hello, everyone, i'm chris jansing. thank you so much for joining us on what is already a very busy saturday evening. an unusual sight we just saw a short time ago, president trump wearing a mask. it happened as he visits walter reed medical center where masks, by the way, are required. he is expected to meet with wounded soldiers as well as the health staff there that is dealing with the coronavirus pandemic. before leaving the white house,

he said that he has no problems with masks, but we of course have only seen him like this one other time in public. the move by the president comes as the u.s. had its single largest caseload increase in a single day. more than 67,000 new infections on friday. in louisiana, this announcement a short time ago from the governor. >> masks are now mandated statewide for everyone age 8 and older, unless they have a major health condition. >> the numbers of deaths are rising too. south carolina reporting its first death of a child from covid. this latest victim under the age of 5. officials are not releasing details to protect the family's privacy. and in texas, refrigerator trucks are being sent to several counties because morgues there are filling up. we're going take you live to houston this hour. despite all of that the president continues to send public messages that conflict with the fax on the ground.

>> is the united states losing the war against covid? >> no, we're winning the war. we have areas that flamed up, and they're going to be fine over a period of time. >> as a country, when you compare us to other countries, i don't think you can say we're doing great. we're just not. >> well, the president is expressing his personal concern in at least one potential covid case. his old friend roger stone. trump making his first public comments a short time ago on his decision to commute the sentence. >> what i did --ly tell you this. people are extremely happy, because in this country that. >> want justice. and roger stone was not treated properly. so i'm very happy with what i did. >> we'll have a little more of the president's remarks on stone shortly. now officially, the white house says concern over coronavirus in prison is one of the reasons behind trump's decision to commute stone's three-year-plus sentence just days before he was

set to begin serving it. the move of course outraged democrats and even trump's faithful attorney general appears to have questions about it. >> i think the prosecution was righteous, and i think the sentence that the judge ultimately gave was fair. >> there are two systems of justice now in america, one for criminal friends of the president like michael flynn and now roger stone, and one for everybody else. >> coming up, i'll get reaction from another prominent democrat, new york congressman hakeem jeffries. first to washington and josh letterman, who is at the white house for us. josh, the president had a few things to say as he headed to walter reed hospital. we just saw that he is there. tell us a little bit about what he had to say and how does today play into the administration's response to the coronavirus? >> yeah, chris, well, it took four months and almost 135,000 americans dead, but the president has finally put on a

mask in public. you can see that video there from just a few minutes ago. a very short photo opportunity at walter reed hospital as the president was making an entrance there. he is currently meeting with wounded warriors, according to an administration official. but we know up until now, the president had refused to wear this. he said that people that wanted him to wear a mask were looking to score political points, that it was partisan thing against him, that he didn't want to give the media the pleasure, in his words of seeing him in a mask. but we know the pressure has been mounting within the administration on the president to start being consistent with what the actual public health message has been from his administration, which is that people need to wear masks if we're going to slow the spread as this pandemic continues to gain steam. but even as the president finally was putting on this mask today, chris, he was deviating from what the message is on masks, saying that he is doing it because he was going into a hospital setting. but as we know, the recommendation from dr. fauci and other public health

officials is not you only need to wear a mask if you're in the hospital. you need to put on a mask any time you're going into place where you're likely to be in contact with other people who are not part of your household. and so the key question now is to see whether the president makes this a regular habit and wears a mask in other settings as well. >> we're also getting some new reporting from the white house, our white house folks there along with pete williams. and i just want to read this. attorney general barr discussed clemency for roger stone with president trump and recommended against it, according to an administration official. many white house officials were opposed to trump's decision, including chief of staff mark meadows, according to a person familiar. but before he left for walter reed, the president was defending his decision. >> that's right. he sure was. he says he is happy with what he did. he also disputed that attorney general barr had told him not to give this clemency to roger stone, even though we have barr's own words calling the

prosecution of roger stone righteous. listen to a little bit more of what trump had to say about the roger stone clemency as he spoke to kelly o'donnell at the white house just before heading to walter reed. >> roger stone was brought into this witch hunt, this whole political witch hunt and the mueller scam, it's a scam. because it's been proven false. and he was treated very unfairly. just like general flynn is treated unfairly. >> and chris, even as the president says that people are very happy with what he did, the number of critics of his move to grant this commutation have only been growing throughout the day, including members of his own party. senator mitt romney of utah calling this unprecedented hypocrisy. and now another republican, senator pat toomey also saying that the decision was a mistake. chris? >> nbc's josh letterman at the white house for us. thank you, josh, for that breaking news. now i want to bring in our experts to break down these two big stories today.

philip bump for "the washington post." and dr. vin gupta, global health policy expert and an msnbc medical contributor. great to have both of you. so philip, the editorial board of your paper called the president's move a betrayal of his office. so first, give us the big picture, the white house statement, what they're saying about why this happened. i mean, for a lot of people, this read more like a twitter rant or an airing of grievances. >> and you kind of took my lead there. i was going to say if you can imagine what donald trump would have tweeted about roger stone, that's exactly what this thing was. it is very atypical for a presidential document, particularly something of this importance where he is trying to balance the weight of giving a pardon to someone who is known to be an ally, someone even inside the statement itself is known to be a supporter of president trump. that's the sort of thing you would try and nuance and say actually there are overriding reasons here.

it was reportedly from kayleigh mcenany. it was very heavily in donald trump's own language and you heard a microcosm there in the statement before going to walter reed. it was very much a witch hunt, et cetera, et cetera. that is obviously not the case. roger stone was very much involved in this from the very start of the russia investigation because he had these self-proclaimed ties to wikileaks. but secondarily, he was on record, and there is a lot of evidence, anecdotal evidence about giving false statements to congress. if there were no mueller probe, the house investigation involved him lying to the house. so he could have been charged with a federal crime there anyway. all of this is sort of trying to get past the point that donald trump gave this commutation to someone who has been an ally of his for a long, long time. >> yeah we don't even have to wait for your fact checkers. you just laid it out for us. you also point out in your article that stone was already a

free man, and that his commutation violates standard practices. can you expand on that? >> sure. so according to the department of justice, there is a standard system that is in place at the department of justice for commutations. the reason why is because it's important to have an outside force. so past presidents, there has been a process where it goes through the department of justice. the department of justice weighs in whether or not they recommend a commutation, and there are certain standards that are met before the department of justice will actually suggest that this happen. one of those is for a commutation that the person actually has served some time of their sentence, and that they have exhausted all of their appeals. obviously the idea is you want to give preference to the justice system. so if they've gone through their appeals and their appeals haven't led to their being free, if this is a case where the person deserves to be free, let that appeals process play out. after that point, then it is recommended that the president weigh in. several steps ahead of that in

the line. >> i also, philip, want to get your thoughts on the idea that michael flynn could be next on the list to pardon. i mean, let's remind folks that michael flynn got fired. the president, though, has tweeted about it. "the wall street journal" editorial board is calling for a pardon. politico was reporting that trump allies are pushing for flynn to be back on the campaign trail for the president. what are you hearing about flynn? >> yeah, no, i think that that sort of the weather that's floating around washington at this point in time is this is something which may be in the works. i think there are a lot of reasons why one might anticipate that would happen, particularly given what has happened to roger stone. donald trump, you may recall that donald trump as one of the first he had was say he didn't say to james comey go easy on michael flynn. it is documented that he gave false statements to law enforcement individuals.

it's different. stone, the evidence is much heavier. there are more charges against stone than there were against flynn, but it is still a case that flynn multiple times admitting having given false statement to multiple investigators. i will say, though, i will be surprised to see him on the campaign trail because all it will do is constantly remind people oh, that's right, you had this national security adviser who had to eleave because he lied to the vice president and admitted having lied to investigators. it's going to be a difficult campaign so, we'll see. >> dr. gupta, let me bring you in, because the president also today in addition to roger stone talked about wearing a mask. he claimed, and i'm quoting him here, i've never been against masks, although, again, we should point out this is the first time he has allowed himself to be videotaped actually wearing a mask. i don't know. what did you think when you saw it? better late than never? >> i think he has created a

situation, chris, where he has enabled governors like governor mcmaster, governor dewine and governor santos most notably to engage in weak and feckless leadership that is harming citizens. the answer is too little too late. it's great that he is wearing it in a hospital setting where every military leader around him is wearing one him. was basically required to do it. otherwise he wouldn't have been aloud in. what happens when it's volunteer? what would he do then? we have already seen. he wouldn't wear it. it's allowing henry mcmaster in south carolina to do ridiculous things that is harming the citizens of south carolina. he, for example, is closing bars at 11:00 p.m. as though that means anything, chris. he should be closing them down permanently if you -- >> i'm sorry. since you brought up bars, i wanted to bring up what we just learned in the last hour or so from the governor of louisiana who decided that everybody over the age of 8 has to wear a mask.

and he is closing down bars after opening them, because -- and this is what he said -- that 36 outbreaks in louisiana have been tied to bars. so here we go again, dr. gupta. >> well, that's the importance of consistency here, chris. everybody wants schools reopened, and the governor of south carolina wants schools reopened, but he is going to allow bars to stay open until 11:00? it's not a shades of gray thing. it's either you shut them down or keep them open. he needs to shut them down. in ohio, governor dewine, an early leader, an early evidence-based leader in this pandemic is now saying masks are manned near a handful of counties? covid-19 does not respect county borders within one contiguous state much less the country. well need a national mandate on masks with enforcement. you don't wear a mask, you're going get a fine. it's easy enough. it just takes political will. and governor desantis in florida, how many times here he is still not calling in the national guard the build out icu

boards, but he was readily willing to do it when there was protests? it makes no sense. and walt disney world is reopening today, only because he is allowing them. to it's feckless leadership. these are the young leaders for the moment. >> are you hopeful in any way? and i ask this because, you know, we had tonight was supposed to be another of the president's rallies. he canceled it. they said they were going to give out masks as they did in tulsa, but nobody was going to be required to wear them. there are also reports, politico said that in the trump campaign office, you actually get made fun of for wearing masks or for social distancing. is there any way given those facts that we can get away from the politicization of mask wearing? >> i don't think so. unfortunately, to answer your question, am i hope willful this administration? no. i've been on the front lines just like my colleagues. we've been dealing with this day

in and day out. so we have not wanted this to be political, chris, from the very beginning, but it has been. here is what concerns me. i'm seeing peter navarro now on twitter saying that we should be authoring a second fda emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine. that is the pinnacle of politicization of this crisis. we know hydroxychloroquine, 99% of the evidence suggests it is not helpful for covid, potentially harmful. and yet one study that we think is deeply flawed out of henry ford suggests maybe there is a benefit. now he is saying the fda should revert course here. this is all politics. first masks, now schools, now we're back to hydroxychloroquine. there is no hope here for this administration. it's up to governors. >> dr. vin gupta, you're going stay with us. we have more to talk about. philip bump, always good to see you, my friend. thanks for being with us on a saturday evening. up next, democrats in congress react to the president's decision to commute roger stone's prison sentence,

but it may not end there. democratic congressman hakeem jeffries of new york will join me next to talk about why he thinks both president trump and roger stone could be indicted in the future. re sensitive. yet some say it isn't real milk. i guess those cows must actually be big dogs. sit! i said sit! if you have a garden you know, weeds are low down little scoundrels. draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield to target weeds precisely and kill them right down to the root. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. hold on one second... sure. okay... okay! safe drivers save 40%!!! guys! guys! check it out. safe drivers save 40%!!! safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! he's here.

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welcome back. when the president commuted roger stone's sentence, he intervened in a criminal case that was central to the russia investigation and the president's own conduct. stone, of course, was convicted by a jury of lying to congress, witness tampering, and obstructing the house investigation into trump's alleged collusion with russia. the white house defended trump's actions in a grievance-laden statement saying "roger stone is a victim of the russia hoax that the left and its allies in the media perpetrat pet updated for in an attempt to undermine the trump presidency." hakeem jeffriess with a very different take, tweeting this. roger stone lied to coffer up for trump.

the corrupt president just paid him back. they can all be indicted on january 21st. representative hakeem jeffries, chair of the democratic caucus joins us now. always good to see you, congressman. thanks for being here. before we jump ahead to january, look, this was certainly not unexpected, and yet when you heard it, what went through your mind? >> well, it was shocking, but not surprising. shocking because it is such a departure from any sense of decency or normalcy in the context of presidential behavior. during normal ordinary times, and chris, of course we are in extraordinary times, we've got more than 125,000 americans dead as a result of the coronavirus. more than 3 million americans and counting infected, and of course over 50 million americans unemployed, the economy in recession. and instead of trying to do something productive to deal with this extraordinary public

health and economic crisis, donald trump tweets lies, plays golf, and pardons or commutes the sentence of a corrupt friend. it is just outrageous. >> so howard fineman, the nbc analyst, spoke to stone and wrote about the conversation in "the washington post," and fineman said this is what stone told him. he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. it would have eased my situation considerably, but i didn't. they wanted me to play judas. i refused. how do you read those comments from stone? >> well, it appears that roger stone was very clear that he had incriminating information as it relates to the president's knowledge of possible coordination between his campaign and wikileaks with roger stone serving as an intermediary. because the president viewed that information either as

politically damaging or potentially criminal in nature, roger stone withheld that information and lied to congress as well as to a jury. and so the question is the one that senator leahy asked bill barr during the confirmation of the attorney general. is it lawful for a president to issue a pardon in exchange for a witness declining to provide criminal information? and the attorney general, mr. cover-up artist himself, was very clear. that would be a crime. >> is there a difference, congressman, between in that situation if he was right, between a commutation and a pardon? i mean, i guess the question is

do you believe that there is anything really that can be done about it? the president has broad powers when it comes to pardons and commutations. do you believe this was in some way illegal? >> well, that will need to be determined moving forward. at the present moment, we just need to be able to try to get as much information as we can about how this pardon was brought about. and as speaker pelosi indicated, take a look at what can be done legislatively to prevent this type of corrupt abuse of power from happening again. as you point out, chris, the presidential authority as it relates to pardons and commutations is particularly broad. it's one of the few if any holdovers from the notion of a monarchy as a government. that said, when you have somebody like trump, a wanna-be dictator with authoritarian tendencies, the normal boundaries of presidential

conduct don't apply based on custom. which is why we should take a look at what we can do to restrict this type of out-of-control behavior legislatively. >> congressman hakeem jeffriess of new york, it's good to you to come on the program on this saturday evening. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. >> and as we get closer to the start of the new school year, the debate over in school versus online is intensifying. i'm joined next by a school superintendent and a doctor to talk what can be done to keep education on track during this pandemic. migraine medicine.

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in arizona, students and educators are still reeling from the awful news that three teachers who shared a summer school remote learning classroom all tested positive for the coronavirus, and one, a beloved first grade teacher, kim byrd, died. with the start of the school year fast approaching, we want

the take a look at some of the complex decisions that have to be made. joining me now is kathy hoffman, arizona state superintendent of public instruction and msnbc medical contributor dr. vin gupta is back with us. so kathy, first of all, our sympathies go out to you, to everyone in the educational community there and certainly to the families. how shaken is the arizona educational community following the tragic death of kimberly chavez lopez byrd? >> first, thank you for your condolences. this news was devastating for our education community. unfortunately, here in arizona we are facing a severe spike in cases of covid-19. the risk of community spread is very high, and this has made it very difficult for all of us in the education community. and our hearts go out to her family. >> talk to me a little bit if you will, then, about the conversations that you're having with other staff, what they're

telling you. what are the most pressing questions and concerns as the clock is ticking towards decision time? >> so here in arizona, our school year typically starts in late july, and most schools even start by early august at the latest. and so we were planning -- trying to get ready for this next academic year. we had a road map. we had a task force of well over 100 stakeholders and educators working together to figure out how can we reopen schools. but under these current conditions, with such high risk of covid-19, our governor, governor ducey put out an executive order which delayed the start of in-person instruction until at least august 17th. and we are still in the process of even reevaluating even august 17th might be too soon because of the growing risk and unfortunately the numbers have been going in the wrong direction. and this has been devastating because we do share the goal of opening our schools, being able to serve our students. i used to work in special

education, and i know how our schools are such a lifeline for our families in so many ways. but under these circumstances, it's just not safe. >> yeah, and i don't know, dr. gupta, if we've ever had so many kids who were so desperate to get back into the classroom, but they certainly are. and look, you can make an argument we're not necessarily going at this from the starting line. we at least can see some of the experiences of other countries. some schools have imposed strict limits on contact like in denmark, where they started out with pods of four or five kids. south korean schools opened then closed but then reopened with temperature checks. they had plastic dividers, masks. in china, they paired masks with social distance hats. do any of these approaches make medical sense? what kinds of things do you think we should be looking at and prioritizing in the u.s. as we make these decisions? >> chris, this is an important question. i really sympathize with our

colleagues in arizona, because every school district, especially in hot spots like arizona and florida, texas are really wrestling with this question. i know here in seattle we're wrestling with that same question, across the west coast. here is the thing. any solution, chris, is going to require a lot of money. school districts, especially in urban dense areas need space. they need space to socially distance those tables and classrooms, to build barriers. that's going to cost a lot of money. let's just be honest with that. there is 13,000 school districts in the country. every one of them now need a retrofit and find new outdoor space, maybe city space if they can find it. so space, that's number one. can we actually get more space? that's a big question. i don't know. ventilation. we know 245 there is airborne transmission. i hate that term, but small droplet transmission where somebody coughs, even a child with covid-19, who knows if this is going to cause a spread, if a teacher is going to get

infected, if parents might get eninfected at home. we don't know. it's a giant social experience. and the example overseas is not instructive. we don't have enough data points. what we do know is we need ventilation. open windows. that's going to cost us money. and finally, testing. we spent five months talking about testing. now suddenly we're going open schools for 56 million children and we're not going to test. and you know why? it's not because people don't see the importance of it. they see the importance of it. the cdc recognizes the importance of testing. we just don't have the right testing. five to seven days for a nasal swab to come back is unacceptable. and right now we don't have the right one. that's why we're not messaging on it. >> yeah, and there is another question about will everybody be willing to teach under these circumstances. kathy, the long-time president of the federation of teachers says that after she talked to and surveyed a lot of teachers in her union, she is worried

that these concerns over health will mean that a lot of good teachers may decide they can't do it. here is what she told nbc this week. >> we're going have a whole lot of people retire early, quit, take a leave so that at the very same time the kids need these experienced teachers because they're facing three crises, they need people to kind of calm them down, focus on their well-being and their instruction, we're going to see a huge brain drain in the next few weeks. that was unconscionable what he did for political reasons. >> and kathy, i wonder if you're hearing some of those same concerns among the teachers who you talk to, and if you're worried that some really terrific teachers are going to decide it's just not worth it. >> we are very concerned about that here in arizona. we already were experiencing a severe teacher shortage across the state. so we can't afford to lose any of our high quality teachers.

i know when i talked to our school leaders like superintendents or principals, they're reaching out. they're surveying their teachers. we're asking what we can do. would you prefer to teach online? how can we make sure you feel safe coming back to work. so i have been encouraging and urging our school leaders to make sure they're reaching out directly, even calling every single teacher to talk to them individually to say what is it going to take? how can we make sure you feel safe coming back to the classroom? because it's not safe right now to open our schools, but we want to get to the point, we want to get this virus under control, get the spread under control here in arizona such that we could open our schools, even if it's for targeted support. we do need to make sure that we have the services for all of our kids. and this is going to be a huge challenge as i know that there is a lot of fear and anxiety amongst teachers. >> so dr. gupta, what advice could you give to anyone who works in a school or a parent who is considering whether or not it's safe to send their kids

back to school? what are the things they should know? what are the things they should be asking about what's going to happen inside any given building before they make that decision? >> you know, first and foremost, chris, i think the most important question for every school district is what is the rate of transmission, the test positivity rate in the school district. if it's too high or trending in the wrong direction, you can't open up the school safely. fundamentally. it's too much of a risk to teachers, to parents potentially, to children. it's not like this disease does not affect children. we know it does. a small minority, but it can. we should guard against uncertainty. that's number one. number two, there is a lot of parents can do. there is education on control. socialize children to what it means to wear a mask. they've been at home in bubbles. they understand what they're going to be coming up against when they go back to school. get more familiar with it. >> dr. vin gupta, it's always great to have you here. kathy hoffman, thank you so

much. good luck to all of you in arizona, especially as you embark on a new school year. thank you both for your time. and up next, a crisis within a crisis in texas as coronavirus cases continue to rise there. the effect is being felt far and wide. first it was a shortage of icu beds. flow is a shortage of firefighters and emts. we're going go life to houston for more on that and what's being done to help. my psoriasis. cosentyx works on all of this. cosentyx treats the multiple symptoms of psoriatic arthritis to help you look and feel better. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, if your inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. serious allergic reactions may occur. watch me! learn more at cosentyx.com. to visit all the places we didn't know meant so much.s to get out and go again. watch me!

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texas now has more than 250,000 case close. nbc's priscilla thompson joins me now from outside station 17 in houston with the latest on the skyrocketing numbers and the city's struggling fire department. one of the things that we're seeing is that covid-19 has tentacles in so many areas, one of them being where you're standing. >> yeah. indeerksd chris. i want to put a fine point on some of those numbers that you mentioned. more than 10,000 positive cases today. that is a new record, breaking the previous record that was set on tuesday. 105 deaths today. that is tying with the deadliest day since this virus began, which happened on thursday. and a 15.8% positivity rate in the state, the highest it has ever been. so very concerning numbers coming out of texas today. and those numbers are felt not only in the hospital system here, but also in the fire department where fist responders

are. and there are hundreds of firefighters in houston right now that are quarantining because they have been exposed to the virus or have the virus. and what that means, that's happening at a time when first responders are receiving more calls for service than ever before. and it is placing an incredible strain on those firefighters and first responders who are left here still clocking in every day. and i spoke with the fire chief here about that. and i want you to listen to how he described the situation to me. >> we have folks that are working 24, 48, sometimes 72 hours in a row, just because of the staffing issue. and, you know, it's incredible work. there is no easy shift. every day, as i said, we're running 1100 calls for service. >> and chris, those calls aren't just for emergency situations or covid-related situations. the fire department here is also responsible for enforcing those

occupancy limits, because businesses and restaurants are still open here in texas, and also enforcing those mask requirements. so truly, a lot of responsibility being placed on this department right now. and, of course, the folks here have that ppe. they have the gloves, the goggles, the masks when they're going into these situations. but with the more calls, that means more exposure, more opportunities for exposure, and there is really no end in sight. so there is a dhaern this is the new normal where they're working with a fraction of their staff in trying to respond to this uptick in calls, chris. >> yeah, as if it's not a hard enough job with a full staff. nbc's priscilla johnson in houston. thanks for that rather. up next, the political ads coming from the trump and biden campaigns, and are they something else? we'll talk with a couple of experts who have been in the room where the ads are getting made, after this.

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between america and trump, they chose trump. every time they were called to the service of this nation and their sacred oath, they chose trump. every time. learn their names. remember their actions. and never, ever trust them again. >> trump and the top superpac backing his reelection dropped $31.5 million on broadcast ads in june compared to biden's $8.8 million national ad spend last month. joining me to talk about all of this, senior adviser at the lincoln project and msnbc contributor kurt bardela and jimmy siegle is a media consultant at siegle strategies. i'm so happy to see both of you. jimmy, let's start with the biden campaign which this week released an ad on the power of family. here is a little clip.

>> he took the train four hours every day so he could have breakfast with his boys in the morning. and tuck them in at night. people in washington didn't get why joe biden would do that. never underestimate the power of family. >> it's been pointed out, jimmy, this is a follow-up to his thursday economic speech where part of his message was he understands the struggle of middle class americans because he lived it. i wonder what your impression of this ad is and of the importance of being on brand for biden. >> well, i think one of the lessons of 2016 was there was an awful lot of anti-trump stuff and there probably want enough of a positive vision on the

other side. joe biden surprisingly for someone who has been vice president is a little bit ill defined for most americans, which is, again, somewhat surprising but true. so i think in addition to all the anti-trump stuff, which the lincoln project is doing, by the way, a marvelous job on, you need to define who joe biden is. people need to know what the man's about, where he comes from, what his rallies are. i think it's probably a good thing they're doing that. i was thinking for a while we need a little more positive stuff about biden here. >> first let me contrast what we just saw in that joe biden ad with one of the president's new ads which says exactly the opposite, joe biden is dangerous for america. here's a look at that. >> you have reached the 911 emergency police line. due to defunding of the police

department, we're sorry but no one is here to take your call. to report a rape, press 1, to report a murder, press 2, to report any other crimes, press 2. >> joe biden did not call for the defunding of police. from a strategic point of view, from a long time in political advertising, conventional wisdom was that even though voters said they didn't like negative ad, they worked. right now in 2020 does an ad like that work? >> no, it doesn't, chris, and i'll tell you why. president donald trump has been in office for four years. when a sitting president has to go right out of the gate going negative, it tells you how

desperate the president is. we're in the middle of a pandemic and it's happening on this president's watch, all the while working class, struggling americans are dealing with real life consequences of president donald trump's cowardice in dealing with this pandemic. it's donald trump who time and again puts himself front and center says don't wear masks, doesn't abide by common sense medical guidelines, is pushing to reopen schools, i don't think that's going to work. i think the american people know who is responsible. donald trump makes it all about himself all the time and i think it's going to be hard for him to run away from that. >> kurt, this is from your group, the lincoln project.

you say "sentiment is not a strategy that is going to beat donald trump." this is an ad with a former navy seal. take a listen. mr. trump, you're either a coward who can't stand up to an ex-kgb gun or you're complicit. which is it? donald trump is unfit to be our commander in chief. i'm a pro-life, gun-owning con b -- combat veteran and i see tr see trump for what he is, a coward. >> some people are saying it the exact opposite of when they go low, we go high. >> when michelle obama uttered that very famous phrase at the 2016 convention, it made for fantastic oratory and it's a wonderful sentiment. in an ideal world, that would

win the day. he's used his administration to advance a corrupt agenda, the firing of inspector generals, pardoning of roger stone, russia putting a bounty on american soldiers. it's a five-alarm fire and there's so much going on it's impossible to focus on one thing. the lincoln project, when they do an ad, when we put out a spot, it allows us to drive a conversation and gives biden's campaign the ability to do what they need to do. i think back also to the spot that went on about trump walking down the ramp and drinking water and trump obsessed about it, he spent a big part of his tulsa speech reenacting it bizarrely. that was a ten-day media blitz that we saw and it allowed biden do what he wanted to do for ten days without having to deal with donald trump. >> i don't think anybody is doubting you guys are getting under his skin. we only have 30 seconds left. the other thing that was interesting was the comment i'm

a pro-life, gun toting veteran. this targets non-democrats, voters who are probably unthinkable in 2016. >> yeah. look, first of all, i think the best anti-trump campaign right now is trumtrump. he's the gift that keeps on givin giving. that navy seal is someone you would suspect probably voted for trump in 2016 and you would suspect he wohl vo -- would vote for him in 2020. the very fact the republicans are going after the president of their party says something. this ad uses someone you normally would think of as a republican who is going after the president. so i think it's good. >> jimmy siegel, kurt bardella,

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