but that case turned on what cohen is allowed to say and do i tell you tonight, the much larger question is whether americans will accept or challenge what bill barr is trying to do as he executes his notions of trump justice that does it for us. thank you as always for watching "the beat," we will be back at 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow, and "the reid out" is up next with joy reid over, and over again, donald trump has made it clear that he will not take responsibility for the escalating coronavirus crisis in this country blame china, he told us on sunday it is what it is >> the death chart is a thousand cases a day. >> excuse me it's all too much, it should not be one case. it came from china, they should never have let it escape, they

should never have let it out but it is what it is >> tonight, trump has launched season two of his coronavirus briefings show so the task force itself was notably absent but as he shirks responsibility for the very real health crisis, he is deploying a federal police force. to combat a fictional one. they sent a federal police force, and there's a mini army sent to portland, oregon, to go against protesters acting against the will of the governor and the mayor trump's forces are snatching people off the streets and forcing them in to unmarked vans without explanation and now trump is threatening to send the same police to more american cities and distinctly to cities that happen to be run by democrats. >> i will do something, that i can tell you because we are not going to let new york and chicago and philadelphia and detroit and

baltimore and all of these -- oakland is a mess. we are not going let this happen in our country all run by liberal democrats portland, they have done a fantastic job, they have been there three days and they really have done a fantastic job in a short period of time no problem they grab them, a lot of people in jail, they are leaders. these are not protesters >> "new york times" reports no president in modern time has threatened to send in federal law enforcement over local opposition now, drawing from a grab bag of agencies just for reference here, are some of the protests that we have seen in portland. a peaceful group of moms gathered to demonstrate. but trump would have you believe that america's cities are criminal waste lands and he is using the trumped up charge to identify what any other country

would be called the secret police, responsive only to the dear leader. much like the so-called immigrant migrant caravan that he hyped in the 2018 mid terms this is a new distraction. and as trump's ominous new campaign ad suggests, it's a campaign ploy to stoke lawlessness fears ahead of the election joining me is kamala harris. thank you for being here this evening, senator >> thank you >> thank you, and donald trump named oakland, california, among the cities that he is now decided are the lawless nightmare cities that need to have his secret police on hand your thoughts on what he is doing and whether the senate, whether the senate or congress or anyone can do anything to stop him >> well, joy, first of all, congratulations on your show and it's a wonderful thing to be with you this week so, look, just go down the list.

it does not require the imaginations to see the connections between baltimore and detroit, and oakland as a daughter of oakland, born in oakland, the connection is clear to me. i will say this. first of all, as a member of the senate, homeland security committee, i'm officially demanding that one, the administration pull those officers from portland not dispatch them to any other city and two, that they investigate the misconduct of those officers in portland. but, putting it in the broader context. imagine this, donald trump, who is otherwise completely hands off and has absolved himself of any responsibility on dealing with the biggest crisis that our country has faced, a public health crisis and economic crisis, but is hands on in deploying law enforcement to cities against the will of the leaders of those cities and states whereas he could, be hands on in

getting resources to local and state governments so they can manage the covid crisis. whereas he can be hands on to have a national testing strategy and strategy for contract tracing and a national strategy for ppes, nothing. this is yet again, an example of donald trump, trying to go around, what should be his responsibilities as a president of the united states and instead, he is trying to insight fear and also, distract from his failures as a president. >> you know, it's -- there's two pieces of it that are ominous, there's the secret police aspect the sort of unmarked military looking forces that are essentially kidnapping people and holding them without any, you know, not even talking ingo the local officials and the rhetoric coming out of washington i want to play two pieces of sound for you. one of them is mayor lightfoot, she was on last night and this is what she said about the threat of federal forces coming to her city. >> our democracy is at stake and

i will be darned if i'm going to let anybody, even if their name is mr. president bring those kind of troops to our city and try to take off our residents. that's not going to happen in chicago. >> and here is what i think is one of the most chilling pieces of audio that i have heard in a long time. this is chad wolf, he is the acting secretary of did department of home land security, this is how he said he respects the authority of those like mayor lightfoot >> i don't need invitations by the state, state mayors or state governors to do our job, we are going to do it whether they like us there had or not. >> is that true? do the states have any control over whether the secret police come in to the town and start arresting people >> so, to the point of the last interview that you showed, chad wolf, i'm leading a letter tomorrow, again, in my capacity as a member of the senate, a

committee on homeland security, to get answers to these folks have been deployed and what was their mission and at who's direction. it is clear that they are going around the local authorities and state authorities and engaging in actions that are not only in violation of folks constitutional rights and the state's local, ability to make decisions for the safety of their communities and well beings of their communities. it's important to note that they sent these law enforcement officers in to cities wearing camouflage camouflage we send folks in to war wearing camouflage, so they can blend in to the environment to ensure their safety has they are deployed on a mission that is in our national interests so, what is going on here? when you send camouflage

uniformed officers in to a city without any clear identification, to direct their, their force at peaceful protesters there's clearly, there's clearly an abandonment of mission, not only by the department of homeland security when doing that but clearly by the president of the united states donald trump >> yeah, i would be remiss if i did not ask this question. i have asked you this question ten times i will ask you again last night on this program, joe biden the former vice president of the united states, he said that he four women on the short list in terms of people he is considering for vice president do you know whether you are one of the four women? four blackwomen? >> i am not going to speak for the vice president, joy. and i appreciate you asking the question i'm honored to be in the conversation and i'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that joe biden is elected the next president of the united states, and every conversation that you are having every night with all of these leaders makes

so clear why >> yep >> donald trump is incapable of leading our country during any time and in particular in a moment of crisis joe biden has the experience, he has the will,he the desire and the ability to lead our country through this crisis, and closer to the ideals which we hold dear >> last question before i let you go, senator, there's lot of people out there that talked about the idea, they would love to see you be the attorney general of the united states, put yourself in the mind-set of attorney general do you believe some of the things we have seen happen, in the streets of portland, the caging of children, and the corruption, do you believe this administration engaged in criminal behavior and the next attorney general should investigate members of the administration, including bill barr and the president of the united states? >> first, we have to win the election there's no guarantee that we

will do that it concerns me when we see the polling and people get a little happy and get comfortable with it four months is a lifetime in a campaign and an election cycle we first have to win and that is about encouraging people to vote and fighting against the states that are suppressing voters getting people to the polls. and we have to make sure that people are healthy and have jobs that's where my focus is trying to get mitch mcconnell to put the heroes act on the floor, because people are about to fall off the cliff at the end of the month because of the benefits are expiring. >> senator harris, i had to ask you. thank you. >> thank you you take care. >> thank you, very much. joining me now is eric h holder, jr., the 82nd attorney general of the united states and the chairman of the national democratic redistricting

committee. attorney holder, thank you so much, it's great to with you this evening i want to pick up on what we were discussing what i was discussing with senator harris these forces that we are seeing deployed in to the streets of america's cities, you know, a generation ago, when federal had forces were deployed in to american cities -- it was a relief to people of color. it meant that a little girl may get walked in to school. onner a james meredith could be walked in to the university of mississippi that the v amcalvara coming, now, it's to tear gas and abuse people and in some cases snatch people off the streets without identifying themselves essentially kidnap them. it's a secret police vibe instead of a cavelry what do you think? >> first of all, congratulations

on your show with regard to the use of these forces you are right, in the past, my sister-in-law was escorted in to the university of alabama as a result of the federal forces directed by president john kennedy. that's the way in which the forces should be appropriately be used. to deploy the forces without any coordination of local authorities and any indication that there's a request by local authorities for it to be done, i think runs, puts us in a very dangerous place. you cannot have an administration in washington, d.c., using federal resources. federal forces to simply enforce the law in states where, or in cities where it thinks that it wants to project force it's frankly this administration that is making determinations based on things other than the needs of those local communities. and so, i think that mayor lightfoot, when she said that, she will accept help in an appropriate way, but if not, she will fight the deployment of the

forces that is an appropriate thing for a mayor to do. >> there's another sort of dark place, when it comes to the trump administration you think of what an autocratic nation could would do. i want to show you a tweet that was put out today. i don't like reading his tweets but here is one. mail-in voting unless changed by the courts will lead to the most corrupt elections in history he keeps talking about mail-in voting potentially being the seeds of a rigged election and i want to play you what was played on morning joe this morning and this was something that people are talking about and talking about. i want to get your response. >> okay. >> he is talking about sending, these unmarked, para military guards to places with democrat, and blue states with very blue cities run by democratic mayors. i think we should all take very seriously the prospect that this is, as i say, a dress rehearsal, a trial run for first an attempt

at voter t r intimidation elect day. are they going to be security at the polls at battleground states think that's a question we would like to have answered. >> are you concerned about that, that these paramilitary forces will be used to surpress the vote >> if you asked me about any other president, i would say of course not that's a script from a bad movie. this president has demonstrated that they have a capacity to go lower than we can imagine. yeah, i think we have to be concerned about that his attempt to talk about mail-in voting and all the fraud that is associated with it is incorrect. he is trying to set up a situation where he has the ability to delegitimatize a vote he may lose. if he loses and i expect that he will, then we have to be prepared for what he is going to do in the immediate after math of such a loss, and what he will

do for the time period between the election and the inauguration of the next president. we have to be prepared for things that this nation has never faced before and unfortunately that could involve the use of, you know, these forces, who knows what he will do and the people who are in, as part of his administration will support him in doing >> yeah. you know, donald trump has joked about cancelling the election. you know ha, ha, h -- he has talked about eliminating immigrants from the census and he makes one wonder if he will leave if he loses the election do you think he will attempt to remain in office even if he loses? >> yeah, there's nate mare scenarioses and we can wind them out. it should not take us away from the focus. he has to be beat. beaten badly people need to get out and vote,

we need to fight for giving people the ability to vote at home people call it vote by mail. i call it vote at home, for people who want to get to the polls. they have to have a healthy environment so that poll workers will be safe so the american people don't have to decide between keeping themselves healthy and engaging in the civic responsibility. that's the primary thing we have to focus on. i think we can handle anything that he can try you to do after a devastating loss >> former attorney general eric holder it's great to have you on the show thank you for being here appreciate your time tonight >> great to see you. >> thank you very much and up next on "the reid out," season two the of the trump show the script looks like season one. he gets in a world of trouble and surrenders and declares victory. to his supporters, trump is now the masked hero, high ho silver. >> it was a dark black mask and i thought it looked okay looked like the lone ranger. >> just hours after tweeting

about covid patriotism he peeled back that mask in a crowd full of people to reveal his true identity. when "the reid out" continues. aetna never did. we're always here to help you focus on your health. because it's always, time for care. find your get-up-and-go. find pants that aren't sweats. find your friends. find your sense of wander. find the world is new, again. at chevy we'd like to take you there. now during the chevy open road sales event, get up to 15% of msrp cash back on select 2020 models. that's over fifty-seven hundred dollars cash back on this equinox. it's time to find new roads, again.

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at this point, the core of the economy is donald trump, what he will take responsibility for and what we won't. he is having a fake war on democratic cities, he will bring law and order to the unrulely tree lined streets in gated communities. he is doing that because he is making it clear he will not take responsibility for the actual crisis that is affecting america. the explosion of coronavirus cases in this country. something he could do something about. more than 142,000 americans have now died

as the u.s. approaches 4 million cases. trump goes back to what he knows. putting on a show, tonight, he returned to a podium without any health experts to give an update to the american people, it was his first quote unquote briefing on the pandemic since april 27th since then, coronavirus cases have surged across the south and the west particularly in states where governors are doing thinks bidding and there's new evidence that the number of cases may be much higher than what states are reporting. the cdc put out a study saying that one, cases in some regions could be 6-24 times higher than reported the other showed infection rates could be ten times higher. but according to donald trump's twitter, we are doing well compared to the other countries. dr. davidson, we will go to you

first. we have a mash up of his statements that don't necessarily agree. >> wear a mask, get a mask whether had yyou like the mask r not, they have an impact, they will have an affect. if you can, use the mask, when you can, use the mask. anything that potentially can help, and that certainly can potentially help is a good thing. in recent weeks we have seen a concerning rise in the cases in many parts of our south. we have embers and fires and big fires, it will unfortunately get worse before it get s before, th virus will disappear it was all today he was going back and forth in his own mind your thoughts, dr. davidson? >> yeah, it's concerning to me that six months to the day from the first case of coronavirus in this can country, we are having this kind of a discussion from our president. there's a lot of we are going to

do talk in this briefing and you know, theses are things we should have been doing this was a speech that would have been great in february, maybe early march, if then he said that we should be wearing masks and or that we should take it seriously or it will be worse before it gets better. the other piece is testing, he is telling us how many tests he has done we have turn around a tests that are taking a week to two weeks that need to be one or two days or less. so, yeah, it's so much mixed messaging. his message about not wearing masks have gotten out to my community and people are resisting it and resisting our governor who is mandating masks. we need more from the president. >> you are seeing a phenomnon, what are you seeing? they don't think it's real what is the reason they are saying they don't want to wear the mask >> i had a patient come in the emergency department and we asked him to put on a mask and he said, that's not real, i

don't need to do that. and i had a very brief discussion but it's not my job to ghetto a fight with somebody. there's a law called that i should treat every person. i had to pull on the full n-95 and face shield and gown to see a patient for a simple process that came in and this is the kind of lasting impact that the president's words have on people that listen to him all the time. >> you know, and you know, philip, the back side of that is that, because that's the way his supporters feel, because he helped make them feel that way then the governors who are beholden to him are afraid to contradict him and so, then they carry out that same procedure in their states and then people die. florida. texas. people are dying georgia. and they are fighting against masks themselves and mandates because of it. there's an extraordinary story um, of, you know, that i found extraordinary about republicans who for months have had regular

sneaky conference calls at night without staff present. the conversations have been a sort of safe space where the governors can ask their counterparts for advice, discussing best practices and if the mood strikes them, vent about the president and his eradict leadership so basically they are sneaking and having secret conversations, rather than confronting them or doing the right thing by their public what is happening? >> well, joy, they are afraid of the president personally and politically. but some of the governors actually want to govern. they got elected to try to help the people in their state and they have a conscious, and they know there's a pandemic raging that is taking lives and devastating economies. i'm thinking of mike dewine, the republican governor of ohio. they are trying to do right by their state. larry hogan in maryland, he is trying to do the right thing here and he is exasperated by

the lack of national direction from president trump and they are trying to get together and put some solutions together privately because they know if they were to have these public brawls with the president, it a, would not save any lives or help them in their states but b, they would face a political backlash from the president's loyal supporter who is are everywhere. they are a minority in the country. but they are a majority with in the republican primary eelectric tore ate in a lot of states. >> is there anything happen in the reporting and how are governors like the governor of florida, ron desantis and the governor of georgia, viewed by other republican governors do they see them as cowards or doing the smart political thing? >> i think there's mixed views of course among all of the governors. certainly, they have been out front in making the early decisions to re-open, which in retrospect, most of the public

health experts will say were tragic mistakes. the virus has ravaged those states and they have not been able to gain control, in the assessment of most of the health authorities who are watching the decisions they have been making. >> dr. are davidson, the final question to you, dr. fauci was asked about the briefing an hour before it happened he said that he was not invited. do you think it would help had you dealing with your patients if he was the person speaking about the pandemic >> he absolutely should be the voice. he is the most trusted individual he has been there 32 years, advised six presidents and he is an expert. and he speaks not with politics in mind, but with public health in mind. and you know, these governors who need guidance, they should look to dr. fauci. they are sending, now talking about sending teachers and students back in to the classrooms without having the testing regimen available to keep us safe they have been pushing and pushing and pushing to keep the

economy open to push it further and we are seeing the spikes that mr. rucker said coming up in the south and just raging and we need the public health people to take control. >> philip, rucker, dr. rob davidson thank you both stay safe, appreciate your time tonight. >>. >> thank you. >> thank you >> still ahead, trump's use of racist rhetoric is a problem, but the biggest problems are the official policies that follow suit stay with us how they gonna pay for this? they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident. cut! is that good? no you were talking about allstate and... i just... when i... accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today. accident forgiveness from allstate. ior anything i want to buy isk going to be on rakuten. rakuten is easy to use, free to sign up and it's in over 3,000 stores.

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okay, there's a concept in the media called type. characters in the media can either play to type. or play against type for example, think of the classic movie, what ever happened to baby jane? in that movie, joan crawford, one of hollywood's notorious bad girls played the innocent victim, and betty davis, who usually played the sweet fem femfatal played the villain. here's the scene. >> you would not be able to do the awful things to me if i were not in this chair. >> but you are, blanche, you are

in that chair. and tell me what are these awful things i'm supposed to be doing to you >> but you are, you are in the chair. that was two actresses playing against type donald trump was never an actor, you know, sure, he started in, you know, for a time, for a time, what was a hit tv show, where he pretended to be a successful businessman, when in fact, he had squandered the money he inherited from his tax dodging daddy, and he needed help from deutsche bank and russia but what he was playing was a rich, malevolent racist man, that was striking on out at people more intelligent than he is think barack obama he was flipping out again at athletes that kneeled for black lives matter he has launched a bull connor

style freak out and self implementing violent pleasing to shut down black lives matter protests, using secret police. and as far as this is anti-white obsession, he told four american congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from on the same day, he announced nationwide immigration raids even though all four are u.s. citizens and all but one, who is a u.s. citizen was born in the u.s. and we will have more after u.s. and we will have more after this break ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ sstop struggling to clean tough messes with sprays. try clean freak! it has three times the cleaning power of the leading spray to dissolve kitchen grease on contact. and it's great for bathrooms!

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well, donald trump continues his fearmongering, people are taking to the streets demand thing racial and economic quali equality 120,000 essential workers in 160

cities walked off the job, to demand better pay, and better health care and the dismantling of systemic racism we were reminded that the civil rights movement did not end, we are in the midst of it thank you for being here and thank you for saying that. because, you know, i think people compartmentalize this civil rights thing as something that ended i don't think that we talk enough about it that protests are still happening. can you explain what you think the protesters are gaining, if you are thinking they are gaining anything by staying in the streets? >> well, indeed, every bit of social change and meaningful progress brought about was ushered in due to protests so, you know, what are they

gaining? i think they are old fights that picture that i tweeted, if you just, it shows that just, just the fact that john lewis, was an original architect of the black lives matter movement. this is another iteration and example of that. i believe we are in a new moment of racial reckoning. a national reckoning on racial justice. it's a multi-generational sustainable movement and we are seeing a culture shift and i believe we are ushering in a paradigm and power shift that will be codified in our laws and budget it has shifted the national discourse and conversation >> i think it's important to talk about budget. whenever people ask me, people say, why do we defund the police it's about the budget of black mayors it's about shifting you know,

priority through the budget. these protests are not about health care specifically but health care, you tweeted something about health care that i had to retweet you with a comment. it moved me. you tweeted, explain to me how you can live through the covid-19 crisises and not support medicare for all there's no doubt in any decent, any just and decent society, covid testing treatment and vaccines when we have them should be free i retweeted, i was a skeptic for medicare for all back when the affordable care act was being negotiated i thought, how will doctors get paid and how will union workers that negotiated -- i looked at the -- people that are facing bills of $75,000s if they are uninsured,

the idea that somebody could get cov covid and go broke, because our health care system is tied to our job. it does not make sense to me i'm won over to the m4a, medicare for all side. you are talking to those that have political power like you do are people that are not as sold on m4a, changing their mind because of covid includie ining joe biden? >> it's taken a pandemic to realize what weer already know many americans don't have equitable access to health care. i represent a district that has been hardest hit by the pandemic also has some of the starkest health disparities, we are in a three-of mile radius, life expectancy drops by 30 years it has everything to do with the

comorbidity of racism. it is sad that it took a tragic loss of life to understand that we need medicare for all 5.4 million people across the country have lost access to health insurance no one should have to die because they are sick. and no one should have to go bankrupt because they are sick and so, as i said, at the start of this, joy these are old fights but a new moment and i think there are many, many policy debates and issues that have been othered and marginalized and not satake seriously that we have to have the meaningful debates and conversations. one thing is for sure, a return to the status quo normal, is unjust, insufficient and inadequate and we have to usher in a paradigm shift and that means health care justice. while we are talking about health care, it's important during this national reckoning, on racial injustice that we

acknowledge that racism in itself is a public health crisis and there are many municipality and towns, three in my district. boston, cambridge and summerville have said as uch and we are gaining sponsors to submit a bill to health and human services declaring racism as a public health crisis. again, in the black and latinex communities and those that were hit hardest, it's about the fact that we dominate a central workforce. >> absolutely. the new wall street yurnl poll, 56% of americans say american society is racist and 52% of voters say it's appropriate for pro athletes to kneel had in the national anthem, and 51% have a positive view of black lives matter the people in the streets are winning. and that's good news >> may i add, that declaration

is not a -- it means we will invest the resources to be anti-racist and dismantle structural racism. it is systemic >> nobody can say the government does not have the money. they ladeled it out. they can't say they don't have the money. they have the money, that is for sure >> you mow what i wish i wish donald trump and the administration would invest as much energy and time on developing a national testing and contact tracing strategy as they are in bringing tierney in police states throughout the country. >> that's a word thank you very much, also great to talk with you, thank you so much >> thank you, congratulations! >> thank you, thank you very much thank you, thank you, i appreciate you have a good night and still ahead, what does roger stone have on donald trump, hm-mm, that hillary clinton to say this

on "the reid out" last night >> it's clear that stone threatened him >> first, the craziest damn thing in the world, that is next we're always here to help you focus on your health. because it's always, time for care. you can't always stop for a fingerstick.betes ♪ with the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you don't have to. with a painless, one-second scan

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they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident. cut! is that good? no you were talking about allstate and... i just... when i... accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today. okay, you know what is crazy? not wearing a mask in public during a pandemic! but even crazier, the president's bizarre back and forth on the issue it's been four months since the

cdc advised the public to wear masks, it was yesterday that trump finally seemed to get on board. he called it patriotic and said there's nobody more patriotic than me had. mind you, that picture was not from yesterday, it was from ten days ago when he put one on after months of mask denial. >> well, i just only wear one myself i think wearing a face mask as i greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens, i don't know, somehow i don't see it for myself. >> okay, now we were supposed to believe that there was a new more responsible trump that now wore masks and there was much rejoicing on the right. georgia senator purdue thanked the president for great leadership and linsey graham said, well done and of course on fox there was this >> well, i think the president is becoming a leader on this issue. maybe now once again, maga, will

stand for masks are great again. >> but the new found patriotism has limits trump was at his d.c. hotel near a crowd of people and not fulfillingpeople, but the craziest damn thing in the world is not that trump so quickly discarded his newfound mask evangelism. the craziest thing is that lindsey graham, the man who praised trump just a few hours earlier, was also at the trump hotel steps away from trump and totally maskless well done, senator graham. that is the "craziest damn thing" in the world today. ♪

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last night right here on "the reidout," hillary clinton questioned donald trump's decision to commute his friend, roger stone's prison sentence. >> it's an ongoing cover-up that trump and stone are two of the major participants in to try to prevent us from knowing all of the details about what they actually did in 2016 so, what he did was to use the awesome power of commutation as part of the pardon power of the president to basically shut up roger stone so that roger stone would not spill any more beans about what actually happened and how much donald trump actually knew >> i am joined now by two people who have interviewed roger stone

since his commutation, morris kelly, known as mo kelly, host of "the mo kelly show" on kfi in los angeles, and howard fineman, msnbc news analyst mo, to you first i want to play some of the interview you did with roger stone that's proved to be controversial. take a listen. >> your friendship and relationship and history with donald trump weighed more heavily than him just wanting to make sure that justice was done by a person in the justice system that you were treated so unfairly there are thousands of people treated unfairly daily how your number just happened to come up in the lottery, i'm guessing it was more than just luck, roger, right >> i don't want to start arguing with this negro. >> we heard what he said that. in a statement to the "associated press" roger stone said anybody who knows roger knows he hates racism. mr. kelly needs a waxing of the ears because at no time did i call him a negro, stone said,

using the lowercase of the word. that case, mr. o'kelly needs to spend time studying institutions negro is far from a racial slur. he said he didn't call you that. what are your thoughts >> this man has been convicted of lying to congress and witness tampering. the truth is never on his side, and i will put my record up against his. but there's something more important, a substantive issue, because his sentence was commuted as opposed to a pardon. that allows him a legal strategy where he can plead the fifth later on there has to be a discussion of whether there was an implicit or explicit agreement or a quid pro quo, dare i say, as to get him out of jail. there is a pattern, a through-line with donald trump where you have paul manafort out of jail, michael flynn, didn't go into jail, and roger stone out of jail, or afforded jail, all thanks to donald trump and he's going back to work for a campaign which is going to, or already impeached president who tried to enlist the aid of a foreign government to be re-elected there are some parallels here and a pattern. >> you know, and howard, last

night, hillary clinton implied that donald trump, that this is part of the cover-up, right, that there were crimes committed and the reason this commutation happened was to cover up for those crimes you interviewed rong stone very recently i'll read a little bit of this and stone says to you "i had 29 or 30 conversations with trump during the campaign period he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. i would have eased my situation considerably it would have eased my situation considerably, but i didn't they wanted me to play judas i refused. what do you know about what roger stone did or didn't do >> well, what i know is that he told me that he had during the course of the campaign year season 29 or 30 conversations with the president that was news. i hadn't heard that before i'm not sure anybody had and i would deduce from the fact that roger said, "i could ease my situation considerably" if i cooperated with the feds, that he had something of value to tell the feds.

i mean, that's the logic of it, and that's why hillary clinton rightly said that we don't know the full story, as she knows, since hillary started out as a watergate-era prosecutor the key question is, what does the president known and when did he know it and presumably, you have to assume, since roger thought he could ease his situation, that there were things in those 29 or 30 conversations that would be of great interest to the feds, and that's why we don't know the whole story. >> and mo, did you get the sense in talking to him that roger stone knows something, that he's holding back to help donald trump? >> absolutely. this guy's been connected to richard nixon and many presidents since he's too smart to be dumb. he doesn't have to explicitly say it over the airwaves it's understood that if he's communicating with wikileaks, and he was already convicted of it, there's a degree, a modicum of knowledge that this, in a material way, that probably the general public would want to know, and a president who is afraid of even his taxes being

released, i'm quite sure he doesn't want the memory of roger stone to come back to haunt him. >> and quickly before we let you go, howard fineman, what might he know about manafort and all the rest of it because you know, the two of them used to be business partners. >> oh, of course i think that's a big part of it. i think roger stone always specialized in putting himself like a spider at the center of the web, and i'm sure he knows a ton about manafort and everybody, every other name that you've heard in the whole story. and that's why he was valuable and that's why he didn't cooperate. >> would he ever turn on donald trump, let's say to write a book, you think? >> that's possible, but not in this situation, because what he had -- the only thing he had was his ability to show the president that he was being loyal down the line. >> yeah. >> where he would never turn, and that's the story as of right now. >> absolutely. well, maybe if he wrote a book, the rnc might buy 300,000 copies of it, make it a best-seller morris o'kelly, howard fineman, thank you so much. that is "the reidout."

tomorrow night, i have former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and former wnba star renee montgomery, who is sitting out this season to fight for social justice and voting rights "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in," as coronavirus records break across america, with more than 142,000 americans dead, the president let slip that they never had a plan and still don't >> we are in the process of developing a strategy that's going to be very, very powerful. we've developed as we go along then, beto o'rourke on the covid catastrophe in the rio grande valley and why the texas governor is undermining efforts to stop it plus, the push to get kids back to school, no matter what the risk to them and their families and as the department of homeland security defends it