with everybody this great atlanta journal constitution cartoon by mike lucavic. this is the tribute he published for congressman john lewis showing lewis making one final walk on a bridge holding a sign that says simply "vote." welcome to a special hour of "kasie dc" dedicated to the 2020 election and countdown to presidential pick. if you're joe biden, the road ahead looks pretty smooth. you're polling well ahead of an incumbent president who despite getting out to an historic fundraising start is pausing ads as they rethink faltering strategy. despite attacking his age, mental acuity, his son, they have yet to land a serious blow on the president. now biden is adding a new target weighing how to way out the

ticket without giving the trump campaign too much to work with. i'd like to bring in my panel, david plouffe, former campaign manager and robert gibbs former white house press secretary for obama administration. they are all msnbc contributors or analysts. it's great to have you all on board tonight. david plouffe, let me start with you for the broad picture here because you were, of course, behind the scenes as president obama made this choice. at the time he said he wanted somebody with a little great in -- gray in his hair, his perspective. i love it, how much do you think the selection for joe biden will affect the outcome and trajectory both of this race and also the next four years and potentially the next presidential election?

>> well, kasie, it's going to be incredibly important in the whe pandemic to dig out from under, an economic recession if not a depression, tattered global alliances, a climate change. he's going to need a vice president great counselor, great with congress, great around the globe, can really be value. veepstakes are always like who is going to help with the state, his demographic. at the end of the day, history suggests this is about the people at the top of the ticket. you want somebody who can handle that first debate and give a good speech at the convention and we hope excite the base and i think a lot of people on the short list will do that this is much more about helping you govern than it is about the campaign trail. >> robert gibbs, you were at that podium so many days through the obama administration. what do you remember, what stuck out to you in terms of who joe biden is and what that's going

to mean for how he looks at this selection? >> i think joe biden is looking for his joe biden, right? somebody that can provide frank, honest advice. somebody who, as he did, saw the president last before he made on look, i think for a presidential candidate, this is the most presidential level decision they make. the only real task -- i agree with david, the folklore around this pick is way out of bounds. in reality this pick has to answer one fundamental question, can this person -- can this woman become and take over the job of president, if something happens to joe biden. that is it. right in we don't want to have -- nobody wants to have sarah palin in a katie couric a week into this pick, right? this is in the about who wins this state or does this subset of these targeted voters. as david said, this person is

going to pick up and run big projects, right? joe biden ran the recovery act. joe biden was a big player on foreign policy and in iraq those first two years that i got to sit in the situation room with the two of them. so that's the type of person he's looking for. somebody he can give those big governing projects to. this pick isn't just -- it doesn't just have to be good for august of 2020, it has to work for august of 2021, 2022 and 2023. i think it's really about the comfort level and getting this pick right. >> speaking of comfort level, vice president biden has said he's going to pick a woman. there are several women of color on his short list. as robert alluded to, this is about a personal relationship, a personal rapport not just with the vice president himself but with joe biden and others in the family. how do you think those calculations play into this decision. >> based on our reporting, those calculations play in a bit and play an oversized role thinking

about who was loyal to joe biden, somebody he feels like he can trust, gel with. he and president obama had a really good relationship. he's looking for someone who will be his joe biden. i also think, and i will say here, that while joe biden does have critical bases already locked and he is looking good in the polls, i think who he picks can deal with voter turnout. if he picks someone who is exciting, picks someone who the base of the democratic party can look at and say this is the future of the party and not someone who can help out when it comes to leave their homes in the middle of pandemic or remember to mail in their ballots in the middle of a pandemic when people are dealing with so much. i'm not sure when i talk to voters, they aren't going to base their pick on whether or not they vote for joe biden or not on who his vice president is, based on my reporting. there are people who wonder whether or not all this is relative to their lives, having someone young, vibrant -- by young, over 35, but still feels like they are the future of the democratic party, that will get

people excited in a way that i think is important for joe biden. i think it is very much about who does he actually gel with. my understanding he's meeting face-to-face with the last people on his short list in the next few days. that will really determine in that room when he has those one-on-one conversations who he ends up going with. >> well, that is a perfect segue to talk to the person who has covered joe biden so closely for i think it's a decade. mike, you're going to have to correct me. you've reported you never have to wonder where joe biden's heart is on something. that's probably true for what he's looking for in a vice president. mike, it's great to see you on the program. mike memoli is here with us. you've put together kind of a look at -- joe biden has essentially already told us what he's looking for. what do you know tonight?

>> that's exactly right, kasie. joe biden's search team has done the work and it's in his court. you've heard me say this before, you wonder what joe biden is thinking, you only need to listen to what he's saying. joe biden served eight years as vice president. the way he's talked about his time in that office offer important signals about how he's approaching his own number two. it's the first rule of veepstakes, you don't talk about veepstakes. >> you know i'm not going to talk about that. >> i am not going to speak to the vice president job. >> any decision is up to vice president biden. i'm going to support whoever he chooses. >> that is unless you're joe biden. >> only thing i know a little bit about is vice presidency. >> town hall after town hall, even before he was nominee, it was one of the most common questions asked of biden. he always had a consistent answer.

>> looking for someone to be a partner in progress who is simpatico. i'm going to pick someone simpatico with me. simpatico. totally simpatico with where i am. >> only two served as vice president an then faced the choice of picking their own number two. biden's years as number two on barack obama's side is on his mind. >> the president asked me what you promise me i get to be the last person in the room. >> so how does his short list match up to the biden test. >> i need people who make up for one of my men weaknesses. >> a woman of color and one with criminal justice reform could reassure democrats unhappy with biden's record, especially 1994 crime balance. karen bass or val demings. >> no president has the capacity in the 21st century to handle everything.

you've got to be able to not a joke, turn over presidential responsibility. you can't do it for a cabinet member because internationally it's not taken as seriously. >> point susan rice who worked closely with biden matt west wing as obama national security adviser and could shoulder the foreign policy burden while biden works at home. >> you have to be able to be willing to have someone with you who will tell you the truth they think you're wrong and not be intimidated by the fact you're the vice president sitting behind that desk. >> an argument for elizabeth warren who has perhaps the biggest policy differences with biden, especially on health care. >> if i picked someone who had a view that they insisted we do medicare for all, that would be a real problem. >> then there's the question of trust. >> that little girl was me. >> and what that opening debate clash for kamala harris means for veepstakes favorite. >> barack obama and i used to argue like the devil but we always dit in private.

>> no grudges biden wrote this week, at least for him. >> are there any hard feelings because she criticized you. >> i'm not good at keeping hard feelings. >> now, kasie, i should mention i chose those five individuals in this package because that's basically the understanding of where this process is. people familiar with biden's thinking stressed that that final mix could change as he's now fully dug into this process. we ended it with kamala harris. one of the most underappreciated dynamics of this vice presidential search for a lot of democrats 2020 vice presidential nomination may well be the first primary of 2024 or 2028 presidential nominee and good reason to think that. since lbj every democratic vice president has gone on to be the democratic nominee for vice president, kasie. >> pretty remarkable statistics. mike memoli, thank you as always for your reporting on the former vice president. let's dig into what mike was

concluding there. what does this short list look like, what are those calculations. david, i'll go back to you on this. kamala harris seemed to be the front of this process for so long but she did make that decision to go after former vice president on the debate stage in an attack that was clearly viewed by the biden camp as clearly personal. he was taken aback. in make ways it seemed a violation of harris's longtime friendship of his son beau. what do you think are the pros and cons of his running mate. >> i can't imagine -- i think what vice president biden wrote on the notepad, he can't hold a grudge. maybe some on his campaign do. that moment, this is politics. at the end of the day beating everyone did is going to be hard. the problems, if joe biden wins are going to be harder to tackle. i doubt that's going to be an issue.

it's really -- i'll tell you, i advised barack obama as did robert and some of our other colleagues, it's probably least interested in my opinion, robert would say the same. he had to live with his decision. how joe biden is going to take this, if i need to ask that person to rundown to congress or get on the plane and go to the u.n. or to europe or oversee a vaccination distribution, can i trust that person? if he thinks kamala harris is the best person he's going to choose her. i don't think that's going to be a problem at all. it gets overblown because that primary on the whole was one of the more gentler primaries we've ever had. >> there weren't a lot of moments to seize on, i'll give you that. there was a lot of talking and not a ton of news made on those stages. speaking of debate stage, i want to show a little bit of vintage biden, if you will, debating paul ryan back in 2012 because this, of course, is something that you have to think about

when you're making a vice presidential selection. how will they stand up on this stage in this case against vice president mike pence. let's watch. >> cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve important preferences for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. it's been done before. it's precisely what we're proposing. >> it's never been done before. >> it's been done a couple of times. >> never. >> jack kennedy. >> now you're jack kennedy. >> ronald reagan. >> that's amazing. >> republicans, democrats. >> i have so many thoughts about that particular clip. robert gibbs, when you're thinking through who would stand up to vice president pence, let's think about some of the others on vice president's short list, karen bass is somebody that's come up in the last couple of days but there's also elizabeth warren still reportedly in the running.

how do you think stacks up the best on this score? >> i think, look, there's a lot of them that have experience in the last little bit in these debates. i agree with david, it wasn't a sharp debate -- there wasn't a big sharp stage on these debates. i think, quite frankly, any of the candidates you're showing now, throw in a few governors, governor whitmer, i think a lot of senator duckworth, some of the mayors, i think, could get some attention as well. so i think this is probably an eight-person race or so right now, if you're looking at it. i think you need somebody who understands the moment. you saw in that, biden knew when to interject and what to interject with. he knew the record and what the race was about. i feel very confident whoever the vice president -- whoever vice president biden selects to be his vice president will have that rig or and that tenor of how this race is going and what those issues are. the vice presidential debate may

be one of the only times we see certainly -- it is the only time you see one-on-one with the current vice president. you've got to think a lot of campaign events are going to happen like they are right now in small rooms with reporters distanced over zoom. it's a fundamentally different time periods. each one of those candidates has been through big races, tough races. i think that will help whoever is selected. >> yamiche, what's your reporting say on how important it is to pick a woman of color, and does that override these other considerations? is that something that's important enough to the vice president himself? a small indication how far things have come in american politics.

with me now is former gubernatorial candidate stacey abrams. she's the founder of both fair fight which works to fight voter suppression and fair count, working to ensure an accurate count in the census. she's also the author of "our time is now, power, purpose, and the fight for a fair america." thank you so much for being on the program today. it's great to have you. i want to start by asking you about those organizations we have seen already problems with

voting in your home state of georgia, other places across the country. you have these organizations that are working to try to address these problems as we grapple with the coronavirus crisis. what are you able to do between now and election day, especially considering that the president has tweeted such suggestions such as delaying the election to make sure people have their chance to express themselves through their right to vote. >> we started fair fight and fair count in the wake of the 2018 election. i've been at this for a while now. i started the organization in 2019 because i understood that there would be something catastrophic in 2020. we didn't know it would be a pandemic but we knew a fight to create free and fair elections would be a national fight and it would require using the primaries as a way to learn. what we've learned in georgia and around the country there's an intentional effort in georgia and by the president through disinformation, flat-out lies and through using the systems against people. that's why we need to fight for

free and fair elections through mail-in voting, in-person voting and through in-person voting on the day of the election without losing poll places. congress can make this happen passing h.e.r.o.e.s. act. congress is in session and our deep hope is they will do the right thing. our fear is they will leave cash strapped states without the ability to scale up for an unprecedented election. we can do this if we try. my mission is to call on congress to keep the work up and get it done but to work with local governments, allies and advocates that no matter where you live you have the right to vote in november. >> we've also seen the president already preemptively casting doubt on the election, as polls show right new he's losing to joe biden. are you doing any work from whether it's a public relations perspective or other ways to try and address helping convince and show americans that the results of the election can be trusted? >> the best way to show

americans that the results can be trusted is to, one, make sure no one believes we're going to have the answer by 11:00 p.m. on election night. not going to happen. whether you're in georgia, where we faced an unprecedented meltdown but also faced unprecedented turnout we know this is going to be true across the country. we need people to understand more people are going to try to vote. we can overwhelm the system with our participation but we have to have patience when it comes to the outcome. likewise we have to recognize he's trying to distract us with these cries of fraud and these lies about when the election can be held, he's trying to distract us from the fact this is a failed presidency but it's also a failed leadership in that he's also trying to forfeit our right to be counted in the 2020 census. we can't allow ourselves to be distracted. that's why i'm talking to anyone who will listen about the fact we need a fair fight in our elections and a fair count in the census. >> speaking of the presidential

election, we are expecting joe biden to name his vice presidential running mate possibly as soon as this week. have you had conversations with the former vice president's team about potentially being his running mate? >> i defer all questions about vetting to the biden campaign. what i can say is that i'm proud to be working with vice president biden's team on lifting up his plans for america, plans that we can only make come to fruition if people have the right to vote but also if we have an accurate count. what i'm deeply concerned about now is the fact that donald trump has taken steps to artificially end the census early, knowing that that will leave millions of uncounted african-americans, latinos, native americans and api folks and that's just wrong. the census is a constitutionally mandated exercise and no one should be allowed to lie about what america looks like.

that's what he's tempting to do. i hope everyone fills out their census and congress takes action to make sure the census account has to continue through october 31st. >> along those lines there are some powerful positions in the executive branch of government, the department of justice, attorney general potentially comes to mind that are tasked with these very things, ensuring that states are complying with what still exists of the voting rights act, for example. democrats are already talking boult a renewed voting rights act that would need to be implemented in part to honor john lewis. would you consider an executive branch job that allows you to work on some of those things from that angle? >> my focus is on making certain that america understands that we deserve a fair fight and a fair count, but also that georgia is a battleground state where we have transformed the electorate over the last few years. we can pick up two senate seats, deliver 16 electoral college votes and do the work of building a better america.

no matter what position i'm offered or what position i run for, my responsibility is to be a patriot who defends our country by protecting our democracy and understanding that the reason we do this work is not just for the act of voting or the act of being counted but develop and deploy the policies that make people able to live their best lives. my responsibility is to ensure opportunity for all and regardless of the position i might hold, my platform and my responsibility won't change. >> the former vice president has been very publicly lobbied to choose a woman of color. obviously we as a country have been going through a real reckoning around issues of race. you are an african-american woman who has run a high-profile statewide campaign. you know what it's like to be in that spotlight. what kind of attacks do you think a running mate, who was a woman of color, would face that perhaps a white woman wouldn't have to face in that kind of a

spotlight? >> we know the attacks based on gender or on race are always virulent, painful and always born of ignorance. as a woman of color, of course, you get a twofer, racism and sexism. the reality is a strong woman -- that's every woman considered -- strong women know how to fight back because this isn't the first rodeo. we've seen this before. if you've run for office before or served in the public spotlight, you've been attacked. you know people undermine you and underestimate you. that's why i've always been very assertive, not because i'm advocating to be something but because i refuse to be discounted. i know, as every woman on the list knows, it is our responsibility to speak up not only for ourselves but for young girls, especially young girls of color who have to see to believe it's possible for them as well. >> do you feel like you've been punished for being so open about your ambitions politically? >> i think people have become disconcerted by the fact i've answered the exact same question

for more than 18 months the exact same way, they just didn't start paying attention until march. i do think there was some unnecessarily critique but i don't think it's unexpected. when you do something different, when you meet the standards norm tiff for men with behavior they don't expect from you either as a woman or a person of color, then you're going to get critiqued. my responsibility is to rear it and not only hear what they are saying but understand what they mean. i know what i mean. my ambition is to serve the people i care about in this country, part of a global society where we are doing better by our people. that's the work i've been doing. that's the work i'm going to continue to do. i've been consistent in my approach and it's worked so far. >> stacey abrams. thank you so much. still ahead, keisha lance bottoms. but first running while female. jennifer palmieri central in the campaign.

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being a woman in contention to be joe biden's running mate

is not without its challenges, something that senator kamala harris has been finding out firsthand. politico reports that harris allies met with biden campaign staff after senator chris dodd, a member of biden's vetting team for vice president was quoted doubting whether she would be a loyal number two. he reportedly told a long time donor said she had no remorse after attacking biden during the first democratic debate of joining me now communications director for hillary clinton's 2016 campaign jennifer palmieri is out with a new book "she proclaims, our declaration of independence from a man's world." yamiche is back with us. let me start with you on what harris has been going through here. i know you've spent a lot of time reflecting and writing about the experience hillary clinton had in terms of running while female, pretty significant tones and suggestions and ambition around her debate performance and selection as vp. what do you think she's going through right now. >> too much ambition and not enough remorse.

i think it's going to be tough for this woman, whoever she is. even though we attach ambition to senator harris because she already ran for president, right? even though woman experience plenty of ambition in america, it's still an unusual thing for us to see so it stands out with her as something problematic in a way that doesn't for male candidates. joe biden also ran against barack obama, right? he was a rival of barack obama. he was a man who had presidential ambitions, he's running today. he put aside his ambitions and served as a very loyal partner to barack obama for eight years. i'm quite sure kamala harris can do the same. we still do attach this notion

as ambition as an unfavorable quality. you know, what i like about harris is she's been tested. she went through fire as a presidential candidate. we know what donald trump does to women candidates. no matter who it is, no matter what their record is, he will find a way to attack them and you want somebody that's been through fire. a woman who has run for president has certainly done that. >> what would you say, jen, to the assessment that harris's campaign was disappointing. she was out of the gate as somebody who potentially was a possible front-runner, had a lot of donor support. there are people who feel like she dropped out faster than many expected.

>> she did drop out a little faster than i expected but i think she made a savvy political decision about what was ultimately her chances were going to be and what was into the best interest of the party. that is a -- she did not win. she ran a good campaign. the vice president in 2008 didn't have a very great run in his presidential campaign either and was great nominee, served as great vice president. what i think is important is she was tested. she went through -- she was great on the debate stage, very effective. we've seen how effective she is at quizzing people. she went through a lot of attacks. she had up and downs with the press and she knew how to handle it. i don't think we've really wrapped our head around how different the race is going to be once she enters it. onwoman is going to be among three men. she's likely to be a woman of color. i know the distortion feel that happens to women candidates. when you throw donald trump in

the mix, it is an extraordinarily combustible situation, plus a possibility of it being a woman of color, and i think you really want someone who is battle tested. because no matter how -- imagine if it's tammy duckworth, trump will probably say she couldn't manage her own helicopter, how can we trust her to manage and lead the country. tammy duckworth is someone who has been through fire. she can hold up and she can defend herself. but literally, quite literally. but we have to think about what -- not what does a candidate look like on paper, what is trump going to do to this woman and how proven are each of them in standing up to that kind of scrutiny. if i were working for joe biden, what i would be looking for more so than anything else is the ability to do that. >> you've sat in that white house briefing room, you've sat in the rose garden. you've questioned this president and experienced a version of

this firsthand. what would you add to what jen is talking about here? >> i think there are two things going on. first, talking to people who are supportive of senator harris as a vice presidential pick just even the attorney for the family of michael brown, tr he's out with an op-ed supporting senator harris. what you see are people close to senator harris wanting to make it very vocally clear they are behind her because they feel like she's getting a public vetting they feel is unfair, the fact she's seen in a specific way. we're not hearing these leaks with other candidates. that being said, i think it's right that the person who ends up being the vp pick, of course they will be attacked by president trump. if you look at this list, the president -- and i do mean president trump -- he's going to be someone who will attack either way. if it's senator harris, talking about her background as a prosecutor, susan rice,

benghazi, tammy duckworth saying she's unpatriotic, even though she's served our country in this real patriotic and amazing ways. in some ways the president is going to be a combustible ingredient. all that being said, i think joe biden will lean on the fact he has to feel very comfortable with the person. i think this week when he's having his in-person one-on-one meeting, he's going to decide based on loyalty and who he feels like will have his back and possibly not going to overshadow him. polls show that people are more excited about voting against donald trump than they are about voting for joe biden. so as a result his vp might change that. someone might get excited about kamala harris or susan rice because at the end of the day they are looking at the future of the democratic party. whoever the vp is, they are going to be part of the future of the democratic party. >> certainly, this particular pick does seem to carry a significant amount of weight in

terms of what it sets the stage for as the democratic primary potentially shapes up into the future. but we'll stay focused on this moment. thank you both very much for your insights tonight. i really appreciate it. when we come back, i'll talk to atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms. mayor, mother, potential running mate all while raising four kids during a pandemic. she joins me next. well, here's to first dates! you look amazing. and you look amazingly comfortable. when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck... that's when you know, it's half-washed. try downy fabric conditioner. unlike detergent alone, downy helps prevent stretching by conditioning and smoothing fibers, so clothes look newer, longer. downy and it's done.

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i'm so proud to bring a perspective of a black woman, a daughter of immigrants and a mother and wife, and a proud nerd and a representative of emerging america to cable tv news. i hope the great gwen eiffel and my mom will look down from heaven and be proud. in just a minute we're going to talk with atlanta mayor keisha bottoms but first we want to check in with steve kornacki on the big board with more on the calculus past presidents have used to think about their presidential picks and what it tells us about who joe biden might pick. >> all right, kasie. this is sort of the long list here. these are most, if not all of the names that have been mentioned as a potential vice president pick for joe biden. how is he thinking about this? what are some of the political

imperatives? how did this play out in the past? we thought we would take recent vice presidential picks for both parties here and break them down into the basic different categories that candidates have been looking at. calculations when they make the veepstakes pick. let me give the example here. we're calling these the hail marys. three from behind thought they had to do something dra account make, shake up the race. that was john mccain when he picked sarah palin in 2008. that was bob dole when he picked jack kemp. dole and kemp were enemies in the republican party. dole said a lot of nasty things about kemp, went with him in '96, thought it would shake things up. girld even ferraro, first woman ever picked for a national ticket. mondale running against reagan thought making a historic pick like that was the kind of thing he needed to do to change the dynamics of the race. all three defeated. hail mary passes aren't

completed most of the time. another category, showing independence. by the way, hail mary, behind. biden is not behind. that doesn't apply to him. how about showing independence, clinton/gore. bill clinton was the nominee. there was an assumption '92, boomer, southern, moderate, needed an older liberal from the north, balance the ticket that way. instead he went with a fellow boomer from the south who was a political moderate. al gore. he was trying to show independence from the liberal wing of the party. gore they ran as different kind of democrats. that's what they said in '92 about the ticket. that was showing independence. gore/lieberman. gore picking yo lieberman, criticized bill clinton very, very poignantly over his affair with monica lewinsky. gore did not want to be drug down by the nation's win with clinton and lewinsky so he

picked this one. reagan, bush. a lot wanted bush. kerry edwards, a lot wanted edwards, he did. trump, pence, trying to bring up evangelicals. shoring up the party. then this, governing, bush and cheney, dick cheney 2000 he wasn't running for president. from the minute he got in there, he wanted to govern. cheney did. he didn't want to succeed bush. obama/biden. tim kaine with hillary clinton. the eye there of the nominee not so much can i win a state with this person, it's about what's it going to be like if i win president. this somebody i want to govern with. joe biden, you look at these past examples, including biden him, that might be the closest thing to what he's looking for right now.

>> that is certainly my bet. my thanks to steve kornacki for that. when we return, atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms. i like liberty mutual. they get that no two people are alike and customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ little things can become your big moment. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment.

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as millions of kids across the country head back to school, at least one thing is clear. first days are going to look different for everyone. in atlanta, kids who attend public school will be learning online first nine weeks at least. start date pushed back to august 24th so families and teachers can get ready. outbreak in sleepaway camp in georgia is adding fuel to the debate. infected after spending less than a week together. mayor of atlanta, kaish seisha bo bottoms i love the first day of

school. how are you coping as a family? you all suffered with the disease as well. >> this is chopping my household. one should have been into dorm for college, will be completely virtual. middle school to elementary for the other three, facing not going back to school in just a couple of weeks. this is really hard for them, very disappointing. when they came home in the spring we assured them they would be back in school in the fall. what's most disappointing, we had the spring, part of the winter, summer, and here we are in worse condition than we were when they left school in march. >> what does what happened at this summer camp tell you about how parents should make decisions about what to do with their kids? i think the numbers are scary for people.

>> they are frightening. when i looked at the numbers and saw how rapidly it spread, it was reminiscent of my household. one of my children was asymptomatic and positive, my husband and i were infected. i was pretty much asymptomatic, my husband in perfectly good health is still waking up every morning with bad migraine headaches. 100% better than at the worst of that virus, still having lingering side effects. that's what concerns me about our kids going back to school. my household, end of the school day, my mother is at home waiting on my kids to come home. that's the case with many families across america. bus drivers, cafeteria workers, su

custodians, school teachers we have to concern ourselves with. hearing so many teachers opting to retire rather than put themselves at risk this school year. >> remarkably difficult time for them. ask you about the back and forth you've had with the governor with the mask mandate he was fighting your mandate in the city of atlanta. do you feel as though you're going to be able to continue to implement this policy the way you envision it? is it helping your city? >> we're pushing forward with the mask mandate in city of atlanta, joined by cities across the state, municipal association supported the mandate. and there was letter in the newspaper, the "atlanta journal constitution," over 2,100 medical workers in state of georgia wrote a letter, 1,400 signed on months ago, 2,100

signed on to this to imhe plore the governor to allow the mandates to stand. and just speaking about the need for us to all follow the science and data and numbers they're seeing in the hospitals right now, we're at capacity with our icus in hospitals in atlanta. we have a 17% -- over 17% positivity rate for covid in the state. we should be somewhere below 5%. things are getting worse in the state, they aren't getting better. >> before i let you go tonight, i have to ask you about vice president joe biden preparing to select a running mate. are you still under consideration to be his running mate? >> i'll refer you to the biden campaign for questions about that. what i can say, this is the most important election in our lifetime. it was shared at congressman

john lewis's funeral that parting words to bill campbell, please, please, please remind people to vote. i'm so much more concerned about joe biden winning than i am about speculation about a president. this will matter for generations to come. and we have to keep our eye on the prize. that's to elect joe biden president. >> all right. mayor kesha lance bottoms, we appreciate your presentation. we hope your family can stay safe and healthy. >> thank you. >> that's going to do it for us on casey d.c. tlt, we'll be back. . tlt, we'll be back ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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♪ he would tell stories about how he had angels protecting him. and people who had crossed him in the past had gotten really sick or their family had died. he would get this terrible grin that just looked evil. >> they were sisters whose mom brought them here to live with others in this tight-knit

commune. >> we were all having meals together, lots of parties. >> swimming pool, fleet of cars, seemed like kid's fantasy. >> you got a horse for your birthday? >> lots of horses. >> they called it "angels landing," a special place for a chosen few. >> she fell and hit her head and drowned. >> started with a strange death, then another, then another. >> he had been crushed by vehicle while working on it. >> all ruled accidents, but were they? >> it didn't smell right. >> for investigators, a journey into the supernatural. >> he would say that even though we couldn't see her, she was >> who or what had a grip on this place? >> amber was the gl of death, she would come around when

someone was going to die. a tale of dire prophecies. >> he predicted my mom was going to die. >> you might as well be telling me to go live on the moon because that just wasn't something that could happen. the thought of leaving was scarier than the thought of staying. i never once thought about leaving. i thought about killing myself, but i didn't think about leaving. >> reporter: rolling out past the downtown grid, toward the wide-open flatlands north of wichita, kansas, it would be easy to zip by the small cluster of homes nestled between corn and wheat fields not notice them at all. maybe that was the point. but the nondescript compound did have a whimsical name angels landing and it was home to a kind of large put-together family, a commune really, including two sisters. >> we had a great relationship. i had everything i wanted. >> reporter: but angels landing gnawed at a county detective.

for years he could not shake the place, or the people who lived there, from his mind. >> you thought there was a criminal scheme goin' on here? >> it didn't smell right. >> for us, it was a game of cat and mouse. >> reporter: and after a decade-long obsession, the detective's hunch would be proved right. it turned out to be far more sinister than anyone could imagine. >> we had kept this a secret for 10 years and no one knew. >> reporter: he would uncover a supernatural tale of angels and demons. an investigation into the saga of a travelling family that dabbled in most of the seven deadly sins. >> amber was the angel of death. >> did you believe it? >> he could see the future. >> reporter: lies? plenty. lust, greed, murder? angels landing had all of that and more. >> all i could think about was "how are they going to believe me? you know, this is such a crazy story. what if they don't believe me?"

>> reporter: growing up near kansas city, missouri, the two sisters sara and emily had about as normal a life as any suburban girls in the midwest. >> my sister and i used to play together when we were younger. my mom, it seemed like she was always home with us. and my dad was always there for dinner and things like that it seemed like. >> reporter: their dad built houses. mom, jennifer, a realtor, sold them. and the girls were close, despite a 7-year age gap. >> we would go fishing together. she would take me to the pool every day during the summer. things like that. so, i mean, we were close, but we fought like siblings. >> reporter: sara was 16. emily just 9 and a star student. >> i was a teacher's pet. and -- i was usually one of the top of my class. >> you were always prepared. >> yeah, i was a suck up. >> you said that. i didn't, emily. >> totally was. i didn't know it then. but i was.

>> reporter: everything was easy sailing for the girls until their parents' lives went in different directions. >> must have been traumatic, huh? >> it was, it was really a surprise. >> how did your mom tell you girls? >> we were driving in the minivan one might and she said, girls, i decided that your dad and i are going to separate. i didn't know what that meant, but ended up sleeping in separate bedrooms for a few days, then told us they were getting divorced. >> i knew that my parents were getting divorced. i didn't know why. they never fought in front of us or anything. >> reporter: that's always tough for kids. that summer, 2001, their mom jennifer was showing houses to a new client, a man named lou castro who, with his long hair, and western hat, looked for all the world like a well-heeled young cowboy. >> he seemed really charismatic and outgoing and friendly and like he had a lot of money.

>> he would tell everybody that he had cattle in south dakota, and that he was trading stocks he told me he had a bunch of cars in texas somewhere, and that he owned a mansion down there. >> reporter: this soft-spoken man was looking for a country property for his somewhat new age family commune just down from south dakota: a young married couple, trish and brian hughes their baby girl and a young woman from north dakota. jennifer found them just the right parcel, but even after turning over the keys, there was something about that lou castro guy, that emily's mom found irresistible. he'd become more than a client. >> well at first, he was just somebody that mom was doing business with. but they would go to lunch often. >> reporter: as you look back now emily what do you think went on with your mother? >> i don't know. >> reporter: but something was going on, huh? >> something was. >> reporter: and something was going on with lou too. no sooner had he settled down in greater kansas city, than his family commune was on the move again. and guess who was going with them? jennifer the realtor and her two

girls. >> reporter: and what'd your dad think? >> my dad was devastated. >> reporter: just like that, in the fall of 2001. emily, sara and their mom were packing up a u-haul and heading out for a fresh start to life. you got to leave your neighborhood, your playmates, your class kids. >> at first, i was really upset. but -- eventually it kind of seemed like a new adventure and that that's what mom really needed to do. >> reporter: the new home for all three was a ten-acre mini-farm north of wichita. they moved in with lou and his family commune in the spread they called angel's landing. the girls' mom jennifer bought the adjoining ten acres and built a second house. and after they added a swimming pool and a dirt track for atvs, the commune later put up a third house. so what was the routine at the household? >> we were all having meals together. and -- we didn't really do chores. >> reporter: while the girls' mom resumed her real-estate

business, brian worked as a mechanic and lou organized the down time. >> he would throw parties about every weekend. there was a lot of drinking. other people would bring their kids over. we'd go swimming. i would take care of the little kids. we'd play pool. >> reporter: pretty normal. >> little lavish, but -- pretty normal stuff. >> reporter: lou loved toys with engines and there were a couple of workshops big enough to garage his enormous radio-controlled planes and a fleet of snazzy cars. >> going to a dealership and buying a corvette was like going to a toy store and picking out a model car. like, that is how quickly. he would just go and pick one out, say, "all right. i want it." >> reporter: corvettes, dodge viper? >> many corvettes, a few dodge vipers. we had suburbans, tahoes, trail blazers -- big trucks, duallies. >> reporter: they had vanity plates angel one, angel two and so on. so a lot of it is kind of a kid's dream, huh? >> yeah. i mean i got everything i wanted. >> reporter: while the sisters

did stay in touch with their dad who had moved nearby lou's promise of "whatever your heart desires" found a sweet spot. >> lou asked me what i wanted for my birthday. and i was like, "well, i would love to have a horse. but i know that it's expensive. and i know it's too much work. so, we're not gonna do that." he's like, "no, if you want a horse, we're gonna get a horse." >> reporter: you were the little girl who got a horse for your birthday? >> i was. i got three horses. >> reporter: you were the princess of the house? >> yes. >> reporter: emily being the princess didn't always sit well with sister sara. so the other young mom in the family brian's wife trish sometimes stepped in to referee their sibling rivalry. she was the disciplinarian? >> kind of. there was a specific way to do things. and you did it her way. and that's just what was expected. >> reporter: what did you think of trish? did you like her? >> she was wonderful. i loved her just like another mom. >> reporter: so she really was substitute mom in a lot of things, huh? >> she was. >> reporter: so the sisters will never forget that awful day in june 2003.

emily just 11-years-old found herself standing by the swimming pool. >> trish was floating in the shallow end of the pool, face down. >> reporter: a beach sandal floated on the water. trish was dead. coming up -- the horror of losing one of their own. for emily and everyone else the sunny life at angels landing had changed in an instant. >> it was very traumatic. >> later there would be more shocks in store, mysterious accidents. dark threats involving this spirit world and one seemingly demonic transformation. >> he wouldn't blink. he would get this terrible grin that just looked evil. >> when "angels and demons" continues. ns" continues. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable.

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>> reporter: just two years after leaving missouri to make a new start with their mom's free-living, free-spending friends near wichita, kansas, the two sisters, emily, 11, and sara, 17, were still living in the family commune called angels landing. lou, who had money and lots of spare time, was the patriarch. and trish -- who was married to brian and had a baby daughter -- took care of the home. >> trish kind of was the one that would be there before we went to school and after we went to school, because my mom had to work. >> did you like her? >> i loved her. i loved trish. >> reporter: so what happened in

june 2003 at angels landing came as a sudden life-altering shock. the day began normally enough for the sisters. >> we all had gone to lunch, trish and her daughter -- a friend of mine and her baby and then lou and my sister. and then we came back to the house after lunch. and trish and emily and the baby were going to clean the pool. >> that was the plan for the afternoon? >> right. and lou and i were gonna go to davis moore. >> car dealer? >> correct. >> so you go off to the car dealership with lou? >> uh-huh. >> reporter: back at the swimming pool, something truly awful had happened. >> i called 911. >> reporter: she told the operator that trish's toddler had fallen in to the pool, and when trish had tried to save her little girl she slipped backwards. >> she tripped and fell and hit the concrete? >> she fell and hit her head and drowned. >> and the baby was in trouble in the pool, and that you rescued the baby but you couldn't help?

>> right. >> reporter: emily got the baby out of the pool but, because she was just a wisp of a thing, try as she might -- emily could not lift trish's body out of the water. hopeless. across town, sara and lou were checking out cars at the dealership when sara's phone rang. >> i receive a phone call from emily. and she says that, "trish fell in the pool. i need you to come home." >> did she say that trish was dead? >> yes. >> so this is shocking news. you've all just had lunch a few hours before. and now you're hearing trish is dead, huh? >> uh-huh. >> reporter: lou and sara raced back home to angels landing, where police and emts were already on the scene. >> there's no reason to believe that she was under the influence of anything at this time. >> reporter: they had pulled trish's body from the pool, and taken photographs. a single beach sandal floated on the water's surface. pieces of trish's hair clip were in the pool. it had snapped apart when she banged her head, they presumed.

and there were small bruises and a cut on trish's forehead. the medical examiner determined trish's death was due to a freakishly bad accident. trish was just 26 years old. >> and trish was gone? >> yeah. >> reporter: the family was in a state of shock. >> devastated. >> trish had been kind of a mother of the house, the way you talk about her. >> yeah. >> for you, too. >> absolutely. it was really hard. it breaks my heart. >> reporter: and it was hard for lou. trish was someone he regarded as his best friend. lou had met trish in the mid '90s in south texas, after serving in the navy as a plane mechanic. and for eight years they were inseparable travelers. moving on to south dakota and ending up in wichita. >> it was very traumatic. >> reporter: as the family commune tried to come to terms with the tragedy, trish's husband brian embraced his little daughter closer; and gradually, they all got on with their lives.

>> and then, you're, what, goin' back to school and -- >> yep. exactly. >> reporter: still it was hard for the family to put trish's death behind them. and something else was troubling. emily and sara had a fuzzy recollection that trish wasn't the first person in the family commune to die. they'd recently met a teenager who'd also once been on the fringes of the commune. and he told a story with painful echoes. coming up, a tale of tragedy and mystery. >> i knew something wasn't right and he told me, your mom and sister have been missing. >> two members of the commune vanished into thin air, when "angels and demons" continues. a. safe drivers save 40%!!! guys! guys! check it out. safe drivers save 40%!!! safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! he's here. he's right here.

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n-♪-n-no-no >> reporter: at angels landing, the family commune was slowly mending after the devastating loss of trish hughes, who had drowned in the swimming pool, since covered over. sisters sara and emily saw trish's husband brian, an auto mechanic, a broken man, left to raise a daughter.

>> brian loved trish more than anything in the world. and he loved his daughter immensely. he was a really just good person. he missed his wife. brian was sad. >> reporter: as they coped with the loss themselves, emily and sara had a flashback, and pieced together another incident when tragedy struck the family about two years before. >> i wasn't there, and i'm glad i wasn't there. that would be more that i had lost. >> reporter: not long before trish's death, the sisters met 15-year-old cody griffith from texas, who'd also once been on the fringes of the family commune. he'd been close to trish and lou thanks to his mom, mona. my mom and trish were really great friends. they would do a lot together. >> reporter: cody's mom mona was something of a flower child. >> she was extremely loving --

very free-spirited. everything was spontaneous. there was really no planning. she could say, "hey, let's get in the car and drive somewhere." >> reporter: could've been a hippie in an earlier day, huh? >> maybe. just someone who is extremely loving, very accepting. there was no you're right or wrong because of who you are. she just loved everybody equally. >> was she a disciplinarian, tough on you and your sister? >> to an extent, didn't let us get away with terrible things but at the same time let us make our own mistakes. >> reporter: when cody was growing up in corpus christi in the mid 90's, his mom, mona, was going through a difficult divorce and financial trouble. she, cody and cody's young sister lindsey moved in with their good friends trish and lou from the apartment complex. >> i can remember lou taking us to baseball practice when my sister was little, picking her up from school and stuff like that. >> reporter: his mom, mona, and trish took turns cooking for what was the beginnings of the commune.

so you're really an extended family? >> yeah, pretty much. i mean, it was like living with an aunt and uncle. >> reporter: so when trish and lou suddenly decided they wanted to pick up sticks and move to south dakota, mona wanted to go too, and to take cody and his sister lindsey along as well. >> i'll never forget it. it was just like yesterday, and i told her, "no, i'm not leaving." and i had gotten extremely sey thought of being so far away from his dad was too much for cody. so what did she say? "yes, you are. you're gonna go with us?" >> no. she let me make that decision. she would have not wanted me to do something i didn't wanna do. >> reporter: so in late 1998, mona and cody's younger sister lindsey ended up leaving corpus christi and settled near rapid city, south dakota, where, one christmas, cody paid them a visit. it was an extremely small home. it was like in the mountains. we even went and cut our own christmas tree. >> reporter: off the grid kind of a cabin place? >> yeah. >> reporter: the cabin was a tight-squeeze for sure, but the family commune was growing. it was here that trish met and married brian, the auto

mechanic, and they had a daughter. mona, cody's mom, had also found a boyfriend, a rapid city realtor and experienced private plane pilot. you were okay with that, huh? >> oh, yeah. i wanted my mom to be happy. and, you know, i looked forward to meeting him. >> reporter: did you ever meet him? >> no. >> reporter: one friday in february of 2001, mona and her boyfriend decided to take daughter lindsey on an exciting birthday trip to nebraska. exciting because mona's boyfriend would fly them there himself. they took off from rapid city. but not long after, something went terribly wrong. how did you find out about the plane? >> my dad had called me inside, he just looked at me. and i knew something wasn't right. and then he just told me, "hey, your mom and sister have been missing." >> reporter: your dad must have been all ripped up, huh? >> there's nothing you can say. i mean he didn't -- there was no way that he could explain to his son that his sister and mom are gone. >> reporter: and imagine you

hope that somebody's crawled out of the wreckage and they've got some food and water and they're in a little tent waiting for search and rescue to find them but -- >> that's the only thing i could pray for. >> reporter: as cody was praying for a miracle, mona's sister lisa also got a phone call, from another sister. >> and she's crying hysterically. and she said that mona and lindsey had left on a plane, and the plane had never reached its destination. and they didn't know where it was. >> reporter: mona's boyfriend hadn't filed a flight plan, so the plane could be anywhere. rugged territory. >> correct. up in the badlands area, we assume, or nebraska. we really had no clue. >> reporter: but in south dakota, lou castro, a former navy plane mechanic, was on it. when lisa paid a short visit to try to help find her sister and niece, lou was in constant touch with search and rescue.

a huge comfort. soft spoken, nice, funny, friendly. he seemed very concerned. very, very distraught over mona and lindsey's disappearance. and very helpful. i mean, he was very gracious in whatever we wanted. >> reporter: so it's "thank goodness we have lou at the helm here," huh? >> exactly. you know, he didn't work. so he seemed to have plenty of time. he seemed to know everybody. they knew him. we were grateful that there was somebody that was -- had taken control and was keeping us in the loop also. >> reporter: at a gathering of lindsey's school friends in support of the search, lou seemed especially popular with all the girls. >> oh, they were mesmerized by him. >> was he telling them stories or jokes or -- >> uh-huh, laughing. he knew them all quite well. we could tell. >> reporter: was there something a little creepy about it?

i don't want to plant an idea here that -- that didn't exist. >> they all knew lou, but they didn't know lindsey's mom. i just -- i just found that strange. >> reporter: six weeks after the plane went missing, lisa and cody got the news they were dreading. the wreckage had been found. there were no survivors. >> i went to the internet to see what was posted by the newspaper, and it was just debris. so during the six weeks -- five weeks that we were aware of the plane crash and during the search, there was a little part of you that still hopes. >> somebody under a tree with a campfire going. >> exactly. intellectually you know it's not possible but emotionally you're still hoping that for some unforeseen reason some miracle is going to occur and you're going to get that call where

they say we found them, they're alive, they're fine. >> when did you find out they found the wreckage? >> my dad's birthday was march 15th, i believe it was sometime after that. how do you tell somebody happy birthday when you're searching for your daughter? >> and then they found the wreckage? how did he tell you? >> only way he knows how. >> that's the end of all of it, this is not gonna have a miraculous ending? >> yeah. uh-huh. >> reporter: cody traveled back to rapid city, and once again saw lou, who seemed distraught. >> he starts crying and he tells me that my little sister was never supposed to be on the plane. he tells me that if my mom would have only been on the plane, that he says, you know "i would have taken your sister and we would have left." >> reporter: he would have become like the adoptive father then? >> right. >> reporter: how would he know whether she was supposed to be or not? >> i don't know. >> reporter: looking back, do you wonder what he meant by that? >> every day. every day. >> reporter: an ntsb investigation into the catastrophe found no mechanical problems with the plane, leaning

toward a theory that bad weather had contributed to the crash. when do you miss your mom and sister the most? times along the way when you've been growing up? [ sniffling ] cody, i don't think you need to put any words to it. >> you really can't. >> reporter: lou and trish, not blood relatives, determined the burial place for mona and lindsey -- a surprise to lisa, who again raised an eyebrow when she saw her sister's and niece's obituary in a south dakota newspaper. >> and it lists myself, my two sisters, and her brother lou. we're like "where did we pick up a brother?" >> reporter: later, as emily recalled the awful story of the plane crash, she too remembered lou telling her what he'd told cody. >> he said that lindsey wasn't supposed to die. >> reporter: whatever that meant, in 2003, after trish's death in the swimming pool, emily and her sister sara weren't the only ones trying to

make sense of it all. a local detective in wichita was also taking an interest in the plane crash, and the death of trish hughes, and in whatever else might be going on at angels landing. something wasn't adding up. coming up -- one thing was adding up, the death toll of commune members. another was just around the corner. >> we got the call that he had been crushed under a car he was fixing. >> when "angels and commons demons" continues. >> when "angels and commons demons" continues.

i'm dara brown. heavy rain moving from miami to daytona beach with the tropical storm. stretching north into the carolinas. florida arrival had no bearing on moment in american space history. sunday afternoon, astronauts splashed down in the gulf of mexico near pensacola. first water landing in gulf, first splashdown by americans in 45 years. now back to "dateline." >> reporter: in late 2003, after the drowning death of 26-year-old trish hughes, the mood at angels landing was grim. sisters emily and sara watched as the family commune patriarch lou tried to cheer everyone up.

another young woman had joined the commune and soon lou and she were engaged with a little girl on the way. and as the clouds lifted over angels landing, shiny new rides appeared in the drive. >> before trisha died, there was three corvettes and everybody else had an suv. and then, after trish died, it got more and more and more extravagant. >> reporter: more vehicles? sports cars? >> higher-priced vehicles. >> reporter: salesmen must have been licking their chops to see him coming, huh? >> they were. we all had the dealership's owner's cell phones, cell phone. >> reporter: speed dial, huh? >> yeah. >> reporter: in fact lou spent a million and a half dollars on cars in just a few years. and his lavish generosity didn't stop at the family. civic-minded lou was showered with high-fives from the city council after he donated $19,000 towards a brand new police vehicle. and cops were always welcome at the extravagant parties thrown by lou at angels landing. one of the officers in the county dated one of the women

there for while, huh? >> that was me. >> reporter: it was you? >> uh-huh. >> reporter: but not everyone in uniform was joining in the fun. >> it didn't smell right. >> reporter: a local informant gave a "psst, check it out," to wichita detective ron goodwyn an undercover narcotics officer who ended up recruiting two law enforcement heavyweights. and in early 2003, from the shadows, the detective was eyeballing the commune, zeroing in on lou castro. ron, why did you become interested in him in particular? >> he drew attention to himself. >> reporter: kinda flashy or ostentatious? >> flashy. he had what appeared to be unexplained wealth, drew attention to himself with parties, high optioned vehicles. each vehicle had an angel vanity plate with a number after it, one, two, three, four. >> reporter: maybe he had old family money, was an inheritance guy. >> sure. and that was something that we had to look at without violating any of his rights. >> reporter: you thought there was a lot of smoke around this guy, but you didn't know what exactly it was coming from? >> there was.

>> reporter: and the smoke kept billowing when goodwyn learned about the death of trish hughes. so her death didn't trigger your interest in him? >> it absolutely triggered more of my interest in him. >> reporter: goodwyn wanted to find out exactly who lou castro was. he ran castro's name in law enforcement databases, quickly discovered he was trying to put his finger on a man who seemed to have no past, a virtual ghost. and not long after trish hughes's death, he trawled the internet. >> and as i started researching. i started noticing that there were other deaths associated with him. >> reporter: he landed on that obituary of mona and her daughter lindsey, and bingo, there was lou's name. >> that was the first time i had seen lou castro in print. >> reporter: underlying goodwyn's suspicion about castro's unexplained wealth he theorized he had a drug case. >> i worked drug cases and unexplained wealth is, is something that you look at to determine if that's how this person might be earning their money. >> reporter: so goodwyn set out to collect evidence from angels

landing. he began with the trash bags. maybe inside there was evidence of drugs, incriminating documents or a fingerprint? so maybe if you can get a fingerprint, somewhere he'll be in the system and you'll come up with a name? >> that's right. >> reporter: you tried to get a fingerprint. >> i did. >> reporter: and the tech guys couldn't come up with anything? >> they could not. >> reporter: frustrating. there was no evidence of drugs. and nearly three years later there were still no clues as to who lou castro was. but in 2006, came another shocking coincidence. >> brian, how did you wreck it? >> i didn't wreck it. >> reporter: brian hughes, trish's husband, an experienced 31 year old mechanic who was raising their daughter in the commune suffered an unimaginable accident. as emily tells it, brian was visiting family in south dakota. >> one day he called and he spoke to lou for a little while and then he asked to speak to his daughter, who was still in wichita.

and the story goes that he told her goodbye. >> reporter: told his daughter goodbye? >> right. and then, a couple hours later, we got the call that he had been crushed underneath a car that he was fixing. >> reporter: brian was dead. really? that didn't make any sense to emily. >> he would have put blocks under the tires. >> reporter: he knew his way around a vehicle? >> right. >> reporter: and then, he was dead? >> yeah. >> reporter: the bodies were piling up, five now. but none of the findings in any of the cases, including brian's, concluded there was foul play. >> it was classified, and still is classified, as an accident. >> reporter: detective goodwyn decided he was going to have to find a new angle on the enigma of angels landing and lou castro even if he had to work around the clock. what drove you on this thing? >> there had to be something else out there he was hiding from. >> reporter: the mystery? >> the mystery of lou castro, his true identity. >> reporter: one thing was for sure, goodwyn wasn't going to let this go. coming up, yet another member of

the commune meets a tragic end, but this time a light bulb would go off. >> what we saw was a pattern. >> reporter: as investigators dig in to lou's past, he starts to seem like a ghost. >> there should have been credit records, driver's license records and we could find none. >> when get "angels and demons" continues. d demons" continues. for 45 days. we see you. doing your part by looking out...for all of us. and though you may have lost sight of your own well-being, aetna never did. by setting up virtual monitoring for chronic patients, 24-hour telemedicine visits, and mental health resources for everyone. we're always here to help you focus on your health. because it's always, time for care.

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>> reporter: in 2007, wichita detective ron goodwyn was investigating lou castro at angels landing, a commune of about a dozen people. he was also keeping count of the mysterious deaths. five so far, mona, pilot and daughter lindsey perished in the plane crash, trish in the pool and now brian had been crushed under a car he was working on. while all of the deaths were deemed to be accidents really he wondered how could any family be so unlucky? what baffled him most is he didn't know who the central man, lou castro, really was. rifling through angels landing trash cans hadn't worked. what do you do next? >> one day when i was out on a day off i just happened to see lou castro with a female in an

suv vehicle. i followed them to a restaurant on the north end of town. >> reporter: goodwyn sat in the restaurant, watched and waited. >> after they finished, i contacted the manager and asked if i could collect the dishes and glasses they had used at that table. >> reporter: the idea was to get fresh fingerprints that could maybe i.d. castro. that's a pretty cool move, did it work? >> we tried every piece of dinner ware but were unsuccessful. >> reporter: he is still a mystery man. >> that's right. >> reporter: goodwyn tried another fingerprint employ. he cooked up a story about burglaries in the neighborhood. could lou recognize the cars or people in the photos. so you hand the glossy 8 by 10s to the guy who you believe is lou castro. >> i do.

>> how did he handle them. >> he takes them and holds them between his palms. once the photos are out of of the envelope he moves them with his fingernails and doesn't pick them up by his fingers. >> he knew what you were go doing and didn't give you fingerprint. >> no. >> what did it tell you about the guy who had become your nemesis here? >> raised my suspicion he was hiding from law enforcement. >> reporter: frustrated, goodwyn needed help. he called a detective who worked high-profile cases like the notorious wichita btk case. >> it was an amazing story when ron told me. all these mysterious deaths. in this business you don't believe in coincidences. i felt ron was on to something. >> reporter: ron enlisted another big gun to help find castro, fbi supervisory special agent john sullivan. >> we checked the fbi databases and private databases. i had the officers go out and get photographs, pull arrest records.

we checked every lou castro we could find in the u.s. none matched the lou castro living in wichita. >> how unusual is that that the fbi cannot come up with a name and i.d. on the guy? >> that's extremely unusual, especially in this day and age because usually everybody has a trail. there should have been credit records, driver's license record and all sorts of records and we could find none. >> reporter: none of the car purchases, property deeds and utility bills at angels landing were under the name lou castro. they were all under the names of commune members. just as goodwyn was feeling stuck, another tragedy was about to shake angels landing. in happened in 2008 when sara was 24 and emily 17. >> i called mom after school to have dinner with her. she didn't answer her phone. i was so angry with her. because she ignored my phone call.

about 30 minutes into the test i was taking, they pulled me out of class. my dad was there. he said, we have to go. and he started driving me to my house and i said, dad, we have to go to the hospital. and he said, no, emily, we don't. >> 911. what's the location? >> reporter: their mother's car had swerved in to the oncoming traffic. >> she had hit gravel truck head on on a rural road. >> so your mother was suddenly dead. >> right. >> reporter: may have been distraction or turn away from trouble. we really don't know, do we? >> no idea. she had just bought a little yorkie, and for the past couple

of weeks she had been happy. >> reporter: what did the investigators make out of that? >> they said it was an accident. >> reporter: the investigators tell me about that. >> that was one of the most important days of my life. >> reporter: the investigators couldn't ignore that jennifer's head-on highway death was the sixth in eight years from the same family commune. does that change your interest in the case? are you amped up more? >> i think we were. we saw a pattern. >> reporter: every two and a half years a mysterious death, deemed each time to be an accident. while the officers suspected lou castro was somehow involved they had no hard evidence on which to arrest him. they had to wait. >> it's not that easy. we did not want to tip off what we were looking at and if he knew we were looking at him, he could move or change the way he does business. >> reporter: and you still did not know who he was.

>> we still did not know who he was. >> reporter: and a year later in 2009, castro did what they feared, he took off but just as the investigators thought lou castro might have slipped away they got their first big break. coming up, a troubling encounter shakes sara. >> he was very angry with me, scary angry. >> reporter: and someone new gives detectives their first look inside the mysterious world of kblz landing. the authorities were very interested in what you had to say? >> yes. >> when "angels and demons" continues. " continues. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression

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did you tell lou to his face i'm not going, i won't get in the car? >> yes. >> how'd that go down? >> he was very angry with me. scary angry. and i just said i can't, i'm not doing that. i don't want to be that far away from my dad. i don't. there's no way. >> emily might have gone to live with her father, but she remained with the commune. >> i wasn't going to leave what i considered my family. >> and your dad was part of another family back when but -- >> i mean i still visited my dad and i still loved my dad but that's just not where not where going to live. >> as the family and emily moved to beautiful home in columbia, tennessee, sara stood her ground. she could exhale at last.

his name was daniel, expert marksman in the national guard. as she fell in love, she began to spill the buried stories of her past. >> you had just awful, awful things to tell. >> yes. >> reporter: sara was still in touch with the family commune, now living in tennessee. and daniel wanted to know more about the lou character that sara was telling him about. >> started researching all these deaths, trying to figure out how much was related to the individual. >> exactly what law enforcement was trying to do, figure out where the puzzle lay. how did you feel? >> didn't know how to handle it at the time, all fresh and new to me. just stuck with her, decided to try to make things right. >> reporter: and secretly, daniel decided to take action. >> you put together a remarkable

letter for the fbi. took some guts to do it. >> i was just tired of me carrying all that information myself. i found out enough that i believed it should be in somebody's else's hands to do something with it. >> reporter: daniel laid out his suspicions, painting alarming picture of the angels landing commune, a series of mysterious deaths, a code of silence enforced with sickening threats, and a big clue as to where all the money might have come from. at center of it all, the man who called himself lou castro, even for veteran of the wars in afghanistan and iraq, according to the authorities, carried its risks. did you think about that? >> let the chips fall. >> were very interested in what you had to say.

>> nearly seven years after the wichita investigation began, goodwyn and schneider and sullivan got first break. email from daniel. >> he told us what he thought was happening. great thing about it, for the first time we had somebody from the inside that could confirm some of our suspicions. >> saying you guys need to look at lou castro. guessing you get a phone call. >> yes. finally have a cooperating witness to help us determine who lou castro is. >> reporter: in secret without sara knowing, they brought daniel in and peppered him with questions. >> he related to us how lou castro and the others had moved to residence in tennessee. we were reluctant to talk to his girlfriend, didn't want to tip off lou castro or anybody else. >> reporter: and daniel, inside man, delivered the mother lode. >> brought me pictures to identify people.

>> out looking, surveilling, watching cars but you're able to put picture together for them. >> correct. >> reporter: armed with his intel, they got the official green light to pursue castro and try to take him out of business. >> john's counterparts in tennessee got records, license tag out there, registered to a name we thought could be a new family member or potentially lou castro. >> reporter: at the same time as the investigators were looking for joe venegas, they were following money to new home in tennessee. >> transferred from wichita, kansas, banks to tennessee banks. >> reporter: emily remembers the new account. did you go to the bank with him? >> i did. >> you didn't know the local

authorities had been looking for him for years? >> no. >> reporter: pulled the video, there was emily and a man called joe venegas opening an account. who did you see in the image? >> lou castro. >> so lou castro is now joe venegas. >> reporter: now he'd been made. identity theft is a federal crime. they had grounds to arrest him. week later, they moved in. coming up -- investigators finally get inside the doors of the commune, later, sinister stories of angels landing's dark angel. >> amber was the angel of death. >> and then you hear from lou castro himself when "angels and demons" continues.

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