good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." well, the country has just experienced an insurmountable back to back loss. just hours after the death of civil rights leader, minister and lieutenant to dr. martin luther king jr., c.t. vivii don't know called the greatest preacher to ever live by dr. king, the great john lewis. democratic congressman from georgia and an icon of the several rights movement followed

his friend and civil rights icon into that good night. john lewis 11 years younger than dr. king and a force unto himself and who had been the lone remaining number of the big six who spoke at the march on wug was 80 years old. he died after a battle with stage four pancreatic cancer. born to a family of sharecrop r sharecroppers john lewis became an early leader in the stunts nonviolent coordinating committee where he worked to fight for the rights of black people and organized and several lunch counter sit ins throughout the south. he played an integral role in the civil rights movement and was arrested or jailed at least 40 times throughout the 1960s often putting his very life on the line to progress the rights of black people in america. he was an original freedom writer in 1961, a speaker at the historic march on washington in

1963 and gained prominence when he and hundreds of marchers were brutally beaten during the marches on bloody sunday. the images sent shock waves through the country and propelled the civil rights movement to the forefront. johnson introduced a bill to congress that would eventually become known as the landmark voting rights act of 1965. lewis went on to serve more than three decades in the united states congress and received the presidential medal of freedom from president obama in 2011. since his passing there has been an outpouring of praise from admirers and public officials including the clintons, the black caucus and president obama who wrote in a statement that lewis loved this country so much that he risked his life and his blood so that it might live up to its promise. lewis became a powerful voice in

the house caucus and was often called the conscience of the congress. he never stopped making good trouble and fiercely fought for eequality and justice until his very last day. jeff bennett has a look back on his remarkable journey. >> reporter: he was often called the conscience of congress known as a moral leader who demanded respect from democrats and republicans. seen as one of the last unifying forces in national politics. lewis was one of ten children born to sharecroppers in rural alabama in 1940. he grew up on his family's farm and attended segregated public schools. he was inspired as a young boy by the activism surrounding the busboy cots and sermons by martin luther king jr. that he heard on the radio. >> we have a right to march at night any time we want to march. >> reporter: all of it spurring him to become part of the civil

rights movement. organizing sit-in demonstrations at segregated lunch counters in nashville, tennessee. in 1961 joining in the freedom rides which challenged segregation at bus terminals across the south. >> i was not concerned about making history. i just wanted to change things. >> reporter: while still in his 20s john lewis became a nationally recognized leader. >> i grew in the movement to accept a way of love, the way of peace, the way of nonviolence, the way of forgiveness. >> reporter: by 1963 he was dubbed one of the big six leaders of the civil rights movement. at the age of 23 he was an ak tekt of and a keynote speaker at the historic march on washington. but it was in 1965 when lewis helped spear head one of the most seminal moments of the civil rights movement. he led more than 700 peaceful protesters against the edmond

pettis bridge. the group brutally beaten in what became known as bloody sunday. >> i lost consciousness. 50 years later i don't recall how i made it back across that bridge to the little church that we had left from. >> news broadcasts and photographs of the cruelty helping to hasten the passage of the voting rights act of 1965. >> we were taught never to become bitter, never to hate. >> reporter: john lewis' activism continued in congress. >> we have lost hundreds of thousands of innocent people to gun violence. >> reporter: after a mass shooting at an orlando nightclub killed 49 people lewis led a house sit-in trying to force a vote on gun legislation. john lewis often spoke of the good trouble he caused in the 1960s and in the political fight since invoking the courage that

fuelled his life long fight for civil rights. >> when you see something that is not right, not just, not fair you have a moral obligation to do something. >> reporter: jeff bennett, nbc news, washington. >> joining me now by phone is civil rights leader andrew young and ambassador young i want to give you a moment to talk about john lewis, what he meant to you and what he meant to the movement. >> you know, john lewis was one of the saints of the movement. i mean, we were all pretty -- he was younger than i was, but we were all pretty serious. but he was more serious. i think that when we realize we could die doing what we were doing, well, dr. king used to laugh and joke about it and one of the things he'd do all the

time was when people would get nervous about the violence and the bloodshed that was potential, he'd say, well, don't worry, i can preach you into heaven and he'd say all the embarrassing things he -- you know, he could think of. but he made us laugh at the possibility of death. and so i don't see john lewis' death as a tragedy. i think it's something we should celebrate. because i don't think the line between life and death is as big as we think it is and just as martin luther king is still with us today more than 50 years after his death, i think we will never forget the role that john lewis played in helping this nation live out the true meaning of its creeds and c.t. vivian started in 1947 and he lasted till he was 95. so we have a -- if half of the

young people in black lives matter continue for the rest of their lives, there's no trouble, there's no problem that they cannot solve because the spirit of john lewis, the spirit of c.t. vivian, the spirit of martin luther king will be with them even to the end of the age. >> and you know, you make a really good point. john lewis was only 23 years old when he spoke at the march on washington. he was a very young man, much younger than dr. king. he was the next generation younger than you guys and you know, yourself -- >> you know he had started. >> yeah. >> he had started with the sit-ins when he was 18 or 19. >> yeah. yeah. . no, he was young. >> it was all of the fraternity and sororities were doing what they usually do on college campuses and john lewis had a group of about seven or eight

young people on their way to test restaurants that had agreed to desegregate and they just wanted to check and make sure that everything was going according to plan. but he followed up. i mean, it wasn't just -- he wasn't just there when the press was there. he was there every minute of his life. but he joins his wife -- he joins his wife that has been -- died about eight years ago and lilleian lewis from california. >> yeah. >> and she'd been a pose coreac volunteer so they hit it off

very well almost immediately. >> ambassador young, it's such a privilege to talk with you and thank you so much for taking the time this morning. thank you so much. really appreciate. >> congratulations on your new show. >> oh, thank you, sir. really appreciate that. thank you. and joining me now to add to this conversation is civil rights activist diane nash and ms. nash it's a privilege to talk to you as well. you were among the younger members like john lewis of the civil rights movement. talk to us about what he meant, what that activism meant and do you feel optimistic today watching the new generation of the civil rights movement in black lives matter? >> well, john is a couple of years younger than i am. i met him in nashville. i was a student at fisk university and he was at the american baptist theological seminary. in fact, i met c.t. vivian at

the same time. he was at the baptist seminary also and we met at workshops that reverend james lawson was conducting. lawson had been to india and had studied gandhi's movement firsthand and he was in nashville, a student himself at the time and he was instructing people in the community or -- and students, anyone who wanted to learn, really, in the philosophy and strategy of nonviolence. i am a fortunate, blessed person to have had both of these gentlemen in my life. not only as coworkers in the civil rights movement, but as friends also.

they have -- i think we can -- while we are sad and experiencing loss, i am just so grateful that they came this way because the world is a different place since each of them lived. and it's much better. >> yeah. what do you -- what do you make of the -- you know, there are people who are coming out on the other side of the aisle that are praising john lewis, but the fact that, you know, he bled for the voting rights act, the voting rights act was of course gutted by the republican majority and the supreme court and there are people who are blocking it, restoring it, who are praising john lewis today. what would you say to those people who are praising john lewis and not standing up for voting rights? >> unconscionable. hypocritical.

i am so concerned for our country right now because the -- the people who have -- we have elected to represent our interests, too many of them forsake the interests of the country and are pursuing their own personal interests. and i think this is really a danger period for our country. we need to get back to one person, one vote. and if we're serious about democracy we're going to eliminate all the voter suppression and the various means of giving one citizen more of an advantage than the other. i think that's totally in keeping with martin king and john and c.t. and my husband,

jim who was very instrumental in the voting rights act. i think that that's what they would say. john was -- i just want to say a few words about his determination. we were together in the nashville student center committee with a direction to the sit-in in 1960, and i just want to say that both c.t. and john were really pillars of the movement. if there was a demonstration, they were there. if there was a meeting they were there. john would come into meetings with bandages on his head. a number of times he did that. there was real dedication because sometimes we'd meet after dinner and would not

finish our business and we'd call a meeting for the following morning at 6:00 a.m. and both of them were always there. it took a lot of determination, a lot of courage and both of them were genial, they were pleasant people. john would dance and sing and there was a boyishness about him and i'm just grateful to have been friends for all my adult life really. >> yeah. and you know, you were known so much as the strategist along one of the many great strategists in the movement at the time as young as you were. can you just give some advice to young black lives matter activists now on how to be as effective as you all were as

john lewis, as c.t. vivian were as they're fighting this fresh battle for civil rights and voting rights in this country. >> i would say to young people, do not allow people who want to use violence to hi jack your efforts. very often they are provocateurs sent in by the opposition. they want to take the moral high ground away from you. i think violence on the part of some allows people to blame everybody for the violence and it gives an excuse. if the police can say the demonstrators attacked the police, then many people will say well, the police have a right to attack them.

and if you think you're going to win anything through violence when you have -- when you've come up against the police, the national guard and ultimately the military, you cannot do it. that's really dumb. so i think you need to keep control. if there are people who are intending to be violent, surround them, try to stop them, warn them and if you can't, take pictures of them and turn them over to the police. but i think that these people put everybody including the right to demonstrate in jeopardy and in danger. so if i were you i wouldn't allow that for one minute. >> well, diane nash, it's always such a privilege -- that is good advice. you're so great and thank you so much for talking with us this morning and giving us some of

your time and i know this was a great friend of yours so condolences to you. thanks very much. >> thanks, joy. bye. >> and joining me now is reverend rafael warnok. he's a candidate for a senate seat in the state of georgia. i want to give you the same opportunity to reflect on john lewis and t.c. vivian's life and how they reflected to this moment. >> thank you so much, joy. it's good to be here with you even on such a sad occasion. you know, as you were talking to ambassador young and then diane nash i was thinking about how fortunate we are especially here in tlaentd. atlanta is a city where we walk among giants, pass by them every day and so our hearts are hurting every day. we're broken as we consider and take stock of the lives of john lewis and c.t. vivian giants who literally walked among us.

but at the same time, i feel incredibly blessed that we had the opportunity and the experience of brushing up against greatness and in a moment like this, even as we weep, we are inspired and encouraged to fight the good fight. sometimes i would talk to c.t. vivian and he would speak about facing death and he was laughing as he told the story about his confrontations with death. and john lewis, a man who endured police brutality on a bridge in order to win for us the right to vote and all these years later we're fighting against police brutality and fighting to maintain the power of our democracy through the right to vote. so we honor them by continuing that work. it is as urgent as ever. >> and what do you make of -- i'll ask you the same question that i asked ms. nash. you know, you have people like

mitch mcconnell who are putting out very lovely statements written probably by staff about john lewis. lots coming from both sides of the aisle but you are aspiring to head to the united states senate. if mitch mcconnell is majority leader or even minority leader he's been blocking the restoration of the voting rights act which was gutted by a conservative majority on the supreme court. this is the very thing that john lewis left his blood on that bridge for. what do you make of the fact that people are putting out statements lauding this man while they are also continuing to fight against voting rights? >> yeah, that's right and i'm running for the united states senate and even as i run i'm inspired by the conscience of john lewis and so many others like him. i think about elijah cummings whom i also knew. i have to tell you as pastor of the church, the spiritual home of martin luther king jr. i've

seen this year after year, time and time again. every year during dr. king's holiday people offer pie yas platitudes to his memory. they try to remember him and dismember him at the same time. you cannot honor john lewis while at the same time standing in the way of voting rights. this is what his life was all about and so i know that there are folk who are talking about renaming the bridge and we ought to do that. he definitely deserves it. but i -- i want us to think about how john lewis would consider the issue. for him it was never about him. it was about the cause. and so we would make a mistake if we renamed the bridge but kept -- but didn't do the thing it is we need to do to protect voting rights. we ought to strengthen the voting rights act and reauthorize it. this used to be a bipartisan

issue and sadly, john lewis, the patron saint of voting rights hailed from a state that is ground zero for voter suppression. so we've got to push against that in the coming months. we've got to fight for the integrity of our democracy with strength and vigor and commitment that he brought to the fight. that's the best way for us to honor john lewis. >> and just before i end with you, do you have any messages for the governor of your state, bryan kemp who has you said got into office through what many believe was extensive voter suppression and the denial of voting rights and now has won high office and is using it to sue mayors including the mayor of atlanta to try to stop them from protecting people from covid-19 when covid-19 is disproportionately killing black people. do you have a message for him because i'm sure he will also put out a lovely statement about john lewis at some point.

anything you want him to add and want him to think about as his staff is composing that statement. >> >> bryan kemp needs to be reminded that there's some things bigger than politics. he's playing an ugly cynical game of politics. the mayor of atlanta is the duly elected leader of the city. she's doing the best she can to protect her citizens, and he's literally banding, if you will, in the courthouse door trying to prevent this from rappinhappeni. you cannot honor john lewis and dishonor his memory at the same time. african americans are impacted by this virus and we've got to stand up for a moment like this and the congress that will be celebrating john lewis needs to pass the heroes act so that americans do not have to choose between saving their vote and saving their lives. that is unconscionable.

and so this is an inflection point for our country. we have a decision to make about the direction that we want to go in and i hear john lewis and i see c.t. vivian and so many others, fanny how hamer, blam woman who stood up saying i am sick and tired of being sick and tired. i see us rushing on to fight the big fight so our country might live up to its high ideals. >> good luck in your coampaign sir. thank you so much. >> gone yacongratulations on yo show. >> thank you very much. i'm sure your sermon tomorrow is going to be everything. i want to now welcome mr. cobb. i'm going to give you some time just to reflect on these two deaths, the same day within hours of one another, c.t.

vivian and of course the great john lewis. these two great men who have passed in tandem together. tell us what that means to you and give us some historical perspective. >> well, you know, i'm glad you mentioned history because i'm a historian in addition to being a journalist and you know, these are primary sources, you know, these are people who were there in the moments. these were actors on the stage of history who helped move the country in a direction that was more beneficial for people who had been locked out and excluded from american democracy for time and memorial. and so it's a huge loss in that sense and you know, in addition to the kind of historical context of it, you know, i was a constituent of john lewis' for 12 years when i lived in his district in atlanta and he was significant in the fight of the civil rights movement but also

very much involved with his district and with the needs of the communities there and the attempts to try to make sure that a community that had a great deal of prosperity but also had poverty and lack of opportunity. he fought against those things and if you were around the district you would see him. you would know that he was actively involved in all of this and so it's a loss on multiple levels. and if c.t. vivian which is another iconic figure of the civil rights movement and the work that he did in nashville and so on, something he said has always stuck with me and i use it as a reference when i'm in a classroom and i'm talking to students about the ethos of the civil rights movement and you know, the 1980s he sat for an interview with the documentary series "eyes on the prize" and a simple question they wanted to

know why they risked their lives, you know, why they faced down police dogs and the terror of white supremacy in the south and he said something very profound. he said, rattlesnakes don't commit suicide and baseball teams don't strike themselves out. meaning that if you wanted to see a change in the world, you were going to have to countenance a particular amount of danger and on the other side of the danger was the change that you were hoping to achieve. and so you know, just, you know, a great deal that could be said about the contributions of all of them. they leave a gigantic void. >> i was watching yesterday, i rewatched the james bald win based documentary and it talked about these martyred men, you know, malcolm, martin and evers and the fact they never got to

be old. the thing about a john lewis or a c.t. vivian is they actually got to mature into senior citizens and in a way, that is almost the most subversive thing they did which was to survive and to live to old age. and so in a way, i don't know if that strikes you the same way. i'm so sad that he is john. you know, that elijah cummings is gone but these are young civil rights leaders who actually got to age. >> yeah. and i would add reverend lowery to that group as well. >> yes. >> and so i think it's a very different burden, you know, for people who were working in reverends -- excuse me ambassador young talked about how they made light of the possibility of death and that was, you know, a profound burden for them to have to bear at that point in their lives but it's a very different burden to have to do the grinding work of fighting

against the tendency of this country to revert back to its worst habits year after year after year after decade after decade for the entirety of your life. and i think that your earlier question i think that's what makes it so obscene, you know, one of the worst disrespects is for your enemies to praise you. and so for people who have gutted the voting rights act, who have overseen the re-orrick strags of a regime in which african americans have disproportionate difficulty in registering their voices within the democracy, for those people to have the temerity to praise john lewis is just unconscionable. >> there's been a lot of talk about whether that bridge should be renamed. the bridge that john lewis bled on. there's a big movement to try to rename that bridge for john lewis. i think that would be a great idea. with all the statues that have

been topple around the country and it's happening all around the world too but getting rid of these con federal statues and renaming and stripping out the names of confederate military bases. should there be a statue to john lewis in atlanta as a former atlantan? >> sure. i mean, i think very notably a statue on andrew young on international boulevard of ambassador young and i think it would be a great compliment for john lewis, congressman john lewis to be memorial ietzed in such a way in his district. i certainly think that there will be a great deal of support for it there. >> yeah. that would be a stat choose that's worth maintaining and paying for with our tax dollars. thanks for taking some time this morning. >> thank you. >> now joining me is bishop william barber. he's the author of the book "we

are called to be a movement." your thoughts on the passing of these two great men at the same time really, a few hours apart. c.t. vivian and john lewis. >> you know, he lived faithful unto death. both of them did and the question is how do we emulate them? i was reading one of john's speech speeches. we march today for jobs and freedom. hundreds and thousands of our brothers are not here for they are receiving starvation wages or no wages at all. it is true that we support the administration's civil rights bill, but we support it with great reservation. that's a leader. and when we think about today for this nation, it's not time for the platitudes. if you want to honor john lewis, it's been 2,580 plus days since the voting rights act was gutted. expand it, restore it in full if you want to honor john lewis. don't just pass a hero's bill

that as one woman says still makes us feel like zero. make sure you add sick leave and unemployment and health care and rent forgiveness and moratoriums against people's utilities being cut off. if you really want to honor john lewis, then we have to make sure that we remember the words he spoke at the march in washington, the words he lived by and we cannot merely play around the edges. you know, he also said, joy, he said on that day in '63 by and large american politics is dominated by politicians who build their careers on immoral compromises and ally themselves with social economic and social exploitation. even the way we honor his life and mourn his death will say a lot about this nation. right now in john lewis' name, we should pass full health care. in john lewis' name, living

wages, fully restore the voting right and it could be done immediately because we found trillions of dollars for corporation so this is a time not merely to honor the tune of john lewis but the life. >> and how ironic is it for you that on the streets of portland, oregon as we are honoring john lewis in death, there is bull connerism taking place in the streets of an american city, the president of the united states has wrapped himself in the mantle of walter hedley, the racist miami police chief who said when the looting starts the shooting starts. that kind of violent state policing are now being done by a secret police force that is operating without showing who they are and essentially kidnapping american citizens. how does that jive with the fight that john lewis fought, the fact that that is still

happening on the day we are honoring him in death? >> yeah, it's ironic. it's irresponsible but it's inevitable with the kind of leadership we've seen president trump and mitch mcconnell give that plays itself to racism and to authoritarianism. it is dangerous and thinking about c.t. vivian, remember that clip when he stood up in full of bull conner and he said why are you following this guy? he's leading you down the way of hitlerism. that kind of tenacity is this powerful thing. c.t. vivian looking at conner who is doing some of the same things we're seeing today but he didn't turn to the other guy but he called conner a fascist in his face. we have to say this this is nothing more than a nuance of fascism that we're seeing. >> my final question to you. you're talking and you talk a lot with members of the congress, of the house and senate because there's a bill

called h.r. 1 that does a lot of what you're talking about in terms of restoring voting rights and making it easier for people to vote which is what john lewis bled for which would increase the amount of money that's going to individuals who are facing the coronavirus crisis. should that just be renamed the john lewis bill and forced on to the floor of the united states senate over mitch mcconnell's objections? >> well, i think it should. i think we need an omnibus to be able to take the top three things that he focused on. that is living wages, voting rights and health care but we've got to go in and look at it and make sure it lives up to what john lewis would want. we don't need a voting rights act that has any ways that states can go around it. we don't need a voting rights act when you pass it it doesn't cover all of the states. we have too much voter suppression going on. let's have a john lewis omnibus bill. let's deal with voting rights, let's deal with living wages and health care and not deal with

platitudes. the bible says too often we love the tunes of the profit which means we don't love them while they live it. we truly love john. do not say all of these false words. let's do what he was doing in his life all of his life and if they don't do it, let the masses continue to move until we see fundamental change. that's the only way to truly honor him, c.t. vivian, dr. king or any of those that gave their lives that we might live. >> amen. always great to talk the with you. now joining the kofrgs is senator cory booker. i don't know if you were able to hear the bishop but there's a lot of talk coming out of your republican colleagues in the united states senate including the majority leader, very nice words to john lewis but it is striking to hear mitch mcconnell's staff written words

when he's blocking voting rights and when the republican right is still fermenting voter suppression as a way to win including in the state of georgia where bryan kemp will put out a wonderful statement i'm sure. how does that strike you when you hear that? >> it's painful and this was the power and the beauty of john lewis is he really from the time he was a teenager to his last moments was a ferocious fighter and don't mistake his towering humility and his deep abiding kindness in many ways those were what made him so impactful because they were combined with an unrelenting insistence upon justice and a demand of us all that we get in the way, that we cause trouble. remember, he is the guy that led the sit-in on the floor demanding common sense gun

safety reforms. he was the person that was still giving fiery speeches from the floor calling to account these very people you're mentioning for doing nothing, for being obstacles, to being dams holding the flow of justice. so i -- i agree with reverend barber who is in many ways of the same spirit, we must prove that we are his legacy, that we are john lewis' legacy. we have a choice to be his legacy or not. to be his legacy means to be like him and to engage in the kind of sacrifice, service and unrelenting demand for this nation to live up to its most wanted words. >> you know, in the media business there is a thing you do, right, where you look for a statement from x, from the president. he hasn't said much. he's golfing this morning and enjoying a round of golf which h he's done hundreds of times while being president trump.

i think he's doing the right thing by not saying anything. he's cast himself as bull conner in this narrative. it wouldn't make sense for bull conner to eulogize dr. king so it doesn't make sense for him to laud john lewis. am i wrong in saying that? him saying nothing is probably his best bet. >> i don't think you're wrong but i just want to challenge all of us that for john, you flknow it wasn't about the -- as king would say the violent actions or the bad people. for so much of it john was about the silence and inaction of the good people. and him calling to the conscience as we just heard refz rend barber talk about c.t. vivian to calling not to those central figures of obstruction and bigotry, but calling to those folks who really have power, that they're not utilizing. what are you doing? john lewis showed a level of

courage. he was called one of the bravest people in the civil rights movement not just the times he was arrested but he was beaten savagely because he was willing to continue to get in the way to stand up and he did it with such humility and just such a unbelievable commitment to principles of nonviolence and love. so when you hold your own life up to his you have to question yourself, am i honoring him with words or am i giving the greatest hon moor to try to be e him in his life. one of the most funny moments for me was when i got a call from skip gates to do his show "finding your roots." i was excited selfishly wanting to explore my family and then he told me the show was going to partner me with john lewis and i immediately shut up and my glee disappeared because it was exactly what i expected when

they did our two bios back to back. john lewis, literally bled the southern soil for freedom and then it switches to my background. cory booker growing up in new jersey riding his big wheel. it was just -- i mean, i was just like shut down. i grew up to a parents with privileges that he bled for. he grew up poor, dirt poor as he would tell you preaching to chickens. i grew up with a nice football scholarship to an elite university that generations couldn't go to. so the questions we have to ask ourselves is if we want to honor him, can we better approach his level of sacrifice, his level of service? as the great booker t. washington said, don't judge a man by what he's accomplished but by how far he had to climb. this is a man that every inch of

ground that he gained was a testimony to his will, not for personal accomplishment, but for the greatest of all god's calling which is to love others, to be an agent of love and justice. so i -- my generation has a lot to account for, a lot to account for. i mean, we drink from wells of freedom and liberty and opportunity that we did not dig. and the question is will we get dumb, fat and happy in the blessings we did not earn or will we prove worthy of them by showing the same levels of commitment and sacrifice. so i'm angry as john was. anger is a productive emotion. i'm not angry at simply the donald trumps or the mitch mcconnells. what makes me more hurt is that all the good people in this country, all the power that we have, that we haven't used it adequately to preserve the rights that his generation gained that then he had to watch

become eroded with the -- with the gutting of the voting rights act in the shelby decision. eroded with state after state from texas to north carolina without even the shame of hiding it in their e-mails as one federal judge said that they were with a surgical precision writing laws to exclude african americans from voting, for him to have to live to see his legacy from my generation that didn't show the same commitment to those principles to preserve it. so now the question is simple before us. is will we be his legacy? will we rise to his example and insist and demand that this country that's still dragging its feet to justice, pick up the pace and join the march and finally make this the nation of liberty and justice for all. >> very well said. senator cory booker, thank you very much. i had a big wheel too.

we're both genxors. it's always great the to talk to you. >> congratulations on your show, by the way. it is -- as you said and showed great pictures of one of your heroes i saw on your social media, stamps of her, you were paying tribute to your ancestors with your continued rise. i'm just so proud of you and grateful for you if that's appropriate to say. i'm just thankful for your thoughts. >> thank you. that's very kind. thank you very much. i truly appreciate that. now is jonathan k. part an opinion columnist for the "washington post." we're doing all friends and incredible people this morning. jonathan, i understand you had one of the last if not the last interview with john lewis before he passed. talk about that and talk about john lewis' legacy in your view.

>> so i've interviewed congressman lewis, i don't know how many times. at least four times. most recently probably before this last time in june last year. but when the documentary film makers of john lewis "good trouble" which is out now on netflix they called me, they e-mailed me and said hey, would you be interested in talking to john lewis? i used every -- any opportunity to talk to john lewis. i leapt at the chance. who wouldn't leap at the chance to sit with an angel? and we talked about the documentary and the life he led -- or the life at that point he was leading and when you talk to john lewis over the years and you listen to his stories you've heard all the stories before, but you revelled in hearing them again.

but this time was different because i was on the bridge with him for the faith and politics institute civil rights pilgrimage back in march and being on that bridge with him then and with the members of congress there, people were silently crying because we all knew. you could just feel it. you knew it, that this could possibly be the last time with this great man on that sacred spot and so to talk with john lewis last month about the documentary, about what it meant to him, about the time that we are in right now with young people, all -- lots of americans, millions of americans taking to the streets around the country in cities big and towns small, and what that meant to him and you know, congressman lewis for all the trials and tribulations and sacrifices that he made in his life on behalf of

this country, he was paren yally optimistic. he believed in this country. he believed in the american people. he believed in our capacity to do good, and he -- he saw himself as just a tiny part of the effort to make us live out to our -- live up to our ideals in our founding documents. he truly i called him an angel before and now that he's gone, it really is amazing that i was able to spend that much time with someone so great. >> yeah. yeah. i mean, your emotion is i think shared by so many people who are watching, jonathan. and you know, i want to ask you about this pairing of john lewis and president obama, because one of the most profound things in the world was for somebody like john lewis who was so heroic in fighting just for the right of

black people to vote to then live to see this first black president, to bond with him. they became very close. what was that relationship -- what was the meaning of that relationship in your view? >> i'm going to try to get through this answer without completely breaking down. because anyone looking at the video now or seeing that iconic instantly iconic picture of the two of them embracing at the foot of the edmun pettus bridge. there that picture and in the video you're seeing now. you're seeing the history. you're focused on john lewis and president obama and you can see reverend sharpton out there but surrounding them are other people who are from selma who walked across the bridge that day with him, those people are alive. that is what is so astounding about what we're seeing right now, what we're living through. we look at him as history, but

up until last night he was living history. he was our connection to a past that isn't really past for a lot of people in this country. we still have a lot of civil rights icons who are with us. we have a lot of civil rights icons who you don't even know because they were among the throngs of everyday ordinary americans but black americans who were petitioning their government to recognize them, to recognize their dignity, to recognize their humanity. for john lewis to see a president obama, a black president must have filled his heart with joy and pride and also vindication because the election of barack obama was vindication of what he went through on that bridge, what he went through when participating

in those lunch counter sit-ins, the freedom rides, and everything that came after that. you know, our friend valerie jared, former senior advisor to president obama tweeted out a picture of president obama, congressman congressman lewis, i believe ct vivian, now the late ct vivian is also in that picture. you can see congressman lewis with a handkerchief, dabbing his eyes, crying. imagine what that must have felt like. imagine. think of all the things you -- and by you, i mean anyone watching. something that you dreamed of, hoped for, fought for, only because you thought it was the right thing to do, and you hoped it would happen. and yet there you are, sitting next to that dream becoming reality. imagine how you would feel if your dream came true.

and now think of what congressman lewis felt in that moment. >> yeah. >> that relationship is one t t that -- and there where president obama was giving then congressman lewis the medal of freedom. again, thereto, the sweep of history. that, right there, shows the capacity of this country for greatness. and it should also give us hope in this moment that we are in that we can achieve that greatness again. again, think of who john lewis was when he was born. think of what america was like when john lewis was sitting at those lunch counters and riding on those buses and getting clubbed in the head at the foot of the edmuchlt nd pettus bridge and speaking at the march on washington. imagine what america was like then. and look at where it is today. we are a little better than we

were then. and in my view with him, i asked him, because having looked at the cycle of his life, and the fact that history is cyclical. frederick douglas went through the same thing. he was born into slavery, escaped, became the grast order of the 19th century and lived long enough to see all of those gains, reconstruction, all snatched back and portrayed. you can read all about it. and the same thing happened with john lewis. he fought for all these things only to see the voting rights act -- only to see the voting rights act gutted, among many other things. now you've got black people in the streets, white people in the streets, demanding justice. but, invariably, they are going to see their demands for justice thwarted. they're going to see setbacks,

just as john lewis did. i would ask him, what would you say to them to give them, to buck up their courage, to propel them forward? and i'm not going to remember the quote exactly, but he said, you have to use your little time on earth to basically do as much good as you can. so that when you leave, you've left -- you have left this place better than when you found it. and there is no arguing that congressman john lewis left this world better than he found it. >> indeed. so well said. jonathan capehart, thank you so much for sharing that this morning. that was brilliantly said. i love the fact that john lewis got to see it for edgar, malcolm and martin. he got to see it. thank you so much, jonathan. appreciate you. >> sure. >> joining me now by -- thank you. joining me now by phone is civil

rights icon reverend jesse jackson. thank you so much for joining us this morning. you were there. you knew these men. tell us what john lewis meant to yo you. >> congratulations on your show, joy. let me get that out first. >> thank you, sir. >> we broke out the bubble of segregation. we march ed. we say heroes and champions when they win, they wrap the people's shoulders. john was a hero. those who marching. police patrol, controls.

so turn that into political change. >> and what advice would you give to young -- the next john lewises? people who want to follow in the work that you guys did, that the civil rights movement did. what advice would you give to the next john lewis? >> the power of voting. you know, august 6th was an interesting day. the right to vote. power in the vote. i also want to shout out to ct vivian. ct vivian, john lewis, back-to-back-to-back. it's a painful -- but boy did they leave their mark on time.

>> they did. they did, indeed, sir. as have you. reverend jesse jackson, thank y you, sir. appreciate your time this morning. more "am joy" as we remember john lewis and ct vivian after the break. is and ct vivian after the break. how about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card.

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>> trying to take us back to another time and another period. we've come too far and made too much progress to go back. with this piece of legislation, we will continue to go forward. welcome back to "am joy." john lewis, civil rights icon, great hero of american history and friend to this show has died. he was 80 years old. lewis had been battling stage

four pancreatic cancer. few american leaders embody the spirit of john lewis. bloody sunday, where he was brutally beaten. it was a key turn point in the civil rights movement, spurring the passage of the landmark voting rights package. as a member of congress, he was a forceful prominent voice known for delivering fiery rebukes against the trump administration. fighting and imagining a better america, even until his final days. for a nation still grappling with racial violence and a relentless pandemic. this morning, former vice president joe biden released a statement that reads in part, we are made in the imagine of god and then there is john lewis. how could someone in flesh and blood be so courageous, so full of hope and love in the face of

so much hate, violence and vengeance? perhaps was the spirit that found john as a young boy in the deep south dreaming of preaching the social gospel, the work ethic his sharecropper parents instilled in him and that stayed with him. the convictions of nonviolent civil disobedience he mastered from dr. king countless, fearless leaders in the movement, or the abiding connection with the constituents of georgia's 5th district he loyally served for decades or perhaps it was that he was truly one of a kind. into making good trouble. >> sometimes i hear people saying nothing has changed, but for someone to grow up the way i grew up in the cotton fields of

alabama, to now be serving in the united states congress, makes me want to tell them, come and walk in my shoes. my name is john robert lewis. i saw segregation, discrimination and wanted to do something about it. >> john lewis came from humble roots as the son of sharecroppers in alabama. as a young man i think he was chosen by god for leadership. >> i was grow iing up, i saw th signs that said white men, colored men, white women, colored women. i asked my father, my grandfather, my great grandparents why. they said boy, that's the way it is. don't get in the way. don't get in trouble. i got in trouble. >> there was something deep down within me, moving me, that i could no longer be satisfied or go along with an unequal system. >> i remember standing with president kennedy when i was 23. i met dr. king when i was 18,

rosa parks when i was 17. and all these people made me a better person, a stronger person. >> he organized the freedom rides, sit-ins and voter registration drives. >> and he emerged as one of the most courageous and important student leaders of the american civil rights movement. >> i was not concerned about making history. i just wanted to change things. >> i have a dream today. >> john was also one of the planners of the great march on washington. >> brother john lewis. >> and was the youngest speaker to address the audience on that historic day. >> we do not want our freedom gradually. we want to be free now. >> i have never seen a crowd like that before, never spoken to a crowd like that before. >> wake up, america. wake up! >> i was only 23 years old. >> one sunday in 1965, he set out to lead a march from selma to montgomery. >> john lewis led them out of

the church, on a mission to change america. >> we came here to protest an unjust system denying blacks the right to vote. our country will never, ever be the same because of what happened on this bridge. >> we're marching today to dramatize to the nation, dramatize to the world that hundreds and thousands of negro citizens of alabama, but particularly here in this area are denied the right to vote. >> it's fate and history coming together in a singular place. >> there are places and moments in america where this nation's destiny has been decided. selma is such a place. >> we were determined. we were organized. we were disciplined. and we were committed to the way of peace, the way of love. we were nonviolent. we were prepared to die for what we believed in.

>> they stampede us with whips, horse horses, they tear gassed us. they turned our nonviolent protest into blood. >> 50 years later, i don't recall how i made it back across that bridge. >> their cause must be our cause, too. it's all of us who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry and injustice. and we shall overcome. >> five months later, congress passed the voting rights act. >> the american people were ready for the congress and the president to act. we made them ready. >> all of the people should have a right to participate in a democratic process. they should all have that elementary right to register and vote. >> the voting rights act of 1965 has been the lifeblood of the

movement. >> america and the world need more of what is in john lewis' heart. >> my philosophy is very simple. when you see something that is not right, not fair, not just, you have a moral obligation to say something, to do something. stand up. speak up. speak out. >> if not us, then who? if not now, then when? it's a question john lewis has been asking his entire life. generations from now, when parents teach their children what is meant by courage, the story of john lewis will come to mind. an american who knew that change could not wait for some other person or some other time. >> it doesn't matter whether we're black, white or latino, asian-american, african-american, it doesn't matter if you're straight or gay. we are one people, we are one family. we are one house. >> it's so important to remember

that history. there were four attempts to pass a voting rights act, to allow black americans to vote. 1866, 1957, 1964. it was john lewis' beating on that bridge, along with those other brave young people, college students, just above college students, 20-year-olds, who bled on that bridge. john lewis' blood paid for that 1965 voting rights act. for those praising john lewis for standing in the way of restoring that act, think about that, his blood paid for it. there's a direct way for you to do that rather than give out a statement. fyi. erin, if i understand it, you wrote the ap's biography or obituary of john lewis. what struck you most about his biography?

>> well i actually -- back in march. to signify this moment -- >> i'm going to hold you for just one moment, errin. there's something going on with your audio. we're going to fix your audio, because we really want to hear from errin. i'm going to flip over, instead, to erica alexander, my friend and producer of the documentary "john lewis: good trouble." let's make sure we have your audio. do we have you, erica? >> yes, hello, joy. can you hear me? >> yes, i can hear you. good morning, erica. this documentary that you produced, this project that really just came out, it really came in good time, right? "good trouble" came in good time. talk about the process of making this documentary. jonathan talked a little bit

about interviewing john lewis for it. tell us about the process of making this documentary about this great man. >> well, first of all, when i heard he had passed, all i could think about was peace be still. he was such a beautiful man. he was a good man. and we were making a film about someone who had already made his life. so, we just needed to get out of the way. i give all thanks to dawn porter, who directed this documentary. she so brilliantly put him in the spotlight. for so long, john lewis has been the supporting player in other people's story and "good trouble" is his show t allows the audience to finally focus and learn about him. he gets the opportunity to tell us about his life in his own words. we get to hear about john miles, who i send my love to, his son,

and his beautiful wife, his brothers and sisters who were all there. we get to learn about not only how he went over that bridge and got his head bashed in on that fateful day that nearly killed h him, but also the fact that he was so young when he was in the jim crow south as a freedom rider, and what those teenagers who were the black lives matter of their time did. we also get to see his walk as a grown man. and you were right to see that we didn't get to see the rest of them grow up. we got to see him grow up and get old, older. and not only show us that he had skin in the game and that he shed the tears and blood to keep the votes safe, which is so important, but he also was willing to maintain the conditions of freedom and for justice. and we all have to take that blueprint. it is now our leg of the race

and we're grateful we got to see that. >> yeah. i mean, it's such a blessing that you got to work on this project because, as you said, i almost feel like the most subversive thing he did was grow old. people were waving nazi signs at black people who just wanted to go to school, let alone wanted to vote, were lynching people for daring to try to register to vote. what these young, young men and women were enduring wasn't just the klan. it was ordinary citizens who behaved exactly like the klan or were members of the klan at night. it had to be terrifying. did he talk about overcoming that fear? we're watching videos of them being overrun by storm troopers in selma. did he talk about how he overcame the fear to do what he

did? >> yes, joy, he did. he said that he lost his fear. he said, when you don't have fear anymore, you're free. he said that just as plain and simple as could be. you know, i think of john lewis as an urgent care doctor, really. when you see those pictures, you know he was a wartime medic that had correctly diagnosed what was going on in america, but he wasn't just talking about what was wrong with it. he was willing to give us the remedy, and he talked about the vote. and he was there to show us that you have to neurotur and protect it, that democracy is a moving target. we're sitting up here and we think if we vote in one election or two, that will do it, or not at all. and being so cavalier about it. but he said no, nurture it, or it will go away. that's what we have to do. we have to pin it down. right now i think everybody is realizing not only is it our

duty, we must do it or lose everything that people like him fought for. and i called him one of the founding fathers of this country. >> absolutely was. that generation was so great. i think of them as the greatest generation in terms of civil rights. there were so many great men and women all in that generation. the ct vivians, malcolms, martins, medgars. there were so many people. how is it that john lewis, you know, stood up and apart from this incredible crowd of people? he was really one of the youngest, too. he wasn't sort of the old gray beard in the group. he was the baby. >> yeah, he was the baby. he was 17 years old when he wrote that letter to martin luther king, wanting his help to stop the discrimination that he was experiencing.

listen, all i know is that john lewis is one of a kind, but we have others who are coming behind him to do the work now. reverend barber. he talks about that this is the third reconstruction. we can see now a hard line that's been drawn from john lewis' passing to the future. and 2020 is the year of perfect vision. it's ripped the band-aid off of a truly festering, ugly wound, and told people that you must fix this in order to go on. you have to fix it. so i can still hear him saying, when you get into trouble, you have to do something. speak up. get into trouble. get into good trouble. and that drowns out the sadness in my heart, because i truly believe he was here to show us that we would have to run a long ra race.

and for whatever reason, he did it with a happy face, and he did it with love in his heart. i want to send all my love to michael collins, his chief of staff, rachel o'neill, who helped us and was our conduit to the congressman and, of course, his family, who took us in their home and their hearts, and they helped get this made. and dawn porter, who was heartbroken last night. and she's a very strong woman, but she had gotten very close to him, like a daughter. and my love and heart goes out to all of them and especially john miles, who i love, and truly is a wonderful man. and we should see what he's up to, make sure he's okay. >> yeah, absolutely. we will share those condolences and send our love as well from the show to the family. erika alexander, it's always a pleasure. thank you so much for taking the time. the film is called "good trouble." it's a great film. you should watch it.

it's a chance to revel in this great, great man. on demand is where you can get t thank you, erika. i want to now also bring in john meacham. thank you, erika. i want to bring in john meacham, msnbc analyst and author of "his truth is marching on." give us some perfespective on he and john lewis, another fortuitous moment. this is the book you're coming out with now that is on his life. give us some perspective, please, jon. >> well, he is a biblical figure. he believed in the efficacy and the possibility of bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth. and it's a remarkably radical and optimistic vision of life. it's not one that's widely shared in american history.

most religious folks through the years, from pure tan times forward, have believed that the rewards of life, that peace and justice really only existed on the other side of paradise, on the other side of the grave. john lewis believed the opposite. he believed that if we got our hearts and minds in the right place, if we actually acted on what so many christians in particular say they believe, but so rarely actually put into action, that we could, in fact, create that world where justice comes down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream. and for him, it wasn't rhetoric. it wasn't a sermon. it was reality. right he believed fundamentally in what he and dr. king called the beloved community but which is really the kingdom of heaven.

it's the reign of justice. some secular folks may think this is ghazi or sentimental. he was on that bridge. he was on those buses. he was in those bus stations. he was in that house chamber because of the gospel. and never waivered from that faith. and i think one of the most important lessons for today is that there are so many people who look a lot like me, who say they are religious, who say they follow the lord as it has come down to us and the hebrew scriptures and the greek testament, and yet sort of manage to overlook the sermon on the mount because folks are more worried about the supreme court. and one of the things that i think the congressman -- i know he believed till the very end, is that there is a power to a religious vision of the world

that can open our hearts as opposed to leading us to clinch our fists. >> yeah. you know, one of the sort of dichotomies between king and john lewis is that i cannot imagine, even had he been allowed to live beyond age 39, dr. king ever running for office or ever involving himself directly in politics. he seemed to really push that away and stay in the lane of activism, whereas john lewis literally took it from protest to politics and tried to engage the country from the congress, from the political podium as well as from the moral podium. that isn't that usual for civil rights leaders. talk about that for a moment and his power as a political leader. >> it's a great point. one of the things about rosa parks and dr. king and ella baker and septa maclark and ct

vivian, who we're also mourning, bernard lafayette, nash. so many people. the great cloud of witnesses who has led us not far enough yet, but certainly to a more just country than we were when john lewis came out of troy and went up to nashville on a bus in order to go to the american baptist theological ceremony on a hilltop overlooking national tennessee where he would go across the cumberland river and stand up and speak out in the beginning. they all made each other possible, right? so some were great strategists, some were great marchers, some were both. but it is -- it took an entire symphony of people to help

overcome the remarkably stubborn legacies of systemic racism and injustice in this country. if dr. king had survived memphis, what would have happened? as you know, joy, he was kind of gloomy at the end. >> yes. >> i remember jesse jackson talking about how before he went to memphis that last time, he was trying to preach himself out of it. he reflected on maybe i should become the president of moorehouse. the poor people's campaign was unfolding. he was in memphis not for segregation but for economic justice. his focus was that you can't just take -- we live with this now, he and congressman lewis were abouticism not taking down segregation signs but actually

creating opportunity. and if you have the right to vote and you have the right to go some place to buy a hamburger, as el wra baker once said, you have to have the money to buy that hamburger. >> right. >> so you have to have that opportunity. yeah, right? so to me, what congressman lewis always was acting on was from isaiah 6:8, and the voice of the lord said whom shall i send, and who shall go for us? and i said here am i. send me. and one element of this that hasn't gotten a lot of attention is also when you think about by the late 1960s, there had been so much death. there had been so many victories, too, but john kennedy, medgar evers, the freedom riders, dr. king, robert kennedy. he tells the story of having been in the fifth floor suite of

the ambassador hotel in los angeles when senator kennedy is shot to death in the kitchen of june of '68. he just fell to the floor, lewis did, and rocked back and forth saying, "why, why, why?" and and one of the things that led him into politics and kept him in the arena was he believed that he had been spared to press forward with this sense of justice when other men and women had fallen to the forces of hat hate. >> that is an amazing point. one final question for you, jon, before i let you go. it strikes me that when you take a people captive and decide that they're not quite right people, so you can hold them captive, you take yourself captive, too, right? american culture has been captive to the hatred of black

people and the misuse and abuse of them, and indigenous people as well. misuse and abuse of people takes the whole country captive. what do you make of the fact that we haven't been able as a country to fully rectify that, even with so many heroes, so much loss, so many martyrs, so many good men and women like john lewis, who try to pull this country forward morally that we keep sliding back? what is that about? >> you just asked the central question of american history and of life. and in many ways of human history and of life. and this is where i have a more pessimistic vision than congressman lewis did. he believed that if we opened our hearts, if we heeded the

words of the old scriptures, to love one another as we love ourselves, that that would bring about a more just, a more perfect union, and that would overcome the question you're asking. what are the forces that keep us captive, the forces that bind us to an imperfect, selfish, debridy, unjust reality. and those forces, i believe, are about fear and self. i have something that i don't want you to have. and what lewis called us to do -- and you -- one may look different than me and so, therefore, i fear you. you are the other. the trope of john liewis' life was that love has to be the motive force because love will liberate us from that fear, from

that otherness and remind us that, in fact, we are all children of god. that's why i go back again and again to this theological understanding. he is not exp lichlt cable if you try to separate him from his religious faith. first time his picture was in the newspaper was when he delivered a trial sermon and they called him the boy preacher from troy. when he first met dr. king in montgomery with rob abernathy, king said i want to meet the boy from troy and what he meant was the boy preacher. >> right. >> and sermons come and go. here is why we're talking about him right now. for him, his lives with a sermon. his life was witness, and he was willing to die to liberate us from the forces that you

articulated so well there. the fear of the other, the anxiety that someone may get what i have unjustly. therefore, you draw up the bridge. he's all about crossing that bridge, in the drawing it up. >> so well said. jon meacham. put the book up, our producers, please, so we can talk about this. i would love to interview you on the book at another time. jon meacham, you're great. thank you very much. we'll put up the book before we let you go. "his truth is marching on: john lewis and the power of hope." jon meacham, thank you very much. really appreciate you. joining me now, i do believe we have back errin haines. do we have you? >> yes. i believe i'm back, joy. >> back through the power of the telephone, okay. so let's go back and i'll reask

you to talk about what stood out the most to you in writing an obituary for john lewis? >> well, you know, i'm a daughter of atlanta, as you know. i didn't just grow up learning about dr. king. i grew up seeing -- i mean, congressman lewis, andrew young, reverend lowery, james orange, coretta scott king, juanita abernathy around town all the time. the impact of that experience is really immeasurable. it makes the importance of equality, importance of voting, making this country live up to its ideals, that's just the air that we breathe, the water that we drink in atlanta and my approach to journalism, frankly, has been shaped by the lives of people like these. in the loss of congressman lewis, i do believe that the country has lost its north star. john lewis grew up idolizing dr. king, as so many people said and

got to speak alongside his idol on@the march on washington. and he leaves this world as an idol around the country and around the world iechl was struck by what a life and what a legacy this man leaves behind. at 80 years old, he really left it all on the battlefield. you know, i talked to ambassador young last night and he shared with me that he had visited with john lewis last week, and what ambassador young said struck me. it really stayed with me all night. i've been thinking about it a lot this morning. he said if he had to try to put john lewis into one sentence, he would say in his life, john lewis demonstrated that there's real power in humility. and what jon meacham was saying, john lewis wasn't a preacher in the sense of dr. king, reverend jackson or reverend lowery or reverend shuttlesworth but, you

know, he lived his values, he lived his faith. i think that's what we saw in these 80 years. >> reverend lowery, shuttles worth, ct vivian, who passed hours before john lewis. it strikes me we are losing this great generation, this greatest generation of activists, of american heroes. what will that mean when this generation has passed? there is only a few. a small number of people left, but what does that mean? >> we have had this greatest

generation and others have said i absolutely agree for many black americans, these people should be thought of as among our founding mothers and father s and i think that is part of why we selfishly try to hold on to these people, right? we want them to live forever because there's a feeling we need them to as a country, that we shoulder at what the loss of these people men for our democracy. ambassador young was saying his first wife, jean, died of cancer but had lingered on for three years after her diagnosis is and we know what a fighter congressman lewis was. certainly he fought very bravely against pancreatic cancer, which we know can be devastating. we had hoped he would beat this. these people are the guardrails.

their physical presence on this earth has, in so many ways, just reminded people not only of the gains of the civil rights movement, hard, fought-for wins that i spent a lot of my early career writing about but also what i find myself writing about at this point in my career, which is the entrenchment of racism. not only are we not properly able to give them the kind of send-off that is befitting of their legacy during this pandemic but we're losing them at a time where we're really seeing a threat to a lot of the progress that they fought for. so i think that is what concerns so many in seeing this generation, which outlived dr.

king, jim crow. what does it mean for those people to be passing from the scene and no longer with us and belonging to the ages and not walking among us anymore? >> yeah, indeed. reconstruction and redumpgs. we had our second reconstruction. we are back in redemption again. part that have great legacy is you, errin, a black woman of the south that is able to tell these stories and document this history as it is ongoing. i'm grateful for you. thank you so much, errin. appreciate you being here this morning. joining me now is the reverend al sharpton, the host of politics nation and president of the national network and my big brother. reverend al, you know, you come from the next generation down of these civil rights leaders. you were the younger of the younger following these great men like dr. king producing

activism to what you were seeing in the north as well as the south. tell us from that point of view as an activist itself, what does it mean to have lost this great man? >> it is hard to put into impact that john lewis had. 15 years older than me. so i grew up in the north studying and learning from people like jesse jackson and john lewis, the younger of the king crowd but were the older to me. and being in the north, i learned about the civil rights movement in the south from them because i didn't grow up under jim crow. it was the challenge that john lewis and others gave me.

but as meacham said correctly, he would not let you compromise on the moral, biblical based kind of movement that you must have. he would say, al, i understand you're in new york and it may be more dramatic and it may be more costic, but you can't become i can the people you're fighting. he used to always talk about that with me. he had a tremendous impact. he was probably the most humble public figure i've ever met. i've never seen the slightest egomania around him. he was always understanding. when i would look at him, i would think in the biblical suppression of your body bore the marks. he was beaten as a freedom rider

and then beaten again on the edmund pettus bridge. he wore the wounds of the struggle into that hall every day. he was there and paid with blood and that's why one of the great moments in my life, i was saying at the rally this morning, was to walk across the edmund pettus brid bridge, standing right behind him and president obama. it was like the man who paved the way for the man that became the president and i don't think i would have a moment that would mean as much to me. and i remember lastly in march of this year, you're showing the picture there right there that i remember. i remember march of this year going across that bridge again, as we do every year. to alour surprise, john lewis

surprised us. dying of pancreatic cancer. he got up on this ladder, and these guys were holding, and i was holding, standing right under him. joy, you were there. you and i will be able to tell our children's children that the last time he was on that bridge, we were standing right there, holding him up. i remember, i saw you in the crowd and grabbed you up. you said i'm not a civil rights, i'm a journalist. i said no, you don't know the crowd. you're marching with me. little did i know i was making sure you were seeing john lewis on that day for the last time on that bridge. it should be named after him. it should be named after john lewis. >> absolutely. that was one of the most memorable moments of my life. i will never, ever forget it. sharing that with you was incredible. i've been talking about this all

morning t bugs me, reverend sharpton. you have people who are singing the praises of john lewis and fighting against voting rights. the voting rights act is what he pled for. is it soothing to you to hear a mitch mcconnell or these other members of the republican party who are backing drubl as he ron he rips apart our society and promotes confederate flags, but say great things about john lewis? >> it is the height of hypocrisy. it is insulting to those of us that come in the generation after john lewis and those coming after us now. they are trying to sugar coat their own blasphemy as far as i'm concerned. john lewis was on that bridge fighting just to get the right to vote. we were taxpayers.

we fought in the wars. just getting the right to vote, they beat him down. we're trying to preserve that. martin luther king on the anniversary, august 28th. john lewis was the only one left that spoke in '63. when we did it a few years ago, he came and marched with martin iii and i. we wanted him so much to be there this year. we were going to make and make sure that john lewis and ct vivian's dream is not turned backwards by the mitch mcconnells and others. they can give all the empty praise they want to today. this movement will continue to fight, to hold up voting rights and list reform, his last civil disobedience, he sat in the well around the house for gun reform. he led a sit-in, in the house. as we're looking at violence in

chicago, violence in new york, we've got to continue that fight on gun control and he fought for the right to vote. the last public appearance is he went to black lives matter plaza standing up police reform. we cannot just give words. we've got to continue what jon lewis did. movements are about continuity not about confusion. >> two more quick questions before i let you go. you know the president. you've known him a long time. does it surprise you that he's golfing this morning? i don't know if you agree with me, probably golfing his best, because he's zhargeed john lewis in such a vicious way in the past, has been so cruel to him in the way he's spoken about him. i'm relieved he's not saying anything. do you think i'm wrong? >> i certainly agree. he disparaged him, tweeted on

him. and he's probably doing the best thing that he could, to go and golf because that's where he is, that's where his head is. if he had any kind of respect for the american people, he would go to the king memorial and get on his knees and repent for the things that he has done against dr. king and against john lewis. but he does not have that in him. we've all made mistakes. he has made them, continues to make them and he has institutionalized them. and i just wish john lewis had lived to see the voters that he fought for rise up and answer mr. trump in november. >> somebody on the staff in the white house has decided to have the flags lowered to half-mast on federal buildings. at least someone there understands optics. that's been done. my final question to you, reverend sharpton, could you speak a moment to ct vivian?

i don't want him to get left out. >> he started protesting jim crow in the '40s and by '55, he was already a veteran the power, the magic of ct vivian is that he was one of the few leaders that could lead from the middle or the end of the crowd. he didn't need to be outfront. he did not want to be the key note. he was organizing, the one that would put it together. he had the humility that matched john lewis. you would always see ct like making sure everything was all right. he would never ever say where am ion the program? what am i going to do? he was like, you want me to do

what, al? two years ago, 2018, we gave him an award and he wanted to give it back. he was the one that stood up to jim crow for voting rights, he taught gandy in nonviolence to the movement sbefs the one that will take time when all of us in another generation and geopolitics. he, like john, would do that. congressman elect jamal bowman with us this morning. i was saying in my speech today that the preacher in me wants to say that since they died within the same 24 hours, maybe they had a pact that they would join in death and go see dr. king together. >> i love that as an image to take with us for the day. thank you very much. really appreciate your time, as always. >> thank you, joy.

we're going to go now to historian and friend of the show, michael beschloss. your thoughts on the passing of john lewis and ct vivian. i'm just going to give you the floor. >> i love everything you've been saying about john lewis this morning. he was such a sweet man. he was such a gentle man. we think of civil rights in the 1960s, there's such a tendency to say let's talk about john kennedy and lyndon johnson, which is fine. they should be admired for the bills they suggested in '63 and '65, but none of that would have happened without john lewis and people like reverend vivian and others who fought alongside of him. in the 1960s, kennedy was

worried if he was pushed too far on civil rights he might not get elected in 1964. he was elected with a lot of the south. the biggest state for kennedy in 1960 was georgia with something like 63%. those were not voters that kennedy be for civil rights and integration. kennedy's immediate reaction when he heard about the march on washington or about the freedom riders, or about what was happening in birmingham in 1963 was, these people are going to cause me trouble, political trouble, put pressure on me to go further than i want to go. john lewis was saying, that's exactly what i have in mind. i want to pressure the president. when kennedy heard about the march on washington, 1963, he was worried that john lewis would make a radical speech that might cause kennedy problems. it turns out we've now got access to the draft of the speech that john lewis wanted to give on the steps of the lincoln

memorial. and what he wanted to say was, listen, mr. kennedy, which side is the federal government on? kennedy was very apprehensive, but the result was that there was a lawyer in the justice department, john riley, who was put in charge of a record player so that if john lewis got too radical, john riley could press a button and drown out john lewis with a recording of singing "he's got the whole world in his hands." as it turns out, john lewis toned it down. even when they went to the white house later that day, john kennedy was a little cool to john lewis. >> as always, bringing a piece of information. i never heard that story before. you've always got the goods. michael beschloss, appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> joining me now is reverend mark thompson, host of the podcast make it plain with mark

thompson. i am short on time. i want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to reflect on john lewis, ct vivian, so the floor is yours. >> well, thank you, joy, for doing this. and our condolences go out to john's son and to michael collins and the entire staff who kept vigil for many, many days while john lewis was sick. this is an emotional day for a lot of us. when you think about john lewis and ct vivian, it was literally days apart. jackson was killed in selma, ct vivian was beaten by sheriff clark. malcolm x with coretta scott king. john lewis was part of that. it was about two weeks after malcolm x came to selma and talked about the movement, that he was assassinated. john lewis and i would say what

if. on march 7th, of course, he was bloody. you know, we shared a faith as ministers, and i was honored to spend time with him. it says in the scripture that whoever believes will do things as great and greater than christ did. and so christ shed blood for the sins of the world. john lewis and ct vivian shed their blood for the sins of ameri america, and america changed. and i can't help but think about what joseph lowery said at mrs. king's funeral and resurrected what he said when he talked about what happened. i imagine all of them, abernathy, dr. and mrs. king were all together in glory, and over the past 24 hours said, look, two others are coming to join us. joy, the faith we share teaches

us that john will never leave us. so i think what we have to do now is say good morning newly crowned ancestor. what trouble shall we get in today? and, lastly, joy, he admired you. he was very proud of you. i know that. and he is going to be with you, too, as you start this new venture. and his spirit lives on in you and in all of us. god bless and long live the spirit of john lewis and ct vivian. >> well, he was one of my potential dream guests when i put out a list of who would i love to talk to in the first week, he was on that list. john lewis was such a great, great, great man. such a nice man. for all of his glorious achievements, he was a humble, really nice person, which is also wonderful. >> yes. >> mark thompson, my friend,

thank you so much. always appreciate talking with you. thank you. joining me now is la tasha brown, co-founder of black lives matter. we're going to sneak in as many people as we can until we are out of time, la tasha. you are such a great fighter for voting rights. i'm sure you have great reflections on john lewis' legacy because you're part of it. so the floor is yours. ♪ ain't gonna let nobody turn me around turn me around turn me around i'm gonna keep on walking keep on talking marching up to freedom's land ♪ i just wanted to start in the spirit, like it's the work they did, the spirit of the movement. my organization, black voters matter, literally was created out of the spirit and continuing the legacy of both john lewis, but also ct vivian. i'm standing here and in this

space now, i'm filled with emotions around really talking about their legacy. if we want their legacy to be real and live on, we've got to acknowledge that we've still got unfinished business, that we've got to do the work. we've got to make good trouble. and it's in that spirit i'm so grateful to god as a native of selma, alabama, i met him when i was in my 20s. i was able to sit at his feet and listen to him in the organization i was part of, and the national voting rights movement. every year they would come to selma. we would hear from them. ct vivian was a mentor of mine. i spent time with him. there are three things that really stand out to me about them. that, one, they literally had something greater around -- it wasn't just about the law and about civil rights. it was about recognizing humanity. if you spoke to them, they would tell you this was really about humanity. when we think about the founders

of this country, we have to think about they were founders of the country, but founders of democra democracy. the founders of this country were not necessarily founders of democracy. while they had ideas about democracy, the fact that they didn't have enough insight to see you and i in the positions that we're in. but john lewis and ct vivian had that vision, right? they knew that there could be a better america, and they fought for that america. so, to be able to be in that legacy of that work, i am so grateful, so grateful to be able to listen and to learn and really be part of a movement that is continuing. and i'm just hoping that people who are listening, understanding that it wasn't -- we still got work to do. we've got a supreme court right now that is actually making rulings that is restricting people's access to the ballot to vote. we've got the head of the senate and republicans and people in high positions. if more people vote, power grab

for the democrats. we have people in position who are anti-democratic. the president is in position. and part of his legacy is we have to take the opportunity to make this democracy in america be real. >> amen. you came to preach this morning, latasha brown. we're going to take that sermon with us. i can carry that all the way through sunday. thank you for being here this morning. that was a word. that was a word. with a song. thank you so much. really appreciate you. have a really wonderful day. i also want to bring in, whoo, congressman eleanor holmes no h norton of washington, d.c. you're going to close us out. you have to follow that word, though. i'm going to give you the opportunity. the floor is now yours. >> my word is really very different, because john lewis was not, for me, just an icon. he was a colleague in more ways than one. first, when we were both on the

student coordinating committee as youngsters and little did we know then that we would meet again in congress as colleagues. i came to congress a year or so after he came to congress. and after i had been in the movement with john and he became chair because of sheer courage. more than 40 arrests. he was leadership by example. and when i say leadership by example, i mean risking your life. so young people saw what john did, and we figured, well, we, too, shall survive. his notion of never give up and never give in. he came to congress -- he brought with him to congress as well. his sense of nonviolence he brought, his sense that you could work with the other side

he brought out of the nonviolent civil rights struggle. he lived a full life, full of principle, and will always be remembered not only for his work beginning with snick but his work in the congress of the united states as well. >> indeed. and that, too, was a word. representative eleanor holmes norton, for d.c. to be a state. we're just going to believe on that. thank you so much. that is our show for today. thank you, congresswoman. thank you. that is our show for today. please tune in tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. tune in tomorrow. this will be my last-ever "am joy" show. join me and "am joy" favorites as we look back on the last four years and give you a preview of what's to come. this was an important two hours. my friend, alex witt, picks up the coverage next. alex witt, pp the coverage next.

welcome to weekends with alex witt. remembering john lewis. and we'll hear from him in his own words on the battle that took him door-to-door in the

fight for equal rights. another record in some hot spots with new questions on whether you can actually catch the virus twice. we've got some answers ahead. reopening gridlock. the ripple effects of the virus on daily life. hundreds waiting in lines for up to half a day. why, where and what for, next. but, of course, we begin this hour with the breaking news. the death of john lewis, a lifelong civil rights activist, challenging segregation, discrimination and justice across the deep south. he was probably best known for leading hundreds in the 1965 march across the edmund pettus bridge in selma, alabama, on what became known as bloody sunday. geoff bennett takes a look back. >> reporter: john lewis was often called the conscience of congress, a moral leader who demanded respect from democrats and republicans, seen as one of the last unifying forces in

national politics. one of ten children born to sharecroppers in rural alabama in 1940. he grew up on his family's farm and attended segregated public schools, inspired by the young boy by the activism surrounding the bus boycott and inspired by the dr. reveremartin king who hd on the radio. in 1961, joining in the freedom rides, which challenged segregation at interstate bus terminals across the south. >> i was not concerned about making history. i just wanted to change things. >> while still in his 20s, he became a nationally recognized leader. >> i grew in the way of ve