know, i'm happy to talk to whomever who wants to call me. in the absence of that, we've been doing everything we can locally to make the best decisions to protect our residents. >> i appreciate your time. i appreciate your coming on our show and i may dig around myself to see if the cdc is available to local officials. mayor, thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back -- federal agent s snatching people off the states fears that the tactics used in portland cldou be coming to a city near you. that's next. i love rakuten,

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we're going to get to the portland story in a minute but first, coronavirus numbers and fears worsen across this country, so do donald trump's poll numbers, less than four months until the presidential election, a brand-new abc news/washington post poll shows trump trailing joe biden by a whopping ten-point margin among likely voters.

trump eight points behind the presumptive democratic nominee, trump is warning us just as he did in 2016 he may not accept the official results in november, making one thing many people fear a very real possibility. here was trump on fox news yesterday on that topic. >> are you good a loser? >> i'm not a good loser. i don't like to lose i don't lose too often >> are you gracious? >> you don't know until you see. i think mail-in voting is going to rig the election, i really do >> are you suggesting that you might not accept the results of the election >> i have to see >> joining our conversation "the new york times" chief national correspondent and msnbc contributor marc leivotic. it's not something that

discussed with this white house, there are discussions in the military about what to do if donald trump said out loud comes to pass. >> oh, boy yeah, this is one of those categories of things where donald tru donald trump sews chaos into the system, i mean, he did this four years ago and freaked everybody out, freaked hillary clinton out on the debate stage and the fact is it never came to pass you know, this is a potentially catastrophic situation that the military certainly doesn't want to deal with this year a lot of the chaos that has characterized this presidency. lot of it depends on the margin if he's defeated say biden wins by five points in the popular vote and in the electoral college that will

dictate. but look, this is a big uncertainty and it's not donald trump's job at this point to comfort everyone you know, it's not something that you -- it's not his m.o >> it's just so, anita, we've got norm busting and we democracy destroying, i worked for a candidate who won and witnessed the you know cohesive transfer of power and i worked for a candidate that lost and i worked in 2000 on an election where there was no outcome the transfer of power is a hallmark of democracy and we talk a lot about when we stop being america, we stop being a democracy who's sitting saying i don't know if i'm going to accept the results. >> he was asked the same question, he did said that he

would abide by what the election showed i adopt know if he was just saying that at that time or something changed. according to recent polls he has an idea, aides and advisers who are telling him this does not look good. but still things can change. i found it interesting in that clip you showed, are you a good loser? we saw what he's like when he's lost smaller battles, we've seen what he's like a a lot of people in joe biden's world, what can we do if this does come to fruition? >> yeah, i mean, he can't walk down a ramp and take the criticism that he seemed to do

so with the grace of a i don't know what. something else that he injected into the presidential contest, to screen out tests like dementia and alzheimer's in the fox poll they asked people who's more competent, whose mind is sounder? biden beats you at that. >> let's take a test right now, let's go down, joe and i will take -- take the same test that i took -- >> incidentally i took the test too -- >> how did you do? >> it's not the hardest test >> you see, that's all misrepresentation. >> that's what was on the web. anyone in your life with dementia or alzheimer's one of the nastiest of all these kind of diseases, this is pretty gut-punching to see donald trump

bragging about the first few answers of a test and how they get hard at the end. it's not a math test, it's a cognitive test for donald trump to be bragging in getting math questions right is next level lunacy we all kind of laugh it off. what a buffoon, he's bragging about, you know, on results to screen out dementia. what's really going on here in. >> well, i mean, it's very -- it's easy to dismiss it and say this is another goofy moment that we have to deal with this president. the fact is, donald trump is in big trouble with older voters, it seems like his number one sort of attack in attacking joe biden he doesn't know where he is, he's essenti ee's senile.

obviously is not going to help him with senior voters, these are real and present issues that affect everyone especially if you have aging parents, also more importantly, the group of people that are most likely to vote are seniors in places like florida and arizona, lot of questionable voting, you know, effects if you're donald trump >> anita, it's also hideous politics, i mean, i've been involved in campaigns that have had more bad days than good days but this is what lays underneath the gutter, underneath the gutter, who thinks this is a good idea politically for donald trump? >> right, well, there's been so many people that are close to the president that are telling him that the message in the

campaign is all over the place, and it is. on coronavirus on law and order on everything he's been talking about and there are a lot of people that think if he goes after joe biden that's when this race is going to sort of clear up and that they have -- they can come back and they could actually be victorious if they go after joe biden, one thing that we'll see from now on everything they can think of against joe biden this included, they're going to go there, because it's what they have left at this point. those other messages on himself haven't resonated yet and they're thinking in this general election they have to go after joe biden. >> that's unbelievable thank you both so much for spending some time with us to talk about it all. when we come back -- those federal law enforcement agents, from portland, they may be

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now to portland, oregon, where demonstrators protesting racial injustice for almost go months now are clashing with federal law enforcement amid reports that they're being arrested unlawfully by shadowy agents in unmarked vans. officials are now suing the department of homeland security for its use of police force and requesting a restraining order portland warns that the trump administration directing hundreds of agents to his city is an escalation of an already-dangerous situation. now, from top administration officials and the president himself, the threat that the tactics they're using in portland could very well be expanded across the entire country. joining our conversation ryan

hass who has been covering this story, ryan, we're trying to get our arms around this story, you've been so far out in front on what's happening, tell us -- tell us the state of affairs today. >> yes, so, as we have seen federal agents are here in portland, and they're continuing to both protect federal property but also gather protesters and arrest protesters nowhere prote protests we're seeing an escalation. >> what happens once somebody is arrested in. >> in at lot of cases they're taken in for questioning they're grabbed generally off the street and taken inside the federal courthouse here in portland, and then held for some amount of time often asked questions and released some of these folks have been

charged for things like. pointing laser pointers at officials. in one case there was an assault on a federal officer. >> ryan, are you aware of anyone at the local or state level or anyone in the congressional delegation, any of your senators asking for federal help? >> no, not that i'm aware of, in fact everybody from local to state, to federal officials, have all actually said we do not want federal officers here taking actions, we would accept that they can defend federal property that's their job, but especially asked for this to be scaled back, because it's only escalating the protests every night. >> ryan, i imagine in your reporting you've come across people who have been picked up by the federal militias, how do they describe those

interactions? >> it's pretty scary, honestly, the person we spoke to he said he was walking down the street at 2:00 a.m. blocks away from any federal property and a van swerved up, men jumped out, pulled his hat down over his eyes and pushed him van and did not tell him where he was going, why he was being detained, or any information about what they were doing or what agency they were with so it's the kind of stuff that you're really just not used to hearing out of american law enforcement. >> truer words have not been uttered on this show in a long time ryan, thank you so much. we're going to keep coming back to you, because as you say, you remain way outfront on this story. thank you so much for spending some time with us. when we come back, it's far from back to normal, but major league baseball is making its final preparations to get back on the field and they're wearing masks. that's next. ill at risk for a heart attack or stroke?

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major league baseball is getting ready for opening day this week. with the shortened season scheduled to begin on thursday, but we'll take it. over the weekend, teams held spring training games, including the yankees and mets, where lots of players donned masks on the field. nbc's vaughn hillyard is in phoenix at chase field where the arizona diamondbacks will officially start the season in just a few days.

vaughn, i was amazed watching this mets/yankees game saturday, which didn't end the way i wanted it to for my mets, at how many players didn't make a thing about it, it was an't a politic statement, just had their masks on and were going about the business of playing baseball >> reporter: exactly there's an intrasquad game between the arizona diamondbacks taking place at chase field back behind us right now and the same thing can be said right here what you saw over the course of the weekend was baseball is what we're going to see over the course of these next 60 games. our great photographer, i feel like i have to talk in a golf voice right here, because you can hear everything that's going on and i'm pretty sure they can hear us down on the field. the one constant through all the years has been baseball, and that is what you're going to see on thursday, opening day here. we should note, every other day, these players are being tested and those tests are being sent to a lab out in utah you have seen no major outbreak among any organization at this point in these players, they say they're taking this seriously, because they have every intention to make it through the

season and the post-season i had a conversation with tony clark, longtime former major leaguer as well as the executive director of mlb players' association. take a listen to part of our association. >> what we've seen over these past couple of weeks with the testing, with the adjustments to the protocols and the things that need to be done, an effort to get back and playing, both individually and collectively, but the guys have taken it serious. that the staff around them have taken it serious that those the other on-field personnel, including the umpire, have taken it seriously. and that gives me hope to believe that we can get through what right now is a 60-game season >> nicole, not only are we seeing opening day at baseball this week, but nfl training camp begins this week ten days from now, the nba tips off and the nhl comes to play just 12 days from now. nicole >> well, we certainly need sports back in our life. we'll stay on this vaughn hillyard in phoenix for us, thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

coming up, donald trump's ignorance and defiance in the face of the coronavirus ndemic on full display. "deadline: white house" next some companies still have hr stuck between employees and their data.

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switch and save hundreds. xfinity mobile. hi, everyone it's 4:00 in new york on a monday in pan interview reminiscent of katie couric's palin interview, chris wallace revealed donald trump's delusional approach to the coronavirus, laying bare the

president's ignorance and defiance of the public health crisis that has paralyzed our country and decimated the economy. wallace wielding the weapon of facts to counter trump's lies in an interview for the ages. >> sir, testing is up 37%. >> well, that's good >> i understand. cases are up 194%. it isn't just that testing has gone up, it's that the virus has spread the positivity rate has increased. many of those are worst than it was. >> many of those cases are young people that would heal in a day. >> 75,000 cases a day. >> show me the death chart >> well, i don't have the death chart. >> well , the death chart -- >> the death chart is 1,000 cases a day. >> excuse me it's all too much. it shouldn't be one case it came from china they should have never let it escape, they should have never let it out, but it is what it is take a look at europe, take a look at the numbers in europe. >> i can tell you, cases are

6,000 in the whole european union. >> they don't test they don't test like we do >> is it possible they don't have the virus as badly as we do >> it's possible that they don't test, that's what's possible i'll be right eventually i will be right eventually i said, it's going to disappear. i'll say it again. it's going to disappear and i'll be right >> it was a master class, a relentless effort to fact check even the most baseless, nonsensical attempts by this president to paint the coronavirus crisis in the u.s. as anything less than disastrous but that didn't stop trump from trying and failing to manufacture a mic drop moment against wallace that of course backfired on him >> kayleigh's right here i hear we have one of the lowest maybe the lowest mortality rate anywhere in the world. do you have the numbers, please. i heard we have the best mortality rate >> -- countries as dr. birx points out and this is -- >> number one low mortality

rate i hope you show this, because it shows what fake news is all about. >> i don't think i'm fake news -- >> today you are you said we had the worst mortality rate in the world. >> i had the second -- >> it's a little complicated, but bear with us we went with numbers from johns hopkins university, which charted the mortality rate for 20 countries hit by the virus. the u.s. ranks seventh, better than the united kingdom, but worst than brazil and russia the white house went with this chart from the european cdc, which shows italy and spain doing worse, but countries like brazil and south korea doing better other countries doing better like russia aren't included in the white house chart. >> so there you have it. a brazen presidential falsehood that the united states has the best mortality rate in the world, dismantled by chris wallace' research team the interview airing on a weekend of crushing new revelations about the president's failures, failures to respond to warnings about the

coming explosion in coronavirus cases. "the new york times" reports on the white house efforts to operationalize their abdication of a federal leadership role in combatting the virus this way. quote, their ultimate goal is to shift responsibility for leading the civil right against the pandemic from the white house to the states they referred to this as state authority handoff. and it was at the heart of what would become, at once, a catastrophic policy blunder and an attempt to escape blame for a crisis that has engulfed the country. perhaps one of the greatest failures of presidential leadership in generations. and that once in a generation failure in leadership is also ushering in a grim new political reality for donald trump the typically subservient species formerly known as republicans have finally reached a breaking point "the new york times" reports on a secret society of gop governors who convene without staff on late-night calls to trade advice about best practices and who communicate

with mike pence sometimes. from "the times," quote, once reticent republican governors are now issuing orders on mask wearing and business restrictions that run counter to mr. trump's demands. some of those governors have been holding late-night phone calls among themselves to trade ideas and grievances they have sought out partners in the administration, other than the president, including vice president mike pence, who despite echoing mr. trump in public, is seen by governors as far more attentive to the continuing disaster. so it must have come as a crushing blow to that group of anxious republicans when trump today announced that he's bring back his daily appearances at coronavirus briefings. you know, the ones that were suspended after he suggested injecting disinfectant inside the body, almost like a cleaning, he said. we are all paging sarah cooper just about now but when history looks back on the worst weekend yet in america's handling of the

coronavirus, with more than 206,000 new cases reported, indiana, kentucky, louisiana, and south carolina all breaking single-day records for new infections, is the latest spate of republican defiance of the delusional president too little, too late the sad and sorry state of the american presidency is where we start today. dr. vin gupta, global health policy expert and msnbc medical contributor is here. plus associated press white house reporter, jonathan lamir is back, and msnbc and cnbc, my friend john heilemann is here. john, on any and all of it, i really felt and i haven't said this out loud yet, so i'm curious and anxious to hear what you think, that having lived through the couric interviews of sarah palin, that what was so disastrous was that couric revealed her i think what wallace did was reveal the ignorance of the man who is currently our president,

the indifference to the human suffering, and the fealty to manufacture data that has no basis in reality >> right yeah, and nicole, it's funny that you mention sarah cooper, because i know you're an addict of sarah cooper, millions of people are but what's the sarah cooper brilliance the sarah cooper brilliance is to some extent is when you take the face away and you take the trappings of the office away, you're left with just the words, right? i mean, she's a brilliant comic, but part of why it's powerful is that you get to hear trump's words for what they are, in all of their ridiculousness and all of their absurdity and it's why that satire is funny and devastating to him and i think, in a way, chris wallace did to trump in that interview a little bit of what sarah cooper does to him in her comedy and you see -- you cited two "new york times" story when you're in the white house, as you know, nicole, and you're a republican president and you're getting eviscerated by

both the fake news, in your view, by "the new york times," and your friends at fox news, who you rely on for slavish devotion, you know you're in trouble. and hat's off to chris wallace, hat's off to the "new york times. journalism at its best this weekend of different kinds the interview form that chris wallace delivered and the kind of investigative and other reporting that the "new york times" is doing really laid the president bare for what he is right now and just how dire the situation around him is politically. >> jonathan lamir, another sarah cooper fan, i will share this right now. she's going to be with us tomorrow and i'm dying to ask her first what she's going to do with all of that new material from the new coronavirus briefings that donald trump is restarting my questions for you are so many, but let me start with a two-parter one, how did they think yesterday went and two, why are they putting the president back in the forum

that really put in motion the collapse in his approval rating? >> first of all, that's a great get tomorrow that will be a lot of fun, looking forward to watching that they do not think it went very well, nicole this will not surprise you whatsoever the president was quite angry with how yesterday went, you know, and kudos to chris wallace for a terrific interview and there were a number of places where, of course, the president stumbled, most notably are some you played at the top, about the infection rate, misstating the idea about testing. of course, misstating the mortality rate later, calling dr. fauci an alarmist suggesting once again that he may not honor the election results, you know, that he would have to wait and see before he made that judgment, echoing what he said in 2016, when he claimed the whole process was rigged and many fear that he is on the verge of doing that again now, particularly with his -- the way his attacks, unfounded attacks

on mail-in voting. this is the dilemma, though. the white house is currently having right now is to -- how to best utilize the president of the united states there are some in the building, kellyanne conway and others, who feel like he should be trying to engage the virus a little more head-on here that they should be having briefings again. that the president maybe doesn't need to be involved in all of them, they certainly should be shorter. perhaps he wouldn't take as many questions from reporters but they feel that that was sort of useful for him to be out there. we saw a few minutes ago, he for the first time tweeted an image of himself with a mask mind you, he's still only worn it once in public. others in the building, mark meadows suggest that's not a good idea. he feels like the president often trips up, hurts himself with comments about the virus. he would rather he be out there talking about the economy and other things of course, the deciding vote is the president himself. and he has been saying for months now that he misses those briefings, those forums. they did come to a crashing halt after that comment you said when

he suggested about injecting disinfectant you know, he also -- aides were telling him that his poll numbers were suffering because of the ratings, because he wants to get back out there. he can't have rallies right now. we've seen him use the rose garden for more political events in recent days he wants to have some sort of forum. it's not clear whether the virus briefings would be a daily phenomenon, but we want to hear him more and more. he says he misses the ratings. he wants to be back out there. >> he misses the ratings i don't know where to start. let me ask you a serious question, jonathan lamir on the sort of vein tapped by "the new york times" investigation and part of how we got here, mark meadows offlining the coronavirus task force into a small meeting around the chief of staff's table, a lot of small meetings around the white house chief's table. it does not have enough room for the full complement of the kinds of advisers you would want at the table. and the reporting supports that.

they had dr. birx there with charts the piece devastates dr. birx. i hope she has a job promised to her at the trump hotel company, because they destroyed her credibility as a scientist who's out to get dr. birx? >> there are some people in the building, nicole, who feel that, of course, this response to the pandemic has gone poorly, as you know, in this west wing in particular, there's always a search for scapegoats and always a search for people to blame, particularly when the president has so often said he won't accept responsibility for what's happened he made a passing reference of that this weekend, but we remember when he was asked a few months ago about the testing failures, he said, it wasn't his fault at all but you're right, "the times" laid out reporting that backs up what we've been hearing, as well that dr. birx certainly took a s sunnier approach to the response here while dr. fauci was more airing

on the side of caution with how things were progressing, dr. birx, some feel in the white house now was telling the president what he wanted to hear it will be interesting to see if indeed these coronavirus task force briefings do start up again, will we see either of them dr. fauci has been largely sidelined. he has not been permitted by the west wing to do any sort of cable television interviews. he's had to resort to zooms and facebook lives and things of that nature. we haven't seen dr. birx in a while, either. it will be interesting to see if they're part of this as the president grapples with the idea of trying to get back out there, you know, as infections surge across the country, and the clock is ticking on his re-election bid. we're only five or six weeks away until early voting begins in earnest >> dr. gupta, i want to ask you about the two top scientists in this country both of them battered by their association and efforts, ostensibly, to try to help the country fight the pandemic this "new york times" reporting we're talking about has aides

describing dr. fauci's methodology of working the phones, of calling officials in hot spots and really trying to understand the ground truth in the hospitals, at the places where testing is occurring, the supply chain what is the reality of what they need and what they have. and then they describe the methodology adhered to by dr. birx as almost 100% data driven. it appears that someone in the piece tries to push back and suggest she doesn't just look at models but i wonder as a doctor and as a scientist, what are the process and cons of each approach >> nicole, always good to see you. you know, the pros of dr. fauci's approach is that he's actually understanding the realities on the ground, in a way that dr. birx focuses singularly on models is missing. you know, models are great, but models are only as good as the input into the models. and as you know, nicole, there's been so many uncertainties about quality of data. the department of health in florida is actively manipulating data we don't even know what icu beds

look like in terms of availability so you can only model data in way in which it's actually quality data going in. and so that's why dr. fauci's approach has been so embraced by folks like myself and others on the front lines, because he gets it i'm not saying that dr. birx doesn't get it she has an incredible career in public health in our armed forces but dr. fauci recognizes the human element in a way a model will never capture and it goes to something, i'm hearing all the political headlines that have come out in the last 48 hours. you know what's happening, nicole, just down the hall from me, i'm in our covid icu near seattle. family members are losing their loved ones and having to save c'est good-bye on face time. often the patient's in a coma anyway they can't say good-bye in any meaningful way people are dying the lack of empathy that's happening here from our president on down, the galling way in which the governor of georgia is deciding to sue the mayor of atlanta for not instituting a -- for instituting

a mandatory mask policy, it's complete medical malpractice and it's awful if they walk a moment in our shoes, in a family member's shoes who have dealt with covid and providers who are trying to deal with covid, they would never dare do what they're doing. it's incredible to see what's happened >> because you brought us back to where we belong, talk about what you see happening in the country right now. and what you think our real prospects are for turning the ship around. >> you know, what i'm seeing here, nicole, is that people are scared i've had the american federation of teachers, school districts across the country, teachers, substitute teachers say, doc, what are we going to do? shouldn't we have n-95s in the classroom? if you're wearing one in an enclosed space in a classroom and you think covid is airborne, what should i say? we don't have enough for us. how can we make sure you're safe parents are worried. everybody is worried either for a return to normalcy or their loved ones that are in icus that they can't see we are at a height of anxiety,

nicole, we don't have the political will to deal with. what i'm really concerned about is what i'm seeing at the state level. if the white house strategy is to empower states, look at what governor dewine is doing county-by-county approaches for a virus that knows know boundaries, much less global ones he's doing a county-by-county approach governor kemp, outright dereliction of duty. it's unacceptable. i can go on, but that's what i'm worried about, as are teachers, as are parents across the country. >> and john heilemann, when you just look at our conversation over the last 18 minutes, the extraordinary disconnect between where donald trump mouth goes and you have to assume his head leads him there, and what's on the minds and on the heart and what's weighing on every american family, and i'm thinking about people who have spent their lives building a small business, held their breath through april, got to may, and still made, and just to see the country blow it. see the country literally engulfed in not embers like the

bs pr spin in that times story, engulfed in the flames of this pandemic sk and i've used this metaphor before, you know, pulling the alarm, and nobody's coming >> right, from the very beginning, nicole, you had a president in terms of how he addressed this problem, you know, from the earliest days when you had that ship off the coast of california and the president was like, don't let the ship come ashore because we'll have to count the numbers, think back to that the president'sonly concern throughout has been his political fortunes, has been his ability to get re-elected, has been how this will affect im it's completely consistent with the kind of pathological narcissism we've seen from him from day one but i find it incredible, some of the things this reporting reveals, and particularly the story you cited in "the new york times," how he's been enabled in this moment like the chief of staff. and mark meadows, you know it's

a truism in washington, d.c., that next to the president of the united states, the most powerful person in the country is the white house chief of staff. and everything about the reporting in that story was that the white house chief of staff, rather than saying we need to face squarely into the reality of what's happening or consider what the worst-case scenarios might be going forward, was bias towards a political and substantiative approach that said, we want to assume the best case, rather than the worst case, and we want to turn away from the reality and try to build a political approach that basically denies what's going on don't get too close to us. don't talk about the virus talk about stuff that will take people's minds off of what is the fire that you just described that's engulfing the country it's not only reckless and irresponsible and totally outside the way in which every really good or even decent white house chief of staff that you and i have ever covered or seen in the course of our lifetime,

but it's insane. it's not just bad management and bad politics, but it's -- it's self-evidently was doomed to fail from the moment that they undertook this process and you watch them throughout this story trying to cherry-pick data, get dr. birx to provide the most favorable data and cling to that data rather than doing what anybody would do in this circumstance, which is to say, hey, you know what, maybe this is going to turn out to be okay but if it doesn't turn out to be okay, it could turn out to be really bad and our responsibility here, both substantively and politically should be to make preparations for the worst-case scenario no one around donald trump, and of course donald trump, but no one around him ever seemed to think that that was the way that they should handle this. >> it's all such good points and i guess my last thought, john heilemann is, we should have known when we saw the treatment of migrant children at the border, that people thought

that that was okay to do to human beings decided it would be okay to wait eight to ten days to test people, for the president to have an instant test, and the people that come in contact with him and the rest of the country to have to wait and render contact tracing useless. and to set it all back turn on the light switch, go back to work, go back to school. that's what we've got. that's the guy in charge of our country, at least for now. john heilemann, jonathan lamir, dr. vin gupta or a truly extraordinary day of headlines, thank you so much for talking us through it after the break, the latest attempt by the president to cast doubt on the results of the next election it comes as his poll numbers against joe biden go from bad to absolutely devastating plus, as the nation mourns the death of an icon, john lewis, a call to action in honor of his legacy stands in direct opposition to donald trump's divisive agenda. our dear friend and colleague, joy reid, who starts a new

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are you a good loser >> i'm not a good loser. i don't like to lose i don't lose too often i don't like to lose >> are you gracious? >> you don't know until you see, it depends i think mail-in voting is going to rig the election. i really do. >> can you give a direct answer? you will acceptthe election? >> i have to see i'm not going to just say "yes."

and i didn't last time, either >> another alarming obliteration of presidential and democratic norms that should not be allowed to fade into the noise of today's news cycle donald trump sewing doubt about the outcome of an election that hasn't happened yet, as polls continue to show him trailing his opponent joe biden by gaping margins. the latest from "the washington post" and abc news shows biden up nationally by 15 points, a gap that's widened by five points since may for trump, it's a political crisis largely of his own making that same polling shows americans reject his response to the pandemic and his frequent efforts to down play a virus that has killed 140,000 americans. on the question of which candidate voters trust more to handle the virus, joe biden now has a 20-point lead over donald trump. they are almost neck and neck on the same question back in march. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst, who worked with the sdny civil division, our friend, maya wiley, and former top state

department official, our friend, rick stangl. i have been dying to you, rick stangl, because you and i have started this conversation about what if he doesn't leave and i know i've shared this before that i spoke to a former senior military official who says that you can bet your last dollar that there are conversations within the military about what to do, but it's not something they would have approached with this white house as of yet maybe trump is accelerating that process? >> yes, it's the most chilling and diabolical thing i think a president has ever said. and as you and i have talked about this, i think the republic has to be prepared, congress has to be prepared, the military has to be prepared for an american president to not accept the results of an election, that would undermine the democratic norms that we've all abided by for a couple of hundred of years

so i just -- my brain finds it hard to comprehend and of course, you know, he was trying to put the election last time he thought he was going to lose, he wanted to be able to say that it was rigged and he's doing the sam thing now, although now he is a sitting president >> maya, i struggle with this personally at the beginning, they were misstatements, there were distortions, they were flat-out lies at the beginning, he was caught on "access hollywood" talking, saying, you know, melania called it locker room talk. it was the language of a sexual predator we have shied away from saying what we see, because we can't believe our eyes and i wonder if in that gap between what we see, what we hear, and the minute it takes us to get our baearings, he continues to move the goalpost to say this in a sunday show interview, i may or may not accept the result of an election

in what was once the greatest democracy on the planet should be an international headline >> absolutely. you know, donald trump is desperate and desperate men do desperate things it makes him very dangerous. he's been a danger to our democracy since day one. lying as the commander in chief in and of itself is dangerous, but now we're looking at a president who has, you know, by avoiding the truth about the coronavirus, by stoking fear and hate, we now have 140,000 americans who have lost their lives. and we have a country with so many states with out of control, you know, coronavirus infections that is the kind of thing that he can't lie his way out of. and so what we see is desperation. and that desperation from donald

trump usually ends in distraction. the distractions themselves are extremely dangerous for democracy. calling, for example, in advance the sanctity of our elections, suggesting that things that we know to be true, which is that mail-in balloting is pretty safe, yet he says it's going fraudulent these are all distractions that serve to pull us away from the facts that he can't run from and to stoke fear. and i think that what we have to do is keep our eyes on what matters most to society. and that's us. that's the people of this country. that's our health, that's our safety, and we have to demand that our leaders call their attention to these important issues >> so to that end, rick stangl, joe biden issued this statement. mr. president, your ignorance isn't a virtue or a sign of your strength it's undercutting our response

to this unprecedented crisis at every turn and it's costing americans their jobs and their lives. it's long past due for president trump to listen to somebody other than himself and how to fight this virus, because after six straight months of deadly mismanagement, it is spiraling even more out of control two-part question for you. do you agree we're sort of at this fork of the road, where we're about to drop off into something worse than where we are. and two, if that assessment is right, and i think it is, how bizarre that donald trump's answer is to restart the briefings that put in motion the collapse of his poll numbers >> there's about 16 parts to that question, nicole. i do think that -- >> you can handle it >> okay, my brain is -- i can't -- i'm not a doctor, i can't speak for what's happening. it does seem like it's not that we're going through a second wave, but that parts of the

country are going through a first wave for the first time. and that areas that did go through a first wave like new york may have a resurgence, because people are not taking it quite as seriously as they did what i find so disturbing about this moment in time, and i'm going to use what's going on in portland as an example, donald trump has it exactly in reverse. you should use local and state officials toofd whatev do whate need to do about a constitution, which is a right that our founders put in there so they could protest, skpusand you shob using the federal government to do testing and create ppe. and he's got it exactly backwards. he's telling the states to do testing and deal with the virus and he is saying, yeah, i'm going to go and put in unmarked troops there like vladimir putin in crimea and deal with that so he is the most incompetent president in american history. and what's particularly dangerous is if he starts to use

somethinglike portland as his fire to use that to declare partial law. to send other troops into other parts of the country and say this whole thing with free speech and the free press isn't working under the circumstances. that's the real danger and that's what we've seen throughout history where authoritarians take power. >> rick stangl in there working in a putin/crimea analogy at just the perfect moment in this bizarre journey we're on okay, great news everyone staying put but after the break, our friend joy reid, who debuts her new show tonight and her big interview with joe biden, we get to talk to her, next dear freshpet,

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our nation is founded on the principle that we do not have kings, we have presidents! and the constitution is our compass. when you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something, to do something our children and their children will ask us, what did you do what did you say for some, this vote may be hard, but we have a mission and a

mandate to be on the right side of history >> the conscience of congress, john lewis, civil rights hero and longtime congressman from atlanta, georgia, passed away this weekend after a months-long battle with cancer joining our conversation, host of the brand-new show debuting tonight, "the reidout" premiering at 7:00, my friend and colleague, joy reid. i'm so happy about this news. i'm so happy i'm going to get to watch you at 7:00. you're so important to telling the story of this presidency and this political moment and i just want to send you my congratulations, first >> thank you so much, nicole i truly appreciate you thank you. >> i heard you friday night at about 11:50 call into brian williams' newscast when the sad news broke and i stayed for the

one-hour documentary you had done about congressman lewis and i wanted to ask you about something you said that night. you talked about what he thought of this generation of activists. and it gave me a teeny bit of solace that he was heartened by the black lives matter movement, by the swelling numbers of support for them can you talk about that a little bit more >> i once saw john lewis interact in atlanta with some black lives matter activists, who were really crying out i think this was in 2015 and there were just so many of these cases of black young men and women, you know, being killed by police or being harassed by police and there was so much anger that they felt and he came out and had this gentle spirit and said to them, basically, i was you i know what it is to be angry, to want to scream out and cry out against injustice and want to, you know, curse injustice out, you know? but that, you know, he was a

living example of having taken that spirit of protest you know, his angry 1963 speech that he wanted to give where the white house was ready to start playing music really loud, to drown him out, they were so afraid of that he was going to say, to emerging as this sort of beacon of being able to work with everyone on the hill, probably the most liked member, other than elijah cummings on the hill the two of them were probably the best-liked people in congress and also somebody who never stopped being fear and he never stopped being angry at injustice. and he never gave up on the idea that we could do better and had to do better and if something was wrong, he had to neil, you know, even with all of the physical ailments that he felt, he still felt that he needed to go down on one knee and kneel with the protesters and do that symbolically in the halls of congress and he never stopped being that young man and god bless him and god bless his memory >> and the sound we played was from impeachment

i remember, i think i was anchoring when that happened and you could almost put that frame around literally everything that's happening. i mean, i think there he was saying to his republican colleagues in the house and the senate, just look at what we can all see. the abuse of power is front of all of you, just do the right thing for your kids, for your family how do we -- how do we get back to that? how do we crawl back to that we are so far from that. "the new york times" reporting this weekend about a secret society to have governors that have to meet without staff to bypass all the disinformation and incompetence coming from the federal government i mean, we're so far from what he called for, just in december. >> you know, it's -- i was listening to that segment and it literally boggles my mind that grown men and women have to sneak around and meet to save the lives of their own constituents, because they're afraid that donald trump will be mad at them if they save people's lives this is insane

and you know, john lewis died only a few hours after ct vivian and he was another hero of the civil rights movement. and there was this video of ct vivian confronting not bull connor, but a guy who's standing near bull connor, but who's silent and he says to him, why are you following him. why are you letting him drag you into the pit of hell dragging you into the worst depths of history. he's dragging you towards na naziism. why you letting him do that? you need to man up and walk away from him and john lewis was crying out to republicans, you can walk away from him you don't have to do this. the idea that you would let -- i think about the florida governor almost every day because i still have so many friends down there you really would rather let people die than defy this one man? he's not god he's just a man. but the cowardice that you can

key on the hill is shocking. john lewis was literally 17 years old when he started defying the police that could kill him in the street he was 23 when he got up in front of 250,000 people and spoke before the march on washington king didn't even make 40 and he laid down his life and his country. he was 26, john lewis, when he got beaten in the head these were basically kids and they had more courage than a member of congress, of the senate the kids in florida, you know, who marched against gun violence after they faced a gunman in school they were like 17. i met those kids those kids have the spirit of john lewis the parkland kids. these men in congress, these women in congress, how dare they risk people's lives because they think trump will be mad and he'll tweet at them. pathetic >> it sure is. and you're going to have, because you're you, both joe biden and hillary clinton on tonight.

and how much of this infuses your line of questioning for both of them tonight what do you want them to answer for you and for your viewers tonight? >> i believe just asking -- all they can say is no, right? we're like, ask for everybody. we're like, obama! can we get michelle and -- >> get used to it! >> yeah, but, i have so many questions. because, you know, if he wins, joe biden is going to inherit hell, you know and he's been there before, inheriting hell with president obama. they emerged into an economic catastrophe in a failed war in iraq and all of that, but this will be worse. so i'm very curious to see how he responds to that. there are literally a secret police force in the streets of an american city and soon to be deployed to more this is unprecedented. and i think between the two of them hillary clinton, having been secretary of state, she looked out into the world and said, what can we help to fix in the world.

you know, what country do we need to be moved by the suffering of the people in the streets? well, now that country is us the country that people pity is us the people where people are dying in unbelievable numbers and a seemingly helpless government can't stop it, we are that country we are the pitied country. we are the country some other nation's minister of state is trying to help figure out how to fix. that is a sad state of affairs god bless the man who wants to be president in these circumstances, because it will not be easy. >> and the woman who tried to warn us. i remember what hillary clinton said, do you really want someone who can be baited with a tweet as your president? we have watched him being baited about shutting down states, we have seen him being baited about liberate virginia. just about everything she predicted that has come to pass has, indeed. and you're right about what joe

biden will inherit i can't wait to watch you tonight and every night. thank you so much for spending time with us i know it's a busy day we'll be watching. >> thank you so much, nicole take care. >> tune in tonight for joy's new show "the reidout. joining her, joe biden and hillary clinton. don't miss it. after the break, donald trump -- after the break, maya will be back, rickta sngl will be back. we'll all be back. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪

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incidentally, i took the test too when i heard that you passed it. >> how did you do? >> well, it's not the hardest test the picture, it's an elephant. >> you see, that's all misrepresentation. >> well, that's what it was on the web. >> it's all misrepresentation. >> yes, the questions are easy i bet you couldn't answer the last five questions. they get very hard >> one of them was count back from 100 by 7. >> maya and rick are back. maya, i said in the last hour if you have known anyone with alzheimer's or dementia, it's a gut punch to see trump playing whatever he's playing, presidential politics or president follow this shiny object by bragging about his results on a test meant to screen out cognitive decline >> any mother had alzheimer's and i was fortunate enough to keep her home with me for several years. it is a gut punch and what's

also clear is that we're having an unfortunately a credible and important conversation about donald trump's cognitive capacity i think every one of us who has experience with anyone we love having cognitive decline, we recognize what these tests feel like when our family members are taking them. donald trump's defensiveness is in and of itself a concern because it indicates that he does feel that he may have some cognitive decline. by the way, that's not our biggest problem right here in and of itself. it's that we have a republican party as joy said earlier that is not circling the wagons around democracy but is circling the wagons of secrecy around whether or not donald trump is prepared and able to serve and whether or not we have a go

government that isa abusing its power as we have seen in portland he's not leading us into a conversation about solutions at a time when we need to talk about whether we're bailing people out in term of their rent and instead he's trying to hide testing and high dollars for testing and emergency aid package. is that cognitive decline or is it just because he's a horrible leader only the voters can decide but there's no question that whether it's one or the other or both, donald trump has created a very real conversation about his cognitive capacity and that's something we all have to be concerned about. >> rick, i have covered and i can detail every bit of journalism around his mental state. david brooks quoted some

republican senators leaving a briefing in 2018 describing his rambling rambling resembling someone in early alzheimer's. senator corker said he's not displayed the competence for the job he has john bolton said he's unfit. i thought it was after he was out of office that the truth emerge but now we have donald trump constantly talking about his acing, i'm not sure anyone as the screen for cognitive function and talk about his answers as though it was a math test it's not a math test i just wonder if we're moving too fast that we don't sit in this revelation from the president yesterday for a minute more >> i'm less concerned about his cognitive decline or iq than his maturity i'm the father of two boys

i would say that conversation would have happened when they were nine years old, ten years old, 11. the test is really hard. i bet i can do better than you can. his mental age is in the single figures. the other thing about the issue of cog ani the other thing about the issue of cog antive decline it's like, i don't care about his acuity i care about his morality. i don't care about how he processes problems, i care about his ethics he's the first president we have had that's a sociopath who has no morals and ethics that's the whole ball game when we focus on cog ani when we focus on cog antive decline and him not processing and counting back to 50 by 7, that gets away from the problem of the unconstitutionality, his abuse of power those are what concern me. cognitive decline has nothing to

do with that >> maya and rick, two people i know and love so much. i notice you're in different rooms. thank you for spending some time with us. we can't end the program without celebrating a few lives well lived the very best humanity has to offer are often the people who want the best for others it was a life, a mission for adrian gomez making sure children on the border had a good education and happy he was an assistant program director at a shelter in brownsville, texas the job he held proudly because he wanted to make a difference in other people's lives. his daughter said her dad loved every one. he had a huge heart. he was only 52 we're thinking about his family today hoping they feel some small comfort knowing how much good he left on the world. we also want to tell you about samantha diaz.

she's the granddaughter of a mexican migrant. a young woman who should have been celebrating her 30th birthday next week she became a mom as a teenager she worked her way through school became a medical technician and got a job along side a card kol gist in florida. her family grew. she recently became a mother of three. a teenager plus a 1-year-old and 2-year-old it's tragedy that this week her aunt had to remind herself how to change diapers because samantha died of the coronavirus ten days ago palm beach post hit it on the head samantha diaz was the american dream. that's how we'll remember her. thank you so much for watching, for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. our coverage continues with the fabulous katie tur after a quick break. we've got the retinol that gives you results in one week. not just any retinol. accelerated retinol sa.

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we're definitely getting more admissions every day than we're having discharges. we're starting to fill up. >> we don't know when it's going to stop. i know everybody is getting sick out and around time. we know that more is coming at some point trying to brace ourselves for the long haul. >> i would much rather see us be able to prevent infections rather than trying to deal with the consequences and people in the hospital and the hospitals fi