for him and overing up for him. what may be more dangerous is what is to come. that is bill barr using the sword to investigate and prosecute the president's enemies. good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." this is what the rule of law in america has come to. donald trump on friday night commuted the snnts of his buddy roger stone sparing him prison time after he was convicted of obstructing the congressional investigation into the trump campaign's ties into russia. donald trump didn't go as far as pardoning stone, perhaps stone would have had to admit to his crimes. it came after a federal appears court denied stone's motion to delay reporting to prison. stone argued he's at a heightened risk for complications of covid. apparently stone is the rare american trump actually cares about protecting from the pandemic. the source told nbc news that trump called stone to him the

good news personally. stone talked to reporters outside his house. >> on my conviction so i -- and i had a choice of a pardon or a comation. i'm happy to have that because i want to clear my name. i'm happy to fight it out and i'm happy i would like to win a new trial and vindication. >> oh, and something else happened last night in what has become a friday night news tradition with this administration. william barr suddenly replaced. the u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york who had been working on the ukraine scandal at the center of trump's impeachment. perfect. joining me now is editor in chief of the national em moe and author of "man of the world." anthony scare new kyi.

joe, you know roger. you know him very well. i want to read you the white house statement he expects to be fully exonerated by the justice system. roger stone suffered greatly. he was treated unfairly as were many others in the case. you can say that about a lot of people that are in prison who committed crimes. they are older, they face risk in prison of covid. donald trump it seems he decided he's an extra person because donald trump doesn't seem to care about covid. your thoughts? >> well, joy, he's an extra special person because he knows too much about donald trump and the russia affair. i think, you know, it was very clear in his own communications publicly and in my belief private communications he sent to the president that it would not be in the president's interest for roger stone to

spend a single night in prison. and whether he's vulnerable to covid or not. it's clear this is the furtherance of an obstruction conspiracy that is wider than mr. stone. and that turned out to be an innocent act and not well judged but there was a three year investigation, criminal investigation of that pardon because it was seen as potentially corrupt. this is the same kind of case except that in this case, there may well be corruption. i think the president vulnerable to investigation for this or even now. >> yeah, absolute lie. and, you know, may well you're being generous on the corruption

front. roger stone is not just any criminal. he is somebody who has attacked a federal judge, attacked her. posted a photo of her, a judge, near cross hairs. she dismissed the request to remove her from the case. roger stone -- about roger stone last month a prosecutor testified before congress that the department of justice exerted political influence trying to push for a lighter sentence for stone. prosecutors were warned we could lose your jobs. despite bill barr pretending he thought the conviction was fair. your thoughts on all of this, joyce? ? >> joy, roger stone is a man who has a tattoo of richard nixon on his back. i think that exemplifies the way he believes the world works. this is a man, let's be clear, the mueller report, which i know you recall was heavily redacted

before the attorney general lied to the american about its content. the mueller report established was a key lynch pin between russia, wikileaks, the trump campaign, and the president himself. roger stone was convicted of trying to protect this president. i think the astonishing thing here is that now it's clear that this president has abused the pardon power to reward roger stone for that protection, there's absolutely no outcry for anyone other than romney on the republican side of the aisle. no protest resignation from an attorney general who said that the roger stone prosecution was right. just clearly he said that, as you said, pretending to mean it. so the reality here is that this stone pardon should not come as a surprise to us. it was a certainty it would happen. the real problem is the republican establishment that lets the president get away with

this conduct again and again until our justice system is a mockery >>well, not only watched the crime happen or watched the corruption happen, appears to have gotten a heads up on it. lindsey graham two hours before donald trump commutes the sentence, here is his tweet. he sounds a lot like somebody who had inside knowledge of that. they're participants they're not even just observing silently. let me play for a moment barbara mcquaid for you. she was on with the great rachel maddow last night. >> i think one could make an argument that this is bribery pure and simple. a quid pro quo. an exchange of a thing of value in exchange for an official act. even if trump should lose re-election in november, there could be value in impeaching him. the remedy for impeachment is not simply removal from office.

it's to bar someone from seeking office in the future. if president trump were to decide for president in 2024, if he were impeached, he could be barred from holding office in the future. >> i mean, because, ellie, you know, the thing is, if donald trump loses under the constitution, he could run again. right. he could try to run for president again. is that a good point? should he be impeached again? >> i mean, i know democrats too well to ever believe that's going back. right, as joyce said, she's right. this pardon was a long time going. there's a reason -- roger stone knew -- it's not just lindsey graham. roger stone knew he was going to get a pardon. that's why he walks around with the smirk since 1976. it was a pardon of self-preservation and everybody knew it was coming. the only relevant question is, what are democrats going to do

about it if they ever take power again? right. and it's not about stone or trump. it's not about trying to grab stone out of mar-a-lago before he gets the trump tattoo on his shoulder. on his last day in office, barack obama pardoned 330 nonviolent drug offenders. and that was a great work. that was great work by the obama/biden administration. but there are 78,000 federal nonviolent drug offenders. you want to show republicans what a fully operational pardon power looks like, pardon them all on day one of the biden administration. what are republicans going to say? we don't like the process. no. [ inaudible ] >> yeah. no, i think that's a fair point. this morning donald trump tweeted the following --

anthony, you tweeted donald trump has a brain of a lunatic. that's what you said about him and his erratic behavior around covid. is he the kind of lunatic who might next task william barr with trying to prosecute former obama administration officials? or trying to go after president obama himself. here is the thing, he appears to be cleaning up on aisle 12 on the way potentially out the door. potentially pardoning his friends, commuting their sentences. cleaning it up so there's no one to testify against him. but barr has affirmative things he could do, which would be to go after people and try to prosecute trump's enemies. you know, as elliot said, joe

biden might not have the stomach to do those. it's hard to believe trump doesn't. >> i mean, everything is on the table. i don't think that's going to happen because even bill barr knows there's certain things he shouldn't be doing and once in awhile he's gently push back on the president. >> does he? wait, does he? are you sure about that? are you sure about that? he knows there are things? >> yeah, he's had a few interviews where he said, jeez, i wish the president would stop saying that or stop intervening. believe me, i know there's no daylight in tweeting them but i don't think he can go in a direction where he's going to go after barack obama or vice president biden. it's not to say the president wouldn't do that. there's something else going on here. we have to beat donald trump if we want to preserve our democracy. so start thinking the way he thinks. he commuted roger stone's sentence because roger has the goods on him. it's that simple. and then you have to think about all of the reckless behavior of the president during the

presidency and prior to that and then draw a may tix of all the other people in his life that have the goods on him. i'm telling you right now, it's not just -- probably the russians, probably autocratic leaders around the world, and it's a whole series of other people before he got into the presidency. so you guys want to beat him? i want to beat him. you have to start thinking like him and be less astonished about what he's doing and get ahead of him. you have to look down the chess board and see what he's going to do next. they're not going away after joe biden -- that's my opinion. but they will do very nefarious things. you see, that tweet today was a conspiracy theory tweet. he has a large group of people that actually believe what he says. they're walking around without masks. his goal is to get those people out in force without greater voter participation than our people. okay. and we have this wonderful,

colorful mosaic of people to come together to beat him. we have to start thinking like him. if you don't and you're acting astonished for what he's doing, we won't beat him. he'll move again and we'll go what is that? that sort of thing. i can tell you i'm not astonished. i don't think anybody who watches this show is astonished. we've been saying since we said that bill barr on this show -- umm, was reeling up the cover up over the mueller report. you know, umm, you know, we saw it coming like a thousand miles away, umm, you were one of the people that was on talking about it, elliot. i mean, the reality is -- right -- you have to think like donald trump and the way he thinks is corrupt. mitt romney saying unprecedented. think like us, elliot. what did you see coming down the pike next? so you have to do and we've said

it from the beginning -- i think malcolm and i -- you have to use your lurid imagination, as anthony said, what an american president would do. give us your speculation. >> you don't need a flux capacitor to remember not two weeks ago that donald trump or bill barr was busy trying to hire the head of the fdny in the press. and jeffrey kick and scream to get his deputy appointed to that post as opposed to donald trump's hand picked golf buddy. why? was that happening? we are thinking, oh, joy, i don't know. it's because, i believe, sdny has ongoing investigations into donald trump, into his corrupt family, into his corrupt businesses. that will be coming the minute he's no longer clothed in american military power. the way i link up not the stone thing but the other big legal news this week, the fact that

supreme court said that cy vance's subpoena can go forward that portends to me additional legal, umm, umm, umm, umm, exposure for donald trump in 2021, should he lose in november. so i think the law is coming for trump but he has to lose. you have to beat him in november for us to have laws. >> yeah. yeah. and very quickly, joe, i know you had a piece back in february. you said when trump pardons stone looking forward, when trump pardons stone, manfred, and others implicated in the scandal. if clinton was subject to possible prosecution, trump should be too. you're look at this from a journalist point of view. >> i wish i was optimistic as my friend anthony. it's likely we'll see some kind of october surprise produce bid

bill barr. indictments or attempted prosecutions from people from the past administration in order to further the narrative of obama-gate. it's a desperate move. i think it would be bad on barr. it might cause him deep trouble in the future. but, you know, they're in a bad place right now. they don't have a lot of moves left. and that might be worth it. and it concerns me a lot. >> yeah. i think everybody has a right to be concerned. thank you very much. anthony will be back in our next hour. coming up, even trump's hand-picked supreme court justices agree he's not above the law. whoops! that's next. not above the law. whoops that's next.

obviously we are disappointed in the decision to the extent it did not accept our argument, the government's argument about the extent of the president's immunity but as a

practical matter the decision made clear that the president is just not at mercy of litigants and investigators and there are protections and defenses that can be raised. >> the same william barr who smugly said history is written by the winners. is learning it's harder to out to the scales of justice outside the doj. in a stunning defeat for trump and his hand of the king, the supreme court ruled on thursday that trump is not immune from criminal prosecution. he has no absolute immunity. the decision allows manhattan district attorney cyrus vance to subpoena almost a decade worth of trump's tax returns as part of a probe to hush money paid to stormy daniels. hush money that landed trump's attorney in prison. the lower court judge scheduled a hearing for next week on moving the case forward. joining me now is david k.

johnston. and columnist for "the "daily beast." i think recovering lawyer. we'll use your expertise in there, too. you're not just a funny guy. you're a lawyer. ellie just on wrote that the ruling means trump's criminality will be revealed someday. david, what might be found? you know, donald trump had he never run for president, would have gotten away with massive tax evasions. whatever he's doing. now he runs for president, he risks having it exposed. what do you think might be out there? >> well, donald trump has already had two income tax fraud trials by the state of new york and the city of new york. they were civil fraud. not criminal fraud. the "new york times" in october

of 2008 in this brilliant project on trump's taxes based on records we know came from his niece -- without question he and his, siblings are major league tax cheats. what the district attorney is seeking is the business records, the accounting records, the banking records to 2011. it's not just about stormy daniels and karen mac dougall. if those deviate from what donald trump put on the tax returns, i expect they'll indict donald trump for criminal tax fraud. how quickly it comes depends on how successful trump's lawyers are in delaying and using procedure and interlock appeals if they don't like the federal judge overseeing the case -- his rulings. >> so, i mean, just to clarify, you know, donald trump's immunity from prosecution it ends on january 20, 2021, if he

doesn't win. even if the biden -- let's say biden wins and he has an administration and he's averse to the idea of prosecuting a former president. it doesn't have anything to do with vance. >> right. let's assume donald trump has the audacity to resign as president, mike pence sworn in, and pence pardon himself. trump can't pardon himself. supreme court would not let it stand. the state charges are completely different. the only involvement in the federal government is challenging to seek his remedies in federal court. the judge in that case indicated he wants to operate with speed that is coming thursday on the procedure issues the supreme court sent down for further

review. >> right. >> donald trump is going to be indicted if the business records do not match up. they won't match up. trust me. i have a lot of his records. they won't match up. >> wow. it could be. >> here is the other piece of the scandal, donald trump corrupted so much of the government. it's hard to keep track. this is about the ousted u.s. attorney who investigated donald trump's associates. this is mr. berman who said that william barr pushed him to resign and take another job. he said it in a statement. the attorney general said if i did not resign from my position, i would be fired. he added that getting fired from my job would not be good for my résume or future job prospects. i told him while i didn't want to get fired, i would not resign. and i want to also let you listen to congressman nadler talking about the b-word. bribery this week. >> the attorney general

repeatedly attempted to entice mr. berman to step down voluntarily. even after berman made clear that his leaving would disrupt certain sensitive cases. we don't know yet if the attorney general's conduct is criminal, but that kind of quid pro quo gets awfully close to bribery. >> right. tremendousson, bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors. ellie couldn't foresee it. could you foresee a second impeachment based on potential bribery or an impeachment of william barr? >> first of all, "joy," can i say congratulations on your new show? it's so amazing. it's going to be wildly popular. secondly, i talked to numerous members of congress on my radio show. none of them have the appetite for impeachment again. i have to be honest with you.

they don't do it we're going to impeach donald trump and remove him. january 20th, he gets removed and that's the key to this. joy about the case you were discussing with david, we had the supreme court decide on thursday donald trump is not a king. despite his lawyers arguing that. literally arguing he's immunity what does donald trump do the next night? undermines our criminal justice system by exonerating roger stone who was convicted of 7 felons by a jury. so donald trump has learned no lesson from any of this. roger thinks he's the king. he's a danger to our republic. trump and bill barr are dangerous combination.

i listened to anthony think like trump. i'm sorry i'm not a sociopath. i can't. donald trump uses any means and that means bill barr investigating joe biden and potentially charging him or indicting him, if he can. we have to be ready for that. >> yeah. well, let me ask you this quickly before i let you go. you talked to a lot of people on your radio show. you happened to get a lot of calls. you know, from the fact the two supreme court justices who donald trump put on the court ruled against him on these tax matters, even if they just told congress you have to rewrite it. you have to tweak the way you're making these requests. they didn't say they can't and they certainly opened the door for vance to have them. does that undercut donald trump's argument with some of his base? how do they justify that or are

they sold because they got a contraceptive give me. there's a do something good, do something horrible thing. are they sold by that alone? >> i don't think trump's base is going to move much on supreme court decisions. frankly, us not getting the tax returns before election day is not going to move many people. i don't think there's people going i'm torn on donald trump. if i had the tax returns, i could know which way i'm going to vote. that's not happening. [ laughter ] no one is going if i just had the financial documents i could finally make the one decision. >> that would do it. [ laughter ] but the fact that kavanaugh did it against trump gives me more confidence. if trump says it's rigged, i got to stay in power, they won't -- >> yeah. and, you know, if he somehow managed to get back in, it's not as if his life in the next administration would be good because the investigations would begin immediately.

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welcome back. well, today donald trump is supposed to have another campaign rally. this one in new hampshire. his campaign postponed the event citing weather concerns. just a reminder, only 6200 people showed up to his big rally in tulsa. the day after juneteenth. i know it may be surprising to hear, since i'm not a weather expert or a weather reporter, but donald trump's rally was supposed to start at 8:00 p.m. roughly eight hours after the rain is forecasted to stop around noon. the forecast for 8:00 p.m.? 75

degrees and bright and sunny. so even though donald trump is probably nervous about the size of the rally given the success of his empty stadiums, trump seems to be employing the strategy from the 1980s. ♪ ♪ whatever you do don't put the weight on you ♪ ♪ n you ♪ ♪

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the danger is if our politics the danger is if our politic

. as a culture, when you compare us to other countries, i don't think you can say we're doing great. i mean, we're just not >>well, if that's not the understatement of the week, dr. fauci's tone is strikingly different from donald trump's who maintains that everything is just fine. maybe because he hasn't talk about to fauci in more two months. the united states hits records and milestone after milestone. on friday the country surpassed 70,000 new cases in a single day. a new record. hospitalizations are up and icus are reaching capacity in multiple states. trump's response? attack the one member of his administration who people actually trust >>well, first of all, the mortality rate and dr. fauci is a nice man but he made a lot of mistakes. we are testing and creating. it's the greatest thing that ever happened for the opposite party but we're doing something that nobody has ever done to the extent and we're doing a great job.

the testing is just showing up all these cases. if you turn the news on, you'll see it's always going to cases. they don't talk about deaths. deaths are way down. they talk about cases all the time cases. those cases get better and most cases almost, i mean, literally in most cases they automatically cure. they automatically get better. >> joining me now is dr. rob davidson. executive direct for are the committee to protect medicare. and dr. bernard ashby. thank you for being here. it's just unbelievable. i want to start with you, dr. ashby. i understand you're on break now. your hospital is nearing or over capacity. when you hear donald trump complain that the media won't stop talking about this pandemic and that they don't talk about deaths. we talk about deaths. more deaths right now than died fighting world war i.

134,000 and counting. how does that hit you as somebody who is in the middle of this and whose hospital is facing this firsthand? >> umm, thank you for having me, first of all, joy. i appreciate it but, you know, this is disturbing. you know, this time a few months ago when new york was going through their surge, cuomo was in disaster mode when dealing with his state. now florida has a rapid increase in the amount of virus spread. the hospitalization rate has increased over 75%. the icu utilization rate increased by 88%. deaths are increasing for the first time in a long time. we're averaging about 56 deaths a day. so, yes, we've gotten better at treating the virus but currently we're in a state of emergency. like we are in the midst of a hurricane. so when you're going through something like that as a state, you expect your leaders to act

accordingly. that's not the case. it's disappointing. >> it is. and, dr. davidson, hospital beds are reaching capacity in multiple states. according to u.s. news, mississippi's five largest hospitals are out of icu beds. georgia covid cases surge fewer icu beds are available. and miami, my former station, miami-dade icu beds hit 90% capacity as daily covid cases positivity reaches 33%. when you have a third of people being tested test positive, this is an emergency. i've seen the term free fall used to describe where the united states is now. is there anything that can be done about that if the national leadership and some state governors refuse to do anything about it? >> well, you know, citizens can wear masks, citizens can do everything that, you know, the

experts are telling them but we need national leadership and it's just so incredibly cruel that the president only talks about deaths. now mind you deaths do lag hospitalizations and icu hospitalizations by several weeks. people can lament on a ventilator on high-flow oxygen for a long time before they succumb to the virus. but even that notwithstanding we are better at reading it. we know about putting people on their bellies when they can't get oxygen. people are suffering. people who don't get hospit hospitalized are suffered for fatigue for weeks and missing work. when the president only focuses on deaths, it exhibits some kind of -- i don't know we've seen at a national level and it's hurting our ability to do it right >>well, and the deaths are disturbing. the number of people who died from this, you think about ebola, which donald trump attacked president obama before and three people died of ebola

in the united states. we're now talking about 134,000. there's reporting that according to the world health organization, they've acknowledged that coronavirus can linger in the air. what -- that scares -- that's terrifying. do masks help if it's in the air? i mean, i know they, obviously, do something. if it's in the air, how much more dangerous is this than we thought? >> well, i think it's something that health care workers recognized early on when they weren't wearing ppe and people were succumbing to the virus and 300 health care workers died in this country and that first part of the first wave. we can do something about it by people wearing masks they're indoors. they limit the amount of virus they can potentially spread. we know in half of transmission is in asymptomatic individuals. of course we can do something. we can limit indoor activities like restaurants and bars and we

can very carefully tread our way into opening up schools this fall by having testing and contact tracing and spacing and masks unlike what the president wants to do. he wants to do schools just like he did reopening. we're seeing the effects of that in places like florida. >> yeah. and, you know, dr. ashby, because you're in miami, not too far from where my kids would have been going to school had we still live there had and they were several years younger, this scares me. this idea of reopening schools and the governor of florida has been insistent it's something that should be done. donald trump reportedly wants this for his re-election. this is what the "daily beast" reports. they're doing this for politics. and we already know there are cases of people who don't believe that coronavirus is

real. not being safe from it because they don't believe. there's a man in ohio who in april posted on facebook he would not wear a mask. he thought it was bs. he thought it was overhyped. in an unlikely turn of events, he died three months later. so covid-19 doesn't care if you don't believe if it. how worried are you about florida reopening schools? >> so, to be clear, the 2020 -- when it comes to the coronavirus. straight up. i mean, basically anybody who thinks they know anything about anything has come out and basically gave -- given their expertise, you know, they're not listening to the professionals. and that's what is going on with our leadership. the data does show that children don't get as sick. they don't spread it as readily. so it's very promising.

so the health care professionals do agree that we do want kids to return to school. we're all on the same page here. the question is how. i don't trust the leadership on the how. they have failed us time and time again. at the end of the day, like, we're the health care professionals and, i mean, the politicians who don't know the sciences need to stay in their lane. the health care professionals need to lead and stop stepping on us and smothering us when we're trying to explain things that make perfect sense from another stand point. we let the data dictate our policies and not the other way around. >> yeah. that is wise words. and we hope that potentially someone will listen. particularly your governor down there. he's something else. thank you so much. thank you both. please be safe out there. we appreciate what you are doing. thank you. more after the break. thank you. more after the break

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coming up at top of the hour, while joe biden preechacha back to basics and wearing a mask, donald trump seems to be spiraling. really spiraling. we will discuss the unraveling.

he took the train four hours

every day so he could have breakfast with his boys in the morning and tuck them in at night. people in washington didn't get why joe biden would travel all that way. but in neighborhoods all over this country, there's no distance parents won't go for their kids. never underestimate the power of family. or the sacrifices people will make for their children. >> welcome back to "am joy." joe biden is portraying himself as a champion of family values in a changing america while donald trump's latest ad reveals how he feels about our nation. [ phone call ] >> you've reached the 911 police emergency line. due to defunding of the police department, we're sorry, but no one is here to take your call. if you're calling to report a rape, please press one. to report a murder, press two. to report a home invasion, press three. for all other crimes, leave your

name and number and someone will get back to you. our estimated wait time is currently five days. good-bye. >> i'm donald j. trump and i approve this message. >> trump's america is one of doom and gloom, a crime-ridden scape, in desperate need of his dangerous authoritarian streak. it takes the focus off his current line, it's his health scape. his poll numbers are in a freefall. maybe he's trying to escape the glafr h glare of his niece, mary trump's, new book, like donald trump's father, fred, was abusive and helped to instill in him his very worst qualities or perhaps he's simply trying to ignore how supreme court ruled that congress can subpoena his tax returns. what's going through donald

trump's head? joining me now, kwame jackson, apprentice runner-up, barbara redd, author of "all alone on the 68th floor." randall pinket, season four winner of "the apprentice" and "black faces in white places," anthony scaramucci and author of "it's even worse than you may think. i'm go in the same order i introduced you. kwame, when you were on "the apprentice" with him, we know who donald trump is. he has never been this openly erratic. and the way he is behaving now, it looks a bit desperate to a lot of people.

what's it look like to you? >> joy, congratulations on your ascension to the prime time slot. we're very proud of what you've done to elevate all the voices in regards to, you see it, randall, and commentary around trump. to me, this is all about a master class in presidential privilege and petulance. presidential privilege and petulance. you see someone who is taking the topics of coronavirus, racial reckoning in america and looking at them through those two prisms. there's a shakespearean meltdown that's happening through those two lenses, petulance, the what about-ism, just like you see a 2-year-old or 5-year-old blame the other kid for what actually just happened. and you see this continual

reference to privilege that you see in the roger stone commutation of the sentence, that no one is wrong or ever does anything wrong against the system but me. you see this continued privilege of black lives matters being painted in front of trump tower, saying this say terrorist organization, hate speech. so much goes through those two lenses that continues to resonate around how trump views the world and how he reacts. >> yeah. it is strange. he also does a lot of projection, barbara. donald trump has been trying to, and he and his campaign have been trying to imply there's something cognitively wrong with joe biden to the point that a fox news reporter, at one point, directly asked joe biden, which no one has. no one in the mainstream media has dared really to ask donald trump about his cognitive abilities, but donald trump's friendly media is asking that of joe biden. here is what donald trump said

about his own cognitive test that he claims he took. >> i actually took one when i -- very recently, when i was -- you know, the radical left was saying, is he all there? is he all there? i prove identity was all there. i aced the test. i took it at walter reed medical center in front of doctors and they were very surprised. they said that's an unbelievable thing. rarely does anybody do what you just did. >> we know his -- first of all, it's not an s.a.t. that you can have somebody else take for you, like he apparently did with his s.a.t.s. and it's no -- they don't score tests. i don't know what he's even talking about. what do you make of that weird thing he's doing right now, barbara? >> i think it's more of the same, you know, what we've seen from him. he has to be the best, and he has to always win, and no doctor is going to say you're better than anyone else.

this is nonsense. he made the whole thing up. there's no doubt in my mind about that. as to projection, always the very best. and who knows if it's remotely true, that he even took a test. who knows? >> yeah. you know, randall, you've also talked a lot about, you know, who you discovered that this person was, having participated in "the apprentice" i want to play you a little bit of howard stern, donald trump with howard stern. this was in 2005, musing about an idea that he had for "the apresentition." take a listen. >> it would be nine blacks against nine whites, all highly educated, very smart, strong, beautiful people. it would be the highest-rated show on television. i think that it would be handled very beautifully by me. >> right. >> because, as you know, i'm very diplomatic. i also think you would have 35 million people a night watching. >> notably, this was at a point

where "the apprentice" ratings were down and using racism, pitting the races against each other would be a way to get excitement going and get more ratings. he does seem to go to racism as a fallback, as a way to try to revive himself and revive whatever product he's selling. is that why you think he has decided to go full confederacy, you know, an techltbetebellum s president? do you think he thinks he's losing and this is a way to bring it back? >> yeah. i think donald is searching for a life raft. and given his blind spots when it comes to matters of race, and you look at those that he has surrounded himself with, who only further reflect those blind spots, he's in a very precarious situation where someone is looking to unite us and a voice

on race and racism, and that is the complete opposite of what donald's experience, his perspective would allow him to even find a voice within. so, what does he do? he leans into what he knows. what he knows is his base, and his base is responsive to race, to racism, to divisiveness. but i'll tell you this. that has become an achilles heel in this moment, and the polls are showing it. if you are not able to speak to these matters right now, you are obviously not speaking to what america is wanting and needing, and that's part of the reason -- not all of the reason, but part of the reason his numbers are dropping. >> yeah. anthony, you were in charge, for a brief time, but for communications from this white house, and it does seem that trump is going there because that's where he thinks he has to go. 92% of african-americans, not surprisingly, disapprove of donald trump's handling of race.

but even 57% of white americans disapprove of his handling of race relations. there's a lot of white marchers out there, marching for black lives matter. has he miscalculated and misread white people, at least the majority of them, in this moment? >> well, i hope he has, but let's go back to that ad that you just showed about defunding the police. he's trying to let people know that defunding the police means elimination of the police, which we all know clearly it doesn't mean. the strategy, joy, he got 62% of the white vote last time. he needs 7% or 8% increase in voter participation from his base to be competitive in those swing states. so he has to go full-on racism, full-on racist, nativist tropes and you'll see more ugly, disparaging ads like that. there's nothing unifying coming. it's going to get darker and darker. what he's hoping to do is it will compel people to be fearful

and vote for him because he will be the, quote, unquote, protector in the cultural war that's going on in this society. we have to convince those people he's just going to make things worse and they can live a great life under a biden administration, he is a false prophet and false promise. that is the move. he will go way uglier than he is right now. >> david, it does strike me, you've said this before, that the republican party is morphing into the nationalist party in south africa, we'll defend white america's privileges, but you have to be really afraid that the black people are coming for you. you have to stick with us and stay with the team. it's a strategy. a lot of truth coming out with donald trump. running for president and the way he has been president has prompted his own family member to come out, mary trump, his niece. nbc news has a piece called "sociopath, clown, eight

unflattering anecdotes from mary trump's book." the only reason donald escaped the same fate as her father freddy is that his personality served his father's purpose. that's what sociopaths do. they co-opt others and use them toward their own ends, ruthlessly and efficiently, with no . >> i've called him a sociopath for years. the trump household was not a home of love. any way you could get money, lie, cheat, steal or bribe, as long as you didn't get arrested, that was just great with fred trump. mary trump has given us the insights from someone who was there and could tell about specific anecdotes, is part of the family and also is a clinical psychologist with a

doctoral degree. so she can bring her professional judgment to this. this book, which you can see i've marked up a great deal, will be published tuesday. i really think it is an important book for people to read, to understand how did someone as mentally ill, as incompetent and not smart as donald trump -- somebody who brags he can remember five words and identify drawings of giraffes and elephants, become president? it's a story of bullying, of institutions protecting him and the failures of law enforcement to do their job. >> yeah. i mean, randall, you know, it is ironic that he did a show in which people like yourself, you know, and kwame were competing to work with him, any of you were better business on monday than he has been all year. it's always been a lie. having dealt with him, how much is he going to react -- how much is mary trump's book going to

unravel him, in your mind? >> i think it's going to continue the unraveling that we've seen. and the people often called donald the reality tv president. i call him the sir reality tv president. he constantly is looking for ways to make up or deny the realities that lie before him, whether it's the reality of covid, whether it's the reality of the low turnout for his rallies or overflow area that had no overflow. i think her book will add another dagger right into donald's heart. she talks about him being raised in an environment where lying was a way of life, and bullying was acceptable. these are truths that we see in donald's behavior in the white house. it's another knock against donald among many knocks that we've seen from others. >> yeah. same question to you, kwame. what do you expect to see out of him in the next 116 days? >> yeah. i think for me, this is another

deep dive into that petulance channel. if you essentially think about mary trump's book, touching on his childhood antics, to talk about things that his brother made him feel uncomfortable, the shame of fred trump and the alcoholism, the fact that no one went to the hospital or the funeral to support him. all of those things have noodled and dug deep in donald trump over the years and so that p petulance channel is so deep for donald trump, it creates the psychosis that mary trump illuminates for all of us. those personal stories and personal daggers into donald trump's heart are going to continue to drag him deeper into darkness and create that multi-head dragon we've seen in response to covid, racial reckon i ing, 2020 election, and so forth. >> yeah. and, you know, barbara, the other revelation -- there's the mary trump revelations, which will be personally humiliating to donald trump, but then there's the tax revelations,

right? vance is on a mission to subpoena his tax returns. what do you think might be hidden in there? do you have any speculation on what it is that he's hiding? he really has been guarding his tax returns with his very life all of this time. >> well, it is speculation. i'll say that to begin with. but i think probably there's a problem with underreporting and tax deductions and things like that. i think maybe there's some evasion in those returns that maybe would not be picked up when his team of lawyers sits with the irs people that they work with, but you let "the new york times" go after it like they did in the 2018 article, and we'll see some wrongdoing, i think. there's probably something he's fraiz afraid of. >> yeah. and, david, i assume you agree

with that. >> oh, i think that "the new york times" project, which they were gracious in acknowledging that it was based on my work of donald trump's taxes. i have been a judge of ire contests and others. it was absolutely flawless on matters of tax policy, accounting and it was just incredibly brilliant and flat out, donald and his siblings are serial tax cheats. do not beat around the bush. it ended in 2001. that's when the records mary trump got from donald trump stopped. >> yeah. >> that the times got ahold of. >> right. that the times got. unless you're a fan of his, i think everyone has acknowledged we know what he is but people are still perplexed, anthony, by

the republicans. the republican party can see the headlines we do. they sneak and read "the new york times" and see what's in "the washington post." they're not running away. they're slinking away sometimes, being quiet, some of them don't talk. they don't give interviews on shows like this. what do they think is going to happen to them after donald trump is gone, after he has pardoned all of his friends and walked away and slinked out of the white house? what is it that republicans think they're going to be or still be able to do post trump? >> well, consultants are telling them that the american people have a very short attention span, but what's really going on is what john kennedy said. they said to president kennedy, you wrote three books. why was profiles in courage so thin? he looked at them and said there's no courage out there. he could only identify 10 or 12 senators that broke from the pack and did something patriotic based on principles. what you're seeing right now is

one american senator, governor mitt romney or senator mitt romney who is willing to take the stand. ted cruz, give me a break. he can't defend his wife against president trump. when the president went after my wi wife, i'm a new yorker, from long island, it was game over. if he's a prize fighter, collectively, we're going to punch him right through the ropes. we've got 118 days. you don't go after people's wives. you don't act like a despicable freak from the office of the presidency. somebody like ted cruz, it's the opposite of "profiles of courage." >> all of them. lindsey graham was humiliated by trump and he's like yes, so, marco rubio. and he's like yes, sir. that's what they chose to do. kwame jackson, barbara res,

randall pinkett, anthony scara muchlt mucci, david cay johnston, thank you. hot summer reading tips is next. hot summer reading tips is next event. lease the 2020 nx 300 for $339 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. mornings were made expefor better things than rheumatoid arthritis. when considering another treatment,

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so, you're basically forcing universities to reopen, even if they have personally determined that they shouldn't be doing that for public health reasons? >> we're not forcing universities to reopen. however, if a university -- let's just take your version of it. if they don't reopen this semester, there isn't a reason for a person holding a student visa to be present in the country. they should go home, and then they can return when the school opens. >> once again, when it comes to donald trump, the cruelty is the point. the latest? the trump administration wants to force international students -- yes, they're forcing them -- to literally risk their lives in order to educate

themselves, even though their full-fare tuitions are often paying the bills at universities. the administration seems to be telling students, fine, fine, you want to learn? then you will learn in person and be on campus this fall, risking covid-19, or you'll risk deportation if the school goes online. author of the great new book "separated: inside an american tragedy," and also tiffany cross, "say it louder" two really great books which, hold on -- i'll show them again. two really great books. i want to talk to you both. congratulations to both of you on the books. we want both to be "new york times" best sellers. let's talk about this forcing students out. harvard and m.i.t. have sued the trump administration to try to protect the student visas. they're escalating this war over online learning.

harvard and massachusetts institute of technology have sued the trump administration. they decided the only in-person classes will be freshman and everyone else will be online. they're saying, you can't force us. i'll start with you, tiffany, and then jacob. it is an attempt to try to use this xenophobia card to force students. it doesn't make sense to me, but does it make sense to you? >> i think this is more red meat he's throwing to his cult-like following that he desperately needs this november. i want to remind people, as we're in this landscape, navigating covid-19 and he's using this as an opportunity to perpetuate the xenophobia with this anti-immigration attitude, let's revisit the story of melania trump. when she came to this country under mysterious circumstances, she was granted the einstein visa, reserved for people who have some marvel achievement,

some accomplishment. now i googled melania trump. there are some salacious imagetory of her out there. no republican has been ever able to answer the question, what was her unique skill that she was able to leapfrog over actual geniuses and land in this country? let's revisit chain migration, that trump administration hates so much. that's how melania's parents are making their way to this country. i can imagine the outrage the maga community feels for this, right? not at all. they paint her to be someone she is blatantly not. they aid in his effort. i think it's a spectacle for someone who has more patriotism than people who would help elect someone who is proven to be

cloo colluding with foreign adversaries. you read the mueller report, there's clear evidence there that something is afoot. i think it's ridiculous ll lly hypocrital that this administration would in the most cruelest way, deny students. most of these students haven't been in their country forever. some of them have only gone two weeks at a time since they were children. this is awful, as we see on one hand. on the other hand looking at melania trump parade around in the white house with jackets that say "i really don't care." >> she is a birther. that is apparently a skill that can help in this administration. jacob, you reported so well on immigration issues. when you talk about, you know, all the other things that are problematic in terms of the xenophobic immigration policies, covid is now placing a clear and present danger to immigrants.

times and san diego report say migrants would rather safe deport than face covid. an asylum seeker fled to the united states after an unknown gunm gunman, decided to drop her case after the outbreak in arizona. if you have migrants who are scared of self deporting in fear of getting sick, students would feel the same, right? >> if your choices were sign papers to say i'm going to deport to get out of this place, where i might die, or go to a place where i might die in one of the most dangerous cities along the southern border in the united states. that's a choice we are presenting as a country to our migrants. pause for one second. we cannot go further without

congratulating you on the move to 7:00. i'm so excited we'll be talking about these issues on readout in a couple of weeks. and what you played, joy, made me think about at the beginning of this segment, where this all comes from. of course. ken cuccinelli, who was talking to brianna, said to me directly on twitter a couple of weeks at the border wall that policies that put migrants into dangerous and deadly places were, quote, unquote, effective. that is the underlying philosophy, way of thinking in this administration. it was back in the separation policy. it still is today, which is why i wanted to write the book. that has not gone away. it feels like a long time ago, this torture in the words for physician for human rights happened in 2019, seems like it may have been in the distant past but it's arguably worse today than it was back then. >> still giving the people the

choice, quote, to agree to go back home or be deported. they're still separating people. let's talk about the idea how this stuff is covered. newsroom diversity is so important. caesar kondi, now our boss here at nbc universal, has said he's 50/50 diversity is what's needed to make newsrooms more fair. tiffany you wrote in "say it louder," if a free press is to be a guardian of a representative government, then newsrooms should be representative and it blatantly is not. those who work as reporters, editors, photographers and videographers in the newspaper, broadcasting and internet publishing are white. a census comes out every year. diversity of newsrooms is not really diverse. that is the racial breakdown. 82.42% white, 6.4% black.

how do news organizations change that? it's difficult now to report on stories like black lives matter without having enough people in the newsroom have a critical mass. not everyone is as incredible of jacob soboroff, who goes way out of his way to report on these communities. how do we do it? >> to the first black woman to host a prime time show in cable news and currently the only one hosting a prime time show on cable news, you do it by putting people like joy reid in a position to be out front for people to see. i'm happy for you, but i'm also making a serious point. when it was announced you were going to be the first black woman in this position, people who don't know you, people who never met you, journalists from all over -- i worked in journalism and news in 20 years. people i haven't heard from forever were tweeting me, texting me, as though it was our accomplishment, as though we all made it. that is oh, so important.

it's not just the diversity in front of the camera. you need diverse voices in editorial decision-making power. for caesar konde to say half our newsroom across the board will be diverse, that's innovative. right now you have a cable news landscape that's appealing to their audience and the audience's average age is 60 some year old white men. they're going to look for a place to consume news and this can be that place. kudos to him for being ahead of the curve on this. >> i want to hold up these two books here i have both of these books. they are both incredible. i already read separated and read jacob's book, phenomenal, his story of having to have gone through and really gone all the way out of his own personal comfort zone to report on a story that, as a parent, had to be really, really hard. i have started this incredible book "say it louder."

i got my box o books in the mail upstairs. i will give some away but will also love this book. i have to tout my friends. you guys are amazing journalists. thank you for being here in the world. >> love you, joy. congratulations. >> love you. congrats. >> thank you. two "new york times" best sellers. thank you. i've spoken it into existence. more "am joy" after the break. .

coronavirus cases in florida continue to sore as governor ron desantis is pushing state to reopen. if walmart can do it, why not schools? that's his actual argument. that's next. schools? that's his actual argument that's next. ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat i waited to get treated.

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the risk, fortunately, for kids, is extremely, extremely low. i'm confident if you can do home depot, if you can do walmart, if you can do these things, we absolutely can do the schools. >> wow! as covid-19 cases sky rocket in florida, governor ron desantis, as always, is taking his cues from donald trump and pushing for kids to return to school on schedule. never mind that florida has become one of the worst coronavirus hot spots in the country and an additional 11,443 cases in 24 hours on friday. the second highest single-day jump since the start of this

pandemic. meanwhile, donald trump travelled to florida on friday, not to discuss the alarming surge in cases, but to attend an anti-drug trafficking briefing and a fund-raiser for his presidential campaign as if everything was perfectly normal. as he did that, the total number of coronavirus cases in florida surpassed 254,000 with more than 4,000 deaths. joining me now is democratic pollster, host of the podcast strange days and florida congressman charlie crist who has previously served as florida's governor and education commissioner. i'll go with you, congressman crist, first. good morning to you. there's a chart i want to put up on the screen. good morning. hopefully you can see it, showing the rise in covid-19 cases in florida, from march to july. you can see it spiking up and up and up. what's happening with florida right now "the new york times" has described it as like a bus accident a day, florida

struggling with one of the worst outbreaks in the country, along with texas, arizona, and california. as somebody who was in charge of the schools and education in florida, do you feel comfortable with a bus accident a day rise in cases for kids to go back to school? >> of course not. i mean, that's absurd. what we have to do, we have to be smart, joy. we have to be could gnizant of trends and numbers. neither is good in florida right now. 11,400 new cases yesterday, in one day. that's shocking. and as a floridian it breaks my heart and is very disturbing. we're talking about students going back to school in about a month, august 12th. that's not very far away at all. what i think is the right approach is not what the governor is advocating, but what local school boards are advocating.

i'm in st. peters burg, florida. the school board came out with a thoughtful plan, providing the option of getting online education, but also the option, if done safely, to be able to go to the classroom itself, with less students there. obviously, the appropriate social distancing, the wearing of masks. you know, the things that would be smart, necessary and important to do and exercise in order to do rule number one. keep our children safe. along with the teaches, the parent. who cares more about the well-being of the child than the parents themselves? ultimately i think that's where the decision needs to be, utilizing common sense, taking in the scientific evidence we have, listening to physicians like you've had on the show this morning morning, dr. abby from miami, talking about the fact that people want their children to be able to go back to school but only if things are safe and it's done right.

this should not be a rush. this is not a political statement. this is about the lives of our children and our schools throughout florida and the country, for that matter. and so these decisions have to be made prudently, wisely, and with good, informed judgment from scientific people, from medical professionals, health care professionals that understand this more than anybody. i'm a public servant. and it's a job of a public servant to be a good listener, and to digest the information that you're given. god has given us two ears and one mouth. i say it all the time. it's important to listen twice as much as you speak and do what's right after you take in all that information and deliver it in a way that is safe, smart and prudent. >> and the question, you know, is whether or not ron desantis is doing that, right? there's a sentinel piece where he has decided he's smarter than anthony fauci. a day after the top infectious

disease experts said florida rushed its reopening, he defended the decision. the second highest of the pandemic could have been worse if it weren't for the actions the administration has taken thus far. i believe they're reopening disney world now. he has reopened beaches. he has allowed reopenings all over the state, and apparently he thinks he knows more than dr. fauci. you are a parent in south florida. do you feel comfortable sending your children back to school in florida? >> absolutely not, joy. and greetings from what is now officially the planet's second largest epicenter for outbreak of the coronavirus, the state of florida. what we wouldn't give to have charlie crist still be our governor. let's look at the facts here. when the virus first hit the sunshine state here in march, april and may, governor desantis

had to be kicking and screaming to issue a state-wide stay-at-home order, which he finally did. classes in schools were canceled because of the concerns about the rising numbers of cases and we are today, joy, in a much worse situation, based on the numbers of the new cases and deaths than we were back then, yet very cavalierly, this governor, who is, as you said, sycophant of donald trump, doing things to appease donald trump, has decided not only that we need to reopen the state, but his education commissioner richard corcoran, has given a directive to open schools in spite of the fact that the coronavirus is indefinitely worse in florida than it was in march through may. at the national level, this responsibility falls under the disastrous leadership of president trump. but we have to recognize that here in florida, here in our state of florida, where every

day we are broaching now in excess of 10,000 new cases, the buck for this disastrous response, starts and stops at the desk of governor desantis, who floridians are now starting to go by the name of governor disastrous, because of this disastrous response that is now putting people's lives at risk. >> yeah. we are out of time but to give you the final word on this, governor crist, i still call you governor crist, you are a case in point, that you face a lot of political risks when you stand up to a president of your own party. the republican party seems to be very nonforgiving of that, but you're also proof you can have a second life after that. you're still a public servant. can you give, very quickly, the current governor a word of advice? you stood up to the bush administration on opening, holding open polls. they didn't like it, on taking stimulus money.

they didn't like it. you survived. can you give them some advice? >> yeah. be guided by doing the right thing. you've got to let politics go at some point and understand that when you get elected to office, high office as governor of florida, that your responsibility is to the people. you know, when i got elected as a republican, i wasn't elected as the governor for the republican republicans of florida. i was elected as governor for the people of florida. and you need to govern that way and be guided by god, your instincts and your heart and your soul and know what's right. you do unto others as they would have done unto you. it's called the golden rule. it's that important. that's what you need to have as your north star, as your guide. i think it's important, vitally important, life or death. >> i hope that he maybe will listen. fernand aymmandi, charlie crist

be safe in florida. the president's decision to commute stone's sentence. first there is more "am joy" after the break. t there is more" after the break. to build unlimited right.

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this is unlimited built right. only on verizon. there is no place in the league. there's no place in the wnba. a league that is the majority/minority. this is a league that is 80% african-american women i think a number of players in our league have expressed that there's no place in the league for her. >> los angeles sparks forward candace parker echoed the call to oust kelly laufner after she said that politics do not belong in sports and, quote, i adamantly oppose the black lives matter political movement. does she realize that the team she owns or co-owns is in atlanta? senator loeffler, who is in a

tough re-election fight in georgia, doesn't plan on selling her stake any time soon. although she declined to join our show this morning, we did invite her, she doubled down on her stance, where else, on fox. >> wnba has embraced the black lives matter political organization. this is a very divisive organization, based on marxist principles. this week, they threatened to burn the system down, literally and figuratively if they don't get what they want. i think this is an organization that seeks to destroy american principles and i had to draw the line. >> just have to let you know, none of that is true. black lives matter is not a political organization and none of that is true. joining me now, atlanta dream card renee montgomery and one of the candidates running against loeffler in the georgia senate race. thanks for being here. hearing kelly loeffler speak

that way about black lives matter, particularly when the team that she is a co-owner of is in atlanta, a city that is so important to black america, what does that -- what is your response to it? >> my response is, you know, she talks about keeping politics out of sports but she's a u.s. senator that owns a basketball team. so, automatically, that intertwines the two. there's no way to keep politics out of sports now and in the future because they're directly affected because politics affects everyday life. us being in atlanta is a bigger hit. it's known as the city that embraces the culture. it's tough hearing it from someone that has such an influence on the team and in the basketball community. >> yeah. i mean, it is bizarre, listening to her talk about that when atlanta is so tied to dr. king, to john lewis. it is bizarre. let me go to you, reverend.

good morning to you. this is what commissioner of the wnba, a statement put out regarding her opinion. the wnba is based on the principle of equal and fair treatment of all people and we, along with the teams and players will, continue to use our platforms to vigorously advocate for social justice. senator loeffler has not served as a governor of the atlanta dream since october 2019 and is no longer involved in the day-to-day business of the team. that was their statement. you are ahead of kelly loeffler at the moment in georgia. has she misread the politics here? does she somehow not understand georgia in the 21st century? what do you make of her comments? >> good morning, joy. it's great to be here again with you. we can talk about the politics but, listen, this is much bigger than politics. this is a fight for human rights and equal protection under the law, the covenant that we have with one another as an american

people. it's ironic she's saying that the wnba should not support black lives matter, the local movement. and i think it's important that we say that people are literally dying. i looked into the eyes of his 8-year-old daughter who, earlier that day, was celebrating her birthday with her father and from now on, her birthday is connected with the day that he left this earth. so, this is really a matter of life and death. this is an inflection point in our country. the good news is that there is a multiracial coalition of conscience pouring out on to our street, doing the hard work of moral repair. kelly loeffler is playing politics. so, someone can't stand a moment like this and call us to our better angels certainly needs to be somewhere else, other than

united senate. >> lebron james is doing, et cetera. renee montgomery of the atlanta dream wrote an open letter to senator loeffler saying, quote, don't end up on the wrong side of history. do you want her to be involved further with the wnba or do you think there's something she can do to come back? >> i wonder why do you want to be involved? if the wnba goes against everything you stand for, if the wnba supports a movement you think is harmful, if the wnba has 80% minority and large percentage of the lgbtq community, why do you want to be part of it? i know she said she's not selling her stake, but why do you want to be part of something that doesn't align with your views? that would be my last word. again, i wish she would have joined us today. i would be remiss if i didn't

tell you congratulations on your new show. my parents love you. i had to get that in. >> thank you. >> but if you don't like it, don't be part of it. >> well said. thank you very much. i really appreciate that. please, thank your parents for me. really appreciate that. renee montgomery, reverend raphael warren, good luck with your campaign. , reverend raphael warren, good luck with your campaign. needles.

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at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, alex has the latest. hello, alex. >> hello, my friend. i heard there's news about you in the ether. i'm so happy, happy, happy for you. i'm so happy, happy, happy about all the record, incredible feat that this is, your accomplishments. so well deserved. but i'm so mad for me. that's all i'm going to say. because we're breaking up this dynamic duo. >> no one can ever break us up. you're my sister from another mother. and no one can break us up. we are sisters. we are family. >> i've been texting you about how bummed out i am about this for me. i'm happy for you, but i'm bummed for me. have a great day. you have so much to celebrate. so you again. thanks, dear. >> thank you. it is high noon just about here in the east.

and 9:00 a.m. in the west. sentence commuted. former trump supporter weighs in about the commuted sentence of roger stone. hospitals on the verge of running out of room and in one state, a mutation that may make the virus even more infectious. mickey mouse back to work. disney opens as cases spike in florida. is it safe? and more than 50 victims, 56, in fact, to be exact, and i'll talk with the lawyer. now the first republican lawmaker is weighing in, utah senator mitt romney, vocal critic of the president, labeling this as unprecedented, historic corruption. big word there is. josh