in order to -- for the officer to not be covered by qualified immunity, the plaintiff has to show that the officer violated clearly established law, and this is the difficult part, and then point to a case that has already been decided with similar circumstances. now, joy, i can tell you that is near impossible and that's what really makes it extremely difficult to hold officers that

have been reckless in their behavior accountable. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." during a special town hall congresswoman val demings addressed police reform and what they're doing to make real reform a real. one month after a minneapolis police officer ended the life of 46-year-old george floyd, we're still hearing story after story of disturbing police encounters involving unarmed black americans. and now that there is a focus on police brutality, months old cases are being reinvestigated. 23-year-old elijah mcclain died three days after he was put in a chokehold by police in aurora colorado last august. he was stopped for walking after police got a call about a suspicious person wearing a ski mask. something elijah mcclain wore, his family said, because he was anemic so he would get cold easily.

the colorado governor has called on the state's attorney general to reopen the case. in georgia 47-year-old antonio smith filed a lawsuit yesterday against the valdosta police department for excessive force after his wrist was injured during a wrongful arrest back in february. here's some of the body cam footage which i will warn you is hard to watch. >> oh, my god. what are you doing? >> put your hands behind your back like you're told. >> what are you doing? oh, my god. oh, jesus. i wasn't doing anything. oh, my god. oh, my god, you broke my wrist. oh, my god, you broke my wrist. oh, my god. >> he might be broke. >> oh, jesus. oh, my god. >> in wilmington, north carolina, three police officers have been fired after a routine audit of video recordings

captured a racist rant shortly after protests began. one of the officers referred to a black woman as a negro. another criticized the department saying its only concern was kneeling down with the black folks. that same officer went on to say he feels a civil war is coming and that he is ready. he said he was going to buy a new assault rifle and, soon, quote, we are just going to go out and start slaughtering them expletive blacks. i can't wait. god, i can't wait. now it's bad enough the law enforcement officials abuse their power and it's on a completely different level when duly elected official leaders do it. take st. louis mayor lida krusam who was forced to apologize hours after reading the names and the addresses of people who wrote to her office about defunding the police. it happened during the mayor's facebook live briefing yesterday. take a listen. >> here's one that wants 50 million to go to cure violence.

75 million to go to affordable housing. 60 million to go to health and human services and have zero go to the police. so that's a [ bleep ] on who is [ bleep ] no police, no money going to police. here's somebody [ bleep ] and i think it is -- wants all the money to go to cure violence, affordable housing, nothing to go to police. that address is [ bleep ]. >>audacity, the audacity of her constituents to require reform. joining us is a packed panel. paul butler. former federal prosecutor and author of "chokehold."

i'm going to you first, brittney, on this. the st. louis mayor issued a statement after reading the names and addresses of constituents. she said while this is public information i did not mean to cause distress or harm to anyone. i'm wondering how you could do that by reading out people's addresses, telling people where people live and then reading out where they wanted money to go to instead of police. you're the person -- the only reason i know about this, you alerted me to this statement. >> as a native st. louisan, this is par for the course of what folks in my city experience. she has been a mayor for 23 years. she very well knows the difference between a sunshine request, which requires forms and fees and a process and wantonly and openly reading the names, identifying information and addresses of the citizens that she is sworn to protect. imagine the message of

permission that is going to a police department that continues to kill people with impunity, that continues to harm peaceful protestors and against a backdrop of the continued stalking and harming over the last six years since the ferguson uprising of those very protesters and organizers. those folks are getting a very clear permission slip to not only continue that intimidation but to move forward. local activists and leaders are very clearly calling for hers resignation. there needs to be a clear punishment for wantonly and recklessly endangering your citizens. that resignation needs to happen urgently and immediately. they are very, very clear that a social media apology won't do because the harm is already done. >> it is pretty remarkable, but it shows you, phillip, the fusion between a lot of elected officials who run on this tough on crime mantra and the police and the fusion is heart to break as hard as it is to break

between police and prosecutors, which is why so few of them ever get prosecuted for anything, even if they kill someone. you have a change and the minneapolis city council is moving to defund police. sorry to that mayor, this woman, some people are starting to move to defund the police, to defund the police and establish a holistic public safety force. under the proposed plan, the city would eliminate the existing police department and replace it with a department of community safety and violence prevention which will have responsibility for public safety services prioritizing a holistic public health oriented approach. it would be overseen by a director nominated by the mayor and approved by the city council. only those with nonlaw enforcement will be eligible to hold the post. phillip, is this a model for what could be done?

listen, there is a defund the police movement. there is an abolition of police movement that is out there that needs to be addressed. people are saying replace this whole system with something like what minneapolis is getting. what do you make of it. >> yeah, what's happening in minneapolis is genuinely unprecedented. i have no idea whether or not it's going to be a model because they haven't finished with it yet, but what that vote did was it took exclusive authority over appointing a police chief away from the mayor, put it in the hands of the city council. it's saying this system that is unbroken from a time when law enforcement was brought in to engage with run away slaves, when law enforcement was brought in to ensure people stayed in their homes and got home by sun down, that that system needs to be broken down and rebuilt up again. the question is going to be, how is it rebuilt. these are bold actions. unprecedented. i can't say loudly enough, i can't look away right now. imagine what it would look like in st. louis if we hadn't had

the last six weeks. these sort of statements aren't anomalies. this is 23 years of service for this particular woman who we say sorry to. this is happening in parks and recs with the elected officials of the state. if we look away, we're going right back to it. we'll have really well-intentioned new rules and regulations that can go left really fast where you have a new name on the exact same kind of viciousness and unaccountability to the public. i'm hoping, i'm exhorting the public, right now is the time when it's rare for a show like this to have this at the very top. thank you, joy, for putting it on. we can't look away because the most common thing at the end of "the cycle" is not the beginning, it's not the middle where government decides it

wants to get involved, it's the end where we decide to forget for folks who live in the communities. >> you know, i think about eric garner. i can't breathe was the thing that we heard six years ago with eric garner, huge marches, huge upheaval and then nothing. this is revolutionary that we're seeing within one month of george floyd's also i can't breathe death, we have actual legislation on the floor. we don't know what mitch mcconnell is going to do with it, but at least in the house they've passed something substantial. i want to get the police chief involved here. this is just in the last two weeks. we've seen aurora officers involved in a like ga mcclain's arrest. they have been reassigned. this is one year after the 23-year-old man was killed. this is the denver post. that was done to protect the officers according to detective faith good rich, a spokesman for the aurora police department. the officers are pulled out for their own protection. you have a denver post article

from november of 2019. dave young declined to file any charges against the aurora officers in the death of elijah mcclain. young said friday the officer's perception, it went from an ininvestigatory store to a life threatening incident and it raised the officers' use of force. it's improbable for the prosecutors to prove a cause of death beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury. nypd officer charged with strangulation after putting a man in an apparent chokehold. officer david affendor was charged after putting ricky into a chokehold. it goes on and on and on and on. i'm sorry to make you have to speak for the entire profession, sheriff, but this isn't

changing. when protesters are charging, they're acting up more. officers are angry that some officers have sympathy for the dead. you're seeing people bring up cases from years earlier where people are being choked and choked and choektd and choked all over this country and it's disproportionately black people and brown people and indigenous people. for a lot of people, sheriff, a lot of people believe that the police system cannot be fixed, that it is so broken, people are really afraid of, naturally afraid of or just cannot stand black and brown people that it has to be scrapped. from a law enforcement point of view you have to deal with some of these people who you have to work with. you can't fire. do you understand why a lot of people say scrap the whole thing? >> i first of all thank you very much for having this format, and

everybody on this panel because you are right on this mark. some of these departments do need to be scrapped. some of them. you need to look at them and see what they've been doing in the past and scrap them. all of this is coming up because it needs to come out. i've been a police officer for 27 years. i'm now the sheriff of the county in philadelphia. these incidents are not new. our black civic organization has been speaking out against these incidents for a long time. started in 1956, a black officers coming together because of how people were treating our community and us. you had black cops against police brutality. under dr. davis, he has formed these organizations that fight against these institutions and these organizations didn't just not start today. we've been screaming about this forever. we're like, yes, now everybody sees what we've been seeing

inside. this is the fight that has to continue. we are for the struggle. we are for these protesters. something needs to be changed in these institutions and we going to make sure, but here's what we need to also look at. and some people are missing this. we had officers speaking out against these issues a long time ago and yet they were fired. give me one for one. carol horn in buffalo. she did the same thing that you are asking cops to do today, stop them from choking us, she did that, she was fired. she is devastated. she was 19 years. lost her pension. devastated to the point she was living in the shelter. these are the people you have to come out and support because if our departments consist of more than other folks than us, some of us do this mess, too, let me not stop that. some of us play into this game,

but if these institutions don't help support those who step up and speak out, my life was threatened in philadelphia when i was the guardian to shut down dome lights which dome lights was a website that white cops was on there talking about black people in such a negative way, even talking about babies. wanted to go to a swim class. oh, we going to get her ass out her house so she can be raped outside an aids clinic. threatened. so if you don't help support those that step up and speak out, help them. i'm seeing today caroline horn lives off a go fund me. if you are about change and they're talking about they are about don't like racism, anti-racism, support the ones that step up and speak out on these issues. i'm saying, let's go. do the work. >> absolutely. paul, we talk about this all the time. i feel like we talk about this

every week, but i remember a case in baltimore, this was a white officer who spoke out, against the abuse of black people in that community and he had to leave baltimore, change cities and moved because he was so harassed because he spoke out. there's a culture inside of policing. there's the work of policing and the culture of it. the culture of it says don't speak out against everyone else. if i file a report that says it went this way, you all agree with me. you saw a black officer in the case of walter scott agree with the report that was filed by the killer of walter scott who knew what he had done, that he had dropped a taser to make walter scott look like a criminal. he's now in prison but only because the feds came and got him because the jury hung because the woman who went to prosecute him, she gave a soft case that blamed walter scott for his own death. that collusion happened there,

too. it's difficult to break this culture. that's why a lot of people have moved past. yeah, defund these organizations or maybe just scrap them and start again. >> with dysfunctional police departments, there's two sets of rules. one is what we learned in the police academy, what rookies are taught about the constitution and their duty to be accountable, their duty to serve and protect and then there's another set, the law of streets. what rookies are taught when experienced officers take them on patrols and say this is how it really works. and with dysfunctional police departments, how it really works is choke holds. even when they're banned, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, especially if the suspect is black or hispanic and the suspect is always black or hispanic in too many of these

districts. the sheriff is completely right that oftentimes minority law enforcement officers will have very different positions, both on policy issues and sometimes, but not always, on how they treat folks in the street. the problem is the police leadership tends to be represented by these unions that are controlled by older white officers, almost exclusively male, who aren't down with modern day policing in dire verse cumulatiommunumulativommc. they aren't on board with the change in transformation that's necessary in this moment. >> yeah. the public, including black and brown and indigenous people are paying, paying for that service. the officer who killed george floyd could collect $1 million in pension even if he's convicted. we're paying for this abuse and that is the thing that's the

problem. i wish we had more time. sheriff, thank you so much. paul will be back in our next hour. coming up, donald trump's re-election strategy puts americans at risk again. that's next. what getting fueled with one protein feels like. what getting fueled with three energy packed proteins feels like. meat! cheese! and nuts! p3. because 3 is better than 1

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what's at stake in this election is you compare and contrast and what are your top priority items for a second term? >> well, one of the things that will be really great -- you know, the word experience is still good. i always say talent is more important than experience. i've always said that. but the word experience is a very important word. it's a very important meaning. i never did this before. i never slept over in washington. i was in washington i think 17 times. all of a sudden i'm president of the united states. you know the story, i'm riding down pennsylvania avenue with our first lady and i say, this is great, but i didn't know very many people in washington.

it wasn't my thing. i was from manhattan, from new york, now i know everybody. >> you know how i was walking down the street in manhattan and all of a sudden i was president. what was your question again? i'm sorry. i'm sure even fox news viewers were probably completely confused by donald trump's incoherent answer to a softball question on what his second term priorities would be. a new fox poll, that is right, a fox poll, shows trump down in four must-win states that he carried in 2016. in florida trump is down by 9 points. in north carolina and georgia trump is down by 2 points. in texas, texas trump is down by 1 point behind joe biden. yes, you heard me correctly, texas. and trump is reacting by resorting to his tried -- tired and failed playbook by asking the supreme court of course to wyche out the affordable care act jeopardizing the health care of 20 million americans in the middle of a pandemic.

st strategery. thank you for being here, john. great to meet you. let's go through "the new york times"/cnn poll. they did a series of polls, we'll put them up on the screen. biden up 47/36 over trump in michigan which trump managed to win in 2016. in wisconsin where trump very narrowly won biden is up 49/38. pennsylvania the same story, 50 and 40. no one is ever up in florida. i find that very weird. arizona, biden up by 7. north carolina biden up by 9. polls can be wrong. polls can make you think that somebody's going to lose when they're going to win. that's what happened in 2016, although hillary clinton did win by the margin the polls showed her winning by in the popular vote but in the electoral vote it didn't go that way. when you look at this consistency of the polling in these states and in some

unexpected states, from your point of view as an expert in these matters, is donald trump losing? >> well, i mean, clearly he's losing. look, we're in the middle of a pandemic that is much worse than it needs to be because of his malfeasance at the beginning and throughout the course of it. we're deep in a recession. he has no vision. look at that softball answer that he gave sean hannity and he was going down some sort of insane reminiscent with -- about he and melania driving through washington. i didn't really understand what the hell he was talking about. so, yeah, he's losing, but we have to keep at it, because as you said, these things can change. i think the mainstream media is waiting to ride a trump comeback story, so if the polls close just a few points -- >> yeah. >> -- you can imagine the headlines about does he have his footing back, et cetera, et cetera. so we just have to keep at it and keep him on the defensive

throughout. >> oh, yeah. he's one clean prompter read away from getting glowing media headlines. trump is so much more presidential. we know that's how it works. there are certain things that, you know, i worked a little bit in campaign politics. one of the things that was always seen as a red flag was for the incumbent to fall under 40. he's at 36 in the national polls. what he's facing instead of a hillary clinton who's had 40 years of, you know, your party, of the republicans building a case against her for two decades, he's facing joe biden who's just a very regular, moderate, you know, non-threatening older white guy. i think maybe they don't know what to do about him. here's part of a new ad from the biden campaign. >> the 2020 economic crash. we've been through this before. then vice president joe biden oversaw the 2009 american recovery act. 14 million jobs created.

the auto industry rescued. the longest sustained job growth in american history. with 6 million kept out of poverty and less than 1% waste. he's done it before, he'll do it again. >> that's a very sort of standard, almost like an ad, a ronald regan second running ad. now let me play the hard core. that's you guys's ad, the lincoln project ad. >> we will never forget them nor the last time we saw them. as they slipped earth to touch the face of god. >> those who are lost now, their legacy must be our lives. >> they can hear you and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon. ♪ amazing grace >> i am dispatching thousands and thousands of heavily armed

soldiers. we dominate the streets. >> i won't trap between fear and division. i won't fan the flames of hate. it's time to pick up our heads, remember who we are. this is the united states of america. >> we want joe. >> it gets your heart rate going. adam serwer wrote in the atlantic that it's hard for donald trump to run against another white guy. it's become clear the republican party is struggling to run against an old moderate white guy. with you running ads like that and biden almost coming across like a cross partisan president, what could trump even do about -- against that? >> well, i think you touched on it early on. this is going to be a referendum on donald trump, right? and normally an incumbent will

get about 1 point maybe above whatever his job approval number is, and trump's job approval number now is somewhere between 38 and 41. that's where he's stopping. he's got a 50 very hard negative. he's in this box canyon that he can't get out of. the other thing about joe biden is people see him as a stable leader, and in our ad that we just showed, people are yearning to go back to presidents that know how to conduct themselves in crisis. right now they wake up every day and it's insane ground hog day, every day with this president. they want to get back to just a bit of normalcy. no family, no business small or large, no sports team, no anything could be conducted this way where every day is based on the mood of the person at the top or whether he's tweeting attacking someone or whether his ego needs to be massaged. people are really tired.

>> yeah. i think joe biden could literally run on the tag line, wouldn't you like to sleep at night? that would be all he needed to do. that would be it. thank you very much, don weaver. great to talk to you. your ads are great. coming up, a blockbuster report says russia paid -- this is huge, very important story, russia paid militants, think of this, to kill u.s. troops in afghanistan and donald trump, what has he done about it? nothing. absolutely nothing. those details are straight ahead. ahead. ♪

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we got a stunning reminder last night that when it comes to donald trump all roads lead to russia. "the new york times" reports that, quote, american intelligence officials have conclude that had a russian military intelligence unit secretly offered bounties to taliban linked militants for killing coalition forces in

afghanistan including targeting american troops amid the peace talks to end the long running war there according to officials briefed on the matter. they believed some of those bounties have been collected and that donald trump was briefed back in march but so far has not done a thing, essentially letting the kremlin walk for killing our troops. so we ask again, what is it with donald trump's seating fidelity to russia over america. joining me is charlie savage, washington correspondent for the "new york times" and the author of "power wars, the relentless rise of presidential authority and secrecy." let me read another excerpt from your piece. thank you for being here, charlie. islamic militants are believed to have collected some bounty money, the official said, 20 americans, 20 were killed in combat in afghanistan in 2019 but it's not clear which killings were under suspicion. the trump administration finds

this out in march. has donald trump had any contact with vladimir putin since then that we know of? has he had any contact with the kremlin since then that we know of? >> that's a good question. i think they did have a call at some point but i would want to double check that before anyone takes it to the bank. i would also like to say the meeting we described was in late march but this intelligence actually surfaced earlier in the year than that and it took them a while to have an interagency meeting. this whole response to this apparently solid, at least believed to be solid within the u.s. government intelligence finding has been strangely letharg lethargic. took them a while to have a meeting and they've been spinning their wheels about what, if anything, to do about it. >> so meaning that trump may have known about this while he was being impeached, is that the implication? >> so we know that this intelligence surfaced earlier this year, earlier than late

march, than that meeting, and was briefed to trump at some point in his daily briefing. it's been going on -- obviously, you're right. there was the impeachment going on and that merged into the crisis of the pandemic and so there's been a lot of distraction to happen. at the same time though, the u.s. government is full of lots of people and they had this menu of options drawn up for them which started with send a diplomat to his counterpart in moscow to say, hey, we know you're doing this and knock it off, at a minimum, and then an escalating series of response options were drawn up with that, which included things like sanctions, but none of them have been authorized, not even as we understand it a diplomatic protest. >> and i'm told by my experts here that donald trump did have a call on june 1st with vladimir putin to talk about the g-7. he would like to make that the g-8. he would like to invite vladimir

putin to come into the g-8. that doesn't seem to have changed. do we know whether or not the senate intelligence committee or house intelligence committee had this information or had access to it? >> we think this was extraordinarily closely held until this week even though british soldiers were also among those being targeted. the -- we don't think brittain was told until this week. there was -- so there's been only in the last few days a relaxation of the tight controls on this information. we have not heard anything -- we've only gotten a no comment in response to our inquiries to the intelligence communities. when they were told, whether it was earlier, whether they learned it from us is not clear. >> right. this is extraordinary information. this is great reporting, charlie savage. thank you very much. really appreciate you taking some time on this with us this morning. thank you. and we're going to do a lot more on this for our audience tomorrow. thank you, sir. appreciate it.

coming up, mike pence did not misspeak, he didn't make a mistake, he didn't make a miss truth. this man flat out lied about a pandemic that has killed more than 125,000 americans. that's next. that's next. her chill. and now she has those same scents. in the laundry room. ahh... new gain with essential oils detergent. because the tempur-breeze° transfers heat away from your body. so you feel cool... night after night. during the tempur-pedic summer of sleep, save $500 on all tempur-breeze mattresses. and still going for my best. even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib... ...not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm reaching for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin.

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we've succeeded and i think that people just don't want to recognize it because you've got a lot of people in your profession who wax poetically for weeks and weeks about how florida was going to be just

like new york. wait two weeks, florida's going to be next. just like italy, wait two weeks. well, hell, we're eight weeks away from that and it hasn't happened. >> multiple state governors who chose to be obedient to donald trump rather than to the science are now scrambling to reverse course. take florida, which had its record highest day of new cases on friday. nearly 9,000 cases reported in just 24 hours. florida governor ron desantis lagged behind other states in imposing lockdown measures and was one of the first to begin reopening but it's not just florida. four other states hit new records on friday. georgia, idaho, tennessee, utah. big states like texas and california have seen a troubling rise in cases despite very different leadership styles in those states. the country overall also hit a new record with more than 40,000 cases reported. on friday alone. 11 states are now pausing or flat out reversing their plans to reopen.

joining me now is dr. howard ko, former assistant secretary of health in the obama administration. nicki fried and democratic pollster 49er nand amani. dr. ko, let me go to you first. what explains this sudden spike in states like florida and texas and even california? >> well, joy, we're very disturbed to see five months into this pandemic these record-breaking trends. we should be on the other side of the pandemic now. instead in places like florida we see numbers that are 500. >> >> wearing masks.

they're carrying it out. these have to be resolved now before the fall comes and we face a possible second wave and the flu season coming on as a threat as well. >> i think the idea that warm weather was going to solve it is not true because we are in warm weather and look what's happening. commissioner fried, i want to let you critique your governor's performance. you saw the ad that he's boasting everything is going to be final. don't say we're going to be like new york. here we are now, 122,960 confirmed cases in florida. 3,366 deaths. florida counties fighting coronavirus surged by closing beaches, mailing out masks. you see a lot of closings now in south florida. then there's a chart showing the

trajectory of florida cases from march until june 26th. it's just up, up, up, up, up. what -- critique the governor's performance for us, if you might? >> i was critical of the governor from day one. i called on this day three weeks before he put it into place and was hopeful. he put out a very methodical, data driven policy on reopening but unfortunately that's not what happened here in the state. very arbitrary on opening up bars, capacity for restaurants, gyms, fitness centers, so what happened is we let down our guard. we saw the governor and the president put their heads in the sand. people thought that the mission was accomplished and they let down their security guard. now we're seeing huge spikes throughout the entire state and really the governor's leadership has been emptier than really president trump's rally in tulsa. so what we need to be doing now is taking these measured approaches. i called on a statewide mass

coordinate and they've refused to do it. no enforcement even when we were opening up businesses. businesses were going to 100% capacity. everybody thought this was behind us so people really weren't taking responsibility of their own. businesses were not following regulations and the governor was moving on and putting his head back into the sand thinking let's hide the ball, let's look at something else and forget that covid ever existed. >> you know, fernand, ron desantis as always was following the lead of the trump administration. he does whatever they say, whatever they do. and i want to let you listen to mike pence who the coronavirus task force finally rehe meremerd here he is talking about how well he thinks they have done. >> you sound like you're saying do as we say not as we do. you're telling people to listen to local officials but in tulsa you defied local officials.

to have an event that didn't result in a spike, dozens of secret service agents and staffers are guaranteed. in arizona, you packed a church with young people who weren't wearing masks. how can you say that the campaign is not part of the problem that dr. fauci laid out? >> well, i want to remind you again that freedom of speech and the right to peacefully assemble is enshrined in the constitution of the united states and even in a health crisis the american people don't forfeit our constitutional rights. >> fernand, with that kind of leadership, you know, and governor desantis in lock step with that, are you surprised that florida is where florida is? >> not at all, joy. by the time this is all said and done, governor ron desantis is going to have to change his name to governor ron disastrous. it's been dissaastrous and leth

management. the problem is this is a problem not just limited to florida. there is a pattern here, and it seems to be that every state that is led by republican governors, whether it's here in florida under governor disastrous, in arizona, under governor ducey, in texas under governor abbott, they've taken not only the wrong steps. it seems to be deliberately so and an antithesis run by democratic governors where they've successfully been able to bend the curve. one other elements that is clearly on display here is you have in this trump republican party a party that is clearly incapable of govern iing or, worse, unwilling or has no interest in governing. this is a party and a government that is only interested in the maintenance of power.

their policy is to gaslight. creating the sunshine law. has prevented people from knowing decisions being made. without any announcement whatsoever, formal indication of steps, they've closed bars, employees are now going to have to be out of work again. you're looking at catastrophic closing of businesses for unwillingness to admit a mistake and how this was done about. and as dr. ko said earlier, criminal negligence in not calling for a state-wide order for publicly wearing masks. it's just a sign of what's to come. that's why this november, joy, it's not just democracy that's on the ballot. it's our very lives given what we've seen over these last 3 1/2 months. >> dr. ko, we have indications that, according to the cdc, this

is donald trump's cdc. cases of the in the u.s. may be 10 times higher than reported. we may not know the full extent of how bad this is. let me have you listen to dr. anthony fauci, the one trusted person that everyone agrees with can be trusted on this resurgence of cases. this is what he said on friday. >> i don't think there's time enough now all day to try to analyze and figure out the multifaceted elements that went into that, everything from maybe opening a little to actually trying to follow the steps in an orderly fashion. but the citizenry said they would not do that for a number of reasons likely because everyone feels the common feeling of being pent up for such a long period of time. >> right. and to that very point here is a florida resident.

this was in palm beach, testifying that she doesn't want to wear a mask. you hear the science and this is some of the reaction. >> i don't wear a mask for the same reason i don't wear underwear. things got to breathe. >> i'm not sure we all needed that information, but dr. ko, the point being has ideology now jeopardized american public health when it comes to covid. >> secretary for health. every american should listen to him carefully every day. i'm glad the white house had their first briefing in two months yesterday. every day health experts like dr. fauci taking the lead. and then this is a time where everybody can make a contribution. prevention is so important. everyone has lost a loved one when they knew that death could have been prevented. we don't want that situation right now. if you practice good hand hygiene, social distancing, wear

a mask and talk about the basics of prevention and public health with your friends and family and people you love, we can get to the other side. here is a situation, a pandemic, joy, where we don't have a cure. we don't have a vaccine. public health is what we've got and we've got to double down on it. >> we have nearly a third of the cases on earth in the united states. it's not a way we really want to be leading. dr. howard koh, nicki, thank you so much. stay safe. more on the rule of law. more "am joy" after the break. . check balances, pay bills, and more. explore all you can do with our digital tools from almost anywhere. pnc bank.

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i am here because i believe william barr poses the greatest threat to our rule of law and public trust in it. he does not believe in its core principle, that no person is above the law. instead, since taking office, he has worked to advance his lifelong that the president should hold immunity from nearly all checks and balances and accord special treatment to himself and his friends. >> welcome back to "am joy." for anyone still on the fence over whether attorney general william barr is, indeed, the cover-up general, this week provided damning testimony that our nation's ag is sakting more like the hand of the king. trump and barr fired geoffrey

berman, a prosecutor in new york, leading key investigations into trump's allies. barr is not serving as the nation's attorney general but instead serves only the whims of his president. interference in law enforcement to serve his own beliefs, and trump's, in the presidency as kind of an american monarchy is exactly what two career officials addressed under oath this week, along with former deputy attorney general donald ayre. we also heard from a prosecutor who withdrew from roger stone's case. >> he received breaks that are, in my experience, unheard of. and what i heard, repeatedly, was that this leniency was happening because of stone's relationship to the president. >> and then on friday, new reporting on just how quickly barr allegedly began interfering in cases that impacted trump and

his loyalists shortly after barr was sworn in. per "the new york times," barr spent weeks in the spring of 2019 questioning prosecutors over their decision to charge michael cohen with campaign finance laws. the person who prosecuted cohen? geoff berman, the man barr fired last week. it's an assault on our nation's judicial system and justice system. according to barr in an interview on thursday, it's all just business as usual. >> how do you answer a voter who sees a pattern here of continually upholding the personal interests of the president? >> i would say that there is no such pattern. >> well, that clears that up. thanks a lot, mr. barr. joining me now is congresswoman madeline dean of pennsylvania. she is a democratic member of the judiciary and financial services committees, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, paul butler, msnbc legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, and

u.s. attorney barbara quaid. congresswoman, what do you make of william barr's very succinct description of his behavior? >> it doesn't hold any water. we have seen from the moment he auditioned for the position of attorney general that he was auditioning for one, the president. and sadly in every action he has taken, he has used his office and the mighty power of the attorney general to be a political arm, a fixer, if you will, for the president. i have the privilege of being in both the hearings with mr. zelinsky, mr. ayres, mr. elias. but interesting s.e.c. chairman clayton in front of financial services. what you see is attorney general barr not acting independently, not acting as an attorney. he misrepresents before the american people chronically on behalf of the president and then tries to instill fear in othes s

who won't do so. >> i mean, i guess the question then is what can the public do about it? here is a list of what barr has done that we know of. he put up that fake version of it that made it sound like it exonerated trump. lower recommendations for stone, moved to drop the prosecution of michael flynn, the obama administration spied on the trump campaign, which is a lie, tried to remove prosecutor berman. i wonder, congresswoman, if you feel it is at this point still impossible to impeach him. that is a sanction that is available to congress under law. and i mean impeach barr. >> in my mind -- i understand that. in plain sight, attorney general barr has done, over and over, impeachable acts. in terms of process and whether we will go there, i don't know. but he is scheduled to come before us july 28th. recognize this is the first

attorney general not to come before congress, chronically not to come before congress. i want to add to that terrible list that you just showed, which debuted with his four-page misrepresentation of the mueller report, which he allowed to stand out there for one month, saying no collusion, no obstruction, none of that was true. that was misrepresentation, teed us off to the misrepresentation that he would go to. powerfully and dangerously now is what he is doing to undermine our upcoming election with voter suppression, with tear gassing peaceful protesters. think of what he's doing in terms of undermining the confidence of our elections, for example, with mail-in ballots which, by the way, the president took advantage of in the primary election. he's signaling special treatment. when you say we'll make sure we get charges dismissed against you, michael flynn, when the very thing he was being investigated and he pled guilty

to had to deal with the interference in our elections in 2016. he is a master of disinformation. i want to say as an attorney, i practiced as an attorney. i'm a recovering attorney now. the thing that you are taught is that you are a servant of the court. you're not the servant of the president. and a misrepresentation before the court, which in this case is the court of public opinion, is something you must immediately correct, in word after word, after deed, this attorney general misrepresents facts and the law before the american people on behalf of a president. he's a simple fixer. he has no credibility. he needs to go. >> yeah. i think that there's quite a bit of agreement on that. and to the point you just made, congresswoman, four ways william barr the washington post writes is already subverting the 2020 elections. he is already looking for ways to undermine the election in order to keep the man he clearly

considers to be king in place. let's go to barbara. barbara, you and joyce co-wrote a piece that was in the new york magazine on thursday, talking about the ways in which barr is eroding the rule of law, saying don't let him get away with it. that implies there's something that the public can do to stop him. what can be done to stop him, other than getting rid of donald trump? >> i think the senate has demonstrated their reluctance to impeach william barr or to remove him, even if the house were to impeach him. i think it is the court of public opinion, as the congresswoman said, that could create sufficient pressure that would cause william barr to resign. in 2007 you may recall the attorney general then was alberto gonzalez. it became disclosed that he was behind an effort to remove u.s. attorneys for political reasons, if they weren't sufficiently, quo quote, loyal bushies and were hiring people at the department of justice based on their responses to political activity and affiliations and beliefs.

once that became known publicly, there was public pressure that drove him out of office. what william barr has done is so much worse than that episode, but i think we need to continue to push this narrative, this accurate telling of all of the things that william barr has done in an effort to create sufficient public pressure to force him to resign. >> let's play one more piece of another clip of mr. zelinsky, a prosecutor currently in the maryland u.s. attorney's office. >> the acting district attorney for the district of columbia was receiving hipressuring from the highest levels of the department of justice, and it was based on political considerations and i was told that the acting u.s. attorney was giving stone a break because he was afraid of the president of the united states. >> joyce, you know, i think to a lot of people this activity

sounds a lot like nixon's second attorney general, who ended up going to jail. it's hard to believe that what barr is doing is legal. could he face criminal sanctions for obstruction of justice, interfering in cases? could that happen to him after donald trump is gone? >> so i think congresswoman dean hits the nail on the head when she says barr is acting like the president's fixer. there is certainly more than enough information in the public domain for congress to investigate and engage in oversight. and we don't know what kind of evidence, frankly, that might turn up, joy. so i don't think we can take anything off the table. i don't think right now there's something out there that just cries out for prosecution, but there certainly is a lot of smoke. and, you know, i'm old enough to remember a time when eric holder, in an interview, was asked whether he would continue on as barack obama's attorney general, and he just sort of

equipped off the cuff that he was still the president's wing man. and he took a lot of criticism for that comment. he continues to be criticized for that comment. bill barr has gone so far beyond jokingly aligning himself with the president. he has done nothing but act as the president's fixer at every step along the way to the detriment of the american people. there has to be accountability for that, whether it comes in a political forum or some other forum. >> let's play another piece of testimony. this was mr. ayre attempting to testify. and this is the collusion to the corruption, because the republican party is backing this to the hilt. let's play this, mr. ayre trying to testify. >> barr's own role in the events in lafayette park come quickly to mind. so does his practice of regularly shrouding himself in the regular entrappings of the

rule of law, even as he did he say crates and undermines the institutions that make it possible. >> you know, paul, if the party of the president is colluding, essentially, with the corrupt behavior of the attorney general, it leaves the public very little recourse. and i think that is what is so frustrating and enraging about what barr is doing. it appears that he is getting away with it. >> he's getting away -- at first the problem was only that barr wasn't acting like the representative of the united states, but rather trump's fixer and personal defense attorney. but now, joy, things have gone from bad to worse, because barr is actively undermining the interest of the united states. he's working against the interest of our democracy. remember the mueller report was

about influence of russia in our election, about how russia tried to steal the election. barr is covering up and protecting everyone who is implicated in that investigation. again, he's not working for the united states. he's working against the interest of our country. >> let's play a little bit of a reminder because, you know, there were a lot of people who understood what barr was probably going to be. he was called the cover-up general backed by william safire, commentator in the late '80s. he had a back and forth with senator kamala harris when he came in. this is may of 2019. i want you to refresh your memory by listening to this. >> has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone? yes or no, please, sir. >> um, the president or anybody

else? >> seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us. >> they've not asked me to open an investigation, but -- >> perhaps they suggested? >> i don't know. i wouldn't say suggest. >> hinted? >> i don't know. >> inferred? you don't know? okay. >> a battle of synonyms. congresswoman, did he lie to congress, in your view? >> sure. he couldn't be forthright. that's why he stumbled over his words and i think the senator did a fine job of revealing exactly who he is. this is also the attorney general who participated in the removal of five inspectors general, folks who were looking into or holding this administration accountable. simple oversight that is part of the co-equal branches of government. you know, attorney general barr is really a reflection of donald trump, and donald trump is a

reflection of crassness and cruelty, disrespect. representative gomert tapping the table, the disrespect we see on the other side of the aisle as they carry the water of a president who is unworthy of that. we have a president who is undermining the rule of law, is break the law daily with the aid and abetting of an attorney general, and those he has put around him. and think of the time that he's doing this. the attorney general, with the president, is trying to turn down the aca. we're in the midst of a covid pandemic, 125,000 people have lost their lives. and people disinformation and trying to steal health care from people when they're already fearful for their health and their livelihoods, there is a crassness and cruelty. that's why people are in the street. it is about civil rights. it's about humanity. it's about basic decency and the rule of law. and i have optimism in these

very dark days that we will see brighter days ahead. and mr. barr will get his due, and hopefully the president will be roundly turned away this election cycle. >> i'm going to come back to you, congresswoman, in a moment. i want to go really quickly to our attorneys and ask you as a round robin, a rapid fire, is what we saw from william barr when questioned by kamala harris perjury or contempt of congress, in your view? i'll start with you, barbara. >> well, we have to know the facts. it's very difficult to prove perjury. you have to prove that he then and there knew what he was saying was false. with further investigation, a case could be made. >> joyce? >> i agree with barb. this turns on what conversations barr had with people inside of the white house or perhaps with people at doj on this same timeline. if he, in any way, had the suggestion planted that he

should open investigations, and we know that he did, by the way, in his early days as attorney general. he began to revisit all of these key steps in the mueller report investigations. so, if there is evidence that he lied in response to kamala harris, he could open himself up to prosecution. >> and, paul, michael cohen testified that donald trump just -- you know what he wants. he doesn't have to explicitly tell you what to do. there's a mob vibe to the way that he communicates with people what he wants and william barr wrote a memo saying, buddy, i'm going to do what you want. i'm going to give you whatever you need. whatever you need. just hire me. it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to say that the collusion is sort of on the table. he was coming in to go after the president's enemies and to protect the president's friends from going to prison or to lighten their sentences, or to give them a break. it's clear that he thinks that's all his job is. he doesn't do any other job.

the question is, could he then be held accountable for lying to the united states congress, in this case to the senator, to senator kamala harris? >> you know, trump has talked about how he wanted his own personal fixer. trump used to be represented by roy cohn. now he has his own mob lawyer in william barr, who lies about everything. barr lies, like when he mischaracterized the mueller report, and when he claimed that the obama administration was spying on the trump campaign. and he lies about relatively small matters, like when he claimed that the u.s. attorney berman resigned when berman then had to push back and say, no, you fired me. so, i don't think that we should believe anything this attorney general says and that congress, including the senate, has to take that seriously. our attorney is under dgeneral

undermining the rule of law. >> there's a word for that, corrupt? it's corrupt. there is a word for what he's displaying here i want to come back to you congresswoman. we had a breaking news this morning that i want to get your reaction to. "the new york times" is reporting that the kremlin, that the government of russia, was paying bounties for the harming, the killing of u.s. troops in afghanistan, and that some of those bounties may have been collected. we know 20 u.s. troops were killed in 2019, in afghanistan, sbom of them may have resulted in bounties being paid by russia, by the kremlin, to taliban forces. donald trump knew about that. he knew about that, at least in march, but probably earlier than march. he might have known about it while he was being impeached. he has done nothing about it. he has had communications with vladimir putin, at least we know, june 1st, to talk about bringing him back into the g7.

we don't know that he has done anything about it. the likelihood is that he has done nothing. as a member of congress, what do you make of this information? >> i did read some of that breaking late last night and early this morning. it is chilling. it is sickening. and it's shocking, but maybe it shouldn't be. this is how rotten to the core this president is. he doesn't seem to have any compassion or understanding. he doesn't seem to really love this country. he doesn't seem to really understand our constitution. he certainly curries favor with our enemies and disrespects and disregards our allies and our friends. it is sickening. it is chilling that we ask people to serve and they stand up so nobly to serve. and it's possible that russia is doing something in putting

bounties on the heads of our soldiers and this president would do nothing. notice with attorney general barr's help he has done nothing about russian interference in the 2016 election. it's just sickening. >> stays on brand. maybe we should be not so surprised because the president also sides with the part in the civil war, the side of the civil war that was killing union u.s. troops. he sides with that side as well. it is a strange, strange presidency. congresswoman, barbara mcquade, joy vance, paul, thank you for being here. coming up, meet the new aoc. min. needles. essential for sewing, but maybe not for people with certain inflammatory conditions. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz. the first and only pill of its kind that treats moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, or moderate to severe ulcerative colitis when other medicines have not helped enough.

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elliott engel used to say he's in the thorn of the side of donald trump. do you know what donald trump is afraid of more than anything else?

a black man with power. that is what donald trump is afraid of. >> all right then. the progressive movement has a few reasons to celebrate after the democratic primaries in new york and kentucky on tuesday. the race to decide who will go up against mitch mcconnell will not be called until june 30th. kentucky state rep charles booker has a slight edge over the establishment moderate amy mcgrath. poised to become the first openly gay black african-latino men in congress. and jamaal bowman is being dubbed the new aoc after his lead appears insurmountable over elliott engel, former middle school principal from the bronx. his candidacy was buoyed by appearances at black lives matter protests and endorsements by bernie sanders and elizabeth

warren. joining me now is jamaal bowman. thank you so much for being here. >> of course. thank you so much for having me. >> i feel like if this all goes your way, you should still make everyone call you principal bowman and just walk around congress, and you're principal bowman and you can start to wreck shop around there, get those people in order. i want to read a tweet and an nbc news article. the nypd has a long history. you wrote this on election night. i'm a black man raised by a single mother in a housing project. that story doesn't usually end in congress. today that 11-year-old boy, beaten by police, is about to be your representative. i can't wait to get to d.c. and cause problems for those maintaining the status quo. and nbc wrote a piece in march of 2020 about stop and frisk, saying new york police under michael bloomberg scarred me and my family.

if you get to congress, and it looks like it's very likely going to be your new job, what do you think that you can change about the way that people are policed, people like you, people like me, people like our families? >> you know, i think i can bring personal stories, personal experiences, not just from me, but from the students and families i served throughout my 20-year career. you know, unfortunately, if you're black or latino in this country, police brutality and police harassment is a way of life. i was beaten by police as an 11-year-old boy for simply horse playing with my friends and giving a little backtalk. that led to me being thrown up against the wall, thrown to the ground, night stick to the back, my face dragged across the floor. my mother and i didn't feel like we had any recourse. we felt powerless in that context. i can't tell you the number of students and family members that i've taught throughout my career that consistently have these kind of interactions with police

departments. so, it's those stories that i will bring to congress as well as policy, like ending qualified immunity, ending the transfer of military equipment from the federal government to local police departments, increasing accountability and transparency, and reallocating resources toward public health. i mean, right now, police departments are greatly overfunded when you look in comparison to public health resources. that's something we have to focus on as well. >> so, what do you make of -- there are a lot of democrats. there's a lot of bad wedding -- maybe that's mean to say. there's been bed wetting about the police as a hash tag. people are uncomfortable with it as a hash tag. what do you think of it as that movement? >> only 5% of police arrests are for murder, aggravated assault and rape, which are, you know, public health crises that we have to deal with more aggressively. 95% of arrests are related to

issues where if we invested more resources in public health, those issues would go away. i mean, we have communities that are overoccupied by police that are dealing with food insecurity, housing insecurity, underfunded schools, environmental racism, lack of jobs and job training programs. so, let's invest in communities that have been historically neglected in the area of public health as opposed to continuing to fund the police and our military at disproportionate levels. >> and let's talk about who you went up against. you ran, and those who supported mr. engel, the opponent, your incumbent, andrew cuomo, the governor, senate minority leader chuck schumer. they all backed your opponent. you were backed by congresswoman alexandra ocasio-cortez, bernie sanders, and elizabeth warren. you're being compared very much to aoc.

they'll have to shorten your name and make you into a hash tag as well. do you think it's important to have more regular folks be in congress? you're a former middle school principal. she has waited tables and has had those life experiences, meaning you're not wealthy. do you think that that's part of the challenge of getting good representation that so many folks in congress are wealthy and don't necessarily know what it's like to sort of live life as a regular person? >> absolutely. we need more working class people in congress. 50% of congress are millionaires. big money in politics is a huge problem right now. and that's why congress has been compromised by the wealthy elite and large corporations. both aoc and i, not only did we work regular jobs and were working class people, but we were both organizationsers. we work with grass root organizations and organize around issues of education, housing, health care and many other issues and, you know, more important than even the endorsements i received

throughout this campaign are -- was my connection to the people. you know, the people endorsed us, and we made sure to build authentic, deep relationships with the people throughout the district, but particularly those who have been historically ignored by congressman engel and the political establishment. >> yeah. and we're out of time but i have to ask you, what have you heard from your former students, really quick? >> we love you, mr. bowman! congratulations! thank you, mr. bowman! that's what we've heard. >> i love it. i love it. go there and shake things up, jamaal bowman. thank you very much. you've done good. congratulations. >> thank you. >> all right. appreciate you being here. coming up, noted economics expert paul krugman will tell us when he thinks the american economy will get back on its feet. you're going to want to stay for that. feet you're going to want to stay for that

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ruled yesterday that children held in detention centers must be released by july 15th. some have already tested positive for the virus, including 11 immigrants inside a detention facility for families in texas. and in another story that we're watching, the mississippi state legislature could vote today to remove the confederate battle emblem from the state's flag. democratic lawmakers say they have the votes to overcome republican option. mississippi is the last state in the country whose flag features the confederate symbol. coming up, how donald trump is putting the economy ahead of people's lives. le's lives introducing ore-ida potato pay. where ore-ida golden crinkles are your crispy currency to pay for bites of this... ...with this. when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to. ore-ida. win at mealtime.

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we're going to have hot spots. there's no question. we just have to live with that. but the economy is not going to be closed down again. there may be certain places where there is. that's up to the local authorities. >> so, despite a staggering rise in covid-19 cases in more than 30 states, it seems the trump administration's biggest priority is keeping the economy open. the surge in cases has gone hand-in-hand with an economic downturn. nearly 1.5 million americans filed for unemployment in the last week. as the economy takes a major

step backwards in the fight against the covid-19 pandemic, multiple states are forced to roll back plans to reopen, how can the economy even hope to recover? joining me now is paul krugman, nobel prize winning economist and author of "arguing with zombies." great to talk with you, sir. let's start with the situation we have right now. there's a poll on reopening in the state of new york. there's a "new york times"/siena poll. 34% in this "new york times" poll says restart the economy even if it increases the risk to public health. it's about the same share of people who are for donald trump and against him, quite frank ly. is it even possible to restart the economy, if we don't do the former, if we don't contain the virus? >> the answer is, it's not. it's a false choice. and we're actually seeing that in real time right now.

you look at texas. we can look at things like restaurant reservations, an early indicator of what's going on. texas did early reopening for a little while. they started to go to restaurants, moved ahead of the rest of the country. it has now plunged back to below the rest of the country because even if the government says it's okay to go out, if everyone is hearing there's a rampant pandemic, they don't go out. this has been a false choice all along. and we're now seeing and aborted the attempt to reopen the economy with some governors. some credit to i didn't think the governor abbott in texas would actually admit he made a mistake. premature opening ends up hurting the economy because people will not continue -- will not do business as usual if they know they're going to be at risk of dying if they continue to do so. >> you've seen these spikes of activity that happens when they do the reopening but then

recede. market watch reports, consumer spend i spending jumped 8.2% in may. we're starting to see people reopen their states. that then goes away. you had the treasury send out more than a million -- you send out $500 million, let's say, in stimulus payments. in some cases they sent it to people who are already dead $1.4 billion of that went to people who are dead. >> that's a -- you know, yeah, if you send out a lot of money in a hurry, which we needed to do, some of it will go to dead people. by and large, dead people don't cash checks. that's a fake problem. of all the things to worry about, that's not one of them. but no, look, the fact of the matter is what we did -- sorry. what i was going to say is we had to shut down a large part of the economy. we kept the rest of it going with these payments supporting incomes, and the big problem we're looking at now is that we're going to have to keep a lot of the economy shut down because the coronavirus is still

out there. some of the things that are opened are going to be reshut. but the government support, a lot of it comes to an end about a month from now and that's going to be a real problem. >> yeah. so, this is the question. what should -- if we had a rational government at the federal level right now, what should they be doing? in europe a lot of what they're saying is we'll just send checks. will it make more sense for treasury to cut every, you know, american family a check for $2,400 a month and keep doing that until the virus is receded? >> well, the trouble is, i mean, the impact of this -- of the pandemic is very uneven. the economic impact is very uneven. if you are employed in a contact intensive activity, if you're working in the restaurant industry or retail trade, then you're very likely unemployed. and you need enough money to actually replace the bulk of the income you lost if you're going

to avoid enormous hardship. if we sent a check that large to everybody, that would be an extraordinary amount of money. from my point of view, you give everybody a $1,200, almost everybody, a $1,200 check. we gave unemployed workers, not just ordinary unemployment compensation, an extra $600 a week and we've been doing that for a couple of months. the unemployment benefits, which are selective. you have to have lost your job. they don't go to everybody. it's been a much more important factor in alleviating the problem. extraordinary benefits to the unemployed because it's an extraordinary situation. another round of checks to everybody is not going to do a whole lot of harm but is not actually addressing the problem. it's hardship. we need to be dealing with alleviating hardship which also sustains the economy. >> we're coming up on rent day for a lot of people. first of the month sander the corner. there hasn't been a whole lot of focus on that in the federal

sort of activity, but should there be? should there be? not only just individual rent but some of these restaurants that will have to close. folks at restaurants, you still have to pay the rent. >> yeah. >> and individuals as well even worse. >> yeah. so the individuals, it's not clear that rent is -- there's everything. there's rent, there's food. there's just being able to keep your family together. and so the disaster relief for the unemployed is still central there. on the businesses, you know, we did a pretty good job of helping unemployment. it was off to a very shaky start. unemployment benefits are administered by the states and the states weren't ready to handle the load but at this point we're doing -- let's put it this way. on an absolute scale there's still a lot of holes in the system. relative to u.s. norms, we're doing well with the unemployed. not doing nearly as well for the small business. that program was badly designed and the money is not really flowing anymore.

so, businesses, we're going to have carnage amongst small businesses even with current policies and especially if it looks like the economy will take a step because because we didn't control the coronavirus. >> yeah, absolutely. things are going to get worse, i assume, as well, before they get any better. paul krugman, great to talk with you. thank you so much. we appreciate your time. coming up next, the republican playbook explained. a. in peytonville, there's lots of ways to save on auto insurance. really? yeah. very proud of that. with smartride® from nationwide, they can get discounts for safe driving. does she get one? mrs. carmichael? safest driver in peytonville. takes a lot of work and effort to be the safest driver in peytonville. what about this guy? with nationwide smartmiles®, the less he drives, the less he pays. the list of inspiring stories goes on and on.

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>> ah, memories, coherence, full sentences. the road to the trump error was paved with strict opposition to that gentleman, president barack obama. no matter what logic or precedence be damned, that alone was republicans' unifying policy, opposition to obama. as a result the gop is now a post-policy party according to our next guest, steve benen, author of the new book "the imposters." steve, watching barack obama, it is even more remarkable the amount of demonization that he took. he was treated as if he was the devil himself, and that anything he proposed had to be opposed, even if it was something that republicans were for. you oargue in your book -- oh, e lost steve's audio. lost steve's audio

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we have steve benen back. the i techlt ration to the current g op is indifferent to the substance of governing, it is disdainful. that is a pretty significant statement. >> it is i think i back it up. the allegations true. over the course of the last 10 to 12 years, republicans have

given up on taking governing serio seriously. >> and how much of this is because of obama? because they're so angry that obama even got to govern that they decided forget it we don't even want to govern, we just don't want another one of him. >> two things to keep in mind. first is the fact that obama's success in 2008 kind of shattered republican parties in a way that the party wasn't prepared for. at the end of the bush/cheney error, the party found itself at a crossroads, had been rejected by voters, foreign policy, domestic policy had been thoroughly discredited. at that point the policy had to decide what were its priorities going to be, what kind of policies would they pursue? they decided to give up on the very idea of governing and decide they were going to define themselves by being in opposition to whatever barack obama was for and then we saw for eight years and it paved the way, i think, for donald trump's presidency, which is the

embodiment of all post-policy politics. >> do you get the sense that when donald trump is gone, there will be a reassertion, or reassessment among republicans? they seem to be all in for whatever it is that trump is for now. >> i think you're right. i think that's the real challenge. i think the election outcome will largely dictate how republicans deal with this problem where they're just no longer governing. do they reassess, take stock and realize that voters are expecting more or do they kind of decide that trump's way is the only way? i'm unsure what they'll do. i think the election will be an opportunity for them. >> we shall see. steve benen, thank you so much. apologies for the audio problems. good luck with the book, "the imposters." that's our show for the day. we'll see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m., same time, same channel. stay tuned for my friend, alex witt. tuned for my friend, alex witt

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