while there may be debate as to whether this was an appropriate use of deadly force, i firmly believe that there is a clear distinction between what you can do and what you should do. i do not believe that this was a justified use of deadly force and have called for the immediate termination of the officer. >> good sunday morning, everyone. welcome to "a.m. joy." i'm ayman mohyeldin in for my colleague, joy reid. one atlanta police officer has been fired, another suspended and the chief of the police department has resigned over the shooting of an unarmed black man, rayshard brooks. the police said they were initially called to the wendy's parking lot where a car was blocking the drive-thru lane. brooks was sleeping inside according to police. what happened is still under investigation but it ended with an officer shooting brooks and

killing him. officials released body cam footage from the scene. i'm going to play you the beginning of the scuffle between the officers and brooks when they tried to arrest him for driving under the influence. some may find the video disturbing. >> i had about 1 1/2 drinks. >> do you remember what's in the drinks? >> no, sir. >> i think you have had too much to drink to be driving. put your hands behind your back. put your hands behind your back. >> hey, stop. stop fighting. stop fighting. you're going to get tased. stop, you're going to get tased. [ bleep ]. you're going to get tased. >> all right. you can hear one of the officers on that video say that brooks grabbed his taser. and then, according to surveillance video released by the georgia bureau of investigations which is again

disturbing, brooks ran. officials say brooks fired at the officers as he ran away and then one of the officers shot brooks and killed him. garrett rolfe has been fired and the other officer on the scene, devin brosnan has been placed on administrative duty. the wendy's was set on fire. firefighters say no one was inside at the time. an attorney for brooks said his taking of the taser was not justification for the officers to shoot and kill him. >> in georgia, a taser is not a deadly weapon. that's the law. that's what the cops are trained to do. it's not a deadly weapon. you can't say he ran off with a weapon that can kill somebody when it's not deadly. >> all right.

so brooks was the father to three young daughters and a stepson. joining me now is justin miller, an attorney representing the family of rayshard brooks. thank you so much for joining us this morning. let me first start off by asking you have we learned through your contacts either with law enforcement or eyewitnesses any new details since that press conference you gave yesterday evening? >> no, the only thing we have learned different was that there was a discussion and we got to hear a little bit of the discussion between mr. brooks and the officer. but pretty much the information that everyone has is the same information that we have right now. >> do you know how long the encounter lasted for where police were actually speaking to mr. brooks from the moment they arrived on the scene until his fatal shooting or at least that attempted arrest? >> we're not sure right now. we think it was a pretty long time because they had to get him out of the car, have that discussion can him, ask about him the field sobriety stuff and

then everything you saw on tape happened. so we're not sure of the exact number of minutes but it was a pretty long time. >> i saw yesterday the press conference that you and the colleagues had. we all sense the frustration that you guys -- you know, demonstrated and expressed but what does justice and accountability look like for the family of rayshard brooks? >> i think that's a hard question. because this is the question we get in all of these and we have had several. i mean, what is justice when three young ladies lose their father? i mean, i don't think that you can really have justice. i think that what we're trying to do is make sure that, you know, there aren't other young ladies who lose their father or young boys who lose theirs. i think change is one of the biggest things and we'll help effectuate that change.

that's one thing. the officers that -- there need -- this one is little different because there needs to be a full investigation. we need to find out what happened too. and what we saw on tape was not good. we didn't like that. but there are two sides to every story and we'd like to hear what these officers have to say as well. but full justice is hard in this one. >> let me pick up on that very quickly because you want to find out both sides of the story. let's talk about where you want to see the investigation going. what are the pressing questions that as a lawyer have not been answered for you right now in this incident? >> right. so there are different parts to that incident, you know? there's one part where they asked him about his sobriety. we want to find out why did they ask him. did they have the right to come on private property and speak to him about his sobriety. you know, he wasn't driving drunk. he was driving his vehicle. we don't know if the keys were in the car, if the car was on.

he could have been in the car just sitting there sleeping which we believe that he was. so coming to somebody in a parking spot to ask them about their sobriety is a little bit of an overreach in our estimation. we want to find out when the tussle occurred, what was the officers' state of mind? were they in fear for their own safety, their life? we wanted to find out when he started to run what was the officers' state of mind then? why didn't they call for backup or call for a helicopter? why didn't they, you know, let the other officers come, box him in and then arrest him? he wasn't a physical, imminent threat to anyone so we don't understand why they had to effectuate the arrest in that manner. >> as this investigation plays out and as lawyers representing the family do you have confidence in the authorities in

georgia to investigate this accurately and fairly, given what we have seen from the atlanta police department over the past couple of weeks? >> that's a tricky question. so generally, yes. i personally have faith in law enforcement. that faith has been shaken some given just what i do and what i see on a daily basis. people writing false things in reports and then a video comes out and we see something totally different. we'd like as many eyes on this as much as possible. the law enforcement in georgia, we want to see what they say. we want to see what the federal government has to say as well. the more people looking at this thing and surrounding it from all sides, that gives us a better picture of what happened and where we need to go with it. >> all right, mr. miller stay with me for one second. i want to bring in another guest, joining us now is now the

cofounder and ceo at the center for policing equity. mr. goff, good to have you with us. let me get your information, when you watch that police video, when we heard the press conference and the comments from mr. miller, what is your initial reaction to this police shooting? >> so i think mr. miller is exactly right, there's some stuff here that we need to know. this is not as straightforward as some of the other issues but there's one thing to keep our focus on. you have a man asleep or passed out in the car and the response was armed and now he's dead. the original issue was that people were going to have a hard time getting their wendy's food. i understand that there's clearly violently resisting arrest -- i mean, i work with law enforcement every day. i don't want to see police officers hurt. i don't want to see them unable to go home to their families but you had a sleeping man who's

dead and he was the father of three little girls. so part of this is going to be kind of -- it's going to be a legal issue. we'll look and see what's permitted by law. what is allowed within self-defense. but this is part of the reason why we have seen hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in the streets of the united states for the past three weeks plus in the middle of the pandemic is because the whole structure of this, the context of this interaction is not what we think we should be having when it comes to public safety. this is someone who is dead, who didn't need to be dead and i hope that we keep that at the center of the conversation. >> what is the type of interaction as somebody who fights on the front lines for police reform, what is the type of interaction you would have wanted to see play out in a situation like that? >> so there's a number of different options. in terms of how you respond here.

so there are some fast food restaurants as i see in the twitter feed that have a policy where two people go out and they don't intervene past that, unless the person doesn't move. some people call a tow truck. some won't tow a person in the car. sometimes you call law enforcement. on the other end of that though if you have someone running away with a nonlethal device, the response to that might be an incredible scolding. it might be a couple of -- punches to the kidney but the result of that shouldn't be a death sentence summarily issued in the parking lot. when i talk to the law enforcement folks who i talk to every day, who are looking at this video, they're saying, you know, even if you thought the person took your gun you check, right? you want to make sure and you get cover. because the person getting away without their car they're going

to get caught. there are tactics that are available to law enforcement that don't result in death and there are options that happen before law enforcement intervenes that don't bring a badge and gun to the situation. all of that needs to be explored. all of that needs to be more broadly available across the streets of the united states. >> mr. miller, let me ask you a point that you touched upon yesterday in the news conference with your colleagues, which is the police officers they did not shoot mr. brooks in the middle of the fight while they were tussling on the floor, while he appeared to be punching back or resisting arrest. they shot him when he was running away from them. i think that's revealing. >> i think that has a lot to do with what you saw before he started running. clearly he got away from them. they didn't want him to. whatever was going through his

mind. so we think a lot of that is ego. when you're a police officer and someone does that to you, that's a man-to-man physical thing. you know? so those officers probably felt, you know, very bad and felt like they needed to get him back or, you know, which oar not going to let him get away with this which is an emotional response to a job, a professional job that you can't have that type of an emotional response when you have someone's life and death in your hands. >> just to be clear, do you know in the state of georgia, obviously you would know this better than i would, is it -- i mean, obviously to resist arrest that's not a legal use of force or deadly force to be more specific. is it permissible by law that if somebody resists an arrest that they be shot? >> no. it's not permissible. use of force, there's a continuum and resisting arrest is not on there. if the officer is fearing for their life or the safety of

their life or of someone else through deadly force, then they have the right to use that force and we would never say they shouldn't. they have a very, very difficult job. but if someone is running away from you, all right, getting away, attempting to flee, he doesn't have a knife or something that can kill someone else, i mean, where in that do you see where the officer should say, you know what? it's good i should shoot in guy in the back and possibly kill him. we're trying to make it make sense now. >> let me get your reaction to erika shields, she resigned after this incident came to light. for more than two decades i have served alongside some of the best people in the police department. i offer to step aside as the police chief and mayor bottoms has my support. i have faith in the mayor and

it's time for the city to move forward and build trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve. mr. goff, how much of this sits -- not the specific incident, but this sits on the feet of this police chief who's resigned? >> it's difficult if you can't hold a police chief accountable for culture, or anyone, but i know from working with law enforcement across the united states and internationally is that it's often not within a police chief's command. it's not within their ability to handle the culture when you have civil service regulations and you have got unions that are so powerful. the average tenure of a major city chief in the united states is 2 1/2 years that means unless you're found adjudicated liable for an egregious situation you're on the way out.

that's a difficult standard to hold the police chief to. i'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but i'm saying give the progressive police chiefs to better align the department with whom they're protecting the. >> what does the data say about policing against the black people in this country compared to crime rates reveal for us? what is the data? i want you to set the record straight for the viewers. >> yeah. so let's be really, really clear. the question that you're asking is a form of a question i get all of the time, especially on social media. >> exactly. yeah. >> well, what about black on black crime? there are two versions of that question. one version is a bad faith, racist dog whistle that means i think black people deserve to die. that should be ignored or called out for what it is. you think we deserve to die. just say it. but that's not the only version of that question. there's another version of that

question which is just a statistically skeptical version or a reasonable person says, okay, if crime is happening in the neighborhood shouldn't we want police to go into the neighborhood more and shouldn't that drive police behavior and that's reasonable. you will be heartened to know that social science has to account for crime in the analysis of bias. and the numbers are pretty clear on this. crime and poverty even brought together are not sufficient to explain racial disparities in police stops or police use of force that is to say that's not the only story. it is some of the story for sure. but it's not the only story. police behavior and police policies are part of what's leading to the large disparities that we see. that's just not controversial among thor is -- >> that's why i wanted you to answer. people are thinking that. so thank you for setting the

record straight on that. justin miller, thank you for joining us. you have a standing invite to come back whenever you have your questions in the investigation answered. thank you for your time this morning, sir. >> thank you. we'll have a lot more on this after the break. stay with us. ak stay with us usaa was made for right now. and right now, is a time for action. so, for a second time we're giving members a credit on their auto insurance. because it's the right thing to do. we're also giving payment relief options to eligible members so they can take care of things like groceries

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what it boils down to is, black, white, hispanic, whatever you are, are you not tired of seeing cases like this happen? we see from the protesters, we see from the people in the streets of all races now that people are sick of watching black men murdered. >> in the wake of public outrage following george floyd's death, the fatal shooting of another man has called for an overhaul of the policing system.

rayshard brooks' death has had a few ramifications as we said erika shields is stepping down and the officer who killed him has been fired and the other on administrative duty. how likely that they'll be charged? back with me is philip atiba goff and legal analyst paul butler, author of "chokehold." paul, straight to you. the different situations between what we're seeing with the rayshard brooks case versus the george floyd case. obviously, probably centers around that physical altercation where he resisted an arrest when the officer said i'm going to arrest you. then he attempted to flee. is that in of itself enough to change the dynamic of the case? >> no. the police are only allowed to kill to save a life.

when mr. -- mr. brooks was running away with the stun gun, he posed no deadly threat to his officers. their use of deadly force, their killing him, was cowardly and it was criminal. >> judith, the comparisons are obviously going to be this was yet another unarmed black man, but as i was saying to mr. butler there, the difference is going to be in that interaction which according to some came after several minutes of the police trying to speak to mr. brooks. what it is you want to learn about that interaction that could have possibly justified him wanting to leave the scene or fleeing the scene because he might have felt, you know what, he's also being threatened by the police. >> well, here's the problem that we have. black people in this country fear the police. and so we saw in mckinney, texas, for example, that video where a young man drove through a stop sign allegedly and then

drove to his grandmother's house for protection. and he got out of the car and he put his body down on the ground. so right now we should know that people do not trust the police. it's been like that for quite some time and so we didn't see a de-escalation. in fact, one of the things that we need to consider is that these -- this officer actually shot at him like walter scott and this is in the middle of a parking lot where they endangered the lives of others. they have decided they were going to hunt him down and that they were going to have retribution for the scuffle that they had had. so, you know, we're at a point in time where you would think that the police are learning something from what's going on and that is not happening. >> mr. goff, let's talk about the reaction so far from the police department.

the firing of one officer, administrative duty for the other and the police chief resigning. is this enough s this the right way to respond after an incident like this or is it enough in the first few days following a shooting like this? >> so whether or not it's enough is going to be up to the people of atlanta. and i pray that their voices are going to get heard and that the decisions being made for the most vulnerable communities are being made by the most vulnerable communities. whether this is the right decision we'll find out and the people of atlanta will tell us. i can tell you that most of the time a chief loses their job when there's a change in administration or when the crime rate goes up or there's a bad shoot. we don't hold law enforcement executives accountable to our values long term and in part because we haven't measured those set of things. but i will say as we try to figure out what the right steps are after another and another after and another one of these shootings, it will be really

important for us to stop trying to figure out whether or not a shooting is justified and put a lot more energy trying to imagine how we stop it from happening in the first place. >> how do you think that is -- how do you think we go about doing that as a society? >> so i think you're hearing it. we have been hearing it from people in the streets for the last three weeks. people are talking about we need to put the resources back in the communities so they don't have to call the police what the first place. right? like i have lived in suburban neighborhoods, i have friends who come from neighborhoods where their parents were asleep drunk in cars blocking the driveway. and nobody calls the cops. you call the tow truck, knock on the door, you push the car. you know, you find the other set of keys, there are other ways to manage this. and when you have the resources of mental health and substance abuse, when you have good schools and good grocery stores and fresh vegetables when you have the things in the community that prevent you from calling the cop in the first place, everybody is safer.

nobody especially the police want you to rely on the community where you have to rely on them where you can't be safe. yet, the conversations sparking out in part because of deliberate misunderstanding of the demands of protesters, without the police we can't be safe. how is it working in the community that have plenty of money and the communities where they're not calling the police all the time? right? we imagine we -- we stereotype the inner cities which is code for where black people live, they can't exist unless they're in the cages, whether they're on the streets or in jails in prison. we have to stop that entirely. when we do that, we hamper the ability for all of us to realize. >> judith, that's an important point brought up there. when we think of the current debate about defunding the police it's become this bipolar conversation about either no police or complete anarchy and that has people coming down on

this side of the argument one way or the other. in -- you know, in an unconstructive way for what we're trying to achieve as a so it. give us a sense of genuine police reform and defunding the police that does not mean letting the country becoming lal unarmed black people. >> sure. no one wants anarchy in our country. what we're calling for is defund because we need to reprioritize. we spend over $100 billion a year on law enforcement in this country. and what we're saying is instead of talking about community policing, i think atlanta would say they have policing and new york. instead of saying let's give them more money for training instead let's take away some of the money and let's put it into social workers, let's put it

into violence interrupters. let's put it into more schools. we continue to find money for police at the same time that we have been closing schools. we have shut down public hospitals. we have taken money away from affordable housing so that we have a homelessness problem in this country. and so we're talking about refunding that money. we directing that money into things that would make communities safer, safe from the police. but also safe and free in a different kind of way. so we can do it, but we have to have the public will. one of the things we should be paying attention to and congress needs to pay attention to this and the democrats need to pay attention to this, what are the people in the streets demanding? it's not just black people. we have white allies who are by our side saying defund the police because we see that we have to re-imagine safety for all of us.

>> yeah. my experience of covering some of the protests, certainly in philadelphia, it was multigenerational, multiracial. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. paul butler, there was a statement that says my office has launched the intense independent investigation of the incident. members were on the scene shortly after the shooting and we have been in investigative sessions ever since to identify all of the facts and circumstances surrounding this incident. give me your legal take on where an investigation like this goes? what are some of the fundamental questions that you need answered to determine the course of action as a district attorney? >> was the shooting justified. again, mr. brooks faced no deathly threat and so he was not allowed under the law to kill someone in response. at the end of the day, this is about culture, this is about a

warrior mentality in among the atlanta police department. the georgia naacp president said we're done dying that's only going to be true if police departments are not just reformed but transformed. >> all right. philip, you're back with us next hour. thanks to judith brown. coming up, donald trump ramps up another photo-op. stay with us. ump ramps up another photo-op stay with us when you think of a bank, you think of people in a place. but when you have the chase mobile app, your bank can be virtually any place.

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all right. so it did take not long for donald trump to turn the commencement speech at west point to turn it into a campaign rally full of pomp and circumstance. >> the cadets are becoming officers in the most exceptional army to take the field of battle. i'm here to offer america's salute. thank you for answering your nation's call. >> so of course the video makes no mention of the fact that he

was criticized for forcing the cadets to return for an in-person graduation ceremony despite concerns about coronavirus. or that he has been roundly criticized by many respected military leaders for his response to the protests in the wake of george floyd's death. and now we are learning the truth about the protests that were cleared out in lafayette park for his infamous bible photo-op earlier this month. the secret service admitted that at least one of the secret service agents had used tear gas despite the denials from those in d.c. up next, trump's latest attempt to roll back the obama legacy. to roll back the obama legacy. ut actually was. dust mite droppings! eeeeeww! dead skin cells! gross! so now, i grab my swiffer sweeper and heavy-duty dusters. duster extends to three feet to get all that gross stuff gotcha! and for that nasty dust on my floors, my sweeper's on it. the textured cloths grab and hold dirt and hair

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transhealth is public health. we want to make sure that trans folks receive the same health care as anyone who is cis gender would receive. we need to really ensure we're putting pressure on the elected officials to hold this administration accountable. >> all right. so the very same week that the people of wheeling, west virginia, took a major step forward by electing rosemary kitchen to the city council, making her the first openly transgendered official in the state it seems like the country

took a staggering step backwards on the fourth anniversary of the pulse nightclub shooting. the trump administration announced the rollback of obama area health care protections for the transgender people. joining me is jennifer levi from glaad. there's a new glaad lawsuit testing the reversal of health care protections under the affordable care act. walk us through the legal challenge that glaad is making. >> absolutely. yeah, so the case in federal court right now is discrimination suit against a transgender man who is being denied coverage for the basic

health care needs. the provision under the football care act that says you can't target individuals for sex discrimination. it is a basic claim that the affordable care act requires employers and health care plans to provide for transgender people's basic needs. >> with the announcement in the week that president trump made several announcements on days that are supposed to be solemn and not lost on minority groups, whether it's the juneteenth or the massacre in florida, and now you have this announcement coming on the anniversary of the pulse night club disaster. >> i speak for myself when i say this, but trump is a small man, whose name does not deserve to

be uttered in the same breath as the people i love and lost that night. four years ago, my best friend was dying in the emergency room from ten gunshot wounds he sustained in the club. his partner never made it off the dance club that night so for me june 10th is the anniversary they had to call both of their families to them their children might not be coming home. that they were touting an assault as we march four years is grotesque but totally unsurprising to me. this is who donald trump is and it's who he always has been. the cruelty is not a side show, not a coincidence, the cruelty is the point. donald trump knows exactly what he's doing. his administration knew what day it was. it's up to us to determine what happens next. >> jennifer, we know that the community has been under attack really over the past couple of years. but we have seen an alarming trend just in the last week

alone. i want to put this up on the screen, two black trans women were killed as trump revokes protections for those people of color. they're disproportionately affected by the intersections of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia according to an hrc report. this is a very dangerous time for trans people in america. >> yeah. absolutely. you know, we are experiencing a tragedy of violence against black and brown people including transgender black and brown people and dominique fells, rhea melton, tony mcdade. it's so important to recognize the importance of protecting people's lives and what the trump administration has done this week by the reversal of the

hhs rule that protects transgender people in health care has been to strike out, to deny, the provision of those most basic needs. we see this administration targeting health care and even shelter coming up as well in proposed rules by hud. it's a tragedy and we have to, absolutely, stand up and make sure that we have the tools to protect such a vulnerable community. >> let me point up on the point that jennifer raised in terms of standing up. what does standing up look like this to administration? folks that are watching this at home that want to help, what can they do in the middle of this national discussion that's taking place about so many injustices in our country? >> well, i think it's a great question because, you know, it's important to remember that, again, this is a pattern of operation by the trump administration. they consistently target marginalized populations. remember, this is a president

who called mexicans rapists. it's a president who instituted a muslim ban. gave transgender service members a pink slip. has argued in favor of workplace discrimination against lgbtq people, teargassed protesters for a photo-op. tossed trans people out of homeless shelters so this is what the administration does. our response has to be to work around them so first and foremost, people should pressure their members of congress to support nondiscrimination protects. that means senators like mine, marco rubio, who used pulse as a prop for his re-election bid need to support the community and folks should think of supporting equality for florida who protect the people in their own states and not wait for neil gorsuch or kavanaugh to green light it. if we wait on a state or

national level, then we'll lose. >> brandon wolf, jennifer levi, thank you for your insights. we'll have more "a.m. joy" right after the break. stay with us. more "a.m. joy" rt after the break. stay with us when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz xr, a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. it can reduce pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections like tb; don't start xeljanz if you have an infection. taking a higher than recommended dose of xeljanz for ra can increase risk of death. serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened. as have tears in the stomach or intestines, serious allergic reactions, and changes in lab results. tell your doctor if you've been somewhere fungal infections are common, or if you've had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. don't let another morning go by

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this virus is testing all of us. and it's testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. so abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. there's a legitimacy to this anger, to this outrage. a man was murdered because he was asleep in a drive-thru. we know that this is not an isolated occurrence. we also know that a man taking a taser from a police officer in

pennsylvania resisted in an arrest. because he is black, it resulted in his death. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." another police shooting death in atlanta. this one also of another black american, adding to the outrage by people around the country who two weeks ago began protests to demand justice for george floyd. overnight, the atlanta police department released video showing some of the interaction leading up to the fatal shooting of 27-year-old rayshard brooks many on friday night after the police were called to a wendy's because brooks was asleep in the dri drive-thru. body cam video shows a struggle. some of the video is disturbing. >> i had one and a half drinks. >> you don't remember? >> i don't. >> i think you have had too much to be driving.

put your hands behind your back. >> stop fighting. stop fighting. you are going to get tased. stop. you are going to get tased. >> police say brooks grabbed one of the tasers. video shows brooks running away and police say he fired the taser at the officers as he ran. at that point, one of the police officers shot him. he was taken to the hospital where he died after undergoing surgery. the police chief has resigned. the officer who fired the fatal shot was terminated. another officer involved in the shooting is on administrative leave. back with me is phillip goff. joining the discussion is mydwin and brittany.

all star panel to make sense of this. jonathan, let me get your reaction. this is shooting of another unarmed black man. we know he is unarmed because his lawyer was with us in the last hour saying he did not have a gun, he did not have a knife. he had a taser which according to law enforcement and law in georgia is not considered a deadly weapon. >> to be perfectly honest, when you were showing the video of the body cam and hearing them tussle, i took my earpiece out. when you narrated the rest of the video with him running through the parking lot, i continued looking away. i can no longer listen to or watch black people in this case an african-american man being killed by law enforcement.

i am thankful that we have video. i am thankful we had video for the killing of ahmad arbery. we had video for the murder of george floyd. and in a certain way i'm thankful that we have this video here. but the idea that this is something new, i wish the american people would understand this is something that african-americans have been talking about, yelling about, screaming about, protesting about for generations. for me personally, really, since the killing of walter scott in south carolina, i can no longer listen to the anguish, the pain, the killing of yet another

african-american who, depending on the circumstances, was just living while black. you fill in the activity. that's what they were doing. it has made it really painful in the last few -- the last few months to just be, to just exist, for the fear that i might rub a karen the wrong way or i might rub a law enforcement somebody the wrong way. i live in washington, d.c., that probably has more law enforcement officials than any jurisdiction in the country, given washington, d.c.'s metropolitan area, but also the federal law enforcement that's around here. that is no way to live. so i hope that yet another video of an unarmed african-american man getting killed by police

will add to what looks to be a pivot point in the conversation in this country about what is means to be black, what it means to be african-american and just to try to live your daily life unmolested. >> i want to give all of our panelists a chance to express what they feel. mydwin, give me your reaction to what you have seen and what we are witnessing right now in the wake of another killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of police. >> what i think we are witnessing is yet again more and more killing of black and brown bodies. frankly, like jonathan said, i am tired of seeing it. i only watched the video for once. that's my rule now. i, too, refuse to be traumatized by these videos. i refuse to allow them to become the norm. and i refuse to allow myself to

did he desensitized by these videos. it has gotten to the point where they are replayed over and over and over again. what i think people tend to forget by these videos is that someone is actually dieing. three girls lost their father. a son -- i believe he also had a stepson. for something that was just not even a serious, serious crime. i will tell you as an attorney, one of the things that's important here is accountability. what i saw in that video was a crime being committed by that police officer. that police officer murdered that man just as we saw derek chauvin murder george floyd. we keep seeing police officers murder black people on video. and they are not held accountable. they are rarely arrested. they are rarely charged. they are rarely prosecuted. when they are, they are either found not guilty or it's a hung jury. when they are found guilty, the sentences are minor. this has to stop.

the laws are already on the books. we don't need to create new laws. i know we have had a week of legislatures throughout the country coming up with laws to basically tell police officers to stop killing black people. i don't understand why we need so many additional laws on the books when we have murder, we have manslaughter already on the books in just about every jurisdiction in the united states of america. that's how i feel about it. >> brittany, let me get your perspective. you and i have spoken so many times over the last couple weeks following so many different tragedies. is this one different in any context whatsoever in the wake of what we have seen over the past several weeks in this country? >> i don't know that it matters that it's different circumstantially. because the root of the problem remains the same. every single time this happens, we go directly into the details

of this case and that case. here are things true. black and brown people continue to be disrespected by a country that was built on their backs. black and brown people continue to be hunted when we are trying to be at rest. let us remember that rayshard brooks was not the first black person to be called -- to have the police call on him while he was sleeping. we have seen that at yale university. he is not the first black person to be killed by police while he was sleeping. we know that that happened to breonna taylor three months ago. there are still no arrests in her case. we know that a 7-year-old was asleep next to her grandmother in detroit, michigan, several years ago and was shot by a s.w.a.t. team. we can talk about the details of this all day long. the truth of the matter is, why do we need to go through every gory detail and see every gory video in order for america to finally believe what black people have been saying since we have been in this country for

401 years? our humanity is sacred and it should be respected as such. the truth of the matter is the fact it takes video and protests and property engagement and worldwide grief in order for people simply to pay attention and for us to maybe, maybe get an indictment, is an indictment on the system. the fact that it takes all of this for some brands to finally decide that they're going to put up an instagram post about possibly not being racist and not even beginning to think about anti-racist, the entire system is indicted. what we are hearing people say is they don't care about each detail of every case or how many videos there are to see. what we are hearing people say is that enough is enough, we have been saying this since we have been here and that the entire system is rotten at the root. what we will not abide is consistent, incremental changes. the only thing we will abide is the full transformation of systems immediately, because we have to stop dieing.

>> very powerful words there. phillip, i will take a line from her comments there, an indictment against the system. what is the indictment against the american system of policing from where you see it, from the academic point of view? >> i'm going to take the point of being here on zoom privileged to not answer the am decademic perspective and push back on the premise of the question. i don't think she's talking about an indictment of the policing system. i think she's talking about an indictment of the country. i see a nod. >> i surely am. >> this is not just about policing. >> fair enough. >> if this were just about policing, then we could do some reforms. we could manage the unions. we could -- a lot of training would help. there's policies we could put into place. that's not what you are hearing.

what you are hearing is there are systems put into place to weaponize white fear of black men. it doesn't get weaponized as detention. it gets weaponized as assault and homicide. the system is being indicted is the fact that there is no amount of evidence that can be brought to bear without me having it to be online, in journals, at conferences, talking to people about whether there's racial bias in law enforcement against black people. i gave congressional testimony in september. gave it twice with a very loud face. second time i gave it, i wrote it down. i have the benefit of a friend and colleague who did a review. a review of the 50 most cited works of police racial bias. there's one -- one of those 50 that finds just anti-white bias. one. we are looking at climate change. we say that out of 100 of the top studies, 98 are dead certain

that it's human beings causing climate change. that's the same ratio. we have consensus on science and people need video evidence. when there's video evidence, people want to talk about whether or not it might have been justified based on this particular criminal code. i am exhausted from conversations about justifying homicide when we are not having conversations about how we create systems that save life. we do that in white communities. we built societies that are able to do that. we have privatized wealth, social services, policing so that folks feel comfortable in their homes and neighborhoods. we can do that. we have been doing that for hundreds of years. now i need a signed affidavit, two people doing it, three camera angles and some new policies to say that killing me when i was asleep -- that's something we shouldn't do. i'm exhausted from having the

conversation. i'm interested in the consensus that we have got from the scientific community and black folks and everybody coming to where we are. we have been here for a while. it's time to start moving from this position, not the position of ignorance and misunderstanding. >> jonathan y, you alluded to something. i used the word karen. explain to us what that means. there's a direct correlation between the kind of viral videos that we are seeing of white people calling the cops on black people, whether it's in the park or stencilling something on their own property, to the death of black people at the hands of police. what is that line in your eyes? >> the perfect karen for anyone who really wants to understand what that is, amy cooper in central park. threatening christian cooper, no relation, to call the cops. said right to his face, i'm going to call the police and say there's an african-american man

threatening me in the park, and then she dials 911 and does it. she knows exactly what she's doing. she knows what the impact of that would be. because we have seen it happen. people call the cops on black people. the cops get there. then lord only knows what happens. it could be perfectly fine. or it could go all the way to the person being killed. if you want to know what a karen is, amy cooper is a karen. i think her name is lisa alexander in san francisco, you were alluding to that, the guy stencilling black lives matter on his own property and she comes up to him and questions him about why he is doing what he is doing. then has the nerve to say to him that she knows the people personally who live in the apartment. then he tells her, go call the cops. call the cops. these are the sorts of things

that drive us bananas. if you want to understand the impact of all of these non-lethal viral videos have on african-americans, there's a video i saw yesterday on twitter. it breaks my heart. i hope i don't start crying as i talk about it. a 6-year-old girl is walking in the park with her mother, african-americans. police officer approaches them with the intention of saying hi. the little girl freaks out. starts crying and puts her hands up. that's what this country has done to african-americans. that 6-year-old should be able to walk in the park with her mother and not be afraid and certainly not be afraid of the police. that's exactly what's happening. when you see the police officer, you can see her heart is broken to see what her presence in a policeman's uniform has done to

that child. it was a female police officer. for all of those who are trying to understand whether this is a real thing or if african-americans are overreacting in terms of the impact of watching all these videos and seeing the news about all these black people being killed by police for a whole host of reasons and issues, take a look at what that 6-year-old girl -- she's 6 years old and has her life ahead of her. and she's already afraid of her country. we should be ashamed of that. we should do something about it. now. >> brittany, what do we do about it now to prevent young girls like that from being terrorized in their own country at the hands of the police just at the sight of seeing them? >> we do everything about it. we stop making excuses for all the reasons why we can't. we stop telling people that the word de-fund scares them. we stop telling people -- we

stop allowing people to tell us that the word divestment scares them, when america has been divesting from black people for a long time. we make sure that the response is commensurate with the harm. black people built this country. black people gave you your capitalism because we were your first capital. black people gave you everything in this country that you love and so much more. the fact that our humanity cannot even be respected while we are laying asleep is a sin. that is the only word for it. it is a sin. it's an absolute violation of every moral code and every religious law and every human law that there is. the only possible change, the only things that will work are the full transformation of systems, the full investments in our communities that we deserve and the full changes that are actually reflective of the fact that we are dieing. we are not impatient. we are not wrong. we are not unreasonable. we are dieing.

your responses, your government responses, the things that mayors and governors and presidents decide to do, if it doesn't match the fact that we are dieing, then it's not enough. you need to start over. >> let me play for you a sound bite from stacey abrams where she was asked about de-funding the police. watch this. >> what does de-funding the police mean to you? and is it necessary? >> i think we're being drawn into this false choice idea. the reality is we need two things. we need reformation of how police officers do their jobs. how law enforcement does its job. what happened yesterday to rayshard brooks was a function of excessive force and the decision that the fact that they were either embarrassed or panicked led them to murder a man who they knew only had a taser in his hand. >> do you think that we are looking at this in a false choice? even members of the media are framing the debate incorrectly.

we're not above criticism. if you think that we are asking the wrong questions about this debate right now in this country, give me your thoughts. are we guilty of the way we are framing this conversation? >> i think we are. at the end of the day, like brittany said and everybody else on this panel, black people are dieing. so we need to come to terms with that in this country. something needs to be done about it. if we're going to talk about de-funding the police, abolishing the police, then so be it. if those phrases scare people, i do want to remind you that there was a time when black lives matter scared people. there was a time when just the phrase black lives matter was radical. can you imagine that? that my life matters freaks people out, just the phrase. that's where we were a few years ago. that's not where we are today. the idea of the phrase

de-funding the police or abolishing the police, if it scares people, so what? you know what scares people? particularly black people. the police. why? as jonathan explained, that 6-year-old girl saw a police officer and she freaked out. i have to tell you, i'm an attorney and when i see a police squad car, i freak out, too. the numbers are there. the video is there. i think as a country, we have to sort of refrain from this idea that we are scared to talk about things. no one is scared to talk about de-funding schools. no one is scared to talk about de-funding a whole host of social programs, mental illness programs, no one is scared to talk about de-funding programs that provide services for the homeless. if we can de-fund those things and have been doing so for decades in this country and no one bats an eyelash, we should be talking about de-funding the police. what we have seen in the last two weeks are police officers in

g.i. joe gear, the latest fashions in g.i. joe gear running up and down in military tanks when our doctors and nurses had to fit themselves with garbage bags to deal with the pandemic. when we talk about de-funding the police, that's precisely what we are talking about. that's what we're talking about. we cannot rely on the police to solve every single problem in america. if someone is asleep in their car, call a tow truck. why are you calling 911? that's where we are in this country. we have to have these conversations. if it freaks people out, too bad. too bad. >> we are going to get to the tow truck tweet. i want to give you a chance to set the record straight for us. is it a false choice we are presenting when we ask the question, is de-funding the police necessary, like george stephanopoulos was asking stacey abrams there? >> you know, if abolishing

slavery was necessary, then we can talk about this. there is a level of courage that this moment is calling every single one of us to. there were systems that were constructed in this country and when somebody proposed the idea that we should actually treat people not as property but as people and as human beings, there were lots of folks who said it will crush the economy, people who said, what about my family and my family's jobs? if your family has built their wealth and their existence on the backs of other people, then it is not only right but it is our responsibility to dream a different dream. absolutely. we are creating a false narrative. instead, we have a responsibility in the media to help educate and bring people into exactly what our most radical re-imagination can point us toward. because there's a precedent for about li abolition in this country. we have to follow it. >> you asked the question like

this in a poignant way in your tweet. we wendy's could have called a tow truck and rashard brooks would be alive tonight. explain it to our viewers. what is the connection there? it sounds simple, but explain it to our viewers. >> it doesn't take all the imagination in the world to think that there's another way to solve problems. whether it's a dispute in the parking lot, a car that's blocking the exit. any number of the things that don't require armed involvement. it doesn't take a lot of re-imagination to think about what else could happen. i gotta say, one of the things that's most distressing about the moment we're in are the set of replies. i know you are not supposed to read replies. if you do, what you will hear is people talking about, dui is a serious offense. a tow truck driver will not do that. get real, you idiot.

i'm used to being called an idiot. i get that from students all the ti time. people are more invested in debating the minutia than there's a man who is dead who didn't have to be. there's a man who is dead who didn't have to be. a father who is dead who didn't have to be. if we're not willing to start coming up with other solutions, other than calling the police for some of these issues, what we are saying is, i guess maybe some of you deserve to die, it's okay, it's the cost of doing business, sometimes white people deserve to die. they say in the comments and in my dm and the wonderful lovely beautifully written emails i get, they say if he complied. like george floyd. he wasn't fighting. you have been asking us, what is there to do and what should all of us be doing? i just want us to focus on the truth. i want us to tell the truth.

the truth is, we have been doing this to black people for hundreds of years. we have been making excuses for why it wasn't our fault, it wasn't the country's fault. black people in chains. we found technical reasons why the law, as if we didn't write the laws, why the law was a good reason for them to be dead. if there's one thing we can do right now, it's for the first time in american history we can be honest about american history. what we have been doing to black people since they showed up, without ceasing, without intere interruption, from 1619 to the present. >> jonathan, the final word. you started off this conversation with a poignant thought. the dehumanization of black people have continued in this country. it's a fundamental problem. how do we fix it?

>> you know, i want to end on not such a positive note but a glimmer of hope note. the fact that we're all here having a very raw, open, honest conversation about this is a glimmer of hope. the fact that there are still people in the streets around america protesting now two weeks after the murder of george floyd and still demanding justice is a glimmer of hope. the fact that a lot of the protests have -- they are multi-racial. some are a majority white. that's a glimmer of hope. because we are not going to move beyond this moment as it was said before unless and until the country -- i believe it's a majority of the country that's been silent so far, but has been awakened and is taking to the streets. they see what has happened. they can't look away now. those of us on this panel and those of us watching the show

right now, we cannot let folks who are awakened -- we cannot allow them or let them fall back asleep. >> we can't afford to be silent anymore. jonathan, phillip, brittany, mydwin, thank you all. jonathan, we will see you in a little bit. out there, which one should i use? try crest pro/active defense. it neutralizes bacteria for a healthier mouth than even the leading multi-benefit toothpaste. crest. if your child doesn't 1 iseem themself at times,ed. they may not be hydrated enough. wabba wabba! all new, plant powered creative roots gives kids the hydration they need,

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the attorney for the family of an unarmed black man shot and killed by a white new jersey state trooper during a traffic stop last month says the state's attorney's general's office is not being transparent. they released audio and video recordings of five episodes vopivop i involving him. the next day on may 23, he was stopped by a sergeant for allegedly speeding and then his

car stopped working. according to the attorney general's office, he told gordon to sit in his police cruiser while they waited for a tow truck and offered him a mask. after several minutes, he got out of the back seat and trying to enter the driver's seat, the attorney general's office says he used pepper spray and shot him six times during the struggle. dash cam footage captures the sergeant explaining what happened. >> the sergeant is on administrative leave with pay. the family's attorney says the video recordings are raising more questions because some of the portions are redacted. the attorney general's office has not released additional materials the attorney has

requested. the attorney general's office says it's not releasing further information while the investigation is underway. joining me now, william waxstaff, the attorney for the family. it's good to talk to you. we have been speaking on and off for the last couple of days since this came to light. tell our viewers what are some of the unanswered questions that you have that you have asked the attorney general's office to release that they do not want to release. >> good morning. yes, we have been speaking about this over the last week or so. i thank you for having me on again. what i want to deal with is the context in which the video that seems to keep being played and replayed is not in the proper context. there are many people believe he was cuffed in the back of the car. he was not cuffed. the entire -- it was about 40 to 50 minutes. that two minutes that keeps being aired is actually at the 48th to 50th minute.

mr. gordon had been sitting in the back of the trooper's car for 20 to 30 minutes without being provided with any information, no updates, where is the tow truck. he was not arrested. he had not been given a traffic summons. when he was ready to get out of the vehicle, he was under the belief that he could exit the vehicle and return to his own i physical force which previously he had given him commands that he responded to. i don't understand why you had someone who was compliant, who wasn't aggressive, allowed you to pat him down and make sure that he had no weapons on him, even if you wanted him to remain in the vehicle, then say that. why do you escalate the situation while engaging him with physical force and then after you shoot him six times, he is mortally wounded, you handcuff him, which speaks to the depravity of the officer.

why do you handcuff someone you shot six times? the videos i have been asking them to release, not just the ones seen, but the body cam videos of the other officers dispatched to the scene. the family does not know to this point whether or not there was any first aid provided, what the officers did or said when they got to the scene. i'm sure there was communication between the officers and his brethren that might illuminate what happened. we don't have that information. what's most troubling is that the 12 1/2 minutes that i was demanding they release that the ag had previously refused to show me, when i get the video, the objections raised in the meeting, i find out they are lies. he lied. he told my colleague and i he could not show us the video because it would compromise the identity of officers at the scene. you would learn of their names, see their faces. that's not true. you don't hear any officer

names, you don't see faces. it raises the question, what are you hiding? why did you take the position and lie to counsel for the family that there was something going to compromise your investigation when whin fact no of the things you say are going to be there are there? we're supposed to trust that this is an impartial and fair investigation? you have the state police being investigated by the state attorney and there's all of this foul play, from what i can see at this point, and we're supposed to trust this as being independent. it's not right. there needs to be an independent prosecutor. >> let me pick up on that. thank you for providing that context. that's the second part i was going to pick up on. do you have confidence with the way the investigation is being handled? if not, who do you think could right now give you that

confidence with an investigation? which authority do you want to see lead this investigation if it's not the state attorney general's office? >> it should be a prosecutor that has no pony in the race. whether it's another county. i don't think it should be the burlington county's prosecutor's office. maybe someone brought in from out of the state of new jersey, someone that's a prosecutor someplace else. if you think about the reason they started with this 2019 directive from the ag's office was to try to provide imparrimp things. it doesn't work when you have the state police being investigated by the state attorney. for us to feel a little bit more confident -- they are getting to this party late. they should have been at the investigation from the beginning. but hand it over to somebody

that is independent, that will present the information to the grand jury in a fair and impartial way so that justice can be served. there should be an indictment. he was killed. the fact that they have not arrested this man as far as i know, the fact that they saw it important to look at the 30 hours prior to his shooting but not look at the 30 hours of the shooters. why are they investigating mr. gordon instead of investigating the actions leading up to this event of the shooter? i never heard that. >> very valid question. thank you for joining us. if you have any other updates, you have an invite to come back and join us with that. appreciate your time. >> thank you. up next, more "a.m. joy" right after the break.

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welcome back. south carolina's senator lindsey graham may not breeze through re-election after all. a poll showing a tie between him

and harrison. a favorite tactic of graham's opponents using his words against him like in this ad released friday. >> i want to talk to the trump supporters for a minute. what is donald trump's campaign about? he is xenophobic, religious bigot. you know how you make america great? tell donald trump to go to hell. if you can't admire joe biden as a person, you got a problem. you need to do some self-evaluation. what's not to like? he is as good a man as god ever created. he has had some of the most incredibly heartfelt things that anybody could say to me. he is the nicest person i think i have ever met in politics. this is a defining moment in the future of the republican party. we have to reject this demagoguery. if we don't reject donald trump, we have lost a moral authority in my view to govern this great

nation. >> joining me is mr. harrison. the former south carolina democratic party chair. it's great to have you with us. i want to start off by getting your reaction to that. what is the message behind that when you see lindsey graham saying the things he said about this president that he has now by most account s fallen behin and was become one of the biggest advocates? >> that ad was perfect in crystallizing this point. after 25 years in washington, d.c., lindsey graham isn't who he used to be. he is a shell of a person that he used to be. we used to respect lindsey because we thought he could get above the political fray and do what was in the best interest of the people of south carolina and this great country. this guy is washington political. he sold his soul. he is valueless. we need somebody right now in

the united states senate who will fight for the people of south carolina and not fight against them. that's why we have built this movement here in south carolina. we're asking people to join us. get lindsey graham, send him home or somewhere and get some real representation in washington, d.c. for the people of south carolina. >> speaking of the people of south carolina, let me put up a poll for our viewers showing this race. it's actually very close, neck and neck. the surprise is not the party support. it's 42 to 42 according to this poll. what's interesting is that in this poll, you are leading independents by almost a two to one ratio. what is it about your message you think that ise s rresonatin with independent voters in south carolina? >> what i tell voters here in south carolina, is not about democrats versus republicans or

progressive versus conservative. it's right versus wrong. when we look at issues here in south carolina, they are not partis partisan. hospitals are closing. it doesn't matter if you are a democrat or republican. fix the hospitals and stop them from closing. one-third of south carolina does not have access to broadband. it's 2020. just now, lindsey is starting to talk about broadband. he has been in washington, d.c. for 25 years. how do we expect our kids to compete if they can't connect with the world? there's so many issues from the environment to infrastructure that we really need to focus on. lindsey, he has had 25 years to do it. he hasn't done it because he cares about golfing with the president or flying around on air force one or having hearings about something that people don't care about, given that the coronavirus is baring down on our state at this moment. >> talking about the coronavirus, put this up as well. the coronavirus numbers in south carolina are staggering as of this morning.

17,955 cases, 599 deaths. there have been no new cases reported today. south carolina has seen a recent spike, i should note. the department of health and environment control there says the spike is not just due to more testing. what is your reaction to how officials in south carolina are handling this outbreak? >> listen, particularly lindsey graham, he has been focused on everything else other than how can you help and assist the people in south carolina. for example, south carolina is 50th in terms of funds appropriated from the federal government to our small businesses through the ppp program. we are 50th. lindsey has been all over the country talking about china this and that. people in south carolina, small business in south carolina, they don't care about china. they are trying to keep their businesses open. this is the same guy who said over his dead body will the

federal government extend the unemployment benefit of $600 a week to those unemployed. we have over half a million people in the state of south carolina who have filed four for unemployment. it's sad when he is fighting against you instead of fighting for you. >> i have to really -- we are almost out of time. i want to get your reaction to the news in neighboring georgia, another unarmed black man shot by the police. it triggered a nationwide conversation. what is the right course? what is the right course for how we go about addressing this issue? >> this situation in atlanta reminds me of the walter scott issue that took place here in south carolina a few years ago. we have to stop this. enough is enough. we have to have massive structural changes in our policing in this country. we have to demilitarize our

police forces. we need to root out all the bad cops. there needs to be more specialized training how we deescalate situations. we can't shoot first and then say sorry afterwards. enough is enough. particularly when it's people of color and black folks. it's breaking my heart and i'm tired, i'm frustrated. my community is in pain. it's great to see that many p t parts of our nation are standing up and say we want to be a part of the solution and not just say, this is a black person's problem because it's not. racism is an all of us problem. we all need to roll up our sleeves and address it. >> thank you very much. i appreciate your time this morning. >> thank you. coming up, the culture war takes a dramatic turn. that's next. ays to renovate your home, from inspiration to installation.

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to most, it's a sign of heritage. to a large group of people, it's a sign of hate and oppression and just a lot of negative and bad things that come to mind. inclusion is what we are trying to accomplish here. if the flag is holding them back, take it down for that -- for the sporting event. >> if there's a vision for how many pop culture has shifted, it's perhaps this black lives matter race car driven by bubba

wallace, nascar's only full-time black driver in its cup series and the one responsible for nascar's decision to officially ban the use of the confederate flag at its races. a poll shows that 67% of americans now support the black lives matter movement. back with me once again jonathan capart and tiffany cross. great to have you with us. let me get your thoughts about where we are in this kind of cultural shift right now that we see in this country. you have got shows that have been canceled, movies -- shows about policing, such as "cops," "live p.d." canceled, movies like "gone with the wind" that

are being taken off to be put back on with proper context. as we noted, the support among black lives matter in the general american public. where do you think we are culturally right now as a country? are we moving in the right direction? >> thank you. i would take a small issue and say i wouldn't call this a seismic cultural shift. i think every generation we make this blood sacrifice and hope that america will finally level the playing field for black americans. i would say that's more of where we are. this is our next blood sacrifice of still asking people to recognize our humanity. we saw this in the '60s in the '80s. we are seeing it now. if you welcome at the power structure, this is still black and brown people asking for equality. this is still white nfl owners allowing black players to kneel. this is still white nascar owners allowing black players to wear black lives matter. this is still white corporate power brokers at star at starb

allowing them to wear black lives matter. we are asking a television landscape to allow us to speak truthfully, don't sideline us, give us a platform to speak. i think in order for this country to have a true reconciliation and recognition where we are and stop buying into a false narrative about who america is, we have to reimagine america. previously, we could only see what was possible. that seemed out of reach. we are seeing the impossible. this is a moment for us to take up ourselves and galvanize this movement and grab power. when i see the power structure start to shift where we are not asking permission to live, to breathe, to hold onto our lives and pursue our livelihoods, then that's a seismic power shift. i think despite some of the small steps and despite seeing the needle move a bit now, we still have a much longer way to

go. >> i'm curious to get your thoughts on this. i'm sure you are aware and if you haven't seen it i encourage you to, but i'm sure you are aware of the dave chappell special that came out. he had one point that i want to pick up on, which was the criticism about celebrities coming out. he said, had this is not the ti for celebrities to come out. the street is talking. at the same time, you have somebody like taylor swift who tweeted out on friday as a tennessean, it makes me sick that there are monuments standing in our state that celebrate racist historical figures who did evil things. they were despicable figures in our state history and should be treated as such. how do we create the space where we let everyone speak their mind but at the same time, do we want to hear from celebrities or do we not? >> the thing is that it's not just saying something or tweeting something. i think this is a real moment when people are thinking, so what more do i do?

it's not just about tweeting something or making a statement. it's actually action. it's actually, what are you actively doing in terms of trying to analyze and deconstruct racism? how do you do that? this doesn't happen overnight. the performative of what dave is complaining about is that you can't just make a little performance statement and then be done with it. that's what everybody is really saying. it can't be about this notion of perform performative being an ally. my entire a naturnalysis of thi country really is formed in that moment. i wasn't a citizen at that time. what i understood was the power -- the people power. the boycotts, the street power of martin luther king. corporations are absolutely understanding that.

i say, it's a moment when we flip it. we say, that's great. we're going to demand more. for example, journalists at "the new york times" i agree all media across all networks, broadcast, print, need more diversity in influential positions and not just tokenism. to that point, jonathan capeh t capehart, i want to ask you about the counterpart when you see things like gone with the wind taken off or cops being canceled. you automatically hear this pushback of cancel culture and that has people worried that we're on you know, even some of the left are saying we're not

tolerant of diverse viewpoints if you're just trying to cancel everything we don't like or agree with. >> i mean i'm, i -- look. if a show or a movie wants to be aired or whatever, well then you know, folks should be prepared. shouldn't be such snow flakes and should be prepared for that movie to be criticized. i mean gone with the wind, yeah, a classic movie. people love it. there's some issues there and from what i understand, it might come back with a, with some programming before with african-american professors talking all about it. these are the nitty-gritty cultural conversations that need to be had and i, i don't -- i can't be bothered with the whole cancel culture argument or conversation because the people who are doing it, the people who are engaging in it in terms of leveling of criticism saying

you're tryi ining to cancel cul, they can't stand the fact that there are people demanding respect and demanding dignity and demanding that their lives be seen in full and whole and not you know, caricatures, you know, that are put out there in the media. whether it's in television or it's by us in the news media. this is part of a larger conversation that has to be, that has to be had. i'm going to piggy back, when i was at bloomberg news at a national affairs columnist, my editor at the time, the big mantra was show, don't tell. and that is exactly where we are right now. don't send me your press release. don't put out a nice, cute tweet. don't put out something that has hashtag black lives matter. now is the time you're going to

do that, show me how you're putting those kind words into action. show me your board. your news room. your, the writer's table where you're hashing o inin ining out. show me how that tweet has become a culture within your organization that truly does respect diversity. not tokenism. no one's asking to be hired just to sit there and fill a place. people are asking to be hires because they are talented, they have something to contribute and they should p heard and right now as i said a few segments ago, this is part of the glimmer of hope that i see that folks are feeling empowered to speak up and speak up loud ly, but th glimmer of hope also is that there are people in positions of power who have their ears opened. >> tifftiffany, you brought up

subject of the nfl. you wanted to say something? >> what he's saying is to hire us. sure, hire us, but it's also still us asking white people for an opportunity to hire us. how about putting ourselves in a position to do the hiring. for banks to give us loans, for us to even own banks to give money. they've never been the ben fir yash of any of the goodness of that wealth, but so many around us thrive in it so every day, we see people winning while we're losing. we have to reimagine america. what does the power structure look like when we're at the helm at the table and not asking for a seat at the table. >> final thought on the program. reimagining america where more people of color and diversity are at the seat of the power. how do we get to that? because capitalism was pose e s to allow that to happen. it's not working that way when

you're looking at some of the biggest forces in this country. >> look, what happens is that we internalize our greatest criticism is often we can't do this. look, ten years ago, i was without a job. i created my own non-profit media company. i had never done anything like that before. we're ten years old. an institution now. a h lot of times, we're afraid. what tiffany is saying do it ourselves and believe in our own power. >> we're lucky to have your organization. thank you for joining us this hour. that's our who for today. thanks to everyone at home for watching. but before you go, a couple of programming notes for you. the mayor of atlanta will be a guest on msnbc tonight 6:00 p.m. and later tonight, tune in to joy reid's special, america cris crisis poverty and pandemic. po.

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good day, everyone, from msnbc headquarters here in new york. approaching high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. in the west. we have this breaking news. another police killing here in america. at least six cameras show a struggle between officers and a black man. the outrage prompts an abrupt resignation, a firing, protests, arrests, as the scene intentions are smoulderring today.

president trump defends american institutions under fire as a republican senator telling nbc news the president and his team did not connect the dots on june. nascar returns with first of its kind changes and at least one city rebels against its own governor and is threatened with a lawsuit. who will back down firs first? but we'll begin with the killing of rayshard brooks, a black man shot friday night. this is the scene today at the wendy's where the scene took place. still smoulder lg after a fire last night. police cam show the moment before brooks was shot. here's a warning. some of you may find these images disturbing. >> i think you've had too much to drink to be driving. put your hands behind your back for me. put your hands behind. >> so the police video shows the officers trying to handcuff brooks then a scuffle.