the good times going. ♪ wayfair. you've got just what i need. ♪ lay there. i'm joshua john harbaugh good to be with you tonight from nbc news world headquarters in new york plenty to discuss this hour president trump on in an interview that aired today his view of the pandemic was optimistic at pest covid-19 cases continue to rise. only a handful of states have the virus under control. new highs this week. some hospital rooms are packed with patients. doctors are resorting to treating them in the hallways. the halls of schools could be quieter than usual many are keeping students off

campus that has left many parents scrambling to figure out what to do with their kids if they cannot physically go back to school the president's interview with chris wallace was testy at times, especially when he was being fact checked his messaging has been consistent the pandemic is ending and america is just putting out a few burning embers >> burning embers. this is a forrest fire >> i say flames. we'll put out the flames and we'll put out in some cases just burning embers we have burning embergs. we have embers and we do have flames florida became more name like but it's going to be under control. we are the envy of the world they call and say the most incredible job anybody's done is our job on testing >> cases are up 1994%. it isn't just that testing has gone up. it's that the virus has spread the positivity rate has up creased. >> many of those cases -- many of those cases are young people

that would heal in a day they have the sniffles and we put it down as a test. i think we have -- >> that's not true, sir. >> bile right eventually i've been right probably more than anybody else. >> the president was wrong about the mortality rate among other things according to johns hopkins when its comes to the percentage of infected patients wh former dirr of health policy in the obama white house and an msnbc medical contributor. glad to have you with us dr. patel let me start with you.

oh, the many things we could discuss the from this interview as relates to coronavirus. dr. anthony fauchi has been refused to as an alarmist by the president, and so referred in this interview >> joshua, i think the top line thing to say is it was a complete marketing campaign of misinformation all the way from just kind of counter factual statements that were absolutely not correct and not validated by any numbers that anybody has seen but also just this continuous kind of -- seemingly inabout to face the problem or even admit that there is a problem and then try to help the country move forward so instead of acknowledging that yes, as he describes it, these hot spots, embers, flails, but

here's our response and how we're addressing this or how we're supporting those plays in meeting the needs of their people all of that was lost i think the american people, certainly the health care professionals working very hard in those states are looking for that guidance. so what was noticeable is everything that is missing to help deal with this pandemic >> shannon, president trump is pushing for school campuses to reopen this fall regardless of the state of the virus today repeated a threat that has meant to force them to open. watch. >> there's going to be a funding problem because we're not going to fund -- when they don't open their schools, we're not going to fund them we're not giving them money if they don't open. >> the president also threatened to veto a new stimulus bill if it doesn't contain a parallel tax cut. the number of republican lawmakers say they do not support that do you get the sense that these are serious threats from the president? >> well, there's -- when it

comes to appropriation of money, there is only so much control the president has over that, and even if the president decides to veto -- or if he does veto a bill, of course, congress can override that veto and of course congress is one who can control whether money is actually put in this next stimulus bill to help schools, so rather than tut cutting funding, what about money to actually help them buy p.p.e. and supplies and thermometers and whatever else they're going to need in the fall opening schools is obviously this priority for this president. but he's not really engaged on that many more issues. the schools is something that we hear him talk about over and over and of again. he's not, though, talking about testing. testing return times, quicker. more widespread testing. i have think a lot of this has to do with the fact that he's just not engaged behind the

scenes he is briefed daily on what is going on but he is not the one calling governors. that's the vice president. he's not the one travel to the state, that's the vice president. its unclear when the last task force briefing he went to was, so other than things like saying schools need to open, there's not really that much the president is involved in, even behind the scenes that the point based on my reporting. >> basil, here is what the president said when asked about law enforcement and specifically the disproportionate number of african-americans who are killed by police. watch. >> this is going on for decades. this is going on the for a long time, long before i got here >> he also noted that a number of white men get killed by the police, too. that more white men get killed than black men that is technically correct but

americans are more likely to die than whites do i'm not surprised by this answer considering how the president has spoken of law enforcement up to now so maybe i'm numb to it. this doesn't really shock me, but am i missing something >> no, you're not missing anything actually look i remember there was a time a year ago that the president got an award for his involvement in criminal justice reform and i remember it thinking how horribly cynical that was, you know, this is a president who as was said earlier doesn't really understand policy, doesn't get into the minutia of policy and, quite frankly, he will make one statement today and tomorrow say something completely different and then we have a situation where he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth, praising -- on the one hand praising of folks who are taking a stand, if you will, against these -- for

black lives matter, but perhaps on another occasion shortly thereafter talk about using the military on our own people in the streets to push back these protesters so there's a two-facedness about this president that i think is incredibly evident, certainly to the key constituencies older americans who have been affected and suburban americans who are not only concerned about his governance style but i would imagine many of those families and many of those children were out protesting with black lives matter protests, on the criminal justified reform and they feel some kind of way about the fact that this president has threatened them with use of the military i think if you put those into perspective, nothing surprises me about this president anymore. whatever he says today, the narrative will change tomorrow >> beth, the president also not

surprisingly had a fair amount o to say about joe biden watch. >> joe doesn't know he's alive ok he doesn't know he's alive he will destroy this company but it won't be him. it will be the radical left. >> behind campaign representative dunn the only new development here is the increasing he deranged level of desperation they are showing in selling another ridiculous theory." calling your opponent crazy is not unheard of in presidential campaigns but the president was also upt over new polling showing joe biden filling until key gaps >> today "the washington post"/abc news poll came out showing a huge gap home run gap. joe biden leading by 15 points

nationally that is that is one of many high quality polls showing that joe biden is ahead, he's pulling away here's why the coronavirus numbers keep going up and up and up, the president's approval goes down, down, down, down the two are intertwined at this point. make the campaign be about him but at this point that's kind of impossible the only thing that people want to know in this country is what president trump is going to do to stem the spread of this torrential virus and until and unless he can step forward and she national strategy, show leadership, deal with people's concerns, deal with people's concerns about sending their kids back to school and how to do that safely people aren't going to will to his claims about joe biden not knowing he was alive not in this race >> much more for us to discuss with the panel as the hour goes on but dr. patel, appreciate you

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a disturbingly violent crackdown continues in the streets of world, oregon, one that may lend credence to the case for law enforcement reform. federal officers from a number of agencies have used chemical agencies and plastic bullets some have been dragged away in unmarked vehicles. these federal officers sent as his direction are aimed to help portland he refused to the protesters as anarchist. the president made the same argument in his fox news

interview. >> you look at what's gone on in portland, those are anarchists if we didn't take a stand in portland -- we've arrested in of these leaders. if we didn't take that stand right now you would have had a problem like -- they're going to lose portland. >> this morning portland's player pleaded for the violence to end and for the officers to leave. >> take these people out of our city they are not helping us. they are hurting us. they are escalating an already dangerous situation. >> our pam is back, shannon, beth and because il. also with us, paul butler. professor butler let me start with you what these federal officers are doing is clearly controversial to say the least, shocking for sure. is it legal? >> it's not legal. president trump earlier tweeted that he wanted the police to dominate protesters and what

we're seeing now is his administration sending paramilitary troops to u.s. citizens -- u.s. cities to control u.s. citizens. in portland they're dressed in camouflage type military outfits. one of the many problems is that's also how some of the far right counterprotesters are dressed. and so if you're a peaceful protester and you get pulled into a car an unmarked vehicle by people who don't have badges, they don't say who they are, you don't know whether it's the police or random kidnapper or some of these countermilitary protesters the concern is these federal officers are unaccountable if it's local officers they have to follow the rules of the state. like they can't use tear gas unless it's a riot they can't use impact munitions unless it's a riot and yet these

unnamed officers, ununiformed are arresting people, they're firing rubber bullets into crowds it's unconstitutional and it's also counterproductive the protests are actually dwindling down now with this flagrant violation of rights there are thousands up rising krael saying that this is not american >> this has turned into a power struggle there are investigations under way. we talked to organize's attorney general who is suing the department of homeland security over what they call unlawful deat the same time how is the white house responding >> well, you recall, joshua, in early june when that big protest happened in lafayette square and president trump went over to st. john's church and held up the bible, there are a lot of unidentified military folks -- or dressed as military folks at

that location as well, trying to keep the peace they were unidentified they were federally he floyd but we're not saying who had deployed them on the mission this situation in portland feels very similar to that what i have to say, i don't like to do what about-ism very often. but in this case can you imagine if president obama deployed unidentified federal officers to break up a tea party rally or a second amendment rally, there would be such outcry and sufficient bring so, from a lot of quarterbacks if did bpgs was to do something like that. certainly if the local government the mayor, the governor, for president trump to push through with a federalized military style presence in that city very much violates what conservatives typically say they're all about, which is local control up don't send in feds to curtail your problems. >> shannon, the new york times

reported on a memo from dhs that says these officers were not trained in handling riots or demonstrationsful briefly, what do we actually know about who they are and what their orders were >> we don't know much. that certainly remains a question, acting day jeff secretary hack open saying that they are sending you know, officials there or some sort of law enforcement officials from dhs to protect monuments and the federal courthouses. i would say this is something that the president is certainly suggesting he will do more of. he repeatedly talked last week about wanting to send federal law enforcement officials into other cities he's brought up chicago a number of times he's again comparing chicago to afghanistan, talking about how they will call him, all they have to do is call him and he'll send, you know, federal law enforcement there or send the

national guard and solve the problem right away it of course is a bigger part of his campaign theme, a line i believe we are going to hear a lot more of is you will not be safe in joe biden's america. so the president wants an image and the campaign likes this image of current anarchy and the idea that president trump -- again, this is the messaging they're trying to portray -- is the one who can stop this anarchy and if you have a joe biden presidency you'll just see more and more and more of it that's becoming a central theme to have campaign >> basil, nancy pelosi referred to them as storm troopers. one said that being among them was like being parade upon i'm not sure what can be done about this other than dhs ordering these officers to stand

down before we break, where do you see this going >> i don't see it having any anytime soon, frank little this is part of the president's -- this is sort of his approach, right. we he talked about stepping in to cities a few days ago and taking them over he's talked in similar ways about new york and chicago and atlanta. this is part of -- this is who he is. this is his selling point to this base, is that this is a country where democrats and liberals are going to let the streets just detheater and i'm the only one that can help i'm the only savior that you have it's an extraordinarily dangerous message what scares me i don't know -- this might not be the appropriate term. the fact that you have these federal agents disappearing americans, citizens, residents off the american cities shoot bring the left and the right together, because this can't happen

this should not be happening >> professor butler, stick arranged we'll need your help later in the hour up next, president trump is working to exclude undocumented immigrants from thu.e s. sentence, but why? uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. n-n-n-no-no ♪ ♪ we've always put safety first. ♪ ♪ and we always will. ♪ ♪ for people. ♪ ♪ for the future. ♪ ♪ and there has never been a summer when it's mattered more. wherever you go, summer safely. get zero percent apr financing for up to five years on select models and exclusive lease offers.

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president trump is planning to sign an executive order removing data on undocumented immigrants from the 2020 snuns snuns. it helps state legislate yours and other pup services across the country and oh, by the way, it is a constitutional requirement. now, by some accounts, this last money change would be unprecedented. they were nervous about giving information to the government.

our panel's back to discuss it and joining us is nyu law enforcement elissa murray. professor murray, let me start with you if this order is science signed, what happens then? >> well, it will already be a huge blow to what has been a really difficult census period right now. it's about 62% rates of census reporting in july. obviously that will not yield the kind of information that we need to make districting decisions nor to allocate federal funding for schools, roads, and things of that nature so to further exacerbate this by cutting out those who are undocumented it will obviously lead to a serious recounting i think that's the exact plan. this is part of a long-term strategy to skew power from democratly leaning urban centers to more conservative leaning red state areas or rural communities and again, the undercounting of

latino populations and undocumented populations are all part of that plan. >> this is not the first time the transaction has targeted undocumented graeptsds in 2008 18 it tried to get a question on the sentence but that was knocked down. >> the president's trying to do this by executive order. it seems that will be met with litigation and will end up right back in the courts like the citizenship question was now as to why the president is doing this, a few months before the election, obviously, there are broader political issues here because republicans and the administration was rather open about this, too, the citizenship question trying to undercount the number of undocumented people to, you know, altar the redistricting map that

theoretically be with republicans having more control in congress. but immigration is one of the areas that hemmed get him elected in 2016. before the pandemic, advisors saying immigration was going to be a key issue president thinks that helped deliver in it 2016 and that will do it in 2020 because in his view immigration is the number one issue for republicans. maybe that was the case a year ago but given the pandemic and the economy, when we see surveys and polls of what the top issues are for voters right now, it is not immigration. and so there remains to be a question as to what, if any, impag ghosing to have on where the president sees it going. >> what's your assessment of not counting undocumented immigrants do you see it the way professor murray sees it or is there

something else. >> no. there is the way this is the president trying to redraw districts, which he can't do, because states do that, and try to reshape the country to benefit his policies an the policies of his friends and allies but, you know, again, he has been getting push-back on immigration time and time again when he tries to do -- enact some of these measures it actually does hurt and could potentially hurt states like new york, which has already been losing congressional seats over the last 20 years because to have outflow of our population, and so it actually does erode the power that a lot of states with large immigrant populations, some of the power that they already have, but again, it is an attempt to weaken a democratic base and a democratic constituency. if i was more visionary and less

reactionary if i'm the president of the united states, i would be thinking i want to grow my support instead of shrink it and maybe this is time to bring people together and force a positive change in immigration and talk more about the census because that could benefit the red state but he's more about subtraction and addition >> maybe the most significant undercount in the 2020 census. also the covid-19 pandemic the deadlines have been pushed back although the have not responded to the snuns yet as of this week but they had enough to deal with. >> that's for sure this really couldn't be force, joshua in the midst of everything else

that families are dealing with between lots of job, potentially illness in their home, figuring out when the kids are going back to school, how to moong their household in this pandemic, managing the census is just taking that and put it way down on the list of priorities that most americans have. the fewer people who fill out the census, that means it excuse power in this country, and it's going to skew it frighteningly away from where people are actually living, populated areas in places of the country that are much less populated if we see this a symmetry of filling out the census versus those who may be margin alliesed who were going to be less inclined to fill it out. i'm with shannon on this, joshua it's so clearly a throwback toing 2016 when the whole discussion of immigration, particularly illegal

immigration, undocumented folks coming into this country was such a lightning rodots to choo president trump and he knows that he's trying to harken back for a message like that. we're in a place right now people who say it tops their agenda is way, way down. president trump is trying to recreate an environment that has drastically changed. >> before we move on, i wronlder if you could help us take the heat versus light on this issue. the census website says that the census counts everybody. everyone who's living in the u.s. when the census is taken. the supreme court has never really directly ruled on this court. do you think this is something that might actually need to be settled in the future or is this more a function of this nature of this administration le. >> it does say that population will be counted in the census

and the apportionment of the house will be based on that. it says in that same section that african-americans will be koubltsed as three fifths of a person, so obviously some of this has gone by the wayside >> i didn't want to bring that up i'm glad you did >> these are things that haven't been intercepted by the court, maybe they don't have to be because they are supported in the eks o the the constitution it goes without saying that the stay with us for the purposes of apportioning seats in the house is a population-based effort as opposed to a citizenship effort, to shift from a population based model to a more citizenship base sd model which would exclude broad swaths of the population and skewing to more rural areas of the country >> if you ask yourself why there aren't enough parks in your neighborhood and you do not take

the census. >> right >> you're making this harder if you are not counted, you do not count. go to census.gov, take the census you can take it on line. nyu professor, appreciate you spending dime with us. coming up we'll talk about the legacy of congressman john lewis. how will that legacy shape today? >> i saw the signs that said white men, colored men, whites women, colored women i asked my mother, my father, my grand parents, my great grand parents, that's the way it is. don't do it don'tget in trouble. i got in trouble there was something moving in me that i could no longer be satisfied. her around the corner? or could things go a different way? i wanted to help protect myself.

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even surprised as how young people have mobilized for social justice these last months. but young people have driven every single issue in history. on the front lines of the civil right movement, job lewis died friday night at the aiming of 80 back when he was just 23, he was the youngest activist to speak at the march on washingtonton. >> we are tired of being beat by policemen. we're tired of seeing our people locked up in jail over and over again. how long can we be patient we want our freedom and we want it now >> it is an eloquent speech, but it's not quite what he intended to say the match's leaders asked lewis to tone down his final draft it called out the kennedy administration and included provocative calls to action but

organizers feared it would be perceived as too radical, but perhaps those words needed to be said perhaps right now. our pam is back, including paul butler and professor, you made that assertion of that argue what do those words have to do with the state of affairs today? >> john lewis was the youngest speaker at the march on washington, just 23, and joshua, he brought the fire. he wanted to ask the kennedy administration which side is the federal government on. he wanted to say we're going to burn jim crow to the ground nonviolently the old school aluminum nares, people like a phillip randolph and worry wilkins, they told him to chill, to tone it down. he never lost that fire. john lewis was arrested over 45 times, including many instances

in which he was a congressman and still doing the protests, still getting arrested one of his most famous arrests, that bloody sunday in 1965 when the police beat up him and many other nonviolent protesters. three weeks later president johnson signs the voting rights act widely considered the most successful civil rights act of all time at the time that that bill was signed, there were six african-american congressman in 2018 there are 52 what a remarkable life what a struggle martin luther king thought about nobody did the struggle for people justice better than john lewis. >> basil, what should america learn from the legacy of john lewis particularly as it might inform the civil unrest that we're seeing now >> wel it's never too early or

never too late to speak up and speak out. that is important to challenge all institutions, and i think that's -- that to me was one of the biggest lessons that i took away from his life and his legacy i mean, i -- just myself as a person who's a gen x generation, i sort of grew up with hip-hop but i grew up also in an area of respectability politics. there were folks pulling me in one direction to sort of act a certain way and be plight and ask permission and i group up with hip-hop telling me no, you know, challenge everything challenge perceptions. and i -- and institutions. and it's very important for me and for soaks certainly in my generation, because not only do we balance those two things but we're looking at a younger generation, as you talked about earlier. he doesn't have that same kind of hesitancy i think that's an important part of john lewis's legacy that i take with me

that his tan si could be a hindrance and we're not in a place where we can afford to sort of pull back and to be plight and to ask for permission when an officer is kneeling on george floyd's neck for eight and three quarter minutes, there's no time for plightness that's certainly a lesson that the younger generation, i think, has taken and has run with it in ways that should impress andy spire all of us. >> kmap jim clyburn of south carolina was on meet the press today. here's part of what he said. >> edmund pettus was the grand wizard of the ku klux klan to take his name off that bridge and replace it with a good man, john lewis, to honor him,

someone who was disrespected individual freedom >> renaming the pet us bridge has been an issue for a while. do we have a sense of where that actually goes from here? >> i mean, there's so much momentum for it right now. it would certainly be a crowns achievement to john lewis's already amazing legacy to go ahead and do that. and as basil said it's a reminder when you think about what happened to john lewis on that bridge to have his -- the violence that he met with and to have been badly wounded, his head clubbed, it does remind us of the many things people are protesting now about police brutality and racial up justice. yet the great thing we saw from john lewis was he seemed to move forward with a lot of joy, and grace. he fore gaifl george wallace he had that incredible aura of hope and optimism that maybe helpfully could affect the

movement that we're seeing now, that people don't fall into despair, that people believe a better day is coming that's what john lewis projected to the hill and to the many people who loved and revered him. >> i don't know anything that was ever solved by despair good to see y'all tomorrow thanks very much before we go, the only thing as stunning as this photo of viola davis is the story of the person who took it. as a caricature artist,

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this is me getting out of viola davis' way mmm-mmm, you see why this fabulous photo marks a first in the 106-year history of "vanity fair" magazine believe it or not tial this is its first cover shot by a black photographer dario calmies said this is meant to provoke "scourged back," this portrait from 1863 this man is a slave whose back was obviously badly scarred from being whipped. he ran from a plantation in mississippi all the way to baton rouge where he met up with the union army and that is where this picture was taken. the artist's aim was to reimagine that image "from

suffering to strength. from frantic escape to flawless elegance this is "vanity fair's" editor-in-chief writing, only 17 black people, other than ms. davis, have been on the cover since the early '80s joining us is photographer dario kralmies first of all, congratulations. i'm curious to know what motivated you to shoot viola davis this way was this the look the magazine was aiming for >> it was not. it was originally the summer issue and the original director was strong, bright, powerful and that's actually what i was going for initially. there are many images and some on the interior i was thinking would work for the cover but i did want to shoot this image as a part of the story and when we were on set and the image came up on the screen, the

entire set just like went quiet. i think you realized that something beautiful had happened and it started to weave again, to just rethink what the cover could be and then we submitted these images we kind of pushed this image because it was so strong and really encapsulated everything that i was going for. >> could we look at the photo full screen one more time? i want to ask you about the composition of this picture. i don't know if you intended to do it this way what i take from the way you took that shot is that the area in the scourged back where the whip scars are kind of what draws the eye in, that's not what draws your eye in with the viola davis photo. you see the light kind of human necessarying off of her flawless black skin it's almost like you're using her hairstyle, her skin, the

lighting, to intentionally highlight something other than the remnants of slavery that were highlighted in "the scourged back. >> absolutely, absolutely. you know, for me it was really about reclaiming this image. reclaiming this history. and not only acknowledging it, but transmuting. transmuting it what does it look like when the black gaze looks on black skin, versus the white gaze on black suffering? so it was really a transmutation of that image. and yeah, i mean, i think it was successful this is kind of surprising but i'm definitely humbled. >> i was just going to ask you about how you managed photographing viola davis. i mean, you almost have to -- every time i hear her name, i hear it the way deon cole says it in his netflix comedy

special, viola davis what was that like taking that picture and realizing that you were getting to do this? that must have been incredible. >> it was. it was incredible. and i think for me walking into this shoot, i knew that i ultimately had a responsibility to viola davis when she was my first client, if you will so the magazine, yes but viola davis, number one. she's worked so hard everything about her, she's earned her beauty, her strength, her talent it was something that she really worked for and i think in a cultural dialogue, people speak about viola davis as the black meryl streep and she's not the black meryl streep, she is just viola davis. she's our viola davis. even though it was under covid guidelines and everyone was wearing masks and we were social distancing, i wanted to make sure viola davis, the viola davis, got every single thing

she deserved, the entire treatment. like this is still "vanity fair," this r cover. you have worked so hard, and you don't have to look absolutely gorgeous >> i almost feel bad being on television next to pictures of her. we can just run that loop of your pictures of her until the credits roll and it would be better than looking at me. one last thing i do have to ask you before i let you go. i think some folks will look at this and say, you know what? it's just a fashion magazine people are getting beaten in the streets by federal officers. let's stick to what really matters, not some photo shoot. what would you say to them, briefly, before we go? >> and that's really what it is. it's about subverting the spectacle. we have a cultural understanding of what a magazine cover is, and you can just look at it and then you can move on. it can just be beautiful but by showing you the reference, i'm implicating you in this history. so i'm taking this very banal thing like the magazine cover

and imbuing it with not only blackness, but also the history. so even if you want to just admire it for the view, you still are implicated in the history of this country. and so that's really what i was going for when i say, this is my form of protest. >> i can't stop grinning over those pictures, they are so good and taken by dario calmese congratulations and thank you for spending time with us. >> of course, of course, of course. speaking of stunning black flawlessness, did you know joy reid's got a new show? "the reidout." hillary clinton will join her for this maiden voyage set your dvr "the reidout" premieres tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. eastern thanks for making time for us tonight. until we meet again, i'm joshua johnson. stay safe, stay sharp, stay tuned. there's much more just ahead on msnbc. heck, they'd come all the way out here just for a blurry photo of me.

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this sunday, a special edition. the covid crisis >> it is truly -- we haven't begun to see the end of it yet. >> cases soaring. >> our hospitals are overwhelmed. we have seven hospitals that are at maximum capacity right now in miami-dade alone >> it's tough. i get pretty -- emotional about this >> testing slow.