we're back with our continuing coverage of a split screen moment in donald trump's presidency. trump, just wrapping up a rally with a crowd of supporters much, much smaller, tinier, he might say, than he and his campaign anticipated. and publicly announced. which he reached to the depths of his usual rhetoric, including some race bating. black live matters protestors has gathered in acknowledgment of this moment of national reckoning on racism playing out across the country. it's all happening despite the

threat of coronavirus, which is now breaking records in oklahoma and other states across the southern u.s. and the convergence of all of it is in tulsa right now, at this hour. trumpism, racism, and a pandemic. let's bring back our very own nbc news correspondent, cal perry, live, for us on the ground in tulsa. cal, tell me everything. >> hey, nicolle. well, listen. as trump is giving the speech inside, there is a group of black lives matter protestors. they're walking in parallel, around the arena. the tulsa police actually just tweeted out that they're causing some traffic jams, but are doing so completely peacefully. i have been joined by a group. i pulled one person and i got three so i'm very lucky. so let me just ask you guys, first, are you nervous at all about violence happening? i was in greenwood yesterday. it was totally peaceful. but i see some folks here with guns. are you worried about the trump supporters coming out here and causing trouble? >> that was never even a concern of mine. >> never? >> no. they have a right to be here, just as much as i do. that's -- >> you know, i want to say why we called for the protests.

i'm with refuse fascism. we are part of organizing nationwide protests today, the trump/pence regime must go now. we came to tulsa because donald trump, he is an open white supremacist. this is an open white supremacist rally. and america's at a crossroads right now. are people going to sit at home and hope that politics, as usual, is going to stop this? as trump threatens to bring out the military on peaceful protestors, as he maneuvers elections? and we're calling on people all over this country to do like what they do in every single other country. be in the streets, nonviolent, sustained protests, not stopping until the regime is gone. >> this is all happening in the middle of a pandemic. are you guys worried about the coronavirus? >> you know what i am worried about? i'm worried about what's going to happen to black and brown people. >> i'm worried about if i get pulled over tonight, am i going to make it home safely? that's what i'm worried about. yeah. >> do you think the movement has what it needs? it's been incredible.

do you think this momentum is going to continue? >> we are not stopping until we get change, period. every week and every day, we will not stop until we get change. >> do you think donald trump picked this city -- >> yes, intentionally. >> 99 years ago, the tulsa race riots happened, here. juneteenth. why -- why would you do that? you knew intentionally. and then, you said you made it famous? no, we knew oh who it was, it was people like you who didn't know. we educated and told you. and you tried to because you're selfish and you're greedy and you like attention. there's nothing new. >> this is somebody -- trump -- trump is somebody so racist, that he still upholds pro-confederate military generals. come on. you know? he was -- he's so racist that he called for the execution and death penalty of the central park five, even after they were exonerated, he said that they should still be punished. >> thank you guys very much. and i will say since we have been dipping in and out of the

speech. two things. one, donald trump did mention those confederate monuments. he also went after ilhan omar, and it's worth saying her father died four days ago of the coronavirus. so two very different things, one happening inside, one happening outside. again, depending when the president wraps up his speech, his supporters are going to come on to this street, and hopefully it will only be this verbal confrontation that we've seen. hopefully, won't escalate, nicolle. >> okay. so, cal, usually, you have got all the information. i've got some information for you. on our screen, we have what looks like some of the rallygoers starting to leave so the event has either just wrapped up or is wrapping up. so we're going to come back to you if they make their way toward where you and your guests are right now. thank you so much for that, cal. joining us now is nbc news correspondent, morgan chesky, also, in tulsa. morgan, tell -- tell me everything. tell me anything. >> well, nicolle, we're actually part of that black lives matter protest that cal was mentioning because it's walking in that

circular motion around the arena right now. so, we fell in. i did have a chance to just speak with a gentleman who was inside the rally supporting president trump. he drove here a couple hundred miles to have a chance to be one of the thousands inside that arena tonight to hear the president for the first time in three months. and he was a man of few words. i asked, was it everything you wanted to hear from the president tonight? he said, sure. so we're still hearing from folks as they kind of trickle out from that arena. i can tell you, nicolle, that he's not the only one who made a long drive to get here. over the past several days, i have had a chance to speak to folks who came here from as far as boston, california. descending upon tulsa, oklahoma, because for a lot of them, they say that this is kind of a once-in-a-lifetime event. they said, especially with the election coming up, that this had increased importance. one woman telling me that this was going to be a historic moment because it really marked the return of president trump to the campaign trail, in earnest,

as we approach the upcoming election. we are talking to other trump supporters, president trump's supporters, as they leave this area. but right now, the crowds are dwindling so we'll send it back to you. >> morgan chesky, thank you for your reporting. let's bring in some reporters and friends joining us this hour. "axios" national political reporter, jonathan swan is here. dr. patel, a practicing physician is back with us. and chairman for the center of african-american studies at princeton university, our friend eddie glaude's back. eddie, i want to get to all the politics. but i want to start with something that was just said on our air because i just -- i can't skip past it anymore. because cal perry just interviewed three folks, who were there as part of the black lives matter protest. and one gentleman said i'm here because i don't know, if when i leave here and get in my car, i'm going to make it home. this moment, this fear, and this kind of freedom of fear for saying that out loud.

just, please, talk to me about all three. >> well, it seems to me, a reasonable assumption. this feels like a rally that would raise all sorts of concerns. it it's -- it has this vibe, nicolle. i watched most of the speech. and it feels like he was throwing red meat, stoking hatred. so i can understand why someone would -- would worry about their sense of safety. it felt as if there was -- this was a rally about those -- among those who felt that they were losing control over their country. and, in the history of america, whenever white america feels like it's losing its grip, violence follows. we are -- i've been saying it over and over again. we are at a crossroads. there is a moment in the speech, nicolle, where donald trump says -- said -- they want to punish your thought, not their violent crimes.

right? he was just stoking hatred and fear all night. and it was -- it was actually unsettling. i was waiting to hear rebel yell, actually. >> another thing that was unsettling is something dr. patel, you and i already talked about. trump said this. quote, i told my people slow the testing down, please. saying, quote, testing is double-edged sword because it counts cases. michael bender of "the wall street journal's" reporting that a white house official is saying that trump was clearly joking. and putting out this statement. quote, he's never advised staff to slow testing. we're extremely proud of the 25 million tests we're conducting at a rapid pace. so, dr. patel, i -- i guess it's good that he's joking. but it does represent a new moment in the coronavirus public messaging that the white house officials have to correct the president joking about slowing down testing, in the middle of a campaign rally.

>> yes, not only that, nicolle, it's just morally repugnant that he can joke about this. when, you know, 120,000, potentially 200,000 deaths by october. and a lot of that could have been prevented, we now know. and so, you know, here, you have a president who talks about a double-edged sword, all for his own ego. the double-edged sword is -- there's no triviality to it. you know, months ago, he talked about any american who wanted a test can have a test. and because that doesn't fit into his narrative now, we don't need that many tests. and we know that there are still communities, today -- florida, all across the country -- where people can't get access to tests. and, furthermore, you know, he's just belittling, i think, the seriousness of this by saying -- i've heard even further comments that young people -- you know, this is just young people with sniffles. i mean, this is -- this is serious. talk to the families that have lost somebody. friends. my own colleagues that have died from this. and -- and it's just -- it's --

it's no surprise. but we have to start with the facts. and the facts are that hopefully, some people are listening and that's why you saw fewer people in attendance. and that this virus, those people traveling back to boston and other places. i really hope they pause and think about making sure they're not exposed or exposing themselves to vulnerable populations because that's exactly the scenario that could unfold, as people go home tonight. >> jonathan swan, dr. patel mentioned the smaller-than-expected crowds. i think i first saw the smaller-than-expected crowds on your twitter feed. when you tweeted this. a picture of this, not near empty but, i'd say, maybe a third empty arena. you wrote, quote, i wouldn't be surprised if somebody gets fired over this. just talk to us. remind us how, behind the scenes, how hard they work to give trump what he needs, which is very large, overflowing,

enthusiastic crowds. he didn't get any of that. some of our other friends and colleagues have tweeted about how the president's performance was, i guess, lackluster is the most family-friendly way to say it. >> well, this rally was not the rally that they planned. and it's not the rally that he expected. they had planned, actually, much more than a rally. they'd planned it to be a festival, with both indoor and outdoor spaces, overflow spaces. there was a stage assembled there. the president had originally planned to speak at both the indoor and the outdoor stage. there was going to be musical acts. there was going to be, at one stage, they were thinking it could be 90 to 100,000 people, spread out across this -- the arena. seated -- could -- could hold 19,000 people. so they were, also, touting this number. 1 million.

they said 1 million people had signed up. what, now, i'm hearing from people who are close to the campaign is there's this sort of scramble to figure out what happened. and they believe that, you know, there was a number of people who were signing up with fake names. there's always that, for every rally. but they really miscalculated. to the extent that they had to shut down, effectively, the outdoor area. the president pulled his speech from there. and, look, i was with the president. yesterday, i interviewed him in the oval office and he was very excited about this event as his comeback rally. and, look, i don't claim to have knowledge of his thinking, this minute. but i cannot imagine that it's going to be a pleasant plane ride home, for those who are with him. >> well, i mean, you know better than just about anybody, what the third rail is in trump

world. it isn't the nation's national security. it isn't the integrity of the fbi. it isn't to preserve any diplomatic normalcy. it is to put on a tv show. and his tv show bombed. i mean, what are the scenarios that you're hearing? or what are the calls you're putting out to your sources about what's on -- what could be on the table? >> well, i don't want to -- i don't want to speculate or go beyond what i know, from reporting. but i'll just tell you that a number of people -- people who the president talks to, who are advisers, advisers on the outside, and who are involved with the campaign and with his political operation, already speculating about the firing of -- of people over this. i don't want -- i don't want to suggest that that's definitely going to happen. but it's certainly part of the conversation, right now. this was a very important event because it was supposed to be

the comeback rally. it was supposed to set the narrative. and a lot of energy went into this. so there will be recriminations. i don't know what they're going to look like. but there will be recriminationings. >> i want to ask you one more question about something you said in your reporting. they have some evidence that people got on and bought fake tickets. what sorts of people? >> well, i think there were a lot of left-wing protestors on li li line online doing that as a sort of hijinks. in trump world, that's normal. it happens every rally. they factor it into calculations but something went wrong here. i think they dramatically underestimated the extent to which those signups that they were touting were real signups, versus fake signups. it's -- it -- it couldn't have been anything close to a million real signups because you saw what the overflow space looked

like. >> eddie glaude, i'm out of the campaign business. but if i made a political ad, i would say, donald trump saw whatever 1 million minus the 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,000 people, who showed up, million ghosts today. i mean, what, on earth, is happening in this country? if a rally, that the cdc told him not to have, gets forced onto the city of tulsa on juneteenth. and then, only moved, after levels of shame that have to be so high for this white house to even see them and feel them, moved to today. is seen outsi scene outside. our colleague described as a powder keg. the whole thing -- the whole thing as jonathan swan just told us, the whole thing is because of the president's ego. his terrible standings in the poll today. those can change.

we all know that. we all were alive in 2016. but the whole thing was a waste. if -- i pray to god nobody gets sick tonight. i pray to god nobody caught coronavirus from the six people on the president's advance team wi that tested positive today. i pray nobody gets hurt but if they do, it was all for not because as jonathan swan's reporting, this is not what they wanted and planned for and hoped for, even as a vapid tv show. >> yeah. you know, nicolle, it was all for not. but, if any of what you just described happened or happens, it all rests at donald trump's feet, right? it's because of him and his ego. i think it's really important for us to make two points, really quickly. one, is that it's not just simply tulsa. i think the country is on edge. and there could be anything that could send -- send it off, right? i think there were particular circumstances, here, that could -- could in some -- in some ways, be described as a powder keg. but i want to suggest that the

country, generally, is on edge. we're at the precipice, and we need to understand that. the second point, really quickly, jonathan swan made a point that this was supposed to reset the narrative. but let's look at the content of the speech. what is the content of the narrative that he wants to put forward? of course, he wants to talk about the economy, but there is all of this talk about the radical left, aoc, representative omar. there was talk about confederate statues. there was talk about the radical left. there was fear mongering, at every level. race bating. the chinese virus, kung flu. i mean, it was just simply a kind of sense of desperation. right? rooted in the most hateful language. so it seems to be really interesting. we need to be aware of both of those things, at once. >> and we did not broadcast any of that. i did see a lot of that on

twitter. so we'll remind folks that he, also, spent a lot of time lying about the slippery surface, that he had to navigate down. news accounts from multiple organizations suggest that there was no rain on that day. jonathan swan, thank you for your reporting. i understand it's an ongoing exercise. so i'm glued to your twitter feed. dr. patel, thank you for making us smarter and safer. eddie glaude, we're not done talking to you, yet. please stick with us a little longer. when we come back, this critical moment for the rule of law in america. attorney general william barr fires manhattan's top federal prosecutor, who had been overseeing investigations of president trump and some of his closest associates. plus, fears are growing within the trump campaign that, what worked in 2016, is bombing this time. those stories, coming up. storiep when we started our business we were paying an arm and a leg for postage. i remember setting up shipstation. one or two clicks and everything was up and running.

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we're back. we've got a live picture of what looks like some increasing tensions on the streets in tulsa. we're praying for calm. we're praying for everyone's safety. and we're looking for cal perry, our reporter on the ground there. do we have cal? >> hey, nicolle. you got me? >> i got you. what's going on? >> nicolle, can you hear me? cool. >> i can. what's going on? >> just -- yeah. yeah. so there was some popping sounds. police moved in, in force. the police have totally withdrawn, tulsa pd, they were nowhere to be found during the speech. they moved in, in force. sounded like they fired some of those little pepper rounds. people started running down the street. they've, slowly, made their way back. now, what's happened is this long line of police cars, as far as i can see, and there is a police line forming. it's not clear to me who they're separating out. still, not clear what those

popping signs were. though, again, i am 99% sure it's those little pepper ball rounds. that forced a number of people down, flushed them down the streets. and now, police have moved back. just hang with me. there's some chanting going on. so this is now the black lives matter group that's been working its way around the arena. has worked its way back here, and again, starting to face off with the supporters of donald trump who were in the rally by the president. we'll see how the police want to handle the situation. now, people are sort of making their way back, nicolle. >> so, cal, i had hoped that you'd be turn out to be wrong about this feeling like a powder keg. sadly, it looks like that feeling, at least, is accurate. talk about what you're hearing from folks making their way away from that area. are they growing more concerned? are they trying to get out of there? >> you know, up until very

recently -- and i have to say maybe -- maybe i still was wrong. we haven't seen -- we saw a lot of frantic running. i haven't really been able to see whether or not there's been a clash. people here -- there's two -- two schools of thought. people, one, are trying to get home. two, they are steadfast in demonstrations. the black lives matter movement, especially here in tulsa, is angry. they're angry just -- not just about the police violence the last few months. they're angry about the massacre that took place 99 years ago, in three weeks. the massacre from a jealous, white population that took it out on what was a thriving, black community. there is a feeling here, and it's a growing feeling, that donald trump, the president, had to know counter narrative. there had to be a counternarrative. there had to be movement on the streets yesterday. on juneteenth. and, by the way, that -- that march yesterday, on juneteenth, was not supposed to happen because of the coronavirus. and, in speaking to local lawmakers, state representatives, they said we had to come out here. we had to risk our lives, they said, for equal rights and for human rights. and we had to do it because the president chose this town, and

he originally chose this day. now, obviously, he moved the rally to tonight. but people are still very upset about that choice. they feel like he tried to hijack what has been a national and growing movement. nicolle. >> cal perry, stay close. and, you know, wave at us if there are any developments there. and, once again, please, stay safe and i hope everyone there on the ground in tulsa stays safe. my colleague -- do we have morgan on the phone? is morgan with us? morgan chesky. >> i'm here. can you hear me okay? >> can -- can you hear us? yeah, i can hear you. what are you seeing? >> i can hear you. we are on the other side of this kind of a scrum that's taking place right now, as those black lives matter protestors are kind of running into the people who showed up for president trump's rally tonight, as they're all trying to leave this area. and so, we're starting to see where there was a really wide prim ster set perimeter set up before, there is a bit of face offs happening

of sorts right now. i am joined by captain dale rourke who drove in from texas today. captain, you wanted to get inside the arena tonight. you weren't able to. >> we were too late. >> but tell me why is it important for you to be here? and what, about the president's message, stuck with you? >> okay. to start with, i've never voted for a president in my life. i've only voted against them. >> okay. >> that's the reason i voted for trump, because i hated hillary clinton. i worked for her in the state department. okay. so i wanted trump to tell me something that he was going to do, that i would like. and the things i want him to tell me is that we're going to get our -- our industry back. because what he's wanting to do is put tariffs on everything. >> right. >> and that's what that idiot hoover did, that brought on the big depression. >> you wanted to hear the president talk about industry.

>> bring our industry back. >> bringing back the economy. what else? >> that's what i'm only interested in more than anything. >> so, after listening to the president's message tonight, what are you walking away with? >> i'm walking away with, i got pepper sprayed. >> you got pepper sprayed? >> yes, sir. >> when you were trying to leave the arena? >> no, as i was walking out through -- through the corridor. >> okay. are you okay? >> yeah, i'm fine. yeah. >> the fact that you had to deal with that, how are you feeling? >> well, i'm feeling like should've been better controlled. the police could've stayed home because they didn't do -- in oklahoma, there's no place for police. our constitution says it's the sheriff and the deputies. >> and when you look out and you see this protest gathered here, and you see everyone kind of facing off. >> look, i was in paris for the yellow jacket protests in november. there wasn't any more going on here than there was there, and nobody was armed.

nobody started coming down the road like a -- and pepper spraying people. >> well, i'm glad you're okay, and i appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. appreciate it. >> yeah. we had a cbs contract. >> thank you, captain. and, nicolle, right now, more people are coming out. we're going to speak to some -- some of these folks, who were inside the arena. we'll send it back to you right now. but, after cal mentioned that initial pepper spray being deployed, we have yet to hear any of those rounds being fired off right now. it seems like everyone's trying to get back home, in as orderly a fashion as possible. nicolle. >> morgan, i'll tell you what i told cal. stay safe out there, my friend. eddie glaude. came to hear about trump's economic policies, it sounded like, and got sprayed with pepper spray. there's a campaign ad for ya. >> it sure is. it sure is. i mean, as i look at the images, nicolle, it's the clashing of -- of -- of two americas. right?

i mean, it's as visual, it's as stark a visual as you can get. about the state of the country. and what we saw inside or heard inside seems to just speak around it. or, at least, if it's not speaking around it, it's stoking the fire underneath it. i mean, we are on a knife's edge. it is very clear, as we look at these images. and we see the vastly different ways, in which these people seem to understand the state of the country. it's -- it's -- it's -- it's amazing, on a certain level. >> i -- i want to push back on one thing. how far apart are we, if 76% of americans support the mission of black lives matter? and i think 100% of americans would like to hear what anyone who'd like to lead this country would do for the economy. i think the images and the clashes are in service of donald trump. he wanted this image.

he went there so that -- that -- that -- that this would be what people saw tonight. but you've got 76% of americans, eddie, 76% of americans haven't agreed on all that much. they want to see the opposite of what he's peddling. i think everybody would like to see an -- an end to the pandemic. i think everybody would like a president, that they could go see without -- the -- the -- the reason that gentleman had pepper spray on him is because donald trump insisted on holding a rally, against the advice of his own cdc. he went rogue. he went to this city. still, sort of tending to their -- their specific wounds that are evoked. i mean, he picked tulsa. he picked juneteenth. he put his supporter, that gentleman right there, in danger. trump did that. >> you know, i -- i think both of our claims could be true, at the same time, nicolle. and, that is to say, we could

make the claim -- no -- we could make the claim that the majority of americans hold the very views that you just laid out. but then -- then, there's the 42%, the 30%, the 20%, however we want to describe them, who are steadfast in their views. and when we think about the country, over its history, we have seen that particular percentage of the country really have the nation by the throat. and you combine that with greed, because donald trump, during his speech, your 401(k)s. the nasdaq, historic. wall street, historic. folks who are worried about their taxes, right? you combine that, with greed, and you get, in some ways, these -- these -- these stark contrasts that we're talking about. i'm seeing, here, in these images -- and i think you're right. donald trump wants them. right? for a variety of reasons. but i'm seeing vastly different americas. and they impact our politics,

even though the numbers suggest that 76% actually -- actually hold a view of the country that isn't this, if that makes sense. >> it totally makes sense. and of course, you're right. i think i'm just feeling hopeful that, with all of the jonathan swan's reporting. we were on with jonathan swan who said this was not at all what they wanted. they wanted crowds. they wanted enthusiasm. they got neither. with the polls showing donald trump sinking, every week, to new lows in a contest against joe biden. and -- and -- and i guess the -- the hope is derived from the realization that -- that trump's got nothing else. this is it. this is it. this is all he's got. those old attacks that he used four years ago. he hasn't spent the last three years coming up with new lines. this is it. this is it. this is all he's got, eddie. >> yeah. i mean, we heard -- i heard ms 13. he floated that one out.

he talked about the wall. he tried to do -- you know, i mean, literally, it was -- it was like the old -- the big -- the big, fat elvis, you know, performer. john heilemann was tweeting that this is a sign that trump knows that he's dead, in terms of the performance. but, what we do know is this, nicolle. is that, if donald trump feels desperate, if this is, in fact, desperation, he is willing to do anything. and there's no bottom to where this guy will go. and so, i understand you being hopeful. i just want us to be mindful of who actually occupies the white house. >> i think you're right. i think you're more right than i am. steve schmidt has been tweeting all night long, about how trump guessed that there'd be up to a million people there. and ended up with a half-full arena. steve schmidt, the floor is yours. >> well, it's an extraordinary night.

i think that donald trump will be remembered for having come to tulsa, and delivered the emptiesburg address. and i think we see the enfeeblement of the trump movement here, with this lethargic speech. we hear him talking, for 15 minutes, trying to explain his shuffle down the ramp at west point. trying to explain why he had such difficulty drinking water. a remarkable moment in the speech, of course, was when he talked about testing. and in that moemtment, you reald that he lacks the intellect, at such a profound level, to understand the issues that he's tasked to deal with, at all. and so, the reason we have a shattered economy and 120,000 dea dead, and the united states is at the epicenter of the coronavirus catastrophe is because we don't have enough testing. and you saw the president of the united states, in my view, not joking. but -- but -- but making a statement, with conviction, that

he's against testing because it yields more positive results, which is against his self-interest. it was a speech that george wallace could have given in 1968. it was the language of white grievance. his embrace of the confederacy and the mythology of it was appalling, in this moment in time. and what you see on the street is a powder keg. and donald trump's the guy who came with matches and a can of gasoline. and maybe it won't be in tulsa. maybe it won't be the next city. or even the one after that. but, eventually, he's going to spark the match that lights an inferno. and eddie glaude is exactly right. the country's on edge. we have the most inept and ineffective president. and what i think, politically, is most amazing about this rally is about five days ago, we've been tracking this at the lincoln project, a grandmother started a video on tik tok.

urging teenagers to get teenagers to get as many tickets as they possibly could. and, all over the country, if you have been watching social media that millennials -- sorry, younger than millennials. 16-year-olds, 20-year-olds, are on. the teenagers of america, i think, dealt with savage blow to donald trump's re-election tonight. and fooled the trump campaign into believing that there were a million people that actually wanted to come to this spectacle, when spectacle when, in fact, there were about 9,000 who risked their health and their lives, and maybe the lives of their family members, to go see, who the hell knows what tonight. >> so that's a remarkable state of affairs. if, four years ago, it was the russians who meddled in 2016. now, americans, and young americans, isn't that perfect, have figured out how to wrestle back some of the mediums that trump enjoyed exploiting. to what?

undermine their crowd-size expectations? tell me more about that, steve. >> well, i think that you have a group of kids in the country, who've had their school years ruined, had their summers ruined. they look around at the chaos in the country. they believe in equality. they like immigration. they have gay friends and gay brothers and sisters. and they reject, completely, generationally, the intolerance of donald trump. and so, i think you have -- and you can -- you can go look at this, on social media -- you have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of kids across america, millions of kids, who are bored, locked down, in some fundamental ways by the quarantine. camps and activities are cancelled. and they're up to some mischief on their phones, and directing it at donald trump. but i do think that heads will roll over this. i mean, you couldn't have had a worse and more disastrous opening to this campaign if you had went out and spent a billion dollars and hired 10,000 people

to make it so. i mean, what -- what a debacle for donald trump. and you had this meandering, low-energy performance, when the donald trump of 2020 is explaining, in a 15-minute diatribe, why it took him ten minutes to walk down a ramp, in the shuffle that alarmed a lot of people around the country. says what's wrong with the president of the united states? >> an unbelievable moment. eddie glaude, steve schmidt, two of our favorite friends. thank you so much for spending some time with us on a saturday night. it's saturday, right? yes. still ahead, biden campaign senior advisor karine jean-pierre joins us. we'll be right back. us we'll be right back. can my side be firm?

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we are continuing to keep our eyes and ears on the ground, there, in tulsa. two pieces of news. one, i have confirmed it is saturday. two, the great jeremy bash is joining us. jeremy, there's so much to cover. but, first, your thoughts on all the stories that converged in tulsa tonight? >> yeah. i guess, we can call it corona-palooza. i actually think, nicolle, it will be a tragic outcome. a sad outcome, if -- if people in that arena get covid. i mean, and -- and not just sad because they're endangering their lives. but of course, the whole premise of the public-health response to coronavirus is that many of them may be healthcare workers.

they may be frontline workers, they may be essential workers. they may be police and firefighters. and if they, of course, get the disease from somebody who is next to them, yelling. they could pass it on to other people, and that's how the virus obviously spreads through principally indoor transmission, where there are crowds. so, i think it was highly irresponsible to have this rally. and i just hope nobody gets ill from it. obviously, the president is going to be highly disappointed with the turnout. and, of course, the cancellation of the million-person march that was supposed to follow. i think this whole thing actually backfired for him. he thought it would be a show of strength. it turned out to be an unbelievable show of weakness. >> at a moment that he is so weak and so weak, publicly. it was a bizarre day to have a two-day, drawn out, botched firing of the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. thought of, by a lot of offices,

not just its own, to be the crowned jewel of the u.s. attorneys offices, jeremy. >> yeah. this is an unbelievable turn of events. and i think the fundamental question that we don't know the answer to is why? why did donald trump fire the u.s. attorney from the southern district of new york? somebody who was a trump ally. somebody who contributed to his campaign. someone who was handpicked by the trump administration to take this important post. clearly, and i think there's -- there's, at least, circumstantial evidence, as a prosecutor might say, that this office was investigating some aspect of the trump universe. either, donald trump, himself, his business empire, possibly his -- we know his personal attorney, rudy giuliani, has been under investigation. we know that, according to reporting from some media outlets, about six months ago, david pecker, the head of the national inquirer, met with prosecutors after prosecutors ostensibly gave him a grant of immunity.

this is, of course, a follow on to the michael cohen prosecution, that involved the hush money payments to stormy daniels. you know, that part of the transaction, not michael cohen, who was the person who passed on donald trump's checks. but donald trump writing the checks and actually authorizing that transaction. that part of the transaction has never been -- we -- we don't know whether it's been criminally investigated. or if it is being criminally investigated. i think it's clear, nicolle, that the reason trump wanted this u.s. attorney fired was because this u.s. attorney was pushing forward on investigations that could jeopardize donald trump. >> so, to that point, jeremy, i was thinking, today, about all the things donald trump did at this point in the campaign four years ago. he was a private citizen, so his efforts to pay hush money to a porn star with whom he'd had a sexual relationship, he didn't operate the levers of power. but of course this year's michael cohen is bill barr. so he asked -- i mean, it's just

remarkable what bill barr has agreed to do, in the service of donald trump. follows the exact pattern of conduct that he had michael cohen carry out four years ago. >> that's exactly right. and bill barr is his con fixer. and trump said i want that guy gone. and you know the math, nicolle. personnel decision plus friday night equals scandal. i mean, there's no other calculation. there's -- there is no way that this was just some dispute about a run-of-the-mill issue. certainly, it wasn't a performance issue. this had to do with something very core to donald trump's future. that -- that he feared that, what the u.s. attorney was -- was pursuing and is pursuing and, by the way, i think will pursue even if this individual steps aside. the career prosecutor filling in for him and serving as acting attorney is going to carry these on. something donald trump cares about very much. i can't tell you whether it's

his freedom, whether it's his finances, whether it's his friends. but it's something that he cares about, very deeply, and he wanted this u.s. attorney gone. >> jeremy, i haven't spoken to you since the substance of john bolton's indictment has become public. you and i had a lot of conversations. i had hoped he'd meet the moment, and testify. i had hoped republicans would subpoena him to, at least, hear his story of donald trump's corrupt dealings with ukraine. it turns out, it goes far beyond ukraine. just, your thoughts on the substance of john bolton's description of a president, who is equal parts corrupt and stupid. >> yeah. interesting because one of the individuals who morgan chesky was interviewing earlier. who had shown up for the trump rally. i don't think got in but was there as a trump supporter. his main issue was, you know,

what donald trump is going to do for industry, meaning for the economy. and even, including the manufacturing base in our country. well, if you look at john bolton's account, of course, what donald trump did was he went to xi jinping, the dictator, head of the communist party in china. and said i want to do a quid pro quo deal with you. i want to go easy on you, with respect to the trade deal. in other words, i want to sell out american workers. i want to sell out american industry. in exchange, i want you to help me in the election. now, just think about that for a second. it is -- it is actually the merging of sort of the two frauds, at the heart of the trump presidency. number one is that he undermines democracy, our democracy, by going around asking other countries to interfere in our democracy on his behalf. and, second, is he claims he's fighting china. he claims he's got the back of the american worker. he is stabbing those workers in the back. he's actually selling them out to china. he's actually undermining them. so, you know, again, when he tries to make an argument that next year's going to be the strongest economic year in our country. don't believe it for a second because he is doing these deals

with xi jinping and others that are actually going to undermine it. >> i was thinking some of those same things when morgan was interviewing someone who had come to hear about his economic policies. jeremy bash, thank you so much for spending some time with us on a saturday. >> thanks, nicolle. >> we are now joined by karine jean-pierre, senior advisor for the biden campaign. karine, first, i want to ask you, you know, joe biden hasn't done this. what donald trump did, tonight. and when you see the reports about six people on the advanced team and any politician has an advanced team, people don't know that but before a candidate or anyone goes anywhere, people have to go scout it out. six of those people tested positive for coronavirus. they were in and around the tulsa community all week. watching what donald trump sort of brought out, does that change any of the conversations, inside the campaign, about whether or not to have large-scale events at any point? or are those off the table? >> i'll -- i'll say this, if i

can, nicolle, about this evening. it was pathetic. it was sad. it was outrageous. and, before i even get into that, we have to remember -- i think you mentioned this -- the cdc, his own cdc, said he shouldn't do this. the coronavirus task force, his own coronavirus task force, said he couldn't do this -- he shouldn't do this. the local oklahoma state officials said please do not come. they begged him not to do this. and here's the thing. his team was really clear about why they were doing this. they told reporters that we needed to have a rally because he was in a bad mood. the president of the united states was in a bad mood. so we're going to put the people's lives at risk. thousands of people's lives at risk, because he is in a bad mood. when it comes to donald trump, nicolle, and you know this. we've talked about this. it's all about him. the rally was about him. the speech was about him. and what did he do? he just laid out old grievances,

and then dog whistles, racist dog whistles once again, the same ones we've heard for the last four years. here's the thing, nicolle. the country needs a leader. they need someone who is going to lead us, in this crisis. not make it about themselves. and that is what joe biden is going to do. he has a plan. he put forth a plan about how he's going -- how we should reopen the country. he knows how to bring people together. and there are two crisis happening -- two crises -- there is this pandemic of -- pandemic of covid-19. and then, there's this uprising of uprooting systemic racism. and, here, you have a president who said, hey, i'm slowing down testing because of the numbers. so this is about, politically, about himself. it's not even about the american people. and here's the other thing, nicolle. he didn't have to go to oklahoma. he weon oklahoma by 38 points i 2016. this wasn't about politics or getting to 270. this was about making him feel

good, feel better. and that is not the type of president that we need, in this moment. >> karine, if you look at the turnout, maybe you guys should, i don't know, put some ads up in oklahoma. it looks like the whole country is looking at their options. i want to ask you. it's saturday night. it's almost 11:00. who is the vice president going to pick as his running mate? >> oh, nicolle. he's going to pick someone, who -- he uses this word, which i think is right -- who is s sympatico. who knows how to do this and also who is going to be a ticket that is going to unify and get us to 270. right? we have to be strategic and smart, and there's so many great, great women on the list. i mean, they are so -- so well-qualified, beyond the vp. and i am -- i'm just excited. i'm excited to see who he picks, and the choice is his, as you know. and we will see. >> wasn't -- when you -- when

you threw your teeny, tiny, strong, little body in front of someone, wasn't that senator kamala harris? >> oh, nicolle. >> all right. you're not going to give anything. let me get you -- let me get to you on the record on the other big story of the day. the -- what one former justice department official, from the trump era, described as a botched friday-night massacre. the firing of the u.s. attorney from sdny. >> i mean, it's not surprising, nicolle. this is an impeached president. the house impeached him. why did they impeach him? because he was trying to steal an election. he was so afraid of joe biden, that he asked ukraine to help him. i mean, this is a man who is incredibly desperate. and just does these things, that is beneath the office that he holds. it is not surprising, at all, and it's -- you know, and we

just have to be mindful. like, this is what is going to continue to happen. that's why people really need to -- to make sure they goat et and vote in november. that's the pitch i am going to make. you've got to stop this madness and that's the way to do that in november. but we have talked about this over and over again. this is -- sadly, it's not shocking. the last -- the news of the last 24-48 hours is not shocking because we know who donald trump is. he has told us that, over and over and over again. >> is the campaign going to seize on trump's comments tonight? you mentioned them. and we've covered them. the white house is already trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, that he was joking about slowing down testing. >> well, look. we've -- we've been -- we've been, in the past couple weeks, making sure that we do the contrast. we show what kind of leader joe biden is going to be. he has talked about what he is going to do. when he's president. and, to deal with this crisis that we're dealing with.

because, by january, this is still going to be a problem. covid-19. so he's talked about the -- the people who have been disproportionately affected, which is people of color. so i think that that's what we're going to continue to do. show the contrasts. be very fair. lay out what our plan is. and -- and -- and that's the direction that we'll continue to go here. >> karine jean-pierre, thank you so much for taking some time out to talk to us tonight. it's always great to see you. thank you for spending the last two hours with us. please, stay with msnbc for continuing, live coverage for what has been a very busy news night. our coverage continues with my friend and colleague joshua johnson. so what's going on? i'm a talking dog. the other issue. oh... i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 7 million dogs.

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hey there. i'm joshua johnson. good to be with you tonight from next news world headquarters in new york. let us begin this hour on the ground in tulsa, where supporters of president trump and supporters of the black lives matter movement are filling the streets after the president's rally earlier tonight. let's start with nbc's cal perry and morgan chesky. both are on the ground for us. cal, let's start with you. where are you, and what do you see? >> reporter: hey, joshua. we're just sort of outside that outer perimeter of the bok arena. as you said, that black lives matter group has been sort of circling the arena for the last four to five hours. they have finally pushed off to greenwood.