we'll see you again monday at 10:00 p.m., 9:00 p.m. central. and of course, i'll see you each weeknight for nbc "nightly news." i'm lester holt. for all of us at nbc news, good night. i need you to for and about my life, before i get murdered by the police. >> there's a large conversation to be had about queer and gay people of color. we experience a different set of circumstances whether to live your life openly or having different challenges. >> we have the straight, the gay, the trans community. if you don't respect us, who will respect us first? when you say black lives matter, i'm black.

regardless of what else i am, i am black. >> hey, there. i'm joshua johnson, this is "pride and protest." a conversation for a turning point in american history. social justice warrior had become something of an insult. now it seems that millions of us are eager to enlist. how did that happen? the killing of george floyd was a flashpoint that united americans like never before. people from many walks of life warned their elected leaders, no justice, no peace. the movement for racial justice and for lgbtq rights, 2020 marks 50 years since new york's first gay liberation day march, after the stonewall riots. people could have been fired from their jobs if they got

outed. now the supreme court says that kind of discrimination is illegal, based on a law based on racial discrimination. but when it comes to the fight for equality, we are and always have been directly connected to one another's progress. who laid the groundwork for stonewall? trans women of color were among the prime targets for police officers and their vice squads. black lives matter aims among other things to prevent police brutality, and lgbt people of color laid the groundwork. it's all one big push for equality, and it always has been. it's a lot to think through. but our guests this hour are here to help.

let's meet our first panel, dominique jackson, from "pose." she's a model and author. alfonso david, and ebony bell. glad to have all of you with us. dominique, i love your take on the two movements merging so tangibly and suddenly. why now? >> it's extremely important for this to happen right now, because we have a lot of black trans women being murdered. 60 to 70 to 80 brutal, horrible murders. we as trans people rally with everyone. and we are always there with black lives matter. from most of the murders that have happened, i've known my sisters to go out and rally. and while we're rallying, we're

also being targeted. we stand up for people that won't stand up for us. for us to come together, it means we're really seeing that it's about equality for all. not just for everyone else to get a pass or to get the privilege that others have. >> alfonso, this is not the first time that there has been visible overlap between these movements. how did we get to where we are right now in 2020? >> well, as we think about 2020, we are seeing this country at an inflection point. we're grappling with issues of racial strife that we've been grappling with for the past 400 years. people of color have been treated in such a way that we're not realizing the full dream of equality in the constitution. so dominique is exactly right. we need to make sure we appreciate that all of these movements are intertwined.

that pride did start with protest. that black and latinx transgender women fought against oppression, and that's why we have the modern civil rights movement. but it's not divorced from the struggles of the past, and from civil rights leaders who created the platform we stand on. so we have to think about our history, remember our history, and understand how our history forms the current discussion about race in this country and our future, where we have to go. true liberation is the goal, not just for lgbtq people, but for all people in this country. >> and one issue the black lives matter has had to deal with is the pushback phrase, all lives matter. now we're seeing protests and pride marches that say all black lives matter.

what do you make of the merging of these two things? how do you see it? >> all lives matter is completely separate and absolutely ridiculous from all black lives matter. of course we know all lives matter. i think all of us who try to explain this to people, we understand that. but right now, our black brothers, sisters, siblings are being murdered right in front of our faces. also, as both of the other panelists spoke, black trans women are still being violently abused and killed on the streets. sometimes at the hands of our own community. so it's important that we recognize that all black lives matter, and all of our races matter. we're on the front lines, as was mentioned before, we had a black trans woman and a black lesbian

throw the first punch, the first brick in stonewall. so it's time for the black community to start showing up for us. we're not just gay or black, we're black and we're queer. >> and the other aspect of that, now feels different from then. because then all lives matter was meant as a throwaway to make the argument disappear as if everybody didn't already know, isn't everybody's life important? it felt like the pushback was, well, no, if everybody's life was important, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. >> exactly. and it's, you know, it's a little bit disheartening that it took black lives matter for everybody to all of a sudden say all lives matter. so i question the people that say all lives matter.

what is it about black lives matter that triggers you? and really think about it, and do some soul-searching for sure. because we know you matter. but right now, the pandemic is here. we're in a pandemic within a pandemic. >> dominique, how much room is there for black lives matter to be more lgbtq inclusive? this movement is just finally, nationally starting to see significant change happening. regarding black and brown people. that's after years of pushing. how much bandwidth does it have to broaden its focus? >> how much bandwidth? it's suppose to be there. we're supposed to be a part of this. we're black and we're brown. there should never even be a question about if we should be a part of it. because to be honest with you, many people of the lgbtqia plus community have always been a

part of black lives matter and the black lives movement. to exclude us, it's kind of, to be honest with you, it's kind of disrespectful for anyone to even say that is there room. we are black, we're brown, we're part of this community. there should never be a question of people killing us, or a question of us asking to participate. we should protect them and they should protect us. >> i understand, 100%, there should never be a question of it. the issue has been whether everyone gets noticed. but i agree, the bandwidth should be there. and you used a different term that i use, you used a term that is much more inclusive, lgbtqia

plus. i'm just using lgbtq as a shorthand, but i recognize there are many different ways to refer to the multiplicity of our community. >> not to interrupt you, but this is how we grow and allow people to feel they can walk the streets at night, when we take the time to understand it's not just lgbt, it is lgbtqia plus. taking the time to just say the qia plus will give the people that don't identify the "l," "g," "b," or "t" to be included. in black lives matter for us to feel included is what we want. you cannot say that your life matters, that black lives matter, and look at another black or brown person and tell them they're an abomination, and it's okay for them to be killed. >> i think to that point, we

should note that this community is not new to the black civil rights movement, either. the movements insiders knew he was gay, but kept it quiet so they wouldn't say, aha, and try to discredit the movement. how far have we come since the days that people like that could work for one aspect of their civil rights, but had to leave another one untouched? >> unfortunately, we still have a lot of work to do. in workplaces and organizations across this country, we're being forced to pick which identity is most important. we have a hierarchy of identity in our various circles, and in some cases, if you're lgbtqia, if you're a queer person, you have to leave your orientation or identity at the door if you want to focus on your race or

vice versa. we need to create an environment where we don't have to choose. i don't choose my race as being more important than my orientation or gender identity. that is critically important to who i am as a person. and we need people to recognize identity, and not value certain identities and devalue others. one of the architects of the civil rights movement, and specifically the march in washington, as we celebrate pride, some people don't know we have the modern lgbtqia civil rights movement because of black and latinx trans women who fought. we still have a long way to go. >> we saw a few shots of pride celebrations. before i ask about that, what is

your sense in terms of the way that we refer to one another, i see where dominique is coming from, 100%. alfonso used a slightly different term. i tend to follow journalist conventions, lgbt or lgbtq. how do you see it, ebony? >> i'm also in the media industry, and we've taken on lgbtq, but we've talked about extending that. we talk about practicing what we preach, and we want to be a part of the voices and the movement, but we can't do that without the ia plus. i agree with dominique, we need to make sure we're inclusive of everyone. i get it that, you know, as far as writing it down on paper or saying it is a little bit

smoother when you say lgbtq, but it's time to bring in our other brothers and sisters and siblings and be inclusive. we can't ask for the same thing, and leave out a whole another section of our community. >> and i understand the brevity argument, also. but if we can make time in the past to refer to homosexuality, it has the same number of syllables. so i have your sense about lgbtqia pride celebrations, some cities have a separate black pride celebration, part of a larger pride event. philadelphia updated the pride

flag, how do you see this gap between how whites and people of color may express pride differently? >> so, just really quickly, i lost sound there. so i'm assuming this question is for me. >> yes. >> but, you know, i heard a lot of times people say, why do we need a black pride or asian-pacific pride? it's all about everyone with pride. i was just saying capital pride for example. i think it's important for people to understand that we need spaces where we can relate to people. i was explaining to folks, we've been quarantined for a long, you know, two, three months now. and we've been inundated with negative news and images and the administration that is anti-lgbtq, and that's what we're seeing. and we're missing self-affirming

sf spaces. it goes back to all prides matter, but we need to make sure that we have that self-awareness and self-affirming space. that's what black pride does for black queer people. there are just certain things that we deal with that are a little bit different than other people. and it's important that we have that space to communicate that. >> dominique, what do you think pride should look like going forward? 50 years ago, it was a protest, today, it's mostly a celebration, with companies participating or sponsoring. then it was, we're here, we're queer, get used to it. i see the merits of both, but dominiq dominique, what would you like to see the future of pride look like? >> for pride to look like something that i would be 100%

about, it would have to include the transgender community in a greater way. i believe that pride has now not realized that in order to be proud, you have to have something to be proud about. if your life is still marginalized, how are you going to go out and support a movement that is not even realizing that you're there, that your needs are not met, that you're dying every day? for me, pride has to be more inclusive and step away from -- an aspect of it and come back to where it's about having people that are so proud of who they are unapologetically because they feel a hole from the inside. >> finally, for everyone before we let you go, in one sentence,

just one sentence, if there was one piece of advice that you would have given your younger self to prepare them for whatever 2020 is right now, what would that one sentence of advice be? alfonso, let's start with you. >> never give up. >> ebony? >> stay strong and stay vigilant. >> dominique? >> get the shoes, baby, and stand on their necks until they respect you. >> alfonso, we had an audio issue. repeat your sentence before we go. >> never give up, and never forget your capacity. >> that is alfonso, ebony, and

dominique. thank you all very much for being with us. much appreciated. much more to discuss as we continue. a number of transgender and gender nonconforming people have been killed this year. at least 15, and we say that because oftentimes the stories go untold, or the victims are misgendered. th here's a look at them as they were in life. ♪ ♪

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right now, to me it's beautiful, but it's also hard. >> quite often, i can really show up as a black man, but it's hard for people to understand my experiences as a gay man. in other spaces, i show up as a gay man, but they don't understand my experiences as a black man. >> we're having to re-experience the struggle of blackness and queerness in tandem. >> and we have to allow the marginalized to process the unbearable. >> as a black man in the lgbtqai

plus community, it's a struggle to be included. >> the system continues to benefit and thrive on our division. that's a reason why all black lives matter is so important, because of the way that the most marginalized of the black community have been left out of that, even though it's all our movement. >> we wouldn't have a pride month to celebrate if not for black trans women. we need to demand better for them. >> this 51st year after stonewall, we're fighting for rights in a whole new way. and that includes for our trans and black trans family members. >> we are the foundation of all of these celebrations and all of these intersections. >> are we going to forget about black trans men and women? are we going to forget about

nonbinary folks? we cannot. >> please protect black trans women. >> queer black lives are worthy of respect. queer black lives are to be loved. queer black lives are to be protected. and i hope that we remember that this month and forever. >> welcome back to "pride and protest." it used to be that when we did a program like this, we assumed our audience to mostly be straight white people who needed a fair amount of hand-holding. today, we're talking to basically everybody. it makes a difference to have the entirety focused on protecting a minority. that support can save lives, especially for trance trans

women of color. 27 transgender or gender nonconforming people in 2018. and these are just the cases we know about. others have gone unknown or ignored. and others known by their birth name instead of their chosen name and gender identity. ang ang angelica ross, and andrea jenkins, the first black openly trans woman elected to any office in american history. glad to have everyone here, and councilmember jenkins, i want to start with the statistics we

just mentioned. what needs to be done to prevent this from happening? >> hello, joshua, and to all my fellow panelists. i'm so honored to be on the same dais with these amazing just human beings, right? what needs to be done in support of black trans lives is the continual lifting up of the narratives of black, trans, and gender nonconforming identities. just this past monday, the supreme court making it illegal for transgender identified and more broadly lgbt identified folks to be able to work in the workplace is an important first

step. we need congress to pass an employment nondiscrimination act, so that we can have full rights in the workplace as human beings and as american citizens and as people contributing to the narrative that is america. we need organizations to contribute money to support black trans lives and black trans activism, and we need to talk to black trans men and women to talk about what they want. >> how accepted have you felt as an lgbtqai person in the black community? >> i have to say this. my position is different as a transgender male.

oftentimes people don't necessarily read me as transgender. which gives me a level of autonomy and safety which trans people don't get. we're always looking for the performance of femininity, but being a masculine person is just being a masculine person. but i'm very cautious about when and where i disclose that i'm a trans person. and just in the world generally, i have to be very cautious about who i tell i'm trans. and make sure i'm showing up for trans people, particularly black trans women and figuring out when i need to intervene. >> when you say i have to be mindful about how you present yourself in the world, how much of that, if any, has to do with

the kinds of stereotypes, expectations, and images that black men face from wider society? i have to be mindful as a gay black man as i present myself, but i know i can pass. if i never told anybody i was gay, nobody would ever ask. i'm guessing it's different for you. >> it's different, but there are similarities. you can only look one way, being hypermasculine. and you can have a couple of emotions, lust or anger. anything outside of that will call into question your masculinity or manhood. when people get threatened by you presenting yourself as a different type of man, being a man proud of his softness, gentleness, or his emotions, people can be threatened by

that. that's why i say i need to be cautious. and sometimes it's performative. do i have to put on certain performances around certain people in order to preserve my life? the answer is yes. >> angelica, do you have anything to add? i saw you nodding? >> well, first, thank you for having me. and these people on the panel are my friends, these are the voices people should be hearing from. as a black trans woman who has gained a certain level of privilege with my access to hollywood and being on television, there have come certain privileges with that. but we've come to understand, my privileges, whatever they may be, will not protect me. on the streets, i've had moments

where i'm being, like surveillance, my femininity is being surveillanced as i walk to the store or through a group of men who go from cat-calling me to examining my femininity a little bit closer, and saying, wait a minute, that's a man. my heart rate goes up, and i'm not sure those are the last words i'm going to hear. >> can we just be clear? for people who are watching this, you know, the person on the left of your screen is a transwom woman. that's not a man, it's why it's called identity, it's how i see myself. this has been a public service announcement. and it's fair to say that many black households tend to be more socially conservative, when it

comes to issues of lgbtqai acceptance. how much are social movements influencing that with the people that we're the closest to? >> it's interesting, i think that in many ways, we forget -- we erase the fact that black transness has existed for far longer than we've had language for it. my reaction to that is, perhaps we're expanding the narrative of what family looks like when it comes to blackness, including chosen and biological family. and recognizing in the black communities i've seen, there is always that person, that auntie or uncle, the music director at the church, you know, there's always someone in the community who has a little extra sugar in

the tank, whatever words that we use. so i think there is an -- to queerness and blackness that we're not quite ready to talk about yet. but it's always been there. in that way, i do understand there is a narrative about the conservative nature of black households. but it's important to recognize that we've been here for a much longer time than we're ready to talk about. >> can i just expand -- >> go ahead, please. >> -- on the idea of black families being socially conservative or what have you. i just want to point out that i think that this is rooted, again, in white supremacy, and to call the roots what they are, because i know what is happening is that so many mothers and fathers are so concerned about their black child's safety. cis or trans. that's why every black child gets a talking-to about how to survive in america. what not to do. how to dress.

how to talk. all of these different things. that extends to the lgbtq community. they tell us, why would you want to put one more difficult thing to get into this world? don't you know how the world will treat you, when they don't understand that at home is the first place you can model showing love for the lgbtq child. >> and cis or trans, she's referring to cisgender, that's if your gender identity at birth and today match. and the decision on employment discrimination, it was a conservative sort of jurisprudence, and neil gorsuch wrote the opinion. how big a deal is that ruling in

your view? how far does that take us? you mentioned you think we still need an employment nondiscrimination act in addition to this ruling? >> i think it's a huge step forward, right? because what it says is, the law is the law, regardless of religious feelings or conservative leanings. they are interpreting the 1964 civil rights law as it is written. so that does give some, i think, confidence in the supreme court, in the laws that govern our society. but still, i think we need more -- we need that employment

nondiscrimination act from congress in order to have laws that can be enforced by various communities and agencies that are charged with enforcing that. i want to just go back to this issue around the black community and, you know, i have been on the front lines for black liberation for as long as i can remember. however, you know, the fact remains that all the murders, many of the murders that you described leading up to this conversation here in minneapolis, this violence is being brought upon our community by black people.

and that's a huge problem. and, you know, i think if we're going to have an honest discussion, we need to name that. so, you know, i think that this whole idea that somehow black families are more conservative than white families, i don't necessarily agree with that. i think there's the same level of homophobia and transphobia in all communities. however, the violence is being perpetrated by mostly black men, and that's a huge problem. >> thank you to everyone, we appreciate you being here with you. thank you very much. still to come, we'll look

ahead. how does law enforcement factor into the solution? that's just ahead. stay close. >> i think people seeing representation of queer people allowed them to understand that they're not alone. and it's important to focus on that. we're here, we love one another, we're queer, and we're absolutely fabulous. ♪ limu emu & doug

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it means being visible, letting people know who i am, and being my true self. growing up, i didn't have a lot of role models. you kind of felt lost and alone.

i want to be someone that is visible. >> this year, with everyone going on, all the protests, i feel like we need to take pride back to its original roots of being a protest, being a march, not the corporate sponsors, but highlighting prominent queer and black queer and trans voices. >> listening, giving space so other voices can be heard. >> pride is not a luxury. pride is essential to my survival. >> our final panel will help us look to the future. so much is changing these days, policing, popular culture, business, and the way we look at each other. what should that change look like, and what should be done to make these changes last? joining us, travell anderson,

ashley marie preston, and malcolm kenyata, a pennsylvania state representative. glad to have everyone here. trav travell, this has been a momentous month. how are you personally just processing all of this? >> for me, i'm just looking at how the protests that we've been seeing are actually a manifestation of the work that our transestors have been doing all along. i'm proud to see the people at the protests this weekend, showing that they support and stand up for black and brown trans folks. i think going forward, i'm interested in seeing folks keep that same energy.

i'm interested in seeing folks make sure they're still believing and saying that black lives matter and all black lives matter, including black trans lives, two and three months down the line. >> representative, how do you see law enforcement's role in this push for equality and reform? are you seeing more support from police departments, more resistance? how is that going? >> there's always resistance to change. but ultimately, it's our job as people who create laws to make sure we're being responsive to what is going on. and what we face here is that our structures are deeply broken. just a week ago, myself and numerous members of the black caucus and some white allies, we actually staged civil disobedience within the house chamber, demanding that we move bill that will radically reform

police work. and for 19 days in pennsylvania, people have been out every day demanding we disrupt the systems that have treated black and brown folks, who are lgbtq absolutely horribly. we know we need big change. and, you know, in harrisburg, we're doing everything we can in our power to do it. we don't expect law enforcement will be an ally in getting it done, but we're going to push forward nevertheless. >> and you represent some neighborhoods that have been struggling for a long time, and also temple university. i used to spend some summers at temple, and it's an interesting mix.

i feel like maybe your district gives you a certain perspective about how communities can fit side-by-side with one another, but still feel like there's a 50-foot wall between them. >> you know what, honestly, there's a lot of tension. deep poverty is the moral and economic issue of our time. and just as you would hope that law enforcement would be an ally, there are moments when, you know, the tensions are very real. and as a person who was born and raised in this district, third generation, grew up in housing projects, but my grandmother and dad went to temple, there is certainly a balance. but at the end of the day, the folks who live here and are invested in the community for

more than four years, those are the people i'm working with. >> and black lives matter seems to have taken this quantum leap in the last few months, what do you make of that? >> i don't know that it's a quantum leap, as much as people not knowing that black liberation and queer liberation is linear and definitely linked. the leadership of black lives matter are black, queer women. i think one thing we can agree on is that state sponsored violence in law enforcement is there, and in the communities fragmented by the systems, it's a conversation we should all be able to come together to the table and discuss. >> why do you think there has been that lack of awareness of who all has been at the foundations of these movements?

is it willful ignorance? what is underlying that? >> i think it could be all of the above. and there also seems to be an urban myth within the black community that somehow black trans and queer folks are immune to the toxicity, and 52% of lgbtq people of color, according to a report said that they've experienced high levels of violence by law enforcement. so as we continue to see law enforcement take black lives with impunity, and not be held responsible, we're also seeing disproportionate violence in the lgbt community toward black lives. so there are some who know, and

others who don't know. >> lately, many have expressed support of lgbt and black rights, and grindr said they would remove a function that would let people remove profiles by ethnicity. what do you make of this? it feels like one of the realizations that some lgbtqai people may have about how deeply prejudices can run within a community that claims to embrace everyone. >> the whole idea of racial preference within the lgbtq community is not new, and grindr has known that for its entire existence. i think this move is lip service, they could have removed it a long time ago.

we didn't need to witness somebody with a knee on the back of their neck in order for us to be moved to this type of movement and change. companies like grindr who perpetuate some of the systemic racism that people experience within the community, there's so much they could be doing, with the technology and data and money that they have. this particular move is really empty to me. >> and it's not lost on me that there is a certain degree of fetishization, i think is the right word, talking about black men inside the community. you know what i'm getting at, right? >> oh, very, very much so. many of us within the community have heard the no fats, no femmes. also the no blacks, no asians. all the other ways in which members of the community,

primarily white members of the community further otherize and marginalize those of us who are at the intersections of a variety of identities. like i said, it's not a new conversation, and i'm looking to the companies to do more. >> let's look ahead to the future, representative kenyatta. what are you looking to do come the november election? is there one aspect of policy you're focused on for the future? >> one of the things i've really been looking at is the idea around data justice. it's often in our public policy, we can all think of moments where our public policy is actively antagonistic against folks who exist on the margins. one of the things i've often

seen walking into committee hearings as only one of two openly lgbtq members, as one of the youngest members, as the only lgbtq person of color, often you're not a part of the conversation at all. there's a national movement around queering the census, and i introduced legislation that will add a question on all forms where we collect information around sexual orientation and gender identity. at the state level, we collect almost no data about our community. people don't care, they don't think we should be a part of the conversation, and we're actively ignored. so we need to make sure i'm not the only openly lgbtq or queer

person in these spaces. because what i've seen is that in these spaces, when our lived experience is in these spaces, the conversation shifts. and we need more of that shifting to attack and ultimately dismantle the structures of discrimination. >> and before i let you go, can i get one sentence, one piece of advice to a young, black lgbtqai person who is watching this and thinking what the future will be like, what would that be. one sentence only. >> i would say that sometimes the most radical thing you can do is just be yourself, and encourage them to truly embrace that in every single space. >> ashley, one sentence. what would you say? >> i would say take more ownership of the moment.

every generation has that movement that defines who they are. and this is yours. >> and travell, before we go? >> you come from a long lineage of queer and trans brilliance, embrace it. >> thank you all for being here, it's been a pleasure. thank you all so very much. and we're glad you made time for us this hour as well. it's clear how epluribus unum we are. we need to connect and discover how much we need each other. dr. king wrote that we're all tied in a single garment of

destiny. we've seen what can happen when that garment unravels. until we meet again, i'm joshua johnson. thanks for watching. >> i've been getting out every single weekend and protesting, and really being able to talk about what is happening in the world. >> all black lives matter means that we should address the homophobia and racism in our community. it's about joining the two communities together, and creating a dialogue. >> that's what the opportunity is for coalition building, and then to take this movement to the next level and bring about lasting, sustainable change for all of us. where will you go first?

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