this virus. >> clint, i've been quoting you in absentia, i want to reach back into our conversations on the air into the past, on the subject of vaccines, sooner or later, with this talk about vaccines, we're going to get at least a first wave of vaccines and then hopefully the 300 million doses our federal government has in mind for american citizens. this will raise, again the anti-vaccine community with opinion polls back in may showing almost 50/50 split american public, will i get it, will i not in you've said in the past, that the anti-vaccine community have received a big

asset from russia on social media because as you put it, and correct me if i am wrong, if you're russia looking at an adversary it's much easier to fight even a social media war with a nation that is not well. do i have it about right? >> that's exactly right, brian. you find and divide and you turn into a chasm inside the united states. the anti-vax movement, we have something very serious happening in our country, we need to get this virus under control and now a strategic wedge has been planted long, long ago, something that naturally occurred in the social media environment can be amplified by foreigned adversaries and those out to make money to push them in direction for political or social change. we're in a very dangerous position. we have also seen this with 5g. even there with you three, four

months ago we were talking about the 5g conspiracies around this popping up. you can slow down technological development. i think this is where after four years of this sort of erosion of trust, not knowing what to believe, no real information out there that we can rest on, denied being facts and figures by the cdc you start to see really crumble and that's why we're dealing with the virus today and we'll fight to put a cure out there for this virus down the road. >> this is the america of 2020. what a world we have asked these two friends to comment on for us. kimberly atkins and clint watts. another break in our live

coverage. when we come back -- back to school. it's happening in a state that's also seeing a surge in cases of coronavirus. our report from there next. frot at heinz, every ketchup starts with our same tomatoes. but not every tomato ends in the same kind of heinz ketchup. because you can't be everyone's favorite ketchup without making a ketchup for everyone.

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welcome back. with a lot of school districts still deciding what to do about fall classes with fall right around the corner and several of these nation's largest districts already announcing online or some kind hybrid approach amid coronavirus concerns, there's new polling out today from the ap that shows only about 1 in 10 americans think day care and schools should fully reopen without restrictions. that's a sharp contrast to what we're hearing from the white house this pressure for schools to reopen. today a school district in tennessee became one of the first to open its doors for in-person instruction since the spring. nbc news correspondent blayne alexander reports. >> reporter: brian, this is the first school district here in the state of tennessee, one of the first in the country that's going back to school in person

here in the age of covid-19. during this pandemic. now a lot of things are going to be looking different. for starters this small district only has about 2,000 students but today only about a fifth of those students are coming back. that's because they're staggering the students coming only one day a week. i talked with the principal here, in addition to partitions and handwashing stations they're taking a number of measures. >> we're pretty much all virtual with every student except the students that chose face to face on a five day stagger, they come once a week and are in a very small number class. >> we're talking no more ten students together. >> it's a 1 to 5 student/teacher together. we're keeping exposure to the rest of the grade level down. >> reporter: across the state

more than 81,000 cases here. administrators in the district say after a lot of thought, consulting with health officials, even some tears and prayers over it, they decided going back this way would be a safe thing to do to resume classes. if parents, one, if you don't feel comfortable bringing your students back you can opt for all virtual classes. the other thing this is in place until labor day, at that point they're going to re-evaluate and determine what, if anything, needs to change. >> blayne lax ander, tennessee, thank you for that report. another break for us. when we come back -- the president bragging on his test meant to screen out dementia showing very signs of effective leadership in the face of a growing pandemic. reaction from a former democratic senator, al franken will be with us right after this.

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we're just over a hundred days until the election, poll after poll showing president trump trailing his opponent joe biden in national polls at least but in a good many cases by double digits. those polls do reflect much of what we have seen from the president in recent days, his ongoing misleading statements, refusal to take re-election in the face of this growing pandemic, inability to meet the moment as the country grapples with racial injustice, even bragging on more than one occasion about his ability to pass a test that is meant to screen out cognitive decline. just a couple of points to discuss as we welcome to the broadcast, former democratic senator from the great state of minnesota, al franken, former member of the senate judiciary committee, these days the host of, wait for it the al franken podcast. thank you very much for being with us. let's start with the event

that's going to be going on during this hour, trump and barr as i said to kim atkins, the snarky way to put this, if you feel the only thing your city has been missing is a federal secret police force, you may be in luck. you would also be forgiven for thinking we're in the middle of the '68 campaign, with talk of law and order and the silent majority, more impactful for you coming from minnesota where the twin cities saw so much violence earlier this year. >> yeah, this is scary. a paramilitary force is what this seems to be in american cities, i don't know if this at best, maybe a distraction at worse a provocation. and it's to detract from covid. which he has failed miserably at and so, i guess to get the

discussion away from that. >> yesterday, his insistence on briefing alone at an event that was build as a coronavirus task force briefing. q and a broke out, that's when we heard him wishing well an accused sex trafficker as maggie haberman raised last night, think of the people in federal custody he's not wished well, think of the presums of innocence of all those arrested and locked up who are people of color, who have not been wished well by the president. >> well, i don't know if this was a roger stone kind of code, that's scary. it's very deeply disturbing thing for him to wish well to

someone who literally was an accomplice to jeffrey epstein and victimizing young women, she hadn't been convicted yet but i think it's pretty clear what happened there. >> i also have ready to play for you the now-famous exchange with chris wallace about the test the president took. we'll talk on the other side. >> in the fox poll they asked people who is more competent, whose mind is sounded? biden beats you in that. >> i tell you what, let's take a test. let's take a test right now. let's go down, joe and i will take a test. let me take the same test -- >> incidentally i took the test when i heard you passed it. it's not the hardest test. >> no, but the last -- no, no. that's all misrepresentation. >> that's on the web. >> yes, the first few questions

are easy. >> al franken, you went to harvard, what do you make of this conversation? >> well, you don't see too many people bragging about passing a dementia test and probably the white house doesn't say, mr. president, you've been really sharp lately, operating on all cylinders but just for the fun of it, we want to see if you can identify an elephant. >> i'm also curious, there you are hunkered down during a pandemic, you're watching the news coverage of this administration, you're watching your 100 closest friends in the united states senate, what do you make of it all? >> well, look, the republicans in the senate, they have the

majority, they have the ability to pass something and they -- they should be spending time on something other than rubber stamping judges, there are millions of americans right now who are scared, they're scared that they're going to be victimed from their homes, they're scared their unemployment is going to be cut off, look, the house, on may 15th, passed the heroes act, what has the senate been doing? it looks like right now it's a clash between the uber-conservatives, nut cases and sort of the lackeys, the republican lackeys. hopefully, they'll get something before the 31st, so these millions of people who have so anxious right now, and this is through no fault of their own,

who know who's at faurlt, donal trump. because every other nation, so many other nations have addressed this properly and this president from the very beginning beginning, for the first six weeks, to two months, refused to acknowledge that this was a serious thing. we have it totally under control. it's going to magically disappear. and i love that he's doubling down on saying, well, it will disappear at some point, well, that's true. but the sun will disappear in about 4 billion years, when it burns itself out. but he has not done the things that you need to do. i have annie slavitt on my podcast every so often on covid and on health care.

he and scott gottlieb -- annie was the head of medicare and medicaid under obama. gottlieb, head of the fda under trump, bipartisan, put together a few months ago a plan for testing and then tracking and tracking folks. and then isolating them. contact tracing. and they put together a workforce of over 180,000 people if we had been doing that, that's what other countries did. that's what those countries like germany that are just having zero, one death from covid are doing. we wouldn't be -- we wouldn't be having this crisis leading up to july 31st if this president had taken some responsibility and led on this. and you saw in that press conference, he had nothing new. nothing new. >> yeah.

al franken, thank you for having us in. thanks for joining us during this hour. a great pleasure to have you. a break for us. we're right back after this. we're right back after this. [♪]

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before we go for this hour,

we want to check in on an emerging and climbing hot spot, no pun intended, on a hot day in nogales, arizona. correspondent and native arizonan vaughn hillyard is between the border between arizona and mexico. vaughn, what's the situation there? >> reporter: brian, i think it's important to note, as we move forward through this summer that there's communities like nogales. that's nogales snoonora up on t hill behind us. border communities who are facing the reality that they don't have the same resources that other places in the hearts of metropolitan areas like pima county. just yesterday, the percent positive rate was more than 55%. it's been over 33% over the entire year. this county, santa cruz county, has the highest rate of positive covid cases of anywhere in the country. i was talking last night with vivianna, who was telling me that she works down the road at the health center here. and she was out of work for two

weeks, because she tested positive. but as well as her husband, who works at the produce distribution center down theed are. he was out of work for two weeks. and now their kids have both tested positive. when you're looking at communities like this, you know, whether it be the navajo nation, yuma, nogales, a lot of the policies that have to be taken into consideration, is how do they impact places like here. brian? >> vaughn, thank you for waiting for us to get to you on a hot day. let's let our audience let that figure of 55% positivity rate along the border sink in. i'll be back with you at 11:00 p.m. eastern time for the wednesday edition of "the 11th hour," coming up next at the top of the hour, nicole wallace hosting "deadline: white house." hosting "deadline: white house." ♪ ♪ perfect. -you're welcome. i love it. how'd you do all this? told ya! wayfair. let's talk dining tables.

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hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. as the coronavirus continues to ravage the country he leads and his political standing along with it, donald trump viewed by a vast majority of americans as having failed to arrest the virus or protect the country's citizens or economy from its spread seeks to wag the dog. that's according to "new york times" columnist, thomas friedman, writing in a column today. the only plot twist in the harrowing reality version of the script is that trump is declaring war inside the country he governs, instead of starting a war abroad, as the fictional president does, as the dark comedy featuring a president who wages war in albania to deflect from political crisis at home.

"the new york times'" front page contains reporting that confirms friedman's thesis, with this report on the political imperative for trump, in creating images of heavily armed, fatigue-wearing federal forces in american cities. quote, the influx of agents in portland have led to scenes of confrontations and chaos that mr. trump and his white house aides have pointed to as they try to burr nicnish a false nare about protesters trying to create widespread bedlam. the trump campaign is driving home that message with a new ad that tries to tie its dark portrayal of democratic-led cities to mr. trump's main rival, joe biden, with exaggerated images intended to persuade viewers that lawless anarchy would prevail if mr. biden won the presidency. in other words, the federal invasion of portland was a photo shoot, zpidesigned or at least d as b-roll for donald trump's

presidential ad campaign, to falsify scenes of anarchy and smear joe biden. here again, thomas friedman offers historical context and tries to answer this question. how did we get here. quote, in a desperate effort to salvage his campaign, trump turned to the middle east dictator's official handbook and found just what he was looking for. the chapter titled, what to do when your people turn against you. answer, turn them against each other and present yourself as the only source of law and order. and as we speak, the president is making the announcement that his stagecraft is now traveling to more u.s. cities, run by democrats, including chicago. it's a reality that chicago's mayor has been embrabracing for warnings that she does not welcome dictatorships in her city. >> while we all understand that having additional federal resources can be a value add, they're not a value add if there are nameless agents riding around the vans, pulling people

off the street, depriving them of their constitutional rights. that is not what a democracy looks like. >> donald trump wagging the dog is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. politics editor for the daily beast, sam stein is here. plus, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi, frank figliuzzi is back. take me through the latest reporting on this. i know you've been digging in. >> sure, well, you know, one of the things i harken back to here is what donald trump did in the 2016 campaign. when he infamously held a rally in chicago, knowing full well that there would be protests bordering on riots around his presence there. it wasn't because he wanted to win votes in chicago. he knew he had very little chance of doing that. it's because he wanted the visuals of a city in unrest. and this is what's happening now. it's a political calculation designed to aid an election. we know this because it's being supplemented by millions of dollars in ads with the same

thematics that his campaign is doing. the only difference between 2016 and now is that donald trump is president. and so he can't put the blame at the feet of anyone other than the mayors of the cities that he's targeting. but ultimately, the buck stops with him. he is the president. and that's where the white house has a miscalculation here. his poll numbers have been obviously going down continuously since the beginning of the year. a lot of it is due to the coronavirus pandemic and his mishandling of it, but if you look at the actual major turning point, it was when he cleared lafayette square to do that photo shoot in front of st. john's church. the calculation inside the white house then was that it would be perceived as him bringing order to a disorderly city. it would be seen as him, you know, putting down protests and respecting both the sanctity of law and of the church. and in reality, people recoiled at the idea that federal agents would do that to peaceful protesters. and i think what trump misunderstands is that we're not

in sort of a nixonian area of politics, where suburbanites look at the cities in horror and we never step foot in there and look at peaceful protesters in horror, wondering what they're protesting. we're in a different era now, where people in the suburbs are more diverse, more supportive of those movements, and they don't find the cities to be some sort of foreign, scary entity, but emphasize with what's going on. this is a risky gamble, far different than the one he took in 2015. >> frank figliuzzi, the president is without a doubt off in that he's boasting about a screen for dementia. the president is without a doubt uninformed, but he's also incredibly consistent with his constant arching and bending towards authoritarian practices. and sam stein is absolutely right to point us back towards the clearing of peaceful protesters in lafayette square. trump learned no lesson. he simply learned to replace active duty military with border patrol agents.

>> the president has been signaling to us, nicole, since at least march that he wants to be a wartime president. in fact, in march at a white house press conference, he referred to himself in the context of the coronavirus as now, i guess i must be a wartime president. he likes that theme. he's going to go with it. he's not going to divert from it. in fact, as you just noted, he's going to announce that he's going to bring this really bad hollywood, terrible movie set to cities near you. he's going to make it happen, because that is going to stoke the fear that he needs in people to think the only way that they can get law and order is from him. as tom friedman points out, this is really a page right out of the textbook for tyrants. historically, what dictators and authoritarian regimes do when their people turn against them is to pit their own people against each other.

and that's what he wants to see happen. make no mistake about it. reports -- i heard a report this morning on fox news of a trump surrogate claiming that the entire city of portland has been decimated. that's not true. we heard similar things about seattle. and that kind of autonomous zone, that they had taken the whole city away, when really it was five or six blocks. the facts matter. the other thing that matters is i want to make an appeal to the federal agents that are on the street of portland and about to deploy to other cities. i was a federal agent for 25 yea years. when i led fbi offices, one of the things i had to make certain of that i wasn't asking agents to do something that would put them in legal jeopardy and take them outside the scope of their employment. i'm here to appeal to those dhs agents today and say there will one day be a legal reckoning for what you are being asked to do. and you are compelled to stand

by the rule of law and the constitution. you are operating outside the scope of your employment when you take people off the street, nowhere near federal buildings, when you don't tell them they're under arrest, when you don't tell them your name and your agency, and when you release them, because you know you have no probable cause to arrest them. there will be a reckoning. you need to get your professional liability insurance paid up. >> let me ask you, let me follow up on the legal and the professional insurance thread. they are dressed in fatigues. general millie took a whole lot of heat for dressing like he was in fallujah, not downtown washington, d.c. i mean, are the federal agents, do you think they're aware that they've been cast and right down to the wardrobe that they've been asked to wear on these raids? >> these are bright young men and women who took an oath, went through training. they understand that they are becoming dupes and bit players in a much larger horror flick,

that they ultimately will regret being a part of. they understand that their leader, the acting dhs secretary, chad wolf, has zero experience in law enforcement, legality, and lawful authority. they know who's leading them. they know what this is about. and eventually, their leadership, their unions are going to come down and say, this has got to stop. and, you know, it's ironic. we're going through a movement here of reforming the police, questioning excessive use of force, and we're getting not only pushback, but the exact opposite from federal law enforcement. what we actually need is what the mayor of chicago has incited. which is, we need the investigative powers of federal agencies like the fbi, atf, dea, who will take down street gangs, who will stop the gang flow. that's where the help should be coming from the federal government. not from secret police who on the identify themselves and won't have badge numbers

displayed. >> you know, sam, i want to pick up on your political point. and this is just a frame of reference for i think more voters in the middle or perhaps people in the trump coalition four years ago that are having second doubts. these are the two republican heads of the agency that's now been asked with policing the streets of american cities, talking about how they view this move on the part of the president. tom ridge and mike chertoff. let's watch and talk about it on the other side. >> the reports that i read about roving around on the street and stopping people and taking them down, strike me as going beyond that authority. >> the department was established to protect america from the ever-present threat of global terrorism. it was not established tonight the president's personal militia. it would be a cold day in hell before i would consent to a unilateral, uninvited intervention in one of my

citie cities. >> a cold day in hell has arrived, it would appear, sam stein. >> yeah, those comments raise two points. one is just how far trump has extended his legal authorities here, which appear to be well beyond where they were designed to go. but the second part is sort of a commentary on the structures of governance, right? like, we created this department in the wake of 9/11. we didn't fully grasp how far it could be stretched. and certainly having people like chad wolf there, who was an acting secretary, who really doesn't have much in terms of institutional knowledge of this stuff, guiding us, it goes to show you that a lot of this was sort of given to the whims of the people who we put in power. they can stretch the authorities. i'm struggling to understand what the sort of legal resources are. now, frank suggested a few, but we aren't seeing -- it's tough

to imagine how this gets resolved in terms of a firm constitutional pushback, especially when you have a very compliant republican-controlled senate here. and it raises serious questions about whether we gave too much authority to the secretary of that department and what you can do to rein in these types of impulses when they are displayed by a president who clearly has authoritarian impulses, but also wants to put on a political show. >> it's such a good point and i want to bring into the conversation oregon democratic senator, jeff merkley on exactly that line of questioning. senator, thank you so much for spending some time with us. just pick up on sam stein's question. i mean, you heard tom ridge there saying, it was an agency created to protect the american homeland from threats of terrorism in the months after 9/11. it is now being used by donald trump to among other things create a b-roll arkchive for hi

campaign advertising. >> we have an authoritarian president out of control. he's long admired the tactics of putin and duterte and erdogan and other strongmen around the world and has brought their tactics to the streets of our country. i was thinking at a recent protest that involved a march from capitol hill up to the fonte plaza can across from the white house, people were chanting, which is what democracy looks like, and they were referring to the peaceful protest of citizens expressing their feelings before the most powerful place in the world, the white house. and i thought, it's not quite what democracy looks like, because the president had shut down l'enfant plaza so the protesters were way out of sight of the white house. and it was shortly after that that he put unmarked police on the steps of the lincoln monument. i thought, that's not what democracy looks like. and then he proceeded to have his team use flash bangs and impact munitions and tear gas to

clear people, peacefully protesting, so he could stand on the steps of the church with a bible. each time i thought, this won't continue. the reaction will be so fierce. and then he sends his team to portland, unmarked folks in war uniforms, camouflage, patrolling the streets grabbing protesters at random, throwing them into unmarked vans, sweeping them away, not telling them who they are, not having reasonable cause for stopping them in the first place. and then we see, for example, a man in white sweatshirt saying, i'm a navy veteran, and two officers are beating him with batons while another one proceed to pepper spray his face. and he's just standing there. and i'm thinking, peaceful protester, american veteran. wanted to come down and say, are you honoring your oath to the constitution, and they're

beating the hell out of him. and we have another protester who is holding a radio above his head and you can see in the video, he's just standing there across the street from trump's deployed forces and he's shot square between the eyes, right in the forehead with an impact munition, put him in critical condition in the hospital, with a fractured skull. and i thought, well, that's not what democracy looks like. this is secret policing brought to america. it's why i've introduced the no secret police in america act within the last 48 hours, over 40 senators have signed on to it. we have to respond. and we need to enable this type of bill to be debated and voted on, on the floor of the u.s. senat senate. >> senator, since we've been chatting, donald trump has announced that he will expand his secret police force to patrol the streets of both chicago and albuquerque. i think a lot of people in this country wonder if there isn't more that could be done, if congress doesn't as a co-equal

branch of government have some ability to file a legal challenge to the way they're going about, under their purview, they say they're simply protecting federal property. there are federal buildings in just about every county in this country. i mean, what can you -- have you picked up the phone and called the secretaries of dhs or the attorney general of the white house? >> i have talked to leaders both at the customs and border protection and at the u.s. marshals, sent letters with a whole host of responses and inquiries in partnership with my colleagues from oregon to the homeland security secretary, to the u.s. attorney general. we have asked the igs of both departments to investigate. but when you ask, what can we do? we can pass a law that says, you can protect federal assets, but you have to stay within the perimeter or near-perimeter

thoof assof that asset. you want to put people across the streets or sweeping streets, you can't do that. you would have to have an invitation from a mayor or a governor and they would have to be identified with where they came from, you have to be identified both with a unique identifier, it's going to be held accountable, and you would have to announce to america, how many people are you sending from where and for what purpose. all of these things are standard practice of the past. they indicate the distinction between how you operate in a republic, a we the people republic and how you operate under an authoritarian dictatorship. and right now we have the practices of an authoritarian dictatorship. >> senator, would you consider either working with your colleagues in the house since that chamber is under democratic control or try to initiate some sort of bipartisan effort to hold congressional hearings or do just that, talk about the law, bring before you the

cabinet secretaries, i guess they're all acting at dhs, and try to query or push on what the parameters are? because i think a lot of people fear that between now and november, this kind of behavior will only grow more brazen, not less. >> absolutely. and the answer to your question is yes and yes. i have talked to a number of my colleagues across the aisle in the last few days. several of them have expressed a lot of support for no secret police in america. they do not like this overreach of the federal government. they do not like the secrecy and the tactics, but they're also saying they're not ready to sign on to a bill, because we're in the context of their nominee being the current president of the united states. inch we would have their support in that vote, but i tried to get the amendment considered last night and the republican leadership stood up and objected to consideration of it in the senate floor. it is absolutely a failure of the senate not to be able to have issues like this put before

it. it means, not only are we not allowed to express our opinion, but we're not accountable to the public. i reached out to the house. the house had already locked up the defense authorization act. we're going to do everything possible to get into the next bill in the house, the next bill in the senate. we cannot silent abo t your app president had announced just a few days ago, he said, i'm thinking about doing this in philadelphia and baltimore and new york and chicago and detroit and oakland, all places with democratic local officials. and it is a campaign stage. it is, i will create a riot or a disturbance through greenlegreg practices and present myself as the person to resolve those riots. i have been putting it in those non-poetic terms, but i appreciate thomas friedman

saying assist wag the dog strategy by the byte. we have agree it, we have stop it. it's just one extraordinary violation of not just the norms, but the whole vision of our constitution and our rights to assemble and to protest and to steak. >> snar murafter the break, as donald trump resurrects his daily coronavirus briefings amid a worsening pandemic, his top disease expert anthony fauci is speaking frankly about his relationship with the president. plus, as the election draws near, more evidence that donald trump is already seeking to undermind his results. stacy abram will join us for a conversation about that and much, much more.

and president obama and joe biden back together again and unleashed.

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dr. anthony fauci, the most-trusted member of the white house coronavirus task force, was not present at yesterday's coronavirus task force briefing. neither was any other public health official. and dr. fauci seems to be getting tired of trump shutting out science, as the country grapples with the deadly pandemic thaz already taken the lives of 140,000 americans. in a revealing new interview with "new york times" opinion columnist, jennifer senior, you can almost hear fauci's exasperation. senior asks, if you were an executive for the day, what

lever would you pull, to which he responds, but jennifer, would you want me to say something that's directly contrary to what the president is doing? that's not helpful. then all of a sudden you don't hear from me for a while. i've just been doing this for so long and i'm trying to do my best to get the message across without being overtly at odds, okay? the only thing i can do is to get out there with whatever notoriety or recognition i have and say, these are the four or five things. please pay attention to them and if we do that, i feel confident we'll turn this around. fauci's words take on more urgency as the virus continues its surge. yesterday, the daily number of coronavirus deaths in the u.s. topped 1,000. it's the first time it's hit that mark since may 29th. nine states announced new records of hospitalizations yesterday, including alabama, texas, and california. joining us now, infectious disease expert and director of the texas children's hospital center for vaccine development,

our friend, dr. peter hotez. dr. hotez, first, you started something around here and across a lot of shows on the network, around the disinformation that's been circulating in our politics around the pandemic. and i wonder what you make of the fact that dr. fauci is now at the point of almost pleading with a journalist not to make him answer a question, because he's not going to lie, that would put him at odds with donald trump and it's around these same issues that we keep debating, mask wearing, social distancing, and shutdowns. >> yeah, i think what you're seeing is the fact that tony knows exactly what needs to be done to help the country actually save the country, because we're going down such a terrible path, and yet, if he's just puts it all out there in a very direct way, like i do, and i can do it because i'm a medical school professor and i have that freedom to do it, he doesn't. if he just puts it out there,

you know what happens, he'll get marginalized and he'll no longer be able to engage the white house, the oval office, and the president. and as i've been saying the last few months, tony's a patriot in the end. he's willing to put aside he has ego and other things in order to do what needs to be done. it's a very tough balance and i know he's very frustrated. but he's also one of the most optimistic people i've ever known and he always uses this term cautious optimism, and that's the word of the day. he's trying to keep the white house focused on what needs to be done and not spin off into crazy chinese communist party conspiracy theories like we heard from peter navarro or secretary pompeo, going after the world health organization, trying to keep them focused and do what meeneeds to be done. >> and despite all of that,

despite the fact that we're in month five, despite the fact that somebody, i don't know, got the president, i guess, on script finally to say to the country what most americans seems to already know, that things are going to get worse before there's any chance of them getting better, the federal government's position, the white house position is still to force every public school in the country back to in-person, full-capacity learning in the fall. in your view, is there any cautiously optimistic scenario where that is a reality? >> yeah whereby it's a reality in some of the northern new england states, where that i have done the hard work to bring down the transmission of the virus, but that's the exception. across the southern united states, there's no way you can open schools in many communit s communities, simply because there's too much virus transmission. if you do that, we know what's going to happen. teachers will get sick within a week or two, as will cafeteria workers, as will bus drivers, as

will parents and the whole thing will collapse yet again. so it's again, the white house sort of being in denial as to how massive this resurgence is. and in denial of the fact that a quarter of the world's covid-19 -- new covid-19 cases are in the southern united states. and so i think what tony is doing and others is we're trying to convince the white house to make a federal plan. we actually heard a hint of it yesterday. the president did mention the words federal strategy or something along those lines. maybe there's a glimmer of hope. i put something out there a couple of days ago, saying what i think needs to be done. so we'll see. he's going to speak again today and in a few days and throughout the week and maybe finally something along those lines would materialize. hope springs eternal. >> it feels like peak 2020 to say we hope here in month five that there's finally a federal

strategy. dr. peter hotez, we always appreciate your frank assessments and your straight talk on all of this. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. after the break, donald trump's latest scheme to punish undocumented immigrants. that and much, much more in our conversation with stacey abrams. that's next if.

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>> congressman john lewis was an icon and apparently a great dancer, as well. this video has been circulating on twitter since his death on friday. that was him back in 2018 in the lead up to the midterm elections at an event for none other than our next guest, stacey abrams. we are so happy to get to talk to stacey abrams, former georgia gubernatorial candidate, and she happens to be the founder of fair fight, which works to fight voter suppression and fair count, which works to ensure an accurate count in the census, and both directly threatened by donald j. trump. stacey, thank you so much for spending some time with us. i've watched that video of congressman lewis for a few times and i didn't realize it was at an event for you. just your thoughts on his body of work and how much he inspires and informs what you're working on now. >> i'm honored to live in the

district that he represented. i'm humbled that i was able to call him friend. whether it was the work i did on voter registration. there was never a good fight where you couldn't count on john lewis to be standing right there with you. but more than that, he was a joyous spirit who loved this country and loved humanity. this is a grave loss. i know that today, reverend ct vivian lay in state a georgia capitol and i want to acknowledge his passing, but certainly my heart is broken. i lost a friend. stacey, there's no mistaking that it's not just your heart, but your body of work that very much is informed by and inspired by his contributions. talk about doing what he did and what you're doing at a time when the current sitting incumbent american president is seeking to delegitimize the results of election that hasn't happened

yet. >> it's more than just delegitimizing the results of an election. donald trump is trying to rig the future. and one of the things i learn from john lewis is your position is not what matters, it's the work that you do. when i did not become governor in 2018, i didn't have the opportunity to just wallow in my loss. my responsibility is taught to me by john lewis, and as i was raised by my parents, robert and carolyn abrams. my job was to get to work fixing the issues as i saw them. and i knew that in 2020, the two cornerstone issues for our democracy would be making sure we have a fair election and a fair count in the census. so i created fair fight to fight for voter protection and fair count to fight for an accurate census. and what donald trump is doing while he tries to discredit vote by mail, he is attempting to undermine our democracy and the power of the vote, but what he did yesterday to undermine our census has a ten-year life span.

this is going to cost states money. money that they need to recover from covid. texas will lose $5.5 billion if there's an undercount of undocumented immigrant es in th census. georgia and arizona will each lose more than $1 billion. that's real money and real lives that will be harmed and he's doing it because he knows he's going to lose and he's doing his level best to burn down the house before he leaves. >> and there's -- at this point in his presidency, there is no mistaking that he clearly views his mandate as governing only for the people who voted for him. just the optics and the use of federal law enforcement agencies in what he describes as democratic-run cities, the deliberate effort to deprive the counts in states that are trending away from him and

towards democrats. i have been asking this question for the last four days and ask this of you. how do you protect against a president with so much power in his hands and such clear and stated and obvious and declared objectives when it comes to both voter suppression and the census. >> first, you call for the courage of conviction from both sides of the aisle, particularly from republicans who took the same oath of office to protect the democracy of america, to protect our nation, by undermining the census, this isn't simply about a count, it is how we allocate $1.5 trillion. but it's also how we reapportion political power, and what he's attempting to do with this executive order is blatantly unconstitutional, but also a distraction. his goal is not simply to undermine the count, but to scare people out of being

counted. and right now, latino, black, and native american communities are all 10% behind white communities when it comes to being counted by the census. as i laid out earlier, that's billions of dollars stripped away from those communities at a moment when they desperately need it. and when you think about the right to voter, voter presentation is not simply about saying you can vote, it's being able to vote. and what he is attempting to do with the scare tactics by vote by mail, he wants to undermine confidence in our elections. i look to folks who stood for office to say, it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on, democracy is not partisan. we may choose our leaders by partisanship, but our system should be nonpartisan and should serve everyone. and i'm just -- i'm anxious about the silence that i'm hearing. and i think that now is this moment where governor rick scott, now a senator, understands that if florida loses $3 billion a year for the next decade, that is devastating.

texas, john cornyn needs to know that he is suborning stripping $5 billion away from his state. we have two folks running for senate in the state of georgia and we have had to cut education by $$950 million and they're going to permanently impair the education of children if they do not stand up and say they're standing for the people of georgia and not simply for their partisan goals. >> do you feel that there's some suspense that people like john cornyn and rick scott might decide not to subvert their fealty to donald trump for their citizens? because i haven't seen any evidence that they've done that yet. do you think there's a chance they might? >> like john lewis and my minister parents, i have hope, i have faith in humanity. >> well, god bless you. as a former member of their party, i don't have any hope anymore. but god bless you. i want to ask you about the man

you ran against. because he's in a small little club, speaking of fealty of donald trump, of republican governors closely aligned with donald trump, who swung open their states that you had to have 14 days of declining cases before doing so. and governor kemp opened up tattoo parlors and barbershops and other things with obvious impediments to social distancing and the state is paying the price. what do you have to say to your quents democrat do you want them to take a deep breath and stay safe or ignore their governor? or what is your message to the folks who would have been your constituents, had you prevailed? >> i would say, follow the leaders. and right now, the only leaders we have in our state are at the local level. brian kemp has abdicated his responsibility. he has become the suggester in chief. this is a man who has overseen 136,000 cases of covid.

more than 3,000 people have died, disproportionately black folks in the state of georgia and he has refused to take any action other than a flyaround saying, i hope you do what might make sense. so i say to the citizens of georgia, follow your leaders, do not follow the governor, because he is leading us down the wrong path. >> and you are out in front on two issues that i think we'll be talking about every day, for the foreseeable future. so i hope you'll come back and i hope we can consider this conversation one that is to be continued. >> it would be my honor. i would like to just add one more thing. as we think about john lewis, i hope we hold to his ethos, which is that we don't ever stop fighting. and even though there are those who have seemed to take the wrong path, our responsibility as americans is to resort our

american citizens to do what's right, whether they want to or not. and there's why i created these organizations, not simply to have a pulpit, to have the conversation, but to make sure that we have folks in the choir who are singing out that we have to protect our democracy from all who would assail it, foreign or domestic. i think the other important thing that the work of affords you is the opportunity to remind people like me who start these headlines all day, every day not to lose hope. i appreciate that on a personal level. and we want to mention your book "our time is now," where you offer a blueprint to end voter suppression and empower our citizens and take back kourn, stacey abrams was our guest. thank you so much to her spending m time wisome time wit. up next, joe biden and barack obama in the very same room talking shop. we'll show it to you after the break talking shop we'll show it to you after the brea - [narrator] the shark vacmop combines powerful suction

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. i don't understand his inability to get a sense of what people are going through. he just can't -- he can't relate in any way. >> well, and one of the things that i have always known about you, joe, it's the reason why i wanted you to be my vice president and the reason why you were so effective. it all starts with being able to relate. if you can sit down with a family and see your own family in them and the struggles that

you've gone through or your parents went through or your kids are going through, if you can connect those struggles to somebody else's struggles. >> what a sight. for the very first time in the 2020 election cycle, joe biden and former president obama in the same room. and that was just a taste of a larger conversation that will be released tomorrow and a sign that we are likely to be seeing much more from trump's predecessor as the election nears. "the new york times" today reporting that biden and obama, quote, talk on the phone frequently, as mr. obama ramps up his involvement in a campaign he sees essential not only to the country's future, but a defense of his own legacy. joining our conversation, associate editor for realclear politics, ab stoddard, and pulitzer prize-winning "washington post" columnist, eugene robinson. ab, it is no secret at this point, the two humans who trigger trump the most are those two men. joe biden, for whom he was impeached, to try to knock out

of the race and his predecessor, president obama, who he tweets about incessantly. >> right. and it will be really interesting to see on a day when the president is really trying to resist tweeting what happen after the -- on thursday, and there's a big online response to it, of course. and we'll hear about how many people logged in, and then there's been a lot of excitement around a fund-raiser they already held together. we obviously expect, as you said, president obama to surface more. president trump believes that president obama is his ultimate foil. sometimes he leaves a bit for hillary clinton as well, but he will no doubt taking whacks at president obama as he steps up his role in joe biden's campaign. it was very well done. very catchy the way they show up in different elevators in their masks, so people will be definitely buzzing about it.

it's a tv production, and nothing gets the president going more than exciting television. it will be interesting to see his response. >> that is such a good point. eugene, a.b., as usual, is absolutely right. you always think you can control the architecture of so many things, but you can't. in so many ways, a return to any scrap or shred or semblance of what we had during the last eight years sounds pretty darn good to just about everyone these days s. >> it does. that i think is the real danger for president trump in president obama's, you know, reappearance, and his -- mashed be hi continuing role i think in the campaign, is that it reminds people that there was a time when there wasn't a sociopath living in the white house, when

things were not breathlessly crazy every single day. when it wasn't exhausting just to read the newspaper or turn on the news, or look on your phone, it was -- it was actually comforting, to know that we were led by people who made sense. so i think the contrast, just the manner, just the affect of these two men versus donald trump to a lot of voters is a powerful thing. >> eugene, i remember when the sort of nickname "no drama obama" circulated. i think of americans of all political persuasion could be pick a theme song, it would be called no drama. the idea we wouldn't all trade some sort of steadiness, and

certainly, not having, as you said, following a schizophrenic stock market-like presidency, is really turning out to be an advantage for a candidate who a lot of people thought was trying to bring us back to another era. it seems that president obama can remind voters of that every single day between now and election day. >> i think he can. i think that's one reason you haven't seen the nickname sleepy joe out of president trump as much recently, because people are probably saying, sleepy? that's okay. i could do with some sleep. it really is -- you race to the end of the week and look, and it's only tuesday, right? because a week's worth of stuff has happened. so i think the idea of no-drama obama was at times used as a pejorative. he was seen as sort of cool and

unemotional, this and that, but how sweet it looks in the rear-view mirror when donald trump is president of the united states. i mean, just look at yesterday. just look at today. look at tomorrow i'm sure. >> a.b., i want to get you on the record here as we sit together in july. i think we all learned four years ago our predictions are not 'em worth the napkins when we used to eat at restaurants before we were all stuck at home because of a pandemic. what do you see as factors that either have the potential to move either of these men up or down on the axis? >> you mean biden and trump? >> yeah. what do you see this election turning on? i think it's undeniable the trump that showed up ideas was a better version of trump than who sat across from chris wallace and was tweeting how he had to

do the interview. he's a ridiculous, that's a known known, but in his coalition, he's obviously now graded on a curve. so i wonder what you think this election turns on. >> i truly believe the pandemic sealed the election to the pandemic president president a long time ago. i hope terrific things happen like a vaccine and huge he economic rebound. that would definitely help the president's case if it were to take hold in november. but we were reminded of yesterday six months is hard to earn, and earn back responsibility that you squandered for six months straight. we'll see polls on that in a few weeks, but if you do have a plan, no matter how many briefings you hold, it's not going to change. unless things change in terms of that, and really the developments happen, biden's

hold on the polls is really because people trust him more to govern us out of this. >> a.b. stoddard and eugene robinson, thank you so much. we want to tell you about a life well lived. jordan was beaming. he had good news to share. finished spring 2020 semester with all a's, he is. the 19-year-old had just earned a perfect 4.0 at tallahassee community college. he even made the school's president's list. just that alone is quite an accomplishment. that's only half the story. he was working his way through school. he had a job as a custodian at his old elementary school. he was smart, gifted. hits friends couldn't say enough about him. according to "the tallahassee democrat" he held down leadership positions at local youth organizations. such a bright, bright future and

sat story. he died of the coronavirus a few days ago. we're thinking about his family this afternoon during what must be an extraordinarily painful time. thank you for watching, and for letting us into your homes. or coverage continues with chuck todd after a quick break. s withk todd after a quick break they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. almost done. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad.

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