was interfering in the 2016 presidential election. stone was also convicted of witness tampering and obstruction. taking to the same platform in which retweeted an apparent supporter white power, trump roo writes in part this morning, quote, it is the other side that our criminals, including biden and obama, who spied on my campaign and got caught. now, mr. president, the commutation is not a pardon and roger stone is still a convicted criminal and trump has never put forthny tangible nonconspiracyial evidence for the campaign which he first conjured up in his first month in office. it says, quote, wronger stone s roger stone is a victim of the russia hoax that the democrats perpetuated for years in an attempt to undermine the presidency. and also in part, stone has appealed his conviction and is seeking a new trial. the president does not wish to interfere with his efforts to do so. at this time, however, and

particularly in light of the egregious facts and circumstances surrounding his unfair prosecution, arrest and trial, the president has determined to commute his sentence. roger stone has already suffered greatly. he was treated very unfairly as were many others in this case. roger stone is now a free man! end quote. the sentence commutation is implemented by the department of justice. but weirdly enough on wednesday bill barr says he believes stone's prosecution was, quote, appropriate, and the sentence was, quote, fair. speaking last night, stone wearing a machbling ask and a t bearing his own name pushed a different view. does that make sense? i'll let you listen and be the judge. >> it's an act of justice. the people running around and screaming about the rule of law are ridiculous. they weren't screaming about the rule of law when loretta lynch and bill clinton were wiring hillary's missing email case on the floor -- on the tarmac. what about the rule of law when

barack obama in a largest abuse of power in american history uses the authority of the united states and the capability of our intelligence agency to spy on the republican candidate for president? pardon me, folks, but isn't that what we removed richard nixon for? so rule of law my -- we don't even come close. >> feel like you need hear that for yourself. joining me now from the white house national political reporter for nbc news josh lederman. good morning. just hours before issuing the commutation, trump told reporters he would be, quote, looking at it. so things moved pretty fast in this case. >> reporter: they sure do. but we do know there was a time crunch here bas roger stone was set to report to jail within days. so. it president wanted to remove the possibility that roger stone was going to be going into prison, he had to act fast. but, look, we know the president has long been considering this move, has talked about

considering pardoning or offering commutation to roger stone. and really the concern that we're hearing from democrats is something that was echoed in an interview that roger stone himself gave shortly before this news where he noted the fact that when he was under prosecution, that he had been under enormous pressure to turn on trump and had, in fact, not, suggesting that the president kind of owed him for that. and democrats say that's exactly the point, that the pardon power that is granted to the president is not supposed to be used as leverage to get someone to not cooperate with law enforcement to try to shield the president from an investigation. we heard from the joe biden campaign making this exact point and saying that president trump has once again abused his power releasing this commutation on a friday night. biden campaign spokesman going on to say that trump will not be shamed, he will only be stopped when americans make their voice heard at the ballot box this fall.

and, look, we know as much as democrats have consternation about this, there's not a whole lot they can do. the constitution is pretty clear the president has absolute power do this. it's not reviewable by a court or any other type of entity like that. now, we do know that some democratic chairman and the house are requesting a briefing from the white house about why this occurred. i'm not sure how much good that's really going to do them even if they are able to get some type of briefing. and that's why you hear democrats making this political argument that we heard from the biden campaign, that if people are upset about this, if this is not conduct they want to see from the president, that their solution is to vote for someone else in november. >> josh, good to see you my friend. thank you. josh lederman for us this morning at the white house. mar m . meanwhile, president trump's insistence that covid-19 will disappear, the reality of the situation is much more severe than that. the united states has recorded more than 3 million cases of coronavirus in nearly 135,000

deaths. look at the seven-day average there it the had it has been moving up. as i mentioned the top of the country, the country -- at the top of the hour, the country continues to set new case records almost daily. a new one yesterday topping more than 70,000 new covid-19 cases. on average, cases are growing by at least 5% in at least 36 states. but even worse, hospitalizations and deaths are steadily and significantly rising once again hitting record numbers in many areas. and the intensive care units in several states, notably in florida and texas are increasingly overloaded. in phoenix, arizona, the mortgage is rapidly reaching capacity and officials have called in refrigerated trailers in which to store bodies. it's gotten to the point that dr. anthony fauci says states with severe outbreaks should think about shutting down while the country will soon eclipse 100,000 cases new cases per day. just like the spring, the situation is taking a major toll

on those who are tasked with saving our lives. >> we're just tired and frustrated. here in california we managed to flatten the curve back in the spring. fastforward four months later, it's exhausting and a little demoralizing to think that we are right back in that same position. it does feel like it's out of control, that it's not being managed in a controlled way. and it's a scary prospect. >> one of the big questions on everybody's minds is what's going to happen with schools come fall? as bringing back students seems to run counter to public health guidance to pack students and kids in tight quarters. joining me now is the superintendent of the school district in clark county,

nevada. his plan to reopen schools was just approved this week by the district's trustees. thank you for being with us. and it's interesting, because we keep talking about fall and labor day and september, but, in fact, school is scheduled to reopen in nevada august 24th. it's often that way in other states. let's talk about your plan. it's a hybrid. it has kids coming to school a couple days a week and schooling from home a few days a week. tell me about this. >> yeah, no, well thank you, first of all, for having me. good morning. well, you know, it's following the nevada's path forward and our plan to open up schools, you know, the health officials are saying, obviously, that we got to bring them in on cohorts following social distancing guidelines. so we're bringing in our students at this point in cohort "a" monday, tuesday. wednesday we're going to devote a day of cleaning, make sure that we sanitize and clean our entire buildings and then we bring our second cohort b and c. we have some of the challenges

with our class size, our facilities and the way that we can bring our students at least to get some kind of face-to-face instruction with our hard-working teachers is two days. now, we also have a choice for some of our parents that students can stay on a distance and online education. but that brings to us huge challenges as a school system. as you know, urban education has been, you know, funded at a very low. our school system here in nevada, one of the lowest in urban education. to me, that's one of my biggest concerns because of the technology and the lack of resources and internet connectivity to our most vulnerable students. it's really a huge challenge for us. and it's limiting some of the access and opportunities that we have for students. so, you know, we're -- our board provision, we approved it and we're sending it forward to the state department for final approval. >> so, superintendent, it deals

with a number of things. some degree of face-to-face instruction with teachers. it deals with having smaller class size so you can social distance a little bit more, and it deals with given parents dmois they wa choice if they don't want their kids to come to school. one of the factstors is not enough funding, but a lot of parents don't have a not nchoic not to work. >> that's one of the biggest challenges that we've taken on as a school system is, you know, the challenge to open up the economy, you know, the childcare, i'm working with partners, with our mu nis pa municipalities to try to find ways. i understand the challenge of the child care. my hardworking teachers, you know, as professional as they are, and locally as well, it is a huge challenge for us. but we -- we have to do what's best for kids. i'm going to tell you, as i said

to the board of trustees and i said to this community, i can't put -- as a father i cannot put my kids in harm's way and i can't put my educators. the only way i can do this in some way is to provide some of these options. i mean, i think that is one of the big ef issues that we'gest facing. i can't put my kids in an unhealthy situation and that's what the experts are telling me. >> yeah. we have in this country for some decades been putting our kids in harm's way just in the way we fund public education. and be in your state, among others, because every state has funding gaps, there's a proposal by the governor to cut $166 million from k through 12 education. and this is one of those priority issues in life where we decide -- kids keep getting hurt by public school funding cuts. >> well, i think that's where -- this is a time where we need to

invest in our kids. this is a time where we need to, as a country and as a community invest in our children to diversify the economy. what covid-19, i believe, has done has put a magnifying glass in the inequities that are really exploiting in our public school system and owl our urban kids, which is something that, as a superintendent, it's real, it's something we've always known. this is tay tia time we have to invest. i have kids that we're looking to ininvestigate invest to provide technology and partner with our companies to get internet into our kids' home. if you're thinking about what we're doing, the lack of investment in our public school system has caught up to us and this is the perfect time for us to real lin investigaly invest children. >> i couldn't agree more.

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the greatest long term threat to our nation's information and intellectual property and to our economic vitality is the counterintelligence and economic espionage threat from china. >> that was fbi director chris ray on tuesday saying that thousands of the fbi's counterintelligence cases have to do with china and that the country's engaging in, quote, one of the largest transfers of wealth in human history. but let's talk about this. what are the facts? in may, the fbi and the u.s. cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency said they were

investigating chinese hacks saying the actors for the chinese government attempted to steal coronavirus research data and information about potential vaccines. ray's comments come on the heels of state mike pompeo's comments that the u.s. is looking at a possible ban on the popular mobile app tiktok. it's owned by chinese company but doesn't operate in china and functions independently of the country, we're told. and then there's this. listen to what peter navarro told me last week. >> what i said was that any trust of the chinese communist party is over because of their behavior not just in coming here to sign a trade deal without telling us there was a virus and an pandemic afoot, but also everything that has transpired. two things i want to share with your audience today is that the chinese communist party is responsible for every bad thing we're experiencing right now.

>> chinese communist party is responsible for every bad thing we are experiencing. now, let's hold two thoughts in our mind at the same time. there are issues and problems with what china does. but there's a pattern here. just blame china. and you have to wonder. it trump administration is laying the groundwork for an excuse come november that this election could be illegitimate because of china's involvement. remember, the last one wasn't i will legit meant because of russia's involvement but hold that thought in your head. joining me now, sam sax, and malcolm, the author of the book to betray america, how team trump embraced our enemies, compromised our security and how we can fix it. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. malcolm, i need you to help me with this one because there's no question that china's been up to no good on several levels, including trade and espionage, and that they may be up to no good now. so how do i hold those two

thoughts in my mind, that we need to do something about china, but we got watch out that china doesn't become the excuse for the trump administration when it comes to elections? >> there is no doubt that china is a strategic adversary against the united states. that is just a given. china is also a major economic competitor to the united states. so. it united states is going to play in this arena, we can't do it by putting our head in the and is and saying china is the bugaboo for all of our problems. if china was so nefarious, donald trump's daughter would give up her patents and stop making money there and trump would give up his ties there. the chinese understand how we are hobbled by the ignorance of donald trump and they are eating our lunch and they're going to do it economically and if they can do through industrial espionage, they'll do that too. but it's our own ignorance this is helping china along here. >> sam, let's talk about --

malcolm touched on it -- china has even the our lunch to some degree economically because we have been outsourcing things to be made in china, it's the world's factory floor. but the threat is shifting. it's not just the economic threat that keeps our wages low here in america by giving us cheap goods that we import. the cyber issue is real? how real is it to you? because you study this. >> the soocyberthreat is real, when we're talking about potential election -- let's look at the facts. we know that the bind campaiden was hacked, but what china hacks, it's more what are they thinking about policy? today we don't have clear information about specific election interference, that's more of a russia game. it doesn't mean we shouldn't remain vigilant about it, but i think we're conflating a lot of different issues at play. >> malcolm, you will remember in

october of 2019 donald trump actually said that china should investigate, right after getting in trouble for the fact that he said this to the ukrainians, he said that china should investigate the bidens. let's just play that. >> they should investigate the bidens because how does a company that's newly formed and all these companies -- and by the way, likewise, china should start an investigation into the bidens. because what happened in china is just about as bad as what happened with -- with ukraine. >> i'm not sure what that last sentence means, but how do we square that, malcolm? on one hand donald trump was calling on the entire world to investigate joe biden. and there's some evidence in john bolton's book that he was actually sort of trying to cozy up to the chinese to say if you look into biden or help me with the election, i won't come down as hard on you on either trade

or t hong kong stuff. now the last seven days has been blaming china for everything. how do you square these two? >> that's a base strategy in which he eyeses his xenophobia and racism to blame china for everything, try to tie joe biden to that at the same time. but, you know, his base does not care what the truth is. they don't care whatsoever. as your asteamed colleague a moment earlier said. they are a collection country, we call it abc strategy, always be collecting. and then tuesday in ways that we generally don't see. donald trump actually went out to china and essentially asked them for assistance in attacking his opponent, believing that this would benefit him. china is going to use that. but what they're not going to do is do what russia did. as you said a moment ago, they are not going to interfere with this election, they will just allow the united states to self-destruct and it's just another meal that we're going to

give them on a plate to be eaten. >> sam, i'm going out on a big limb here because i don't know really how tiktok works. but there's a lot of talk about tiktok in the last few days and it's relationship to china. now, a lot of people who are watching this who may know much more about it than i do the 'but i think about it as a thing that young people use to do dance song things. what's the issue here? what's the connection between tiktok and china and what's the danger? >> yeah. and i agree. my hairdresser uses tiktok to get new margarita recipes. so is this a strategic intelligence collection target? let's talk about that. but the key issue is, tiktok's parent company is a chinese company. so the question is, is data that is being collected on tiktok's platform in the u.s. potentially being sent via byte distance to the chinese government and used to gain some kind of intelligence advances over the united states in the key question is, is tiktok

adequately firewalled from its chinese operation? the company says that they are and they're putting in place measures to do so. we need to see some independent outside auditing of that. if they can prove that, that that's really important, then we should back off. the second question, as i mentioned before, what would the chinese government do with that information about margarita recipes and lip syncing and my cat in my backyard if they had it? and think we need to be careful, are we heading into a u.s. cyber sovereignty? we're beginning to mimic the chinese government where we're using blanket national security bans to take out competitors. you ban tiktok in the u.s., that's handing facebook a gift on a silver platter. >> very interesting. more to discuss about that. thank you for your expertise on this. sam sax is a cybersecurity policy at new america and senior fellow at yale law school. malcolm nance, nbc terror analyst and author of a few

books. thanks to both of you. the coronavirus pandemic is putting humanity to the test and the leader of the world health organization says a lack of leadership and unity is worse than the virus itself. i wonder who he could be referring to? d be referring to ♪ ♪all strength ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪

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because they have failed to make the requested and greatly needed reforms, we will be today terminating our relationship with the world health organization and redirecting those funds to other worldwide and deserving urgent global public health needs. >> president trump announced his plans to withdraw the united states from the world health organization back in may. now the white house has officially notified congress and the united nations of its decision which could take up to

a year to implement. pardon me. trump has faced swift pushback from not only members of congress, but also from the director general of the world health organization who seemingly took aim at trump. quote, the greatest threat we face now is not the virus itself, rather it's the lack of leadership and solidarity at the global and national levels. the covid-19 pandemic is a test of global solidarity and global leadership. the virus thrives on division, but is thwarted when we unite, end quote. with me now is the director of the global health program at the council on foreign relations. tom, it's good to see you again. just a little bit of a complicated issue. the relationship between the united states and the world health organization is fraught not just because of donald trump, this is an organization that has come under criticism for a long time. is it valid and is this the right thing to do? >> so, some amount of criticism is valid. the w.h.o. is not a perfect

organization, that is true for anyone who's worked with them before will acknowledge the same. but, actually, have done better in this pandemic than past pandemics and have been improving. we've been part of that. this more importance here is, does this make or more important question which is your second question, does this make americans more safe? and it absolutely does not. right now, ten countries in the world represent 80% of the growth in this virus, this pandemic. the u.s., of course, leads that. every other one of those countries is a low and middle-income country. those are precisely the countries that rely the most on the world health organization. it's their fire department. and right now, the fire is burning. they're calling for support. w.h.o. is rolling out the trucks and we are pulling our support for those trucks in that response, precisely when they're most needed. >> the world health organization, the relationship the u.s. has with it as is a shareholder, sort of a major participate and funder, aim as

at the imf, it's that type of organization. the guardian had an article in which it says if trump's america first agenda has any organizing theme beyond self-interest and chaos, it's above all a profound dislike of multilateral institutional organizations and agreements not at least of which is the u.n. and others threatened at the hands of washington. the reason i bring this up, tom, i'm trying to understand how much of this will be effective and how much of this is just an ideological fit with this administration? we don't like multilateral organizations. we don't like these global things, it's become a calling cry for american conservatives that we don't like to be part of big organizations. >> yeah. so, i mean, historically that's not been true for global health. global health is the one area that really has had bipartisan support in our foreign policy, consistently. so the bush administration started the program that we have on hiv aids that delivers

treatment to people word wide every year. clinton administration was the first to recognize infectious diseases as national security threat. these investments were continued in the obama administration, has lots of support among republican members of congress. this diplomaticzation of the w.h.o. is new. we've had criticisms before, but they haven't been tied to a particular party, they've been tied to the fact that we want this organization to work better. but i think people need to understand is your first point that you made, which is we are a shareholder. this organization is what its member states make it to be in terms of its funding and its authorities. blaming them for their poor performance to a certain exsent like blaming madison square garden for the lousy performance of the knicks. at the end of the day it's the member states that determine how effective this organization is. and, you know, the facilities spl play some role in that but we

need to take responsibility too. >> thomas is the director of global health tep council on foreign relations. two huge supreme court victories for native americans this week. what it may indicate for the community going forward. that's just ahead. or the community going forward. that's just ahead.

native americans have been one of the most marginalized people in this country ever since its founding the but this week two court rulings gave them

something to cheer about. on thursday, the supreme court declared that much of eastern oklahoma falls within an indian reservation which will now prevent state authorities from prosecuting crimes of native american peoples on those lands. this is seen as one of the most sweeping cases regarding indigenous territories that has come before the court in decades. also coming as a surprise, the opinion of the case was written by justice neil gorsuch who was appointed by president trump in 2017. he joined the liberal justices in the 5-4 ruling. and earlier in the week, a federal judge ruled that the highly controversial dakota access pipeline, remember that, must shut down pending an environmental review and it must be emptied of all oil by august 5th. now, the pipeline was the center of protests in south dakota in 2016 that lasted for months before the trump administration approved construction of dapl in 2017. activists, celebrities, politicians and just regular folks descended on the area to

provide. in the blistering within the months, fighting against the pipeline, which crossed near the standing rock sioux reservation. officials at the company that own the pipeline say they will appeal the ruling. they also say it will take three months to effectively shut down the pipeline and that it won't be able to finish by the judge's deadline. joining me now is the executive director of the thunder valley community development corporation. it's good to see you again. thank you for being with us. let's talk about both of these issues but let's start with the dakota access pipeline. there were two distinct issues, although they were not disconnected. one was a number of people who where are just environmentalists who don't like pipelines and felt they didn't want that pipeline. others say that this compromises native lands. and certainly a lot of people at those protests who went there and got arrested believed that both of those two things are the same. but tell me what this means to you as a representative and you had official office with the native peoples of this country. >> right. so, at the time of the no dapl

movement and when the water -- descend upon the treaty territory, i was the attorney general for the sioux tribe. so i was in a unique position to see both, you know, the federal response during that time and the tribal response. and from the tribal sovereignty very much in solidarity with enforcing treaty rights, water rights of the people because it affected more than just standing arc as well. i know cheyenne river sioux tribe was part of that legal action to protect, you know, the waters of the missouri river. and so, you know, it was a tremendous time. again, movements like this happen throughout history for indigenous people and it was just an amazing opportunity for people across the world to see indigenous people unite in the way that they did. >> yeah. by the way, we're seeing in these protests today the black lives matter protests, how so

many nonafrican-americans have joined that protest. that's what the dakota access pipeline looked like. this was a place where people came from different walks of life, different communities across the country to join this protest. do you think they were influential in the outcome or not necessarily? >> absolutely, because it brought a global spotlight to the issues. as indigenous people were we face a tremendous amount of invisibility in this world today, our history, or our current status and all of the work that happens in our communities every day for our fight for liberation, for our fight for healing in our communities, from the genocide and the oppression that we face. so any time we can have a global spotlight on our efforts is tremendous in the movement towards enforcing our rights, enforcing our sovereignty, and ultimately our people's liberation. and when we talk about the environmental justice movement and indigenous rights movement, sometimes they can be at odds, right, when you're protecting, for example, endangered species

act. how do knows coincide and collide sometimes with indigenous rights? hunting and fishing rights for instance in the northwest area sometimes will seem to be at odds. but i would like to remind everybody that as indigenous people we are the original stewards of this land, so our interests are always in the protection of the earth and its resources and as well as maintaining them for future generations. >> let me talk about the oklahoma thing. i come from canada where i think we've done a better job in canada than we have in the united states of acknowledging the degree to which native lands were stolen. and now when you go to any gathering in canada it always starts off with a recognition of the land that you are on and the name of the community whose land that was. oklahoma, a third grader could have told you that this was land that, first of all, in many cases native americans were forced on to and then that was even taken from them. so it shouldn't come as a surprise, but it seems very meaningful, this decision.

>> absolutely. so, criminal jurisdiction especially if indian country has been a contentious issue since the ola font decision of the supreme court in which it stripped and failed to recognize the inherent sofrvereignty of indigenous communities to enforce their own laws. so there's this underlying premise in the world of united states jurisprudence of laws and policies that anything is indian sin co is incompetent. and i talked about miss mant willi dismantling all that was set up in this country, it was wrong from the beginning. a tremendous win for those tribal nations in oklahoma. the next step is fully

recognizing the indigenous nations without any federal influence. right now every indian country have concurrent jurisdiction, federal and tribal. the next step would be to oversurgeon ola fant and restore it. so it's a first step of many. >> unusual things happen these days so i guess anything's possible. good to see you again, thank you for being with me. she's the executive director of the corporation. many of the businesses that got small loans, let's just say many of them are not what you could consider small. say many of them are not what you could consider small. could con . . something great from mr. clean.

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over the phone, or online. - it's a relief to know there are treatments for td. after much push and pull this week the small business administration finally released the full list of recipients of ppp support. those were the paycheck protection program loans to companies to keep people

employed. the small business lending program got a lot of criticism because large companies received loans they didn't need. also included in the list of companies which received ppp money were hedge funds, country clubs, major fashion brands, businesses with ties to the president, members of congress -- ties to the president or member of congress, and the catholic church. in fact, according to the data, 16 billionaires received ppp money for their companies, including the rapper kanye west. despite the backlash, overall ppp has been deemed suflts and a new round of funding for small businesses is expected to continue through august 8th. joining me now is the magazine editor at large who specializes in small businesses. kim, let's pull back for a second at 50,000 feet from you look at that program would you stay was successful? >> think ovi think overall i'd a "c." it did support a lot of small business and continues to do so. however, it was put out in a hurry, which i think is understandable. and in order to get rolling

quickly, congress did away with a lot of the safeguards that the sba usually has in place to prevent things like this. they also did things like specifically allowing faith-based institutions to apply for the loans, which would not have happened not have happened before. whenever you have a situation like that, you'll have people lining up saying if there's money, i might as well get some. i don't have to prove i need it. on the other hand, about 5 million small businesses did get loans. the sba is saying that's supporting about 85% of the small business work force. the only way that works, those numbers work, is even if within the category of small business it's mostly the larger businesses that got funded. so i think it's important, as you mentioned before, to say there's money left. right. really small businesses can get funded. >> so i want to go back to your "c" evaluation. i think back to the stimulus

bill during the last recession. the goal, though called stimulus, is for people to hire business or keep them in jobs. that was the role of ppp. we'll give you a loan, it'll be a forgivable grant if you keep people on the payroll. the goal is can you keep people employed? is it it didn't go to the right people? >> i guess if we only look at it as employment, i would give it a "b." because a lot of businesses were thinking i can't use this money to keep them employed right now because i don't have any work for them. so a lot of people, i think, who could have got the loans stayed away for that reason. they changed the rules to make it easier to keep the people employed. you have more time to use the money. if that was in the effect in the beginning, but hindsight is 20/20. no one knew how it was going to roll out. it could have potentially helped

more businesses faster. >> kim, one of the things, as you said, they need to get the money out quickly. there was pressure to do so. so sometimes all the eyes are not dotted and the t's crossed. it was meant for employment. talk about the roman catholic church. they seemed to get $1.4 billion in taxpayer-based aid. is the money not supposed to entirely go for keeping people employed? the catholic church has a lot of other expenses, including settlements. >> right. so you originally needed to use, in order to get forgiveness 75% of the money on payroll. that's been reduced to 60%. at the beginning, there was a lot of confusion about what would happen if you got the loan and didn't use it for that purpose. would it be fraud or just a low-interest loan you were able to get? the rational allowing faith-based institutions to apply was that they often

provide social services to their communities. as you mentioned, you know, we don't know right now where that money went. >> kim, what is the issue with small businesses who have been complaining to the government that because they have the $600 extra in federal assistance on unemployment, they're having trouble maintaining employees because some people feel they have more money with the government assistance than earning their wages. that itself is a fundamental problem if you're getting more money on government assistance than working. that may speak to wages. how has that been resolved? >> it hasn't really been fully resolved. a lot of people are sort of waiting to see what congress did. we expect maybe some sort of extension or change in this by the july 4th weekend. we didn't get it. for business owners that have people making generally it's under $40 or $50,000 a year. it's a real problem. usually the best way the business owners have to get people back in the situation is if they're providing health

insurance to point out how important that is and that the of 00 a week is not going to last forever. for someone making minimum wage, you have to appreciate how much the $600 a week is. again, that won't last forever. i think the bigger concern is going back for employees is going to be am i living with someone who is severely imyou know comprised or those issues going forward. >> and, of course, the problem that this was invented for is not going away any time soon. so as we adjust these things or if there's another traunch of money that comes out, what changes do you think are necessary? >> well, i think one of them that was necessary that they did was to allow the money to be used over a longer period of time. i think small businesses also need more flexibility in how they will use the money. something that has been a big problem, frankly, it was administratored by t

administered by the banks. a different mechanism for getting out to business owners in some countries where they have good investment in government and financial systems, they made the payments directly to workers. i think you then have a better idea of where the money is going and who needs it and how it's being used. >> kim, thank you for joining us. editor at large at "inc. magazine." we didn't get a response from the biden campaign on that talking about the fact they were not hacked by china so they just wanted to bring that to our attention. the biden campaign has issued a statement, in fact, they issued it back in june saying that they were not hacked. so we will make sure that we know that going forward. that does it for me. thank you for watching. you can watch me back here tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern. join me again tomorrow morning from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. eastern. coming up next joy reid is

joined by anthony skau new kyi to talk about trump's wild friday night. you're watching msnbc. you're watching msnbc. if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to target weeds precisely and kill them right down to the root. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. well the names have all changed since you hung around

but those dreams have remained and they've turned around who'd have thought they'd lead ya back here where we need ya welcome back, america. it sure is good to see you.

there are two systems of justice in america. one for criminal friends of the president, like michael flynn and roger stone, and one for everybody else. essentially the president is using bill barr as a shield now to protect those who are lying

for him and overing up for him. what may be more dangerous is what is to come. that is bill barr using the sword to investigate and prosecute the president's enemies. good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." this is what the rule of law in america has come to. donald trump on friday night commuted the snnts of his buddy roger stone sparing him prison time after he was convicted of obstructing the congressional investigation into the trump campaign's ties into russia. donald trump didn't go as far as pardoning stone, perhaps stone would have had to admit to his crimes. it came after a federal appears court denied stone's motion to delay reporting to prison. stone argued he's at a heightened risk for complications of covid. apparently stone is the rare american trump actually cares about protecting from the pandemic. the source told nbc news that trump