at the white house since around about the second third week of march happens to be president duda from poland. both presidents are going to be reading a statement to start and then taking questions from the press corps, because we have otherwise busy afternoon, we'll be monitoring the comments made in the rose garden and let you know of anything news worthy or of note. we can announce that we have breaking news to report in the case of the killing of 25-year-old ahmaud arbery. a grand jury has indicted all three suspects on murder charges. the district attorney is expected to make the formal

announcement of these charges at a news conference, you recall this case, arbery was jogging through a neighborhood in the coastal town of brunswick, georgia, when he was shot and kiln. the attack was recorded on video. two of the suspects were following him in a pickup truck, third recorded the incident the graphic video of his death among others helped fuel the global protests against police brutality and racial injustice. we're happy to have nbc news correspondent blayne alexander who has covered this case, with us from atlanta, and forgive me for making this observation, this means the last two times you and i have interacted over stories in the news, at this hour of the day, has to do with legal charges being pressed in the killing of a black man. i think it says a lot about where we are and who we are

right now. >> that can't be avoided when you look at this story, entire moment of history we're in right now, brian. let's start with this announcement, this press conference that's expected to begin at any second now from the district attorney. speaking down in brunswick, georgia, the south georgia community where all of this happened. expecting to hear that a grand jury has indicted those three men charged with murder in ahmaud arbery case. this comes, brian, less than 24 hours after the state of georgia passed a hate crime bill. so this is something that gained bipartisan support in the state legislature. harsher punishments motivated by racial hate, gender or anything like that. that bill made through the state legislature in large part

because of arbery's death. that's one of the main reasons it was able to move so quickly. talked about the fact that as she called it to me, answer to her prayers, she can finally see justice in this situation. when we look at the grand jury charges, this is essentially a very big step, of course, it took more than -- it took several weeks, the killing happened back in february but it wasn't until two d.a.s recused themselves or removed from the case and it was turned over to state investigators that we actually saw an arrest in this. after a large period of no action happening at all you're seeing all of these steps happening rather quickly, brian. >> for a second because our viewers are dealing with a lot of information, remind everyone the thumbnail sketch of this

case to everyone in this country, this video should be pretty much indelible now, it was the two guys on the pickup truck, we didn't know when we first saw the video the extent of the environment, we see the gun shots, it was brutal to watch then, it remains brutal to watch now. >> and notable, brian, so -- similar cases have happened in rapid succession. ahmaud arbery, 25 years old his family said he was out jogging down in brunswick. he was unarmed. the mcmichaeled followed him. also following was a third person, he was taking that cell phone video of that encounter. the mcmichaels say arbery

started fighting back. but you see the scuffle, you see it play out there on video. that video is really what so much of this in motion. again, i talked about that long period of time between his death and when we saw charges. it was the release of that video that really set so many protests in motion. that brought in the state investigators in and led to the arrest of the father and son and also mr. bryan. >> let's bring in david henderson into this conversation a former assistant d.a. in bear county, texas, these days a civil rights lawyer in private practice. counselor, let's pick up on blayne's last point, would any of this be happening today without the video? >> absolutely not. and we know that because nothing happened initially. and even if we consider the action is being taken now between february and the current date, that's a very long time

for a murder charge to go without being indicted. that's a consistent thread between this case and other cases in the news recently, these evens being recorded on tape has been what's necessary to push important changes. >> and counselor, give us some idea of how a case is built when you're handed that piece of video evidence, we can see -- we can see him on foot. we can see these two other actors. we can see not only firearms but the muzzle flash and then we know there's a third actor, the person who's observing all this and took the time and trouble to vid videotape this, so how do you go from that and the death of a young man to what we're about to see at this news conference? >> well, in this case, you're seeing the justice system

perform at its best. the simple truth is, most of the time we don't see this level of investigation before someone is actually indicted. the ahmaud arbery being accused instead of the victim, an indictment would have been returned far quickly than this situation. in terms of analysis, this case comes down, in states like georgia, it's legal to open carry it's not legal to threaten someone with your firearm. we heard a lot of discussion toward the beginning of the case as to whether or not this was a lawful citizen arrest. ahmaud arbery was threatened with lethal force. he has the right to defend himself against that lethal force. the law's very clear. the additional details that we have are important with regard to assessing intent. it can be determined from the very first video that was

released this should have been indicted murder, pursuant felony, ingaggravated assault w a deadly weapon. >> to our viewers watching the last time, the three of us had a conversation at this hour on live television was because of the application of charges following the death of a black man as i said a few minutes ago says a lot about who we are, where we are in 2020. we'll take a break. we're awaiting the start of this news conference. the application of charges in this case. when we come back -- how has it come to this for a country with a history of doing big things. doing a lot of big things right. these are such unprecedented times. we'll talk to presidential histori historians along the way. historians along the way

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again, we're awaiting the appearance of the president of the united states and the president of poland. president duda, on a warm day in the rose garden in washington. they are back to a scattered, checkerboard seating, socially distancing of the news media, almost all of whom have mask with them at least. there was much talk about the

photo-op in the oval office. the two leaders, first leader visit at the white house since mid-march. they made a point of not shaking hands, also made a point of not wearing masks during their photo-op, sitting just a few feet apart. what a time in our country. the president started this as a coronavirus denier. fairly be said the president would like very much to declare it over and simply change the subject, but this needs to be said as well, the coronavirus brought the nation to its knees, those words came yesterday directly from the director of the cdc, dr. robert redfield, to the house and energy and commerce committee. with cases continuing to surge in half of this country, what are we to make of this moment in history in a country that has so longed been known for its ability to do big things? as we often do when this question arises, we're joined by

author and presidential historian the author of nine books on u.s. presidencies alone, most recently presidents of war, the epic store from 1807 to modern times." michael, one of topics we hope to get to in this afternoon's broadcast is the fact that the eu is now considering banning flights from the u.s., which is a big change for us, it certainly will get our attention, it's a big shift in the power balance and just taking that as an example, how did we get to where we are right now. >> you're absolutely right, brian, what the eu is saying the united states is mismanaging its pandemic in a way that a lot of other countries are doing a lot better and i think historically, if you look back on this period, you'd have to say president trump isn't providing the presidential leadership that other presidents do, when we're

at a moment at a national emergency we look to our presidents to tell us what we should do in a case of emergency, what he's doing about it and how to protect ourselves, instead in recent weeks, you heard the president in his last few appearances that was our only information on the pandemic, you'd think is everything fine and the pandemic is fading away. instead it's getting worse than ever. >> i noted just in the course of today, you tweeted out the picture of mrs. johnson, lady bird johnson on a picture telephone which then was just hard to fathom, we couldn't foresee facetime, this was full-on jetsons, you also tweeted out a photo of the nuclear mushroom cloud visible having been test-fired in

nevada, visible from las vegas, if it happened today, we would have think, of course, this is a populated state, back then, we probably viewed as the nevada desert as expendable. it spoke to progress. talk about the era of progress when our future looked limitless, what do we have to compare it to now other than elon musk firing off a disposable rocket with a basically a tesla capsule at top with two of our restauranastron it. >> going back to the early 1960s there was talk of a moon landing program, john kennedy was president, did he leave it to private business? did he leave it to governors? the governors of texas and florida as you know, there were a big nasa installations in both

states, maybe they might have been interested in doing that, instead kennedy said, the only way we're going to get to the moon is if i go to congress and say this is an absolutely overwhelming national goal, convince congress and the american people, and in a way our system is too dependent on the leadership of the president, when it's absent things begin to halt. what's happened with the leadership of president trump in this pandemic, you know, again something like eisenhower and the interstate highway system, you see a president who's at the moment looks as if he's trying to get away from this because he thinks it might damage his chances for re-election. >> michael, depending on who you are this you're either horrified or invigorated by the protests you're seeing in the streets, the president has clearly cast his lot and decided to go with law and order, a phrase he's now

just kind of tweeting sporadically, he has already in this past hour, remind us when and where presidents have fallen back on this phrase, not just presidents, but those who have wanted the job badly. >> 1968, two people used that phrase to powerful effect. george wallace, the former governor of alabama, segregationist who was running on third party for president. he said there was not only a need for law and order but there were anarchists and agitators doing bad things. and richard nixon who was afraid of being left behind did the same thing in a slightly more uptown manner. he said, yes, we need law and order but we also need justice. but if you add the wallace vote

in 1968 vote to the nixon vote, that's 65%. if the nation were frozen in ember and 1968 that would help. i think president trump is overly influenced by nixon and wallace whom he observed as about 22-year-old in 1968, i'm not sure it's going to help him very much this year. >> in a den fit for a world-class historian, michael, thank you again for having us in this afternoon. it's such a comfort to ask these questions of you. another break in our coverage. when we come back, again, we're following these two live events. the now under way joint press conference from the white house rose garden. the news conference we're expecting in cobb county, georgia, but what you're seeing on television, the rest of our world. the question about the european union, we were talking about with michael, banning americans

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the top of the hour for "deadline: white house" this afternoon. we're going to go now to the district attorney in cobb county, georgia, announcing the charges in the ahmaud arbery case. >> -- prior to the incident date of this case, then it might be something that we'd be able to look at for this case, but in that it was not, it will not be something that we are able to consider under state law. >> what's next? what's the next step -- next step in the process? >> so we fully anticipate that there will be motions filed by defense council sel in this casd we will answer those motions and appear in court wherever that's scheduled by the judge. >> can you have some more details about the grand jury, where they met, how -- were they in here today? how this took place? >> yes, the grand jurors did come in today pursuant to the summons that was issued by the court. that summons was, it told them

to be here this morning. they arrived at 9:30. heard the facts of the case as well as were oriented about what their duties were. this is a grand jury that was impanelled right at the beginning of the judicial emergency, so they had not heard any other cases prior to today. so when they came in, we did print that information to them as well as the evidence that was similar to what was presented at the preliminary hearing here. and i think you asked about how the court, how it was set up. they did not deliberate in the grand jury room where they would have normally been. we were able to use the jury assembly room, so it allowed for them to socially distance, not be close to any other grand jury. we provided for them the hand sanitizer. everybody had masks on, and we made sure that we followed all the public health guidelines that had been presented by the cdc as well as those guidelines and justice melton's judicial

order and the further guidance on grand juries. >> all total, how long did it take for them to come to this conclusion? with the charges? >> so the presentation, would you say, was about an hour and a half? >> better part of the morning, yes, ma'am. >> and then the true bill came back in less than ten minutes. >> you speak again to the family's reaction to when you called them with this coming just after that hate crime bill? >> oh, the family was ecstatic to hear that it had happened this morning. of course, with everything that's going on, just around the country, with the judicial emergency that's in place, they had no idea when some of the next steps would happen after the last preliminary hearing. so to get that phone call that we were able to call in a grand jury and to do it safely and that they returned a true bill, they were extremely happy about that. >> is there still a possibility of federal -- >> so from the front steps of the judicial building in brunswick, georgia, you've been

listening to joyette holmes, the district attorney in cobb county, georgia, very methodically running through the process, like everything in american life right now, this process has been affected by the pandemic down to what you heard her saying about a change in the venue for deliberations and the grand jury to a larger space for their safety. the headline remains the same. three indictments secured following the killing of ahmaud arbery. it was back in february. we've heard counsel just in the last hour agree that without video of this case, this case doesn't get resolved like this. we also have the dual press conference underway at the white house. we also have the matter of our coverage continuing at the top of the hour with today's deadline white house, hosted by joy reid. i'll see you tonight 11:00 p.m. for the 11th hour. thanks so much for being a part of our coverage. o much for bein of our coverage. how about no

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hello, person. i'm 4:00 in the east. i'm joy reid in for nicole wallace. at a moment in donald trump's presidency and campaign that's beginning feel a lot like a turning of the tide, as trump continues to wrap his arms more and more tightly around some of the darker forces that helped to hand him a victory in 2016. the racism, the conspiracy theori theories, the outright war on truth and facts.

new signs today that those forces may be losing some of their power at the ballot box in a country upended by not one, but two current crisis, landing with a thud inside trump world today, a devastating new poll for the president that shows him a massive, yawning, 14 points behind joe biden nationally. at this intersection of a pandemic and a civil rights uprising in the u.s., with bad marks from voters on trump's responses to both. and before you say national polls don't matter and before you start counting out the four months until election day, a closer look at where biden's lead is coming from should dispel any dougt that trump's campaign is looking at this moment as an emergency. trump is 18 points behind joe biden among independent voters. he's down two points among voters 65 and older. that is a group that he won by nine points in the last election. biden's also up by 28 points among college-educated white

voters. 39 points among white women with a college degree. and on the flip side of that group, whites without a college degree, now, that's the base. that's the group that trump is counting on to make up the ground that least he's losing virtually everywhere else, he's up only 19 points, that's from a 36-point lead in 2016. this isn't the only bright, flashing, warning sign of a poll that's dogged trump's campaign in just the last few weeks. polls from fox news, cnbc, and cnn are all telling the same story of a double-digit lead for joe biden. more and more battleground state polls also show trump in jeopardy. and even some red states like texas, where trump is now in a statistical tie. now, what we'd expect to see in a typical presidential election is some kind of a pivot or adjustment from the candidate, since trump does, after all, have more than four months to go. but so far, we're seeing the opposite from this president.

more racism. just last night in remarks before a crowd in arizona, using a term for the coronavirus that doesn't even bear repeating here, at a moment most americans are calling for reforms around race. more rejection of the basic science, the facts and the guidance on coronavirus. trump once again packing a crowd of his supporters as tightly as possible indoors last night, not requiring masks, and it appears most of his supporters took him up on the option not to wear one. despite the dramatic surge in cases across the south and west that's pushed the country's daily case count back to its highest levels since april. and despite those polls that clearly suggest this isn't the kind of leadership that americans are looking for, trump's conduct indicates that he is, as of now, either unwilling or unable to listen. joining us now, "l.a. times" white house reporter, eli stokols, kimberly atkins, senior correspondent for boston's public news station, former

democratic congresswoman, donna edwards. eli, i'm going to start with you first. because the thing that is confounding about what donald trump is doing is going back and playing the hits, hitting the racism card. you know, hitting the violence card. sort of glorifying the idea of violence against protesters. when the polls are saying that is not working, are people inside of the white house, the campaign, simply not telling him that is not working? or does he not care that that is not working? >> well, you're right, joy. i mean, the racism stuff has been the through line for donald trump going back to central park 5. there are people inside the campaign a little bit frustrated at the president's reluctance or inability to stick to a simple attack line on joe biden and to hammer it again and again. they haven't felt like he's really landed on the right message with joe biden. obviously, biden is a tougher opponent for him than hillary clinton was four years ago. but in terms of the campaign trying to get off some of the more incendiary racist, xenophobic comments, the

campaign generally is taking its cues from the president. the president is the one coming up with the message. he's the messenger, and really, they are calling him every day and sort of sounding him and out and figuring which way the campaign is going to go rather than the reverse of that. and it's really interesting, because you've got a president here who is seeing his support erode. it's down to just the most ardent supporters in the base. and he continues to push those racism buttons that animate only those voters. and for all of those voters who in 2016 made a compromise and said, we'll overlook some of that, we'll overlook the character concerns, because we'll take a shot with this guy, this businessman on the economy, evangelicals saying, well, we'll overlook the character issues, because maybe he'll appoint conservative justices. he has done that, although he's lost some big cases at the supreme court of late, but the economy is just gone. and what you're seeing with the numbers that you showed with the erosion of support from older voters, from white men and women, the president is no

longer appealing to those people who in 2016 said, we'll take a chance on him. now they're seeing his actions in response to a pandemic, in response to all of the upheaval over issues of race, and they are turning toward joe biden, pretty clearly. >> and you know, kim, it is confounding -- i mean, it is confounding unless you know the history of donald trump. this is a guy when the ratings for "the apprentice" began to dip and it was no longer the hottest show on television, his idea was, let's do a black versus white show, howard stern back in 2005. i believe we have that. let's take a listen to that. >> it would be nine blacks against nine whites, all highly educated, very smart, strong, beautiful people, right? >> yes. >> do you like it? >> yes. >> do you like it, robin? >> well, i think you're going to have a riot. >> yes, i like it. >> i mean, you know, it is the way he thinks, right?

that he thinks that if he can pit black people against white people, it's a hit >> he does. he sees that -- that's not only his personal view, but his view of america and his view of supporters. he's tweeted that there is a big, silent majority. so clearly, he is banking on the fact that there are people who will respond to this racial grievance-laden, divisive message that will propel him by insulting others. i mean, in his speeches this week, he not only used the racial slur to describe asians, to talk about the coronavirus, he did it for his panpanic peop talking about a man who will be lurking in the wings and won't be able to call 911. this is literally a story he made up, because there was no

actual real person to hit at, even when he talks about joe biden, he says things like, joe biden isn't running his own campaign. that the campaign and democratic party are being run by alexandria ocasio-cortez and ilhan omar. he's picking women of color to be the villain, because it's much harder to make that case against joe biden. there was an interesting piece today against adam serwer in the atlantic who said, it's really hard to make this a race-laden, hateful, divisive message when your opponent is a fairly moderate older white guy, but he's still trying to do it, because he doesn't have the economy. remember, at this point, he thought he was going to be running on keep america great. he thought he was going to have a soaring stock market and a strong economy to run on and the coronavirus has wiped that out. he's retreating to what he knows, which is the racial grievance divisive message that helped propel him in 2016, even though 2020 is a very, very different place. >> well, it's a very different

place. and donna, has somebody who has run for office, it is confounding. because normally politicians do what makes sense, even if what makes sense is offensive and is terrible. george wallace initially ran as the friend of the black man, the friend of the negro. that didn't work. he lost. he said he was never going to be out-n-worded again. he turned into the george wallace we now know from history and he ran as hard on racism as you possibly could. and when he needed black voters again, he pivoted back the other way. usually politicians are flexible in that sense, they do what works. in this case, donald trump is facing more than 5,000 new cases in just a single day in florida, a state he has to win. you have florida voters saying, we don't want him to come down here. even republicans don't want him to come to do his big finale there. he's sickening his own people. more than 100,000 people infected in the country. this race grievance thing will not fix that. it doesn't make sense to me. do you have, as a former politician, does it make sense to you?

>> well, it doesn't make sense at all. the reality is the president doesn't listen to anyone's counsel other than his own. so even if he had a campaign team that was giving him good advice, he's not prone to take that. and i think, for us, to think that he's sort of reaching back to his race-baiting playbook, it is a playbook that he's actually never left. he has used that both through his previous campaign in 2016 and of course, all through his presidency. because i think that he's a believer. i believe that -- i mean, i'm not afraid to say it anymore, and i used to be careful about it, the man is a racist. and he doesn't -- he doesn't seem to be able to do anything but to reach to those cards, because it makes him feel good. he's got an audience at a rally, you know, cheering him on. even though it is the most narrow of a base that he could

possibly have. and i think when you start digging deep into these polls, that he's planning to run a 2020 campaign, or he is, like he ran 2016. except that he has a different opponent and it's a completely different landscape. and when he's starting to lose college-educated white women, starting to draw down on white men who are beginning to favor joe biden over donald trump, he has a real problem here. and i don't think that that's going to be made up by him trying to gin up a very small base that even if they all turned up on election day, cannot win this election. but i don't think democrats can be complacent about that either. >> no, i don't think they can be complacent at all, eli. and just statistically, donald trump will probably win a majority of the white vote. however, if you look at the polls, it's what components of it they can hold on to. yes, you'll get a majority of white working class voters, but

off piece out now about they're running on the wall again. they're back to building the wall. so there is an anti-immigrant sort of xenophobic, hard core. you heard it when donald trump used that slur to describe coronavirus. and i was talking about the great team on nicole's show, about what struck me was the crowd, the roaring, the sort of guttural scream that those people just viscerally enjoyed and, you know, reveled in that racist moment. but when other people who are not in the trump base listen to that, a lot of people are like, i don't want to be in that club, i don't want to be associated with that. that doesn't draw new people. and i guess i just wonder, even if this is who donald trump is, i wonder if other republicans who have to run for re-election feel comfortable running with that? >> it doesn't seem like they do, but they also don't have much choice, because they don't want to antagonize the president and have a volt where republicans who support donald trump stay home.

so it puts them in a tough position. we've heard some republican senators, john thune we've said today say, well, it would be better if the president come up with some different rhetoric. they kind of tiptoe around the obvious thing when they talk about it, but you can sense the discomfort. to your point, joy, you're right. this is a different country than it was four years ago, then it was four months ago. especially on issues of race. we've seen in the polling that three out of every four americans support these protests, and that just tells you that the president's politics are predicated on the idea of being able to stop time, to turn back the clock, to make america great again. and to really halt the social and cultural and demographic changes that are taking place. this is a moment that underscores, i think, in terms of the response to the protests, especially, that this country socially, at least, is moving in a different direction and the president is kind of stuck in this 2016 mind-set. and he's just further isolating himself by continuing to hammer down on that sort of very narrow idea of what america is and

should be. >> yeah, you know, kim, it strikes me that barack obama, eight years of barack obama produced like a fury among some white americans, who thought, we have to stop this tide. we can't have him followed by a woman. as michael moore described it, and then you'll have the first lbgt president will go on and on and there'll never be a chance for the white men to be president again. and that anger and rage helped donald trump sneak barely into office. but now we're four years into trump. and people have experienced him. people who understand what this looks like, what that backlash feels like. and for a lot of americans, you know, some of these protests that we're seeing in the street, lots and lots of white people marching in them, the agreement in the polls about whether or not police brutality is real against black people and against brown people and indigenous people, most white americans agree, too. it's weird that the pivot has not been made by the entire republican party. they're all still stuck in 2016. >> well, i think a couple of

things have happened. i think that pivot has happened to the extent it has very, very quickly in recent months. and i think it's a combination of seeing these protests, seeing that awful -- like the one-two punch of the videos of ahmaud arbery and george floyd. and this was happening during a pandemic. what a lot of reporters have heard from trump supporters or from republicans about his tweets, about his racist statements has been, oh, you know, i don't like it when he does that. i don't like it when he does that. but he's doing a good job and i wish he wouldn't tweet so much. with everyone's focus, with many people sheltering at home, with many people watching the news about the pandemic so carefully because it's affecting their lives, they couldn't just dismiss it. they were watching his reaction, his response to the coronavirus, and watching the reckoning that the nation is having with systemic racism and a lot of people who didn't realize the extent that systemic racism exists, not just in the criminal justice system, but beyond, has

led to this awakening. that's why you see more people in suburbs and beyond supporting this movement. and so this movement is moving faster than i think, certainly, than the president realizes. and even more -- faster than a lot of republicans are realizing. so it's a moment that is moving so fast, it's leaving some folks here in washington behind. >> yeah, and you know, donna it, seems like joe biden messed around and ran in the perfect year for joe biden. he kind of fits the moment, because he is a candidate that doesn't scare, you know, white suburbia at all. he's not a woman or, you know, a person of color. he's giving you sort of a warm blanket to run to from donald trump's version of america. is there something that you would say he would need to be doing right now, other than just being joe biden? because that seems to be working for him right now. >> well, i think it does. you know, i listen in and watch the event that he did with the

former president barack obama last night and what i could hear is that people really do warm to joe biden sort of, that he's just very comfortable in himself. and he's likable. and he's a person of integrity. and that was validated by obama, and i think that for joe biden, the contrast between him and donald trump is so significant. the contrast in character and in integrity, in truth telling. and i think that the american people want that. and i think that what joe biden has to do is make sure that all of us, from the top of the ticket to the bottom of the ticket, are very enthusiastic about his candidacy, enough to show up in rain, snow, sleet, and hail to vote for him. and with our masks. >> very quickly, we have to go, but does that mean picking a black woman running mate? because that's been a big question, last question to you donna. >> well, i've written that i

think it just means that he has to choose a running mate that is really going to complement his weaknesses and bring strength to the party. i think there are plenty of black women that can do that and a number of white women under consideration who can do that, too. i just want him to get on with a choice so we can get on with getting rid of this president. >> all right, eli stokols, kim atkins, appreciate you both. donna will be back a little bit later. when we come back, william barr's justice department is under even more scrutiny today. testimony from officials has blown the whistle on how much of a role politics plays in what's supposed to be the home of america's lawyer, not the president's. and charles booker keeping things too close to call in last night's kentucky senate primary contest. should he pull out the win? how does he stand against mitch mcconnell in november? i'll ask him! charles booker joins us in just a few minutes. plus, police reform stalled in the senate. republicans put forward changes democrats called anything but

meaningful. where does something that an overwhelming majority of the public wants go from here? all those stories, coming up. h? all those stories, coming up ve. it's what we've always said makes subaru, subaru. and right now, love is more important than ever. in response to covid-19, subaru and our retailers are donating fifty million meals to feeding america, to help feed those who now need our help. its all part of our commitment to our communities through subaru loves to help. love, it's what makes subaru, subaru. i don't have to worry about that, do i?are irritated. harmful bacteria lurk just below the gum line. crest gum detoxify, voted product of the year.

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i was privileged to serve in the department of justice under two republican and one democratic presidents and i am here because i believe that william barr poses the greatest threat in my lifetime to our rule of law and to public trust in it. that is because he does not believe in its core principle, that no person is above the law. instead, since taking office, he has worked to advance his lifelong conviction that the president should hold virtually autocratic powers. that includes immunity from nearly all checks and balances and being able to accord special treatment to himself and his

friends. >> former attorney general donald ayer warning the house judiciary committee about the country's top law enforcement officer. at today's hearing, examining the politicization of the justice department. it's in front of this committee that bill barr has now said that he will testify in late july. barr has evaded appearing before house judiciary, since taking the job early last year. in addition to ayer, there were two current justice department officials testifying. one of them, aaron zelensky said politics were at play when the doj pushed for a more lenient sentence against trump associate, roger stone. >> that the acting u.s. attorney for the district of columbia was receiving heavy pressure from the highest levels of the department of justice and that his instructions to us were based on political considerations. and i was told that the acting u.s. attorney was giving stone a break because he was afraid of the president of the united states. >> stone's case wasn't the only one involving a trump ally that the doj has intervened in. barr ordered that the case

against former national security adviser michael flynn be dismissed and today, a divided appeals court ruled in the doj's favor. joining our conversation, host of the msnbc podcast "the oath," chuck rosenberg. so chuck, this is it. we now have a former justice department leader saying that this man does not even believe in the rule of law. he believes in helping out the president's friends and going after his enemies, apparently. and now you have political intervention in cases that you have people inside the justice department testifying to. what can be done about that? is it even possible or feasible that barr should face something like impeachment? >> well, i think politically, joy, it's not feasible. there's not a lot of time left before the election and the house has not indicated any interest in this. but look, the things we heard today are important. we knew some of it. we knew that mr. stone had received favorable treatment. we knew that mr. flynn had

received favorable treatment. you know, there was a portion of the testimony today, though, that i think was really illuminating. a current justice department attorney in the anti-trust division described the fact, and i know it sounds kind of dry to talk about antitrust, but bear with me. described the fact that they were ordered to open investigations into companies or into industries that the attorney general didn't like. so think about a sword and a shield. the justice department didn't properly use the shield to protect friends of the president, like stone and flynn. but improperly used a sword to go after industries and companies that were disfavoreded. and both of those things are repugnant, deeply troubling, and undermine the rule of law. >> well, i mean, that does not sound like the actions of a united states attorney general. it sounds like the actions of the hand of the king. i mean, it seems to me -- i've had lawyer friends say to me

that they believe that mr. barr is a monarchist and he essentially believes, as long as it's a republican, that the president should be able to exercise almost king-like power. is that what we're looking at here? >> well, even if you subscribe to bill barr's theory about the unitary executive and the immense power wielded by a president, none of that, joy, is an excuse for using the implement, the sharp implement of the justice department to help friends and hurt enemies, right? so i think of those as two very different things. you could believe in a unitary executive. you could believe that the constitution bestows on a president immense authors. you can believe all of that. i don't, by the way. i think it's much more balanced. but you could believe in that and still not think it's appropriate for the president of the united states, through his attorney general, to punish enemies. and that's what we're seeing. and so, look, what we heard today is both not terribly

surprising and completely shocking. we've seen the contours of this in other ways. we've seen the favoritism that the president and the attorney general have shown for flynn and stone manifest in other ways. we've seen the mischaracterization of the mueller report. we've seen the president pardon allies. we've seen the president call for the prosecution of enemies. this is another manifestation of that. and it is despicable. >> and then i guess the question is, you know, with richard nixon, his attorney general, ultimately faced legal consequences of his own and was prosecuted. is any of what we're seeing bill barr do criminal? and could he face criminal sanction for it in the next administration? >> well, that's a really good question. you're referring, first of all, to john mitchell, richard nixon's attorney general, who was prosecuted and was convicted, because clearly, he had committed crimes. i don't know that i see that here. what i see is incredibly repugnant. it undermines the rule of law.

it's despicable. but there's a difference between something that is awful and something that is illegal. now, you and i sitting here don't know everything. there's lots of stuff we don't know. there's lots of facts that might have to be developed. but from what i see in the public domain, i am disgusted by the attorney general's behavior, but that doesn't make him a criminal. and look, by the way, that distinction is important for all of us. the rule of law matters, or at least should matter, to every administration, to every attorney general, and to every president. and so i hope that the next administration, and i hope there is a next administration very soon, doesn't come in with a vendetta. the type of things we heard regarding hillary clinton, lock her up, are repugnant. and i don't want to see that from any american leader. >> chuck rosenberg, always great talking with you. thank you very much. really appreciate you spending some time with us. and after the break, the race to challenge mitch mcconnell is still too close to call.

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the american people have shown that they are hungry for change. we've seen it in protests out on the streets and now we're seeing it in primary elections that can bring some upsets for longtime incumbents and party-backed favorites. nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki on one of the biggest contests last night, the democratic senate primary race in kentucky. the winner will go on to challenge majority liter mitch mcconnell. steve, do we even have a winner yet? take it quaaway? >> we don't have a winner. it will probably be a few days, a week in kentucky to get all the results in. we have some numbers, can take you through what we know. it says 10% reported. about 10% of the total number of votes we think will be cast in this race. about 10% of them right now have been reported.

what you see is that mcgrath, amy mcgrath with a small lead over charles booker of about six points here. what goes into that lead, basically some of the counties, not all of the counties in kentucky, but some of the counties in kentucky have released the vote that was cast in person yesterday and then the early vote. there were some folks who went in and voted early in person in kentucky. all told, about 25% of the people either voted yesterday or voted early. and we have some of that in here. some of that's accounted here. what's still to come is the mother lode. it's the mail-in ballots, hundreds of thousands of those. those will be counted basically a little less than a week from now. the key thing to keep in mind with these numbers, one thing to say, jefferson county, the biggest in the state. that's where louisville is, that's where booker is from, and fayette county, that's where lexington is. there's only a couple of precincts that reported in lexington, none from jefferson county. those tend to be two of the stronger areas from booker. one way of looking at this is if the very, very partial returns

we have right now, mcgrath wants to be running up numbers there, because the expectation is when you get louisville and when you get lexington, that's where booker makes his move. so if he's close and those haven't been counted, he's in good shape. we will see. >> all right, i look forward to watching you do the big board and tell us who won, because i always love watching you do that. steve kornacki, thank you very much. appreciate you spending some time with us. and joining us now, one of those candidates in the democratic senate primary race in kentucky, state representative charles booker. okay, i don't know if you were able to see the big board there, representative booker. but you are very, very close. louisville has not come in, lexington has not come in. we're still waiting on that. how confident are you that you're going to pull this out? >> well, i'm feeling really good. i'm inspired. i'm proud of kentucky. we have taken a stand, we have defied the odds and we're fired up. and i know as those votes come in, they're going to be for me. because i stood beside the people that are crying out and

demanding change. what we're seeing now is history, herstory, ourstory is being made. and we're going to win this primary. i'm excited to see the numbers come in to confirm, but we're feeling good about our chances now. >> and i'm glad you said herstory, because it feels like the breonna taylor case is really looming large over the result. a lot of people had presumed that amy mcgrath was going to walk away with it and something changed, something happened with breonna taylor's killing by police. you were a part of those protests. you were out there in the street, you know, being a part of that movement. how much has that changed the way that kentucky voters were thinking going in? >> well, you know, i think leadership is defined by how you show up in the moments when you need it most. and we were grieving in the streets. there's a lot of pain and trauma, even right now. and you know, i stood in those streets, because that's where my family was. the people of kentucky are my family. and they threw tear gas at them and threw it at them, too. but i didn't back down, and

neither did kentucky. and in this moment where we're demanding justice and accountability for breonna taylor and mr. mcatoee, the barbecue man, we're talking about the root causes of why these things happen. and it speaks to my platform of change, that we address racism within our institutions, and we push for an understanding that we can invest in people, prioritize people and uplift our communities so these things don't happen again. and because we're showing that courageous leadership, even in the height of racial tension, the people of kentucky are saying, we know he's the leader to push us forward and we're going to stand with him. and you kn >> and i saw you on twitter, a lot of people retweeted you as you were telling people to stay in line yesterday. only 200 apolopolling places wh there used to be 3,000. there's a lot of concern in a state like kentucky that voter suppression will be a part of the mix in november. how confident are you that kentuckyians will have the ability to vote freely in

november? >> well, i'll tell you, i'm confident that we're going to fight like hell to make sure they can. kentucky has been one of the most disenfranchised states in the country. so historically, it's hard to vote here. and having one polling location in an area the size of jefferson county just naturally suppresses votes. and then changing the location, a lot of folks not even understanding that there would be one central location. and also having one time of 6:00 p.m., when a lot of traffic is converging on one location. so we're going to be mindful of the opportunity to make sure that we have everyone be heard at the ballot box and we'll be ready to fight when those pass the block. kentucky needs to be heard in this moment. our voices matter too much and i'm working with our government to make sure we can do it. >> absolutely, you're going after the guy at top of the senate, mitch mcconnell. let's go through a little bit about him. a lot of people write off these southern states like kentucky

and say, a democrat can't win there, but i will note the governor of your state right now is a democrat, andy bashir. his dad is a democrat. andy bashir won with 49.2% of the vote, beat matt bevin. black voters, 95.7% voted for andy bashir. so if the black vote is motivated and mobilized, democrats can win in kentucky. let's talk about your would-be opponent, if you prevail in the primary. mitch mcconnell, unpopular. his favorable ratings, 23%. unfavorable, 46%. and yet, when you are polled against him, either yourself, really, or amy mcgrath, he gets like 52, 53% of the vote against either one of you. how do you beat him if he's that unpopular, but still manages to pull ahead? >> well, joy, when you come from a place like where i come from, the polls typically don't account for us with, because no one listens to us. turnout tends to be lower in kentucky because a lot of people have given up and they haven't felt like it made a difference.

that's why my campaign, our campaign, is so important, because we're inspiring people to believe that things can actually be different, that this is bigger than beating him, which is why we're having folks that are organizing across kentucky that have never been involved before. so we're going to defy the odds and defy those polls. and i know it's true. the only way you beat mitch mcconnell is by taking the fight to him. holding him accountable for what he's done, but also inspiring people to know that if they speak up, no matter where they're from, what pronoun they use, whether they're walking in a wheelchair, whether they look like me or not, that they matter, we'll build the movement that money can't beat. that mitch mcconnell's corruption can't stop, and we'll win this. and there is nothing mitch can do about it. >> i will tell you, the races that i'm going to be paying attention to in november are going to all be southern races, because i think the south is where the action is this year. charles booker, wishing you very much luck. thank you for rapidfire coming on with us. thank you very much for giving us some of your time.

>> of course, my pleasure. >> thank you. all right, and after the break, police reform stalling in the senate. what republicans officially proposed today and why the democrats rejected it, next. the democrats rejected it, next.

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now senate democrats just sent a very clear signal that the senate republican justice act lacks the substance and the strong desperately-needed

reforms to stop police brutality against black americans. this bill lost because it was woefully inadequate. it never would have passed. and mcconnell provided no path to improve it. so it was going to lose the minute he put it together and the more cynical among us would say, that's why he did it. >> it was only last week lawmakers seemed so eager to harness the national momentum to quickly address police reform in a bipartisan manner. but as we said here today, things are at a standstill. democrats this afternoon blocked a proposal from republicans, once supported by donald trump. democrats accused the gop of pushing a toothless piece of legislation just for the sake of checking off a box. and to their point, the republican bill struck down today did not include a ban on choke holds, did not include a ban on no-knock warrants, and did not address qualified immunity. joining me now for our conversation, former federal prosecutor, paul butler. plus, donna edwards is also

back. and paul, it only makes sense to pass a bill if the bill does something. i guess it's good election politics, but it doesn't change anything. let me see if you think what these two bills have. the democratic bill has a bill on choke holds, which is the exact issue the george floyd case is about. it tracks police misconduct, has a national registry. it has a federal civil rights law, it would amend it. it changes qualified immunity, so police can actually be sued if they violate someone's rights. and it gets rid of no-knock warrants and bans those in drug case. the republican bill doesn't do any of that. so what -- you know, having looked at these two bills, what would the republican bill have accomplished other than, i don't know, give a few talking points to a few people up for re-election? >> the republican bill is like, wouldn't it be lovely if the police were more accountable? i wish they would be. the democratic bill says, unless the police step up their game,

they're not getting money. the democrats say they're going to take away any federal funding to local departments unless they enact measures like a ban on no-knock warrants, racial bias training for cops. you know, joy, i had the honor of testifying in front of the house judiciary committee on the democratic bill and at that session, the republicans didn't attack any of the provisions. they couldn't because they were all common sense. the republicans spent a lot of time talking about defund the police, but that's not in any bill that's before congress. the irony is that in the president's executive order, he talks about the need for co-responders, so when police answer a call, there might also be mental health providers or counselors. that's defund the police and that's coming from president trump, not any democrat.

>> well, yeah, and the whole defund the police debate, donna, i found a lot of hand wringing from democrats about that term, defund the police. but here's the bottom line. you don't look at a slogan for whether you like the sound of it, you look at it whether it works. from a marketing standpointing with defund the police is winning this argument. you have states and localities saying, maybe we should shift some money, even trump is saying, maybe we should shift some money toward mental health responders. maybe we should shift some of the money that would give to police overtime, toward intervention programs. that is what defund the police is. so all the hand wringing to me doesn't seem to make any sense. what's actually happening is that the defund the police side is winning, right? >> well, i mean, i wasn't wringing my hands. and part of the reason is because i think it's really appropriate, frankly, for activities, for those who are demanding change to really demand the strongest change possible. and we'll see what moves. and we've seen that that -- that there's been movement at the state and local level, mostly at

the local level on defunding the police, shifting resources, looking at these budgets that really don't make sense in the context of other things that communities need. and so, when i look at the house bill and the senate bill, what i see there is republicans wanting people to get off the streets, wanting to take the issue out of the headlines. and so they've created this sort of shell reform bill that really, when stacked up against the house bill, even stacked up, of course, against the democrats' bill in the senate, really just doesn't meet the mark of reform. and certainly doesn't meet the demand of activists who are going to continue whether republicans like it or not. mitch mcconnell is not going the get his way on this one. >> well, you know, paul, you had all of these senators who are up for re-election, including mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham stand behind tim scott as he

pretended that he was proposing some reforms, because that's what they needed to do electorally. i know a lot of what you have said would actually change policing. can you just walk us through it? if you have police officers that are doing the blue flu, they're mad because police officers who shot someone in the back got fired and charged or they say, well, if we shove a 75-year-old on the ground and get disciplined for it, we're just not going to come to work, what would actually change police behavior? what actual, you know, reforms would actually work? >> great question, joy. and what works is transforming police culture. so in atlanta, what the police officers did when they shot mr. brooks in the back two times was horrible, but now we see police officers in sympathy to those killer cops or the one killer cop walking off the job or calling in with the blue flu. in buffalo, we saw one officer

knock over a 75-year-old man and it was just as bad when 57 other officers quit the squad the next day, because they wanted to support their officer who committed comitted a crime. so this is warrior culture. president obama commission of the 21st century policing of a better model is guardian. if you think about it, a whole different mind-set. a whole different resume a whole different skill set is, applies for a job to be a guardian as opposed to being a warrior. unless you have that culture change amongst police departments, none of the reforms will matter one bit. >> and indeed, does it surprise you, paul, we've seen additional civilians choked by police during the protests that we've seen police behave brutally during the protests? that nothing changed even during the protests. what we've seen is police unions claiming hourly workers are

trying to poison officers. we haven't seen a change at all. >> joy, i always imagine that roll call that morning, the sergeants telling the officers, hey, guys, we're policing a rally today about police brutality, and racism. let's try really hard not to be brutal. let's try really hard not to treat black people differently. it's almost like they can't help themselves. again, it's that warrior mentality, and until you get those old-school folks off the job who went in the because they wanted to be rough and tumble with the bad guys, until you change that mentality, it's not going to make police officers more accountable and more transparent, or one quick fix. if half the officers were women that would make a huge women. police women use less force, they're way less violent and that male officers and just as good law enforcement officers. >> there's one other concrete idea.

paul butler, donana edwards, thank you for spending time with me this afternoon. and join me for a special report paep t report. "the road to reform." that's right here at 7:00 p.m. eastern. al question on police reform you want answered on the show visit msnbc.com/townhall. and that is a town hall this friday night, 7:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. do not miss it. after the break, we can't end the show without it. a celebration of lives well lived. lived. tant. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. after about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didn't notice before. - it's still helping me. i still notice a difference.

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paul, minnesota. providing care regardless of a person's insurance or ability to pay. noble work conducted by a noble man. patients asked for him by name. so did colleagues. there were people working at the clinic who said they were there only because they wanted to be with abasha pap great tragedy when he dieds of the coronavirus a week and a half ago at the age of 63. his final wish, to be buried in tanzania where he was born. so we wish him luck on that final journey. speaking of noble people, we're also celebrating lisa berhannan today of harrisburg, pennsylvania. she lost her son to gun violence in 2009. she dedicated her life to action. her resume ought to put her on the short list for sainthood according to penn live, she worked in the school district, taught classes in prison, served meals to the homeless. supervised a re-entry home for

women and volunteered as a hospital chaplain. she was supremely kind, equally fierce, and she knew how to manage a project. amp lisa contracted the coronavirus, when she felt things taking a turn for the worse, she made lists. what she wanted at her funeral. what music to play. who should speak, and where they should sit. lisa died earlier this month. so we're mourning for her family today, but also for the greater harrisburg community. and their irreplaceable loss. that does it for this hour. i'm joy reid in for nicolle wallace. i'll be back at 7:00 p.m. eastern and our coverage continues with chuck todd right after this quick break. after this quick break. when the murray's started using gain ultra flings they fell in love with its irresistible scent.

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