is. tonight, breaking news, florida tops the single biggest increases in cases of coronavirus so far. as the president watches supports slip in key states where cases are rapidly rising. the white house daggers and undermines anthony fauci. can kids and teachers go back to school safely? i talked to former teacher of the year johe jhohanna hayes. later, grammy winner jason isabelle on music, masking and why he just won't shut up and

sing. tonight, it is worth pausing to reflect and right through the first rough draft of the history that unfolded this past week. once geneagain, a week in presi trump's america that felt like months or year. this week president trump went where richard nixon wouldn't when he commuted the sentence of one of his own men roger stone convicted of lying to congress as he tried to protect the president. mitt romney called the decision corrupt. robert mueller broke his silence to condemn stone. this past week, the two men that president trump appointed to the supreme court voted to give access to the president's financial records and this past week a pandemic that other advanced countries are starting to put behind them kept snowballing across florida, arizona, texas and south carolina. there are 114 days until the

election and it taught us anything can happen. the president's leadership and catching up with him. let's take many of those states by cov, dirks and efforts to contain coronavirus there and those voters most worried about the pandemic are breaking for joe biden. 86% of them. while the polls show tlump voru voters are enthusiastienthusias. leading by six points in florida. all of this has democrats sensing an opening urging biden to be aggressive for out of reach states like georgia, ohio and texas as jonathan martin put it in the "new york times", the democrats are quote a party emboldened by an extraordinary converging of events events, yes and the president's own

decisions struggling to keep a second term within his grasp. i'd like to welcome national political reporter robert costa and phillip rucker and "new york times" white house correspondent annie carney msnbc political analysts and contributors. great to have you on board. phil rucker, you and your colleagues at the post are out tonight with something, a sweeping look what the president is facing and not just a president but his party. you call it a tsunami. walk us through your latest reporting where things stand. >> kasie, if you look at the political indicators, the polling nationally as well as in battle ground states, the fu fundraising numbers, including most importantly his handling of the pandemic, you see him in a

lot of trouble here and talking to democratic leaders the last couple days, that is a party embolden emboldened. they are certain to take back the quite house and think trump is so weak he could hand the democrats the senate and that the democrats could expand their house majority. that is certainly not the outcome democratic leaders anticipated a few months ago but that's the reality in the summer. there are four months left to the election and certainly time for trump to recover and regroup and gain some momentum but if the election were held today, democrats are very confident that they would have a governing majority in both houses of congress, as well as the white house. >> it's been really a remarkable shift and you've been able to see it from senate republicans, as well. the increased nervousness and willingness to be more public certainly on coronavirus and breaking with the president and robert costa, you have been reporting over the weekend about republican efforts to oppose the

president and what those look like and whether they may be gathering steam particularly the lincoln project and i've actually been struck by videos of republicans against trump and some of those you report were completely unsolicited. walk us through what you learned. >> working with my colleague ashley parker, we looked at the never trump movement that failed to dent the president's campaign in 2016 but it's been revived in recent months and part of this surge of activity on the left and the left center, you see this never trump movement being assented and we scoop that the lincoln project raised 16.8 million in the sukd quaecond qu. they got a little cash. will they be effective, the lincoln project and groups doing testimonial ads and could be effective there tiive if there democratic wave as phil outlined because they could cut into republican votes in the suburbs where some may be wavering on

president trump and in the place like atlanta or detroit or milwaukee, it could have an impact. >> annie carney, what goes through -- the never trump movement that bob outlines and some of the figures that are behind it are people that many of us have worked with for many years. they have run plenty of republican campaigns in the past. they all got trounsed by donald trump in 2014 and this force was basically abandoned over the last couple years. is the white house thinking with any seriousness this is actually a problem for them or are they just still the subject of mockery? >> the white house pretty much laughs this effort off. they see the lincoln project and this new republican voters against trump. they see these all as enter connect aid temperatures by people like bill crystal and tim miller, a former aid to jeb bush to take down the president where they failed at every other

juncti juncture. the never trumpers i talked to is they think what happened in 2016 was there was a concerted effort from the establishment in washington, the foreign policy establishment everyone remembered signed that let r saying we oppose donald trump. it was still the establishment. these testimonials from regular republicans are supposed to be morefective with persuadable voters because it looks like your neighbor who voted for trump four years ago and is saying i'm not going to do it again. it's not coming from big wigs in washington, it coming from people you feel like you know and are in your actual life. so we'll see if that has any impact this time. at this point, with trump's poll numbers with every group that he needs to win, kind of falling seniors, suburban women, at this point it like any little bit in a critical state could make the

difference. so i think it's not something to shrug off at this point when they need every vote they can get. >> it's a good point. as jonathan martin walked through in the times, as well. there are democrats that are encouraging biden to go bigger on this and look at states that perhaps weren't on the map but i think your point is well taken and nancy pelosi even today was talking about this, how in some congressional districts, the support for the president is still there. some of her income wants for 2018 could make for interesting political geographgeography. let's talk about dr. anthony fauci who has been the face the people trusted the most through this crisis and he no longer briefs trump and is quote never in the oval office no more. the white house in effect sent research out on fauci. they write quote the white house official released a statement saying that quote several white

house officials are concerned about the number of times dr. fauci has been wrong on things, and they included a lengthy list of the scientist's comments from early in the outbreak. so phil, i mean, for our viewers who don't get the research blasts that all of us are reading in our inboxes for years, it's a list of data points typically used to harm another candidate and it seems like what the post received from the white house was a document that looked like that hitting their own coronavirus public health official. what is motivating this and walk us through why at a time when they desperately need credibility in fighting back against the pandemic that they would do this? >> first of all, what's going on is extraordinary and we should just pause and think about the full context here. we're in the middle of a pandem pandemic. the virus is continuing to rage across this country and cases

are spiking in a lot of states around the country and what you have at the white house is an effort by president trump's political aids in the government to destroy the reputation of the top infectious disease expert in our government, dr. anthony fauci. that's what that they mounts to and frankly, it's driven by the top by president trump who has been frustrated according to our reporting and that dr. fauci has been correcting him in public interviews, that dr. fauci is sticking to the truth and the facts as opposed to contorting himself to apiece whatever trump's whims are on any given day and that's of course as we know not how the president wants those working in the government to be acting publicly. he expects complete loyalty and complete discipline from those in the government in terms of a message and in terms of backing up the president but dr. fauci has just been speaking truth and he's been telling, talking about

the facts in these interviews and it's bothered the president. >> well, bob, it was struck by some of these examples that they put out in looking through it, and we've watched, we've all watched as dr. fauci has tried to carefully navigate his public role to essentially avoid being kicked out of the room and there was this feeling certainly among members of congress i talked to that it was important that fauci retained that seat at the table and there has been a level of understanding that he would sometimes do interviews that tried to essentially walk that very fine line, not anger administration but at the same time give the public the information that they needed. from a pure political perspective, if you're president trump, why do this when you know that what is primarily driving all of your political challenges across the map are americans' perception of your handling of this crisis? >> in conversations, kasie, with some of dr. fauci's associates

this weekend, it's clear he doesn't see this as trying to walk a fine line. in fact, he sees his mission now to continue to be a non-partisan figure within the government who is trying to provide his best possible guidance on how to handle the pandemic. and one of his friends pointe s quoted the god father in the line from the god father film where this is not personal, it's strictly business. in that interview and another interview, dr. fauci has talked about how he doesn't -- he had a relationship with presidents for decades. he's gotten the presidential medal of freedom. he's worked with presidents going back 30, 40 years in his public career. he's 79 years old. and even george h.w. bush was siting him during the presidential race in 1988 as one of his heroes so he seen a lot and though, this is different, president trump is beyond any norm in presidential life, he has seen a lot and he's going to continue to move forward unless

he is somehow forced out or forceded t to resign. >> annie carney, it strikes me that i think bob's point is well taken that fauci has been incredibly careful to remain non-partisan through many decades of public life but you're starting to see some officials and i think that the mueller op ed which we haven't talked through, you know, robert mueller coming out and writing that roger stone remains a convicted felon, should remain a convicted felon, you know, he felt compelled to speak. you had mitt romney calling the stone corrupt. it's not a whole sale bailing on the president but you're starting to see instances where the system is finally pushing back against the president that has run rough shot over it for three years. >> yes, i mean, robert mueller breaking his silence after a year was an incredible moment

that he felt the need to go and write this op ed to defend his work on the mueller investigation was quite surprising. for robert mueller, a man who barely spoke when called to testify in front of congress, this was basically like yelling and tearing his hair out the fact he would do such a thing. on phofauci front, what is remarkable about administration trying to under cut their own public health official whose poll numbers are higher than trump, that the not a coincidence as to why the president doesn't like that, but they don't have a alternative message about what people should be doing in the face of this virus to sell. but instead, they are under cutting their own top official. this is a combination of two things the president often does. one is he doesn't like aids to be more famous or more popular than he is. he doesn't view that as

reflecting well back on to himself. and the other is simply not -- sorry. i lost my train of thought. he -- the president doesn't like being overshadowed by an aid and the president has been looking for a scapegoat for this pandemic, whether it china or the world health organization or someone who serves in his own government. he's looking for someone to blame besides himself. >> i want to apologize there to annie. i'm having a little technical issues on my end so i've had some trouble hearing that answer but i'm sure it was exactly on point. annie carney, robert costa, phil rucker, thank you-all for your reporting tonight. i appreciate all of your time. >> we're following breaks news out of san diego after a fire broke out aboard a naval ship. at least 17 say lilors and four civilians were taken to the hospital with non-life

threatening injuries. about 160 were on board. a loud explosion was reportedly heard before the fire started around 8:30 a.m. local time. it eventually went to three alarms with black smoke filling the port. the ship had undergone regular maintenance before the fire broke out and the cause remains under investigation. when we continue, the president finally relengths to doing a photo op in a mask just as florida has the highest single-day record of new cases of any state. and now the president's inner circle is tweeting how good he looks in a mask. we have guests as states big and small see record coronavirus cases this weekend. small see record coronavirus cases this weekend er things er things than rheumatoid arthritis. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz a pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis when methotrexate has not helped enough. xeljanz can reduce pain, swelling,

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for the first time in four months, there are now documented coronavirus deaths in new york city. but florida has quickly emerged as the new epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic. the state reported more than

15,000 new cases of covid-19 day. the most by any state in a single day since this crisis began. in texas, austin and travis countries are securing refrigerated trucks to be used as mobile morgues as deaths continue to mount. in california the death toll went above 7,000 this weekend as the positivity rate fored nearl. the highest number in the state since april. the director of the harvard global law institute and professor at george washington university dr. l ishlina nguyen. for many of us on the east coast that watched what new york went through when they had a positivity rate. everyone is watching states that reopen quickly and wondered, you know, how on earth do we reverse this if the political will to shut down areas and economies

isn't there anymore. what in your view do these states that are experiencing these spikes need to do to get this under control? is that even possible anymore? >> well, nothing from here is inevitable, but i am extremely concerned, kasie because you're right, we saw this play out once before in the new york region. we saw explosive spreads at that point and at that time we saw explosive spread at one area in the country. now we're seeing multiple epicenters, all frankly raging out of control at this point. there is something that can be done. we know the science. we know what it takes is aggressive social distancing and we need a strict lockdown measure again. it may not have to be the same as last time. we know a lot more of the science. we know about universal masking and being indoors versus outd r

outdoors is significant. being outdoors versus indoors reduces transmission by 18 to 19 times. there are measures that can be put in place but the key is do we have a political will to do that and can we in the meantime also ramp up testing, have a national strategy around testing, securing masks and other ppe and really all these other measures we already know to be effective in containing this disease. >> and doctor, to that very point, what are the policies that you would like to see these state governors actually put into place and we know that there are about 20 states that are requiring people to wear masks in public but there are still plenty of places out there possibly, you know, half the country where it's not required. i mean, beyond or short of i should say these intensely painful shutdowns, what do you see as the things that need to be implementedperspective? >> kasie, thanks for having me

on. i'll reiterate a few points and let me highlight in states that have masking laws, they are not often enforced like they need to be. governors really need to do that. second, in any of these hot spots, indoor gatherings right now are just not sustainable. i know a lot of bars have closed. nightclubs have closed. i'm not sure that the hot spots can really afford to have indoor restaurants at this point. and then i really do think there is a lot more that can be done on testing but it's going to be very hard for the states to do it themselves. they really need the federal government to step up and help and i'm worried the feds are not coming to help the states as much as they need to. >> so speaking of the federal government, i want to show some of the things that president trump has said about the virus and this is not from january or february or march or april or any of the previous times when we were in the lead up to this pandemic and before our death

tolls had gone north of 100,000. this is what he had to say just on july 4th. watch. >> most of those cases immediately get better. they get young people that have sniffles and two days later, that i a they are fine and not sick. they are asimilymptomatic. now we have tested almost 40 million people. by so doing, we showcases. 99% of which are totally harmless. >> so, dr. nguyen, i'd like to fact check this here because as you point out, we know more about this virus than we used to and we definitely know that it is way more than the sniffles. that has always been obvious. walk us through what we have learned about this disease and the extend to which it can affect people not just while they are sick but potentially for months afterward. >> that's right. so it is just not true at all

that 99% of cases are harmless. the mortality rate is about 1%. so 99% of people who get covid-19 will survive, but we know that about 20% of those people end up becomeing. they will be in the icu and on respirators and succumb to the illness. this is a respiratory virus. it doesn't just affect the lungs but permanent lung damage and some end up on dialysis and affects the blood vessels and strokes and young healthy people in 30s and 40s end up having strokes and end up being debilitated for life. this is not the flu we're talking about here.

we need to speak to science and public health and point out this is not a benign illness. we need to be aware and prevent this and it takes all of us to save one another and our communities. >> doctor, let's talk about the flip side of this for a little bit of optimism as we wrap up. what have we learned about the virus in terms of treatments? if you end up in the hospital with covid-19 now, what do doctors know they can apply and use to help you that they didn't know back in march? >> yeah, so this really is a silver lining in all of this, that do dctors and nurses have gotten better taking care of patients. we got better avoiding putting people on a vent lay tilator an keeping them off the breathing machine and we have two drugs, remdesivir and dexamethasone. remdesivir is effective based on

one good clinical trial. we're getting better. that shouldn't offer too much assurance. even when people get therapies, many people walk out with substantial suffering, substantial long term effects. we have to take this virus very, very seriously. >> all right. doctors, thank you both so much as always for your time. we really appreciate your insights tonight. when we continue, no school, no help with caring for children:now women who are professionals find themselves once again taking on traditional roles as home. plus, former teacher of the year jahana hayes, the congresswoman joins me next. haye congressmawon joins me next. want to brain better?

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the president is calling for schools to fully reopen this fall, and threatening to pull funding for those who don't. here is education secretary betsey devoss this morning. >> we know that children get the virus at a far lower rate than any other part of the population, and again, there is nothing in the data that would suggest that kids being back in school is dangerous to them, and in fact, it more a matter of their health and well being that they be back in school. >> but this wednesday, texas health officials reported almost 1700 positive cases. a third of which were children

at over 1,000 child care centers in the state. in missouri, a summer camp cut its season short when dozens of staff and campers tested positive for coronavirus. many after they had already returned home. and yesterday, south carolina reported the first child to die of covid-19 in that state. without a national plan in place, the response from local leaders has been varied. florida's governor ron desantis is eager to get schools up and running as cases there spike. a high school district in phoenix, arizona will have only remote classes in the fall and connecticut plans to forge ahead with in person classes depending on coronavirus numbers there. joining me is connecticut congresswoman and former national teacher of the year jahana hayes. congresswoman, i appreciate you coming on the program tonight because i know there are so many parents, i'm lucky my son is not school aged by my friends with school aged children as well as

so many across the country are very, very concerned about how this is all going to unfold both for them and their ability to go back to work, but also, of course, in maintaining the health and safety of their children, and betsey devoss really struggled to answer that question when cnn put it to her over and over again this morning, can you assure that our children will be safe if they go back to school? she didn't seem to be able to provide that assurance. as a teacher, how would you answer that question? is it possible to make sure our kids are safe in this environment? >> well, thank you, kasie for having me. the secretary struggled to answer that question because she can't. and it is not possible, i think. i think we all want to go back to school. teachers want to be back in schools. students want to be back in school. but we cannot ensure that that will happen safely. as the secretary, when she started the sentence by saying i want us to go back to school, it should have ended with and i'm going to push for resources and

adequate funding. i haven't been in congress long but, you know, when the ppp program was about to run out, secretary mnuchin came to congress. he went to the president. he said i need help. my committee of agriculture, the under secretary and the secretary have come to fight for farmers. this secretary was absent at the beginning of the pandemic and now is coming out just with a blanket statement i want schools to reopen but with no guidance, no support, no sufficient answers and nothing that will ensure the safety of our children and teachers are going to be left to stand and answer those questions for parents with no direction. >> so, to that very point and chuck todd, my colleague on "meet the press" this morning talked to the superintendent of the miami-dade school system and one of the things he said was well, we actually did get some help from congress, the resources we got in the cares

about are allowing us to try to put our plan to reopen in place in a way that is safe for students. what does congress need to do in the next bill to work on this issue and, you know, where do the conversations on that stand? >> well, i've been pushing for this since schools closed back in march. every caucus call, every time we get together there is additional funding in the heroes act which sits in the senate right now. schools will be faced with unprecedented expenses. things they never considered. ppe, fema said they will not prioritize school districts. they are not going to purchase things. if the secretary, if the president was serious about reopening schools, they would have taken the time to inject the resources and the funds to get professional development for teachers, to make sure that broadband access was up, to make sure that they keep talking

about children are lonely and depressed, to make sure we have trama informed counselors to meet children when they return and make sure teachers and faculty members felt safe going back into the building but this idea that you just need to open and figure it out on your own, you can't lead from the back. i heard the secretary say this morning she's a non-medical professional and a non-physician. she's also a non-educator. so i would expect her to defer to the people who know best and support them in any way that she could to help get our children back safely. this is an experiment and i'm sorry if you can sense the frustration in my voice, but the fact that every other part of our economy, our country is phasing open slowly and we're going to send our kids back without the data to support it, without the resources, without what they need, you know, we did a pilot for three months and yes, it had kinks and didn't work but if we were very serious, we would try to make sure we'd explored all options

before saying you're on your own go back to school. >> just briefly before i let you go, do you think betsey devoss is to blame for this failure? >> no, absolutely not. i don't think she's to blame. i think there is a lack of leadership from the administrat. when schools closed back in march, this idea children handle this virus differently, we don't even really know because they haven't been together in a communal setting and like you said at the top of the segment, now that they are coming back together, we see breakouts in daycare centers and summer camps but kids aren't the only ones in school. what i do think is a failure on the part of the secretary is she is not advocating for students and teachers. she is not holding her title and her responsibility to speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands -- i'm sorry, the millions of teachers and

students that she's responsible for and that's what any good secretary would be doing right now. >> all right. congresswoman jahana hayes thanks for adding a valuable perspective to the conversation. appreciate it. >> thank you. during the 2008 recession we were treated to the term man session, it referred to the economic turn down impacting men. in 2020, call it the she session. over the coming weeks, nbc news political reporter ali is going to look into the impact the downturn from coronavirus is having on women and ali joins me now. ali, this week you've looked how the country has pretty quickly defaulted back to traditional gender roles as we have all been at home for hours on end. >> that's right, kasie. i'm sure you've seen articles

like men say they do most of the home schooling, only 3% of the women agree. in the covid-19 economy, you can have a kid or job but you can't have both. so as we embarked on this series reporting how women are being impacted by the one, two punch of pandemic and economic recession, the reinforcement of traditional gender roles especially in hetro sexual two person households felt like an important place to start. >> very good. >> ali dixson's days are a blur. >> it's going to be full force this week, not a lot of break time. >> before the pandemic hit, the new mom of 8 month old henry was gearing up to go back to work as a mental health therapist. >> all of a sudden, we were home and had to kind of figure out how we were going to take care of baby now. >> her husband is the primary breadwinner whose job provides their health care. so they made a choice. >> it just makes more sense

financially and logistically for me to become full-time mom and scale back drastically. how do we have a career and have kids right now? it feels impossible. >> ali is not alone in gaprappig with the question, one women was vexed by before covid-19. >> you feel fortunate but it's still hard. >> mom, do you want help putting away the goesrie rgroceries? >> i would love help. >> when coronavirus closed down her daughter's school, she began juggling her client load with her girl's homework questions. plus housework. >> then make dinner and collapse. >> alyssa scaled back her business while her husband continued working full-time. >> i feel like with the pandemic, women like me who still have a legitimate career but are the more flexible person in the household and often a freelancer, they're the ones who are losing.

>> the problem is that it is a rational choice to make in the context of a system that is irrational. right? that is not accidental. you know, that's the way the society has chosen to compensate people. or not compensate people. >> sometimes described as women's second shift, women do almost double the hours of unpaid work per day compared to men. a study showed a staggering total, american women doing $1.5 trillion in unpaid labor last year alone. and in jobs where women are compensated, study after study shows a persistent wage gap. white women earning 80 cents to a man's dollar and women of color making even less. the backdrop to today's tough reality. >> someone has to do this work. and someone has to be earning money. in the more traditional hetro sexual relationship, those relationships are ultimately

much more gendered than any type of relationship. >> male female couples rely on gender to determine who does what around the house. >> it wasn't even a conscious choice we made. we have no choice. this is how the chips fall and we're each doing what we have to do to keep our family going strong during the pandemic. >> a pandemic shining a spotlight on a modern economic system still rooted in an outdated past. >> here is something interesting, too, kasie. ally and her husband joe talked about gender's impact on their household structure now and since set a date, september 1st for them to reassess how things are working in their home for each of them individuals and of course, for their son henry, too. kasie? >> a really tough reality for so many families across the country trying to make this work. thank you for your reporting. look forward to more of it. when we return, a conversation with my colleague jac

jacob. one of the first reporters allowed in migrant detention centers in texas. he wrote about the struggles of families separated at the border whose concerns are only deepening amid the pandemic. y deepening amid the pandemic. [ chuckles ] so, what are some key takeaways from this commercial? did any of you hear the "bundle your home and auto" part? -i like that, just not when it comes out of her mouth. -yeah, as a mother, i wouldn't want my kids to see that. -good mom. -to see -- wait. i'm sorry. what? -don't kids see enough violence as it is? -i've seen violence. -maybe we turn the word "bundle" into a character, like mr. bundles. -top o' the bundle to you. [ laughter ] bundle, bundle, bundle. -my kids would love that. -yeah.

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inside this building today we got inside with another group of journalists for the first time and what we saw, frankly, is as shocking as everything else we've been seeing. people have been detained inside buildings like this for a long time. this is the first time since -- this is the first time ever that children have been separated on a system basis. look at the photos from parents because of the trump administration. people in here are locked up in cages, especially what look like animal kennels. i don't know any other way to describe it. >> it was just over two years ago when my friend and colleague jacob joined us from mcallen texas with the first tragic look

inside a border patrol defense tenter showing everyone the cruel treatment of children who had been ripped away from their families and this is still happening two years later and now we're in the middle of a pandemic and as we know the virus knows no boundaries that is why a federal judge ordered i.c.e. to release children from three from facilities by this friday. they aren't being proper medical care according to nb krrgs ne b reporting. i'm joined by the author of the new book "separated" inside an american tragedy. i was brought back to your initial reporting on this watching that and remembering just how haunting and heartbreaking this story was and you have been covering it, chronicling it on behalf of all of us but also on behalf of these families who are enduring this. let's start there as i know you and julia aniesly have new

reporting out tonight about some of these court decisions and what is happening with the virus but i understand you've kept in touch with some families that you have speak to that have been separated over time. what have they told you? is their story today that we, now know, have been districted from since you and i last spoke about this? >> it's good to see you, my friend, first of all. what i'll say is it gives me the chills to watch that again and remembering how two years ago you and i talked almost immediately, just hours after i had come out of that border patrol detention center in mcallen texas where i saw with my eyes, the kids in cages under my l mila rrk blankets. if i'll never forget it, the 5400 parents put through this by the trump administration what physicians for human rights calls torture will never forget it and the family that i write

about in the book, the father and son separated and the father being sent to the high desert here in california and the son not far from there in texas, sent to me not two weeks ago when i was down in the border with the president, if you see him, ask him a question for us, why do they separate us and traumatize us psychologically? that's what they said to me, what they hoped i would ask the president of the united states. i didn't prompt them to say that. you mentioned it, this is still going on right now and we just reported tonight julia ainsley and myself lawyers are pleading. they filed a civil rights co complaint to let the parents and children out of i.c.e. detention now instead of dangling this separation out of them because they fear they could die of coronavirus in i.c.e. detention. that's where we are. many lawyers and activists would argue things are worse today than they were back then, believe it or not. >> what is it like right now for those families who have this

hanging over their heads who are have been detained? kind of care are they getting or not getting and what is the legal outlook for where they might end up? >> we'll know a lot more tomorrow when this judge we'll the judge releases them together as families. they are in life threatening conditions, many have life threatening pre-existing conditions. i.c.e. could release them as we're talking right now but trump administration continues to dangle, won't rule out future family separations. this is the reason i wrote this book. the idea it's still happen is foreign to so many of us. i went back to trace in realtime and put together the pieces i wasn't seeing inside these facilities to try to understand how we get here today. the truth is, i like many of us, missed important pieces of this story even though i was right in the middle of it. >> you spoke with katie miller,

who, of course, part of the trump administration, married to stephen miller, largely known as an architecture of this. she made comments to you many thought were offensive. walk us through that and the white house response? >> the truth of the matter is katy tur and myself were out to dinner with katie miller, a source dinner, talking to her about what she was working with at the time for homeland security. what she told us was she was sent to the border to become more compassionate because she wasn't. read in the book exactly what she said to us. she said, it didn't work. i said, it didn't work? i said, are you a white nationalist? she said, no, but i believe if you can to america you should simulate. why do we have little havana. i didn't know what to say. what do you say when someone in a position of power saying someone like that to you. what it says to me, what i took

away from it is that is the underlying intention of people in this administration. it's not to deter immigration, fix the immigration system it's the words she said. she didn't just say it to me but katy tur and others who came forward as i reported this book and subsequent to the book coming out. >> the book is "separated." it is heartbreaking and very hard to read but it is truly such an important and beautifully written tribute to many of these families. jakob, congratulations. thank you for coming back tonight. much more k cdc back after this. blab blab in my head. and certainly not arthritis. this. blab k back after this. blab a back after this. blab si back after this. blab e back after this. blab back after this. blab d back after this. blab . back after this. blab back after this. blab c back after

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ahead, daniel goldman is here to talk about roger stone plus senator tim kaine joins me live with major warning signs flashing for the economy in august, will congress extend relief for americans. jason isbell on politics and parenting amid the coronavirus pandemic. n politics and parenting amid the coronavirus pandemic they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident, even if it's your fault. cut! sonny. was that good? line! the desert never lies. isn't that what i said? no you were talking about allstate and insurance. i just... when i... let's try again. everybody back to one.

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ghosts of 2015 to come back and haunt the president of the united states. >> do you plan to release your tax returns? >> we'll think about that certainly. i haven't thought about it. certainly i would have no problem. i jokingly say i'll release my tax returns when hillary releases her e-mails, when she gives us the e-mails. we will certainly give that strong consideration. >> that was part of my interview the day that trump announced his run for the white house. it was a couple haircuts ago. let's fast forward this week and the supreme court issued a pair of decisions on his tax returns. in one of them the court ruling he is not immune from the manhattan's d.a.'s attempt to

tan them. trump's lawyers will continue to challenge until thursday. also this week the president'sling time friend and confidante roger stone still advising the campaign at the time of the interview you just saw, the president on friday night announced he was commuting stone's prison sentence. it sparked a "washington post" op-ed from special counsel robert mueller who felt the need to break silence and remind americans that, quote, stone was prosecuted and convicted because he committed federal crimes. he remains a convicted felon and rightly so. in response senate judiciary chairman says he'll grant a long-standing request to have mueller testify before his committee. tax returns, roger stone, robert mueller. to quote yogi berra, it feels like deja vu all over again.

joining me now is daniel goldman. he served as majority counsel during house impeachment inquiry. before that he was an assistant u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york. daniel, you lived this more intensely than most of us. and you know, sometimes i look back at what we thought was going to be the biggest story of the year, if not the decade. of course we look back now and think we had no idea what we were even in for. let's start with roger stone. you tweeted -- and these are your words. only one explanation for this blatant corruption makes sense trump has given up on re-election and is just trying to save his own hyde. what did you mean by that? >> we sort of crossed the rubicon with roger stone a little bit because this is the first time trump has gone out of his way to pardon someone, commute a sentence or in any way use his own power in order to help himself, donald trump, as opposed to political allies or

friends or other people in his network or social circle. what i meant by that is roger stone was found to have covered up for donald trump. he lied to congress as part of a much larger and perhaps well orchestrated effort to obstruct the house intelligence committee's russia investigation and lied to that committee, so did michael cohen. there are others, erik prince referred to the department of justice because of suspicions he lied as well. but now what donald trump is doing is actually going out and commuting the sentence of someone who has information about donald trump's own wrongdoing. and if you wondered whether that was the reason or not, roger stone seemed to clear that up for us on friday when he said himself that the president knows his situation would have been much better if he had flipped on donald trump but he didn't.

a few hours later his sentence was commuted. the point i was making donald trump can commute roger stone's sentence at any time as long as he's president. i found it odd he would do it four months before the election instead of weeks after the election. the trigger is roger tonight going to jail monday. if roger stone ends up in jail he might decide to cooperate and he's got corroborating information on donald trump according to roger stone. >> interesting way of looking at it. the other thing that really sticks out to me here is bill barr's role in all of this. there's reporting he and mark meadows and others close to the president essentially urged the president not to do this for legal but political reasons this was probably a bad idea. obviously there was also all kinds of back and forth about the length of the sentence that stone was actually handed and

prosecutors who were very frustrated with how that was handled at the highest levels of the justice department. what is your read on bill barr's kind of evolving role in all of this saga. >> my guess is bill barr is pretty pissed, because he overruled his own prosecutors to advocate for a lower sentence. the judge ended up sentencing stone within the range that parr wanted, not that the career prosecutors wanted. you may recall, kasie, all four of the career prosecutors who handled the stone prosecution with drew from the case. one of them resigned entirely from the department of justice because of barr's interjection in that case that was contemporaneous with tweets by donald trump. so barr goes to bat for donald trump and tries to get a reduced sentence for roger stone. and then trump turns around and just commutes the sentence anyway so all of barr's efforts are for naught. trump now takes the political

hit of commuting the sentence of someone who in some respects was a co-conspirator of donald trump. by the way, the other thing that gets lost in all of this, donald trump lied to robert mueller's investigation about his communications and contacts with roger stone. that was redacted from the original released report but it came out recently as part of a lawsuit and came out at roger stone's trial and robert mueller himself in the intelligence committee hearing on july 24th of last year said that donald trump was not truthful in his answers under the penalty of perjury. so roger stone is very much wrapped up in all of this and bill barr went to bat for donald trump and donald trump turns around and undermines all the efforts bill barr went to to do roger stone a solid. there's trouble in paradise, so to speak. >> there's a lot there.

speaking of robert mueller, what was your reaction to him breaking his silence in this op-ed and what's your take on lindsey graham saying, okay, fine, i will call mueller before my committee. do you think that's on the up and up? >> i think there's very little chance robert mueller will appear before the senate judiciary committee. i was involved in extensive negotiations with mueller's team in advance of his testimony, and he was incredibly reluctant to testify for reasons that he explained in his op-ed, which is that he wants to let the report speak for itself. the op-ed was clearly constrained by the report. he did not say much beyond what was said in the report. that was consistent with how he testified. i think that he and his team believed they did a very thorough and detailed investigation and that investigation should speak for itself, not some comment in testimony by the special counsel

himself. but he clearly felt the need to defend the investigation against the attacks that not only has donald trump levied against him in commuting roger stone's sentence but also bill barr has been effectively trying to undo the investigation that robert mueller did. he moved to dismiss the case against michael flynn, interceded in the roger stone case. it now appears one of the indictments against russians has been dismissed -- against 12 russians has been dismissed. basically the special counsel was appointed because of comments within the department of justice. he completes an exhaustive investigation, charges a number of people, gets a number of guilty pleas and now the subsequent attorney general is blowing through the independence of the special counsel in an effort to undermine and undo

everything the special counsel did. there's regulations for the special counsel are not working. >> all right. dan goldman, thank you very much, my friend. always good to see you and have you on the program. >> good to see you. >> more to talk about this president and ceo, former senior adviser to president obama and former aide to george bush white house and state department nbc analyst anise jordan. >> glad to have you back. glad you're healthy and really appreciate all the messages you've had to everyone for how to stay safe. let me start with you on what we were just talking about with dan goldman and that's this idea. let's focus on the politics of it here. barr was -- and meadows were trying to convince president trump not to commute roger stone's sentence because they were worried about the political fallout from it. do you think that's a legitimate concern considering the state of the presidential race right now or does it not matter at all to

president trump's base? >> i don't think it matters to the president's base but i do think, you know, part of a broad pattern. i do think people are tired of the chaos. here is an instance you have the president of the united states commuting the sentence of a person who was sentenced. he was found guilty for essentially covering up for the president. so i don't know that it's more important than the coronavirus to people or the protest for civil rights but i do think it's another sort of nail in the coffin, so to speak, if you're tired of sort of lawlessness and chaos. i think really importantly it allows, you know, lots of people to talk about the russia investigation once again. really it's not the russia vgs itself but just the cronyism. this is worse than what nixon

did. nixon never did anything like this. i think people are right to think it's not a good few days for the president but, of course, his mishandling of the virus is front and center. >> allielise jordan, one of the things that drove nixon's decision matter is he knew he could go too far for his republican backers in congress and ultimately obviously that fell apart and he stepped down. we haven't seen a chorus, necessarily, of people condemning what the president did here with roger stone. we have tweets from mitt romney who said this is corruption and pat toomey was critical, republican senator from pennsylvania as well. what's your sense of what happened here. they aren't saying anything. in other words, there's deafening silence in terms of supporting the president on this. >> it's a harder time for senate

republicans to really stick by donald trump simply because of coronavirus in the absolute mishandling of such a grave crisis. it's completely unsurprising, though, that this really isn't going to get much response from senate republicans when donald trump -- you know, he commutes roger stone's sentence but it's pardoned three war criminals. you know, it just is par for the course with the corruption and the cronyism. and donald trump feels that he already got away with everything that was investigated by robert mueller, so why not go ahead and do a favor for his friend who keeps publicly boasting that he has incriminating information on donald trump. >> and elise to speck up on what you said about coronavirus and to have that broader scope an context the president is acting

in, we were talking earlier in the show with some "washington post" reporters and they have focused on anthony fauci and the white house seems to be actively trying to discredit dr. fauci. is that something that is helpful, elise, for senate republicans trying to hold onto their seats? >> it's unbelievable that right now donald trump is at risk of losing texas. texas, red state. he's focusing on dumping oppo about one of the nation's foremost public health experts who has served administration's of both stripes and has an impeccable reputation. it's really sad and shows why the country is so unnerved by donald trump and his administration's response to the pandemic because he would rather focus on dumping opo about dr. fauci than trying to ensure there are plenty of tests nationwide and ppe for medical

personnel. so i would be incredibly unhappy if i'm in florida or arizona or texas and i'm hearing attacks on tony fauci but everything is staying the same. i have to wait a week to get tested for coronavirus. >> the experience of americans is at odd with the way the president has been focusing on this, and that's been true for months. neera, the reality that elise underscored there, polling in texas, cbs news has arizona polling, texas, other states where suddenly joe biden is doing better than anyone ever imagined he might. we are potentially talking about a map that goes well beyond wisconsin, pennsylvania, some of the classic battle grounds. jonathan martin in the "times" reported there's pressure on the biden campaign to go big in these cases. what's your advice?

do you think a more focused strategy on swing states or should they try to make a bigger play in redder, harder to reach states. >> the most important thing is to get to 270. so i think it makes a lot of sense for the summer months to focus like a laser beam on wisconsin, which has still been -- wisconsin is a tough state. it's good the vice president is doing -- vice president biden is doing better in florida. he definitely has a lot more insurance than democrats had in 2015 but i think it makes a lot of sense to shore up those states and see where we are in september. if texas is even as with we're going into the last two months, obviously it seems to make a lot of sense to go there. i would also say particularly georgia which has two senate up right now a critical opportunity over the coming year. i think it makes a ton of sense for them to ensure they are solid for 270, because, you

know, politics changes dramatically. four months ago the election looked a lot different than it does today. i think it's really important. we are talking about a really -- to many democrats a very scary world if donald trump is elected. it's the vice president's responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen and being pretty conservative on that makes some sense. >> certainly the previous 114 days were unlike anything we thought they would be like and we have 114 days left to go so your point is very well taken. elise jordan, thank you so much for being with us tonight. it's always great to see you, my friend. still to come, my conversation with grammy winning singer songwriter jason isbell. first senator tim kaine. with millions of americans facing a rent and mortgage crisis, will congress step up again with a plan for relief. that's next. again with a plan for relief that's next. pay for what you need. what do you think?

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welcome back. joining me now is democratic senator tim kaine of virginia. senator cain, it's always great to have you on the program. thanks for being here tonight. >> thanks, kasie. yeah, glad to be with you. >> i want to start with the cliff that millions of americans are facing at the he said of this month. we are rapidly heading toward the end of july when unemployment insurance is scheduled to run out and a lot of them have been getting an extra $600 a month from the

federal government. i want to show you and our viewers what nancy pelosi had to say, then i want to ask on the other side. let's watch. >> not only will the $600 expire, unemployment insurance will expire. >> so will you be able to extend that? will you find a compromise in order to extend that? >> we have to find a compromise because we must extend it. we must extend the unemployment insurance. it will expire at the end of july. >> so she says we must extend it. do you view that and do senate democrats view that as a red line this will not pass congress if an extension is not in this bill? >> kasie, i think we do. let me unpack it. in the c.a.r.e.s. act in march we did three things with unemployment. we extended the number of weeks you could get unemployment benefits because of the depths of this fiscal challenge. we extended the universe of people who could apply for

benefits. self-employed, gig worker, multiple part time, you couldn't get unemployment insurance. we definitely have to extend both the number of weeks because of the depth of this depression and the universe of people who can make a claim. the third thing we did was we added the $600 a week benefit on top of what you would get under your state's rules. that one is in discussion. but i think we should use this money whether $600 a week for additional ui benefits or take that money, what i would like to do is program it into eviction assistance, program assistance, food aid, child care, health care. we know americans are hurting and they are going to hurt for some time because of this challenge. whether we do extra $600 through unemployment insurance or put it into direct aid to folks who were hurting, i think that is a red light for democrats. we need to do that because americans are hurting and they are going to be hurting for a

while. >> do you think to that point there is an understanding among republicans that's different than it was? we did have kind of a period where they asked for a pause. there was questions about whether things were going to continue to be bad. since then the political climate has gotten tough, and we're not sure if kids will go back to school in the fall. do you think there's willingness with senate republicans to go big on this bill? >> if you asked me on memorial day when the house passed the h.e.r.o.e.s. act, i would say my senate republican colleagues would have been willing to do something, if not the h.e.r.o.e.s. act directly, we would have done something in june. i was very surprised the senate gop said, no, we're not sure we need anything else. as we are now in a two-week recess and returning on the 20th of july for three weeks, i'm hearing a very different story from our republican colleagues and especially a different story

from the white house. they know this pandemic is raging request death tolls over 130,000. they know the economic challenge is every bit as intense. it's not going away. while i think this may be differences what's in the bill i'm finally saying the senate gop and white house have a sense of urgency but doing something and i expect we will get a bill done. not with the speed of the house, sadly but we'll get a bill done before the he said of july. >> certainly an evolution there, senator, that's noteworthy. let's talk for a second about getting kids back into classrooms. fairfax county schools, one of the largest in america. >> in the country. >> one of the strongest in the country has come you said criticism from the administration for the way they decided to approach their reopening strategy. what's your reaction to how the

administration and betsy devos specifically have handled that in the context of fairfax county? >> kasie, do you have an hour? okay. i'll try to shorten it. i'm really distressed with the way the administration is handling this. the question is not whether schools will reopen. they will reopen in the fall. the question is will they open online or in person or in some combination. who do parents of school age kids trust to make that decision? do they trust local principals and superintendents or school boards, or do they trust donald trump and betsy devos. donald trump has preached quack medicine. donald trump denied this was a health problem. donald trump wouldn't wear the mask until the sixth month of this crisis. donald trump makes his own supporters sign liability waivers before they attend campaign rallies. who would parents of school age kids trust, school board members

or donald trump. either not a ha it's not a hard question. parents trust local officials. i think they will get this right. the strong arm tactics of donald trump and betsy devos to help their campaign regardless of the health effects on kids is really, really outrageous. >> so very quick question before i let you go, as the political climate is changing, do you think democrats are poised to take back the senate in the fall? >> you know, there's a lot of time between now and november. i will just say to you, kasie, there will be a lot of twists and turns. but compared to a year ago, i would have said we had a very infantry owe path to take a democratic majority in the senate a year ago. it was an uphill push. we were trying to win four seats and we didn't have that many on the chess board. frankly we're looking all over the country, iowa, georgia,

kansas, arizona, north carolina, maine, alaska, south carolina, kentucky. we have a lot of pieces on the chess board now. the reason we do is people can look at this administration and those who have enabled it, the republican senators and say what this trump administration has brought to our country is death at unprecedented levels, economic depression and social division we haven't seen in 50 years and nobody wants to continue that. i think that's the reason the democrat fortunes are so strong. i feel good about our chances but certainly not complacent. not at all. >> you were clearly the right person to ask that question. i'm very expressed you were able to rattle off that map basically in order of likelihood you'll take back those seats. senator kaine, great to have you on the show. when we come back we'll talk about some of those states. democrats want joe biden to run

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with less than four months until election day, joe biden is taking aim at president trump's strongest issue, the economy. the question, of course, is will it work. despite trailing biden on a slew of issues, the president has consistently polled better than biden on handling the economy. in a speech near scranton,

pennsylvania, the vice president previewed attack lines we're sure to hear more of as november approaches. watch. >> a bit different than how i grew up up here. donald trump has no idea what it's like to be a single parent who is barely getting by but needs to find child care. he doesn't have a clue what it's like to provide for an aging parent. >> joining me now is msnbc correspondent david gura and neera is back can us as well. david, let me start with you. i think my question here, the polling shows consistently the president still gets high marks on the economy despite the fact americans are feeling so much pain in their lives. as we head toward the fall, is there any indication that real life pain is going to get any better with a medical crisis continuing? if not, is that enough to overcome the image of donald

trump the businessman they think is the right guy to handle the economy? >> yeah. you were just talking with senator kaine about the cliff we face in a couple of days and the senator is right. there's precious little time to figure out hispanic to do to stave off something that could be pretty bad. a lot of people getting by because of the benefits through the c.a.r.e.s. act stand not to be able to do that going forward. we could see more people not paying rent and the economy cratering. i look as the president as somebody who job owned the market like no other and abstract exuberance. most americans aren't investing in the stock market but the stock market goes up. they can point onthat and they feel like through some connection things are going well. when you look at the pandemic, unemployment, the economic picture generally, it gives one pause because there's a realism there that i don't think that the president gets. a few minutes ago you talked about the president's lived experience versus everyone else's. there's a i had woulder and

wider gap between the two things. for folks again who were struggling to get by, lost their jobs and think their job is coming back as the economy cranks back into gear, they hope, i think, there's a dose of realism that stands strong chance of sub assusuming the abt excitement he's able to maintain over his term. >> neera, why the slight edge on the economy and do you think what the biden campaign is doing is effectively attacking that gap. >> to be sure donald trump has always had -- over the last several weeks had high ratings about the economy, talks about the stock market all the time. his numbers are down. a year ago they were up around 60%, 58%, 57%. now, it is his best polling issue. he's doing better on the economy

than every other issue, which he's really under water. it is his last life line. i personally think the last two weeks of the pandemic the surge in southern states is a real problem for his economic argument because i think most americans think his economic argument, his economic plan has been reopening. he pushed these states to reopen. he pushed these republican governors to reopen. they reopened and the virus is out of control. more and more people understand, and we've seen this in polling, the longer the virus going on, the deeper the pain. i think when people recognize that mishandling the virus means that donald trump has actually made our economic pain longer and deeper. i think it's really important the vice president makes that argument, which he's been making over the last self weeks and also lays out an alternative position how he will invest in people, have a real economic

recovery for everyone. i do think most americans recognize, believe, the majority of americans strongly believe donald trump is not focused on the middle class and working people. >> david, very quickly, you've covered wall street and the financial markets for a long time. how nervous are people making big decisions about spending money about the fundamentals of this economy right now? >> there continues to be a lot of short-termism with investors and we see the market rising and falling as it does. when you talk to economists and business leaders they are concerned about what's happening here. they are looking at data and forecasts as well. they have been listening keenly to the federal reserve chairman who they have seen through this. he suggested we would have 9% unemployment for the rest of the year. things have really worsened in the last couple of weeks, especially southern states. a lot of economists at major banks, economists are swallowing

hard and thinking worse than that for a period of time. i go back to vice president biden in scranton, back there in scranton talking about those issues. he focused on the pandemic and how we get where we are on the pandemic. the huge part is testing. you talk about lived experience. i lived this, plus came back from reporting trip from houston and took me seven days to get my test results, basic test results whether or not i had covid-19 in my system. the vice president pointed out in his speech pointed out that can't be the case. businesses that want to reopen are counting on the fact there will be regular and easy testing as a part of daily life of business in the country. we are so far away from that, kasie, at this point. >> it's very, very good and depressing point. david gura, neera tandem, thank you very much. democrats need to defend their seat in alabama.

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believe it or not democrats hopes to retake the senate may run through alabama. in the runoff jeff sessions is an underdog for his old seat with the president repeatedly putting his hand on the scale in favor of former auburn football coach tommy tubberville. monica here to break down the race for us. jeff sessions is trying to stand up to the president, show he supported the president and get re-elected to this doug jones seat. does it have any chance of working? >> well, it's the big question that alabama voters will be weighing on tuesday, kasie. many of them appear undecided. it's a state the president won by double digit in 2016 and a state that supported jeff sessions in the past. from the limited polling he does

seem to be behind tommy tuberville. it appears he's doing everything he can to ensure the defeat of one of his first endorsers. not on the ballot. >> president trump. >> president trump. >> alabama has the race president trump is most personally invested in, other than his own, pitting his first attorney general jeff sessions against former auburn football coach tommy tuberville. >> we don't know this man. he is an empty suit. >> you can't fake it. you're either strong or your not. an jeff sessions, he's not. >> it was in mobile in 2016 that sessions through on a red hat. >> make america great again becoming the first senator to endorse trump for president lending early credibility to the campaign. >> when i get jeff sessions that means a lot to me. that means a lot. >> that was then. >> despite engineering the administration's immigration policy, the president never

forgave sessions for his recusal from the mueller investigation. >> as you know the attorney general said i'm going to recuse myself. i said, why the hell didn't he tell me that before i put him in. the president was itching to campaign in march but they convinced him to hold twitter fire until votes were cast. he endorsed tuberville and traveled aboard "air force one." sessions took the blow resting future on loyalty to the president. >> did i write a tell-all book? no. did i go on cnn and attack the president? no. >> that ended soon after when trump told alabama not to trust their former senator. sessions fired back for the first time in four years tweeting at the president i did my duty and you're damn fortunate i did. the president piled on. >> he's not mentally qualified to be attorney general. jeff sessions was a disaster.

he was a total disaster. >> we're going to finish what president trump started when he looked at jeff sessions from across the table and said, you're fired. >> the republican primary was already unlike any other, beset by delays from coronavirus, a mysterious campaign bus fire and debates over debates. >> tommy is not there. he's dodging again. >> but the race has been less about the candidates' policies visions and more about supporting the presidents. >> i'm going to stand with president donald trump on building the wall and cracking down on illegal immigration. >> tuberville is trying to trick you hiding his support for immigration amnesty. >> for years sessions was untouchable in his home state. he gave it up to serve the president. now, because of the president, he may never get it back. kasie, the trump campaign explored holding a rally down in alabama ahead of the runoff but

local officials raised concerns about coronavirus so they ultimately had to scrap that because the president can't be there in person for tuberville he's been tweeting calling sessions a man he appointed to a top cabinet post, quote, a disaster who has let us all down. kasie. >> there is a lot there. monica alba, thank you for your great reporting. i'm fascinated to see how that race turns out. our next guest is an alabama native as well. i'm joined by singer songwriter jason isbelle to talk about his politics, his album and a new book. politics, his album and a new book safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! he's here. he's right here. - hi! - hi. hey! - that's totally him. - it's him! that's totally the guy. safe drivers do save 40%.

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♪ maybe it's time to let the old ways go ♪ ♪ maybe it's time to let the old ways die ♪ ♪ takes a lot to change a man ♪ it takes a lot to try ♪ maybe it's time to let the old ways die ♪ >> that's bradley cooper doing his best jason isbell impression in "a star is born." it's been a theme lately for the singer songwriter from alabama, a new album "reunions." great to have you on. i'm a huge fan.

we've been listening to you throughout this pandemic. my husband and i both really miss live music and appreciate the new music we have been able to experience. so let's start there. i mean, what has changed for you about making pandemic? it's so completely different to experience as a fan, and i can't imagine what it must be like for you on the other side. >> it's weird. it's definitely weird. i can still make music. i just don't get that immediate feedback that i got playing shows and on tour. i'm very fortunate. we've got a four-year-old daughter and i've got a loft ways to record and write and work here at home. i can sort of stay in the house and weather the storm for the most part. had this happened to me ten years ago before i really had a lot of success, when i was still

drinking and driving around in a van, i would have been in a much worse situation. there's a lot of artist friends that we have concern for right now, for sure. >> you mentioned your daughter. i think we have an adorable clip of her to share. let's play it and we'll talk about it. >> i'm awesome about yodelling. ♪ ♪ yodelling >> can you send that to jewel? >> i very we're all having things happen. she's probably learning a lot from you and your wife about music during this time. >> i hope so. she's a musical kid. she's pretty happy with the quarantine situation, considering the fact that we're all home together at the same time. every once in a while she gets a

little bit wisconsinful for the road and she asked if she can pretent she's in a hotel for a day. we've got a garden and we spend a lot of time outside. it could be worse for us, that's for sure. at the same time, sometimes i just break down in tears because i miss playing rock 'n' roll with my band on tour. i really miss it badly. we're going to wait and play it safe. that's all we can do. >> your town nashville is one that thrives on people packed together in blarz listening to live music, places like the blue bird cafe. we weren't even able to get in. nothing can be had for anybody right now. what does it mean for not just you, as you point out, you're a big name, you're established but

the thousands of people that support that system? >> i think we're going to wind up missing out on a lot of really great artists, a lot of people had the virus not come through or had it come through and been handled a little better and had we shut it down pretty quickly, a lot of these people would still be struggling from get from record to record and sock to song and town to town, there's a period of time there, unless you sign to a label and get a lot of publicity, there's a time when you're working below the poverty line. you're traveling and working and doing everything you can to make your career happen. it was that way for us years ago. some people stay in that period of their career for decades. some people never leave that decade of the career. some of them have good art and good music they're making and

they're trying to deliver that to people. right now we're going to lose a lot of the small venues that those people were playing in and selling their albums through. i don't think we'll ever really know really what the cost culturally is of the virus and the way the virus has been handled, because we'll just do without. those people will have to re-enter the work force or choose something else to do with their lives and that's a shame. i know a lot of people who don't have very marketable music but have very, very good music. popularity is not a barometer for quality in art. we're going to miss out on a lot of peel who otherwise might have made some folks really happy and connected with music. now they don't have anywhere to go play. they just don't have the option. >> speaking of loss, you endured a very personal loss in john

prooi prine. can you talk about what that meant to you and what it told you about then? you have taken your popularity and your presence to advocate for some things that have turned political, partly because of this experience. >> yeah, i mean, there are still people out there who don't believe that the virus is real, and i know for a fact that john is not hiding. john were alive, he would be with his family and we would hear from him and so john is gone. and cancer couldn't kill him. it tried multiple times and covid-19 managed to pull it off, and it broke our hearts, you know, and still we really haven't been given an document to grieve, just like a lot of people out there who have lost people close to them. john was a hero to us and he was also a very good friend and it's tough for me to see people, you

know, out going about their business and hanging out at cafes and not wearing masks and not distancing and playing shows sometimes and taking pictures from the stage of a crowd all squashed in together. it hurts me and it hurts me for john's family, too. i know they're part of the international music community. his wife and son managed john's career. every tile i see somebody out there acting like this virus isn't real, i think about them and i think about how that must feel after they've lost somebody who was so important to them. >> you've stepped out on masks because of this. you've also talked publicly about police brutality. you've advocated for black musici musicians. what made you decide to use your platform for those kinds of

things? >> you know, i just feel bad for people who don't get a fair shake, and that, to me, like i can sit and write songs and sing them and play the guitar all by myself, and get almost the same level of pleasure and joy and challenge out it that i get by traveling around and playing for people. but at a certain point, there has to be some kind of end game. there has to be a real reason. why have i been given the microphone and why are there people listening to me? and if i said things that people agreed with all the time, i wouldn't be able to change anybody's opinion and i wouldn't be able to sleep at night. when i see somebody suffering needlessly, i just think i have to speak up. that's a human thing. i'm not in control of the volume of my voice. i've got a microphone in front of me, which i usually do, more

people will hear it, but it's just me being what i was taught when i was fyfe years old. when you see somebody getting the worse of something. that's the way i feel about how blacks are treated, how women are treated, how a lot of people are treated. it's not guilt or shame that i feel, because i can't control my situation as a white man but i owe a little bit back for people who didn't have the same opportunities that i had. i really face a very little -- very small amount of resistance in my life. it's been a lot of work. i've had to climb a mountain but i haven't really had a person throwing rocks at me while i'm climbing it like some americans have. >> we appreciate you bringing your microphone toe us tonight. the album is "reunions."

jacob, thank you for being here. that does it for us. for now, good night from washington. for now, good night from washington they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. almost done. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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