they were willing to sacrifice it for the kroen akrcoronavirus thought it was doing bad because of the coronavirus, i don't know why they would be matted d abou at him. now, all of it could change, but for now, it seemed like he was in a decent spot. >> that is interesting, nate, thank you, that is it for "all in," and the rachel maddow show with her exclusive with mary trump starts now. >> our guest is mary l trump the niece of the president of the united states. when the president's, what is it? 54th national security adviser john bolton sought earlier this year to publish his book about his time in the trump white house, you may recall there were a lot of threats from the white house and from the president personally. there was a concerted legal

effort, including an effort by the u.s. department of justice to try to stop john bolton from publishing that book. that's the kind of thing this, this attorney general bill barr is happy to do for this president. but john bolton's publisher, simon and schuster, they went to the mattresseser for him. they fought tooth and nail, fought every legal action, and they got that thing out. and you know, simon and shuster has the first amendment on their side and they were effectively standing up for the first amendment rights of their selves and their author. and simon and shuster knew that it was important that the bolton book hit book stores because they knew it would sell a gajillion copies and it did. the bolton book has sold 800,000 copies in the first week.

that was a record for simon and shuster, until today. when the same publisher, just announced that mary trump's new book about her uncle, the president, her account of her life in the trump family and what she came to learn about her uncle and what she describes as his manifest unfitness for office. we learned that her book did not sell 800,000 books in the first week like john bolton, her book sold nearly 1 million copies in one day. sorry, mr. bolton. mary trump will have your seat and congratulations for a bang up summer for simon and shuster for people saying horrifying things about what they know about this president from close proximity to him. as i mention, we will be joined by mary trump and you should know, that before she wrote the book. she was not exactly in hiding. this is obviously her debut as

an internally known person. but, she has pursued a distinguished academic career, and including recognition as a literature student at tufts, which may complain why she is a notably good writer which i think is helping sell the book. she earned her ph.d. in clinical psychology and has been in the press in the past. as a lower profile, but good standing member of the famous trump family. she was notably in the press before and an instance where something went very, very wrong inside that family. and you should know this for context. this is, i'm gok quo -- i'm goi the new york daily news from december of 2007, on june 25th, 1999, fred trump one of the last of new york city's major post war builders died at age 93

after suffering from alzheimer's disease, and fred, ii told the 650 mourners that had his grandfather was a generous mn who had always shown an underlying responsibility to those in need. fred, iii was glad he was invited to speak, it was an acknowledgment to his dead father's memory and to the fact that no matter what, he and his sister were family. while fred delivered his eulogy, his wife lisa sat in one of the front pews, pregnant with their third child. lisa went in to labor that night. all seemed well at first but 48 hours after baby william trump was born, he turned blue in his mother's arms. his body stiff ending and then shaking uncontrollably. it was the first of many devastating seizes to come. he had brain scans, spinal taps, and blood tests and visits to

medical centers. doctors diagnosed him with infantile spasms. they were not sure what he would be he would be able to do in his life. fr fred, iii said that whatever the baby needed would be covered by the medical plan. we were so relieved when robert called. fred, iii, remembered. robert's call to fred and lisa was followed by a july 19th letter from the trump company lawyer to the family insurance broker saying, please instruct precise, the trump company medical plan, to pay 100% of all costs relating to baby william's

care, notwithstanding any plan limits percentage number of visits or maximum dollar amount and whether or not they are not deemed by precise to be medically necessary. so, the baby was born in june, 1 1999, the day of fred trump, senior's funeral. lisa trump goes in to labor, baby william was born. the family was promised in writing to pay through the family business health plan, 100% of all of the health care needs for this little boy and their family. in the meantime though, there was the matter of grandfather trump's will. remember, he passed away in june, '99 and there ended up being a dispute in the family whether or not all five of his kids, including the descendents of his he wouldest son freddie, who had died. there was a dispute of whether or not all five of fred trump's

kids would receive equal shares of the grand trump's will or would only the four surviving four kids split the estate. well, donald trump, the current president was one of the surviving four kids. and from what you know about him, you can imagine how he felt about that dispute. right? if you cut out the descendents of his deceased elder brother freddie, well, donald's share of the inheritance would be that much larger. and only split four ways instead of five. as that dispute percolated in the family, donald trump and his surviving siblings decided to pull the one nastiest little lever that they had, over their deceased brother's kids. they explicitly moved to cut off the medical coverage for the little baby boy with the seizure disorder. fred, iii received a letter telling him that the medical

benefits would end. lisa trump, said, i burst out in to tears. fred said, i just think it was wrong. these are not warm and fuzzy people. they never came to see william in the hospital. our family puts the fun in dysfunctional. and then there's donald trump. asked in an interview with the daily news if cutting the health coverage could look cold hearted given the medical condition of the baby, he told the daily news, i made no apologies. i can't help that. and george washington could not lie about whether or not he cut down the cherry tree, jfk had pt-109, and all presidents have back stories. you know, what they do to get them to the white house. it's part of the lorae, for donald trump, there's that time he cut off the health insurance to his baby boy nephew, as a

hard ball legal tactic to get their share of the money. i cannot tell a lie says george washington about the cherry tree and i can't help that. says donald trump so he can inherit his relative's share of his dad's money in addition on to the millions dollars he was already getting from his dad's estate. so, that makes news in 2000, and mary trump surfaces in the story. at the time, she is a graduate student and she is trying to be supportive of her brother and her brother's sick little boy and she said, my aunt and auunc should be ashamed of themselves and i'm sure they are not. when mary trump's uncle donald would go on to be elected president in 2016, mary trump responded online to the new york times columnist charles below,

he was talking about his dismay with the election results and mary trump responded worst night of my life. that same night, legal analyst lisa bloom wrote, dear world, i'm so embarrassed for my country, please do not judge us too harshly for us and mary trump wrote, we should be judged hash harshly, i just hope we do the work to write this wrong. i grieve for our country. and lisa bloom said we are not leaving to canada, we are fighting like hill for our values and countries in the courts and in the streets and mary trump wrote back to her, one word, one number really, mary trump wrote back to her online that night, "2020" period. well now it's 2020 and mary trump's new book about her family and specifically about

her uncle sold a million copies on the first dave dy of its rel. and the white house did everything it could to stop the book from coming out. threatening and talking all sorts of smack. the president's younger brother, spouted the same anti-first amendment lawyer. they sued mary trump to try to stop the book. and you know, the past financial disputes within the family on which ms. trump and the president have definitely been on opposing sides that tells you, yeah, wow, there's probably personal family bitterness there. you can sort of take it as your grain of salt when you read very unflattering things that she has to say about him. but you know, those financial disputes themselves, she is not hiding them. and they are not just psychology context in terms of

understanding what she has written here. those financial disputes are material to this as news. because part of the story that mary trump has to tell is about the president cheating financially. including trying to cheat members of his own family. those disputes ultimately lead to mary trump having reems of trump family financial documents which turns out contained evidence of decades long schemes carried out by the president and his family to not just evade taxes but to commit serious financial fraud, including some types of financial fraud that may have affected tenants in new york city in a way that continues even to this day. those alleged fraudulent schemes and tax evasion schemes were laid out from those documents that mary trump provided and explained ultimately in a gonzo, huge new york"new york times"

investigation that created legal problems for the president that remains today, as prosecutors have been cleared by the united states supreme court to pursue financial records and tax records for both the president himself and his businesses. just today, new york prosecutors and the president's lawyers were in court arguing about how quickly a subpoena for his financial records can now be served. now the supreme court said is th -- said that he cannot evade the subpoena because he is president. the prosecutors were making the case for how quickly they would like to get the records. and the president's lawyers were arguing how much more slowly they would like the judge to go. tick tock the elections are in november. and tick tock, mary trump's book about her life long knowledge of the conduct and scams of the president, well, that book is out now. and it has sold a million copies and there's a week's long

waiting list to get a copy of the book at major book sellers. that said, you have an advantage, you are here and mary trump will join us to talk about. joining us is mary l trump, she is the author of "too much and never enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man. ms. trump, thank you so, so much for being here. we have been through the wars together technically of trying to get this on the air, thank you for sticking with us and thank you for being here. >> it's an honor, rachel, i appreciate you having me. >> first, let me ask you, in terms of the introduction that i did there and the way that i set this up, if i'm looking at any of that the wrong way, or if i have been misconstruing anything that you were trying to do in terms of the way that you approached the book. i want to make sure that i'm explaining things in terms that you are comfortable with.

>> yeah, it was both accurate and devastating. >> how are you doing since the book has landed? i mean, i imagine you knew that this was going to make a splash but, i can't imagine that you thought it was going to make this big a splash, both in terms of the number of books sold but also, the attention, the national attention that this is brought to you. is this how you thought it would go? >> not even close. it's been extraordinarily gratifying, i have to say. it's been a long time coming. and it has not always been an easy road, so really happy, way beyond my expectations. >> have you heard from anybody in your family or in the white house or the trump organization or anybody since the book came out or since people knew what was in the book. or has it just been basically the legal fight to try to stop you from publishing and other than that, you have been on your own? >> yeah, it's just been the

legal fight and i think that's, that's fine with me. that's appropriate. >> i found myself thinking, in speed reading the book, the first day that i got it and then, rereading it when i found out that i was going to get a chance to talk to you. i found myself thinking of the a cute cogniscence of whether it's a useful thing for you to do this. obviously on election night were despondent that your uncle had won the presidency, and we learn through the book about the deep, dark sort of secrets of the family why you feel he is so inappropriate, so unsuited for the job. and you seem to be resigned to the idea that nothing you say may change people's view of him. that you did not release the book before the 2016 election,

becau you didn't think it would change anybody's mind. how did your state of mind about that question change between then and now, that it was worth putting yourself out there, and taking the risk now? >> that's a great question. there's been quite an evolution and i think we need to start with the fact that the concept of learned helplessness is something that runs very deep in my family and i think there are examples in the book that point to that. um, so, in 2016, literally all i would have had was my own experience and my own voice. and i, there was no reason for me to believe that either of those would have mattered. i thought about it. but, first of all, in the context of all the other things that were going on, that donald was getting away with, from his attacks on a gold star family,

the kahns and serge kovaleski, and a reporter at the new york times and culminating with the access tape, i didn't think anybody would take me seriously. i had a lot of reasons to believe that i would be dismissed as a disgruntled, disinherited niece who had been out of the family to all intents and purposes for almost 20 years and part of it too was thinking that donald was the problem. right. and of course, after the inauguration he would be surrounded by more competent people who understood how government worked and they would protect him and us from his worst impulses. clearly i was wrong to make that assumpti assumption. so it was not just the speed

with which he started up ending norms which he started to do during the campaign. it was the number of people who lined up to help him in that endeavor. which is only grown longer and more egregious as time has gone on. i can't say that there was a last straw, because there have been so many straws. but certainly the horrors at the border, you know, the separating of children from their parents, the torture, the kidnapping, and the incarceration of them in cages was unthinkable, unbearable. and when an opportunity presented itself to me to do something i needed to take a leap. >> our guest tonight is mary trump. her had new book is called "too much and never enough," we will

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you write in a very dramatic section of the book, towards the end about the leap that you took when you decided that you would provide the financial documents that you had to the "new york times" there's a great moment where you describe the report er on suzanne craig from the "new york times" turning up on your door step to ask for your help with this thing that they are working on in terms of trump family finances and you say to her that it's quote, so not cool that you are showing up at my house. and you send her away but you do let her leave her card with you. and i asked susan craig about it and she was very professional and just confirmed that everything that you said was true. and that seemed to me like it was maybe a pivot point for you

too. you initially did not have any interest in talking to her. something happened with you alone, where you decided, you know, what? maybe those documents can help and they should get on out there without even knowing what was in them, you decided to hand them over. what was that process like? >> first of all, the crucial difference was that susan craig extraordinary investigative reporter, was finally giving me something concrete that i could do. i had-- i had totally forgotten about the documents, and they didn't matter to me 20 years ago, why do they matter now? after i asked her to leave and took her card anyway, in an interesting bit of unconscious whim, ispersisted and

called me and wrote a few times and i thought about it. you know, i still was not necessarily going to do anything because it was not even clear to them what would be in these documents, quite honestly. and i didn't feel yet able to. it would have been taking a big risk. not that i necessarily felt that, but it was so amorphous still for me. and then i fractured my fifth metatarcel badly and wound up on my catch for a few months. so i watched far too much tv than was good for me, and was on twitter far too much as well. and watching in real time what was happening to this country. the destruction of institutional

norms the perversion of our institutions that were designed to protect us, the fail you'res of the other branches of government was really weighing on me. and finally one night, i remembered all of the things sue had been telling me and i decided to trust her. and i called her. we had a long conversation and within a week, i was on my way, on my crutches to the office of the lawyer who had represented me all those years ago, and it's a much longer story than i will tell now, but a few weeks later, i left with 19 boxes full of what turned out to be quite explosive documents. >> and they were explosive in ways that you didn't necessarily understand when you decided to hand them over. i mean, part of the "times" reporting and the piece was 14,000 words and they went on to

win the pulitzer prize, they were able to tease out from the records of alleged fraud and criminal tax evasion and again, there's trailing ends of that right now, in terms of the president's potential legal liability. by the time the "times" story came out. did you know what they had, did you know sort of the explosiveness of the alleged misdeeds that they were going to uncover thanks to what you gave them? >> i had no idea. it was extraordinary, i mean, the brilliance of that reporting that, the analysis they did, and the story cannot be over stated. they were anodined documents and they were also incredibly complex. and the financial devices that my family used to cover up certain things that they were doing were not easily decip h

decipherable. so i was utterly blown away. as you know, just objectively by you the story. but also personally to find out just exactly what had happened in the family that i didn't understand at the time, and also, considering it was not just, you know, people in my family did these things that they shouldn't have done. but that they were my aunts and ur uncles who happen to also be my trustees and clearly i did not benefit from the role that they were supposed to play in protecting my financial interests when i was younger. the consequences of that reporting, and of what was uncovered thanks to the documents that you had access to and handed over and that those report ers analyzed.

still, i'm not sure that we understand what the ultimate implication will be. there's statute of limitations questions for whether or not it could ever be criminally charged. >> yeah. >> it does seem to have cost your aunt, her lifetime job on the federal bench. she resigned ahead of a inquiry that would have looked in to her role in the financial schemes and it's potentially linked to both the congressional investigation and the new york prosecutors' subpoenas that have now been green lit by the supreme court in terms of the president's finances and trump organization finances being handed over. do you -- going through what you have been through, learning what you have learned, knowing what your family has done, do you have any expectations in terms of what prosecutors or congressional investigators might find if they got complete, the kinds of access that they went to the records that your uncle is trying to keep hidden?

>> i have no particular insight in to that. you know, nobody has spoken to me about it, essentially my role ended when i handed over the 40,000 pages of documents. but, if this "times" story is anything to go by, there's a lot more to uncover and clearly now that the supreme court made, in my opinion, the correct ruling, there will be many more documents to come. >> let me ask you, mary, about something that you said in an interview with the "washington post" this week, you talked with ashley parker at the "washington post" and he said, she quoted you saying there was knee jerk anti-semitism and knee yerk regulatism in the family. growing up it was normal to hear them using -- generally do you think it was accepted or specifically you heard your uncle donald use that kind of language?

>> just generally, with the older generations, as if it were perfectly common place and ordinary to say such things. i had the benefit of living in jamaica, not jamaica estates and so, i did not share their ideas about race and judeism at all. when you grow up with that, being perfectly normal then, you don't really think twice about it. >> i have to press you on it a little bit. just to ask if the president, if your uncle was an exception to that in your family, or if he -- if you ever heard him express

either use anti-semetic slurs or race i feel slurs, was it a ambient thing your family or did you hear it from him too ? >> yeah, yeah, of course i did. i don't think it should surprise anybody given how racist he is today. >> um, have you heard, have you hard the president use the n-word? >> yes. >> and anti-semitic slurs specifically? >> yes. >> mary trump's new book. too much and never enough is about her uncle the president and her up bringing in the trump family. we will be right back with more. our world-class experts give you the care you need, when you need it. with appointments in as little as 24 hours

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i want to ask you about what i thought was the single weirdest thing in the book. which other reviewers people who

read it and talked about it thought it was weird. i have literally woke up in the night thinking about it. >> i'm sorry. >> it's you -- no, that's all right. i wake up a lot anyway. but, it's the anecdote where you are being introduced to the, not the president, but donald trump your uncle at the time is introducing you to melania, his wife, who then became first lady. he immediately tells melania, in front of you, that you had a terrible drug problem. that you have over come. which is not true. and you correct him in the moment and say, i have never done drugs in my life and you say this, he slid me a look and smiled. he was embellishing the story for affect and he knew that i knew it. she was a total disaster, he said, smiling more broadly. so the reason it sticks with me

is not because he told a weird lie about you doing drugs when you did not do drugs. he voiced the lie in front of you when he knew that it was not true and then seemed to sort of take pleasure in you being helpless before him lying about you. it's psychologically, you are trained in clinical psychology, that is a very weird portrait about what pleasure a person gets from lying, isn't it? >> yeah, it's also a power play. >> hm-mm. >> one, it fits in to his favorite narrative. you know, the comeback is much more impressive if you are coming back from a really awful place in the gutter, like being a drug addict, instead of just having a tough time in life. just as with his comeback, you know, it was the bankruptcies, and the horrible economy, and he was really down for the count so

therefore climbing the summit again was more impressive. it's questionable whether that actually happened. so there's that. it's sort of framing the narrative in a way he prefers. it also makes him the savior, remember that story is told in the context of, and then i gave her a job. so he sort of is taking responsibility in part for my reclaimation, if you will. more than that, it really is a power play. the difference between that anecdote and other things i see happening is most of the time people don't correct him. which completely plays in to his had hand. because then he is, he can do it with impunity. >> in that sort of, the comeback idea there is because he did at one point engage you to

potentially ghost write another one of his ghost written books which would be about the art of the comeback, and it's also telling and fascinating to me that after you spent time at the trump organization and you were, you know, provided materials that you were supposed to sort of use to start ghost writing this book. you write sort of pointedly, it's the last line of one of your chapters that for all that you were allowed to see and all of that you were allowed to witness, including sitting in on his supposed business phone calls where he just put somebody on speaker without, without that person knowing that you were listening in. getting all this access, you write that really at the end of it, you had no idea what he did for a living. that it wasn't. it never became clear to you what his business work was because it never really seemed like he was doing anything. that's fascinating to mempt a lot of people who have taken a look at finances and supposed business background and come up empty and they have been looking

from a distance. you were looking from up close and felt like there was no, there was no actual real business worker ever done by him. >> right. it's also important to remember, it was a very small company. certainly compared to other real estate developers. but, the only work i saw being done was by other people in the office. so, it was pretty fascinating, first of all, his never being willing to sit for an interview with me. but then just having absolutely no insight in to any productive projects that he was engaged in. didn't see any evidence of it. >> mary trump is our guest tonight, her new book just sold nearly a million copies on its fair first day. more ahead, stay with us. st day more ahead, stay with us cranky-pated: a bad mood related to a sluggish gut.

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in terms of the work that he is capable of, you spend this sometime in the book discussing the president's terrible mismanagement of the coronavirus epidemic. and you spend a few pages kind of marveling at the fact that it would not have been hard for any president to be kind of a hero here, right? so use the defense production act and produce supplies and tests and ppe, you just have to listen to the scientific experts and amplify their message and activate the gears of government that deal with this thing. he doesn't, and you marvel about that in the book. and i think the country is stuck on the open question you are asking here. about why and how he has bungled this crisis so badly, just now opening musing that it will go away on its own, as if it's the only thing he is capable of doing. i wonder if you can talk a little bit about why you wrote this part of the book. and what you think the answer

may be to that question about why the president has made all the wrong decisions around this crisis and done so little work to fix anything. >> i thought it was very important to address this because of course, it's ongoing. even at the time i was writing, we were i think, in new york, we were past the worst of it, but it was clear that the rest of the country was not doing what it needed to do. i want people to understand what a failure of leadership this is, and the reason he is failing at it is because he is incapable of succeeding at it. it would have required taking responsibility, which would in his mind, have meant admitting a mistake, which in his mind would

be admitting weakness and in my family, was essentially treated with the death penalty, symbolically. we need to see why so many people allow this, the fact that he is dividing us at the expense of people's lives. what, we are 140,000 americans and counting are dead, and t the -- listen the scientists, wear a mask, stay home. the fact that people are dyii settling for people dying every day, there's states out of control and to curry favor with donald, certain governors are continuing to ignore the science and more people are getting sick

and more people are going to die. it is utterly insane at this point. we need to wake up. and instead of taking it seriously, instead of standing the experts take over, donald is hawking black beans. it would be absurd if it weren't so devastating. >> your uncle, of course, has a very reasonable chance at winning a second term. any incumbent president does, even one with sort of upside down numbers like he has right now. >> uh-huh. >> what do you think the consequences of another four years of a donald trump presidency would be. you write about that in the book as if you are genuinely fearful that a second term could be qualitatively more dangerous for the country than his first term was. >> yeah. and i want to make something

really clear. this is beyond partisanship. this is so beyond party. we need to be thinking about this as americans. we need to be thinking about who we want to be as a people going forward. i hear people say all the time, this is not who we are. this is exactly who we are right now. so continuing along this path, which is exactly what would happen if donald were to be elected in 2020 would, i absolutely believe, be the end of the american experiment. i do not believe there is any coming back from this. there are too many enablers who are, for whatever reason, continuing to enable him. bill barr has gutted the justice department. mike pompeo has gutted the state department. we are in serious, serious danger here. and unfortunately, that is no

longer hyperbolic. that's just the way it is. >> do you share the concerns that some people have voiced that if your uncle loses the election that he might try to not leave the white house, that he might try to hold on to power through some extra dermacratic means, by force, do you think that sort of worry is hyperbolic at this point or is that the sort of thing you are concerned he might resort to. >> i think it's perfectly reasonable to worry about that. like how he responds depends a lot on how, if he loses, how badly he loses. i think the more resounding joe biden victory the less likely it is for donald to stick around. he, as a -- you know, somebody who needs to be right all the time and needs to be winning all

the time will need desperate ly to spin away from a crushing defeat, and i don't know what form that would take, but that, as far as i'm concerned, is the only way to not guarantee but at least give us a better possibility that there will be a peaceful transition after the election on november 3rd. >> okay. we're back with mary trump in just a moment. i have one last sort of difficult-to-ask question that i want to ask her. that is straight ahead. stay with us. at the golden opportunity sales event. lease the 2020 nx 300 for $339 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. my age-related macular degenso today i made a plan with my doctor, which includes preservision... because he said a multi- vitamin alone may not be enough.

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mary, i have just one last question for you, and, again, i want to thank you for spending this much time here and talking with us. i just have to ask given what you are saying about your uncle and what degree you think he'd be willing to go to in order to get what he wants and what you

have done in terms of handing over documents to reporters and what you have said in the book and what id laid out here, i just find myself worrying about you and wondering if you are scared, if you feel like you have put yourself in personal danger by doing what you have done and talking the way that you have and saying the things that you have said that the president obviously doesn't want out there in the world. it is different than some critic who has no relation to him criticizing him in harsh terms. what you are doing is something that is different and comes from a place that's very close to him. i wonder if you feel safe. >> i'm not scared. i'm taking appropriate precautions, certainly, because i am not diluted about potential scenarios. he is in a position of great power. i know my family to be quite

vindictive, and donald has a rather passionate following. but all of that aside, i -- this needs -- i needed to do this. i felt it was my responsibility. i felt it was my obligation, and whatever the consequences are, i'm prepared to deal with them as best i can. >> mary l. trump, the book is called "too much and never enough: how my family created the world's most dangerous man." it is breaking records in terms of books sold on its first day, and it is changing the world as we speak. mary trump, thank you so much for writing the book but also especially being here to help us understand it. come back any time you want to. love to have you back. >> thank you so much, rachel. >> we did ask the white house tonight for a response to mary trump's claims that she has heard the president use anti-semitic slurs and racial slurs including specifically the

n-word. the white house gave us this statement in response. this is a book of falsehoods, plain and simple. the president doesn't use those words. just to be clear, this claim that mary trump says she's heard the president use the n-word and other racist slurs and anti-semitic slurs, that claim isn't actually from her book. it is just something she said in this interview, so them denouncing the book doesn't help. but still we thank the white house for at least giving us the statement. that is going to do it for us tonight. i'm now going to have like ten martintis and try to not think about this for a few hours. god bless us all. now it is time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> after rachel's extraordinary interview with mary trump, we will be joined in a discussion of what we just learned from mary trump by joy reid and tony schwartz. tony was the ghost writer