♪ welcome to thursday. it is "meet the press daily." nearly 160,000 americans have died from coronavirus. people in this country are dying at a rate of 1,000 a day. another 1 million americans have now lost their jobs. and key unemployment benefits have expired. neither congress nor the white house can agree on a relief package. negotiators are meeting again right now for basically the tenth time.

cases while declining nationally remain at levels dr. fauci calls unacceptable. dr. birx is privately sounding the alarm with state and local officials and ohio's republican governor today tested positive as he was about to meet with president trump who is striking an increasingly desperate tone. with 89 days until the election and early voting weeks away in some states there is simply no way to sugar coat the full extent of the political crisis that's facing this white house. our first nbc news battleground map of 2020 has president trump right now headed toward a significant defeat. we are going to have much more on this coming up with, who else, but steve kornacki at the big board. right now president trump appears to be looking for any hail mary that he can find whether it's claims of a rigged election or warnings of violent bloodshed. the end of the suburbs or

socialist indoctrination of your children. today in ohio he told crowds that the opponent joe biden is against god. facebook and twitter removed the post for spreading coronavirus misinformation. specifically his claim that children are immune. also today, president trump suggested a vaccine could be available, you guessed it, by election day. even though a number of health experts say the most optimistic scenario, the most optimistic scenario possible is to have a vaccine widely available next year. >> so what's the earliest we could see that, a vaccine? >> sooner than the end of the year. could be much sooner. >> sooner than november 3rd? oh, i think in some cases, yes. possibly before but right around this i'm. >> you said a vaccine could be ready around november 3rd. are you optimistic that that will happen? >> the vaccine?

>> yeah. >> i am. i'm out optimistic probably around that date. i believe we'll have the vaccine before the end of the year certainly but around that date, yes. i think so. >> mr. president, would that give you a boost in the election? would that help you in the election? >> it wouldn't hurt. it wouldn't hurt but i'm doing it not for the election. i want it fast because i want to save a lot of lives. >> joining me now from new jersey where president trump will be shortly after visiting ohio is nbc news colleague kelly o'donnell and with us is phil rucker, white house but owe chief for "the washington post" and dr. bedelia, a msnbc medical contributor. kelly, the president when he does travel is largely traveling to states that he needs to win in november. today one of those states was ohio. was this anything more than a campaign stop? >> reporter: well, katy, as you know there are times where they align an official event and

campaign stops like fund raising tonight in ohio and it gives the appearance of being government business and a president visiting a state and speaking on behalf of all the people but the president's also able to use it as a way to get his campaign message. remember, in states are the key battleground, ohio today, there's local coverage, opportunities for the president to be seen in the community and those are things that any campaign views as valuable currency. so the president more than past presidents tends to blur the line between the official event and the official event so he uses what is a white house taxpayer funded setting and more and more we see him talking about themes that are really very much from his campaign side. obviously the rallies are gone due to covid and retail campaign opportunities have dissolved because of the pandemic. so the president is fusing all

of that together to try to get the most punch out of his official visits so typically if it's just campaign business the campaign would pay for the airplane, all of the different thing that is go along with setting up an official visit or a campaign visit. in this case taxpayers get the bill and this is a way for the president to try to talk about the things that matter to him. he likes to have that optimistic, cheerleader for america persona you talked about. some of that times trampling beyond the bounds what's factual to try to push the ideas like we have seen him moving up the time line on a potential vaccine whether the scientists say early 2021, that could be in for him a second term or for joe biden a first term depending on the outcome. the president's moving that timeline up saying it could be much before the end of the year and may be the case to identify by that point some of the promising medicines that are in

the works right now. but to disseminate and to have a system to distribute that would be much tougher to do so the president trying to do that in order to make the vaccines a deliverable potentially that he could claim for campaign benefit. >> mail-in ballots are starting to go out soon and not something that would be decided on election day. people could be using that as hope when they mail in their ballots. phil, let's talk about these claims. vaccine by election day. children are immune so don't worry about sending your kids to school. joe biden is against god. it looks as if the president of the united states is desperate right now, especially when you put it up against the polling that is out there. from your reporting, how desperate is this campaign? and, i mean, perhaps maybe they're not desperate at all. what are you hearing? >> the president is desperate to try to turn the dynamics of this

race in his favor to find a way to generate fresh momentum in his bid against joe biden. and one of the ways he is doing that is by talking about a vaccine. we hear in the regular coronavirus briefings that he's been having to talk about how optimistic he is about a vaccine. of course, the news today being that he thinks a timeline could be in early november. that conflicts with what he hear from medical professionals and keep in mind that having a vaccine is not like flipping a switch. it is not like one day it's discovered and all 300 odd million americans are cured from the coronavirus. there's a process under way to get that vaccine produced, distributed to the masses, get it tested and so forth so it could be a very long time. but the president has shown himself these last few months to be prone to magical thinking. first he thought the hydroxychloroquine anti-malarial

drug is a cure-all and now a vaccine according to our courting to give people something to hope for and positive impression of the way that this administration is managing the crisis. >> what about the way he's trying to characterize and even run against joe biden? today saying that he is against god. where is that coming from? >> katy, i don't know. joe biden is a catholic, a devout catholic. he talked publicly repeatedly how the catholic faith helped him get through the untimely death of his first wife, the death of his young daughter and adult son. this is a man that lives his faith. trump, i don't know what inspired him to say that joe biden is against god. i don't know how one can actually be against god but i think it speaks to the effort by trump and his campaign to find something that they can use to weaponize against biden because

so many of the attacks they have tried against biden the last several months have really not worked. >> sleepy claim isn't working. the cognitive test isn't working according to the polling. doctor, let's talk about the virus and where we stand with the death toll and the spread. the very latest ihme model says as many as 300,000 americans could die from this by the beginning of december. and they also say that if mask wearing was universal that 70,000 lives could be saved and that video we just showed, the president walking up to the podium. you can see people not socially distanced and hard to tell if they wear masks looking at the back of their heads but the projections, i mean, they're not good. to say that we could save that many lives just wearing masks seems like it's an easy thing to get behind. >> yeah. katy, you know, just weaving

everything together, whether the president says will go away or false hope of a vaccine that might be available, the function that that serves is basically telling people, hey, business as usual. you don't need to change your behavior or do anything as americans in the middle of the pandemic and the truth is the exact opposite. what we need in this moment is to take on this charge and unify as americans to really come behind this idea that it is our responsibility. by simple things like wearing the mask, reducing indoor gatherings, staying home when we're sick and for the government to put in the investment, concrete actions need to be taken to avoid actual losses of american lives between now and december as you talked about so the myth, the most painful myth of spreading the idea that we are in normal times is that people are not taking the importance of these measures into consideration.

you know? and honestly if there's one plea to make as you said, you know, the mask, the hand washing, the physicaltansing, it will have an impact and honestly those are the only tools we currently have available to avoid new infections because even our testing is falling behind. >> yeah. let me ask you this. it's a question that we ask every single day but needs to be asked because the president keeps repeating this claim that kids are immune to this virus. be very clear. where do we stand on what we know about how the virus affects children? >> katy, there is not just studies but american experience now that the fact that kids can get sick from this virus. they get infected, fewer kids get hospitalized and get sick enough for medical care but they can be hospitalized in smaller numbers and carry the virus as

well as adults do and older children transmit at least as well as adults do and we know camp experiences and this week in georgia, missouri, schools had to quarantine classes or large groups of students because they came back positive and to put this claim, again, it is pushed towards normalcy saying we don't need to do the hard work, drive the community transmission down, we don't need to make the investments so if we have in-person learning schools don't have to follow the physical distance or decontamination or wearing masks. i think all of this is hurting us in the long term. >> sorry for interrupting. there seems to be a level of complacency, a man went to church and seems to have infected at least 9 is 1 others and shows you the spread.

one man and we're going to get it on the screen in a moment, was able to infect a number of people within the ohio church so secondary cases to see ringed around in yellow and a number of people and then the tertiary cases, 35 cases, the tertiary cases in green. this is one person, one super spreader going to one event linked to 91 other infections. is this just -- you know, a unique event, a unique experience? or are we potentially going to be already seeing this at events across the country we aren't ab able to track without the testing necessary or the tracking structures in place, infrastructures in place to figure out who people are in contact with? >> katy, i never assumed in my entire career doing outbreak response that six or seven

months out into this pandemic that quite with all the resources would not yet have that capacity to even answer that simple question. how frequent are super spreader events? so this call for data, the fact that not only do we not have accura accurate hospitalizations but we don't have intricate data of how many new infections come from clusters like this? how do we not have that? the tough part of this is as you said, you know, so that particular ohio case we saw five different counties and the studies that i saw today basically said that asymptomatic patients, patients without symptoms carry as much virus as patients with symptoms so i think people look at this saying if i get sick i will have different circumstances and not considering if you get infected even if you don't have symptoms you make a lasting impact on

those around you. >> phil, one last question to you. these things are all tied together. the economy is tied to how the virus is under control, the president's poll numbers at least on the coronavirus are tied to how well the virus is under control and the economy, as well. so does he understand the importance of getting serious about this? and wearing a mask, leading by example, beating the drum on social distancing, on hand washing, telling everybody to take it seriously? does he understand it's in his own electoral benefit to start treating this very seriously? >> well, you are exactly right, katy, and confounded the president's allies. the president hasn't really understood that the easiest way for him to fix all of the problems, to fix his own political problems and to revive the economy and get the schools back open is to get control of

the virus. and he had an opportunity in the spring to do that and the assessment of health experts, the administration failed to putt in the measuring required to get control of the virus putting us in the situation we are in right now and everything is connected to that virus and if they can get those numbers down and get some control over this all of the other pieces could potentially fall into place to the president's benefit. >> phil, doctor, kelly, everybody, thank you very much. ahead, three months out from election day and our first nbc news battleground map has a lot of blue on it. steve kornacki at the big board with a closer look at the state of the race right now. new york state pulls out the big guns against the nra. the latest on the lawsuit trying to bring down the powerful group for good.

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welcome back. as we said at the top of the show nbc news is rolling out the first battleground map of 2020 today and it shows joe biden with a commanding lead. our map which we're basing on private and public polling and conversations with democrat you can and republican strategists shows biden with a whopping 334 electoral votes. president trump with 125 electoral votes and 79 in the toss-up category. among the states right now in the democratic column arizona, florida, wisconsin and michigan, all states that donald trump won four years ago. in just a moment you're going to hear why biden is dominating this map right now from some lifelong republican voters who have become disillusioned in their party. but first, let's go to our own steve kornacki at the big board. so explain these numbers and how

we got to this point in the ele ele electoral map. >> right now we think things have changed so of course this was the 2016 map. trump with 306 electoral votes, 232 for hillary clinton. i'm going to show you what the nbc news map looks like. we're making them blue or red and not seeing the dirps between the solid and the lean. lean we give it to the candidate it is leaning to. you can see as you mentioned we have got biden at 334 right now. trump only at 125. what are the changes? six states here. six states that trump won in 2016 that we now have leaning to the biden column. that is pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, those big three midwest states that trump was the first republican to carry in three decades. all three of those now over the biden side and then arizona,

florida, north carolina. sick states there and also by the way one congressional district in maine, the 2nd congressional district in maine give out votes by district there. trump won one of those districts in 2016. that is on the biden side and a gain there of 112 electoral votes for -- 102 from where hillary clinton landed in 2016 and then additional 4 here, texas, georgia, ohio, iowa. again, these are solid trump margins in 2016. all moving to the undecided. trump won iowa by nearly 10 points in 2016. eight points in ohio. nine points in texas. five points in georgia. all four of those states now again not in trump's column or biden's column and seeing that gray in the middle of the map, nebraska like maine gives them

out by district. there's a district in omaha that's a tossup right now that trump won in 2016 and only movement on this map from 2016, you know, trump campaign has talked about minnesota. clinton state in '16. we're not seeing that movement now. they talked about that in nevada, new mexico, new hampshire. they picked a number of states, not seeing movement from the clinton states in '16 to trump in '20 but seeing a lot of movement on this initial map from the trump states in '16 either to tossup or to biden. and right now, katy, again, that's just basically that's what the polling is showing. we talk about there's a poll in michigan, a poll in texas. putting it all together at this point this is what it looks like. >> steve kornacki, steve, let's try to figure out why this is and turn now to michigan, a state donald trump won four years ago but in jeopardy of losing this year and handling of

the pandemic may be one reason. >> what made you go from pretty solidly for trump to backing away from that and now winding up more on the fence? >> when he said well, we'll knock this right down, that's not -- that ain't going to happen. not with the actions that we took. he stook some right actions. some he should have taken sooner and more seriously. >> what do you think he should have done differently? >> not made such a -- i don't want to say a mockery. it is not the right term but not had it so blase, blase. the bravado. bravado. that's irking me right now at this point. >> dasha burns joins us from east grand rapids, michigan, can't county watching through

election day in the county to county project. i find the conversations you have to be really interesting and two of the big stories lately have been one the virus which you were just talking about there with that gentleman a ten other one the president handling of racial issues in this country after the george floyd protests. how do you summarize what you have been hearing over the past few months? >> reporter: yeah. katy, it's so fascinating. this is why i love this project because i have been in touch with the voters since last november. this is the one-year anniversary here and jerry when i first met him at a farmer's market in downtown and he was echoing the president's language on impeachment calling it a witch hunt, very much a trump voter and speaking like one and since then so much has changed in all of our lives. for jerry it's really been the pandemic but for another voter i

talked to, a mom of two, for her it's the president's handling of the black lives matter movement and some of this messaging now to target suburban moms like her, this law and order message she said is turning her off. it's made her pretty frustrated and offended in fact and trump won both michigan and kent county by a very narrow margin. he needs to hold on to these voters, these moderate republicans, kent county is hometown of gerald ford and voters that view themselves as moderate republicans and they feel like they don't have a home in this republican party. in fact, one voter hal calls himself politically homeless and a lot of factors at play here and the other big conversation is the vp pick and that is going to be a big deal here.

could be make or break for the voters. take a listen. >> i'd have a very hard time, as much as i don't want to vote for trump, voting for biden if he nominates somebody or ask somebody to be his running mate who's divisive. >> it's important to me not necessarily as an individual but for the ticket as a whole and there's still people that need to go ahead and make their decision if they're going to vote for trump or biden just like you two gentlemen sitting here. i like gretchen whit her. >> do you agree with katie? >> no. >> and that's okay! >> reporter: they fall along the spk trum and with the governor of michigan whitmer is on the short list. katie is all for her. hal is open and jerry if biden picks her will probably be going for trump. katy? >> so interesting that they

would put so much stock in the vp pick. it is not as if vice president pence is doing much of the governing. it is donald trump that does the governing as it would be joe biden. nbc's dasha burns, thank you so much. we appreciate it. ahead president trump is railing against mail-in ballots but california says they trustworthy. i will talk to california's secretary of state about how they secure the vote, next. behind every 2020 census taker's mask is a friendly neighbor. they're teachers, retirees, vets, people committed to doing right by getting the count right. if you haven't responded yet, they'll be stopping by to ask some simple questions that will inform how billions in federal funds are spent on local services every year for the next decade. so when they come knocking, say hi from a safe distance and do your part to support your community. time is running out. shape your future. start here at 2020census.gov. i've been involved in. communications in the media shape your future.

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welcome back. president trump continues to rail against -- i'm sorry. 160,000 people are dead. there is a pandemic going on. there's an election in november and the president is rallying against mail-in ballots, against the expansion of mail-in voting in nevada this morning. this time during a radio interview with fox news anchor geraldo rivera claiming that it's rig add enthe real danger in november may be coming from within of his own appointees. the's changes and cutting to the u.s. postal office work flow resulting in delays and with states like nevada and california sending ballots to every registered voter there are real worries that the volume could be overwhelming. joining me now to discuss california's approach to vote by mail is california secretary of

state alex padilla. thank you so much. what do you say to those who might be concerned about the volume, the number of ballots heading into the postal service and the ability to get them to the voters and back to you on time? >> katy, good to see you again. look. it is a legitimate question. and there's good news to report. right? vote by mail is around for decades. and california is not just the most populist state in the nation we have the largest electorate in the nation and vote by mail increased by popularity and more than 70% of the more than 20 million registered voters in california received a mail-in ballot in the primary so while we, too, are keeping an eye on funding levels for the u.s. postal service overall we have years of

practice working in partnership with local postal service leaders and representatives to ensure the timely delivery of not just ballots to the voters but back to counties number one. number two, california we have a postmark plus 3 initiative and we allow more time to be delivered and counted and extending that deadline even more for this november just in case all the ballots still must be postmarked before the election and last but not least in the efforts to improve transparency, you can sign up to track your ballot through the postal delivery system and so will be alerted if there's a bottle neck or delay. >> let me talk about the authorizing of somebody else to return the ballot. seems like an area that critics of this process will point to to say it's ripe for tampering. >> kritings when they think it doesn't suit their agenda or

interests, right? so here's what some of trump's friends don't like about california. we have empowered voters to decide for themselves how they prefer to return their vote by mail ballot, through the postal service in california the return postage is prepaid. voters can drop the ballot off at any secure drop box in the county convenient to them over the course of the weeks leading up to the election or in person themselves at any voting location and on top of that if for some reason they get caught up with a work schedule, sick child, voter can decide who they trust to return their ballot for them. who shouldn't have any artificial restrictions especially in the area of covid and working to give more options for safe voting not make it harder. >> so the president, the administration is suing nevada for its decision to count ballots after election day that are postmarked on or before

election day. are you worried that you're going to get sued, as well? >> we have been sued, both the state republican party and the rnc sued california for our audacity to provide voters for more safe options to vote this november. only took a matter of weeks and a couple times in front of the judge for the republican party to voluntarily withdraw the lawsuit. california will not make voters choose between exercising the right to vote and protecting the health and that of their loved ones. we have some work to do for november and pleased to see that many other states across the country are following similar models. >> so i have two last questions to ask you both at the same time. one, what do -- how long should they give to fill the ballot out? election day or ten days, 14 days to get it back on time? number two, i know you will

count them past election day if they're postmarked on the right day, how long is it going to take to count these ballots? when do you expect to have results? >> i appreciate both of those questions. look. in california voters should check their ballots in 60 days from today. ballots will begin to arrive 29 days before the election. my suggestion, fill it out, mail it back right away. i don't think most people change their mind as to who to vote for this november. but according to law, you can vote up through election day and as long as your vote by mail postmarked on or before election day it will be counted. but the sooner the better is our recommendation. and you're right. california's notorious for taking a little bit of extra time to finish counting the ballots because of the volume and second because of the steps we go to to ensure the validity

of the vote so on election night we will have a pretty good sense of the outcome of most contests. for close contests and final results it is a few weeks and that's normal for a good reason. and i appreciate your help in setting those expectations now. we may have a tense election night and may not know final results for a couple weeks, that's simply the process at work. >> just very quickly, coming to the signature, to match the driver's license or the state i.d., right? right. so the first thing that elections officials check when the vote by mail ballots come back is the signature on the envelope compared to the signature on file as part of one's voter registration record. if they match up, the ballot is then counted. if not beforehand, if they don't vote or the voter forgot to sign the envelope the county attempts to reach the voter and rectify

that issue. >> look at your driver's license and match that signature. california secretary of state padilla, thank you for coming on. i appreciate all of your time. as the u.s. passes the grim milestone of 160,000 deaths, negotiations are happening right now on capitol hill. we have got the latest next. new developments in the beirut warehouse explosion. at least 135 people are confirmed dead. including one american. and now 5,000 more are hurt. the number of people left homeless has grown to 300,000. more than 2,700 tons of ammonium nitrate exploded tuesday. many are now pointing the finger at lebanese authorities accusing them of corruption, neglect and mismanagement. newly surfaced documents shows the government knew the

chemicals were there but failed to act to secure them. other countries are stepping in to help lebanon deal with this. president macron of france arrived in beirut today calling for an international investigation into the blast. we'll be right back. ♪ come on in, we're open. ♪ all we do is hand you the bag. simple. done. we adapt and we change. you know, you just figure it out. we've just been finding a way to keep on pushing. ♪

the coronavirus is wrecking astif the senate doesn't act, it will mean painful cuts to essential public services across america. fewer teachers and nurses, longer response times, dirtier streets. but some say our states should just go bankrupt. text fund to 237-263 to tell congress to fund our essential public services.

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yeah, i'm not going to speculate about the timing but what i do want to reassure the american people is that there is a desire on the part of both the democrats and the republicans at least most of the republicans, not every single one, that we get to an outcome because the economy does need a boost until we get the vaccine. exactly when that deal comes together i couldn't tell you but i think it will at some point in the near future. >> welcome back. that was senate majority leader mcconnell this morning highlighting an obstacle in the next round of coronavirus

relief. right now white house chief of staff meadows and treasury secretary mnuchin back on capitol hill for another round of negotiations with house speaker nancy pelosi and senate minority leader schumer. they're scrambling to reach a deal on components of the coronavirus billdy tomorrow and making progress but they're still far apart on many key issues. nbc news colleague kasie hunt is on capitol hill this evening. always good to see you. where do the negotiations stand right now? have they agreed on anything? are there other sticking points and when will we get a bill? >> reporter: always great to see you, too, katy. they headed into this meeting a couple minutes ago, it started at 5:00 p.m. on the way in meadows and mnuchin stopped to talk to reporters and meadows in particular focused on the top line number for the bill to cost

and republicans made an offer of 1 trillion in total aid. democrats are north of 3 trillion with the heroes act and meadows claimed that that kept going north saying that republicans had moved up from 1 trillion but said that there was little incentive to negotiate if they couldn't figure out that top line number but i think what mitch mcconnell said and the fact he went out on tv saying what he said signals that there's pressure to actually crack a deal even if it spends more money than some of these republicans are now saying is too much. meadows, of course, you will remember was the tea party congressman who was a thorn in john boehner's side on spending issues and seems to be complicating the talks a little bit and can't lose sight of the reality here which is all of these americans who are waiting to find out what is going to happen to them, struggling to make rent, put food on the table and relying on that money from the federal government and nancy pelosi framed it today saying

she sees light at the end of the tunnel on the negotiations but that the light might be the on coming train that's the virus so that a big dark here but i think that the next 24 hours will be critical for these negotiations. it seems as though there's still the will to do a big bill, may not be done by friday. we may see intense negotiations through the weekend. but of course, you know, nothing is done until it's absolutely -- every single detail is agreed upon here on capitol hill and we are watching it for a few days, katy. >> and then voted on and then the president signs it. very quickly, what about money to states? >> reporter: that's a big sticking point and that really contributes to the overall amount of money that the total price tag of the bill and republicans have basically agreed to let states move money around that they had already given them. democrats on the other hand want to send a lot more because

there's a lot on the line, cops, firefighters, teachers, paid by cities and state governments who are at risk if they don't get that money, katy. >> kasie hunt on capitol hill, thank you very much. coming up next, an epic legal battle that is in the works, new york state versus the nra, the ag accusing the leadership of the nra of a lot of corruption. stay with us.

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millions of dollars, from the nra, for personal use. including, for lavish trips for themselves and their families. private jets. expensive meals. and other private travel. for these years of fraud and misconduct, we are seeking an order to dissolve the nra, in its entirety. >> welcome back. that was new york attorney general latisha james, today, announcing a lawsuit she filed to denounce the national rifle association. accuses nra leadership of a pattern of widespread corruption and financial fraud, and of diverting more than $64 million from the nonprofit organization, for their own benefit, over a three-year period.

in response, the nra has filed its own lawsuit, alleging the new york case is a political hit job. nra president carolyn meadows said this was a baseless, premeditated attack on our organization and the second amendment right freedoms it fights to defend. you could have set your watch to it. micha michael waltman at nyu law and he is also author of the book "second amendment a biography." michael, always good to have you on. let's talk about the allegations in it lawsuit. that nra statement is not addressing what the lawsuit is alleging, what they're charging the nra with. saying that it's fraud and corruption and that the people at the top were pocketing the organization's money for their own benefit. it says nothing about guns or the second amendment. >> well, there's an old saying in the law that when the law is

on your side, pound the law. when it's not, yell and pound the table. they're making that response. but the allegations in the lawsuit are, really, quite something. the nra would not be the first organization. but it certainly seems like one, of many, that start as a cause and become a bureaucracy and end up as a market. it really is self-dealing and grifting of wayne la pierre arranging for himself a $17 million contract, in case he gets pushed out. that's a stimulus, if ever there was one. any charitable organization and new york state does have authority over charities in new york, would really raise questions about whether there's been a lot of misconduct. and it comes, as you know, because of rove laevelations to internal splits in the nra

involving oliver north. where a lot of these charges were first made public. >> so this is accusing the leadership of fraud, and of pocketing this money. does the organization, thereby, have to be dissolved? or can there be new leadership to rectify these issues? >> well, as you know, this is a civil lawsuit. it's not a criminal prosecution, presumably, over many months. the suit was against the nra and, also, against the leadership. it is not, necessarily, going to be a surprise if the organization decide that its interests diverge from this leadership. and it's conceivable that the organization could face this kind of penalty. but that one of the possible consequences is that la pierre and the others are tossed out. that's how these things go. and there is a lot of litigation

and a lot of lawyers' hours ahead. >> is this likely to be a successful lawsuit? >> again, the facts of it are quite damning. and there's no question that both the new york and the washington, d.c.'s attorneys general have the authority to do this kind of thing. but it's a very big deal to ask for the dissolution of any organization, certainly one as prominent as the nra. in a lot of ways, one of the things that's significant is, even before this lawsuit, the nra was something of a shell, so to speak, of its former self. it was this force that struck fear in the hearts of politicians. and that made them think if they did anything around gun regulation, that they would be struck down at the ballot box. and in recent years, the nra has lo lost a lot of its focus, has

lost the sense of its political visibility. so, it's hard to know how a suit like this will go. but, in a lot of ways, the political fading from power of the nra had begun, already. >> couldn't they just change the name of the organization? and -- and -- and -- i mean, sometimes when a restaurant is not doing well, they'll change the name of the restaurant. in order to -- to boost its -- to boost its sales. could they take this lawsuit, deal with it. and then, afterwards, just form another organization that isn't called the nra but called something else and is functionally the same? >> that's -- you know, the key fact is that there are millions of americans who care, a great deal, about their gun rights. and they are out there. they passionately believe in this. and whether it's through the organization called the nra or something else, they will continue to be a force in politics.

and to be something to be reckoned with and to be part of the national conversation. i don't think, if the nra goes away that, that point of view goes away. and there could be other organizations popping up with similar interests and even similar personnel. but this kind of monolithic terrorizing effect that the nra had. it would be hard to replicate, at least at first. and one does have to be concerned about the timing. >> michael waldman. thanks so much. sorry, we were up against a hard deadline. thank you, very much, and we will be right back. ank you, vere will be right back

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welcome to the beat. i'm ari melber. we have a big night and a big show. the new york city da has now obtained the trump financial documents at the center of the supreme court case, and appears to be following the money in a criminal probe. a former mueller prosecutor, a