it's something that could further exacerbate these racial and economic disparities that we're already trying to come to grabs with and figure out solutions for in this time. >> yeah, and this pandemic has further exacerbated that racial and economic disparity. alexi mccammond, thank you. always great to see you, my friend. i am going to be reading "axios a.m." in a bit. you can sign up for the newsletter at axios.com. that's it for me this morning. i'm yasmin vossoughian. "morning joe" starts right now. all of our friends who are just fighting to survive, they would love him to follow the biden plan, even if they're republicans and conservatives, to listen to the scientists, listen to the doctors. >> i feel like he should really say from the outset, ladies and gentlemen, i have reflected on this period and i have decided that i am now embracing the spirit of bipartisanship. one place in which we will not have a fight or a brawl in this campaign is over a matter of public health. and so, in the spirit of leading the country and unifying the nation, i am now embracing publicly and full-throatedly the biden plan.

>> i don't think he'll do that. >> that's not happening, guys. >> i mean, and i certainly don't think he'll do -- i'm going to follow the biden plan -- that joe biden actually put in writing at the end of january -- >> and signed his name to it. >> -- person coming in from china. whatever. even if he doesn't call it the biden plan, to actually follow the advice of doctors and scientists and let them lead in these discussions. even if he doesn't call it the biden plan, he could actually -- he could just embrace it. >> were you invited to the briefing today? >> i was not invited up to this point. i'm assuming that i'm not going to be there, because it's going to be in just a short while, and i'm still here at the nih, so i'm assuming it's not going to be there. >> why are your doctors not with you today? where is dr. fauci? where is dr. birx? >> well, dr. birx is right outside. >> well, he didn't follow the biden plan. the doctors -- >> wait, wait, wait -- >> -- were not there. >> we have her outside.

>> president trump returned to the briefing room alone and stuck to several of his often-told lies about the virus, about the country's mortality rate, testing, availability of suppli supplies, and yet again, claiming that the virus will just disappear. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, july 22nd. with us, we have white house reporter for the "associated press" jonathan lamire, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "kasie dc" on sunday nights, kasie hunt, and nbc news and msnbc contributor shawna thomas. >> let me ask you, jonathan lamire, just outside the room, dr. birx. wasn't there a song in "hamilton" of being in the room where it happened and -- >> oh, my lord. >> and he keeps -- >> yeah. >> -- his doctors out of the room, and he gets up there, and

again, it was pretty remarkable performance. it was like a president who had taken america through 2, 2 1/2 vietnams before saying, you know what, i think we're going to assemble a plan on this vietnam thing. and that wasn't even the biggest news out of the press conference, which we're going to get to in a second! the biggest news out of the press conference was that he seemed to send a signal to an accused child sex trafficker. >> oh, there's that. >> that's where you start talking, jonathan. what a day it was, you said. >> the room where it happened, you're right. also, it should be noted, the title of john bolton's book. >> no, no, no, no, no.

you cannot do that to alexander hamilton. we do not put john bolton and alexander hamilton's name in the same sentence, do we, jonathan? but anyway, go ahead. >> withdrawn. withdrawn. withdrawn. >> okay. thank you, sir. >> yes, the president appeared solo yesterday. dr. birx was, indeed, just outside the room. dr. fauci was a few miles away up in bethesda. the president came out there, and aides had signaled that this would be a little bit different, and i think we saw after the president spoke -- >> oh, man. >> -- there was that rush to proclaim, which we're not going to do here, a rush to proclaim that he had a new tone, because we have seen this before, joe. we have seen that the president, from time to time, can stick to a script, can strike a more somber approach, and then we know that goes away by the next morning's tweets. so, we're not going to talk about there, too. but it certainly did seem, at minimum, at least for a day, the president acknowledged that his previous approach had not been

working. there was less bluster from the podium. there was an acknowledgment that the virus was probably going to get worse before it got better. but yes, at the same time, he made statements about the nation's testing capability. he suggested the virus eventually would just go away. and it did seem, despite some good notes he stroke -- and there were some who said we should set aside our criticisms of him and simply celebrate what he did say. okay. there are some of those things were good. he did encourage people to wear a mask. >> but this has happened repeatedly. he'll have one day -- >> yes. >> one day! one day! out of the past six, seven months, where 140,000 americans have died. again, about 2-2 1/2 times the number of deaths in vietnam? he'll have one day where he'll say, well, maybe with all these people dying, maybe i should read my script, instead of lying about masks, instead of mocking

joe biden about masks, instead of mocking reporters about masks, instead of accusing people of being politically correct, instead of sending his chief of staff to capitol hill to look at reporters wearing masks going, "you sure do look funny in masks," or whatever he said. >> yep. >> again, let's put this into perspective, my friends. over 140,000 people have died. over 140,000 americans have died. and as jonathan lamire has pointed out, once in a while, he reads a script. once in a while, he doesn't say something that makes the lives of senior citizens and diabetics and people with asthma hang in the balance. once in a while, he doesn't say something that encourages americans to abuse store clerks for wearing masks, to abuse people in grocery stores who

take care of you, who work for minimum wage, who put their lives on the line every day because they have families to take care of, and they've got people screaming at them? people abusing them? people getting in their face and screaming! people going to racks with masks and dumping them on the floor because they think that americans have fought and died for over 240 years so they could have the constitutional right to kill senior citizens, to kill diabetics, to kill people with asthma, to kill their family members and to kill others by not wearing masks. mika. >> yeah. >> we do not give a president credit after 142,000 americans

have died, after 2 1/2 vietnam war deaths, saying, maybe we shouldn't have gone into viet m vietnam. you know what, we're going to come up with a plan to get out of vietnam. because this really wasn't vietnam. this is much easier. this was like, do -- and i'm not being sarcastic here -- do what joe biden told you to do at the end of january. let the doctors and let the scientists run this show. and instead, here we are. 142,000 dead, after 2 1/2 vite namz. you don't get credit for that. you don't get credit for letting over 100,000 senior citizens die. you don't get credit for ignoring this virus time and time again. you don't get credit for being,

i don't know, i think probably more wrong than any president in the history of the united states has ever been, with more calamitous results. no credit. sorry. just stop. just go home. you've already killed enough americans. >> well, it's -- >> and by the way -- >> absolutely true, he has. >> by the way, if that sounds extreme, i'd be glad to spend the next three hours just reading your quotes, mr. president. i'd be glad to do that. if anybody, any of your apologists who have been mocking people for wearing masks, while you've said this -- masks are politically correct, oh, you're wearing the mask because you want to be politically correct. he said masks were dirty.

you said wearing masks are double-edged swords. "people touch them and they grab them, and i see it all the time! they come in, they take the mask, now they're holding it now in their fingers, and they drop it on the desk, and then they touch their eye and they touch their nose. no, i think a mask, it's a double-edged sword." no, it's not a double-edged sword. and you know what, your own cdc since the beginning of april, your own surgeon general, who even did videos in the beginning of april, saying, this is how you make a mask at home because there was a shortage of masks. i don't know if you remember that. there was a shortage of masks. doctors, nurses, medical providers didn't have those masks. and so, they were concerned about it. there's a shortage of masks. >> didn't he go to a mask factory and, like -- >> wouldn't wear a mask. >> -- cough all over them or something and they had to throw them away. >> i think that was in maine. jonathan lamire, was that maine,

where he went to a factory and refused to wear a mask, so they had to destroy all of the work that they did when the president was there? >> that's what it was. >> joe, that's exactly right. and i think that you are correct here, as i was saying. whatever the president said yesterday, this is a too little, too late moment for him, that this is something that he should have advocated for months ago, to wear masks, for young people to stay out of bars, for states not to reopen before they were ready, to follow the guidelines of the president's own cdc. he doesn't get credit for sticking to the talking points from the podium for one day. there's no sense here, there's never been an ability for this president to keep up a sustained new approach, to stick to the data, to stick to the somber analysis. and fact that he appeared solo yesterday does undercut the idea that he was going to be deferring to the medical professionals, to the task force, which a lot of republicans want him to do. a lot of senators have said, we'd welcome these briefings to

come back, but, mr. president, we don't want you to be the centerpiece. maybe mike pence could emcee, have your health professionals up there, have them deliver the public health data that the country needs right now as the virus is surging. in i believe about 40 states, cases are increasing, and this administration has not been able to manage this crisis effectively. and what we saw yesterday was the president, again, perhaps for one day, bowing to the idea that his re-election chances right side in grave jeopardy because of the way he's handled this. >> that's all this is about. >> and he is getting pressure from capitol hill, pressure from fellow republicans, that he needs to change his tone before he falls that much further behind joe biden, who right now, he is trailing significantly in nearly every single battleground state that he would need to win in november. that's what yesterday was about. >> interesting. well, yesterday also was about this. the u.s. reported over 1,000

deaths from the coronavirus, the second time the single-day total has exceeded more than 1,000 people this month. according to nbc news data, deaths from arizona, florida, and texas were among the highest on record with each state reporting more than 120 deaths yesterday. nevada also reported its highest single-day toll. as for cases, looking specifically at the hotspot of florida, the florida department of health reported a record-high number of hospitalizations from coronavirus yesterday, adding 518 admissions in just one day. there are nearly 370,000 confirmed cases of covid-19 across the sunshine state with more than 5,300 deaths reported. meanwhile, new data shows the number of people infected with the coronavirus in the u.s. could be vastly underestimated, according to data rerelease by the cdc. the new infection rate could be

anywhere from 2 to 13 times higher than what has been reported. the findings suggest that large numbers of people who did not have symptoms or did not seek medical care may have kept the virus circulating in their communities. the study was based on ten cities and indicated that even new york city, one of the hardest hit areas, is nowhere near achieving herd immunity. experts believe 60% of people in an area would need to have been exposed to the virus to reach that point. and as coronavirus cases continue to surge nationwide, the chief executive of labcorp says that the virus is spreading faster than the company can expand testing capacity, leading to slower turnaround time for test results. meanwhile, quest diagnostics, the largest laboratory company in the country has warned it would be impossible to keep up with demand for covid-19 tests once the fall flu season starts. while yesterday's briefing

was the first in months from the president, remarkably little news came out of it. nearly 4 million cases in this country and nearly 143,000 deaths so far that we know of. the president yesterday said, "we are in the process of developing a strategy." >> my god. what do you say about that? >> we are in the process. >> we are in the process. 143,000 dead. >> we are in the process of developing a strategy, with a pandemic where a strategy could have been in place months ago. basic science that a third grader could understand, and we're in the process. just saying. in reality, the biggest takeaway from the event was something entirely noncoronavirus related. trump was asked about the arrest of ghislaine maxwell. the british socialite criminally charged with procuring underaged girls to be sexually abused by the late investor jeffrey epstein and his friends.

>> ghislaine maxwell is in prison, and so, a lot of people want to know if she's going to turn in powerful people. i know you've talked in the past about prince andrew, and you've criticized bill clinton's behavior. i'm wondering, do you feel that she is going to turn in powerful men? how do you see that working out? >> i don't know. i haven't really been following it too much. i just wish her well, frankly. i've met her numerous times over the years, especially since i lived in palm beach, and i guess they lived in palm beach. but i wish her well, whatever it is. i don't know the situation with prince andrew. just don't know. i'm not aware of it. >> wishes her well. prosecutors say maxwell played a critical role in helping epstein identify, befriend, and groom minor victims for abuse -- girls, young girls, children. she has denied the allegations, and she has pleaded not guilty. you know what, i just want that to sit there for a while. the president at his coronavirus

briefing had no doctors, but he wished ghislaine maxwell well. i mean, i know that there's no proven connection in any way, but we've shown on this show video of donald trump dancing with jeffrey epstein and a bunch of girls dancing around him, and he wishes her well. i'm extremely uncomfortable with what i just heard, and i think everybody should be. and the questions in this case need to be asked and asked and asked until they are answered. and i just think it's very strange that the president would make a comment like that in a case like this. >> well, this is former prosecutors talking about that bizarre comment yesterday, wishing well a woman who was accused of procuring and abusing

herself and having jeffrey epstein abuse young girls for powerfully connected men over years and years' time. it certainly -- it does seem bizarre. and kasie hunt, we've all heard the president send these sort of messages out before to roger stone and to paul manafort and to others, wishing them well, wishing people well. in a context that makes absolutely no sense. and he did this yesterday. this had to be so shocking and jarring to these women who were procured, who were groomed, who were prepared for sexual abuse when they were young girls.

and the president of the united states is wishing the woman who's been accused of this, wishing her well? didn't that strike you as bizarre? >> i think anyone who has read any part of the indictment that was leveled at ghislaine maxwell would be shocked by this. the allegations that she was in the room trying to make these girls more comfortable in these kinds of situations with jeffrey epstein. i mean, everything about this is just -- i mean, set aside paul manafort, roger stone. you're absolutely right, the president sends those kinds of messages to those people, and we should judge that accordingly. but i mean, we are talking about despicable crimes with, you know, victims who faced years of trauma and damage because of these actions. and you know, for the president to -- i mean, he clearly has

familiarity with the situation. he takes the question, seems to engage with it like he's the person that's in those photographs that we were just showing, you know, from years ago in new york or palm beach or wherever they were taken, and he just sort of throws prince andrew in there on top of it. not even a name that was previously mentioned. does he want to be part of that situation? i mean, i have so many questions. and i think to your point, joe, for the victims of this, it had to be really, really hard to watch. >> well, and kasie, you raise an incredible point here, because i let it sit a little bit after we played that because we have got to stop allowing this shock to wash away on every norm that this president breaks, whether it's shaking down a foreign government for dirt on a political rival or wishing an

accused sex offender whose longtime boyfriend died in jail with thousands of secrets, with enough known about this case to know that there's something there. there's no way that comment can be normalized. it was not okay. and time and time again, he breaks through the stop signs that this country put up to create a democracy, to create a society where people are safe and free and trying to get to a place where people are treated equally, and he's pulling us back in time. he's pulling us toward the dark side. and yes, this is my opinion speaking here, but i fear that we allow the shock to wear off every time, and we don't stop and think and do, joe. >> yeah. and shawna, it's a great point. you know, we all, all of us, the

incoming is virtigenous. and sometimes, we forget. it's funny that we -- not funny -- it's ironic that mika said that, because yesterday we had anne applebaum on, and she brought up ukraine, which, of course, oh, that was so january, or that was so last year. but she said something that struck me. and i actually wrote it down. donald trump abused the tools of foreign policy to blackmail a foreign leader into launching a baseless investigation into his political rival. i wrote it down because i had to remind myself of that. like, we let donald trump saying that, donald trump making racist comments time and time again, donald trump mocking people who wear masks -- >> russia. >> donald trump. yeah, russia. again, i actually let slip my mind this morning that donald

trump knows that vladimir putin put bounty on the heads of american troops, and still, a month later hasn't condemned him. and yesterday, we see donald trump actually wishing well a woman accused of leading a child sex ring, and that's not the headlines in all the newspapers today. >> and, by the way, we impeached the president in the last year. >> right. >> to add on that. exactly. but i think one of the things, if you look at this politically, and you know, kasie summed up how depraved the indictment against ghislaine maxwell is, but politically, this at that particular press conference, knowing that there would be some people in some outlets who would somewhat praise the president for, as politico put it, being uncharacteristically realistic. knowing that, he walked into that question about ghislaine

maxwell, and there is a very easy political answer to that, and the answer that most presidents, i think, would have given, while also nodding towards all of the victims that are out there, is, there is an open federal case against this person. i cannot comment on that. and move on. we wouldn't be talking about this if he just adhered to some really, really basic political rules. but i think we also want to come back to how jonathan lamire started. let's not pretend that yesterday's press conference is necessarily going to be how this president is going to act going forward. let's not pretend that that's how he's going to tweet. let's look at the entire body of evidence. and what we didn't get out of that press conference, even if he did follow a script, a script that had some untruths in it, is we didn't get any kind of plan, not a small plan for the

economy, not any direction for how congress, or at least the republicans, should try to approach the democrats to try to deal with our economic and unemployment issues in this country. we didn't even get a small plan for how we are going to increase testing, which would then allow us to possibly open our economy and open our schools. and i think there was a question in there about the rapid tests that the white house reporters get when they come to the white house. and the president did say, you know, i like those tests. those tests help us. okay, so, let's even just on a really simple basis talk about how do we get those rapid tests in more places in the country, in businesses, so people can actually, maybe possibly go back to work somewhat safely. there was no plan there. and just because he can stand at a podium and he can, you know, for 35 minutes, i believe, at least talk in a way that doesn't scare the entire country, that

doesn't mean that we are moving forward or doing anything to actually help people get back to work, get their kids back in school. and so, i judge this by looking for something that resembles a plan. >> right. and you know, jonathan lamire, i think the two screaming headlines from yesterday have to be, unless you were just -- not you -- unless people are just reckless, gullible reporters -- there are two headlines, only two headlines that came out of yesterday's press conference. one -- that after 142,000 americans have died of a pandemic that the president has downplayed for half a year, he says they're developing a plan. >> mm-hmm. >> and two, the same donald trump who said the justice department is my justice department -- i'm in control of it. all right.

if that's the case, then donald trump wishes well a woman who is accused by his own justice department of leading a child sex ring. he wishes a woman -- >> known her a long time. >> -- that his own justice department has accused of leading a child sex ring for years. he wishes her well. what's going on? >> to pick up on shawna's smart point there, any politician would enter that briefing room knowing you do not under any circumstance need to wish ghislaine maxwell well. you do not do that. there's another way to answer that question. you move on. but let's also remember that this is, of course -- she's the longtime associate of jeffrey epstein, who's credibly accused

of these despicable crimes with underaged women. the president has always sort of never really sided with the victims in these cases. his reflexive response is to sort of defend the powerful men accused of abusing women in the me too movement and so on, which of course stems from the allegations against himself, of which there are many. so, this is in part a -- this could be a part of a larger pattern of his responses. but as you say, also, we know that he has sent signals before to associates of his who have been charged of crimes. we know that he just commuted roger stone's sentence just a few weeks ago, another matter in which another norm and convention that was sort of cast aside. it's easy to lose track of them, there are so many. that was just a few weeks ago when he did that, over the objections of a number of republicans. and as far as the virus, of course, there still remains no real strategy to improve testing, to help schools. there are negotiations on the hill right now that are contentious and have a long way

to go before americans receive relief that they need. the president wants the economy to get going for his re-election chances, but the steps he has taken have only hurt himself in that effort to this point. >> yeah, you know, mika -- again, you know, everybody has their own news show to run, all right? >> but don't fall under the spell and don't stop being shocked when something really bad happens in front of your face. >> people are really great at what they're doing, but there were only two headlines out of yesterday's news conference. and if anybody actually says otherwise, then they're going down rabbit trails, and they really -- i don't know that they actually are smart enough to run a newscast. and here are the two headlines that came out yesterday. one -- after 142,000 americans have died of a pandemic, the president says he's putting

together a plan. and two -- >> in the process. >> the president of the united states said he wished well a woman that his own justice department has accused of running a child sex ring. oh, and by the way, if you have the little teaser at the end, you know, the squirrel water skiing or -- >> don't do that. don't do the closer. >> don't do the water skiing tonight at the end of tonight's newscast. why don't you talk to the family of somebody who got killed in afghanistan after vladimir putin put bounties on the head of brave u.s. troops. and by the way, the commander in chief -- i don't know, maybe this can be the little hook at the end of the show? >> mm, the kicker. >> a month later, the kicker, that's what you guys call it, the kicker, at the end of the show? the president still has not condemned vladimir putin. and that's the way it is. >> there you go.

we have so much more to get to this morning, including the new reporting that president trump tried to get the british open moved to his own golf resort. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> we are in the process of developing a strategy that's going to be very, very powerful. we've developed as we go along. i'm a performer. -always have been. -and always will be. never letting anything get in my way. not the doubts, distractions, or voice in my head. and certainly not arthritis. new voltaren provides powerful arthritis pain relief to help me keep moving. and it can help you too. feel the joy of movement with voltaren.

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others see cracked concrete, instrundown courts.ere. i see a way to bring pride back to communities. that's why i made project backboard and a site with godaddy. how will you make your mark? make the world you want. following a developing story happening right now in houston, where china says the u.s. has ordered it to close down its houston consulate in 72 hours, calling it an unprecedented escalation. according to local reports, witnesses told police that paper was being burned in trash cans at the chinese consulate last night.

the state department released a statement today, saying in part, "we have directed the closure of prc consulate general in houston in order to protect american intellectual property and americans' private information." joining us now from beijing, nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer. janis, what more can you tell us? >> reporter: well, it's been a wild morning that started with these reports of smoke and flames at the consulate general of china in houston. it has now spiraled to this statement from the state department about an hour ago, confirming that they have ordered china to close down the mission within 72 hours. china is calling this outrageous. they call it unjustified. foreign ministry spokesperson accusing the u.s. of intimidating, of interfering in china's affairs, even accusing the u.s. of confiscating diplomatic pouches on two

occasions back in october and in june. what this is is a very sharp and rapid deterioration of what was already a combative relationship on pretty much every front, from huawei to the south china sea. it has really gone downhill over hong kong, with the decisions last week by the u.s. to consider hong kong and mainland china to be effectively the same, and now discussion of suspending the extradition treaty. so, why the consulate in houston? i mean, it handles the affairs and has jurisdiction over much of the south and the southeast, but it is hugely symbolic because this was the first consulate to open in the united states when the u.s. and china first established diplomatic relations back in 1979. it's when dung shao ping visited and wore the ten-gallon hat.

and media has been going nuts. media conducted a poll asking people in china, what is the u.s. consulate that should be closed as retribution? and so far, the overwhelming choice is the u.s. consulate in hong kong. >> so, janis, we -- the united states -- we credibly accused china of stealing american intellectual property for decades now. i certainly remember heated votes throughout the 1990s on extending mfn to china. and those of us who didn't want to extend it, one of the reasons why is because just the blatant theft of u.s. intellectual property rights. that has continued unabated for decades. so, the question is, what was the triggering event for this action in houston? any information or any idea why, suddenly, we would close a consulate? >> reporter: if you had asked me

two weeks ago, i probably would have said that chinese officials liken it all to the sort of tit for tat china bashing that they say they've become accustomed to in the pre-election season, that it's the trump administration and senior officials using hard-hitting speeches to try to smear china, to try to distract from the coronavirus pandemic as a means of bolstering an election position. but these are very significant turns of events that have happened over the past ten days or so. what was different about that indictment that was unveiled yesterday was this distinction by the fbi and justice officials that they see this as a blended threat, that these were not two hackers who were arrested simply because they were trying to enrich themselves, but that they were working in partnership and in concert with the chinese government. and with that, the u.s. has put china in the same group of

countries as north korea, russia, and iran. the fbi even going so far as to say that china's government was acting, quote, like an organized criminal syndicate. so, we are seeing more than just a sharpening of rhetoric here, and this decision to close the consulate, again, is a hugely symbolic one, but it will be one that will get some sort of retaliation. again, there is the expectation that it could be the u.s. consulate in hong kong, but there is also some discussion that it could also be the consulate in wuhan. >> wow. nbc's janis mackey frayer, thank you very, very much for your reporting this morning. we're going to move now to the coronavirus. joining us now, political assistant professor at the nyu grossman school of medicine's department of population health, dr. libby roy. she's an msnbc news medical contributor. and dr. roy, the two big stories we're following this morning, of course, the president giving a hat tip to an accused sex

offender, and the second is the fact that he keeps saying we're in the process of finding a plan to deal with the coronavirus. and in our reporting this morning, we talked about testing. and testing not being able to keep up with the demand, and now the response time of testing becoming slower. are things still getting worse? >> good morning, mika. well, let me start with some good news. at the press briefing, at the white house briefing yesterday, the president was actually finally rather pro mask and pro physical distancing. but i've got to tell you, the cynical part of my brain said, well, it's kind of a day late and a dollar short. that type of strong pro public health messaging, if that had come six weeks ago, would have been so much more impactful six weeks or, or in more solemn terms, 50,000 deaths ago. however, the more optimistic side of my brain says, hey, look, if the public, if 80% to 90% of the public actually then

heeded the president's message and the message that all public health and medical people have been saying now for months, you know, wearing the -- covering your face -- i don't leave my apartment, my home without wearing a mask -- if they did the mask and if they did the physical distancing, the number of cases, infections, hospitalizations, deaths, would drop drastically. we've seen this happen in other countries and here in the united states in states like new york, new jersey. and back in april-may, when new york/new jersey went through this hellish period, we didn't have the data to support that the mask protection. and remember, we had a national shortage of ppe. so, you know, i'm optimistic in some ways, but i'm also extremely frustrated at the lack of a national plan -- national testing, contact tracing. there's no plan in terms of real detailed plan for school reopenings. there's a lot of things that need to be done, mika.

>> yeah. a lot of people were hoping to hear from the president and his top scientists yesterday about school, about school reopening and about their lives and about the fact that their lives are in danger and that there should be steps in place to actually make things better. and so far, it appears this president -- my words, not yours -- is making things worse. i want to bring in shawna thomas for the next question. shawna? >> good morning. so, some of the information that the cdc released pointed to the fact that we are nowhere near achieving herd immunity. and i think people hear herd immunity and don't totally understand it. so, my question is, one, just what does it mean that we're nowhere near achieving herd immunity? and do we know enough about the antibodies to know whether herd immunity matters? >> yeah, shawna, that's a really important question to ask. so, you know, unlike a hot of other viral infections where once a person has the infection,

we develop antibodies that then protect us. and if you have enough people who have protection, you actually are able to protect the other people in the community. we are not seeing that with the coronavirus. again, we are learning something new every day. our hope was that if enough people got the infection, that everyone else would be protected, we'd have enough natural antibodies built up. but look, sweden already did this experiment, and they did not really develop herd immunity. so, i think the key message right now is the only way to fight this virus is by preventing you from getting it. and right now, again, the masks and the physical distancing, these public health measures, these preventive health measures are really all that we have to prevent us from getting the infection. >> all right. dr. lipi roy, thank you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead, the president continues his threat

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all right, there's a lot going on capitol hill. kasie hunt is still with us for that. and joining us is senior writer at politico and co-author of "the playbook," jake sherman. he's an msnbc political contributor. so, for you both, but kasie, i'll start with you. we've got to talk about ron johnson being used by russia, liz cheney not being backed by her own party when she talks about dr. fauci. but let's talk about the administration and whether they're actually in sync with their party when it comes to a coronavirus plan. >> yeah, we talked about one of the two headlines out of the news conference being that after months and months, the president is out there saying that he has a plan. but the reality on capitol hill is completely different. and whatever plan he does have

seems to be totally out of sync with his party on the hill. they had lunch yesterday with top administration officials, steve mnuchin and mark meadows. and if anything, they came out of that in more disarray than before. ted cruz stood up in the meeting and said, "what the hell are we doing?" there are fiscal hawks who think they're spending too much. there are others who think if they don't spend more, they potentially are risking losing the senate in the fall because so much has to be done on this bill. the president is out there insisting that we do a payroll tax cut. that, of course, helps people who are still getting a paycheck. that's how a payroll tax cut works. those are not the people that are most hard hit by the coronavirus crisis. and republicans think it costs too much money anyway. and all of this is before they even start to talk to democrats about this, which is going to be an even tougher set of negotiations. they want those across the

capitol to sit down with schumer and pelosi, but they came out saying we're waiting for the senate republican plan. we can't come out until we hear from them. so it's really all over the map here, mika. >> jake, what are you hearing? >> go ahead. >> kasie is 100% correct. they will be in negotiations for weeks on end, probably bleeding into mid-august. there is a chance, i would put it as a non-zero chance, of no bill emerging at all, because republicans are split, democrats are split, and i just, i would note here that this is -- we're talking about a republican party that's just spent $3 trillion or $4 trillion, and some people in the party are not eager to spend any more. the president -- i mean, it's astounding to me how little power donald trump has on capitol hill. it's remarkable, because he's pushing for a policy that will never become law, and he's doing so forcefully with his top aides on capitol hill who are being forced to run this errand for him for reasons that are not clear for anybody.

it's a vanity project, the payroll tax cut, and it has everybody tied in knots. >> so, kasie hunt, then take it to this level. what's going on with liz cheney, who's been outspoken, sometimes out of step with her party, but at least in line with science, which could lead to lives being saved in each of these politicians' districts and states? >> well, liz cheney has been out there publicly defending dr. fauci, saying that she thinks that the nation needs his expertise. and at the first meeting of house republicans in four months -- they've been meeting virtually due to the coronavirus -- a group of men in the freedom caucus, mostly, but also conservative matt gaetz, not technically a member of the freedom caucus, all stood up and attacked her. she is the highest ranking republican woman in the house. she is thought of as a potential future minority leader, if not eventually speaker of the house. that was the job that her dad

wanted before he became defense secretary. and she stood up back to them, you know, and she pushed back on what they had to say to her. there were some issues about primary challengers as well. she told that member that that member's issue was with president trump and not with her. and you know, i think it's pretty clear, she is making a bet on the future of the republican party and what it's going to look like, if, in fact, this election goes as all these polls suggest. and she was careful in public to say, okay, i think joe biden getting elected would be a bad thing. she was careful to align herself with the republican presidency. but she is clearly staking out ground that's different from all of these trump loyalists in the house. so, that fight i think is going to continue. and i think her path is going to be a fascinating one to watch in the future. >> absolutely. >> well, and that's a phrase. >> that's it. >> and i'm so glad you called them trump loyalists, because conservative doesn't fit if

you're attacking liz cheney and suggesting she's not conservative. because actually, her positions on russia, her positions on germany, her position on foreign policy is more in line with what traditional conservatives have believed through the decades. and in fact, jake, what was so hilarious about these men attacking liz cheney for being insufficiently loyal to donald trump -- these trumpists -- is the fact that if you look at her voting percentage of going along with donald trump's agenda, she's far more loyal. i think it's like 98%. you just look at the voting record. she's far more loyal in following donald trump's agenda than any of the men who attacked her yesterday. >> it's absolutely right. it's 97%, so you're very close,

but you're absolutely right. far more conservative and aligned with the president than anybody else. a few things to note. the freedom caucus here, which is driving this, is searching for relevancy, because joe, as you knew because you were part of a group like this when you were in the house, your only currency as a member of the house of representatives is the ability to block or pass something. and when you're completely, 100% aligned with the president, in the minority, it doesn't really make a difference what you say, and these people have lost kind of the soul of the freedom caucus. jim jordan and mark meadows, who are both in different positions and much more aligned with the top of their party. and matt gaetz, we have a story that ran this morning, joe, he represents your former district. we have a two-month investigation, myself and john bresnahan, about severe misspending in his office. so, he's probably -- he sticks his head up and becomes very prominent frequently, but matt gaetz has his own issues and

just got out of an ethics investigation. and i imagine we will be getting into perhaps another ethics investigation in the coming days. >> mika, it's interesting. the freedom caucus. i don't know what to say about them. and i haven't known what to say about them for years because i spoke to members of the freedom caucus years ago, and i said, listen, your currency is being small-government conservative. >> yeah. >> i spoke to the leaders of the freedom caucus years ago. and i said, keep your focus on balanced budgets, keep your focus on reducing the federal debt, keep your focus on entitlement reform. and i know. i know that angers a lot of people who are watching this show. and i'm sorry that angers you, but that's why i went to congress, was to balance the budget. we did it four years in a row. and we did it four years in a row because a group that i was

in raised hell every day, not about side issues, not about defending republican leaders -- about protecting taxpayer dollars. and even before the coronavirus, mika, our federal debt exploded at record levels, our national debt exploded at record levels, and the freedom caucus -- >> where were they? >> -- stayed focused on stupid investigations, on defending donald trump on everything but balancing the budget. and this is why republicans have no credibility. i don't -- what is the purpose of the republican party anymore? because at least when we were there, the one thing that brought all republicans together was the belief that we had to be respectful of taxpayer dollars, that even if we couldn't achieve it, we had to move towards balancing the budget, even if that was just an aspirational goal. and guess what? we balanced the budget for the first time in a generation.

we balanced the budget four years in a row for the first time since the 1920s. it's 100 years ago. four times in a row! what's a freedom caucus? they're not about small government. they can say they are. but look what happened over the past four, five years, and look what they've done since donald trump became president. absolutely nothing. so, what's -- what's the purpose of them? so, jake's right, they've got to look for relevancy, because they sure as hell aren't fighting for small government. they don't talk about it. they talk about defending donald trump, who, by the way, is not a small-government conservative, has never claimed to be a small-government conservative, has never claimed to be a loyal republican, has never claimed to be all the things that liz cheney has been her entire life.

and listen, i've got a lot of issues with liz cheney. liz cheney has a lot of issues with me. i'm talking about on policy. i'm talking not personally. i'm talking about policy. i respect her and her family for public service. and if that offends you, sorry, we disagree. but i respect her personally. but i have a lot of differences in certain issues during the trump era, including impeachment. but mika, at least she knows ideologically who she is, which is more than i can say for anybody in the freedom caucus. >> let's bring in nbc news correspondent -- >> if you don't believe me, just look at the federal debt, look at federal deficits since republicans have been in charge of washington, d.c. and look from 2001 to 2009 and look what it's been over the past 3 1/2 years. >> i understand your frustration. let's bring in nbc news

correspondent heidi prsbella. her latest report is on joe biden, blasting republican senator ron johnson's probe into his ties to a ukrainian gas company, saying the senator is promoting a hard-core, right-wing conspiracy theory. here bego again. heidi, what's going on? >> pretty harsh words in this memo obtained by nbc. they say that johnson is refusing to basically say whether he's party to a foreign influence operation against the u.s. and that secondly, he's diverting critical resources from his coronavirus oversight, which is one of the goals, one of the oversight responsibilities of that committee to this hyperpartisan investigation. here's the most important thing, guys, in reporting this out. the committee -- johnson's committee, is refusing to tell us or any other news organization, for that matter, whether they're accepting materials on the biden family

from foreign sources. there are reports of pro-kremlin ukrainians confirming that they have passed materials to johnson's committee, including tapes that are reportedly highly edited tapes between former vice president joe biden and the former ukrainian president poroshenko. we asked them. they said, "we're not taking uppo," which could be defined in many ways, but they wouldn't say whether they're taking materials, period. so, this coincides with a letter that democrats sent up to the fbi yesterday, saying that they need an urgent briefing from christopher wray about whether there are attempts to influence congress. and politico reported that as an attachment to that, they specifically singled out ron johnson's committee as being a problem. so, they're demanding an urgent briefing before the august recess. and you know, it's no surprise here that just before the

election, we're seeing joe biden's political nemesis try and revive this investigation, which was really at the heart of president trump's impeachment, mika. >> here we go. heidi, thank you very much for your reporting. >> how fascinating, mika, the background of this. here we have in 2016, esvi date said a couple of days ago that donald trump used information hacked from russia every single day in the last month of the campaign. he's never denied doing it. his campaign never denied him doing it. his administration never denied that he was doing it. and here we are, kasie hunt, four years later, and you have the chairman of a senate committee now reportedly using information that russian operatives have passed along to

him in his committee! what can you tell us? >> well, joe, i can say that there are other republicans on this committee that even are uncomfortable with how this has gone. mitt romney among them. there have been a lot of questions along the way, as ron johnson has tried to proceed with this investigation, moments where we thought that romney or someone else on the committee might stand in the way of letting him go forward. now, ultimately, johnson has gotten his way on this, but i think the fact that there is even some reluctance among -- you know, romney's broken with the president, but there are some others on the committee as well pushing back in this way, and i think it shows you that there are real concerns about what is going on here. i mean, this is not simply a straightforward, partisan food fight. there is real worry that the way in which this is being conducted

is not necessarily above board. and i think it's all for the reasons that you just laid out. i mean, we went through the impeachment process. there was real questions about the president's conduct, even, you know, some of the republicans who voted to acquit, like lamar alexander, won't even go -- wouldn't even go so far as to say, oh, i'm not worried about the president's conduct, i just didn't think it was impeachable conduct. and i don't think that there is a great desire to revisit this ahead of the election, except by some of these really pro-trump corners of the gop. >> well, and of course, mika, there was also back during impeachment, you actually had fiona hill bring up the point -- and she was right -- that republican senators were actually using russian propaganda and passing along russian propaganda that they were warned against using by the intelligence communities.

said, don't say the crowdstrike was a ukrainian operation, because that's russian propaganda. and even after the warning, republican senators still used that russian propaganda. they pushed along an ex-kgb agent, vladimir putin. they pushed along the propaganda that his government wanted pushed out, that the gru wanted pushed out. that people who consider the united states its enemy wanted pushed out. so, now we have still the republican party in 20 20 still reportedly following the wishes of vladimir putin and russia? i just -- i've got to say, who's talking, mika, about how we forget all of the things that happened? >> that's right. >> i think one of the most remarkable things that i have seen by the trump media has been

the expression picked up by respected newspapers, "the russia hoax." oh, my god! what history will do. >> yeah. >> what history will say. about those who follow donald trump's propaganda and, "the russian hoax." three hours would not be enough time to talk about what donald trump and his campaign did during the 2016 election, that they lied about subsequently, and their interactions with russia, what he did in the early months of his campaign with the russian foreign minister and russia's ambassador to the united nations inside the oval office, the intel that they passed along. i mean, i'm not even going to get into it, because i don't have enough time. but here you have the republican party, which, by the way, if you look at polls going back to 2016-2017, republicans went from

being very skeptical of vladimir putin to actually being more supportive of vladimir putin. look at the polls. it really is remarkable. you talk about the trump personality call. just look at how republicans have reacted towards russia. look at how republicans have reacted towards vladimir putin over the past four years. and look more specifically as you go to vote this year, look what the republican senate has done time and time again. >> there you go. >> and look at what ron johnson is doing right now. look what the senators did after being warned not to pass along russian propaganda last fall. look at it! it's there. if you can read all of that and say it's a hoax, good luck, number one. and number two, please, for the sake of yourself and your hands, stay away from household

appliances, especially blenders. >> joe, all you can do is to keep saying it, because for some reason, there's a mental block, and it's costing our country. i appreciate it. i want to get to jake sherman real quick. every morning you bring us the politico "morning consult" poll. what are you seeing today? >> yeah, this is perhaps a nice cota to that conversation. the democrats enjoy at the moment a ten-point generic ballot advantage over republicans. and joe biden has pulled basically equal, plus or minus one point, with donald trump on economy and jobs, which, frankly, is illustrative of perhaps the congress' focus on some peripheral issues and donald trump's focus on peripheral issues like, you know, congratulating ghislaine maxwell and things like that. and one more important note, as donald trump is beginning to hold coronavirus briefings again. he might be swayed by polls, since more than half of all voters that we polled think mask

mandates and masks in public are an important and acceptable thing, including, by the way, 58% of republicans. so again, helps kind of bring alive some of those policy decisions that donald trump is making and some of the tangents that he goes off on. >> all right. jake sherman, thank you very, very much. and during a speech in delaware yesterday, former vice president joe biden called president trump's disregard in leading the fight against the pandemic quitting on the country. >> it's been reported by the president's staff that the president is, quote, not really working this anymore. he doesn't want to be distracted by it. doesn't want to be distracted by it. his own staff admits that donald trump fails the most important test of being an american president, the duty to care for you, for all of us. for all his bluster about his

expertise on the economy, he's unable to explain how he'll actually help working families hit the hardest. you know, he's quit on you, and he's quit on this country. but this election is not just about him. it's about us. it's about you. it's about what we will do, what a president's supposed to do. president's supposed to care, to lead, to take responsibility, to never give up. >> mm. that theme of taking responsibility is part of a wide-ranging discussion that joe biden recently had with former president barack obama. in what the biden campaign is calling a socially distant conversation about our nation's future, biden and obama contrast how their administration confronted national crises with the trump administration's current efforts. the two also discussed how this

country is grappling with systemic racism. the full conversation will be released tomorrow, but here now is an exclusive first look, only on "morning joe." >> can you imagine standing up when you're a president, saying, "it's not my responsibility"? "i take no responsibility"? i mean, literally. >> those words didn't come out of our mouths while we were in office. >> no. no. i don't understand his inability to get a sense of what people are going through. he just can't -- he can't relate in any way. >> well, and one of the things that i have always known about you, joe, it's the reason why i wanted you to be my vice president and the reason why you were so effective. it all starts with being able to relate. if you can sit down with a family and see your own family in them and the struggles that you've gone through or your parents went through or your kids are going through, if you

can connect those struggles to somebody else's struggles, then you're going to work hard for them. and that's always what's motivated you to get into public service. >> wow. all right. let's bring into the conversation former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. political reporter for the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst robert costa. he's the moderator of "washington week" on pbs. editor at large for the non-profit newsroom, the 19th, errin haines is with us. and professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson joins us along with jonathan lamire and shawna thomas, still with us as well. >> so, claire mccaskill, i really want to start with you, because i know a lot of people took the bait yesterday.

but i'm sure as a prosecutor, an extremely effective prosecutor in kansas city, i'm sure you had no words for the president of the united states' decision to wish well the head, the alleged head of a child sex ring. and of course, we have to say alleged, because in this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. but it was donald trump's own justice department that credibly accused ms. maxwell of running a horrific child sex ring for years! and donald trump, the president of the united states, wished this woman well. your response? >> well, i was very frustrated when there were some media outlets saying how the president had a change in tone yesterday.

no, he didn't no, he didn't. we had 1,000 deaths yesterday. we've lost 140,000 americans. and he managed to express sympathy for two people in that 5:00 press appearance, two people. one, an accused sexual predator of young girls, and the other, the governor of florida, whose own mismanagement has caused countless deaths. so, the notion that anybody thinks this guy has changed his tone -- that's why the contrast between obama and biden and them talking about empathy and what an important ingredient it is. prosecutors across the country, jaws dropped when he said, "i wish her well." what is that? i don't -- i mean, i have no words. >> you know, it was a strong moment in the clip that we just

showed of joe biden talking about walter isaacson, the duty to care. and it certainly follows so many americans make their decision on being president of the united states and who's going to be president of the united states, by who they believe can relate better to people like them. joe biden, of course, well ahead of donald trump with that, quote, duty to care. but i'm just curious, as somebody that followed and reported on the vietnam war, somebody that saw that tragedy unfolding over a decade, really two decades -- 57,000 americans dead. i'm just wondering what your reaction was to a president who said, hey, you know what, we're going to start developing a p n plan, a really good plan for this pandemic, after we have suffered, americans have suffered through the equivalent of 2 1/2 vietnams, 142,000 deaths, and added to it, the

worst economic calamity since the great depression. what was your reaction to the president of the united states, after 2 1/2 vietnams, saying, we're developing a plan? >> there two things a president has to do, and we saw barack obama and joe biden talk about it. one is take responsibility. number two is care about people like you and me. as you know, joe, that's the most important question americans ask, is this person somebody who cares about people like me? what you have now is a president who's not showing caring for anybody with a possible exception of ghislaine maxwell or ron desantis, and not taking responsible. you said earlier in the show, you're talking about him following putin and following russia. i am stunned that we're not talking every day about the intelligence that says that vladimir putin and russia put a bounty on u.s. soldiers, and the

president of the united states didn't even read the briefing. and now when he's been told about it, has done nothing about it. this shows somebody's not taking responsibility and not caring about ordinary folks, including our soldiers. >> bob costa, can you put into perspective what we saw yesterday in the briefing, what the president is reacting to, what he is responding to, based on your reporting? >> in short, joe, he's responding to his poll number. this is a president who no longer can hold rallies like he wants to, who is craving the attention of his core supporters, wants to be out on the campaign trail, sees himself falling further and further behind joe biden, the former vice president. and this is a restless president, based on all of my conversations with republicans who interact with him daily. he's disengaged from the ongoing congressional talks about the stimulus that's going to be led by secretary mnuchin and speaker

pelosi and the new chief of staff, mark meadows, at the white house. and this is a president who's trying to go back to issues of race, of culture, of weighing in on different news items, whether it's the epstein case or anything else, as the country suffers through a pandemic. and there's no one in this white house, jared kushner, meadows, the members of the cabinet, who have the ability to corral him in a different way. and to the senator's point, her point is accepted privately by many people inside the republican party, that this is not some kind of new tone. this is the same president trump and a president trump who's going back to his 2016 instincts again and again. >> the same donald trump. we'll see in the coming hours, the coming days, how true that is. i think it's interesting, errin, that we've been hearing all

morning reports from bob and from kasie and from jake and others, that the president's losing support, even among republicans on capitol hill, that he's not going to get his legislative wish list through. so, he's doing things like sending troops, federal troops, police, whatever you want to call them, law enforcement officers, to portland, and now threatening to do the same to other u.s. cities. is this something that we need to worry about in the coming months as we get closer to an election, with the president who becomes legislatively, at least, more and more impotent? >> absolutely, joe. because i think that the concern here for a lot of city leaders and places -- you heard mayor lori lightfoot earlier this week out of chicago saying how concerned she was. mayor keisha lance bottoms also

saying she would be concerned about a similar type of presence, if that were something that were deployed in atlanta. you know, it's just as bob said. the 2016 playbook, racial playbook, is back in full effect. and you know, you heard the president, then-candidate trump then talking about, you know, restoring law and order to cities, many of them with large african-american populations. and this is exactly what many voters' interpretation of that law and order message was, having, you know, a militarized law enforcement presence on the ground in american cities, you know, and being deployed against american citizens. i think that that is alarming not only for african-americans but also just for americans in general that have concerns over civil liberties. and i think that those concerns are a lot of what you see in terms of folks taking to the streets in portland to kind of

push back against that militarized presence. but you know, it's a very concerning signal, i think, too, for folks who, you know, heard from this president when he was inaugurated saying, i will be your champion, you know. they're not really necessarily feeling like that in the message that they heard from the president in his press conference yesterday, where he, you know, was up there alone, you know, also reminiscent of his inauguration speech, saying, i alone can fix it, right? >> right. >> we don't have a vaccine to protect folks from the public health crisis. and now a lot of folks are really concerned about the safety net possibly eroding and them not feeling protected from an economic perspective as well. >> you know, jonathan lamire, errin brings up this militarized force in portland. of course, the president in a recent poll even losing, i believe, by nine points to joe

biden on the issue of law and order, of public safety, policing. and yet, even after the june 1st debacle in lafayette square, he's continuing to go back to this playbook in portland and threatening to do it in other cities. and while he's doing it, republicans politically are horrified by what that's doing to their party, to what that's doing to their senate candidates, to what that's doing to their house candidates, among suburban voters who have been bailing out the republican party since donald trump became president. >> and that poll, joe, was received with alarm among republicans and some even in the trump orbit, the inner circle, because this is an issue they continue to lean in on, the idea of law and order. it is part of their new pitch towards the suburbs. we've seen them tease in recent days, there will be a series of executive actions, including on

housing and other matters that they feel will help them win back some of those suburban voters they have lost, when a lot of strategists feel like it will do exactly the opposite, that it is misjudging the character of the suburbs, that some of these policies seem very race-based and will only hurt republicans further. and on this point and to underscore our conversation at the top of the show, joe, about the president's tone and the fact that he shouldn't be getting credit for this. the white house schedule reveals a bit of a sneak preview as to what we'll hear from the president today. there is no coronavirus task force briefing on the schedule, but instead, there's this. he's going to speak from the white house, delivering remarks on "operation legend: combating violent crime in american cities." and we're going to expect to hear more about portland, about the effort to send potentially federal troops to chicago. he has been -- he's ratcheted up very dark rhetoric in recent days about the rising crime in certain big american cities and how it needs to be stamped out

with perhaps even washington getting involved. he's blasting democratic mayors, again, using tones verging on very racially based descriptions of how the crime is taking place in these cities. this is an issue that they, the white house, feels like will work with their hard-core supporters and conservative voters, even though most polling suggests otherwise. but this is the play. and i would strongly suggest and suspect that the president's, quote, more presidential tone, won't last when he goes talking about conditions in these big american cities later today. >> yeah. i would also argue that sometimes when you analyze his moves and the words he uses and the decisions he makes, that we don't look at it as a play for votes, per se. it might be. it also might be a play to just not leave. and it's something that a lot of

people who know more about the rise of authoritarianism and things like it or looking at in terms of this presidency. we want to give more details to the story we've been talking about, especially given his announcement or events that he has announced for today. the department of homeland security officials are considering deploying mobile field forces to protect federal property in cities around the country that experience unrest. two people familiar with discussions tell this to politico. the move comes as the justice department is planning to expand "operation legend," a law enforcement initiative launched by attorney general bill barr earlier this month to fight the sudden surge of violent crime in kansas city, missouri. according to the report, the department of justice plans to announce this week that the operation will expand into more cities. president trump is expected to

deliver remarks on "operation legend" later today at a news conference. and former secretary for the department of homeland security and former republican governor of pennsylvania tom ridge condemned the trump administration's decision to send federal officers to portland, saying it was counterproductive and that it was not the agency's mission to act as domestic law enforcement. he added, quote, it would be a cold day in hell before i would consent to an uninvited, unilateral intervention into one of my cities. in just a moment, we're going to have new york city mayor bill de blasio to react on this. but first, shawna thomas, your thoughts. >> well, one, i am sort of struck by the tone of trump's ads recent ly trying to scare

people in the suburbs, versus the beginning of the ad you showed with barack obama and joe biden, and this idea that family and trying to help the family, versus trying to scare families, though that is a tried and true political tactic. but i think it's worth noting that there is a really big contrast in the kind of videos and ads we're going to see as this campaign plays out. but i actually had a question for joe. as someone who i think is still conservative or believes in some conservative policies, how do you react when you see the federal government going into cities, states, localities? small-government conservatism isn't necessarily a bad thing. there are arguments between democrats and republicans about the benefits and the negatives of that. but i'm always struck that i'm not hearing conservatives say anything about this idea of sending federal forces into local states and cities. >> yeah, you know, i've heard rand paul. i think he's the only one that i've seen. i'm hoping more republicans have said something about it.

but this is the antithesis of everything we conservatives have been fighting for -- small-government conservatives, let me say, because there certainly has always been an authoritarian streak in the republican party -- but at least small-government conservatives have been arguing against this type of force. i guess, walter, i need to go to you on this, because you'll remember this. but when i was running for office in 1994, so many people who called themselves conservatives were as disturbed. i mean, i talked a lot about deficits and debt and saving entitlement programs, but were as disturbed about what happened at waco and ruby ridge and what happened with the escalation of

the atf and what happened with the escalation of federal troops and federal forces. and certainly, you heard that same theme when barack obama was president. it under -- i mean, it was the foundational argument of the tea party, that the expansion of powers by the centralized state was a direct threat to our liberty. and i will say, we conservatives have always believed that as the federal government gets more power, the individual loses more power. and it's a balancing act. and the best leaders are those who always understand, when the federal government has to take power in certain areas, that there's always a trade-off. and sometimes, you just have to make that trade-off. but it's constantly in mind.

this blows through every barricade small-government conservatives have put up since william f. buckley founded the national review. read his opening declaration. and compare what william f. buckley said in the 1950s in his declaration on why the national review is being founded, and then contrast that with what donald trump and bill barr are doing right now, and it's absolutely frightening, walter. >> you know, one of the important things you can do at any time, if you want to be a good, moral political person, is do the reversal test. say, how would i feel if the other party were doing this? how would i feel if barack obama or bill clinton were sending in these things, or cozying up to the russians or allowing the

russians to put bounties on our troops or doing this type of big-government authoritarianism to impose their powers. and that's what a true principled conservative -- and i'd put liz cheney in that category, too, and rand paul has spoken up recently as well -- a principled conservative would say. as you said, from the founding of the national review to the founding of the tea party, the notion of liberty and restraints on federal power has been at the core of what conservative ideology has been about. now, we can argue on different points as to whether or not, you know, we want -- how we want to balance that with the common go good, but this is not close, and most republicans are selling out their principles, the principles starting from the national review through the tea party, but also the principles of mainstream republicanism as

well, all because they've fallen into this trap of authoritarianism and playing the race card. you can't forget that. we just mentioned it a moment ago. this isn't just about expanding federal power. it's about playing the race card. >> walter, thank you very much for being on this morning. we want to bring in now the mayor of new york city, democrat bill de blasio. mayor de blasio, thank you for being on. i guess i'll just start with the reality before us. what will you do if what happens in portland comes to new york city? >> well, mika, look, i still believe in the rule of law in this country. and we would go to court immediately. i believe what the president is doing is unconstitutional. and i thought that quote from tom ridge was really important to recognize, this is not the place of federal agencies to get involved in repressing the right to free speech, disrupting the right to protest, which is an american right.

look. look what the president said. he said he wanted to dominate the protesters. remember that quote a few weeks ago. that has nothing to do with the mission of these federal agencies. >> i believe he also said cut through them like butter, just to -- >> correct. and it's -- when you look at the law, the constitution, federalism, but also the specific mandates of these agencies, it has nothing to do with crowd control or addressing protests. so, right now, what the president is doing is he's tearing up the constitution. what he did in portland is already a horrible step in the wrong direction, and it's been counterproductive. it's created more violence, more harm, more protests. so, in the end, if one of these federal officers steps foot in new york city with the intention of denying the first amendment rights of new yorkers, we will be in court immediately and we will win, because every time they've tried an unconstitutional act, every time the trump administration has tried to bend the constitution to their will, they have lost in court. and mayors all over the country

feel it -- mika, i've got here a letter -- 16 major american mayors have sent this to the justice department to homeland security, saying, we do not want these officers in our city. we're putting it on record. this is unconstitutional. step back now. and i think the american people feel the same way. democrats and republicans alike do not want to see the federal government interfering in local affairs in such a dangerous fashion. >> and so, mr. mayor, of course, that is the case. and i've spoken with people that live in oregon, who are very concerned about what's going on, but they're also very concerned about crime going up. they're very concerned about feeling the governor and other people haven't acted aggressively enough. we've certainly seen shootings going up in new york city. we had you on several years ago talking about how things had gotten so safe in new york city that you had to go back to the 1950s. >> that's right. >> and people had to guess when the last time things were so safe in new york city. but there has been a surge not just in new york city but in

cities all across america as you and other mayors try to balance the concerns of policing with the safety of people in new york city. and as you know, republicans started getting elected to new york city with rudy giuliani because of crime. i talked to democrats, liberal democrats that voted for giuliani several, you know, two times, because they wanted their streets safe. they wanted to be able to take their family to a broadway show or to a restaurant in new york city and know they're going to be safe. so, what's the balance there? i know it's been very tough for all mayors. you've found yourself sort of caught between the left and the right since the death of george floyd. what's the balance? how do the mayors do it? how do the governors do it so the federal government doesn't have to do it? >> it's also, look, we have to. we have to make our streets

safe. it's the number one responsibility of anyone in executive office. and you're right, in new york city, we've been the safest big city in america for years. we've had a very tough few months, no doubt, and it is directly related to the coronavirus, the dislocation it's caused in our society, the fact that our court system is not functioning yet. so many factors that have been absolutely abhorrent for just the last four or five months. but we will beat it back because we have done that for a quarter century in this city. and the key is, we will too it. we, the people of new york city. we need the people's involvement to make the city safer, the nypd. and if we ever need any assistance, that's what localities do. when they feel they need assistance, then wait for that request from locality that knows what's right for its people. but it is not the place of the federal government. it's never been the place of the federal government to decree that the federal government knows better than the people of a certain city or state who have made the choice of who their leaders are and who their policies are. the federal government's just

going to roll in with force and subvert the rights of the people of that city. that's where i part company. yes, we've got to fight back in this city, and we will. and we see already the new strategies putting police in a lot of the right places, engaging the community more to stop the violence is working. but it's not going to work if people who are not trained to do this -- and these federal agents and officers do not know how to work in this environment without potentially causing a lot more violence and a lot more problems. that's why it's so unacceptable. >> well, and of course, you have local officials in portland and a lot of other people pushing back, saying we don't want you here. we had tom ridge saying it would be a cold day in hell that he would ever allow that to happen if he were the mayor, or if he were the governor, and having unmarked cars yank americans off street and send them to detention without probable cause. sounds more like something that would happen in a totalitarian

state than in the united states of america. >> that's right. >> let's go from safety to schools. no easy choices for you or any other public official, especially on the local level, regarding schools. federal officials can, you know, shoot their mouths off and talk about how things should be. mayors, governors, city council people have to make those tough decisions. how are you balancing the school decision? because you have parents like me who know their kids will learn more in person, but also, parents like myself who are also concerned because i've got kids with underlying health conditions, and i'm worried about them going back. how is new york city balancing that? and how are you balancing the concerns of parents who rightly want their kids back in school but want to keep their families safe? >> that's right. joe, so, first thing we did is we asked the parents what they wanted. we did a survey. we got 400,000 responses. that tells you something about how passionate people are on this topic.

75% of new york city public school parents want their kids back in school. they agree with your point, that you're going to learn much better in school, that the kids need that for their development and their future. everyone cares about safety and health. so, the way i look at it is, look, right now, new york city has had extraordinary success after going through hell in march and april. the people of the city really fought back against this disease. they've been very disciplined. the face coverings, the social distancing. we've been really tough in restrictions we've had in place. and now consistently, our health indicators show that we would be in the position to open up school, but we're going to make that judgment when we get right up on the beginning of school in september. that's when we'll make the final decision, but it's got to be about safety first. from my point of view, you do everything possible to make the school environment safe -- social distancing in the schools, face coverings, constant cleanings. and a lot of kids will stay home. a lot of parents will decide, because of underlying health conditions or some other reason, that they want that remote

learning instead. that will be available to anyone who prefers that. so, we're going to have both tracks running. and bluntly, i think, so long as we can keep this disease pushed back, we can make this work safely. the day we get to the vaccine is the day that we'll really go to full five-day-a-week, normal instruction in our schools. >> all right, thank you so much, mr. mayor. we greatly appreciate it. mayor bill de blasio. so, bob costa, you certainly are familiar not only with the traditions of american liberalism, but certainly of american conservatism. i'm curious what your thoughts are about what conservative, so-called conservative republicans are allowing the republican president of the united states to do in oregon as far as this expansion of the centralized state police force. and i'm wondering what you're hearing from conservative republicans behind the scenes. are you hearing any concerns

about this seemingly unprecedented expansion of the federal government's powers? >> and it should be noted, behind the scenes, all this talk. publicly, silence, or very little being said by most congressional republicans. and let's go -- there's a running thread between what mika said earlier, about the comments the president made over the weekend, where he would not -- he said he would not necessarily pledge to accept the results of the election, a comment that threatens to erode the credibility of the upcoming elections and the comments by mayor de blasio, where you see many american mayors -- i spoke to the mayor of houston, texas, yesterday, to the mayor of new york, grappling with the federal government and attorney general, a department of homeland security that are having a militarized response to protests over statues and federal buildings, but with very little or no communication with state leaders or local leaders about

their intentions, about their operations. we have a president who's with his own comments and his actions saying he may not accept the election results as he barrels forward with a darker message on his campaign about american cities being in turmoil and use -- >> we lost bob's shot there. but go ahead, mika. i'm sorry. >> well, i'm going to take a stab at what i think bob costa was hitting on here, as we go to break and thank bob costa for his reporting. here are the choices for congressional republicans today. here are your choices. as to what you might want to focus on, what might slightly -- i'll speak slowly for you -- what might slightly disturb you when it comes to what is happening to our country under president trump. so, here are your choices, congressional republicans. the federal militarized response

to mostly peaceful protesters, sending the feds in to portland and now possibly new york city. you could think about talking about that and being concerned about it. you might want to think about it. that's your first choice. your second one is president trump not really giving voice to his top scientists on the coronavirus, which is not getting better. it's getting worse. much worse. testing is getting worse. they're falling back in testing. the response time is now longer. you won't be able to do contact tracing. more people are going to die. and again, i'll speak slowly so you can understand this -- this is a pandemic that could be mitigated. other countries have successfully mitigated this pandemic by doing very simple techniques, nationalized responses to testing, social distancing, and masking, okay?

and this president actually says that we are only in the process of developing a strategy. >> unbelievable. >> when there could have been one months ago. i'll give you a third one that maybe you could be slightly concerned about, if you cared a damn about this country. the president giving a hat tip to ghislaine maxwell, saying he wishes her well. a woman who is accused of abusing children by his justice department, when this president has in the past sent those little messages through his public orations, saying something that then ends up to somebody getting out of jail or being pardoned, or whatever. okay, congressional republicans? i'm just wondering, if i slow down and deliver to you these facts, which are basic, and

which would just require you to use your brain and your moral compass and say something and do something. do you see what is happening? can you still not see it? are you going to wait even longer? it will be on you. we're trying to give you the information here. this is not about democrat-republican, right-left. this is about right-wrong, and it's obvious. we'll be right back. right-wrongd it's obvious we'll be right back. each person. that's why i like liberty mutual. they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. almost done. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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claire mccaskill, before you go, i just want to ask you, we were talking about congressional republicans in the last block. what do you think of these congressional republicans who have, you know, go around over the years holding up their constitution constitutions? some of them keep a copy of the constitution in their pockets. and yet, they're so meek when

the federal government in unmarked vans is yanking people off the street and driving away with them. what do you make of this? >> well, first, the acting secretary of homeland security is not qualified. they have not confirmed him. he's a they have not confirmed him. he's a lobbyist. no experience in military or police, none. and the senate is standing by and allowing an unqualified leader take the boot to the united states constitution. second, they're allowing these rogue border patrol to show up in camo. and what's really insulting about that, mika, that the senators are saying nothing. they're showing up in camo as if they're going to war against american citizens. meanwhile, they're saying nothing about the bounty that has been placed on our military that actually should be wearing camo in afghanistan.

and there are still crickets, not only from the republicans in the senate, but the president of the united states, about the bounty being placed on our military. finally, the notion that they're allowing this ridiculous fig leaf of jurisdiction. think about this. the federal government doesn't respond to 911 calls. over 95% of crimes in this country is prosecuted by state prosecutors. they're pretending because there's a federal building, they get to turn into unmarked law enforcement in our cities in this country. that is outrageous. and the republicans in the senate know it. and they are under a rock. they're not going to come out from under a rock. when they finally crawl out, they have zero credibility left on any principles. >> i wonder where exactly we will be at that point. claire, thank you very much. joining us now, the director of

the harvard global health institute. a practicing physician and professor of medicine at harvard medical school. the largest clinical lab company says it's not going to be able to keep up with covid-19 test when it is flu season starts in the fall. are we going in the right direction, are things getting better or are things getting worse. >> good morning and thanks for having me on. we're hitting a wall when it comes to testing. we have expanded testing since march, which is good news. there are two sets of issues. one is we don't have enough testing for the level of outbreak we have. second, the testing we do have, our system wasn't really designed to deliver on this. what's happening, as you've heard, there are ten-day, two-week turn-around times. if it's taking two weeks for the

test results to come back, it's pretty much useless. we need a whole new strategy on testing. >> there's been some encouraging reports in recent days and weeks that there have been positive developments with the vaccine. tell us a little bit about the challenges that await, that even were as the president promised, that a vaccine may be developed by early this year or the end of next. walk us through a vaccine simply being created and the challenges of manufacturing it and distributing it and getting people to take it. >> once someone said vaccines don't save lives. vaccinations save lives. you have to get the vaccine into

someone's arm. there's a lot of steps between creating the vaccine and getting it into someone's arms. first of all, there is encouraging information. i've been very optimistic about what we're seeing. the bottom line is that we need to really know if these vaccines are safe and effective and that's going to require a large clinical trial. we're about to enter the large clinical trials. my guess is mid to late fall we'll have some of that data. we're already ramping up some of the manufacturing. the key thing is we'll need to make billions of doses of these vaccines for the entire population. we're not the only people in the world that want a vaccine. we're ramping up vaccines. we're going to hit serious supply chain problem, making sure we have enough files and syringes to basically managing that entire process, it's going to be a challenge. my best guess is things will go super well. we'll have a vaccine in early 2021.

it will be wildly available for americans, april, may, june kind of time frame. >> thinking of places like texas and florida where the numbers are skyrocketing, they're having a surge. there's a lot of questions about whether or not schools should reopen. what did you take away from the numbers we are seeing in terms of prognosticating what the next few weeks will look like in those hot spots. >> so, first of all, i think it's worth providing a little context. places like florida, for instance, more cases are happening in florida than all of europe. florida's not just a hot spot in the u.s. it's arguably the global hot spot. places like texas and arizona and south carolina as well. so, these are places with very large outbreaks compared to much of the world.

my big question to policy makers has been, how serious are you about schools. just saying, hey, i want schools open. sure, we all want schools open but that's not serious policy. serious policy is if you want schools open and you want them to be able to stay open for the entire fall, then you've got to get very aggressive by bringing the virus numbers way, way down. and i just don't see any real seriousness from political leaders in many of these states for opening up schools. i think that's terrible, by the way. kids need to get back to school this fall. it's not going to happen magically. it's going to take work. i don't see anybody doing the work necessarily to get the kids back in. basically, i think it's a travesty. we're giving up on our kids. most days i can't even believe we're trying to get them back in this fall. >> you and me the same. dr. jha, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. i want to frame what he just

said. a leading voice on the pandemic. florida is a global hot spot, florida is a global hot spot. there are very large outbreaks. governor desantis, president trump, where your southern white house is. this is incredible. as dr. jha just said, it is a travesty what is happening. things are not getting better. another quote, we've hit a wall. that's where we are right now. in the fight against the coronavirus, where other places have put into place clear steps to mitigate, and they have been successful. still ahead, lawmakers are working on another round of coronavirus relief measures, but in-fighting among senate

republicans may keep anything from getting done. we'll be joined by senator cory booker. "morning joe" is back in a moment. booker "morning joe" is back in a moment don't just think about where you're headed this summer. think about how you'll get there. and now that you can lease or buy a new lincoln remotely or in person... discovering that feeling has never been more effortless. accept our summer invitation to get 0% apr on all 2020 lincoln vehicles. only at your lincoln dealer.

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would love him to follow the biden plan. even if they were republicans and conservatives, to listen to the scientists, to listen to the doctors. >> i feel like you should say from the outset, ladies and gentlemen, i have reflected on this period and i have decided i am now embracing in the spirit of bipartisanship, the one place we will not have a fight or a brawl in this campaign is a matter of public health. so in the spirit of unifying the country, i'm embracing publicly and full-throatedly the biden plan. >> i don't think he'll do that. >> that's not happening, guys. >> i certainly don't think he'll do, i'm going to follow the biden plan that joe biden actually put in writing at the end of january when i was saying, it's one person coming in from china. even if he doesn't call it the biden plan, to actually follow the advice of doctors and scientists and let them lead in these discussions, even if he doesn't call it the biden plan, he could actually, though -- he could just embrace it.

>> were you invited to the briefing today? >> i was not invited up to this point. i'm assuming i'm not going to be there because it's going to be in such a short while and i'm still here at the nih. >> why are your doctors not here with you? where is dr. fauci and dr. birx? >> dr. birx is right outside. >> well, he didn't follow the biden plan. president trump returned to the briefing room alone and stuck to several of his often told lies about the virus. about the country's mortality rate, testing, availability of supplies and, yet again claiming, the virus will just disappear. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." >> jonathan lemire, just outside the room, dr. birx. wasn't there a song in "hamilton" being in the room

where it happened and -- >> oh, my lord. yeah. >> he keeps his doctors out of the room and he gets up there and, again, it's a pretty -- it was pretty remarkable before. it was like a president who had taken america through 2, 2 1/2 vietnams before saying, you know what, i think we're going to assemble a plan on this vietnam thing. and that wasn't even the biggest news out of the press conference, which we're going to get to in a second. the biggest news out of the press conference was, they seemed to send a signal to an accused child sex trafficker. >> the room where it happened, you're right, also it should be noted the title of john bolton's book. >> no, no, no, no, you cannot do

that to alexander hamilton. we do not know john bolton and alexander hamilton's name in the same sentence, do we, jonathan? anyway, goed. >> withdrawn, withdrawn, withdrawn. >> okay, thank you, sir. >> yes, the president appeared solo yesterday. dr. birx was, indeed, just outside the room. dr. fauci was a few miles away up in bethesda. the president came out there and aides signaled this would be a little different. i think we saw after the president spoke, there was that rush to proclaim, which we're not going to do here, a rush to proclaim that he had a new tone. we have seen this before, joe. we have seen that the president from time to time can stick to a script, can strike a more somber approach and then we know that goes away by the next morning's tweets. so, we're not going to talk about that, too. it certainly did seem at minimum, at least for a day, the president acknowledged his previous approach had not been

working. there was less bluster from the podium. there was acknowledgment the virus was going to get worse before it gets better. at the same time, he gave misstatements about the nation's testing capability. he suggested the virus eventually would just go away. it did seem, despite some good notes he struck, and he said we should set aside our criticisms of them and simply celebrate what he did say. >> but this has happened repeatedly. he'll have one day, one day, one day, out of the past six, seven months where 140,000 americans have died. again, 2 1/2 times the number of deaths in vietnam. he'll have one day and say maybe with all these people dying, maybe i should read my script instead of lying about masks instead of mocking joe biden about masks, instead of mocking

reporters about masks, instead of accusing people of being politically correct, instead of sending his chief of staff to capitol hill to see people wearing masks and say, you sure look funny wearing masks. again, let's put this in perspective, my friends. over 140,000 people have died. over 140,000 americans have died and as jonathan lemire has point out, once in a while he reads his script. once in a while he doesn't make something that makes the lives of senior citizens and diabetics and people with asthma hang in the balance. once in a while he doesn't say something that encouraging americans to abuse store clerks for wearing masks, to abuse people in grocery stores who

take care of you, who work for minimum wage, who put their lives on the line every day because they have families to take care of and they have people screaming at them, people abusing them, people getting in their face and screaming, people going to racks with masks and dumping them on the floor because they think americans have fought and died for over 240 years so they could have the constitutional right to kill senior citizens, to kill diabetics, to kill people with asthma, to kill their family members and they kill others by not wearing masks. mika? >> yeah. >> we do not give a president credit, after 142,000 americans

have died, after 2 1/2 vietnam war deaths and saying, we shouldn't have gone into vietnam. we're going to come up with a plan to get out of vietnam, because this wasn't really vietnam. this was much easier. this was like -- and i'm not being sarcastic here. do what joe biden told you to do at the end of january. let the doctors and let the scientists run this show. instead, here we are, 142,000 dead, after 2 1/2 vietnams, you don't get credit for that. you don't get credit for letting -- letting over 100,000 senior citizens die. you don't get credit for ignoring this virus time and time again. you don't get credit for being -- i don't know, i think

probably more wrong than any president in the history of the united states has ever been, with more calamitous results. i'm sorry, just stop. go home. you've already killed enough americans. >> it's absolutely true, he has. >> by the way, if that sounds extreme, i'd be glad to spend the next three hours just reading your quotes, mr. president. i'd be glad to do that. if anybody, any of your apologists, who have been mocking people for wearing ma s masks, while you've said this -- masks are politically correct. oh, you're wearing the mask because you want to be politically correct. he said masks were dirty. you said wearing masks are

double-edged swords. quote, people touch them and grab them and i see it all the time. they come in, they take the mask, now they're holding it now in their fingers and they drop it on the desk and then they touch their eye and they touch their nose. no, i think a mask, it's a double-edged sword. no, it's not a double-edge sword. your own cdc, since the beginning of april, your own surgeon general, who even did videos in the beginning of april, this is how you make a mask at home because there's a shortage of masks. i don't know if you remember that, there was a shortage of masks. doctors, nurses, medical providers didn't have those masks. he was concerned about it. >> didn't he go to a mask factory -- >> wouldn't wear a mask. no, it was a swab factory in maine -- i think it was in maine. jonathan lemire, was it in maine

where they refused to wear a mask so they had to destroy all the work they did when the president was there? >> that's what it was. >> joe, that's exactly right. i think you are correct here. as i was saying, whatever the president said yesterday, this is a too little, too late moment for him. this is something he should have advocated for months ago, to wear masks, for young people to stay out of bars, for states not to reopen before they were ready, to follow the guidelines of the president's own cdc. he doesn't get credit for sticking to the talking points from the podium for one day. there's no sense here. there's never been the ability for a president to keep up a sustained new approach, to stick to the data, to stick to -- the fact he appeared solo yesterday undercuts the idea that he was going to be deferring to the medical professionals, to the task force, which a lot of republicans want him to do. a lot of senators have said, we'd welcome these briefings to

come back, but, mr. president, we don't want you to be the centerpiece. maybe mike pence could emcee, have your health care professionals up there, have them deliver the health data that the country needs right now. as the virus is surging in about, i believe, 40 states cases are increasing and this administration has not been able to manage this crisis effectively. what we saw yesterday was simply the president, again, perhaps for one day, bowing to the idea that his re-election chances are in grave -- he is getting pressure from capitol hill, pressure from fellow republicans that he needs to change his tone before he falls that much further behind joe biden, who right now he is trailing significantly in nearly every single battleground state he would need to win november. that's what yesterday was about. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll show you that astounding moment from the president's briefing where he

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was the first in months from the president, remarkably little news came out of it. nearly 4 million cases in this country and 143,000 deaths so far that we know of. the president yesterday said, quote, we are in the process of developing a strategy. we are in the process, we're in the process of developing a strategy. with a pandemic where a strategy could have been in place months ago. basic science that a third grader could understand and we're in the process. just saying. in reality the biggest takeaway from the event was something entirely non-coronavirus related. trump was asked about the arrest of ghislaine maxwell, the british socialite criminally charged with procuring underage

girls to be sexually abused by the late investor, jeffrey epstein and his friends. >> ghislaine maxwell is in prison, and so a lot of people want to know if she's going to turn in powerful people. i know you talked in the past about prince andrew and you criticized bill clinton's behavior. i'm wondering, do you feel she's going to turn in powerful men? how do you see that working out? >> i don't know. i haven't been following it too much. i just wish her well, frankly. i've met her numerous times over the years since i lived in palm beach and i guess they lived in palm beach, and i wish her well. i don't know the situation with prince andrew. just don't know. not aware of it. >> he wishes her well. prosecutors say maxwell played a critical role in helping epstein identify, befriend and groom minor victims for abuse, girls, young girls, children.

she has denied the allegations and she has pleaded not guilty. you know what, i just want that to sit there for a while. the president at his coronavirus briefing had no doctors, but he wished ghislaine maxwell well. i know there's no proven connection in any way, but we've shown on this show video of donald trump dancing with jeffrey epstein and a bunch of girls dancing around him. and he wishes her well. i'm extremely uncomfortable with what i just heard and i think everybody should be. and the questions in this case need to be asked and asked and asked until they are answered. and i just think it's very strange that the president would make a comment like that in a case like this. >> well, this is former prosecutors talking about that bizarre comment yesterday, wishing well a woman who was

accused of procuring and abusing herself and having jeffrey epstein abuse young girls for powerfully connected men over years and years' time. it does seem bizarre. and kasie hunt, we've all herd the president send these sort of messages out before, to roger stone and to paul manafort and others, wishing them well, wishing people well, in a context that makes absolutely no sense. he did this yesterday. this had to be so shocking and jarring to these women who were

procured, who were groomed, who were prepared for sexual abuse when they were young girls. and the president of the united states is wishing the woman accused of this, wishing her well. didn't that strike you as bizarre? >> i think anyone who has read any part of the indictment that was leveled at ghislaine maxwell would be shocked by this. the allegations that she was in the room trying to make these girls more comfortable in these kinds of situations with jeffrey epstein. i mean, everything about this is just -- i mean, set aside paul manafort, roger stone, you're right, the president sends those kind of messages to those people and we should judge that accordingly, but, i mean, we are talking about despicable crimes

with victims who face years of trauma and damage because of these actions. you know, for the president to -- he clearly has familiarity with the situation. he takes the question. seems to engage with it like he's the person in those photographs that we were just showing from years ago in new york or palm beach, wherever they were taken, and he just sort of throws prince andrew in there on top of it, a name that wasn't previously mentioned. does he want to be part of that situation? i mean, i have so many questions. to your point, joe, for the victims of this, it had to be really, really hard to watch. coming up on "morning joe," senator cory booker tweeted yesterday, hiding your medical experts won't make covid-19 disappear. after president trump's return to the briefing room. senator booker is standing by and joins us next on "morning joe."

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we are in it the process of developing a strategy that's going to be very, very powerful.

we've developed as we go along. >> we're in the process? joining us now, democratic senator of new jersey, senator cory booker. jonathan lemire and claire mccaskill are with us as well. senator booker, great to have you on the show. it does seem like things are getting worse in a pandemic that actually was clear and simple, mitigation techniques could can get better. you're leading senators in urging trump to reverse a decision that he made to get out of the w.h.o. this is one of many decisions that has been very striking along the way in terms of how this president has led during this pandemic. >> well, again, we're in a situation that's not about politics. it's not about opinion. we have a whole lot of data where we know, we do certain things, we do certain results. we've now receive the ways.

i found by the time july 4th celebrations were coming on, i saw media just predicting that gatherings, more increase in covid-19 tests, more positive tests and more deaths. we're seeing that now. governors who did not follow the advice of medical professionals, more cases and the powerful thing about the international perspective is we have comparables of other nations. nations that got the same awful pandemic when we did. it's stunning when you look at everywhere from taiwan, which got it around the same time we did, has about seven or eight deaths the last time i checked all the way to canada, our northern neighbor, who hasn't dealt with it perfectly, made mistakes but has dramatically less deaths and dramatically less rates. this falls at the feet of people

who have openly been going against the medical experts' advice, including governors and a president who has been incendiary in igniting this crisis in this country. making us a tragic outlier on planet earth for the number of deaths suffering tragedy, economic harm and more. >> claire mccaskill, jump in. >> cory, good morning. i miss you. >> i miss you. more than you can imagine. >> i want to ask you about this stimulus/relief package that is going to be on the table for the next two or three weeks. from where i sit, it looks like the democrats' priority is help for family, state and local governments, more testing. the white house priority seems to be no more money for testing. and then you have mitch mcconnell who says his number one priority right now is making

sure businesses can never be sued for anything, no matter how egregious their conduct is. that's an interesting set of priorities. how do you see this coming together? what do you think the final package will actually look like? and will you get it done? >> again, the priorities have been laid out before me of republican leadership has been just stunning. it's just poverty with empathy and understanding what the average family, republican, democrat, independent, is really suffering and struggling with. the idea of instead of doing stimulus checks and enhance unemployment, we want to do incentive pay for people who go back to work. when everybody from airline industry and sports are doing mass layoffs, telling people we'll give them money when you go back to work when you don't have a job is helpful, when our president is trying to force people to go back to school and not give the schools the resources they need to protect

children, to protect adults in the school and to protect -- teenagers we're finding from the data can be real super spreaders to protect those families is unacceptable. again, i'm kind of perplexed when everybody from the fed chair is calling for more stimulus to our economy, who we know what works to stimulate our economy, everything from the stimulus checks to families to enhance unemployment, that we don't do those things, our overall economy will suffer. we'll see more people miss mortgage payments, rental payments and have a level of stress and struggle that's unacceptable in a nation this wealthy. >> let's go to jonathan lemire for the next question. jonathan? >> hey, senator, i had two questions. first, the prognosis is getting better for the democrats to take back the senate this fall. if your party were to do so, would you support the

filibuster? second, we know the president is going to have an event talking about the rising crime in american cities that coins sici with federal officers, many dressed in military, on the streets of portland, potentially heading to chicago and other cities next. i want your take on that. filibuster and then what we're seeing in these american cities, sir. >> i've heard some healthy conversations already on the filibuster, should we win. one of those conversations i was the first person to say, guys, let's deal with one challenge at a time. i'm one of those people that leaves the door open should we come to that eventuality but we have a little over 100 days. the world can change. if you look at the past 100 days, the world can change. i'm going to do the work with a lot of really good candidates from iowa to south carolina to georgia to arizona, colorado. these are a lot of states that right now there are tough competitions going on within the

margin of error. to your second question, look, let me say plainly as a guy who was mayor of a major city, who saw -- what the president is doing, number one, is not constructive strategies to help reduce crime. again, i can show you the data. there's a lot of things he's been fighting against. something as simple as giving people economic security, expanding the earned income tax credit, are directly correlated with low crime rates. let's be clear, there are deep racial undertones to this kind of strategy. we saw it with richard nixon. we saw it with willie horton ads during an election. this president is not to dog whistly but making it plain. he's trying to make america afraid, trying to make america afraid of cities by continually

attacking them. i saw how he attacked the city of baltimore and elijah cummings and john lewis and the district he represents. the black and brown districts he regards with vile language. this is nothing but a racially, incendiary attempt to make people afraid and seem like, just likes nixon did and others, that he's been a strong law and order person. when he really, really is not doing the kind of things that would help mayors, like i was, to lower their crime rates. >> senator cory booker, thank you so much for being on this morning. up next, our next guest is pushing back against a best-selling book entitled "white fragility," arguing it is condescending towards black people. columbia university professor john mcwhorter, along with the

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we wanted to talk about your piece in "the washington post" entitled "the truths ""to kill a mockingbird" kills white people." and you write, this month marks the 60th anniversary of the pulitzer prize-winning book. for me the enduring appeal of "mockingbird" lies not only the plot or characters the book is a mirror, a source of who we are. atticus is the quintessential example of what it is to be a good white person, inspiring young people across the country

to become lawyers and enables white people again and again point to a fictional character as proof that not all actual white people are racist. it is a myth, a lie that america tells itself that perpetuates racism. at best, he was the least overtly racist person in a racist town. in reality, atticus was an unwilling participant in the racial fight. he accepted the assignment not only to attempt to prevent a miscarriage of justice but to maintain the racial order in macom. you go on and write, six decades lating what "mockingbird" makes clear this is the way things have always been. an entire book premised on the idea about right and wrong, the

earnest townspeople are able to see this in every other area except race. black americans are still waiting on enough white people of conscience to care enough to do something about racism, for it to be unacceptable that the work of trying to fix how race is lived should be the burden of only one white person. >> you know, errin, "to kill a mockingbird" is the favorite book and movie for a lot of people, for a lot of sort of -- i only know this because i grew up in the south, for a lot of white southerners, so i only speak for myself and my friends. it is remarkable that in that book that takes place in a racist -- a racist south of the 1950s, that atticus, his best takeaway, all he had to say at

the end, because racism surrounded them so much was they thought about it. the jury stayed out for a long time. at least they didn't reflexivly convict this black man. here we are 60 years later, 70 years later, and there's a reason why a lot of black writers and black intellectuals still don't believe that somehow a collective reckoning among white people will ever happen, because here we are 70 years later and we watch a black man being choked to death for nine minutes because of a counterfeit $20 bill. >> right. and, joe, i thought you might have some thoughts on this. i know you went to alabama. i know you're a lawyer by trade. i wondered if you were, perhaps,

inspired by atticus finch whose character in the book did inspire a lot of people in this country to become lawyers. so many people i know have named their pets, have named their children after atticus. that's how large a figure he looms in the american imagination. but to your point, i think this is also a story about what it means when you have, you know, folks that you would think that most people would consider kind of good white folks. what it means when they are kind of complicit in maintaining a racial hierarchy that is oppressive to black americans. what does it mean when they just decide to accept the status quo, when they decide this is too big of a problem for us to confront. we should just let this one good person, you know, try to lead the charge and do something

different. not necessarily to address the entire system but maybe, you know, to write something they see as an individual wrong. you know, that was a story when this book was written in 1960 about, you know, the 1930s, the great depression era. and i think that is largely how a lot of people feel you know, i was actually prompted to reflect on this book. i did an interview with a german radio station that was doing a story about the anniversary. they had seen i had written a story, the story about amy cooper and christian cooper and that exchange. and really that dynamic and what it reflected for me, which was the weaponization of white womanhood in this country and the first thing i thought about was "mockingbird." what if tom robinson had a cell phone the way christian cooper had a cell phone in the park

that day. what would either one of them have made it to a courthouse in macon? even if robinson had that cell phone proof, would that jury, had they been willing to still convict him? i think these kind of themes remain with us. i am not calling for the canceling of "mockingbird" whatsoever. i know some people may read the headline and think, she's trying to kill "mockingbird." this is one of my favorite books. this is one my favorite books. it's probably a favorite book for a different reason because

of the truths it tells about race in america. >> you know, you are right. atticus finch was an inspiration, not only to me but to so many other southern lawyers. and there was this promise -- >> absolutely. >> there was this promise that white people could afford to see "to kill a mockingbird," a promise i still believe in, but of course it's easier for me to believe in this than a black man who grew up in the south with far different experiences than me. but it's of the promise of pragmatism, the promise that one person can start to change opinions in a town that we can do better. to borrow from another great 20th century book, that we can beat on boats against a current, that we can run faster tomorrow, that this we can -- you know, that we can find that green

light of racial reconciliation. totally mixing the great gatsby and "to kill a mockingbird." but there is that promise. again, i think we white people reading "to kill a mockingbird" might want to consider is the fact that we can afford to celebrate atticus finch's pragmatism. we can afford to say, look, one person is trying to make a difference to short of change the tide. that's not a luxury a lot of black readers have, that they had in the 1950s or that they have today. >> yeah. and, again, joe, i mean, we have to remember, atticus took this case, he didn't necessarily want to take it, but took it because he knew of the racial dynamics in macon. he knew what the outcome would

be either way. he knew that it was wrong that tom robinson was being accused of raping maya but he also knew he was trying to keep the racial hierarchy, which was veiled as the racial harmony in that town, that that was really what this case was kind of about for him. he was also thinking, you know, about shielding his children from from racism and kind of hoping that they did not, you know, turn out like a lot of his friends and neighbors, frankly, turned out in that town. but, again, this was not somebody who was a crusader in in way. he was reluctant and when that travels over and the outcome -- the predictable and preventable outcome happens, you know, what does he do? he goes back to his life. they go on with their lives. the black people in macon go back to their lives and the lives they were living on the other side of the tracks, still

oppress oppressed, still living in the jim crow alabama. you don't see atticus, you know, taking on systemic racism. he's taking on the case of one individual and, you know, laments that. beau radialley who may be the o white people who is good and ends up being a goody man until the end, you know, he is certainly i would say is a hero. but atticus, i don't know if we rightly label him as a hero. but i know that that is what so many people come away with from the reading of this book. >> we want to expand the conversation now and talk about the book by author robin

diangelo, "white fragility," topping best seller lists for well over a year while receiving widespread critical acclaim. this is the fastest selling book in the history of beacon the book recently saw a resurgence in demand this summer, reaching number one on "the new york times" best seller again, as the george floyd protests swept the nation. d'angelo's book explores white people have when their assumptions about race are challenged. diangelo who is white, regards racism as the foundation of the society we are in. recently, atlantic contributing writer and professor at columbia university, john mccourter who, himself, is an author of a number of books on race relations took on some of the central themes in diangelo's

book. he is no stranger to bold critiques, recently taking on "the new york times'" 1619 project with a stern yet critical eye. we should note that we invited robin diangelo to take part of this discussion this morning. she, unfortunately, was unable to join us. we hope to have her on the program soon. we wanted to proceed forward with this fascinating discussion. so instead we have the man who authored the forward of the book for us, social commentator michael eric dyson. his own latest book is entitled "tears we cannot stop:a sermon to white america." aforementioned professor at columbia university john mcworther. >> michael, always great to have you. professor, thank you for coming on today. if you could, talk about your critique of the book that you

laid out in the atlantic. professor? can you hear me? >> i am so sorry, but we're breaking up so much that i can't -- >> oh, yeah. okay. >> so sorry. >> so sorry about that, professor. we'll have alex and the team try to work with your shot. instead, michael, talk about the book and why you wrote the forward to it. >> i wrote the forward because it is always great to be on with you and mika, brother joe. i wrote the forward because this is a timely book. the intervention and racial escapades was long overdue and

for a white woman to say there are so many whites who find it incapable or acknowledge it to which they've been consciously or unconsciously complicit in racial inequalities that prevail and that when people push back on white brothers and sisters to talk about having a race, because we don't often invite brothers and sisters who are white in this country to see themselves as raced, as possessing a race the same way men don't get accustomed to think of them about possessing gender. she talked about the racial stress that was often experienced by white brothers and sisters when they were told they were white, when they were forced to grapple with whiteness in this country, and no great philosopher than the great beyonce knowles has said to challenge racism seems like you're challenging america itself. what robin diangelo is trying to

do is explain to the country, and to white people in particular, that the racial stress you feel and the discomfort that you endure is not necessarily a sign that something is wrong in the recognition that you have to deal with race but that it is an open doorway to try to grapple with the inequalities that african-american, latinx and other people's experience on a daily basis. >> so, professor, i understand you can hear us better now. in the atlantic, and i hope i state this correctly, part of your argument against the book is that the author pushes people into the corner and basically creates this circular logic that makes it impossible to debate any of the issues that she brings forward in this book. explain. >> well, yeah, that is accurate. what robin diangelo has created is a way of interacting between

white and black people where a white person is not to say anything at all about race other than amen on the pain of being told that they have practically physically injured the black person in question. and there are two quick problems with that. one is that it in the name of treating us with dignity. there's not been people within the history of the human species that require treatment that careful even in difficult times. she doesn't intend it, but that whole book is one where i would assume that any black person who actually read it from cover to cover would feel like a white woman were telling them they were 5 years old. the second problem, very quickly, is that there is no precedent in how society has changed, including this one, for the notion that white people have to be this exquisitely sensitive to their, quote,

unquote, complicitness in racial structures. that complicitness is real. the idea that as many white people in possible have to take themselves into a closet and before we can forge social change is a radical proposition that robin dian gechlt lo, unfortunately, doesn't seem to understand needs to be proven. all sorts of things need to happen in black america and we need to get out and do them the way we always have. the spirit of john lewis is hovering over us. you get out and you do the hard work. somehow we're being told that the final step can't happen until all white people feel so guilty that they don't want to get out of bed. i don't get it. that may be some sort of sophisticated sociophilosophical but you won't find it in that

book. >> this white woman, you say, professor, has written -- let me be specific here. you said i have learned that one of america's favorite advice books of the moment is actually a racist tract despite the sincere intentions of the author, the book diminishes black people in the name of dignifying us. >> uh-huh. >> explain that, if you will. >> oh, i mean it. and i don't want any of it back. i'm not calling her a racist but her thesis is discriminatory against basic black resilience and dignity. in that what she's basically saying is that we can't take care of ourselves, that in order to be authentic people, supposed to be pretend to be deeply hurt that things by roughly ten years ago we didn't even know were insults. you have to read the roughly 25-line list she gives in roughly chapter nine of things that white people aren't supposed to say. they can't say anything. the idea being that i'm supposed to be hurt when any of those

things are said. and some people will say, no, she didn't mean you. but, yes, she did mean me. she means all black people. i feel for george floyd but the book is not only about black people who are suffering. the idea is a jeannette ket between all white and black people. and she seems to think that we have a lesser degree of strength. there is no black power in that book. than any human beings who have ever existed in the 300,000-year history of homosapiens. i'm insulted for black people. i am pained to imagine especially a young, black person reading that book and coming out of it with the self image that results from such a patronnizing piece of work. i know diangelo didn't mean it this way i can put myself in her head and see that she sees this as somewhat useful. she's atoning. i can imagine being white and doing it and i think white people do it enough.

over the past 20 years, the typical white person has a sense of whiteness as something to be somewhat guilty about. the idea of saying, oh, that's so white. white women calling themselves white girls in that self depricating way. that book doesn't prove that what we need is white people in closets whipping themselves every morning. >> michael, let me give you the last word. i would love to continue this conversation when we have more time. go ahead, michael. >> first of all, i think millions of black people, unlike my good colleague, dr. john mcworther there, is grateful that robin diangelo has spoken so that black people who are arbitrarily subjected to this book is a breath of fresh air for many african-american people, millions of them, who would disagree with the professor and see that it's gone on in white america itself. we have no bigger force and fleshly embodiment than the

president of the united states of america. furthermore, what robin dian gechlt lo is trying to suggest is that white people have to get beyond the reflexive defensiveness to absorb the information she is talking about but she is only updating what james baldwin talked about, in 1935 called the psychological wages of whiteness. robin diangelo is in a long tradition of articulating ideals and awarenesses that have to be taken seriously if white brothers and sisters are to make a serious engagement with race in this country. >> michael, thank you so much for being with us. i always love having you here. professor, we're so grateful for you being here, too. such an important discussion, and we're really grateful for both of you being here. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. thanks, joe. thanks, mika. hi, er