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fourth. i'm ali velshi. the president is using this annual celebration of its independence as an opportunity do what he does best, divide rather than unify. >> our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history defame our heroes, erase our values and indoctrinate our children. [ booing ]. >> trump railed against culture last night as the can unmovount away from the idea of yesteryear, one of white men in charge. he says kids are being taught to hate america. >> in our schools, our news rooms, even our corporate board rooms, there is a new far left fascism that demands absolute

allegiance if you do not speak its language, perform its rituals, recite its mantras, and follow its commandments, then you will be censored, banished, blacklisted, persecuted, and punished. >> the speech was hardly uplifting. trump declined to talk about the most important issue at hand, which is not a few statues of men being pulled down, it's a deadly pandemic that's killed more than 200,000 americans and shows know signs of slowing down. the white house is telling us to, quote, live with it even as his own inner circle is affected the kimberly gill foil is tis t test positive. and like in tulsa, we saw no one wearing a mask at the mount rushmore event last night, even though people were tightly packed together on a warm and humid night. trump's decision to hold the

speech alt mount rushmore has a lot more significance than most roolss realize. last night's event was the biggest celebration at mount rushmore in a decade. back in 2010, the annual fireworks display was canceled due to a threat to public safety in the park's irreplaceable resource. fear was fire along with issue over the land. the issue with the sioux nation says trump doesn't have permission to enter the land. it was sued by the united states in violation of its own treaty with the sioux nation. we saw protest last night against trump's visit to land. i'm joined by cal perry who is in keystone where the protests happened last night it the tell me about them. >> reporter: it was interesting because what we saw in the last few months when we saw these protests against police broou brutality was oftentimes police brutality. yesterday what we saw i thought was a measured response from the south dakota authorities. it was fairly organize ld and

people were making this point that this is their land, me mem of the sioux land sitting in the road. that didn't stop the president from weigheding into the controversy talking about andrew jackson as a great president. that is something that natie americans will take issue with. this is a president who saw the ethic cleansing of the native americans in the 1830s, '40s, and '50s from the was this bizarre moment in the speech where we heard about possibly a new national attraction, a new moment monument. take a listen. >> i am announcing the creation of a new monument to the giants of our past. i am signing an executive order to establish the national guard of american heroes. a vast outdoor park that will

feature the statues of the greatest americans to ever live. [ cheers and applause ] >> reporter: so there you have possibility of more statues even though the country's going through this moment of national reckoning when we're talking about taking down many statues. it was very much like tulsa, ali, in the way that he just waded into the controversy, clearly in tune with the cable news. this seemed like a reverse straw man where he doesn't reverse, as you said, the coronavirus, instead, choosing to wade into these very sort of strange almost talk radio social issues, ali. >> thank you for your strong coverage last night and for getting up so early for us this morning. cal perry keystone, south dakota. >> let us also send our deepest thanks to our wonderful veterans, law enforcement, first

responders, and the doctors, nurses, scientists working tirelessly to kill the virus. they're working hard. i want to thank them very, very much. >> all right. while cases are skyrocketing around the country, many americans are focused on july fourth holiday. despite being told by this administration the country would be, quote, really rocking again by july, it seems like every day a new record for more cases is being set. what's being done to slow the spread of covid on a national level? not a whole lot. the white house is getting ready to advise everyone to live with it. which is what they told me yesterday before they broke that story. >> as these cases do accelerate, as you point out, we also have to think our strategy about therapeutic. the disagreement we're having right now is how fast we can open the economy.

and what we learned from the initial lockdown is that that's going to kill probably more people locking them down through alcoholism, depression, and the kind of economic fallout that we get than opening up. >> joining me now, a trauma surgeon, professor of surgery at u.c. san francisco school of medicine as well as vice chair of diversity, equity and inclusion. good to see you again. i want you to help me address this, because the white house, instead of following a set of protocols laid out by public health professionals, a set of protocols that has worked in other countries that are like america is going on with this idea that we should learn to live with this thing, peter navarro was talking about hydroxychloroquine again citing some nonrandomized, nondouble blind study from a hospital in detroit. for some reason they just refuse to do the stuff that we've seen work everywhere else in the world.

>> well, first of all, ali, thank you so much for having me on again. and we are in the midst of a pandemic. and what's going on, what is being said by a public official, at least in washington, is not correct. this is a serious problem, it's killing a lot of people, there's 130,000 people who have died from this. there are 2.7 million people who have had it, and it's going to get worse. and you can see from the southeast and west that it is getting worse. numbers are going up. so affecting disproportionately the african american, native american, and late continin x c. and the comments that were made before this came on were absolutely incorrect and we should listen to the experts and as not someone who is -- does not have expertise in this area. >> yeah. but that's the problem, right? i mean, we don't -- i don't really understand where we lost

track of this, where we got off track and we politicized the listening to experts on this. but one of the problems we've got is that because the white house is out there saying things like it's not that bad, the president says it's going disappear, you know, we're going to have to learn to live with it, it does have an affect on lay people who do not have access to people like you or public health officials and they start to take this less seriously. that's what we've seen around the country. the combination of wanting to get out of your home, which is understandable, wanting to gaen ra generate ann come and combined with this is not all that serious gives us the results we're seeing. >> this is the problem, because what shahappens is we depend on people who in leadership position to exert leadership. so we're not having this kind of thing happening. what we have to do is we have to sort of say we know what works, right? this is a novel virus that we have never seen before. and because of that, people are

being affected. the things that we talked about, the social distancing, hand washing, making sure that you wear a mask. i mean, wearing a mask is not a political statement. wearing a mask means that i care for you, you care for me, and that we want to move forward and be successful in navigating this once in 100-year episode that's going on right now. we're worried in california that we are beginning to spike. our model and we're not now. so we're worried about that. >> yeah, california is one of the states tao to worry about and interestingly enough, california was dealing with the first round of this thing when new york was, massachusetts, when the northeast states were. and people weren't really taking seriously that in those places, certainly in new york, we were reaching capacity in the number of people who could be admitted to icu. you're a trauma surgeon. one thing we're seeing in arizona and houston is that other people who would otherwise go into an emergency room face danger of not having icu beds

available because those beds are being taken up by people who have coronavirus. >> that's absolutely correct. what we have to do when we were gearing up, when the epidemic first happened, we had to decrease the amount of elective surgery. so that means that people who have illnesses that need to be treated with surgery, we had to put it on hold because we were not able, in fact, to give them care. the other thing that's happening is other emergencies had to be put to the side because we were dealing with people who have serious emergencies. and certainly my friends who are in new york, it was really major league issue in terms of not being able to provide regularly scheduled care because they are caring for people who were critically ill and dying from this novel coronavirus. >> doctor campbell, just a little while ago i had dr. andre perry on. i like to have doctors together, but he was talking about the

unbalanced effect of this pandemic on african americans in terms of wealth, income, and unemployment rates. but the rate at which they are dying at a higher level is tied to that. the health outcomes of african americans in this pandemic are entirely tied to the wealth and economic outcomes for african americans. >> that's very true. i'm sorry that i missed the other dr. this morning. but i wanted to say this, is that the thing that we're worried about is, in fact, 23% of the people who have been affected by this, who have died from this virus are african american. and that's -- african americans are 12% of the population, 23% to 24% of the people who have died from this epidemic are african americans. this is a serious problem. and there are many factors that go into this. it's access, it's social determine ne

determinance of care, other things that go along with this. but even in affluent african american communities like prince gorgeous county, the amount of people who affected who died from it are higher so that there may be access, there may be socioeconomic issues, but why is it? is it access to care? implicit bias? we're not certain in medicine that we should be doing a better job. and certainly when people come to us we do as best as we can. but we need to be thinking about how we can provide better care for these segments of the population, african americans, native americans, and late continuelatin x portions of the population. >> thank you, sir, as always. dr. andre campbell as a professor of surgery and the vice chair for diversity equity and inclusion as uc san francisco. was it a littler ral lapse

in judgment? what the president knew and when he knew it next on velshi. w ann he knew it next on velshi. ♪ ♪all strength ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat and get way more.ith wso you can bring yours vision to life and save in more ways than one.

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said to contain no new information and it's timing said it was to bolster the trump administration's attempts to justify its inaction, unquote. it's been a bit more than a week since they broke this story. nbc news then learned intelligence about those reported bounties on u.s. and coalition troops in afghanistan have been circulating since last year. "the new york times" uncovered that american officials intercepted date that head to financial transfers from a russian military agency to a taliban linked account further supporting the original reporting. times also reported there's an after gab contractor at t afghan at the middle of this. president denied that he new about these bounties both on twitter and in cable news interviews. listen to this. >> we never heard about it because intelligence never found it to be of the -- of that level

where it would rise to that -- when you bring something into in to a president, and i so many, many things and i'm sure i don't see many things that they don't think rose to the occasion. this didn't rise to the occasion. and from what i hear and i hear pretty good, the intelligence people didn't even -- many of them didn't believe it happened at all. i think it's a hoax. i think it's a hoax by the newspapers and the democrats. >> nbc news is reporting that information about the russian bounties was include the in the president's written intelligence briefing, but as we all know, he didn't usually read his material. so if the lead briefer from the cia didn't tell him, it's possible the president didn't know about it. parents of a number of service members killed are calling for a thorough investigation into what whether their respective son's death were a result of this. joining me now is tom malinowski of jersey. he served as senior director as bill clinton's national security

council and the former director of preparedness and response at the department of justice, she's currently the mapping director for national security and international policy at the center for american progress. good morning to both of you and happy independence day. congressman, let me start with you. the nobody told me defense, donald trump's tweets are full of it. he said publicly i'm a business reporter and we know that not only do ceos get away with that, but it's illegal. but that's what donald trump does, it sort of allows us to miss the point on what's the failure here? is it an intelligence failure? is it a beefing failure? or is it a president trump failure? >> it's a policy failure is what it is. i mean, first of all, this whole question of was he briefed or not is silly. he was briefed. the intelligence community put it in the president's daily briefing. the standard for including something in the pdb is when the intelligence community thinks

it's important enoughtor the presidefor the president to know about it. if he doesn't read that, that's on him. the real question is what did the administration do with this information to protect our troops in afghanistan? i've read the intelligence. i can't tell you what's in it, but i can tell you base and who i've read, every normal administration would have acted, would have at the very least delivered a message to russia that helping the taliban while it was killing our troops and afghan civilians is totally unacceptable. so what did they do with this information? not just trump, but his national security adviser, his secretary of state, his secretary of defense, all of whom knew about this. that's what we're going to find out in the congress. >> katrina, i want to play something that former national security adviser john bolton said about the president's response to these -- the allegations of these bounties. let's listening to. >> the president has trouble owning decisions. so, when a decision gets made

that doesn't go quite the way people hope, suddenly it wasn't his decision. so when this information about russia arises, it's hard for me to believe that somebody didn't tell him about it. and the fact that there might have been disagreement in the intelligence agencies, that happens all the time. so i'm -- i'm confused by the white house's confusion over this. i don't think they have a grip on what actually is going on. >> katrina, i think i've generally grow a full head of hair before i agree with john bolton on something. but he said the disagreement between intelligence agencies happens all the time. that's something that we've heard from a lot of people. things go into the president's daily briefing in which it's noted that one of the agencies dissents in their view of this or doesn't think it's enough. but there's enough there there for the president to know about it. he doesn't even seem to acknowledge that in this case. >> you're absolutely right. the intelligence communities' job is not to eliminate

uncertainty, it's to document uncertainty. they routinely identify areas of agreement and disagreement and they lay those out for policymakers. it is then up to the policymakers, in this case the president and national security adviser, to decide what they're going to do about it. that's their job. so i completely agree with congressman muleno congressman malinowski. the against community did everything it was supposed to do. >> congressman, "the washington post" has a headline that i think says it all. sometimes the headline tells you the story. it says the only people dismissing the russia bounties intel, the taliban, russia, trump. this administration has done a remarkable job of politicizing everything, including the wearing of masks, but i don't understand how this gets politicized. there's no administration that wouldn't be pro our troops in the field, whether or not you agree with why they're there. how does this happen that the russians, taliban and trump are

denying this and yet we continue to get information that it probably happened? >> i don't know if i can answer that question. but that's what's happening. we seem to have a president who cares more about protecting his reputation than about protecting our troops in the field. and we seem to have a national security apparatus, a secretary of state, defense, national security adviser who are scared to tell the president anything that he doesn't want to hear, anything that doesn't feed his grievances and his prejudices. and that's not a government that's doing its job to protect us. and we have to make sure that that changes. our role in congress will be to get to the bottom of this and to make sure to the best of our ability that we are holding russia accountable. >> and, katrina, in fact, the president has not succeeded in making this a partisan issue in congress. congress seems to take seriously

the idea this is happening. do you think anything will happen as a result of the revelations that we've seen? >> gosh, i want to say yes. i want to say yes because as an american it's the right answer. something should happen, the troops should be protected, the president should be taking action. i mean, this is -- this is extremely serious. and the fact that the president is trying to play some sort of game of, you know, did somebody tell me or didn't they tell me when lives are at stake is -- it doesn't signal that he's taking this seriously. this is his first obligation as the president of the united states, as commander and chief. and, you know, i'm baffled as to why they aren't -- they aren't taking action. >> congressman, i want to ask you before you go but hong kong. you and representative adam have introduced the people's freedom and choice act which is a bipartisan piece of legislation to protect hong kongers who are

facing persecution and pro prosecutions from china. what do we make of what's happening in hong kong and what should america be doing about it? >> number one, what's happening in hong kong is that the chinese government is trying to crush the freedom of this wonderful, prosper rus prosperous and relatively ipt city. it should matter to us not just because we care about freedom, but because this new law, the national security law that they're imposing on hong kong is supposed to apply everybody to in the world who may criticize the chinese government. it's aimed at chinese americans. it's aimed at american business people doing business there. in fact, technically, it applies to you and me talking about it right now. so we have do something. the bill that we've introduced, totally bipartisan in the united states congress, says to the chinese government that if you suffocate hong kong, if you crush freedom in hong kong, the united states is going to take a

lot of people from hong kong and open our doors to them. business owners, entrepreneurs, scientists, academics. we are saying to beijing, if you crush this place, you will lose its best and brightest. you will lose its wealth and talent to the united states. we're trying to deter repression in that way. >> congressman, thanks for joining me. he served as assistant secretary of state for democracy, human rights and labor in the obama administration. katrina is the director for national security. thanks to both of you for being here. coming up, sur, end white people, that's the message from d.l. hughley who in his new book uses insight and humor to hold america account possible for its past wrongdoing. stay with us. for its past wrongdoing. stay with us. fine, no one leaves the table until your finished.

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protesters have erupted

across the country with millions taking to the streets demanding a long overdue reckoning on racial inequality and striving to lend true meaning to one of the founding creeds of this nation that all men are created equal. according to polls, somewhere between 15 and 26 million americans protested in more than 4,700 protests that sprung up after the police-involved killing of george floyd making this the largest movement in the history of the united states. indicating a huge shift in public opinion and presenting the country with real tangible opportunities transform the america that we know today. 18 months ago, way before the killings of rayshard brooks, george floyd, breonna taylor, ahmauder bury, d.l. hughley began writing his book. surrender white people. in the first few pages he writes, quote, how are we supposed to deal with charlottesville if we don't know the same history?

how we are supposed to trust the police if we don't acknowledge the continued violence against us as well as centuries of forced subjawgation of white authorities? peace and reconciliation will only happen when white people surrender their unjust privilege and delusions of supremesy. joining me now, radio host and my old friend d.l. hughley. it's great see you. most people don't know that you and i had offices next toe ea e other in the old msnbc days. i know you have come through suffering from coronavirus. are you okay? >> anything to get on your show. i had to do what i had to go to sell this book. but i'm -- i'm doing great. >> that's good. >> i'm off quarantine. >> i appreciate that. >> you make an interesting connection between the fact that slavery ended in 1865 -- this is relevant because it's independence day.

slavery ended in 1865, 90 years after the founding of this country. and it wasn't until 1965 that everywhere in this country would a black person sit next to a white person in this country. >> so they gave us freedom not the fork. think our experience in america is right with these hypocrisies. even if you look as what happened in colorado a couple days ago. police officers were fired for mocking elijah mcleanclain's de but not for killing him. you look what the happened with nascar and baubba watson and th fbi investigator go oh, no, this was from a long time ago. there are things that we accept because even know what's happening today, we all know that we're not all free on the fourth of july, but it's so inconvenient to tell that truth that it's kind of just baked

into the cake. so there are things that we inconveniently accept because no one wants to upset, you know, the narrative. >> but interestingly enough, right after this conversation i'm going to have a conversation with nicole hanna jones and jon meacham talk about the fact that we're not free if one of us are in chains. and something's different from 18 months ago when you started writing this book. there is a -- there is something happening, 25 million people or more taking to the streets. and, by the way, they weren't all black people. people are realizing this concept privilege and that if i have it and you don't, he then i have to give something up for us to be equal. >> that is absolutely true. when i started writing this book the only thing that i didn't anticipate was this kind of resetting of the norm. and i think that if you look at our history, it has always been images of brutality that has made america make these pivots, these shifts. in the '60s it wasn't the protests, it was the violent images. it was people coming up dead in

swamps. it was people being beaten at lunch counters. and now i think because they saw these horrific images of what happened to george floyd and bree onapril tail ar and ahmaud arbery, america was uncomfortable and decided that it was time do something about it. it and i think it's always been the images that we couldn't turn away from that made us make these pivots. >> so one of the things about you and the magic of you is that you're a comedian. like a lot of comedians you're a provoctor and political commentator. what are you expecting by surrender white people? are you hoping white people buy this book and say, awe, through humor and anecdote i will understand my privilege? >> it bible couldn't do it, i don't think i can. but i'll tell you this. what i do hope is that people enjoy and learn something. i think that, you know, i was -- i think what is happening in america tends to april in america is a lot like what's happening with covid.

i was asymptomatic. i wasn't expressing any symptoms. i didn't have any of the classic symptoms. but, yet, that doesn't mean that i couldn't endanger other people and i didn't expose them to something terrible because something terrible didn't happen in my wake. i think you can be asimp mat nick terms of white supremacy and bias. it doesn't mean that you to be an active member and participating but things can happen at your behest and even if it's involuntary. so i think that what i'd like for people to do is to see a semblance of themselves. it is contradictory. we watch what happened to george floyd. people were appalled. they wanted something done. but some of those same people will fight for the images of men who did far worse. derek sabon is a historical man but he's not worse than andrew jacques jackson. donald trump said that black

lives matter was a symbol of terror yet he signed an executive order protecting actual symbols of terror. so i just think that we have to reconcile ourselves with the fact that, like, in school children have a zero -- most schools have a zero tolerance policy towards violence and there are certain things you can't do at your job. why do we allow policemen to murder people and not be brought to account or say things that are racially charged and bias and not be brought to account? you kont do that at your church, our kids can't do it in school but certain people can get away with it. and i don't know how we reconcile that unless we hold everybody to the same standard. it's destructive as a lot of diseases that we have. >> this is a good time for you to pick up more reading on the topic and i'm glad that you've contributed to that. d.l. looug hughlehughley, it's you. i'm glad you're healthy. before we go to a break, an update in a case.

three police officers in colorado have been fired for mocking the dith eath of elijah mcclain. they say they made fun of him. the images were shared waufsers in the department who were directly involved in the mcclain incident. the 23-year-old mcclain seen here was walking home in october when police stopped him, tackled him, applied a chokehold and later gave him a saidtiedative. an ternl investigation found that the police officers had followed protocol. e officers had followed protocol. iternl invest that the police officers had followed protocol. nternl invest that the police officers had followed protocol. ternl investid that the police officers had followed protocol. rternl invest found that the police officers had followed protocol. anternl i found that the police officers had followed protocol. lternl in found that the police officers had followed protocol. investig that the police officers had followed protocol. investigatio that the police officers had followed protocol. investigatio that the police officers had followed protocol. investigatio that the police officers had followed protocol. n investigati that the police officers had l e

in the midst of this national trauma, so many of our fellow americans are rising to the occasion. their words and their deeds serving as a crucial reminder

that in this time of stress and catastrophe, we really are all in this together. catastrophe, l in this together. your high independence only reveals the immercienmesh usual distance between us. the blessings that you rejoice are not enjoyed uncommon. the justice, liberty, prosperity and independence bequeathed by your fathers is shared by you, not by me. the sunlight that brought life and healing to you has brought stripes and death to me. this fourth of july is yours, not mine. you may rejoice, i must mourn. frederick douglas wrote these words on the fourth of july, 1852 just 76 years after u.s. independence from britain. slavery was still going strong. the civil war hadn't started and america wouldn't end slavery for another 21 years legally and 23 years in practice. today, 152 years since the end

of slavery, douglas' words about the rich enhater answinheritanc words are still -- we are in unprecedented times of social upheaval where our longest standing institutions face a moment of reckoning. some see that in the names of symbols and statues as a threat to american tradition and life. i think it's a way to make america nor inclusive. to renew the promises of americans in nao one that all americans can celebrate equally. i shared with you the words none of us are free from in one of us are chained. that continues to come back to me. slavery continued in america almost 90 years after independence and for more than that amount of time after the civil war, america nurtures

policies that did not live up to the creed that all men are created equal or that they are born with unalienable rights. for many african americans, including those descended from enslaved people, the fourth of july can be seen as a celebration of a nation that was both born into slavery and profit off of it. we cannot claim that the mission say complished and ideals have been achieved when black women and men are still denied access to liberty, prosperity, and justice. i'm sure frederick douglas if he were here today would argue there's no need to cancel the fourth of july using today's vernacular. but there's a need to fulfill its promise. to grow into the country that he, a man born and enslaved believed that america could be. as douglas said on this day 168 years ago, no abuse, no outrage, whether in taste, sport, or a r

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it's july fourth, our nation's independence day. yet as frederick douglas noted 170 years ago, those marching in the streets for racial equality would agree that today, july fourth, doesn't seem like a celebration for all americans. joining me now, a pair of domestic winners, domestic correspondent at the "new york times" magazine, nicole hanna

jones. the cofounder of the ida b. wells society. her most recent piece, what is owed, makes the case for reparations. also with me, historian jon meacham. also an msnbc contributor and his latest book, paytism, prote the music that made a nation. thank you for being here. nicole, let me start with you. let's just discuss the idea that maybe for the first time in a couple of decades a lot of americans are realizing that independence day doesn't symbolize the same thing to everybody. >> yeah. thanks for having me on and for your coverage, as usual. independence day has always been very complex for black americans. clearly we are americans, this is the holiday that marks the independence of our country. but as you pointed out with frederick douglass' speech, douglass perhaps the greatest american the country has produced, black people were not free on independence day. when this country decided that

it -- when the colonists decided that they needed to break off from britain in order to become free themselves, they held one-fifth of the population in bondage. that population were enslaved back people. we would -- black people. we would not know freedom by law and citizenship in this country until nearly a century later at the end of the civil war. it's interesting that this has long been a conflicted feeling for black people. the rest of america is starting to think about what this holiday has actually meant. >> john, i want top ask you about this because you are an historian. and there is a sense that we develop about stories and history and heritage and culture that once it is written, it is done. i think if there's anything that this era is teaching us and the era of civil rights in the '60s taught us, is that it's not. it's moveable. the idea that independence day represents something doesn't mean it can't represent something else. we can evolve into this.

>> that's one of the great gifts of the enlightenment. the great gifts of what "the new york times" has been doing with the 1619 project. i'm the wrong person at the moment to talk about how you recast a narrative because that's what nicole and her colleagues have done so amazingly. a real shift, a fundamental shift in the fact that for generations we looked at 1776 as the day of nativity for the united states, but no, it's 1619. it's when the white lion came with enslaved and representative government and colonization. all those forces were unfolding long before thomas jefferson sat down, who had brought an enslaved person with him to philadelphia and sat in the boarding house and wrote --

hugely important document. this is a day -- i always resist the more perfect union language on july 4th because this is mission statement day. the constitution was the manual about how to make things work. this is the day that we decided, we the continental congress, thought that we could, in fact, create a country devoted to an idea. and jefferson himself thought that the more important parts of the declaration were the various articles against george iii because they were arguing hard. and trying to make sure. remember, this country's always been divided. probably 20% of the country didn't want to follow along with what the declaration did to date. the narrative is vastly important because we as human beings, we take on experiences, we arrange them in our minds and

in our hearts, and that informs our lives not just in looking back but in looking forward. and that's the work for the 4th of july. >> and nicole, this is interesting work because when you started working on "1619," it is a date that most white americans wouldn't have known if you were talking about 1619. but there are people who open their minds to this. on twitter you direct people to things they can read and watch, ways in which they can learn. some people dig in and say -- including the president -- say this is an attack on our culture and history. you look to germany and don't see nazi monuments in germany. they don't do that. it doesn't mean that every german doesn't understand nazi history and hitler. how do you succeed other than your great writing for which you got a pulitzer prize? how do you get people to understand the narrative can change and doesn't have to be

exclusive. it's more inclusive. >> exactly. when someone says that, what they're saying is that there is a singular narrative that we need to teach americans, and they feel it is dangerous to teach a more conclusive and accurate narrative. there are multiple narratives of the united states. there are multiple founding stories of the united states. and for too long we've taught this one narrative that glorifies white supremacy, that glorifies colonization, and now we're challenging that. we're saying, let's trouble this narrative a bit. what did there mean for the one-fifth of the population that was enslaved? what does this mean for native people who were losing their lands and that was one of the reasons the connists in want to bolt from england, they wanted to take more native land. if you are truly a country on solid ground, if your foundation is strong, you can tell the truth. what we're asking for is not a hatred of america, but the

"1619" project is not about hating america. my essay is the most patriotic thing i've written. what it is saying is we have to be honest about who the country is and what this country is because only if we're honest, you know, the words that tenhom jefferson wrote are majestic ideals, amazing ideals. we have not lived up to them. we will never live up to them if we don't acknowledge the wrongs that this country has done. as i say in the essay on reparations, you don't just inherit the glory of the place, you inherit its sins, as well. >> thank you to both of you for the hard work that you have done to make us all smarter. nicole hannah jones, journalist with "the new york times" magazine, and john meacham, historian and pulitzer prize-winning author. thanks for watching. joining us tomorrow from 8:00 to 10:00. joshua johnson will sit in for me as i take a breather. have a safe and happy 4th. next, a former navy s.e.a.l.

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the great principles of political freedom and natural justice embodied in that declaration of independence extended to us? >> i am not included within the pale of this glorious anniversary. >> your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. good morning, welcome to "a.m. joy."