we're one, one people and one love. thank you very much. [ applause ] >> two political parties can't agree on a damn thing most days. today the leadership led them, and they followed. standing up to applaud a man who so many tried to keep down for so long. the late congressman john lewis of georgia. that is our broadcast for this monday night as we start off a new week. thank you so very much for being here with us. on behalf of all my colleagues at the networks of nbc news, good night. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. rachel has a well deserved night off. we've got a lot to get to after what's been another very busy day. with coronavirus cases exploding across the country, we learned today that yet another trump

administration official has tested positive for covid-19. trump national security adviser robert o'brien is now the highest-ranking white house official yet to be infected. with the virus continuing to spread unchecked even at the highest levels of our government, it is no wonder that we're still dealing with the economic fallout from this pandemic. nearly 30 million americans are still unemployed. their supplemental unemployment benefits are set to expire this weekend. for some, they have received their last check. and yet the latest economic relief bill being proposed by republicans would slash those benefits, presumably at a time when they are needed the most. we're going to talk with congresswoman karen bass about where negotiations go from here. karen bass, by the way, is also on joe biden's vp shortlist, and the two of them were together today. so a lot to talk to her about. plus, with just 99 days left until the election, there are now new questions about what will happen if president trump

refuses to accept the results on november 3rd. turns out that there's a whole gro group of people who are literally gaming out what would happen in that senatorcenario. the whole thing is very bracing. we'll have more on that later in the show, so there is a lot to cover. and it comes after what has already been a truly historic day in our nation's capital. we call things historic a lot, but this really was. this afternoon the body of the late congressman john lewis returned to washington, d.c. for the last time. his funeral procession highlighting the trajectory of a life well lived from a young civil rights leader to a veteran lawmaker deemed the conscience of congress. it paused at the martin luther king jr. memorial, a nod to the man who helped inspire his early activism a activism. it passed by the lincoln memorial where in 1963, lewis was the youngest speaker at the

march on washington. finally making its way through the newly minted black lives matter plaza, where just last month he made his final appearance in support of the movement. finally, the body of congressman lewis returned to capitol hill where he spent more than 30 years in service. a military honor guard carried his casket up into the rotunda where he was laid to rest upon the same platform, the same catafalque that once held the body of president abraham lincoln. he was honored by supreme court justice sonia sotomayor and vice president mike pence, as well as vice president joe biden and his wife dr. jill biden. but for all the tributes that were paid today, one moment in particular was the most poignant. that was when congressman john lewis' own words echoed through the rotunda. >> 1957, i met rosa park.

i met martin luther king jr. and these two individuals inspired me to get in the way, to get in trouble. you must find a way to get in the way. you must find a way to get in trouble, good trouble, necessary trouble. >> you must find a way to get in the way. you must find a way to get into trouble, good trouble, necessary trouble. tonight despite the heat, thousands have lined up to pay their final respects to the congressman. it's a fitting tribute for a man who was filled with such moral clarity, especially when it came to the fights that needed to be waged to advance this country. as he's being laid to rest, many of those battles continue to be waged. we learned this weekend that fight for change has been far from perfect. protests continued in portland this weekend where demonstrators have been gathering nightly now for two months. as has been the case night after night, the protests began peacefully. the wall of moms, a group of hundreds of women who have

gathered to together, they've banded together literally to form a human shield for protesters, were once again on site, as were a group of dads, many armed with leaf blowers, which are effective at blowing tear gas away from the crowds. this weekend they were joined by a group of military vets. that show of unit once again turned violent last night as some in the crowd launched fireworks at federal agents. the agents responded with tear gas and flashbangs. with these standoffs getting more tense each and every day, "the washington post" is now reporting that the trump administration plans to send even more federal agent toss that city and to other cities around the country. although late tonight the mayor of portland said that he is calling for an immediate meeting with the department of homeland security to discuss a cease-fire -- a cease-fire and removal of heightened federal forces from portland. 175 miles away in seattle on saturday, demonstrations began as a show of solidarity with

portland's protesters. but police say it devolved into a riot with dozens of people arrested and nearly 60 officers injured. this comes amid news that federal agents have been deployed to seattle as well. the situation has left local leaders outraged and worried that protesters are playing right into the president's hands. quoting from "the new york times" yesterday, mayor jenny durkan of seattle said in an interview sunday that the city is in the middle of a self-fulfilling prophecy with protesters infuriated by the federal presence in portland, smashing windows and setting fires, the very images of anarchy that the president has warned about. there is no question that the actions in portland have escalated things, not just in seattle but nationwide, she said. in fact, it seems that the administration's actions have lit a match in city after city. it wasn't just portland and seattle on edge this weekend. in los angeles, protesters and police clashed outside of federal courthouses this weekend. in louisville, opposing militia groups faced off at a

demonstration in that city. a protester in austin, texas, was shot and killed by a motorist who had a confrontation with the demonstrators. we're in a tinderbox at the moment, and it's against this backdrop that the top law enforcement official in the country, attorney general william barr, is set to testify before congress for the first time in over a year. tomorrow morning barr is expected to be pressed on the administration's response to the wave of protests that have engulfed the country since the police-involved death of george floyd. at the exact same time that that hearing is going on, we're expecting to hear from a national guard officer who was called in dpurlg the protests in washington, d.c.'s lafayette square last month. according to test that was just made public today, he is supposed to tell lawmakers tomorrow morning that police moved suddenly on the d.c. protesters, clearing the way without adequate warning before president trump's staged photo op in front of st. john's church. and he's expected to call out those aggressive tactics.

according to a portion of that testimony, he will say, quote, having served in a combat zone and understanding how to assess threat environments, at no time did i feel threatened by the protesters or assess them to be violent. from my observation, those demonstrators are fellow american citizens, were engaged in the peaceful expression of their first amendment rights. yet they were subjected to an unprovoked escalation and excessive use of force, end quote. with that in mind, is it any wonder that protesters and demonstrators around the country are now skeptical of the federal forces that are being deployed to their cities? joining us now, seattle mayor jenny durkan. mayor, we appreciate you joining us. you have been watching what's been going on in portland, and you have had some of this spread to your own city. give me your impression of where things stand now and where you are with relation to the federal government and your talks with them. >> there's no question that the actions of president trump have escalated things not just in

portland but across the country. i spoke with mayors from a number of cities today to see how we could have a unified voice to plead with the president to not do what he is doing. if he continues on this course, we are prepared to take whatever legal action is necessary. we will do what we need to do to make sure that our cities can be safe. at a time when america needs healing, this president is sowing division, and it is having really devastating impacts in cities across america. >> you've actually sent a few letters. on july 22nd, you and 15 other mayors sent a letter to attorney general barr and the dhs secretary wolf, urging them to not send federal troops to u.s. cities. then today you sent another letter with five other mayors to congressional leaders, asking them to take action. you say, we call on congress to swiftly pass legislation to block the administration from sending unidentified federal agents to operate with impunity in our cities. you had a conversation with dhs

secretary wolf, i believe it was thursday, in which he told you that he wouldn't send federal agents without consulting you or the governor. >> exactly right. he said that he was not going to be surging agents to seattle, that he would tell myself and our chief of police if that changed. and literally moments after we hung up, we learned that they indeed had sent additional federal agents here. i want to point out that both democrat and republican former heads of the department of homeland security have said this is the wrong way to go, including former governor tom ridge. this is not a republican or democrat issue. this is about america and the proper role of law enforcement. i hate to say it, but it looks like this president is doing a dress rehearsal for martial law. sending in federal forces to take over police duties in city after city for political purposes. it is frightening, and it's

making things worse. it has not improved public safety. it has decreased public safety. >> one of the things that you tweeted on friday, you said regardless of the president's threats, residents can and should continue to demonstrate peacefully and make their voices heard. but we cannot pretend that his comments are just bluster. what do you mean? it almost sounds like a warning, that you have the first amendment. you should use it. but the president means business? >> i think that's exactly right. i think one thing that this president has shown is that when he threatens division, he follows through on it. and we've seen in portland not only have they not taken a step to de-escalate, reports are now they're going to send more agents, possibly hundreds of agents. in a city of that size for a courthouse that is just a block, they are having hundreds of agents. and we've seen night after night after night, the series of violent confrontations between the protesters -- some of the

protesters and the federal response. we don't want to have that kind of fight. and i think one of the best things we could do in america is to stop giving the president what he wants. i think that we want there to be protests. they make us better as a nation. we are -- our country was born out of protest. but at the same time we want to make sure that those protests remain peaceful and that they don't overpower the really important message of black lives matter and the need to really dismantle systemic racism not just in policing but in every institution of government. that's what we need to be focused on is the hard, substantive work that we have to do. i truly believe that we will get more peace in the streets when we have more justice in the systems. but we need to be able to focus our energies on building that. >> the federal administration, the president and his people are calling these protesters rioters

and arsonists, and they're saying that cities like yours cannot handle them. is that true? >> it's not true. look, there are individuals as we saw in seattle this weekend and as we've seen in portland and other cities who are very focused on property destruction and causing and inciting conflict with police or with the federal authorities. but we've also seen millions of people turn out in the streets of america, raising their voices and challenging our government, including me and our government, to be better. and first amendment rights have to be protected, and there's a balance that police will have to strike to make sure that they can protect public safety, not see the kind of destruction that we saw in seattle this weekend and last week, but we had weeks of piece eace in seattle. we had really been focused on the hard, substantive change. then when portland started to escalate, things escalated in

seattle. and person after person when interviewed by the media on saturday was asked why they were there. they said they were there because of what the president was doing with federal authority. we need to stop that cycle, and the best way to stop that is for him to give cities the help they need and the help we need right now is we need people to have economic relief and not have their unemployment cut. we need help on covid because we are running out of testing supplies. if you want to help cities, that's the way to help us. but sowing division will not help any city in america, and it won't help america at large. >> mayor, i appreciate your time tonight. you've got a lot of work in your city, so i appreciate that you've taken time to talk to our audience. mayor jenny durkan of seattle, thank you. coming up tonight, we will be talking with congresswoman karen bass. she's on the shortlist to be joe biden's running mate and tonight the two were spotted together walking out after paying their respects to congressman john

lewis. that testimony i was telling you about tomorrow morning to clear away protesters so that the president could walk to the church for a photo op. that test comes again from an officer in the d.c. army national guard. in his prepared remarks, major adam demarco says his understanding was that he and the other guard members were there, quote, to respect the demonstrators' first amendment rights. quote, the events i witnessed at lafayette square on the evening of june 1 were deeply disturbing to me and to fellow national guardsmen, end quote. mayor demarco says he regards his testimony as fulfilling his oath to support and defend the constitution as an extension of his public service. tonight we can report that this national guard officer, still serving, will testify as a protected whistle-blower. quote, major demarco is appearing tomorrow under the military whistle-blower protection akd. his commitment is to country above all, and his decision to speak publicly is patriotism at

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this lunch didn't happen pre-covid. these photos were taken less than two weeks ago during a trip that our national security adviser took to europe. no masks, no social distancing. hey, can you pass the bread basket? and it's perhaps because this photographic evidence is here our national security adviser, failing to follow basic public health advice, that it's not totally shocking to hear that he tested positive for coronavirus today. national security adviser robert o'brien is the highest-ranking official in the united states government to have been infected with coronavirus. the white house says mr mr. o'brien's experiencing only mild symptoms, and he's self-isolating at home. they also say he didn't expose the president or the vice president. but mr. o'brien does join the ever growing list of officials and staffers in regular close contact with the president who have come down with the virus. and by this point, the white house's seemingly cavalier behavior toward protecting themselves from infection is less than surprising. i mean here was the president's

top economic adviser on the white house lawn today, talking to reporters with his nose popping over the top of his mask. that's not how you mask. the mask sliding down the face of the president's economic adviser is perhaps a kind of a metaphor for the white house's approach to the economic free fall that the country is in right now because of the pandemic. tonight democratic leaders in congress sat down with the white house officials to open formal talks about the next coronavirus economic recovery bill. the details are being worked out, but what is becoming clear is that the new republican recovery bill does not include extending the $600 a week federal unemployment boost that 30 million unemployed americans have been collecting for months. those benefits are set to expire this weekend with millions of people out of work, relying on that federal unemployment boost, republicans are proposing slashing the enhanced unemployment benefits to $200 a week instead of $600 a week. with the spread of coronavirus continuing, with states starting to shut down businesses again,

the economic fallout for millions of americans is not getting any better. so why is the republican relief plan -- why is it operating under the assumption that things are getting better? joining us now, congresswoman karen bass. she's a democrat from california. she is the chair of the congressional black caucus. she's also on the judiciary committee, which will be holding a hearing with attorney general william barr tomorrow morning. congresswoman, thank you for being here. i always appreciate your time. but this is a very, very important time. this is a very important time. so many americans have relied upon this federal boost to unemployment. it is over already for a number of americans, and the republicans are planning to replace that with $200 despite the fact that millions remain unemployed. what does the future look like for you and the negotiations between congress and the white house about this? >> well, i think it's going to be very important that we hold fast because their entire premise is that the reason why people are not going back to work is because they're paid too

much money, which is absolutely ridiculous. i also think it is so offensive when millionaires, multi-millionaires sit around and argue over a $600 check and have no problem at all giving away billions and billions that they don't even want to be accountable for where it's going. and so unfortunately the administration still hasn't come to grips with the pandemic, but the question i have is when will the president, when will be the administration come up with a national strategy and recognize that you are not going to get the economy back to where it needs to be until you address covid. >> and that's really the issue. the president and his economic adviser, larry kudlow, who we showed there with the nose outside of the mask -- they have this belief that if you just get back to work, it's all going to be fine. yet we're seeing a lot of states setting brand-new covid records. we're seeing massive hospitalizations. we continue to see a higher death toll. it's just not that things are

going to open up on their own. there is an infection out there that for the moment in america is uncontrolled. >> denial is no strategy. what i'm concerned about, though, is that the administration just wants to act as though the virus is not there. we all go back to doing what we're going to do, and we need to accept that a number of people are going to die. but almost 150,000 people have died in the last four months, and the president never even mentions them, doesn't mention a name, doesn't mention a story. no amount of empathy. so i think he's willing to accept a lot more americans dying, maybe under the illusion that if everybody gets exposed like in herd immunity, then that's the way we're going to get past this. we have to do what the scientists tell us to do, and until we do this, we're not even going to get past the first phase of this virus. all the other countries have passed us by.

there's really no excuse for this at all. >> congresswoman, you and i talk fairly frequently, and i'd like to think that we have a nice rapport, so this is automatic wad because politico ran a story that says karen bass rises as sleeper pick to be biden's vp. i want to read you from the article. it says in recent weaks, bass has drawn emdorsmentes from a motley crew of political influencer influencers. that's high praise. a lot of people saying you're the person that the president should be -- that vice president joe biden should be thinking about as a vice presidential pick. and today you were caught chatting with him.

>> yes. well, you know, i believe that the president is -- the vice president, soon to be president, 99 days until the election, that he is going to pick the best person. he knows the job. he was in the job. and i just have to say that the women that everyone is talking about -- and no one knows who's on the list and who isn't on the list -- are phenomenal women, and any of them would be fantastic. i am going to do everything i can to make sure that he gets elected, and once elected, make sure that he's a successful president. what i'm saddened by, though, is by the time he raises his hand in january to be sworn in, i'm hoping that we don't have a quarter of a million of dead americans, and i'm hoping that our economy is not teetering on a depression. but, you know, until the republicans act, you know that they have had that bill sitting in their chamber for over two months, and they wait until

people are on the brink of suffering until they decide to go into negotiations. so there's so much that needs to be done, and i'm hoping that our country can hang on until vice president biden is sworn in as our next president. >> watching john lewis' memorial today, it was remarkable. it was hard to see because everybody had a mask on, but it just kind of looked like everybody was crying. what was going through your mind today? >> well, i will tell you that speaker pelosi, it was just an incredibly beautiful short and sweet ceremony, but i think the most impactful time was when in her presentation, she said that she was going to yield to the congressman, and all of us were sitting there wondering who was going to get up and speak. and then we heard mr. lewis' voice. and i think everybody just sat back, and it was just so powerful. like his presence was in the room in such a significant way.

and i know for myself personally, standing next to his coffin and feeling the weight of responsibility that now that he is gone, those of us that are here have got to pick up the baton and run across the finish line. and the finish line is really in 99 days. the idea that we are still fighting some of the same fights and the idea that this administration has come up with some pretty diabolical ways to suppress the vote, slowing down the mail, making people risk their lives to go vote in person instead of voting at home where it's safe, and so i don't care what tricks they come up with. in john lewis' honor, we are going to organize and turn out that vote and get our country back in shape. you know, this president has just torn us apart in so many ways, domestically and internationally. there's an awful lot that needs to be done, and i believe that

president biden will be a healer in chief, and frankly that is what we need. >> congresswoman, always a pleasure to talk to you. thank you for being with us today. congresswoman karen bass, democrat from california. still ahead tonight, a check-in on one of the nation's hardest hit coronavirus hot spots. stay with us. h us

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you're not alone. and you can help make it happen. stay 6 feet apart. wash your hands. wear a mask every time you leave your home. choose to join the fight against covid-19. do your part. slow the spread. more than 4.2 million cases nationwide and a death toll that is quickly approaching 150,000, we're preparing for another brutal week in this coronavirus pandemic. by the end of last week, "the new york times" counted 18 states that each set single-day records for new cases. you can see that sea of red flooding the south and the west of the country. as of today, "the new york times" said you can add louisiana, tennessee, oklahoma, and alaska to the map. each of them broke their previous records just yesterday.

we've seen case numbers rise in the south and southwest for weeks with few signs of letting up, and typically after a rise in infections, we eventually see more deaths. well, sure enough, saturday was the fifth consecutive day that this country saw more than 1,000 people die from this virus in one day. we haven't seen that level of death since the back half of may when the virus had started to abate in new york, which was the country's initial epicenter. well, now we're in the back half of july, and other states have already overtaken new york in total number of infections. as of this weekend, florida now has more reported coronavirus cases than new york did with more than 432,000 total infections on record. but there's one state that overtops both new york and florida. that's california. california remains at the top of the charts since passing new york's total last week. and texas is right behind those three on the list, hovering just below 400,000 cases. as of yesterday, more than 5,000 people have now died from the

virus in texas, and the pace of this death toll is not letting up. keep this in mind. it took texas ten days to go from 3,000 deaths to 4,000 deaths, and only six days to get to 5,000 deaths. even outside of hospitals, the state is having trouble handling this kind of mass casualty. according to the texas tribune, the state's funeral homes and crematoriums and cemeteries are overrun. some families are having to wait more than a week before being able to bury their loved ones, and in the hospitals, the effort to prevent april in new york level of death is becoming almost insurmountable. dr. ivan melendez. >> we knew we had all the elements of a perfect storm. we are the number one or number two every year of being the

porous area in t poorest area in the country, having the most diabetes in the country. we went from 12 people dying in 2 1/2 months to 35 people dying in one morning. 2 1/2 months versus one morning. we went from a couple of people on ventilators to close to 200. from eight people in the icus to way over 200. from 37 people at the highest in the hospital to over 1,000. so we never in our nightmare thought that during hurricane season, which one is brewing, that we would be set up for a perfect storm, a tsunami if you will. >> well, this weekend that metaphorical perfect storm got very real. hurricane hanna whipped through the texas gulf coast on sunday with high winds, rain and flooding. dr. melendez got stuck in his home with no electricity because of downed trees. he was left to decide whether to put a 58-year-old coronavirus

patient on a ventilator over the phone. when describing why being face to face with a patient for that kind of decision is important, he said, quote, you look at the people's eyes. you'll know if they're in despair. joining us now, dr. ivan melendez. dr. melendez, thank you, sir, for being with us. you situation in hidalgo county where it is poor. there is a higher than average incidence of obesity and diabetes and things that create underlying conditions. it's also a place where people can't work from home as easily. family count numbers are higher, so social distancing is harder. and people without an income are desperate to work. it really is the perfect storm. why did it get this bad? >> boy, that's a really, really good question, why it got this bad. but first of all, i am reminded that i need to thank you for you being so gracious and not

forgetting about us. our 1.2 million population of folks are still in a pretty similar situation as we were from that previous reporting. so i'm just grateful that you haven't forgotten and have come back to check in with us to let us know what is currently going on. i think that as we mentioned previously, we have all the ingredients, if you will of creating a kind of unique scenario. you speak about 1,000 people dying a day in the united states. with our relatively small population of 1.2 million, we had 50, and the rest of the country had 1,000. and so the scenario continues. i can tell you that i just got in from my rounds. i had 34 patients today. 28 were covid patients. of those 28, i estimate about 20 are just waiting to go to heaven. it just seems like we're getting one set of moribund patients and then they process them and go

through the system. then we get another group of people that have that same dire outcome. so we haven't changed. the storm was extremely impactful to us. our numbers today are way undercounted because the floods have put out even our information technology systems, and we've had some severe impact because of this 70-mile-per-hour wind and the flooding and damage to the structures that occurred. so it has gotten worse. >> i want to ask you, dr. melendez, about what happens across the border in mexico. the storm was actually more impactful there. do you know what the situation is on the other side because what you are describing in some ways is mirrored on the other side of the border. >> absolutely. absolutely, i do. and you have to remember that our population, our grandparents and our cousins and rour

colleagues, we're a large community and loving each other on both sides of the river. we don't ask for appropriate papers or documentation and we treat everyone regardless. my colleagues report, and they have sent me videos that demonstrate that some of their hospitals are a foot underwater. you see that people are pushing gurneys under a foot of water. you see complete disregard for their own personal well-being being completely wet. sometimes when we get so frustrated of the problems that we have here, during our storm we had water coming in through the electrical fixtures, water coming in through the walls as we're trying to intubate people or put central lines in. and we feel so discouraged, and yet you just take a brief pause, and you understand that just four miles south of here, their situation is -- is -- is enough to make you cry. >> dr. melendez, we will not

forget you. we will keep on coming back until you get the resources that you and the people of hidalgo county deserve. thank you, sir, for everything you are doing to save lives in america. dr. ivan melendez, thank you for your time, sir. we are now in double digits, now just 99 days to go before the november election. but what if one of the candidates running to be president doesn't accept the results? that's next. that's next. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. i wish i could shake your hand. granted. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when you start with a better that's no way to treat a dog... ...you can do no wrong. where did you learn that? the internet...

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it seems hard to believe but as of today we're now within 100 days of a general election, which falls on november 3rd. today the biden campaign rolled oilt a new ad that takes aim at the president's stumbling response to the coronavirus. the ad is part of an almost $15 million ad buy in six states that the president won in 2016 -- florida, arizona, wisconsin, michigan, north carolina, and pennsylvania. the president's failure to address the pandemic continues to hurt him in poll after poll. today the president got bad news out of north carolina.

an nbc news/marist poll finds him trailing biden by seven in that state. it followed two polls over the weekend showing trump behind in arizona and another that showed trump trailing in florida by five. florida's gone for the eventual winner in each of the last six general elections. this time around, the president has not led in polls in florida for four months now. his poor performance in surveys there actually caused the cook political report to change the state's status from the perennial place among toss-ups to lean democratic. the president and his supporters have continued to attack the polls as biased and flawed. it's one thing to trust or question political polls. it's another to cast doubt on the validity of the election itself as trump continues to do with his relentless attacks on mail-in ballots. a week ago the president told fox's chris wallace that mail-in voting would, quote, rig the election. asked if he would accept the election results, the president said, quote, i'll have to see.

over the weekend, i interviewed the national press secretary for trump's re-election campaign, who echoed the president's comments. >> democrats who are pushing for this universal mail-in voting system that all experts will tell you is rife with the opportunity for fraud, waste, for cheating. >> will the president acknowledge the decision of the american people if he doesn't win the election? >> again, if it is done properly, absolutely he will. the mail-in voting we're talking about that will be universal and rife with fraud, i'm not going to promise to you today that i'm going to abide by the election if it was fraudulent in any way. that would be absolutely foolish on my part. >> of course concerns about the president refusing to leave office are nothing new, but actual countertop exercises designed to plan what would happen in such an event, that is actually new. "the boston glob "the boston globe" reports a bipartisan group gathered in secret to game out a contested legend. in june, the group, former

government and military officials and academics why let i convened online, grappling with questions that seemed less farfetched by the day. what if president trump refuses to concede a loss, and how far could he go to preserve his power? each scenario involved a different election outcome. an unclear result on election day that looked increasingly like a biden win as more ballots were counted. a clear biden win in the popular vote and the electoral college. an electoral college win for trump with biden winning the popular vote by five percentage points. and a narrow electoral college and popular vote victory for biden. organizer rosa brooks telling the globe, quote, all of our scenarios ended in both street-level violence and political impasse. joining us now, rosa brooks. she served for two years in the obama administration as a counselor to the undersecretary of defense for policy. she's now a co-organizer of the transition integrity project. ms. brooks, thank you for being

here. this has become a question that has gone from people saying it's ridiculous to talk about, clearly it's not up to donald trump to accept or not accept the results of an election. but people are now wondering what are the actual mechanics? what happens after election day, which by the way might not be like other election days because of the number of absentee ballots, because of coronavirus, and the number of mail-in ballots. in your esteemed opinions, in these consultations you've had, what happens? >> nothing very good happened, and i should say at the get-go that our exercises were not exactly secret. anything that gets covered by "the boston globe" isn't much of a secret. but what we were trying to do is get a group of people together to talk about some of the what-ifs, not to make predictions, and i want to be clear on that. these are not predictions at all. these are looking at some of the possible worst-case scenarios that might come about. and in the scenarios that we looked at, i think you mentioned

the ones we looked at. we looked at a narrow biden win, a big biden win, a trump win, and a situation like the election of 2000 in which results would be unknown for an extended period of time. and almost all of those situations, as you said, ended in essentially a kind of impasse, because wa we saw -- and again, these are exercises. they don't predict the future. but what we did see was the team playing the trump campaign each time was pretty ruthless right out of the gate. the team playing the biden campaign tended to feel like they had to abide by traditional rule of law norms. bless them for it obviously. but what happened was that the trump team immediately began to challenge the results, immediately began to assert, for instance, as we've seen them try to do in real life already, that the results of all mail-in ballots were fraudulent. we saw them in our exercises try to stop mail-in ballots from

being counted, tried to seize or sque sequester ballots or shut down the post office to -- we saw them trying when they failed to do that in some of our scenarios to send rival slates of electors to congress. all of the scenarios really ended with a kind of impasse, at which point we said, okay, let's stop. let's stop right here and debrief and talk about what just happened because the goal of these exercises was not just to keep everybody up at night thinking, oh, my god, i had no idea things could go so wrong in this election, but rather to really identify ways that we hope we can take steps between now and the election to make sure that we do have a free and fair election with results that do truly reflect the will of the american people. >> there's a quote in "the boston globe" about this in which it said, both sides turned

out massive street protests that trump sought to control. in one scenario, he invoked the insurrection act which allows the president to use military forces to quell unrest. the scenario that began with a narrow biden win ended with trump refusing to leave the white house, burning government documents, and having to be escorted out by the secret service. you know, there was a "washington post" article that said biden said he's convinced that trump may not leave, but leaders -- military leaders will escort him out. who actually escorts the president out if he says no? >> that's a great question, and no one really knows the answer to that. i actually think we should all be careful what we wish for. i don't think it would be a happy day for american democracy if the u.s. military somehow had to get involved in forcing a president out of office. that would be a terrible day for american democracy. that's what we want to try to prevent. i think what we have seen, though -- you know, it's funny. when we first started this effort to start thinking about doing these scenario exercises

back in last winter, the reaction of a lot of people was, oh, come on. that's paranoid. i'm sure it will all be fine. the election will be a normal election. i think what we've seen since then, between the impact of the pandemic and the disruptions to balloting that that's caused and president trump's own comments and his actions in the wake of the protests following the killing of george floyd, his willingness to threaten to invoke the insurrection act, to send active duty military troops into american cities, his actions more recently in portland, i think that's really shaken people quite substantially and forced them to sort of say, oh, boy, this isn't -- this isn't just a paranoid fear. these are actions that it really does look like the trump administration is starting to contemplate. i do think it would be a terrible, tragic outcome if anybody had to force trump out of office. i think the important takeaway for me from these exercises is, as i said, these are not

predictions. you know, these are possible worst case what-ifs. but i think one of the lessons of them is, you know, forewarned is forearmed. if we want to avoid a situation like that, number one, i think everybody needs to understand that this is not going to be a typical election. it's almost certain that we will not know the result by early in the morning after election day because there will be so many mail-in ballots, that it will take days if not weeks to count them. and that doesn't mean anybody's -- that there's some kind of funny business going on. that's normal. there is no reason whatsoever to think that those mail-in ballots are any more likely to be fraudulent than absentee ballots have been in the past or that in-person ballots will be. so people need to understand that. >> yeah. >> they also need to understand that, you know, at the end of the day, we live in a system that depends on voluntary adherence to the law and to a set of norms. the same reason people stop at stop signs even when there are no police officers around is because we basically agree that

the whole world is safer if we do that. but when you have a powerful president with all the powers of the executive branch at his disposal, who thinks, hey, i don't need to stop at stop signs, why should i, that's incredibly dangerous. >> yeah. >> and the only way to prevent something like that from actually hijacking the election is for everybody to be -- you know, the old adage of eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. bea we all need to be enforcing those laws, those norms right now. we need to be thinking through the worst-case scenarios so if and unfortunately more likely when the trump administration, the trump campaign attempts to flout those norms, everybody is ready to go to challenge it in court and to challenge it through peaceful protests ultimately if necessary. >> we're going to need to continue this conversation because there's a lot to digest here, rosa. thank you very much. rosa brooks is a georgetown law professor. thanks for your time. we'll be right back. back.lly sn

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teams and these players? >> that's right. that is the way to look at it and the way to think about it because the major league teams were thinking that was going to happen and protecting themselves from it. it's going to be a lot harder with 30 kids in a class. >> this is something i'm not sure there's this is a day by day story. we'll see what happens. thank you. >> thank you, lawrence. >> thank you. well, 31 days. it took 31 days, and today a reporter finally asked donald trump about what the reporter called, quote, reports of russia being bounties on our soldiers in afghanistan, and donald trump did exactly what we expected him to do. he lied and he quickly turned to the next question. and here is the question and answer that we have been waiting 31 days to hear. >> i wanted to ask if you did