment to police departments.

we want police departments who have that equipment to return it in exchange for funding and programs that would help train them on how to handle situations like this. when there is an individual running away from you, your life is not in danger. there's no need for deadly force. we want police departments to return their equipment, their military equipment. get the training that they need. the federal government would fund that training so that issues like this, incidents like this that are completely unnecessary cease to happen. we have got to stop killing our black family and friends on the streets of our cities. this absolutely has to stop. look, ali, i look at this issue of black lives being murdered on our streets by police similarly

that i look at the issue i'm working on which is missing and murdered indigenous women. we're going to have to take a hard look because this has been happening for hundreds of years. violence of black people have been happening since the first slave ship came here. it's not going to be remedied with one piece of legislation. it's going to take a concerted effort by all of us to untangle this deep-seated issue and find ways to remedy it. >> congresswoman, you're one of two first nations indigenous women elected to congress. you understand this issue from a different perspective. the thing you just mentioned, the examination of the role of slavery and racism on policing

is a necessary process that a lot of people don't think actually plays into it. you are very clear on the fact that our history plays a role in how we police people of color in this country. unless people understand that we can't solve this problem. >> that's absolutely right, ali. look, every single person living in this country has an obligation to know what our history is because we keep repeating it. the genocide -- our country was founded on the genocide of indians. shortly after that slave ships came over here and have continued the violence against black people. black lives matter. we have to stop this killing. we need to find ways of helping individuals to feel safe on our streets. look, falling asleep in a car

is -- it's not a crime. it is -- that's a little bit of an inconvenience, right? it could have easily been remedied without the violence perpetrated against this man, this father who was at his daughter's birthday party for heaven's sake. we need to find better ways to find solutions to these issues and absolutely our history plays a role in how we are going to deal with the legislation that we need to pass. i think we've gotten a good start, the justice and policing act is something we absolutely need to take care of and i will -- i'll fight for that. i will continue to keep my eyes open and move towards passing the legislation that we need. >> representative holland,

always an honor to talk you. make sure to tune in this evening for a special hosted by joy reed, american crisis, poverty and the pandemic. joy will speak with farmers, meat packers about how they've been affected by covid-19. tonight 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. another american city in turmoil over the police killing of a black man. there has going to be a safer way to police. we'll talk about those options. balance from here. and pay bills from here. because your bank isn't just one place. it's virtually any place you are. just download and use the chase mobile app. visit chase.com/mobile. that liberty mutual customizes your insurance, i just love hitting the open road and telling people so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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the city's major interstate last night bringing the city to a stand still after an officer shot rayshard brooks the night before. the atlanta chief of police stepped down and the officer in the incident hands fired after the atlanta mayor called for his termination. listen to this. >> while there may be debate as to whether this was an appropriate use of deadly force, i firmly believe that there is a clear distinction between what you can do and what you should do. i do not believe that this was a justified use of deadly force and have called for the immediate termination of the

officer. >> the incident comes amid ongoing protests over police brutality and excessive force, an issue that has plagued black communities for years. a study shows that police in the united states are nearly four times more likely to use force against black people than white people. protesters have called for a reallocation of funds in favor of social services causing further tension between civilian and law enforcement. the protests in the united states have sparked a worldwide movement centered on racism. with me now is the senior columnist at "the intercept." someone like me who has grown up outside of this country and seen other examples of policing, i

was saying in canada if you were pulled over for drinking, if people were found at a low level of intoxication, but such that the police didn't want them to drive, they would give them a taxi voucher to go home. last night a man was in his car, he was sleeping while black. >> yes. rayshard brooks, in atlanta, it's astonishing that such situations can escalate especially when it comes to black men. the traffic stops in this country, it's mad. it's the number one most common interaction between americans and the police is at a traffic stop. we've seen how many black people have died because of that. you shouldn't be killed because you have a broken taillight.

i think that's one easy fix right now that people should be pushing for. take away traffic stops away from nonpolice. give it to a nonpolice agency which isn't armed and tainted by racism. that's an easy first step. it's generally this escalation of violence by police officers in this country. america is a very violent society and you have police officers who behave in violent ways and reach for deadly force more often than their counter parts across the world. in the u.s. police officers kill an average of three people every day. that's as many people as killed in a year in europe. in the uk a year. in the u.s. it's a day. three times as many as in canada, ali. >> you heard my conversation with deb holland about the

militarization of police. we gave the police military style equipment after 9/11. in ferguson the police force was unprepared to deal with protesters because they met them as military. i saw it in minneapolis. i see it all over the place. donald trump wants to bring the military in. you grew up in the united kingdom where police didn't have a gun. violence was not the likely or initial response by police even to violent incidents. >> indeed. you know the uk and the u.s. are treated as very similar countries within the western world. they have similar political cultures and yet massive difference when it comes to policing. you said some police officers. the vast majority, like 90 to 95% of british police officers are unarmed. let me be very clear for british

viewers. i'm not saying british police don't have a problem with institutional racism. they do. there's racist stop and search policing in the uk as well. there are controversial shooting in the uk from time to time. there were riots in london after a black man was shot by police. the scale is on a different level. it's a different ballpark. as i mentioned earlier, the number who have died, there's no comparison. there's a difference in philosophy in the uk, new zeala zealand, ireland and norway. there are inspectors general that investigate police officers. every police shooting in the uk is subject to an inquiry.

in the u.s. a supreme court ruling says a police officer can open fire if it's objectively reasonable they're under threat. they have to have a perception of a threat that's reasonable. in europe, an officer can only use deadly force if it's absolutely necessary. the bar is much higher in places like the uk and france and germany. >> manny, what's the distinction we've been seeing recently in the idea we have unions -- i'm often on the show with union leaders. i generally ask quite supportive of unions. police unions seem to be a bit of the problem here in the u.s. >> all the evidence that has been en massing and people are talking about it, is the fact that police unions have acted as a block on police reform. there's been a lot of studies about how police forces tend to

be demographically diverse, but the union leadership is not. we saw that in that almost hilarious comical video out of new york where the union leader was losing his mind and screaming on camera in front of an almost all white crowd in new york. there's issues of diversity and the block of reform. in uk it's not that there aren't police unions, but it's a more centralized structure. the u.s. has a lot of smaller police forces. you think at a local level you could exercise more oversight. it's not true. if the federal government was more involved in oversight as it was under president obama, then

you would have a much better outcome. a lot of these police unions are resistant to reform, resistant to training methods and oversitoversit oversight. that's a huge problem when it comes to shootings. >> let's discuss this. is the answer better training or implicit bias training or deescalati deescalation training or is it get some of the things out of the hand of police that they're not trained to do? if they get ten hours of training in mental health or sexual assault, that's not enough training. should there be another group of people that are the first point of contact in calls you call 911 for? >> yes, without a shadow of a doubt. we've had the reform debate. we tried it. it's failed. reform has not worked.

if you had any other group who have failed so miserable, caused so much violence and death, we would be talking about a complete overhaul if not dismantling? last night you interviewed the chair of the national black police association. she talked about when you call the police for mental health issues, domestic violence, somebody sleeping in their car, it doesn't have to be armed men showing up. you could take away vast chunks of what the police do. 90% of the beat cop's day doesn't involve violence. i mentioned traffic stops. there's no reason tens of thousands of people need to be

ha handled by arm men. by the way, we need to throw gun control into the conversation. there's a reason why british police officers are unarmed, it's because most of the criminals are unarmed. there's far too many weapons in this country. >> manny, good to see you. thank you for joining me. this friday's juneteenth holiday will be as poignant as ever. why this event has a new found significance. you're watching "velshi" on msnbc. msnbc. ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat and people you can rely on. i'm a dell technologies advisor. me too. me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you.

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president trump bowed to public pressure on friday rescheduling his covid come back rally for june 20th. it was originally scheduled to coincide with the holiday juneteenth which marks the end of slavery. slavery actually ended earlier,

but it was the date on which the union general announced the end of slavery in galveston, texas. texas a remote part of the confederacy where the news was late to come. it was really the end of slavery. now the president asked oklahoma republican senator james langford on advice. langford said the president asked him if it was more respectful to change the date and langford said yes. here's what trump told fox news before he changed the date. >> your rally in oklahoma is set for june 19th. was that on purpose? >> no, but i know exactly what you're going to say. >> i'm just asking. i've not going anything to say. >> think about it as a celebration. my rally's a celebration. in the history of politics, i think i can say, there's never been any group or any person that's had rallies like i do. i go and say get me the biggest

stadium and we fill it up every time. >> doesn't answer the question, does it? the campaign chose to hold the event in tulsa, the sight site tulsa massacre that some have called the single worst racial incident of all time in america. at least 300 people, black people were killed in the riots. that's in the only upcoming event that falls on an important anniversary. now the rnc has moved the convention to florida and hundreds of kkk groups attacked a group of black activists in jacksonville. for the president are these subtle dog whistles or do they need a black important dates considered sent to them.

nicole, look, these are asides to the bigger problems at hand including the ongoing debate of the removal of the confederate statues or the renaming of bases. he said he won't do it, there are mainly those in the south or southeast named after confederate generals. you have been quite prolific on twitter about reminding people this wasn't about state's rights or about south fighting for southern rights. it didn't include african-americans. it didn't include blacks in the south, all those confederates who are fighting for their own rights. >> yeah. i mean, i was just tweeting this morning that the lost cause myth is one of the most profitable in history. american segments of americans, north and south, have come to believe that the civil war wasn't fought over slavery, that when you have someone like jeff sessions tweeting that honoring

the confederate soldiers is honoring those who fought for the way of life in if south, well, there were 4 million black people in the south and they were not fighting for the confederacy or to maintain themselves in slavery. so we need to be honest about what we're honoring with these bases, military base, which is even more ironic because you're honoring the bases of american soldiers with the names of people who are traitors and who took up americans against american soldiers. that's because these confederate namings were named to show black people their place, to subordinate black people and that's what they have done. >> on march 21, 1961, alexander stevens gave the cornerstone speech in georgia, in which he explained that the confederacy, the cornerstone of this confederacy was slavery. so this lost cause myth nonsense i'll call it is revisionist

history about the fact that everybody who fought in the confederate cause new what they were doing. they were rebels against the united states of america. so when donald trump talks about the fact that that is hallowed grounds and he can't rename those bases, the ground is -- nobody is talking about getting rid of the bases. they're talking about renaming them against -- after actual american heroes not people who fought against america. >> exactly. i mean, i've said this a couple of times now. you can't imagine that we would honor general santa ana at the alamo or honor the japanese at pearl harbor but that's what we have done with the confederate monuments. we have honored those who took up arms against the united states, who lost the war, over actual americans who were fighting to preserve the union and some of them fighting to end slavery. this is a conscious choice and the difference between, you know, there were other enslavers, for instance, george

washington. but we don't honor washington because of slavery. we honor george washington because he was the first president. when you honor someone like general lee or, you know, at ft.hood or bragg, we honor them because they fought to preserve slavery. why is that acceptable? >> you have written a piece in which you won a pulitzer for the 1619 project. i find it relevant today because what people are having to understand is that we do not enjoy freedom today if any of us do not. my freedom to not be accosted and arrested by the police and possibly killed is not real if it's not shared by everyone else in this country. >> absolutely. our faith as americans are

intertwined. when certain segments of our population do not enjoy the full rights of citizenship that threatens the right of all of us. white americans who have joined black protesters and peacefully protesting have seen their rights violated by police, wonton violence used against them. now white americans see that they too can experience that. so i think that is critical for us to -- too long we have felt this was the issue of the small group of people. it doesn't really impact me but it always does. unfortunately, black american's role from the moment we landed in this country has been resisting and trying to make this country live up to the founding ideals and we're still having to play that role today. >> these protests indicate there may be progress though. in fact, i was covering protests in minneapolis and chicago and new york and i saw most of the

arrests taking place and the majority for peaceful protests were actually a lot of white people who said this is our joint destiny. if it's not fulfilled for all of us it's not fulfilled for any of us. thank you. wow, that's it for me. thanks for watching. my colleague ayman mohyeldin is filling in for joy reid next. my filling in for joy reid next ke due to afib... ...not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm reaching for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. what's next? i'm on board. don't stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding.

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while there may be debate as to whether this was an appropriate use of deadly force, i firmly believe that there is a clear distinction between what you can do and what you should do. i do not believe that this was a justified use of deadly force and have called for the immediate termination of the officer. >> good sunday morning, everyone. welcome to "a.m. joy." i'm ayman mohyeldin in for my colleague, joy reid. one atlanta police officer has been fired, another suspended and the chief of the police department has resigned over the shooting of an unarmed black man, rayshard brooks. the police said they were initially called to the wendy's parking lot where a car was blocking the drive-thru lane. brooks was sleeping inside according to police. what happened is still under investigation but it ended with an officer