week. thank you so very much for being here with us. on behalf of all my colleagues at the networks of nbc news, good night from our temporary field headquarters. this has been the great city of atlanta, georgia, today. protesters in the streets for a third straight day after the fatal shooting of rayshard brooks, an unarmed african-american man who was shot by a white atlanta police officer late on friday night. this is three weeks now since the death of george floyd at the hands of minneapolis police sparked nationwide protests. atlanta is now seeing a whole new wave of protests with renewed force, renewed urgency after this latest police killing. things are moving quickly in atlanta. within hours of the shooting late on friday, the officer involved was fired from the

atlanta police department, and then the atlanta police chief stepped down. we're going to be speaking live with atlanta's mayor, keisha lance bottoms, in just a few minutes. but i should mention things are moving quickly not just in atlanta right now but all over the country. just this afternoon, the country's largest police force, the new york city police department, announced that it is disbanding a 600-person plainclothes anti-crime unit. these were plainclothes officers spread out across the city, ostensibly to root out violent crime. but out of a force of roughly 20,000 nypd officers, that one 600-person unit was involved in a disproportionate number of fatal shootings. that unit will now be disbanded. cross to the other side of the country, three big police unions in california -- in los angeles, san francisco, and san jose -- took out a full-page ad in local papers on sunday and in "the washington post" announcing their willingness to talk about some changes for american

policing. the unions outlined five proposals that they endorse, including a national use of force standard, a public database of use of force incidents, a national database of former police officers fired for misconduct so they won't be rehired elsewhere. it should be said that the focus of these unions in california is on individual officers, weeding out racist officers or otherwise bad officers, holding officers accountable who break the law whereas much of the nationwide protests we've seen in recent weeks is centered explicitly on the idea that genuine police reform isn't about individual bad actors. it has to be systemic. it has to be about policing writ large and not only focused on individual officers. still, though, it is striking to see at least some police unions loudly signaling, publicly signaling that they are open to some reform. police unions have frequently

been implacable opposed to any reform. they have been not just opponents, they havedy announced as their enemy anybody who had the temerity to suggest such a thing. to see them say here are some reforms we would be on board with, despite how out of step they might shall wibe with the transformative, it's still unusual for unions to make ta statement. in san francisco, the mayor london breed has announced a slew of proposals for the san francisco police department, including that police in that city will no longer respond to 911 calls that don't involve crimes. so if people call 911 for situations that involve not criminal behavior but mental health issues or the homeless or school discipline or neighbor disputes, it won't be police

officers who respond to those calls. it will be other trained, unarmed personnel. in the city of albuquerque, new mexico, where the police department has been under federal soup invitation fupervi because of its aggressive use of force, the mayor announced it's going to create a whole new safety department to respond to non-criminal 911 calls. like sfpd, they're saying police officers will not be the default responder to calls that aren't about things that are obviously crimes. albuquerque shift money from the police department to fund a team of social workers and housing and homelessness specialists and violence prevention experts and diverse program experts. today seattle and nashville were the latest american cities to ban the use of choke holds by police officers in those cities' departments. even president trump is apparently trying to get in on some of the action, maybe, saying he will sign some kind of

executive order on police reform tomorrow. we'll see. he says he took suggestions from multiple law enforcement agencies in writing it, which is definitely the first box you want to check on a police reform order. the pressure for police departments in cities and elected leaders, even elected leaders as unlikely as president trump, the pressure for them to do something, the feeling among so many of them that they must do or at least be seen to be doing something, that is because of the sustained protest movement in this country that continues today, three weeks on from the killing of george floyd. this was the newly named black lives matter plaza in washington, d.c. on sunday morning, yesterday morning. "the washington post" described the plaza as transformed into a church with, quote, thousands of mostly african-american worshippers praying, protesting, kneeling and dancing near the white house. this was an event yesterday in d.c. that clearly grew out of

the george floyd anti-police brutality protests. but three weeks on, there are more and more of these events that are taking on a broader scope and a broader purpose. thousands of people gathered in brooklyn, new york, this weekend for a black trans lives matter there. look at the crowd there. look at the crowd there in brooklyn, highlighting police violence specifically against black transgender women. thousands of people marched in los angeles too. there's been a variety of protests today as well. graduating high school seniors in seattle today held a black lives matter march in their caps and gowns called "walking for those who can't." peaceful protesters marched through the streets of new york city again today as they have most days for the past three weeks. and of course there was atlanta today, where protesters this morning held a march on georgia to the state capitol in the wake of the killing of rayshard brooks and to coincide with the opening of the georgia

legislature. rayshard brooks, a 27-year-old black man. he was fatally shot by an atlanta police officer on friday night. i'm about to show you some cell phone footage of what occurred. it is disturbing, so i'm going to give you a second if you do not want to watch it. if you'd like to walk away from your television, you should do so now. okay. the incident took place, as i said, friday night after police were called to a local wendy's fast food restaurant to investigate a complaint that somebody had fallen asleep in their car in a way that politicked the restaurant's drive-through lane. body camera footage shows the officer arriving on the scene and finding rayshard brooks in his car, and their initial exchanges were mostly calm. mr. brooks was seen as basically friendly and compliant. he was later given a field sobriety test which investigators say he failed. at that point mr. brooks asked if he could lock up his car and walk to his sister's house, which he said was just a short distance away. but as officers moved to arrest

him, things escalated. eyewitness video shows a struggle with rayshard brooks grabbing one of the officer's tasers and running awhile. while being chased, he turned around and appeared to aim the stun gun at police. the officer then shot rayshard brooks twice in the back and killed him. twice in the back. the fulton county district attorney is now investigating the case. as i mentioned, the officer who fired the shots has been fired from the atlanta police department. a decision on whether the two officers involved in the arrest might be charged could come as early as the next couple of days. the other officer has been pulled from the streets and is now on desk duty. but then in a move that surprised a lot of people, atlanta's police chief, erika shields, offered her resignation almost immediately following this incident. her decision came less than 24 hours after rayshard brooks was killed. chief shields had earned praise

just a short time ago during the protests following the death of george floyd. early on, this got wide circulation when she was seen speaking to and listening to demonstrators as they took the streets. but chief shields in atlanta is now gone out of that job. she's resigned. the mayor of atlanta announced this weekend she would be replaced by rodney bryant, an african-american man who has served in the department for over 30 years. he'll take over as chief now. but as remarkable as it is how quickly these actions were taken. the fact remains that another african-american man, another unarmed african-american man was killed at the hands of police, this time shot twice in the back. and that is a heartbreaking reality not just in terms of where we are as a country but obviously for the family of mr. brooks. today we heard from some of his family members in what was just an absolutely gut-wrenching news conference. >> not only are we hurt, we are

angry. when does this stop? we're not only pleading for justice. we're pleading for change. the zone where my uncle was killed is the same zone we represent and loved all our lives. we stood with the atlanta police department when they were tearing up our city and saying, this doesn't happen here, leave them alone. here we are three weeks later. those same police took something away from my family that we'll never get book, rayshard brooks. >> there's no justice that can ever make me feel happy about what's been done. i can never get my husband back. i can never get my best friend. i can never tell my daughter, oh, he's coming to take you skating or swimming lessons. so it's going to be a long time before i heal. it's going to be a long time before this family heals. >> there is nothing anybody can

say right now to heal the pain that that family is feeling, but this is a time when political leaders need to at least try to rise to the occasion, right? to try to find justice not just for that family but for the entire community that they represent, especially a community that is now in many ways in crisis. in atlanta, that burden has fallen on mayor keisha lance bottoms. in the days after the death of george floyd when atlanta saw huge and growing protests and sometimes violence, mayor bottoms emerged as a clarion voice in atlanta but also in remarks that resonated around the country, her speaking both as a mayor and as a mother. >> above everything else, i am a mother. i am a mother to four black children in america, one of whom is 18 years old. and when i saw the murder of

george floyd, i hurt like a mother would hurt. and on yesterday when i heard there were rumors about violent protests in atlanta, i did what a mother would do. i called my son, and i said, where are you? i said, i cannot protect you, and black boys shouldn't be out today. so you're not going to out-concern me and out-care about where we are in america. i wear this each and every day, and i pray over my children each and every day. so what i see happening on the streets of atlanta is not atlanta. this is not a protest. this is not in the spirit of martin luther king jr. this is chaos.

a protest has purpose. when dr. king was assassinated, we didn't do this to our city. so if you love this city, this city that has had a legacy of black mayors and black police chiefs and people who care about this city, where more than 50% of the business owners in metro atlanta are minority business owners, if you care about this city, then go home. >> it's just been about two weeks since mayor bottoms made those remarks in atlanta, and now her city is coming to grips with another tragedy, another crisis, this time involving its own police department. today she signed a series of executive orders aimed at pretty dramatically overhauling the way the atlanta police department uses force that includes amping up the use of de-escalation tactics and having other officers intervene when they see

unreasonable force being used by one of their colleagues. she said today, quote, it is clear we do not have another day, another minute, another hour to waste. joining us now live is the mayor of atlanta, keisha lance bottoms. mayor bottoms, thank you so much for making time tonight. i really appreciate you being here at this critical time for your city. >> thank you for having me. >> can you tell us about the reforms that you are pursuing now and about what you see coming in days ahead in terms of this real crisis for your city and this deep sadness and deep upset over this killing on friday night? >> so let me begin, rachel, again by just publicly expressing my condolences to the family of george floyd and also to rayshard brooks and to so many others across this country.

we have had the great misfortune in atlanta of having to live this out with the rest of the nation and following the killing of george floyd, i did not believe that we would be where we are today. that being said, shortly after the killing of george floyd, president obama issued a challenge to cities across this country, including atlanta, for us to take a look at our use of force policies. we convened an advisory committee, and we have begun -- worked just last week to take a look at all of our use of force policies, expecting recommendations within 14 days with a final report within 45 days with community input. and then the worst -- the absolute worst happened in our city on friday. and so while we are still awaiting those recommendations, there are some things that are very clear that have to change with our police department based on what i saw happen on friday

night. that includes a duty to intervene when possible. we saw in the case of george floyd, the officers did not intervene. also a duty to de-escalate. our officers -- it is -- our officers are trained in a way that is not always favorable to de-escalation. also under very limited circumstances, allowing officers to shoot at moving vehicles, only if someone's life is in danger. and then there are a series of other things. but we are already reaching out to people across this country to help us look at our police department not just with our existing policies but what more can we do because what it says to me, if this can happen in atlanta, in the midst of all that we are experiencing and the way that we are grieving and angry and frustrated across this

country, if this can happen in atlanta, then this can happen anywhere. and we're lacking for a transformation of the way that we police in our city. >> is it going to help or hinder your efforts to pursue those kinds of changes that you just accepted the resignation of erika shields, your police chief? i've heard you speak about chief shields in the past, express your confidence in her. we've seen how she's performed as atlanta police chief. she tendered her resignation essentially immediately in the wake of this incident. was that the right call, and how do you think that will affect the ability to implement the kinds of change you're talking about? >> i continue to have the utmost respect for chief shields. i worked with her for many years while i was a member of city council, and she was one of the few people who i kept in leadership positions from the previous administration. chief shields is no longer serving as our police chief, but

she is still a part of our police department and stands ready to assist us in any way needed as we look at this transformation. and the way that i look at it, rachel, the transformation of policing across this country is not going to be a sprint. it's a marathon. and when you are running a marathon or running in a relay race, there are times when the baton has to be passed on to someone else in order for you to continue moving forward. and so chief shields as said that she has a deep and abiding love for our city. she's going to do whatever she needs to do to make sure that we continue to move forward, but it's time to pass the baton on to someone else to make sure that we are where we need to be. and that's the reason we are conducting a national search. chief shields grew up in the atlanta police department, but we will be conducting a national search for a new lead for our

police department. >> we saw a statement tonight from the atlanta police foundation saying that nearly 20 officers have resigned from the department over the past ten days, citing heavy workloads, citing physical and emotional exhaustion. i wanted to ask your reaction to that statement and if in addition to the community concern and outrage about the behavior of apd officers, whether you are also concerned about the health of that force and whether they are at their own kind of breaking point right now given what the officers have been going through for the past few weeks, if those two concerns and considerations come together in any way? >> well, actually information that i have is that that number is inaccurate, that we have had about eight resignations, and on average we have anywhere -- usually from two to six, i believe, is what we normally see in any given month.

so i don't think eight is a big number given where we are with the scrutiny and the stress that's on officers across this nation. and let me be clear. i have worked with many of these police officers for many years. i've grown up with some of them. i've known some of them since kindergarten literally because i was born and raised in atlanta. so i know that there are men and women on our police force who love this city as much as i do, and they are putting themselves on the line each and every day when they go out to police our communities. but as president obama said in the 21st century plan for policing, our police officers have to be guardians and not warriors in our communities. and i think in the same way that we had to take a fresh look at how we dealt with domestic violence cases, how we dealt with sexual assault cases, it's the same way that we're going to have to look at how we deal with

racial sensitivities and policing in our country. and it's unfortunate that it has come on the heels of losing innocent people in our country, but this is necessary, and i think it is incumbent upon us as leaders to take this next step from anger and frustration because i'm experiencing that too. i am saddened and all of the range of emotions, but now we've got to move this to action and make sure that we're transforming our police departments and also just restoring confidence and trust in our public safety personnel. even with the unrest that we've had in atlanta, we've had our firefighters come under attack. we've had molotov cocktails thrown at them. so we are experiencing encounters in atlanta with our police officers and firefighters that we've not experienced ever. but certainly the anger and the

frustration is understandable, and it is even more frustrating that we are here in atlanta on the heels of what the nation has been grieving as it relates to the murder of george floyd. >> atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms, mayor bottoms, thank you so much for your time tonight. i know it's going to be tough days ahead in your city. come back to us anytime. we'd love to stay apprised on how things are going. good luck to you, ma'am. >> thank you for having me. >> all right. much more to come here tonight, including on this momentous decision from the supreme court today and what may explain some of the trump administration's absolute policy incoherence around the issue underlying that ruling. that's all ahead. stay with us. - [narrator] did you just reward yourself

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today in a surprise from the

u.s. supreme court, an unexpected coalition was formed that included the four more liberal justices along with two justices who are definitely not liberals, chief justice john roberts and the trump-appointed justice neil gorsuch. having formed that unusual 6-3 majority, it was justice gorsuch who wrote today's ruling that makes illegal under federal law to fire someone for being gay or transgender. until today, in most states in this country, it was perfectly legal for your employer to fire you on the basis of your actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity. if your boss thought that you were gay or trans and didn't like that, you could be fired. that was legal in most states as of today. while today's surprise supreme court ruling means from here on out, henceforth, if that happens to you in your state and you get fired for that reason, you can now file suit in federal court, and the federal law should

protect you because as neil gorsuch wrote in today's ruling, quote, an employer who fires an individual merely for being gay or transgender defies the law. today's ruling is the most important ruling on lgbt civil rights issues since the supreme court's decision affirming the legal right for same-sex couples to get married. today's decision is also the first big lgbt civil rights case since justice anthony kennedy volunteered to leave the bench, apparently to make room for his former law clerk, brett kavanaugh. there had been a bunch of hollow, facile, wishful thinking that justice kennedy being pro-gay rights meant he wouldn't give up his seat for kavanaugh unless kavanaugh was secretly pro-gay rights too. justice kavanaugh voted in the minority today. but kavanaugh was outvoted today

in the minority. he lost. and importantly so did president trump. the trump administration had sided in today's fight with the employers who had fired the plaintiffs here. the trump administration had sided with the funeral home that had fired aimee stephens because she was trans. they had sided with the sky driving company that fired donald zarda because he advised a client she shouldn't be nervous to be strapped to him for a tandem jump because he was 100% gay. the trump administration also sided with the county agency in clayton county, arizona, that fired gerald bostock from his job as a social worker when they found he had joined a gay softball team. oh, the horror. president trump told the supreme court that your boss should be able to fire you anywhere in america if you join a gay

fricking softball team. but he lost in court today. that said, he's still the president, and he and his administration are still doing everything they can to make the lives of lgbt people as miserable as dangerous and unprotected as possible. today's monday morning ruling in this landmark set of cases comes after the friday night move by president trump to make it explicitly okay for health care providers to refuse to provide services to transgender people or to otherwise discriminate against transgender people. like this was a problem that urgently needed solving, right? especially in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic with 115,000 americans dead. oh, no, the real serious problem in america that they needed to act to solve late on friday night is that it's not legal everywhere for health providers to turn people away from treatment just because they don't like trans people, right? president trump is like, oh, we

got to act to fix that. they can't get coronavirus tests into nursing homes where 45,000 americans have just been killed in the past four months. they can't figure out any kind of infection control protocol in federal prisons where there are tens of thousands of coronavirus infections, and they're not even testing the staff. but, you know, they're johnny on the spot when it comes to whipping up a new federal rule change so trans people request affirmatively be discriminated against by health providers because, yeah, whoo, that was a problem the country needed working on. not enough discrimination against trans people in health care. who goes into government for this purpose? after rolling out that new "it's okay to discriminate rule" on friday night for health providers, the trump administration is now apparently working on a follow-up rule that will make it affirmatively okay for trans people to be discriminated against in housing as well because, sure, why not,

right? what else does president trump have to work on that's more important than making trans people's lives harder and making it clearly legal and welcome for anybody in america to discriminate against trans people and hurt them. got to get working on that. definitely don't have time to stop people dying from coronavirus with any meaningful federal action, but we've got to get our discrimination factor up against the trans community. we all working on that? is that top of mind? when the trump administration put out this rule on friday night, one of the insult to injury factors for that new rule is that they issued this rule on what was the four-year anniversary of the pulse nightclub massacre in the summer of 2016 when a terrorist gunman killed 49 americans and shot and wounded 53 others at an lgbt nightclub in orlando, florida.

49 americans dead, and on the anniversary of that massacre, the trump administration picks that day to take its own legal shots at the trans community. but these instances, these consistent instances of president trump fighting so hard to hurt lgbt people in as many different ways as he can, the court cases he's now losing, the new rulings affecting federal agencies, what's interesting is that it's not like he campaigned saying he was going to do this. and if he thinks there is political benefit to him doing this, why did he campaign saying he'd do the opposite? i mean these things that he's been doing throughout his administration, including what he's doing right now, this court case that he lost, these new rule changes, these follow his own declarations when he was running in 2016 that he was going to be a super pro-lgbt president, that he'd definitely be better than the terrible democrats on this issue. >> ask yourself who is really

the friend of women and the lgbt community? donald trump with actions or hillary clinton with her words? as your president, i will do everything in my power to protect our lgbtq citizens. >> sure you will. "the new york times" memorably fell for it at the time, writing this now lol-inducing piece in 2016 on how donald trump was, quote, set apart from other republicans because he was so pro-gay rights. right. then he got elected, and he decided that he would declare by tweet that all trans americans should get kicked out of the u.s. military, and his administration immediately moved to strip gay and transgender people of any protection of being fired for those things, a fight they have been working on for the entire trump presidency until they finally got swatted

down at the supreme court today. why is it this way, though? i mean this isn't a flip-flop where a politician, you know, changed his or her mind over time. it's not an instance of a, you know, concealment of the politician's true agenda where he really had "x" feelings but he campaigned on "y" feelings so he could sneak into office and then, once he was in power, he could spring on us these surprise beliefs he had been deliberately concealing. it's not that. maybe it's some of those things too, but mostly if you ask yourself in your heart of hearts what this feels like, doesn't it kind of just feel like the president doesn't have any policy views? that he's just not interested? that he may or may not remember what policy view he has recently committed to. he says what seems good in the moment, and then maybe a year later or a month later or a week later or an hour later, if it

seems better to say the opposite policy, he just said that. who cares? he doesn't actually hold any views. he just says what he thinks he ought to say in the moment. how do you get to be president with that being your approach to what you want to accomplish with the u.s. government? quote, it's an open question as to whether or not trump has any meaningful understanding of his own policies. i think that is literally true. and i think it is an important part of understanding this presidency and republican politics generally right now. when steve elaborates this same point in his new book, i think the truth and the importance of this point becomes all the more apparent. let me show you what i mean. quote. despite his status as the first major party presidential nominee in american history to have literally no experience in public service of any kind,

donald trump was aggressively hostile to the very idea of a campaign shaped by the substance of governing and equally indifferent to learning how his own government works. his candidacy effectively served as a capstone years in the make, a post-policy party would be led by a post-policy leader. when trump won anyway, his electoral incentive to be more responsible disappeared, but his governmental incentive intensified in ways he struggled to understand. indeed, during trump's presidential transition process, a brutal obstacle course for even the most experienced and knowledgeable of politicians, there was an expectation that trump would shift his attention to the arduous task of assembling an executive branch team. well, the president-elect defied those expectations, instead launching a first of its kind post-election victory tour, ffrping self-indulgent campaign style rallies in mine red-state low cals. it an unmistakable signal that

trump after ignoring the importance of a policy making as a candidate for a year and a half, he would not change. no prektd has time for a multi-state tour during a short transition process, but trump made it a priority. given a choice between grueling preparations and basking in the applause of his followers, trump had little trouble choosing the more entertaining. by inauguration day, trump and his team were so unprepared for the transition of power, that they were reduced to asking several dozen senior obama administration appointees to remain in their jobs, not because republican officials approved of their work but because the incoming administration wasn't yet properly equipped. the services of obama's people were required for the continuity of governmental operations. this included, among others, positions related directly to national security. on january 18th, 2017, foreign policy reported that trump was poised to enter the white house with most national security positions still vacant after a disorganized transition that has stunned and disheartened career government officials.

one career government official telling the magazine, quote, i've never seen anything like this. that was because no one had ever seen a post-policy administration try to fill important governmental posts before. i feel like one of the things that has happened through the whole trump president scy thus is us citizens and those of us in the immediate and those of us whose job is to explain the behavior of our government and its leaders, have spent all of this time talking about the incoherence of their behavior given their stated views, given their stated policy positions, given what they said they wanted to do with the government. what if the republican party in the years before donald trump became president -- what if the republican party is a post-policy party? what if they're not about governing anymore? what if their only skill and their only aim now is getting, holding, expanding, and strengthening their grip on

power? it's the first thing that i've read in a long time that has made sense of the last three years in a way that helps me understand what might come next too. the book is called "the imposters: how republicans quit governing and saved american politics" steve benen joins us next. stay with us. so, when you get a check... you can deposit it from here. politics" steve benen joins us next. stay with us. zaved american politics" steve benen joins us next. stay with us. eaved american politics" steve benen joins us next. stay with us. daved american politics" steve benen joins us next. stay with us. bank?" you can tell them: here's my bank. bank?" or here's my bank. or, here's my bank. because if you download and use the chase mobile app, your bank is virtually any place. so visit chase.com/mobile.

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i want to read you something from one of the sharpest political thinkers i know, one of my dear friends. it says, quote, the electorate has long had reason to assume that both major parties were mature and responsible policy-making entities. their philosophical differences notwithstanding. the actions of the republican party over the last decade have made it abundantly clear, though, that is time to re-evaluate that assumption. the current iteration of the gop is indifferent to the substance of governing. it's disdainful of expertise and analysis. it's hostile toward evidence and

arithmetic. it's tethered to few if any meaningful policy preferences. it does not know and does not care about competing proposals should be crafted, scrutinized, or implemented. the modern republican party has become a post-policy party. that comes from a new book called "the imposters: how republicans get governing and seized american politics." it's my pleasure to welcome to the show steve benen, who is the author of this book, who is one of my dear friends and who is the person who has had more influence on my thinking as an american writing about politics than any other person in this country. steve, congratulations on the book. thanks for being here. >> it's a pleasure to be here. thank you so much. >> i know that talking on television is your least favorite thing in the world maybe, and so i appreciate you making the exception here. but i do feel like the book makes me retroactively make

sense of the last three years in a way i was not able to before i read the book. and i also feel like you are sort of offering the cure to those of us who are so bewildered by the fact that trump doesn't seem to have any interest in governing or policy at all. your thesis is basically that this is not a trump problem. this is a republican party problem that started to emerge during the obama presidency and that trump is just the natural outgrowth of that. can you explain that part of your thesis? >> sure. you know, after the bush/cheney area, i think republicans found themselves at a cross roads. the party had been rejected by voters. democrats had just one two wave elections in a row. in general, i think the electorate had largely turned against everything republicans stand for. so republicans had to decide what would their priorities be. what would their goals be. how would they function in the coming years. and they had to decide in a hurry. ultimately i think they made the wrong choice.

what they did was they said we're going to give up on the idea of having an agenda. republicans will define themselves to the opposition of whatever obama was for even when obama agreed with them. so we had eight years of effectively governing nihilism, even when they were the majority in the house. that i think paved the way for the trump era because what we saw from donald trump was a candidate was a post-policy candidacy and then a post-policy transition period. and now we have three-plus years of a post-policy presidency. >> what is the dynamic, though, that continually drives the party further in that direction because what you're describing is a very specific form of radicalization. you hollow any interest in governing, any ability to even work on legislation. you have this great anecdote, which i did not know before reading your book, which was that when mike pence was in senior leadership in the house in 2009, he sort of led the way in firing all his legislative

staff and replacing them all with messaging people, with communications people. i mean that sort of literal hollowing out of what they're supposed to be as lawmakers is radical. but there's definitely some imperative that's pushing them to go further and further in that direction as fast as they can. is there reward that they're getting in this sort of feedback loop that's pushing them consistently in this direction? >> you know, governing is hard. it's time-consuming. it requires hours and endless unglamorous work. and i think republicans have had to make a choice between being pundits and trying to seek and acquire and maintain power or rolling up their sleeves and doing actual meaningful policy work. and they ultimately seemed to have come to the conclusion that it's vastly easier to be pundits than policymakers. and because they've been rewarded for that, because they've won multiple election cycles, they've been put in

positions of authority at the state and federal and local levels, they've felt no need to change that dynamic. that's one of the reasons that i think the coming election cycle and the one after that and the one after that will be so important. parties change when voters tell them that they have to change. >> usually you would expect the feedback loop when we've got real crises as a country to be rewarding people who have solutions for those problems. i mean that's how it should work in normal terms. do you have faith that this next election will be defined along those lines? >> it's hard to have faith. you know, i saw something interesting this morning. i went to joe biden's campaign home page and i went to donald trump's campaign home page. and i looked at joe biden's issues page to see what was there, and there were 37 plans and blueprints and outreach to various constituencies to let everyone know that if joe biden was elected, here's what he would do with power. then i went to donald trump's to look for a comparable page and

it did not exist. there is no issues page there. and i'm thinking, well, maybe we can replace that with the republican platform except that doesn't exist either. they are simply just taking the 2016 platform and slapping

tonight it is two weeks since the decision nobody in the trump administration seems to want to own. the decision to use force against peaceful protesters to drive them out of the park across the street from the white house so the president could spend three minutes posing for photos in front of a church on the other side of the square. on the far left you can see defense secretary mark esper, who later said he didn't know where he was going when he appeared at that photo op. next to secretary esper here is general mark milley, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff in combat uniform. general milley ended up belatedly apologizing for being there that day, for giving the perception that the military supports one side in partisan politics. these couple of weeks have had some remarkable instances of military leaders, active and retired, speaking out about what happened there. among them is former defense secretary robert gates, who served as defense secretary under president bush and obama. he called clearing those protesters out misguided and a

bad mistake. here's a programming note for tomorrow tonight. former defense secretary robert gates is going to be here live on this show tomorrow night. watch this space. we'll be right back. aleve it. aleve is proven stronger and longer on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong. (vo) ♪love. it's what we've always said makes subaru, subaru. and right now, love is more important than ever. in response to covid-19, subaru and our retailers are donating fifty million meals to feeding america, to help feed those who now need our help. its all part of our commitment to our communities

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thanks for being with us tonight. that's going to do it for us for now. i'll see you again tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. the one thing that i didn't want to say when we were in the midst of all of the coverage of george

floyd was that of course this is going to happen again, and here we are this weekend after atlanta, and it's undeniable. it doesn't matter how recently the officers were trained. these were recently trained officers. this is a recurring problem and at least now there is a sustained plan to fix it. that's something we haven't heard. >> to hear the mayor of atlantic talk about it the way that she did tonight in our hour, to hear the police chief who just resigned in atlanta over this incident talk about policing, the need for reform, the need for community trust, the need for these not to happen and then for to it happen in atlanta where you know what they are trying to do and the unified field that they presented on stuff like this. it is very demoralizing.