it wasn't great for blacks when we were enslaved and then had to fight jim crow and then fight for the right to vote, it wasn't great for white women, who couldn't even vote, it wasn't great for those of latino and asian descent, who were not welcome here. when was america great for everybody? we are the ones, you are that marching in selma, you are that are marching all over america, we're the ones that will make america great for everybody for the first time. >> good morning, and welcome to a.m. joy, we have a jam-packed two hours this morning. including the breaking news that broke overnight during the rachel maddow show, a crisis emerging from the department of justice as trump attorney general and william barr, abruptly anouned that geoff ry

berman, the key attorney in manhattan running key investigations into trump's allege lies among them rudy giuliani will leave his post only for berman to push back hours later saying he will not resign. we will bring you more on that story shortly and throughout the show. but first, america this week is celebrate juneteenth like it never had before. rallies, marches, and events unfurling across the nation on friday. a fitting celebration of freedom, amid the national protests over policing and systemic racism that hasn't stopped for more than 25 days. what did not happen on juneteenth of this year was a trump rally, originally planned for tulsa, oklahoma. instead, it is happening today. after the trump campaign's choice of juneteenth, the holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the united states for his first maga rally since march, drew outrage and revulsion and even worse, locating the ma maga-palooza in

tulsa oklahoma where in 1921 mobs of white supremacists attacked the black enclave, the greenwood district, looting black-owned buildings and including churches to the ground and using planes to bomb what was then called black wall street in the first act of aerial terrorism on u.s. soil killing an estimated 300 black tul tulsans. for the first time the trump campaign manager claimed he didn't know about the juneteenth holiday when organizing the event and didn't realize that tulgsa was the place of a hideous race massacre and then so what, they rally on other notable dates and no complaints. senator kamala harris tweeted quote, this isn't just a wink to white supremacists, he is throwing them a welcome home party. ouch. scheduling the rally didn't stop threat from threatening would-be

demonstrators in oklahoma, unleashing the ire of the aclu which reminded protesters that peaceful assembly is a first amendment right and they will sue quote any president, mayor, or police chief who attacks protesters, like they did in dc, seattle and minneapolis. with the election five months away, and trump now sinking under the seismic issues of coronavirus, and george floyd protests, we cannot deny that america looks and feels different than it did three weeks ago and that change is not good news for trump. he licked his wounds on twitter. after the supreme court blocked his bid to end daca. days after ruling that the civil rights act does indeed protect guy, lesbian, and transgender employees from discrimination, house speaker nancy pelosi has ordered the removal of four portraits of confederate house speakers on display at the capitol and a fresh quinnipiac poll know shows the majority mow support the removal of confederate statues from public places and oh, yeah, donald

trump is losing to joe biden in a fox news polls. maybe that's why tonight's rally is in ruby red nonswing state with lax rules on covid-19, and he needs the crowd to cheer him up. the attorney general is working hard to oust anyone not deemed an absolute loyalist. what we call this in the world of geopolitics is regime behavior. and joining me is alicia garza of the black futures lab, and nicole jones, pulitzer prize winning for "new york times" and brittany cunningham, thank you all for being here and i will go to you first, from a reporting angle, the idea that there was going to be a trump rally, in tulsa, on juneteenth, it even eventually scared away the trump campaign, they finally backed down from it. but i'm wondering if there is any residual impact from the fact that they planned to do it

at all. >> well, good morning, joy. good to be with you. i think there will be residual impact. listen, i think that there were a lot of white americans that are learning about what juneteenth is about and what the history of tulsa oklahoma is about and maybe that includes the president and his administration. but i think that the choice to initially schedule this rally on juneteenth in tulsa, that sent a message to black americans, changing the date, i mean juneteenth, for folks who are just learning about this holiday, is something that is celebrated over the course of an entire weekend. so moving the rally, to saturday, you know, does not necessarily get them out of the realm of interrupting or offending people who may see this as an affront to the juneteenth celebration. and so i've been reporting that racism is on the ballot for a lot of black american, they see the president holding this rally, on this weekend, in this

city, as racially offensive to them, and that could be something that does galvanize his opponents just as much as it does his supporters, who we already see are in the line out the door, hours before this rally is scheduled to begin. >> and nicole, let me go to you on this. donald trump has told "the wall street journal" that he has no regrets over using the sort of bull car-esque, there is a white racist sheriff in miami that used this phrase, the shooting star, excuse me, the bull connor of miami, he said that he could read it as a threat or as a, it is a combination of both, a threat and a fact in his view. he doesn't regret this. he is doing these things that whether or not his campaign manager says they are coincidental there is definitely, they're sending a very clear message, let's put it that way. what do you make of the reaction of the majority of americans, including the majority of white americans, too, we're now seeing changes, where even white americans now in a majority support, getting rid of these

statues, confederate statues, i remember on the absolutely freakout of the 1619 project from conservatives where they lost it when you put out that incredible body of work, but now it seems like that is a position that is winning. people want to know the history. they want to learn from it. >> yes, i think the way that people are now reacting and responding is exactly why so many conservatives freaked out about the 1619 project, is because if you understand the true history of this country, if you understand what the legacy of slavery and ongoing legacy of racial apartheid is in this country, you start to see the country in a different way. and you stop accepting things as we have long accepted. so yes, for years, decades, activists have tried to get, them trying to get to statues and trying to get these icons of white supremacy removed, have been trying to push the history of black people into the center, and now, we're seeing the fruition of that. so people, on the right, have been very afraid of a narrative

that doesn't deify our finding and forces us to confront it and that leads to change, often time, when people know better, oftentimes not always you about they do better and we're seeing that now. >> i guess the question would can, what kind of a sea change would it be? we're seeing these statues coming down around the country. we saw the black people of greenwood win this battle with the president of the united states over whether he was going to essentially march a maga rally right in front of them in their face, despite what happened there in 1921. trump did indeed back down. whatever he is doing now. you are seeing some of these changes. but would it mean to actually have this happen. have this come to fruition, have those statues come down? would that actually change anything on the ground demonstrably, what has changed? >> i think it is a change in a sense that it is a change in culture, it is a change in the way that we narrate who we, are and who we can be, and there's

more change that's needed, and we should expect, right, that more changes will be pushed for. frankly, we need to change rules. a lot of the rules that govern our communities, our cities, our states, have been against black community force a very long time. so lots of what i think we're going to continue to see like we're seeing in congress now is being pushed to try to change rules that have been raked against our communities and i think the jury is out to see what results from that. but frankly, i think that what we're also seeing is that the president and his agenda is actually being exposed in a way that i find to be really refreshing. there's a lot of ways in which i think we've assumed that he doesn't know that he is, you know, literally rallying white supremacists or folks with white supremacists ideas, but the last couple of weeks have shown that

he is absolutely willing to use these kinds of ideas, to use this kind of rhetoric, and in favor of himself, and so again, we've got to do the work we need to do to change rules that are being rigged, but we also need to continue to change culture in our communities as well. >> brittany, the thing that i didn't see coming out of all of this, is that you're now starting to see a national position, i mean i grew up in denver, colorado, so we celebrated juneteenth there, but when i moved back to new york, a lot of people really didn't, you know, weren't as aware of the holiday. so it has taken on a national fervor, right, and so let me let you listen to what senator kamala harris said to me the other night on the 7:00 p.m. hour on this network. >> together, with my colleagues, cory booker, and tina smith, and, we are proposing that juneteenth be a national holiday and we are dropping that bill to say that juneteenth should actually be a national holiday.

>> when you think about the fact that it took 15 years to get a king holiday through, and it took them to, in some cases getting into the 2000s before everyone recognized it in each state, there is a lot speedier process happening here of trying to get actual recognition for something that already should be recognized as a holiday, the idea that finally this country emerged from slavery. what do you make of the speed with which these ideas are coming to fruition? >> i think we owe it to the power of black people. there are folks, and some of whom are w.h.o. are sitting right on this panel, who have helped america reckon with itself, and just as alicia said, we have an opportunity here to change culture and to change rule, and there are more rules that need to change, even and including in tulsa, where the president will be going today. we know that the massacre that happened on black wall street is not taught to school children all around the country or even many school children in the state of oklahoma, even though

it happened right in their backyard. we know that the recompense that needs to be paid to families, and descendants of survivors of that massacre, is still being delayed, and so there are so many rules, and culture pieces that need to be changed here, and you know, joy, it is interesting, people keep asking me if i'm surprised by the sea change we're seeing in public opinion, around issues of race and racism. and my answer is always, have you met black people? we have been dragging america to the right side of history since we got here. we have been setting the moral bar when it was below the floor, as it is right now. over and over and over again. america continues to be saved. and it is democracy continues to be saved by the black inhab tants of this country and the world. and this moment is absolutely no different. >> you know, i think that's also

true, aaron on the policing reform, i remember rodney king, i'm the senior member of this panel and nothing happened, right? you look at all of these case, the first case that i ever met ben crump on, 2006, that those charges were charged and acquitted for beating a 14-year-old to death, four or five people, and now, all of a sudden with the george floyd case, things seemed to change, not seeing so much on the brie on th, breonna taylor's side, and there were demonstrations outside of mitch mcconnell's home about breonna taylor and there is changes but not equally for the death of black women, and is that how you see it? is it exactly equal? >> well, i think that's exactly right, joy. and thank you so much for bringing that up, because i do think, that we do need to talk about, the gender disparity in how these cases are being handled. listen, we are now on day 99 where none of the police

officers in the breonna taylor case have been charged or arrested. compare that to the rayshard brooks case in my hometown of atlanta. in under a week, those officers were held accountable. an officer was fired. officers were charged and arrested. and had to turn themselves in. in the george floyd case, from a legal perspective, things went swiftly from a legal perspective there and for folks from louisville and folks across the country, to be asking why this same process is not happening more specifically in louisville is totally valid and legitimate and you have to wonder how much depend ser a part of that -- gender is a part of that. listen, with these cases, where it happens to women, even though they don't happen as frequently, they are no less important, and they are no less deserving of our attention and calls for at kblt -- accountability in this country. >> and what do you expect out of

today? i will start with you nikole, what do you expect to happen today, with trump rallying so close to greenwood? >> i think there are going to be a huge kind of sentiment of people in greenwood, or excuse me, in tulsa, who say they don't want the rally there, that worry not just about the politics but the health effects, and then of course, all of the people there who have said they don't care if they get coronavirus or not, they're going to come out and show their support, and many of them are from out of town. they are not even from oklahoma. so i think we're going to see a very typical trump day. where he exaggerates the crowd. where they can show defiance to the things that are helpful for all americans. and it is going to be curiosity like usual. >> it will be a curiosity, alicia? >> i couldn't agree more. i think we will see a lot of the same as what we've already seen from this president, which is,

you know, using the tragedies of black communities and the tragedies in black communities, to build a bully pulpit, and frankly, this is one of many reasons why this movement has called for this president to resign. in a moment where this president could be showing leadership, and showing this country the way forward, he's using it as an opportunity to whip up white nationalists sentiment and to further divide people in this country. i think we're going to see more of the same, no surprise here. it's mostly a big nothing work. >> brittany? >> well, trump continues to show us who he is and i say we continue to believe him, and i don't believe we will see anything different in tulsa, oklahoma, but i do hope in louisville, kentucky, we do see the arrest of the officers who killed breonna taylor and a defunding of a police department

that continues to put black people in jeopardy. >> i think this is what you call a super panel. thank you very much. appreciate you all being here. and a late happy juneteenth. day after. and coming up, donald trump and his con sig lar's desperate power grab. g lar's desperate power grab mornings were made for better things than rheumatoid arthritis. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz a pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis when methotrexate has not helped enough. xeljanz can reduce pain, swelling, and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections like tb and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections. serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened.

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oversight. the president doesn't like inspectors general. the president doesn't like independent law enforcement. and the president doesn't like the southern district of new york. and i feel more strongly obviously and you can hear it in my voice because i used to run that place but it is the same kind of thing that the president does, at the state department, at the defense department, and all sorts of other places. he runs rough shod over government because he doesn't trust it unless it is fully in service of his personal interests and that's all he seems to care about. >> attorney general william barr's latest ploy to use the department of justice to go after donald trump's enemies,

barr announced late friday night, that geoff ry berman, u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york who overseas investigations into some of trump's most loyal alleys would be stepping down from his post. shortly after in a stunning act of resistance, berman contradicted barr, in a statement, and said, he has not resigned, and he has no intention of doing so, and he also went on to say, all investigations will move forward, quote, without delay, or interruption. those investigations have included inquiries into trump associates, like michael cohen, rudy giuliani, and his associates lev parnas, and igor fruman, barr announced that the position would be killed by securities and exchange commission chair jay clayton who by the way hasn't served as a prosecutor, even as a prosecutor in his entire career. joining us is a panel, msnbc contributor joyce van, and legal analyst paul butler and msnbc

contributor barbara mcquade, i will just go in order, joyce, let me read you what geoff ry berman said, this is his full statement, i have no intention to resign in my position to which i was pointed by the judges of the united states district court for the southern district of new york. i will step down when a presidentially appointed nominee is confirmed by the senate. until then, our investigations will move forward without delay or interruption. that is pretty gutsy. unexpected. and what do you make of this entire debacle? >> so it's absolutely unprecedented, joy, you know, berman was court appointed, because they never put him up for senate confirmation. and that frankly may come back to bite the president here. but what we should keep in mind, is how unusual the announcement itself was, i can't remember a u.s. attorney, ever announcing a resignation, at 9:00 p.m. on a friday night. barr tried to sneak this in under cover of dark. and then the u.s. attorney for

the southern district of new york turned around, and called him out as a liar on twitter, of all places. so we're in uncharted territory here. >> yes, and pre fer rar yeah who ran the southern district of new york, why didn't the u.s. president get rid of the hand picked attorney on a friday night less than five months before the election? and let me go to you on this paul, a cnbc article from my producer, this is from cnbc, about fdny, one of their investigations of deutsche bank, and also last year, it was reported that the fdny was among a group of federal investigative offices that were probing whether deutsche bank had complied with anti-money laundering and other laws. joich bank has reportedly loaned billions of dollars to trump's company and companies controlled by his family and the son-in-law jared kushner. it is hard to read anything good into that paul.

>> the question is why does the president do this? it is because his attorney general lets him get away with it. he authorizes this conduct. so look, the southern district of new york went after michael cohen. they got him. now the southern district is going after rudy giuliani. and trump steps in. this is a part of the pattern, the president has fired five inspectors general. he fired the u.s. attorney in dc who was prosecuting the michael flynn case. his genius move of course, was to appoint bill barr as his attorney general. mr. barr is the president's enforcer. mr. barr is the president's, with the vast resources of the u.s. justice department. >> i can tell you, that this show has been skeptical of william barr from the very beginning, and we noted that he was called the coverup general back in the late '80s to early '90s. jerry nad ler, congressman jerry

nadler, america's right to expect the worse of bill barr who has repeatedly interfered in criminal investigations on trump's behalf and we welcome berman's testimony and invite him to testify and is there a way donald trump can stop him from testifying? because he's done that before. >> yes, i think he probably could and we may see an intent to do that. what was most interesting is if mr. berman is no longer the u.s. attorney, as of wednesday, i think he would be in a position to be more free about explaining what's going on here. it seems likely to me that mr. berman is not going to be able to continue in this work anyway and so it might be best that he be fired before then or relieved before then so we can hear from him. at any rate whether it is wednesday or down the road, i think we will be hearing from geoff berman about what is going on, there is something that has prompted this, some investigation, whether you say it leads to deutsche bank or the

naming of president trump as individual one in the charges against michael cohen, there is something that has brought this to a head, and i think this is not the last we have heard about this story. >> yes, he'll be heard from eventually. joyce, you mentioned lev and igor's indictment, and pending, and trump's business and foundation are within their jurisdiction and donald trump has been pushing the boundaries of the law, but can a president simply fire away all of the prosecutors such that he prevents himself from being indicted, his friend from being indicted, is there no recourse that the american people have? >> so as long as the president has his roy cohn in place, in terms of attorney general, he has a lot of latitude in terms of what we never thought we would see for a president or an attorney general of this administration, but the rally is there is a reckoning coming in november and if trump is not

re-elected, in late january, of 2021, there will be a new attorney general, there will be a new justice department, and the statute of limitations on whatever crimes are being investigated in the southern district of new york will presumably not have run. so the president plays a dangerous, dangerous game here, and frankly, joy, it's hard to see what the end game is. at some point, it's clear that the rule of law is going to re-emerge, and president trump will be held accountable for some if not all of his misdeeds. i know we've all doubted the rule of law, and we've been worried about the justice system, but i think what we're seeing now is the end of trump's ability to play this out and there will be accountability. >> yes, he is going to mess and get the attorney general berman or ferarra, and i think this is john bolton's book, and i think i am on record that i have little respect for john bolton,

on the fact that he wanted to invade the middle east going back to the middle east and lauded and praised donald trump throughout knowing what he was doing and didn't try to save the country and didn't testify and that is my editorial, but from his book, which i'm glad we're able to read from for free, rather than paying for it. he told erdogan, the autocrat of turkey, that the company that is dear to ergsarthquake, that the legal sanctions on iran would disappear once they were replaced by his people. and bowlton deeming it an empty promise, it was jump as showing he had as much ar traesh authority as erdogan. paul butler, donald trump is trying to manipulate justice, get people indicted who he doesn't like, he's talked about, if violence should be happening against protesters, against the media, but then trying to get people off of crimes. could he wind up being indicted with a new attorney general in place? >> he certainly could.

and of course, the folks who biden has suggested to be vp, have been asked about this, have said that they would be open to an investigation of donald trump. now, that will be politically fraught. it will be like the newly elected leader was going after the former leader, but if there is evidence of fraud by donald trump, there certainly might be then he should receive the same process as any other citizen. >> and joyce, what about william barr? we know that richard nixon's second attorney general was indicted, in fact, could william barr face any legal sanctions for what he is doing to help donald trump do this stuff? >> it's hard to know, to answer that question, joy, until we know all of the details, but i think paul makes a really good point, that having a president come in and prosecute the prior administration is politically fraught and that may not be in

the best interest of the country. what's different about trump is that so much of the investigation into him involves his conduct before he became the president, or during the campaign, and that conduct i think is fair game, and that i think is where we'll see accountability, whether william barr ultimately faces accountability i think the history books will write him off as probably the worst attorney general in the history of this country. a terrible way for someone like william barr to end his career. >> he says he doesn't care about that, about history, but barbara mcquade, are we looking at a situation where running for president is the ultimate way to get away with crimes? >> such an interesting point, joy, because donald trump at this point, almost needs to be re-elected to avoid criminal liability. now, one of the things that i think will safeguard us, even if he is elected again, is that most of the statutes of limitation are for five years,

and so even if he were to serve another four years, by the time he gets out, the statute of limitations will not have run in 2025, on some of these incidents that are occurring now, and so in that early window, there is room. but for so many other reasons, if we want to restore the rule of law in this country, if we care about an independent department of justice, we need to get trump and william barr out of this administration as quickly as possible. >> we need to get them -- we'll probably to get to more tomorrow. hard to do it even in two hours. my panel will be right back. and up next, i will ask this great panel for their expert opinions on whether police will finally face accountability, accountability for their actions. stay right there. accountability for their actions. stay right there i just love hitting the open road and telling people

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can't sleep peacefully at night and he can't either. >> on the same day that protesters gathered outside the home of kentucky senator mitch mcconnell, demanding justice for breonna taylor, the mayor of louisville, kentucky, announced that one of the officers involved in taylor's shooting will be fired. the other two are still on administrative reassignment. taylor was sleeping when police burst into her home, after midnight, in a botched raid, in march. her boyfriend, a licensed gun owner who thought it was a robbery, wounded an officer. in response, police fired more than 25 shots, killing breonna. meanwhile, in atlanta, on wednesday, fultton county district attorney paul howard announced charges against the two officers involved in the death of rayshard brooks. the 27-year-old was shot in the back as he fled from police, after 911 was called, because he had fallen asleep in his car, in a wendy's drive through. but how likely is it that any of these officers will actually be convicted? joyce paul and barbara are back

with me. paul butler you wrote for the "washington post," it is not easy to convict cops so start with structural reforms. do you think any of these cases in your view will result in convictions and what needs to change so that that is made possible? >> i hope that all of these killer cops are brought to justice. the facts are that in the last 50 years, somewhere around 100 cops have been charged with murder, and fewer than three have been convicted of murder. these are difficult cases for the prosecution. if we think about the case in atlanta, we know that the defense in these cases, with white cops shoot african-americans, it is to blame the victim, so the jurors will be told that mr. brooks should not have resisted. he shouldn't have fought the officer. he shouldn't have taken the taser. he shouldn't have aimed the

taser. and while that's not a defense to murder, under the law, it might carry sway with some jurors. >> and we already see the attorney for one of the two officers, devin bros nan, doing public relations and seeding his side of the story, let's hear you listen to msnbc, on thursday, here is the attorney for officer devin brosnan explaining why his foot was on rayshard. on his shoulder that he lay down, dying. >> if you look at the video, as officer brosnan approaches, and officer rolfe is already there, he doesn't even know that officer, that mr. brooks has been shot at first. he didn't even realize that at first. devin. and he goes thrum and he's trying to figure out, is this scene secure, is it safe, he knows that his taser has been taken from him. and you can't see any blood at

that point, i mean being overly graphic here, so he puts his foot, and he told the d.a. this, he put his foot he thought on his hand or his arm to make sure he couldn't get a weapon because he didn't know what the situation was. >> and now let's listen to devin brosnan speaking for himself. here he is. >> the initial account of him, i felt he was friendly, he was respectful, you know, i was respectful to him, and i felt like he seemed like someone who potentially needed my help, and i was really there just to see what we could do for him to make sure he was safe. >> i mean joyce, this is the pr that they're doing to make sure that the jury, that they vor dire a jury that will buy that. what is your view? >> this is really i think a bizarre sort of a situation, joy. i feel like we have just heard the defense lawyer's closing

argument on national television before the case is even indicted. what paul says holds true, and i have this happen twice in case, not involving deaths, but involving police officers who inflicted grievous bodily injury on people, on citizens they had approached and juries are re hesitant to convict a police officer. it takes a unanimous jury to convict in a criminal case. it's hard to get those convictions. i wonder if the mood in the country has changed where the jury will listen more critically to the police officer's explanation. but likely, it will still come down to a defense that the police officers acted within standard operating procedure, and what we're really overdue for in this country is a new look, a redefinition of when deadly force can be used by police. >> the magic words, i fear for my life, i thought he had a gun, it works almost every time.

if you look at the statistics, cnbc folks have done this piece, police are almost never charged with excessive force, 99% resulted in no charges according it a mapping police violence. let me now have you all listen to the attorney again, and this is on claim that he's, brosnan, that officer brosnan is acting as a state's witness which was quickly refuted by his attorney and this is going to come to you barbara, but take a listen. >> there seems to be some misunderstanding on the prosecutor's part, we have been cooperative with the district attorney's office, we spent three hours with them, two days ago, answering all of their questions, he's not a state's witness, or a defense witness, he's a witness. he's going to answer anybody's questions accurately. and if officer rolfe subpoenas him, he will answer his questions. right now, the d.a. has charged him with a crime. so he's a defendant. and he's not going to answer,

you know, the d.a.'s questions, you know, while they bring these false charges against him. >> and here is district attorney paul howard, on that conflicting claim of whether or not this man is a witness. take a listen. >> as i've said many times, we will stick to our statements at the press conference of the presentation. i spoke with the attorney for mr. brosnan, shortly before the presentation, and i'm sure what he communicated to me at that time, but i do understand that this young officer is under a lot of pressure, pressure from his colleagues, and quite possibly from the police union, so i could understand why he's making some of the statements that he's made today, but we still stand by what we announced at the press conference. >> barbara, is this the blue

wall of silence in action? you saw police officers walk off, stay home, have a sick out, a blue flu in response to these charges. i'm sure the pressure on this guy is enormous, from, you know, the family, not to turn on his fellow officer. >> yes, that's something that you see -- >> sometimes -- >> we are having problems with barbara's -- >> in this case -- >> hold on, i think we're losing your camera, barbara. i'm going to go to paul while we try to fix your audio. paul, officers don't really testify against each other. there is enormous pressure on the police union and this guy is acquitted and he is likely to be a police officer in this community or somewhere else because even if he is charged with such heinous crimes, that never stopped a police officer from getting another job. look at the police officer who killed tamir rice.

>> the officer who killed tamir rice was hired by one department who said they didn't know about the officer's involvement of killing a 12-year-old child and another department hired the officer and they said they knew but they didn't care and when we think about how to transform police departments, we have to think about hope, not just reform, but because, in atlanta, we see these, at least one killer cop take mr. brooks' life, but this is the city where two weeks ago, we saw other cops yank two college kids out of a car, and tase them. so this is warrior culture on steroids in atlanta. and beyond just criminal prosecutions of bad apple cops. we have to look at reforms that will transform that department. >> and barbara, we have you back, apparently we have your audio back and i think that's the point, you and yourself, joyce, were signatories to the piece in "usa today" saying the

reform idea that we have to start with changing the culture to more of a guardian culture. it is a warrior culture, police are approaching the public, particularly black people in the public as if they are at war, and as if they are they are on war, as if they are on enemy ground norkts as if they're dealing with fellow american americans. >> a great example of that is where they disbanned and then reformed. the police chief, the head of that effort, has said that culture eats policy for lunch. you can change the rules. you can change the training. it is really all about a transformational culture where, instead of thinking of themselves as warriors of society, police officers need to think of themselves as guardians of communities. and if that means the defund effort to completely transform

departments, start over. they rehired some of those officers who fit that model and some didn't want to do those jobs. we need to look at union contracts and what they collect. i'm certainly a believer of collective bargaining and agetting a fare wage. $36,000 a year in the city of detroit starting salary. we need people to advocate for police officers to get paid and for wellness. when it comes to allowing a three-day grace period before they have to answer questions of investigators or police unions getting in the way of those kinds of investigations, there are a lot of things about that culture that protects police officers from being held accountable and those are the things that need to change. >> yeah. you know, joyce, there is a sense that police officers operate to the side of the law, that they can do almost anything and because they've got those strong union contracts, they can get away with it, including kill people. >> yeah, that is a major problem. joy, i've seen cases where police chiefs have fired

officers who engaged in excessive force and then had to rehire them after their cases resulted in acquittal. as barb quotes the camden chief it's absolutely true that culture eats policy for lunch. the only way we can transform the culture is if we really have top/down leadership in this area. not surprisingly under the obama administration a solid tool kit of policy was developed with evidence-based best practices that departments could use to rebuild their relationships with community to engage in protection and service instead of this sort of materialistic approach that whoa see all too often. unfortunately, the trump administration shelved those policy proposals, never put any of them in place. now we're overdue to transform police departments. >> yeah. well, donald trump all but endorsed the idea of police brutality in a speech in front

of police officers. so we know where he stands on it. federal law would be nice, more training and more grants. paul vans. a federal judge has denied president trump's request to suppress his national security adviser john bolton's tell-all book. the judge criticized bolton for gambling with the national security of the united states with his book but an injunction against the book would not prevent that harm. wow! senator cory booker joins us to talk police reform, juneteenth and a late-night attempt to fire a federal prosecutor who is investigating trump. so much news. more "many joy after the break. . when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to.

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i don't know how to tell people that the nation is not racist. i'll try again. we're not a racist country. we deal with racism because there's racism in the country. both are mutually true. >> good morning and welcome back to "a.m. joy," the lone black republican senator, tim scott, to hear him tell it, the u.s. does not suffer from systemic racism. a legacy of deeply engrained structural racism.

the bad stuff sort of went poof overnight when the laws were changed if, of course, they did change. perhaps that's why mr. scott and his republican colleagues released a police reform bill that was pretty light on the actual reform. the republican bill is the counteroffer to the democratic bill. the democratic bill would ban choke holds, create a federal misconduct registry and eliminate qualified immunity for state and local law enforcement. the tim scott/gop bill does none of those things. instead it would merely discourage the use of choke holds, something that should probably already be discouraged with the intervention of congress, as well as provide more funding for law enforcement to be used on fresh rounds of de-escalation training. notably does not touch qualified immunity for police officers. the gop also does not ban using no-knock warrants in drug cases.

one of the sponsors of the democratic bill, kamala harris, explained it to me on thursday. >> let's take, for example, the issue of no-knock warrants. br breonna taylor, emergency medical technician asleep in her bed, died and was killed because of a no-knock warrant. we're offering in our bill we would ban no-knock drug warrants. he says let's report it afterwards. >> who needs substantive changes to qualified immunity or no-knock warrants when you could have a museum exhibit. >> in washington, d.c., the museum of african-american history is here. it's underutilized to be able to explain the story of what's the relationship between race and law enforcement. this is a way to be able to incentivize, how can we use that great resource to be able to tell the story nationwide as

well. >> ah, yes, in this exhibit, members of the public, a friendly choke hold. maybe don't use it, unless you really want to. meanwhile it's not just republicans in congress who are woefully derelict in their duties. friday, attorney general barr tried to fire jeff berman, who happens to be leading an investigation into rudy giuliani and who successfully indicted michael cohen. berman says he's not going anywhere, at least not until his replacement is confirmed by the senate. cory booker, who serves on the judiciary committee, joins us. i'm going to start with the breaking news we just announced over the last break, that a federal judge has declined donald trump's request or demand to block john bolton's book.

those will come out for anyone who wants to pay john bolton. your thoughts on that? >> it's a pattern of corruption in this administration and we've seen this accelerating since the impeachment trial where he's trying to take out all objective accountability on his administration. here you have attorney general barr acting in accordance with that corruption, trying to do, which any fair reading of the statute says he can't do. you cannot fire this u.s. attorney appoint bid judges. you cannot replace them until the president nominates somebody and they are confirmed by the senate. so, this is, again, despicable practices by folks who do not want -- or want to dismantle any systems of accountability that will give a fair, objective reading on the corrupt practices of this administration. >> and how fast do you think mitch mcconnell will rush donald trump's s.e.c. guy, who has no

prosecutorial experience, rush through that confirmation on a party-line vote? >> mitch mcconnell is showing more and more his willingness to do donald trump's sort of bidding. and we are a co-equal branch of government, yet he seems to want to do everything he can to undermine our independence in the united states senate and to comply with the president and his, again, corrupt practices. this is a senate that should have spoken out and done more when the president of the united states turned on peaceful protesters in the shadow of the white house, as former cabinet members criticized that. the senate has done nothing. this is a senate that should have spoken up when inspector generals were removed from their positions, something that this senate relies heavily on. but we did nothing. and this will be yet another example of mitch mcconnell doing the bidding of a president to

undermining all sense of objective analysis and oversight that we in the united states senate should have. >> we know that john bolton refused to testify. he sue d about testifying befor the impeachment committee. however in his book, as it says in "the new york times," he dumps his notes and smites his enemies. in other words, he took his notes and saved them to sell them to the american people. one of those things he took note on was donald trump telling the oug autocrat of turkey, erdogan, that the friendly, to him, would get off, have no more problems once he replaced the obama people in the justice department with his own people. should john bolton testify before your committee, before

the senate joushry committee and should william barr? will you attempt to get either/or both of them to do so? >> it goes without saying that this accusation, as well as others from a highly regarded republican operative, someone who was, before he served in the trump administration like so many people, had a lot of respect from republicans is now makes these stunning charges, all of which implicate criminal activity. and, of course, they should testify. of course he should testify. but, again, so much of the soul of the republican party has been compromised by going along with someone who folks know, number one, these things that donald trump is consistently doing are wrong, if not illegal. so, again, the senate is controlled, right now, by mitch mcconnell and the republican party. their willingness to go along. activities that they themselves know are wrong is just

inexcusable. and i don't ask for hearings. i have no illusions, given the last few years, that they'll be granted. >> this is the definition of minority rule, right? republicans represent a minority view in the country, and they are -- even in terms of self identification, they are the political minority in the country. the majority of americans per the reuters poll showed 82% of americans want to see choke holds banned. 92% want to see body cameras required by police. 78% would like to, at least in part, defund police departments and move that money to social service programs. and the support for banning choke holds is bipartisan. you have majorities of republicans, independents and democrats all support bang this practice. yet here is, to your very point, senator mitch mcconnell, who speaks from the minority

viewpoint talking about the bill. mirror bills in the senate and the house. this is what he says of at least the house bill. >> the house vrgs is going nowhere in the senate. it's basically typical democrat ic overreach to try to control everything in washington. we have no interest in that. we're serious about making a law here. this is not about trying to create partisan differences. this about coming together and getting an outcome. >> senator, you know, listening -- i listened to the entire press conference by senator tim scott. there was no policy in it. it was all grants and suggestions. there was nothing in it that had any teeth whatsoever. does it offend you personally as not just a united states senator but an african-american senator for mitch mcconnell and friends to hide behind tim scott to essentially offer nothing and say it is the only game in town? >> it's difficult for me to

watch mitch mcconnell in this kind of reform. the pressure that had to be put on him to put forward the justice reform bill that liberated thousands of americans from prison. he wants to check a box and accomplish very little in terms of real reforms. his accusations that this is somehow nationalizing of police is absurd. this is banning practices that constitute real violations of people's civil rights. we should not have a country that does choke holds, that does racial and religious profiling, that does no-knock warrants. these are banning practices like we've done in so many areas of our country. and that's what's very frustrating to me. because he wants to turn this page, get into a defense authorization bill and we will find ourselves, do it the mitch mcconnell way.

we will find ourselves with a country that's not changed cultures, practices and still has too many unarmed african-americans being killed by police while they sleep, killed by police in horrible carotic holds, killed by police at levels that should be alarming to everyone. >> we have asked for senator tim scott who is welcome to come on the show any time. he has not said yes yet. hopefully, he will come on and we can talk about his bill. there's another bill you are part of, an anti-lynching bill which shockingly there is no federal law against lynching. you proposed this law in june. here is rand paul, opposing it. >> i seem to amend this legislation not because i take it or i take lynching lightly, but because i take it seriously, and this legislation does not. this bill would cheapen the meaning of lynching by defining it so broadly as to include a

minor bruise or abrasion. >> do you think that rand paul would object to using a federal lynching legislation in the ahmaud arbery case? what does he object to? does he explain that? >> what he said on the floor made no sense and didn't work with facts. one senator right now that is blocking the will of not the democrats in the house of representatives. it passed with only four objectors, four republican objectors and 99 senators all want to get this done, and he is standing in the way, not just of this congress, but this has been a century of work, over 200 times this legislation has come up to ban lynching. one person right now is stopping what would be, for this country, not only establishing law for the future, but actually acknowledging the grovoue o gri

heinous, wretched past to protect its citizenry. it's outrageous and acceptable. it's been a week or two, everything from this to the blocking of the removal of confederate statues from statutory hall. there's so many issues that deal with racial justice, with protecting of citizenry, of condemning white supremacy that continue to be blocked in the senate. and this has got to come to an end. >> speaking of dealing with the past, you are part of a couple of bills that could actually make a sea change in at least the way the country looks at this history. there is a bill yourself, kamala harris, ed markey and yourself are on to make juneteenth a federal holiday. there's also a bill that you proposed, i believe, last year that has 12 co-sponsors that would look at the question of reparations. i ask you this question because oklahoma city, if there was ever a case that seems like an

obvious reparations case, it would be the greenwood massacre in which insurance companies refused to pay claims, in which people were interned after that massacre happened. there's never been recompensate against those people. >> the challenge with our country right now is we seem to think whitewashing our history, by eliminating all the wretched violence of the past somehow makes us a better country, makes us a lesser country when we don't confront our history. we are a nation that have festering wounds that need to be addressed and acknowledged. and so the work i'm doing, along with kamala harris, in terms of juneteenth, i think senator markey and senator smith now understand that we have to confront our history. we have to address it.

to have a reparations bill with chuck schumer, one of the senators that joined the reparations bill, this is a significant time for us as a nation to take a moment and begin to fully examine and confront our history. there are massacres in this country, all over, that most people don't even know existed. and this is one of them. i want to confess, i grew up listening to stories on african-americans about the bombing of black wall street. it wasn't even until i visited it that i realized it was 35-plus blocks. it was arial bombing in the united states well before pearl harbor. it is such a singular act of viciousness and cruelty where you can actually measure the economic devastation it did specifically to families beyond the incalculable damage of murders that went along. this is not an isolated reality in america. we know this from the

documentation of over 4,400 lirchlings that went on. we know this from the illegal seizures of property. we know this from the destruction of businesses and other livelihoods and for us to not, as a country, to confront these issues, to have some kind of truth and reconciliation is to really allow so much of the wounds in our nation and the challenges of our country to continue to fester. so our bill is a reasonable one. it asks to come together some of the best minds in our country and to begin to unpack and study the best way to move forward to address these past harms. >> and i appreciate you explaining all of that. i've got to ask you, given that donald trump will be speaking not far from where black wall street once stood, what are you expecting to hear tonight? what do you expect to happen tonight? >> look, i utterly have no

expectations anymore from this president. it's almost as if he tries to continue to rub salt in the wounds of black america. he seems to find the fault lines that trigger so much of the emotional pain in this country. so i just have no expectations. i'm counting the days until this next election, which is not a referendum on him. it's a referendum on who we are as a nation, to each other. are we going to be a loving society that has leaders, as people have said, that even try, that want to see sincerely our country be healed? this is a referendum about who we are as a nation. i say we're a country that strives for love and unity. we have a lot of work to get there. this president has no intention of heal iing or bringing us together. >> very quickly, we are out of time. but are you worried about violence? he has said that he would pay the bills of people who hurt protesters, that he would pay their legal bills if he hurt

people. are you worried that violence will spring up? >> we've seen in the last three weeks that this president has done things like turning on to peaceful protesters that are, in and of themselves, violent. i'm praying for peace. it's hard, but i'm praying for a president who seems intent on drawing conflict into our country. i'm just praying for the best in this. but we have so much work to do, and he is, like george wallace did, like connor has done in the past, he is one of those people who is instigating an awareness, an awakening in our country of how much unfinished business we have to do. and i'm hoping that somehow, from his darkness, inspires deeper empathy and compassion, greater circles of purpose to heal this nation's unfinished business, address this nation's unaddressed wounds. >> the unflirchli unflinchingly

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when eric was murdered by nypd in 2014, after i sat and i cried for a while i says, no, this is not going to get it. we are going to get out here. i'm going to get out here and we're going to get something done. we've got to wake up america. we've got to make america uncomfortable, like we've been uncomfortable for over 400 year years. >> powerful words from the mother of eric garner, gwen carr who less than two weeks later was on site with governor andrew cuomo when he signed new york's say their name reform laws, which ban choke holds like the one that killed her son. miss carr is a member of a club no one wants to join, black mothers whose sons have been

killed by police, mothers whose son was killed in 1999 by four nypd officers who fired their guns 41 times. he was unarmed and reaching for his wallet when police opened fire. all four police officers were charged with second-degree murder, but a jury found them not guilty. joining me now is president of the foundation, g well. n carr, eric gar nechgarner's m. it's always an honor to talk with you, mrs. dialo and mrs. carr. i've seen you at various events where you've shown up for other moms, other dads, other parents and family members of murdered young people. so, you've always been wonderful in giving of yourselves that way. i want to start with you.

this is a "newsweek" piece called who was amadou diallo and why is the story of his death still relevant? this is a quote from bill clinton. i don't pretend for a moment to second guess the jury but if i know most people in america of all races believe that if it had been a young white man in an all-white neighborhood it probably wouldn't have happened. do you think things have changed in the way that a jury will look at a police shooting now in the wake of what we've seen with george floyd and all these protests? >> thank you for having me, joy. i am so honored to be talking in this platform with gwen carr and is a sister and belongs to this club that no one wants to be part of. since amadou was killed, my life has been changed forever. i traveled these roads and met

some families. i attended the funeral for eric garner. nothing has changed. changes was implemented, but then it was like a bandaid just to try to pretend that we are going to have the in-depth change, that the community asked for, that the people asked for. and how many people have been killed since amadou? how many? how many have been victimized like my child? changes has not happened. and we need more changes. and right now, people are up since the george floyd killing. it has galvannized the world. young people of today are p protesting and demanding we should have the change we've been waiting for since 21 years ago and even before. >> one thing that hasn't changed is the attitude of certain parts

of government toward police versus towards these victims. donald trump's reaction toward these police killings sounds a lot like rudy giuliani's, quite frankly, when he was mayor of new york. is that symmetry in my head or do you see that same symmetry? >> me? >> mrs. diallo. >> that is for me? >> yes. >> i'm speaking from the perspective of a mother who has lost her child. i think -- politics -- to handle this situation -- business as usual. >> and i think we're losing mrs. diallo's audio. i'll hold off on mrs. diallo. we'll fix your audio first. i'm going to go to gwen carr.

i want to play for you yourself, speaking about the push for justice. and this is on the next steps you've said you want to see on criminal justice reform -- or police reform. okay. let me just read it. last week i stood alongside governor cuomo as he signed a measure, reversing an odious law, that has kept police records sealed from the public for decades. it is particularly significant for me because of how challenging it was to get the police records i needed to demand accountability for eric's death. governor cuomo has signed the save their name reform act. you were in attendance. it provides transparency for disciplinary records, no choke holds, false race-based 911 reports would then be a crime and attorney general as an independent prosecutor for police murders. are these changes that you think will decrease the number of black men and women and, unfortunately, children who die at the hands of police?

gwen carr? >> well, we hope so. we fought hard as mothers for these laws to be passed. since the bill has been -- sorry. since the bill has been signed, we need those legislators being held to the fire so they can enforce -- a bill will be no good if they're not enforced. going forward, we are going to try to see to it that the lawmakers keep their promise. >> and for you, the george floyd case, had to be particularly difficult. you know "i can't breathe" became the thing we so associated with your beloved son. and here we are again.

what do you make of the fact that police are not responding to the outrage of changed bafr? >> no, because no one is holding them accountable. if their superiors would hold them accountable, it wouldn't be so much terrorizing and brutalizing in our neighborhoods. that's why we need laws changed. the people are watching. it's like a boomerang. when my son was murdered, the marching was out there also. there were millions and millions of people marching all around the nation, even in other countries. then the cameras went away, the people went away. but even when the people and the cameras go away, we have to keep on doing what we're doing, because if we want laws changed, we can't depend on anyone except ourselves and the ones who stand behind us after the cameras are gone. >> yeah. >> so we know that marching is just to bring awareness about there's a problem. but after the marching, we have

to have legislation. this is what we're hoping to get no now. >> mark, i asked senator booker about that. a lot of them were up for re-election who essentially is offering nothing. they're using him as a human shield to essentially say you get nothing. what do you make of that? some of these republicans are in vulnerable spots. they're still insisting that all of these activists get nothing. >> thank you for having me, joy. let me just say it's always an honor to be with these mothers. i can't help but get emotional when i hear their voices, because they both walked away from their own son's tombs the way the first women who preached the gospel walked away from christ's tomb, still preaching good news, still trying to keep us motivated and organized, even when the cameras go home. with republicans, you're right,

what they offer is absolutely nothing. they still seem to be controlled by the campaign donations of the fraternal order of police. that is why we've got to be more disciplined than to only have a movement on social media. the struggle is in the local communities. where the police are truly governed and over seen in the local communities. people will have to get their hands dirty locally. that's not always very popular or sexy. but that's what will be necessary. we're going to have to build on the alliship of the national community that's with us. we're going to have to have the international community, joy, to treat america the way the international community treated south africa. the african countries just this week were beat down. they stood their ground on a commission of human inquiry, a commission of inquiry in the human rights community, human rights council.

the european nation said no, we're going to settle for a report. but that's still enough that we can, at some point say, that if you don't change america, america, if you don't change we're going to ask the community to divest from america the way we had to do with south africa. thank you for moderating our reparations forum last night. i heard you talk to the senator about that. this is reparations. hr-40 that now exists deals with the vestiges of slavery, including jim crow lynchings, and modern day police lynchings and for those who say reparations struggle isn't for all, the nypd didn't wait to find out whether amadou diallo was a direct descendent from a slave. we all share the same blood and

the same dna. when we talk about reparations, it has to include any of us who was impacted by these vestiges like amadou diallo. >> george floyd's brother did testify at that human rights council hearing. and i'm going to give mrs. diallo, we have your audio back. i'll give you the last word, ma'am. >> yes, joy, sorry about the audio. gwen carr, when the governor signed those bills, that effort, like over 20 families in new york city, including grass roots organizations that rallied and demanded those laws being applied. it's not just the laws. it's also about people's mind-sets, to open their hearts and understand and the whole criminal justice system needs to be revisited because you have millions and millions of victims serving in prison and their life and their families lives have been altered forever.

we will not give up because our children should not die in vain. and these laws that have been proposed right now and implemented is just not in our communities are asking for more changes and communities are asking for funding to develop programs so that policies can not be suspended in new york city and nationwide. we have to continue. thank you for having us today. we need to continue our work. and i hope that the young people will connect with us because they are the driving force of this movement today. >> kadiatou diallo and gwen carr, it is always a pleasure to speak with you. your children should still be here today. my friend reverend mark thomas. reverend dr. mark thomas, i'll give you a reverend doctor this morning. thank you for all the hard work you do on reparations. thank you, all.

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we have to get serious about mr. barr, who is totally lawless and is turning the attorney general's office not just into a legal office of the president but legal office into the president's crimes. >> house judiciary committee jerry nadler seemed to be reading the tea leaves earlier this week, foreshadowing the standoff with the justice department. attorney general barr trying to fire via press release jeffrey berman, prosecutor in new york. push back saying, i have learned in a press release i was stepping down. i have not resigned and have no intention of resigning.

hard to fathom what's happening inside doj. in recent months, prosecutors quit the stone case after barr intervened. prosecutor quit the flynn case after barr intervened. sdny refused to quit after barr threatened to remove. agree to testify about barr interference. >> we see these things in silos sometimes. there's this level of turmoil inside the justice department that really is hard to fathom. you don't often see resistance of any kind by officials still in their positions, in their jobs, yet we see it with some frequency now, with the exclamation point yesterday when the u.s. attorney says you're trying to fire me.

i'm not going anywhere. >> you know, matt, just put up a list of trump associates who were looked at by the sdny, michael cohen, who donald trump turned on because he actually told the truth about what trump was doing, rudy giuliani, who was executing the whole ukraine whatever that was, trying to strong arm a foreign country into giving him dirt on joe biden. igor fruman and lev parnas, who were helping him do that. it's hard not to imagine that william barr is attempting to decapitate investigations that would hurt donald trump and his friends, and maybe the flip side of that, to go after donald trump's enemies. that is regime behavior. have you ever heard of or seen anything like this in a department of justice? >> no, not at all. i think this far surpasses scandals we've seen before the department of justice in previous administrations when you take this action along with everything else that barr has done in his year and a half with

the department. i think this is obviously a corrupt action by the attorney general and by the president, that barr would have lied about berman retiring last night in his statement if it wasn't so. 14 hours after this controversy broke, they still haven't supplied a reason. that tells you that there is something that doesn't add up there. and i think the question is what. one way of looking at it is jeff berman is a u.s. attorney who, despite being a trump backer, has been very independent. has pursued investigations, as you note, that the president doesn't like. they might have decided five months before the election, it's too great of a risk to have someone in such a power position who tonight take orders from bill barr when those orders are inappropriate and doesn't try to cover up for the president. and they have to remove him. the other interpretation is that there's something imminent, that the u.s. attorneys office sent a subpoena, or called someone in for testimony and are prepared to take action that went up to barr and barr was worried about the consequences and they have to remove him to stop something

from happening. we obviously don't know the answer. it's hard to look at this action on its face and come up with any noncorrupt, nonnefarious justification for what the attorney general has tried to do. >> kyle, tell us what threads you're pulling on right now. is there something imminent coming down the pike that donald trump doesn't want to see break before the election? you do have a case before the supreme court that's about whether donald trump's taxes can be divulged. whether tax evasion or money laundering, lots of questions swirling around the money. and bill barr has appointed himself as donald trump's protector rather than the protector of the law. so, are there any threads that you're pulling right now as to what it could be specifically? >> yes. well, you played the clip of chairman nadler. he had a hearing on wednesday that was already scheduled about two sitting officials in the justice department to testify about whether bill barr has been interfering for political reasons. he's now inviting jeffrey berman

to show up at that hearing. whether he will is something we need to find out this weekend. that could be a bombshell, explosive moment if someone at sdny, berman's office, is willing to speak to what's going on in there and what they think is really going on and maybe even protect themselves by indicating what they're working on that may be so sensitive. >> matt, i have to ask you, w l while i have you here, for your comment on the fact that the ju judiciary branch seems to be fighting back a little bit. you had two supreme court rulings, one on daca, affirming that donald trump can't just get rid of it and kick out some 700,000 young people out of the country, and on lgbt rights, whether or not people can be fired simply because of who they are. donald trump lost that one 6-3. is there a sense that the judiciary -- now you have this new decision by a judge that the bolton book can go forward, that

trump cannot block john bolton from selling his wares, selling the things that he took copious notes on that took place during the administration. what do you make of that? >> i hope so. look, there are times that the judiciary, including the supreme court, has been willing to bend over backwards for the president, the ruling on the travel ban, first and foremost. there's a line that john roberts has shown he's not willing to cross and if the president does something that's not believable, as was true in the daca case, they're not going to stand for that. that is relevant in this, you know, attempted firing or attempted removal of the u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york. as he made clear in this statement, he was aappointmeppo by the trump administration but was reupped and confirmed by the court in the southern district of new york. his argument is because he was appointed by that court, he can

only be removed by that court unless there's a senate confirmed replacement which, of course, there isn't and won't be any time soon. this is a legal question that if bill barr proceeds in trying to remove berman from office, it could work its way all the way up to the supreme court and we'll see how they are willing to bless, overlook or stop what i thempg is a blatantly corrupt act by the administration. >> we shall see. it is interesting, but interesting in a bad way. matthew miller, kyle cheney, thank you for your time. actress and activist, this is going to be fun, will join me live. s and activist, this is going to be fun, will join me live

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say something. do something. get into trouble, necessary trouble. >> the iconic civil rights leader john lewis is the subject of a new documentary aptly titled "john lewis: good trouble." it premiered in tulsa, oklahoma, yesterday on juneteenth. this year's celebrations saw thousands of jubilant celebrations all over the country, with black, brown and white folks taking to the streets in honor of america's black independence day. the companies behind "john lewis: good trouble" are launching the good trouble campaign and supporting voting rights. my favorite thing besides talking to erica. erica alexander, actress, produce producer, behind "john lewis: good trouble." hey, girl, how are you? >> joy to the world, we're getting in good trouble every day, especially on the weekend. hello "am joy." >> hey, hey, hey.

i have to play another clip from good trouble. here it is, john lewis talking about voting rights. >> are you with me? >> yeah. >> let me hear you. three civil rights workers have been murdered for helping people get registered to vote are looking down on us. >> this is a time for action. that's what i learned from john lewis. >> there are forces that are trying to take us back but we are not going back. we are going forward! >> it is amazing to thing about what he and other activists who were young, in their 20s, physically sacrificed in order for plaque people to be able to vote 100 years after the civil war. when you see all of these people out in the streets, including in kentucky, outside mitch mcconnell's home, marching all over the country, do you see that theme translated into going to the ballot box and marching to the ballot box? do you feel that's what's going

to happen? >> yes, i do. listen, john lewis earned his good trouble moniker and icon status the hard way. he committed his life to the fight for civil rights, justice for all in america. he did it without malice. he did it with courage of his convictions, on a philosophy of nonviolence, peaceful protests and love for the beloved community. that's what you're seeing, beloved communities coming out and saying with one huge voice, we're not going to take it anymore, and we must make this about voting and fairness, because that's the cornerstone of a great democracy and that's what we're going to be. if we're going to be everlasting, we have to do it and i believe that's going to pay off absolutely. we have to do in balloughts and people are learning, getting a great civics lesson. thanks to the people like john lewis and are still there doing their good trouble work, i appreciate it. >> and tell us what people are

going to learn from this documentary "good trouble." >> well, john porter is our filmmaker, one of the best documentary filmmakers of the generation. she's incredibly kind. we got participant media in magnolia in there. what they're going to learn is about a man who, for so many years, was next to other people. martin luther king, robert f. kennedy. but he's in the spotlight. he gets to tell his story, show you his family. you see him feeding the chickens. you get to learn about what a life of good trouble is, the sacrifice. you get to see his son, john miles, and talk about his wife run for congress. you get to learn about a man whose destiny came from a life that was dakinsian. but also being committed to this type of existence is a sacrifice in love for greater thing than themselves.

and that's who he is. >> and when you look at, you know, what's happening in kentucky right now, they're gearing up for a really tough tuesday because i think there are 3700 -- there used to be 3700 polling places in kentucky. there are only going to be 200 on tuesday. you still see people, you know, messing with the right of black people to vote, despite all the sacrifices. you know, what does he make of that? did you talk to him about that? does he get discouraged when he sees this ongoing voter suppression, this ongoing fight against civil rights for black people? >> you know, the amazing thing -- and you met him several times, joy, and you know. he has an amazing, i think, resilience and positivity around him. he is the most -- he's just a light. and so i imagine in his darkest hours he may think like that, but he does not talk like that.

he knows that the most powerful nonviolent tool for change in this movement is the right to vote. so he works hard to defend it. and he stays in a place of optimism so he can get the work done. he is proof of life that not only doing this work and being in this work, it starts to transform you in a spiritual way. have the philosophy of nonviolence and love and peace comes from, again, an understanding of this work has to go past you. you might not live to see the result but you must work toward it. thank god for him. i get down every day but he seems to keep moving on. that's what i'm going to take from it, too. >> yeah. and i know that there's so many people working toward the idea of reparations, whether it's sheila jackson lee in the house, cory booker, kamala harris in the senate.

there's all these efforts. wouldn't it be an interesting first step toward that if the edmund pettus bridge, we just saw him standing in front of that bridge, would be renamed john lewis? i know there's a petition to that end. that would be a good start. >> that would be a great start. martin luther called him the boy from troy and gave him that moniker. what solidified his life in world and more important an example of the great sacrifice was that day when he was on the edmund pettus bridge and got his skull cracked in and nearly killed him. he survived all that and so, yes, they should name that bridge after him, as an honor and a tribute. they're tearing down all these other confederate statues and whatnot. they need to put up some -- >> i want to thank actress and activist, filmmaker and great person, erica alexander. kudos to you on the work you're

doing with the poor people's campaign. thank you so much, sister. really appreciate you. have a great saturday. that is "am joy" for today. see, i told you we would end on an up note. that is it for today. i'll be back tomorrow -- not tomorrow. tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern for more on this juneteenth end. we'll be covering donald trump's rally in tulsa, oklahoma, as el. stay tuned for my friend, alex witt who picks it up from here. x witt who picks it up from here nice. way more unique fixtures and tiles. pairing. ♪ nice. way more top brands in sinks and faucets. way more ways to rule your renovation. nice! on any budget, with free shipping. wayfair. way more than furniture.

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good day, everyone. just about to hit high noon here in the east. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." bolton book decision. a short time ago the judge weighing in on a publication of a white house memoir. standoff at the justice department. william barr versus the u.s. attorney investigating trump associates. hours to go. the tension in tulsa, as the president gets ready for his controversial campaign rally. plus the words that did not come easy for the vice president. >> if those are words that you will utter right here, right here today, black lives matter, can you say those words? >> well, brian, let me say what happened to george floyd was a tragedy. >> and the push for police reform, whether real change is in the works and what it's starting to look like.