to have more people voting by mail than in the past. >> look at new york. look at what happened in new jersey. look at what happened in virginia. >> oregon, washington and colorado, they've been by mail for years. >> i won't go through the details you know the story. no control whatsoever. >> there's nothing we can do or should do as a government to dictate how to vote. >> this is a way to try to steal the election. >> we'll have a credible election. >> the only way they're going to win is by a rigged election. >> i don't think the american people need to worry about the election. >> yeah, looks like someone's got a senate majority to worry about. >> no, actually, you know, it's very easy to look at those clips juxtaposed and say oh my gosh we have an issue between donald trump and mitch mcconnell, between the president and the senate majority leader. actually, it's donald trump

against the political world. unless you're a stooge working in the white house. we've heard time and time again, mika, republican senators especially saying voting by mail is safe. the election is not going to be rigged. we even had "the wall street journal" editorial page a few weeks ago saying donald trump is talking like a loser. talking like a guy who they know is going to lose. if he wants to keep talking like a loser he should quit and let somebody run for the presidency who thinks they can win. >> good morning, welcome to "morning joe" it's friday, august 21st, along with joe, willie and me, we have washington anchor katty kay. and executive editor of "the recount" john heileman. >> willie, what do you think about last night?

>> well, it was an extraordinary moment for joe biden. i just go back again, it was six months ago that he was left for dead politically. it was over. fourth place in iowa, fifth place in new hampshire, everyone knows the story. now six months later there he is standing on his third attempt to become president of the united states, accepting the party's nominati nomination. i think from a content point of view, an optimistic speech we'll get into, but from a delivery it flew in the face of the criticism that president trump and the trump campaign has made of joe biden that he's not ready, he's fumbling, stumbling. he was not in any of those last night. in his speech biden asked folks to help end this period of darkness. vowed to be a, quote, ally of the light. the first priority would be to get the virus under control by

implementing a national strategy that has been missing in this administration. >> just judge the president on the facts. 5 million americans affected by covid-19. more than 170,000 americans have died. by far the worst performance of any nation on earth. more than 50 million people have filed for unemployment this year. more than 10 million people are going to lose their health insurance this year. nearly one in six small businesses have closed this year. and this president, if he's re-elected, you know what will happen, cases and deaths will remain far too high. more mom and pop businesses will close their doors, and this time for good. working families will struggle to get by. and yet the wealthyiest 1% will get tens of millions of dollars of new tax breaks.

and the attack on health care will continue. the tragedy of where we are today is it didn't have to be this bad. just look around. it's not this bad in canada or europe or japan or almost anywhere else in the world. and the president keeps telling us, the virus is going to disappear. he keeps waiting for a miracle. i have news for him. no miracle is coming. our current president has failed in his most basic duty to the nation. he's failed to protect us. he's failed to protect america. and my fellow americans, that is unforgivab unforgivable. >> well, joe, he's got the material for sure. he's got the material, not one fact he put out last night was exaggerated or over emphasized for effect. this coronavirus pandemic has

been botched from the beginning, something he warned about. and joe biden's life in service may make him and the challenge that he's overcome may make him the perfect vessel to answer what we have seen over the past few years. what did you think of biden's speech last night? >> we saw the parts where obviously he was talking about donald trump's record and what he considered to be a failed record. i thought more interestingly, though, especially at a time republicans are leaving their party and when you have former republicans in suburbs and across the country trying to figure out what they're going to do this fall, i thought it was interesting that joe biden's speech, and you heard this from conservative pro-trump, i guess, that actually is a -- you heard it from pro-trump commentators last night that he did well. i think it had that appeal, even to some republicans because it was a speech that actually

flipped the script on republicans whose leader has really twisted the soul of the republican party now beyond recognition. you had democrats and the democratic nominee stepping into the void that was created by the moral and the political corruption of donald trump which we saw yesterday with the arrest of steve bannon. and instead he delivered a speech whose themes could have fit far better in an acceptance speech from ronald reagan than mr. trump. the focus wasn't on a flurry of policy prescriptions but rather it was on values, family, faith, military service on his son, patriotism and yes, perseverance through tragedy and one of the most reagan-esque themes, the dream of a better day ahead and the belief that america's best

days are yet to come. that is a speech that will stand in the starkest of contrast from donald trump and the republican party that he believes is rich, white, resentful, angry, and willie, filled with conspiracy theorists. it is, again, the optimism was reagan-esque and everything you see donald trump, every conspiracy theory you see him embrace, every democratic norm he tries to undermine, the latest of which, of course, being a fair election, you know, it's the antithesis of what you would hear ronald reagan talk about in his acceptance speeches for republicans. >> yeah, there's no question about it. i mention his delivery flew in the face of the criticism just in the way he performed.

but also when you look at the substance of it, the criticism is he is a vessel and tool of the radical left. i challenge anyone who watched the entire evening or even just that speech to say he is that. if you look it was about his military families, his son, his faith, how much church has meant to him, all these things that don't line up with the criticism, that's who he is, that's true and that's why it's hard for donald trump to land a glove on him. john heileman, as you watch i know you've been covering it for the circus, what was your feeling about his performance last night and really this entire week, how is his campaign feeling about the way he capped it off last night? >> you know, if there's a -- as a spinal tap just to go up to 11 on a scale of one to ten. i think that reflects the biden camp's view of how this went. it's hard to remember, it was a

long time ago it feels like, they headed into the convention swb there was no precedence for this, a convention that was a virtual, pure television production. they not only remade the convention in a new way but did it twice, right. it was supposed to be a normal convention a few months ago because of covid, they refashioned it to be partly virtual and partly live and in person and 12 days ago they had to shutdown the milwaukee component of it. 12 days ago they didn't know where joe biden was going to give his speech, they didn't have a venue for it. they expected it in milwaukee. everyone knows a convention is normally two years in the making. the idea that 12 days out you would be scrambling to find a venue for the most important speech of the week it's a high wire act here.

so people look back at the first hour of the first night and it was not -- it was not fantastic. i think there was kinks to be worked out but essentially from the second hour of the first night through last night just in terms of production, in terms of messaging, in terms of the political work they were trying to get done, i think they believe it was pitch perfect, the numbers have been strong, lots of people tuning in and it met americans where they live right now in covid, which is not in large rooms with lots of people, watching balloons fall on their head, sweating, waving signs, wearing funny hats. unfortunately americans live right now at home in front of the small screen, experiencing everything through this medium here in a more intimate way. obviously would joe biden rather have given the speech to 15,000 fans? for sure. but they turned the speech into a conversation. i think, to joe's point, i think

reagan-esque optimism for sure is a big contrast to donald trump, empathy is also a big contrast to donald trump, you saw that the way the biden personal story got knitted into the discussion of what america is going through. i think the third thing is most important, this was a unifying speech. the biggest theme was bring the country together and that as much as anything there's an explicit contrast, what has donald trump done that made him the most unique president in american history, he has sought to divide the country from the moment he started running through every day of his presidency has been about dividing. and joe biden is reminding us, and that's what they set out to do last night, that's not the way that presidents govern, that's not the way i will be. i may be flawed, imperfect but i will try to bring us together. that's where i think they landed the biggest punch last night.

a flawless performance by joe biden. i've seen him give hundreds of speeches, might be the best speech i've seen him give. >> from friends and foes alike, i think most people concluded that was the best speech they've ever seen joe biden give, which, of course, undermines everything that donald trump and donald trump's campaign has been trying to say about his mental fitness, especially if you saw donald trump yesterday -- >> oh my god, yesterday. >> -- talking about syria, afghanistan, mosquitos, sharks -- >> is that one of those tests? >> it was a bizarre performance yesterday. >> i think he was spinning out a little bit, joe. >> lives in a very big glass house. i will say, what also is fascinating, listening to john talk about it, is that donald trump has from the very beginning worked very hard and this has been a strategy. this isn't even political

opinion. this has been a strategy to divide americans. he has made even the simple things -- you know, ari melber quotes hip-hop songs i quote 1970s pop songs in the words of melissa manchester, even the simple things become rough. haven't we had enough? to hear joe biden say -- something every president would say before donald trump in an acceptance speech -- hearing him tell it radical tells you how far we've gone from norms over the past four years. joe biden said, i want to be president of the united states, but everybody's president of the united states not just people who voted for me. i will be for those -- i will work just as hard for those who voted against me as those who voted for me. of course, anybody can say that,

but mika, what's so fascinating is that's the thing donald trump would never say, has never said. he has divided the world starkly, not between republicans and democrats, not between conservatives and liberals, but between people who praise him and people who don't praise him. people who vote for him and don't vote for him. people who don't support him and people who do support him. that's why joe biden's speech actually sounded ground breaking when, in fact, it's what 44 presidents before donald trump would say on their way to the white house. >> joe biden's speech last night even drew praise from his critics across the aisle. conservative commentator eric eriksson tweeted in if part, biden exceeded eccs peckations. that was a fine speech. rich lowery wrote, forceful, energetic delivery, strongest

when portraying his program as all about jobs. speech lost focus in the second half, but overall probably helped himself. and town hall political editor guy benson simply said, biden crushed expectations. here's more from biden's speech. >> the current president has cloaked american darkness for much too long. too much anger, too much fear, too much division. here and now i give you my word. if you entrust me with the presidency, i will draw on the best of us, not the worst. i'll be an ally of the light, not the darkness. but while i'll be a democratic candidate, i'll be an american president. i'll work hard for those who didn't support me. as hard for them as i did for those who did vote for me. that's the job of a president. to represent all of us. not just our base or our party.

this is not a partisan moment, this must be an american moment. we know about this president, if he's given four more years he'll be what he's been for the last four years. a president who takes no responsibility, refuses to lead, blames others, cozies up to dictators and fans the flames of hate and division. he'll wake up every day believing the job is all about him. never about you. is that the american you want for you, your family, your children? i see a different america. >> so, joe, my joe, i just -- when you watch that speech, i just wonder about the reaction it's going to get. i was talking with a friend yesterday who reminded me that there are, you know, large portions of the country that have fox news on all day and not

to get into a big fox versus msnbc fight, but if you watch fox news, you don't see half of the unbelievable things this president has done and they are characterized very differently. in some of the programming you have no idea what's going on with this administration. you think the coronavirus is going to go away and you think there was a russian hoax. so how would they cover this speech? is there a possibility that this speech can be seen as negative and the liberal left craziness, as trump puts it? i think that the division in the media has played a huge role in the division of this country. >> well, let me tell you, i can interpret as your conservative partner, that fox news actually they praised it last night and

they've been praising it this morning. i think it's really important that -- katty, i think it's important for us all to remember that as shocking as it may be, only a small percentage of americans watch cable news. i mean, yes, there are people that watch fox news all day and people who watch msnbc news all day, but this speech, at this point in the election it starts turning to americans who may not be on the internet all day and then watching cable news all day and then tweeting all day. and those are the people that joe biden is trying to reach in pennsylvania and florida and michigan and the six or seven swing states. >> yeah. and it would be hard to slice that speech in any way that it would come up with kind of this is a senile guy who is the

puppet of the crazy left. there was none of that in that speech, even for the most skillful editor to put together. he came across as a decent guy who is reasonable and will be a voice of comfort. however you want to play that speech, that's what you end up with because that's what the speech was all about. i think in that respect it was a good reputation of what the white house has wanted to say about joe biden. but more than that, i think what this week has done so successfully and what biden did so well last night, he's married i'm a decent guy who has empathy with, by the way, i also have experience dealing with the problems you're going through right now. i felt if i was somebody who was not wanting to vote democrat particularly or not tuned in, one thing i would pick up in that speech is there is a plan for dealing with the virus, a

plan dealing with the pandemic, starting with national testing. for me that would have sounded incredibly reassuring. at a time i'm scared and confused and the country feels like it's in chaos. i think that's what biden did so well, i can govern and i'm decent and reasonable, put those together and it's a strong package for the democrats to sell. >> especially in a year where even when you talk to republicans that voted for donald trump in 2016, they talk about the sheer exhaustion and wanting to return to normalcy. i don't know they're going to flock to joe biden because the trump campaign wants people to think that joe biden is the tool of the far left, despite the fact the far left yesterday was quoted in "the new york times" that they were holding their nose voting for joe biden, one

colorful quote was i vomited in my mouth but i am holding it in to vote for joe biden. the left doesn't like joe biden. the far left on the democratic side doesn't like joe biden. so i don't know that that fight -- that that line of defense will work. but willie, john heileman, i couldn't help but notice john heileman is sitting in the hotel that joe biden announced his first run for the senate in 1972. and biden has just an extraordinary life story of highs and lows of successes and failures since that time, in 1972. personal heartbreak, so much so that it's hard for many of us to imagine how he has kept going. but he has kept going through his faith in god and just

because he thinks that those in his family would have died would want him to do just that. it is an extraordinary story, part of which we saw last night. >> and that was almost 50 years ago, that's a long political career. that's a long life. he's been through a lot. if you weren't familiar with joe biden's story and you sat and watched this week, you got the full idea of what he's been through, where he's been, culminating in that speech last night. i think if there's a criticism of joe biden last night and there was, conservatives were saying he read a good speech off the teleprompter, and he did it well but next come the debates, the first one on september 29th. we'll see how it's going to hold up when it's live, and there's no tell prompter he doesn't know

the questions coming at him and donald trump goes low. what's the preparation the campaign is doing for that? that's the next big moment in this campaign? >> willie, you got to say two things here. one is you can't dis this speech because he was reading it off the teleprompter. that's what a convention speech is, donald trump will be reading his too. let's be fair. that's the job he had to do last night. of course, it is also true that these debates are going to be incredibly consequential, they always are. more so in this case. aside from reagan a couple times this morning we're all thinking about what analogies might be suitable. the first debate may be the best analogy is the carter reagan debate in 1980, there was only one, and that was a debate that mattered more than any debate in modern political history, you have to go back to kennedy and

nixon to find one on par with it. the question in that race was ronald reagan had that race in his sights but there was still questions about whether reagan was a mad man, was a lunatic, was too far to the right, a cowboy, whatever. he had to put those final questions to rest in that debate and i think as you head towards this one, if we stay on the track we're on politically right now where biden has a wide national lead, substantial leads in most of, if not all of, the main battleground states you imagine there's going to be a lot of brutal combat between now and then. but you get to that debate. and if biden is still in that position, the country has decided it wants to fire donald trump. it's been evaluating joe biden as trump tries to discredit him, disqualify him, the country that needs to still decide will be looking at the debate saying is

joe biden an acceptable alternative, the stakes will be off the charts, the campaign has taken the debate seriously. they've been doing debate prep, starting it earlier than any campaign, not gone to debate camp but started the ground work earlier than any company because they understand what a big deal it's going to be. you can't overstate how important it's going to be. it's going to be a vast audience for those debates and that's where the pressure trifalls mosn joe biden. >> there's another parallel between the reagan and carter debate and what's coming up. leading up to that debate, the carter campaign and carter team turned ronald reagan into, as you said, a stark raving right wing lunatic starting world war

iii. expectations were so low all he had to do was go well, there you go, i'm a nice guy. and people are like, he doesn't look crazy, like he wants to nuke the world. so reagan so outpaced expectations. the low expectations put on him by his opponent that it was easy to score a huge win for reagan that night. now you have the same thing happening again but this time it's the republicans making the mistake. the republican campaign making the mistake, constantly talking about how crazy joe biden. how sleepy joe biden is. how out of it joe biden is. that's on their campaigns. they're cutting up tapes. they're finding -- again, the stupidity of donald trump's campaign doing this, just talk to comedy central about that. but mika, they're setting expectations so low for joe

biden in the debates that if he shows up there like he shows up last night then the trump campaign has done an extraordinary favor for him by lowering expectations so much that when he just steps over those low expectations he wins the expectations debate and wins the debate. same thing happened with reagan in 1980. >> i don't disagree with that. i just also am looking ahead to the full on assault that the republicans, that the trump campaign will put on biden's family, on kamala harris, and that will be another dynamic at play as well. still ahead on "morning joe," the 2016 democratic presidential nominee hillary clinton will be our guest. plus former white house chief strategist steve bannon is now the seventh trump associate to face criminal charges since the president took office. we'll discuss the fraud

allegations against him. but first, president trump tackles israel policy and his hatred for sharks in the same sentence. >> yes. of course -- >> you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. "morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪ book two separate qualifying stays and earn a free night. the open road is open again. and wherever you're headed, choice hotels is there. book direct at choicehotels.com.

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afghanistan will be down very shortly to 4,000 troops and that will come back shortly too. syria, we took them all out other than we -- we kept the oil, if that's okay with you. we kept the oil. we have some back. we should have kept the oil in iraq, too. remember i used to say, keep the oil. don't go in. don't go into iraq. i was a civilian, so nobody cared. i want to get that mosquito out of here. they'll say it's cruelty to animals. no, it's true. they were saying the other

night, sharks we have to protect them. i say wait a minute, they want to remove the seals in order to save the sharks. don't you have it the other way around? that's true. i'm not a big fan of sharks either. how many votes am i going to lose? i have people calling me up, sir we have a fund to save the shark. save the shark. no thank you. i have other things i can contribute to. i recognize israel's true capital, opened the embassy in jerusalem. and recognized israel and its sovereignty over the go lan heights. >> i just have to correct a couple things here. first of all, donald trump -- >> correct? >> -- you can talk about the lunacy of it all -- >> it would have been frivolous and fun if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic. >> the lie that he opposed the war in iraq when that's just a lie. you know, he, of course, tries to have it both ways.

he talks back and forth. but in his 2000 book, he talked about maybe needing to go in and attack iraq because of their nuclear program. wrote that in his book, which he can't escape from, the day after the invasion he talked about how iraq was a tremendous military success. and later in the year, in december of 2003, he said, we're there, we need to stay there, we need to win the war. so yeah, mika, he's -- there was -- in between all the bizarre rantings about mosquitos and sharks, there is a fact check that he keeps lying about being against the war in iraq. >> and willie, i heard a crowd there. wonder if we know someone who might have been there who could tell us were they squished together, were they social distancing, were they wearing

masks and how big was the crowd? >> i love the idea that someone cold called the president of the united states, got to him in the oval office and said we're with the shark group, do you want to donate to the sharks and he said no thank you and slammed the phone. the president confirming what stormy daniels told us in an interview that he does not like sharks. they were in a bun ga low in beverly hills and they were watching shark week and he went on and on how much he hated sharks. >> good point. >> let's bring in jonathan lemire, white house reporter for the associated press. you were on the trip, you can get into sharks and mosquitos if you like, but what was the event like? as joe biden was looking to the future and painting an optimistic future. the president going into the

carnage saying if joe biden is president, we'll see more of portland. we should point out this is president trump's america right now. >> his dislike for sharks is well known in the same 30 sendings he came out against mosquitos and sharks. but later admitted his desire for more water pressure in the shower. anti-shark and mosquito and pro-water pressure is pretty potent platform. yesterday the president was just outside of scranton, an effort at in your face counter-programming. a troll move to try to rattle joe biden on the day of his speech. he delivered it in front of a couple hundred people who were, mika, i would say, half wearing masks. not totally socially distanced, main three or four feet rather than six. this is what we're seeing now. the campaign has abandoned the

efforts to have large rallies instead smaller events. this was outdoors where he can get in front of a couple hundred people, this was a campaign event not an official white house event and deliver his rally speech, spoke for over an hour. we showed lighter moments there perhaps in terms of his stances on members of the animal kingdom. this was a speech he hit a lot of dark notes. a real contrast from the light focus that joe biden made the center of his speech hours later. including talking about the state of bloodshed and anarchy in a couple of american cities. let's listen to a few moments right now. >> joe biden is a puppet of the radical left movement that seeks to destroy the american way of life. and they're going to waste the money on the green new deal. you know what you get out of

that? nothing. nothing. except debt and death. if you want a vision of your life under biden presidency, think of the smoldering ruins in minneapolis, the violent anarchy of portland, the bloodstained sidewalks of chicago and imagine the mayhem coming to your town and every single town in america. you're not going to have law and order. secure your ballot, absentee ball lots are good but where th take millions of ballots all over the place, grab it, put it in a big pile. so this is a way they're trying to steal the election. and everybody knows that because the only way they're going to win is by a rigged election. i really believe that. they want to cancel you, totally cancel you, take your job, turn your family against you for speaking your mind while they indoctrinate your children with

twisted, twisted world views that nobody ever thought possible. >> and it's these themes that we've heard more and more from the president in recent days. trying to paint joe biden as a puppet of the radical left trying to signature the violence we've seen in american cities, which currently donald trump is president of those cities would be more widespread were joe biden to take office and, joe, most importantly perhaps that sound bite we played there, again suggesting the only way he could lose this election is if it were rigged or stolen. said something similar in wisconsin on monday. we heard him talk about mail-in voting, with no evidence there would be widespread fraud. he's sowing the ground work, trying to plant the seeds for chaos this november. >> so interesting that he -- it's exactly what he did -- john

dickerson dug up an interview with reince priebus four years ago this time and donald trump was talking the same thing four years ago, a rigged election and he wasn't going to acknowledge hillary clinton as the victor until he had time after the election to do that. this is just the way he plays the game. it's fascinating he used the words debt and death, katty kay. i think i might stay away from those two words if i were donald trump. talk about american carnage, look at the cities erupting in violence as the president tried to stir up racialanimus, as he's been doing four years. this is the president's america, he broke it, he owns it. i guess we know what the american carnage speech was about, because when he delivered it, crime was at a 50 year low. illegal crossings across the

southern border is at a 50 year low. there's no lies, conspiracy theories that can be spread around. look at trump's own government websites and they'll show you when he delivered the american carnage speech all of that was at a 50 year low. now we are here three and a half, almost four years later, and he talks about death and debt. america's debt at record highs. deficits exploded to record highs. and death, what are we at now, 175,000 dead from a pandemic that donald trump said was one person coming in from china and would go away. >> you give corporations a $2 trillion tax cut and you end up with bigger debt and that's where we are under donald trump after four years. i don't think the president is very good at reading polls. somebody is not getting to him about his poll numbers or he is not listening.

we've seen a little tightening of the polls over the last two or three weeks, a slight tapering in the covid cases and it looked until yesterday's numbers that the economy may be doing better. when things are doing better in the country, when the virus is doing better in the country, it seems donald trump's fortunes perform better. when there is huge division in the country and he is stoking his base and talking about american carnage and talking about death and debt, and sounding so dark his approval ratings grow worse. i don't know why he's not able to see those two things going together. get the virus fixed, get the economy moving a little bit better and i will start performing better. it's an equation he seems incapable of doing so he reverts to the base, the carnage talk and that's when he does worse in the polls. >> he's been incapable of doing it from the beginning. even the inaugural address, it

was surprising that a guy gets elected and starts talking about how horrific everything is, when crime was at a 50 year low when he took over. now look at cities across america. illegal border crossings were also at a 50 year low. look at what's happened over the past three and a half years at the southern border, it's been absolute chaos. i'm curious as we talk about a positive message, john heileman, versus a negative message, what are you looking at as republicans get ready for their convention and are they going to be able to pull off what the democrats were able to pull off by actually, after the first couple of hours, making it look seamless? >> well, they have one big advantage, joe, in they got to watch democrats do it. part of the degree of difficulty for democrats was they had to do

it without precedent and now i'm sure the republican media operatives and the people at the rnc, the television producers involved, have been studying this democratic convention and they're i'm sure scrambling. that convention was in more disarray than the democratic convention. trump took it from charlotte, to jacksonville, had to cancel jacksonville now it's sort of in charlotte, but the first couple days are in charlotte and then shifts focus to washington d.c. and the president going to finish the whole thing on the white house lawn we're told. i think there's the question of how the production will go. so greater disarray but at least they have a model to look at. we'll see how it turns out. the interesting thing is to go back and look at the 2016 convention. and in -- if you look at the cone ven convention they did in cleveland. this was before american carnage

in the inaugural speech. if you go back to trump's, that speech was memorable, i remember us talking about it at the time, it was easily the darkest speech any nominee had given in our lifetime. it was stunning how dark the speech was. >> so dark. >> and that was when you would have thought that trump would have been a more optimistic figure at least when he was just seizing control of the republican party. imagine now how dark the speech is going to be, and given the main political objective now, which is to destroy joe biden, i'm expecting and i think the biden campaign is expecting a week of unrelenting, ceaseless negativity that will probably cross a lot of boundaries. you saw hunter biden last night at the convention, will they potentially go after beau biden

and not just hunter biden. the biden campaign is braced for there being no limits whatsoever, no boundaries and that donald trump next week and his allies will say and do anything to begin the process of tearing down what joe biden built up over the course of the week. >> jonathan, you've got reporting on what's in store next week. i heard it's going to be pretty ugly. >> i think john is right, we should prepare ourselves for some dark themes. this has been the focus of the president in recent weeks and they have previewed that will be the case next week as well. plans are still coming together in terms of the mechanics of next week. it will be d.c. based. there's one day centered in charlotte, delegates are meeting there. there's an expectation the president will swing by, make a trip to north carolina, but that will be during the day, not a part of the prime time events and then the focus is at the

nation's capital. the first lady is expected to speak from the rose garden, the vice president will speak likely at fort mchenry, not far from here. and the president from the south lawn. the president has insisted the speeches be live. he was pointed and critical of michelle obama who taped her speech in advance. he wants the major set pieces to be done live ideally in front of some people. there is expectation and hope per the white house to have people gathered to hear the president's speech that thursday, whether they're on the south lawn or perhaps the mall, we know they have a fireworks permit, so we should expect that f after president trump wraps up his speaking. but there's a sense they don't have some of the heavy weights, the alums the democrats had. there are no ex-presidents speaking next week. >> they're all against him. >> bill clinton was there, barack obama was there, michelle

obama. there will not be appearance by george w. bush. >> they have the couple with the guns. >> they do have the st. louis couple with the guns. >> they don't have former presidents but they have the people arrested for wielding guns at protesters. >> at black lives matter. >> when joe was talking about the 2016 convention, i couldn't help but flash back to -- by the way, thank you jonathan lemire. if jonathan looked disoriented it's because the red sox won the baseball game last night. >> that's two in a row. >> i think about the lock her up chants and the people arrested and convicted that were leading the lock her up chants, it's really remarkable. this is -- i have avoided saying it to this point but you look at the people around the president

who have been arrested and convicted it's a criminal enterprise, and it has been a criminal enterprise. and the one thing that really nobody talked about to the degree i thought they would after the report was that the republican-led intel committee sent two criminal referrals to two other people close to this president. >> yeah. we're going to look into all of this. >> family members. >> coming up president trump tries to distance himself from the border wall funding scheme that now has steve bannon indicted on fraud charges. can't really do that. we'll tell you why next on "morning joe." >> how good is ernie, right? is he great? ernie holmes, heavyweight champ, the champ. lowery. sorry about that.

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the latest from the lincoln project as the number of trump associates who have been charged with crimes grew yesterday. steve bannon, who once served as chief strategist for president trump, was arrested yesterday and charged with fraud for his alleged involvement in raising private funds to build a wall on the mexican border. >> who could have ever guessed that that would lead to trouble? wait, actually, there were a lot of people saying that. >> a lot of people knew mexico wasn't going to pay for it. bannon who was taken into custody on a yacht docked in connecticut worked with three others in an online fund-raising campaign called we build the wall. >> by the way, willie, when they come for us, i think it's safe to say that is not how they will find us. >> not on a yacht. >> on a 100 foot yacht.

>> a chinese billionaire's yacht? >> probably not. probably not. it'll be in a dark, dank corner in an off-track betting site north of yonkers. >> you'll also find video of don junior doing events with these guys and thanking them for all their work and saying this is good old fashioned capitalism. the four allegedly raised $25 million from donors by falsely promising that 100% of their money would be set aside to build new sections of the border wall. according to the 24-page indictment, bannon and three others are accused of misappropriating millions of dollars for personal use and charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering.

bannon was arraigned in a manhattan federal court where he pleaded not guilty before being released on a $5 million bond and was ordered to surrender his passport and confine his travel to connecticut, new york and washington d.c. here's how president trump reacted. >> i feel very badly. i haven't been dealing with him for a long period of time, as most of the people in this room know. he was involved in our campaign, he worked for goldman sachs. he worked for a lot of companies. but he was involved like wise in our campaign for a small part of the administration very early on. i haven't been dealing with him at all. i know nothing about the project other than when i read about it i didn't like it. i said this is for government, this isn't for private people and it sounded to me like showboating and i think i let my opinion be strongly stated at the time, i didn't like it, it was showboating and maybe looking for funds but you have

to see what happens. i think it's a very sad thing for mr. bannon. i think it's surprising. >> and he wishes him well. >> john heileman, i mean, you got to call this at this had point. it looks like a criminal enterprise. >> good lord. >> campaign manager convicted, federal crimes. his deputy campaign manager convict of federal crimes. his foreign policy adviser convicted of federal crimes. his national security advisor convicted of federal crimes. his long-time lawyer and fixer convicted of federal crimes. his long-time political adviser convicted of federal crimes. his -- what do you call -- bannon, wasn't he campaign manager? his chief strategist is now

arrested. and then went into the white house and was -- worked in the white house. in fact, it was bannon and trump who, you know, those first months worked in the white house and were there alone late at night. we know this because his aides were so concerned by the fact that bannon and trump were just sort of bouncing around in the white house by themselves for months in early part of the administration. >> yeah. i mean, look, joe, it's a stunning record. criminal enterprise, they, you know -- people have to have talked about trump's looking like a mob family for a long time. it's looking more like not just a mob family but a family full of stupid mobsters. you look at the way they set this thing up, this bannon enterprise, they were asking people to get caught. they told donors they were going

to put 100% of the money into the cause, building the wall. no charity would make that claim. a real charitable operation. you might say you're going to be efficient with the use of funds. we never say 100% of your dollars go towards this cause. there's no charity on this earth that meets that standard which opens them up to legal liability. the point about bannon on the yacht, i think there's more to look at here. this yacht owned by not just a chinese billionaire but one of the most wanted fugitives in china, steve bannon, who is the populist economic -- who has been the china hawk to end all china hawks in the administration who is apparently close enough to some chinese multimillionaire -- or billionaire fugitive. he's not just this -- people have been confuse about this. i know -- it's not like he

was -- it wasn't like he was floating around long island sound here. he's been on a pleasure trip bannon has been basically living on this yacht for months during the pandemic. he's basically been living on long island sound on the boat for weeks upon weeks which is why he looked so tan and jesus with the hair cut yesterday when he came out of jail. so i want to know, how steve bannon is in bed with a chinese billionaire fugitive when you're the ultimate china hawk and you're stealing money from these maga dopes who gave their money to this thing thinking it was going to go to build a border wall. the cynicism is stratospheric, incalculable and kind of hilarious. >> i think what john is getting at is this larger point here not the specific fraud of conspiracy and mail fraud we're going to get into in a moment but the

larger fraud perpetrated on trump supporters that he chanted we're going to build the wall, get mexico to pay for it. he becomes president partly on that promise, he can't get it done. so another group comes in and says because the president can't get this done we're going to start a private enterprise as donald trump jr. called it, private enterprise at its best and take your money. give us millions of dollars which they did, we'll get the wall built. they didn't do that, instead they're on yachts, cosmetic surgery is part of the claim. there's more. for people who claim to be supporters, the forgotten man and populist as john said this is the an at this time cyst of this. >> you have for years

conservatives talking about the scam that donald trump is perpetrating on this party. and also, what people like steve bannon are doing, mika. you look at it and see -- you look at what wayne lapierre turned the nra into, basically a cash machine for himself and his family, and a small group of board members around him. so millions of americans that were giving to the nra thinking that they were protecting second amendment rights, they were actually just paying for wayne lapierre and his buddy's extraordinary lifestyle, extravagant lifestyle in washington d.c. same thing with jerry falwell jr., evangelicals duped into

listening to this guy and following this guy and now, of course, you have steve bannon and it is just the height of cynicism. we're going to build the wall that mexico is going to pay for, you just need to give us your money. it's remarkable. >> it points to the cult-like nature of this. who gives money to a campaign for a president or foundation that's supporting a president's policy of building a wall that the president promised mexico was going to pay for and campaigned on that, who gives large amounts of money? that's someone so taken in they just don't even care. this is pretty sick. we are just past the top of the hour. we're going to get to the massive night last night, democratic national convention, joe biden's speech, which has been widely praised on both sides of the aisle. but first, let's continue this conversation with state attorney for palm beach county dave

aronberg and reporter tom winter. tom, if you could go through exactly what happened, exactly what the charges are and also the timing is interesting. i'm interested in these criminal referrals to other members of trump's administration and the timing given the election, if that strikes you in way. >> i think this is part of a world of hurt for steve bannon, it was barely 24 hours ago, literally when this time yesterday morning that the u.s. coast guard vessel and a helicopter were over the 152 yacht owned by the chinese billionaire as you were discussing and he was taken into custody ten minutes from now yesterday. this is something that developed quickly. i think when you look at steve bannon's legal world at this point, mika, you're looking at a legal world that there's serious questions about that chinese billionaire, what he's been up to. there have been complaints made

to local police departments of people claiming they've been swindled out of half a million dollars from that individual. and steve bannon has been, as you've just been discussing, has been paling around with him for the last several months and somebody that steve bannon has been with. so i think there's serious questions about that person. there are the criminal referrals you mentioned in the senate intelligence committee report this week, looking at russia asking whether or not steve bannon told the truth to congress when he testified. so there are questions swirling around on that chinese billionaire, those complaints to local police departments were referred to the fbi and based on public documents we were able to obtain yesterday that's an investigation going on since june. i think for steve bannon it's a real problem. you all were talking about it, it was a week ago i was on here talking with you joe about the nra and the self dealing and

what was going on as far as people taken advantage of. in yesterday's indictment, it said some of the donors wrote directly to the person who ran this build the wall foundation saying they did not have a lot of money and were skeptical about online fund-raising campaigns but they were giving what they could because of the assurances made by the foundation. when you read that, it's heartbreaking and sad that people were hoodwinked by these people. does steve bannon need the money to pay for his personal expenses out of people's hard earned cash? this indictment raises a lot of questions about his behavior. >> yeah. >> tom you bring up such a great point. you have people that gave what little they had for a cause they really believed in. it reminded me when my grandma, years and years ago, decades ago, would send in $25 checks out of her social security to jim and tammy faye baker and my

parents and the rest of us would beg her not to do it, of course, they were swindlers as well. and unfortunately with the nra you see that happening with the national nra and jerry falwell jr. and here. we've seen the list, all of them arrested and then eventually guilty of federal crimes. a lot of us in the news media have just sort of breezed over what may be one of the most remarkable parts of a senate republican led intel committee report and that is the republican led intel committee sent two criminal referrals out on members of donald trump's family. >> right. >> what do you know about jared

kushner and don junior's criminal referrals? again, sent out, not by partisan, but from a republican-led senate intel committee. >> i think, you know, particularly when it involves a crime such as lying to congress, that's not something that takes a tremendous amount of investigation, i'm curious to hear where those investigations are going, where they're at, how seriously they were looked at, what the underlying evidence might be that they lied. it appears, based on some of the information contained in the report, and you bring up a good point, joe, this week it probably didn't get the attention it deserved post mueller in the middle of a democratic convention. but there were a number of revelations in the report about paul manafort, contacts with a russian intelligence operative that will probably, over time, get more attention and get a closer look. so i think when you look at the criminal referrals, those are

serious. and it would be interesting to know what is going on at the department of justice with respect to the referrals and where the cases might be headed. to a point i think mika was trying to get to earlier the justice department stays away from making indictments and what could be seen as political type of statements and indictments within about 60 days of the election. that's not a hard and fast rule, that's been a memo that came out by ag holder was the last real guidance we received on that. bill barr has made it clear there be no investigations that would be political in nature or any sort of ramifications on the presidential for either democratic or republican candidates, that would pass his desk without his approval. so it'll be interesting to see where that goes going forward. >> it is fascinating, mika, again, though that you had mueller passing don junior and jared kushner when there seemed to be evidence, at least

republicans on the senate intel committee believe it, that they had committed crimes. but mueller passed on it, maybe he thought it was just too hot to handle politically. and now you have the senate intel committee, republicans on the senate intel committee sending out similar criminal referrals that are just on stand by. it will be fascinating to see what the justice department is doing. i think what tom said makes a lot of sense. obviously nothing should happen between now and the election at this point. just too hot politically. i'm just curious why they passed upon them earlier. >> yeah. the timing could be interesting. maybe -- well, we'll leave it there. also yesterday a new york federal judge has dismissed the latest attempt by the president's attorneys to prevent the release of his financial records. district judge victor miraro

said the team failed to show the subpoena to the president's accountant was issued in bad faith. dave, what's next? if donald trump's tax returns are ever going to be seen, how many more legal steps does this need to go through? >>mika, people were wondering when the trump legal team put out this crazy argument of absolute immunity that they knew was going to lose because it has no basis in the law to see why they do it? you see why they did it. instead of challenging the grand jury subpoenas on the normal grounds they're overbroad or asking for irrelevant stuff they went for a home run by trying to get absolute immunity that would protect the president no matter what he did at any time, that was a loser, he lost 7-2. but he wins because it creates more delays in the system. it goes back to the district

court which yesterday then heard the standard objections to the subpoenas they were overbroad and had irrelevant requests. he lost at that level. now it goes to the appellate court and then back to the u.s. supreme court. so this is an occasion where the president wins by losing because he will lose this court fight. the district attorney of manhattan will get his tax returns but not until well after the november election, which was president trump's plan from the beginning. even after he gets those tax returns they only become public, only to grand jury secrecy laws if they are used as evidence in a criminal case. that may happen, but not any time soon. >> so what are the consequences for the president actually not having absolute immunity here? i was for some reasons that i think most people in the audience would know, i actually called some of the best lawyers -- well, i actually -- people who tell me they're the best at liable lawyers in

washington and new york, they both said, no, the president has absolutely immunity, even from liable statements i had one write me back after this decision saying this changes everything. do you think, dave, this really does pierce this belief that a sitting president does have absolute immunity from civil charges, from criminal charges? >> joe, a sitting president has never had absolute immunity. that was a fiction created by the trump legal team to try to build in a delay in his tax return fight. and so, the thinking that the president is actually immune from civil or criminal liability is counter to our belief that no one is above the law. think about it, if the president really has absolute immunity, that means he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not only not be convicted for it,

not be put on trial but not be investigated. if you add it to the fact that the president says he cannot be impeached because he said that would be overthrowing an election, then the president can't be convicted, investigated, impeached, that would make him a king and that is not what the founders of our country ever wanted. >> no, it is not. dave aronberg and tom winter, thank you both. we want to turn back to joe biden's big night at the dnc last night. joining us we have msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. politics and journalism professor and an msnbc political contributor, jason johnson. donny deutsch is with us. and historian john meacham.

his new biography of john lewis entitled "his truth is marching on," comes out next week. and you may have seen his remarks at the dnc last night. >> this is a grave moment in america, a deadly virus is ravaging us, our jobs are evaporating, our faith in the things that bind us together is fraying, our democracy is under assault from an incumbent more interested in himself than us. extremism, nativism, isolationism and a lack of economic opportunity for working people are all preventing us from realizing our nation's promise. so we must decide whether we will continue to be prisoners of the darkest of american forces or will we free ourselves to write a brighter, better, nobler story. that's the issue of this election. a choice that goes straight to the nature of the soul of america.

>> not since reagan stood at the br brandenberg gate have americans been so stirred. >> i thought it was amazing. >> it was amazing. john meacham i have to ask this question that other people are asking. very close. you've been very close to the pu bush family. very close to republicans throughout your life, and democrats throughout your life. that's quite a change for you. you have not stepped out on the line politically in all the years that i've known you, and again -- in fact, you've been more associated with the bush family over the past five, ten years than anybody else. why did you do that last night? why was it important for you to do that? >> the choice is clear, right. as john lewis taught us, if you see something, say something. and what we all see is what we all spend so much time talking

about and thinking about, which is that the things that make the country worth defending, that make it worth the struggle toward a more perfect union, however flawed we are are under assault. and as the vice president said last night, democracy is on the ballot. it's a moment of great crisis and crisis in greek remember it comes from health care. crisis was the moment in a disease when the patient lived or died. that's the origin of crisis coming into the vernacular. and so i've been friendly with vice president biden for a long time, he asked if i would do this, and my sense was, which is what i believe so i'm going to say it. i'm not a democrat. i'm not a republican either. i voted for both parties. and i just think that when the

evidence of our own eyes is so compelling, which is that this president is disastrous for democracy with a lower case d, we have an obligation to do what we can. and so, i sat in my interactive dork office, as you saw there, and said what i thought. i want you to know, willie was crying. he sent me a face time thing with the tears coming down. it was very touching. >> it was very moving. >> but the other thing, quickly, joe, you and i share this i think. i was born too late to be genuinely tested by the great questions of the 20th century in terms of race and so i was born four years after selma, right.

>> right. >> i like to think if i had been born in 1939 instead of 1969, that i would have been on the right side of that. but i don't know that. right. we all like to tell ourselves that we would do the right thing in a moral, political, cultural moment of decision. but i don't know. so here we're in one, and at least i know what i'm doing now. and i feel completely at home with it. find a little thing, neither the vice president nor anyone associated with the campaign asked me to change a word. they can't ask me to mention him. he said you have a few minutes i want you to define the soul of america, we're talking about it a lot, i want you to tell us what you think it is. and that was it. >> interesting.

>> it's interesting what you said about being born in the south, being born too late to make those decisions. i think for many of us southerners born late, i was born in '63 we moved to meridian, mississippi my first year in school and that was the first year that schools were integrated and for me integration was normal and there was no opportunity to know how we all would have responded. and i would hope that, like you, i would have responded in an honorable way. willie, i think over the past four or five years, as donald trump has talked about muslim bans, as donald trump has talked after charlottesville about good people on both sides, as donald trump has done, especially over the past several months done everything he can do to gin up

racial animus and conflict, i do think this election especially is a time for choosing and a time for choosing without -- you know, without hyperbole. it's pretty straightforward and we have two very distinct paths that we can go on coming out of this election. whether you love joe biden from the left or from the right or not. >> yeah, it pains me to pay john a sincere compliment, but i have to do it here. it was a beautifully written, delivered speech last night. i had a friend text me, you know john, right? i said, yeah. he said, do you think he would prerecord my eulogy? might be a new enterprise for you john. >> i like it. >> i'm curious, gene robinson

about what you thought sitting, listening to joe biden. some people say there wasn't a lot of policy there, but that's not what these speeches are about, it's about what john and joe were talking about. for a lot of people in the country, a message joe biden has tried to put out the last several months is a visceral thing. how do you feel about the country right now? how do you feel when you wake up and look at your phone? how do you feel about how divided we are right now? how do you feel about the most powerful person waking up every day trying to divide the country? i can take us in a different place. yes, he had some policy ideas, he wants to get people back to work, talked about jobs. yes, he had ideas about a national testing program. but bigger than that, is how do you feel and do you want to change the way you feel? >> that's exactly what the speech was about, i think. first let me say to john meacham, you were ready for your close up, well done, john.

that was -- >> thank you. >> -- striking and remarkable. you did it very well. the biden speech, he sounded like a president. he sounded like the way we're used to having presidents sound. and so, you look at the political dimension of it, right, he demolishes the line of attack that they had been trying to -- that trump and the republicans had been trying to take genagainst him that he's somehow senile or some far left antifa grandpa or whatever they're claiming. no, he's joe biden, the same joe biden he's always been. but you heard the passion of a man who has given his life to public service, who cares deeply about this country. and who knows that we are, as meacham said, at a moment of

crisis, whether the patient lives or dies. and he's offering a way forward. he's offering a way to get past this ugly point in our history. and what his speech did was what the whole convention did over four nights, which was invite people in, invite people who are republicans, once were republicans, invite the entire political spectrum to come join him in the project of rebuilding the parts of our democracy that donald trump has been demolishing and in getting past these overlapping crises that aren't getting better because the current president is incapable of making them better. so we'll get past the pandemic. we'll get past the economic

crisis. we'll get past and hopefully to a better place on this discussion that we're having about systemic racism and he was reassuring people, we've done this sort of thing before, it can be done but we have to take the first step. and we have to get past the election. and i thought it was a speech of joe biden's life and you can feel the passion, you can feel this was his moment. and he delivered. i thought it was a spectacular speech. >> and what's fascinating is you did, as we said last hour, he had people from the left and right who said this was the speech of joe biden's life and he delivered well. knocked it out of the park. here's some of joe biden's

speech talking about those crises that john meacham mentioned. >> no generation ever knows what history will ask of it. all we can ever know is whether we're ready when that moment arrives. now history has delivered us to one of the most difficult moments america has ever faced. four historic crises all at the same time. a perfect storm. the worst pandemic in over 100 years. the worst economic crisis since the great depression. the most compelling call for racial justice since the '60s and the undeniable -- just the accelerating threats of climate change. so the question for us is simple. are we ready? i believe we are. we must be. >> jason, i've already said it. and i will look on this much

more positively than i'm sure you. i thought it was -- i thought it was a reagan-esque type of speech. you know, we republicans always would make fun of democratic speeches, the 1984 speech in san francisco, where we talk about san francisco democrats and it seemed like one sound bite to one special interest, another sound bite to another special interest. and it seemed like so many speakers in the democratic party would, again, be going down a laundry list they knew they had to check off. last night's speech i thought soared, like a lot of conservatives did and democrats did, soared because it was about themes. it was about broad, general themes that donald trump's republican party can't talk about any more because they were optimistic themes. you can sum up biden's speech by saying that he believes that

america's greatest days truly do lie ahead, a reagan line. what a contrast between that and donald trump's continued vision of american carnage and what a choice for voters. >> joe, i got to say that the build up in the day's news, and john meacham is a part of this, to joe biden was perfect. what a lot of america, in particular white america was facing heading up to the joe biden speech is okay we've been fooled again. all these people who gave this money to build a wall, people caught up in the kpeen phobia and fear of the trump administration they have been bamboozled again. and then you get what john meacham said, which is okay, i don't know what i would have done 60 years ago but i know the decision i have to make now, what do i do? and joe biden comes in at the end and says i can take you there. come with me and i'll get us

there. i know it's hard, i know it's complicated, frustrating, i know these issues aren't what we thought we'd have to face but i'm the guy, take my hand and i'll take you through. the speech captured what a lot of americans are worried about today, particularly white americans, and he showed he's the guy to take us through everything, all the groups of people. >> let's bring in donny deutsch who looks like he was on the yacht with steve bannon. donny, i want you to talk to us about -- again, you focused on what consumers want over your entire lifetime and you've been through so many focus groups and sold products, it seemed to me that we have two distinct

choices now, and it is a choice between optimism and somebody who sounds presidential, as gene said, and yet, another half of america who is pessimistic, who does buy into a resentment fuelled political argument, and who don't believe that america is moving in a positive direction. how does that contrast play out between, again, joe biden's reagan-esque themes and donald trump's american carnage theme? >> it's compassion versus fear. and by the way, next week, trump is going to paint a picture of this country you would think there are flames burning everywhere, people with machetes running through the street. that's all they have left is

fear on that side, which is a very, very powerful notion to hit. but what biden was about last night was compassion. i think people buy compassion over fear most days of the week. when he talked about the 170,000 families and brought it back to his own family and his own loss. it wasn't a number all of a sudden, it was 170,000 actual families and how families had been destroyed, the compassion, i want to go back a little bit before his speech, that little boy who had been overcoming stuttering who biden worked with, that is -- just watching that little boy fight through and persevere is kind of anthemic, you talk about the soul of america, that boy fighting through, coming through adversity, all of us rooting for him is what this country is about. and donald trump is the antithesis of that, rooting against. i was proud watching biden last

night. joe your set up in terms of what is this country buying, at the end of the day we'll see who we are and i believe we are more about that little boy fighting through and we're all rooting together for him than rooting against. if we're not, we're in a lot of trouble. but i was hopeful last night. if anybody didn't see that, please look that up -- >> that was so moving. >> -- that's who we are, that little boy, and that's who joe biden is fighting for. >> katty kay, one thing i don't understand. donald trump continuing to talk about how bad america is, continuing to cling to american carnage, going into his convention talking about how america is filled with blood shed in cities and chaos across the nation and a pourous southern border that would be as

effective as me attacking "morning joe" and saying how terrible "morning joe" has gotten over the past four years. he's responsible. it's trump's country. law and order doesn't work in 2020 like it did in '68 because nixon wasn't the incumbent in '68. trump is in 2020. >> right. that's the logical interpretation when he slams the cities with the problems and said there's carnage on the streets. it's your problem because you've held it. trump is talking to a small group of the country, somewhere around 25, 30%. and he feels the most important thing to him is to remiebd thnd how terrible the situation is and the implication is it's going to get worse if the democrats take control. if the democrats take control you have this terrible carnage and the supporters take him to

the base play, ha he's been doing the last four years, there is mayhem on the streets and i am the only person that can fix it. i think that the one thing that joe biden can think that he took away from that speech is that he came across as eminently reasonable. i don't think there are many people left in the country to persuade. most people made up their minds. but he gave to people who might be, i don't know if i can be bothered, a road map out of this. i mean, as donny was saying, you take your hand, i'll show you how to get there. i have the plan on covid. i have the plan on the economy. it's all reasonable. for a country kind of suffering from ptsd, a little bit of reasonable planning -- it's good to know there's a plan right? because at the moment i feel there's chaos over covid. i like the idea there's a national plan. and i think that could be

appealing to people who may think, if i can be bothered to vote, may not be inspired but if there's a road map out of this, please give us something. >> john meacham, i think also for many americans who aren't sure what they're going to do, joe biden promises a return to normalcy, and i wonder, in this age of economic crisis and this age of pandemic where our lives, our culture, our economy has turned upside down, i wonder how powerful that message will prove to be in november, that return to normalcy, we wanted to shake things up in 2016, we wanted to bring in an outsider, a lot of americans said that didn't work. now let's have a return to normalcy. i don't know how persuasive of a message has that been throughout

history? >> well, the first use of it, it worked back 100 years ago. but i would -- can i revise and extend that a little bit? >> sure. >> i think it's really -- i think it'sless normalcy because normalcy wasn't all that great for everybody, right? it was good if you looked like me or like you, but a normal america is not an america that is there for everyone and therefore true to the founding promise and bringing things to everybody. i think it's less a return to normalcy and more a reinvigoration of decency. he's just a decent guy, right? that's what we've seen for four nights and what everybody who's known him has seen forever. you know, he's not franklin roosevelt. he's not george washington. but he's a decent, fair-minded

man, who wants the best parts of us to have a better chance against the worst parts of us because the worst parts of us have been prevailing since 2016. and it's a constant struggle. it's a constant fight. one election is not going to fix this. nothing in a fallen world is going to fix this forever. what is politics but the struggle for temporary dominion between conflicting interests and right now those two interests are hope versus fear and light versus dark and decency versus exclusion. and if the good parts of that can get temporary dominion through joe biden winning, then we have a better chance for a brighter period ahead. it's just about decency. >> john meacham, thank you so

much. and still ahead on "morning joe," senate majority leader mitch mcconnell rejects the president's claim that mail-in voting will lead to election fraud. we'll discuss that as the postmaster general prepares to testify before the senate today. plus 2016 presidential democratic nominee and former secretary of state hillary clinton will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. oe." we will be right back. book two separate qualifying stays and earn a free night. the open road is open again. and wherever you're headed, choice hotels is there. book direct at choicehotels.com. shingles doesn't care. i logged 10,000 steps today. shingles doesn't care. i get as much fresh air as possible. good for you, but shingles doesn't care. because 1 in 3 people will get shingles, you need protection. but no matter how healthy you feel,

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that's the kind of leader our service members deserve, one who understands the risks they face and who would actually protect them by doing his job as commander in chief. instead, they have a coward in chief who won't stand up to vladimir putin, read his daily intelligence briefings or even publically admonish adversaries for reportedly putting bounties on our troop's heads.

joe biden would never let tyrants manipulate him like a puppet, pervert our military to stroke his own ego. >> that's senator tammy duckworth of illinois speaking at the democratic convention last night. she is a retired army colonel who flew helicopter missions in the iraq war and recipient of the purple heart. senator duckworth, thanks for being with us last night. we saw joe biden echoing a sentiment there, he was probably at his an griiest when he talked about alleged bounties on american troops. what does it tell you about president trump as a command erin chief that he was not willing to bring that up on phone calls repeatedly with vladimir putin? >> well, he's a failed commander in chief in my book. any commander knows that you put

your troops first and this president has continually put russia and vladimir putin first before the well being of his troops. he's not a commander. he's failed. he's failed in the most basic of his duties. >> so senator, some critics of joe biden when they look at his long record on foreign policy point to his vote on the iraq war, he's not alone in voting for that war among democrats what do you make of his foreign policy war generally? do you view him as an interventionist, as something else? how do you look at his foreign policy? >> i think at this point in our nation where donald trump has turned us into a pyorrhea among nations, walking away from international accords and agreements and associations, i think joe biden's long history and expertise in foreign affairs is going to help our nation regain its place in the world and regain not just the trust but our leadership role that is needed on a global stage.

so i think having joe biden in the white house will actually allow america to lead the free world as we used to do, instead of being a nation that is scorned by our former allies. >> so so many levels i completely understand how you feel. and what irsyou are saying, senator. but i think right now we have a large portion of the country that doesn't hear any of this. doesn't want to hear. is tuned out. and is voting for trump. so how do we -- how do you, and how do we, those who are worried about our democracy, compel them to open their minds and perhaps see things from a different point of view? because your comments make a lot of sense, but i don't think it's getting to the folks who are voting for trump. i don't think they're hearing you. >> i think the members of our military are hearing me, those that did vote for trump because they are appalled, appalled that

he would use the military against americans peacefully exercising their democratic constitutionally guaranteed rights. that part of the message was directly aimed at the military because they know that the military is a part of american institution that needs to be apolitical. the other thing i think joe biden did himself last night was he spoke to americans who were struggling across this country. it's not about whether you voted for trump or not. if you are right now struggling because one of -- somebody in your family is out of a job and you may not be able to make that next rent payment or mortgage payment, all the parents out there are terrified of this decision they have to make do i send my child back to school and potentially face a deadly global pandemic or do i keep them at home and face them potentially falling behind at school, i'm faced with that choice myself. so we have to speak with people where they are. and americans are struggling and hurting across this great nation and there's a way out of the

crisis and joe biden will lead them. >> katty kay? >> there are 70-odd days to go. going into the convention we saw the polls tightening a little bit. next week the republicans have the chance to dominate the airwaves and get their attention. what worries you, what keeps you up at night? >> what keeps me up at night is postal service, donald trump has done everything he can to undermine mail-in voting. i voted by mail from iraq in a combat zone. it was good enough for our troops in a combat zone, it's good enough for all of us. and donald trump is trying to undermine the election. and now even though the postal service says they're putting the machines back and not trying to slow down the mail and now this morning we wake up to news that, in fact, the postal service issued orders not to put the high speed mail sorting machines back into service. so we see a real determined

effort by the trump administration to undermine a very basic fundamental right of all americans, and that is the ability to volt. ability to vote. >> senator tammy duckworth, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. the senator just mentioned one of the toughest issues facing parents across the country. and now a new ad from priorities usa is taking on the president's mishandling of the pandemic and the head-long push to get american kids back into schools. let's take a look. >> i want my child to go back to school, but we have to fix why schools closed in the first place. donald trump has failed us. he tells everyone, let's just open up the schools. but just do it is a nike slogan, it is not a public health plan. i am a republican, but i will not be voting for trump this year. i cannot support a president who will not listen to the experts

on such a life and death issue. >> joining us now, chairman of priorities usa guy cecil. guy, it's great to have you on. we've been watching you on. we've been watching this chaos of kids going back to school and colleges and dorms and coronavirus spreading and then the colleges having to backtrack and send everyone home or put 150 kids into quarantine and pretty obvious that was going to happen. schools are becoming super spreader events. and, yet, trump's supporters seem to want to send their kids back to school. what is the missing link here? >> well, the missing link is having somebody in the administration and having a president in the white house that actually cared. you know, the fact of the matter is, there's a lot of talk about character, whether or not democrats should be drawing contrast on character because

we've heard these arguments about donald trump before. but character is understanding and having the humility to understand that you can't bully the coronavirus the way you bully republicans in congress. right? character is about being honest with the american people, that we need to wear masks, that we need to socially distance. it's having the integrity to understand that we need to put resources, real resources into state and local governments so that they have the equipment and the tools and the cleaning supplies that they need so that our schools can open safely. and the idea that we can do this in some sort of piecemeal town by town city by city effort be lies the fact that we need the federal government to provide the resources to do it and we need a president who is clear about the fact and we haven't had a president who has been honest about the coronavirus since it hit this country. >> yeah. you know, guy, what is so

fascinating is, you talked about the school issue and we saw that ad that you ran, it looks a lot like a john cornyn ad. you want schools to open, but not until things are safe. this is like the peaceful civil rights marches were supported by 70%, 80% of americans. mail-in voting, we saw mitch mcconnell saying what every other republican seems to be saying, which is mail-in voting is fine. even "the wall street journal" editorial page to knock it off, it wasn't going to be a rigged election. so this is the my question. if donald trump keeps choosing the wrong side of 80/20 issues, why is this race still so close in swing states? you'll see a poll that says 4 points in pennsylvania, 3 points in wisconsin, 4 or 5 points in arizona. why is it still so close?

>> well, unfortunately, we are still, in many ways, locked in a partisan divide. and the reason why these particular issues break through in the way that they do, the issues like opening our schools safely, is because taking care of our kids should not be a partisan idea logical issue. but, yet, this president continues to play into the fears of the american people. and that, i think, was the biggest contrast from last night that your other panel hit on so well. we still are a partisan country. we still are a country that is based on ideology and, unfortunately, we are a country where a significant number of the american people still respond to fear. and that is the fear that this administration is stoking. you know, the optimistic part of me says that there are more of us than them, that there are more people who believe that we will all do better only when we all do better, that we need to make sure that we have an agenda on the part of the democratic

party that speaks not just to voters and in rural wisconsin or voters in urban south florida or voters in the suburbs of philadelphia, but that understands that we all want fundamentally the same things, we want to take care of our kids, we want our parents to be able to live in their retirement in a way that gives them dignity. we want to have a job that pays our bills. regardless of where you're from, this is what we want as americans. if we continue as democrats to focus on those things and not chase down every rabbit hole, the insanity of this president and this administration, then we will win in november. >> downey deutsch donny deutscs and has a question. >> i was curious, i want to pick up joe's point as far as the polls are tightening. what concerns me is there were

those secret trump voters who didn't want to admit they were going to vote for trump. that will be magnified. i even see people, you know they're voting for trump but they're not going to say it. how concerned are you with that secret trump vote? >> first of all, i want to be clear. i think this is going to be a cloeb close election. i thought that in january of last year. i thought that in august of last year. i thought that before the onset of the coronavirus and i believe that today. we are structured fundamentally to have a close election. and so our job is to make sure that we are both trying to persuade those voters that are conflicted about their vote and to mobilize democratic voters, democratic leaning independents, that decided not to show up in 2016. if we do those two things, then any theory about secret trump voters matters less. we cannot do anything about whether or not the public polls are right or wrong or whether or not someone is answering this

survey honestly. what we can do is be disciplined about our message, draw a strong contrast with this president and make sure that we are educating voters, that they should vote by mail, that they should show up early if early voting is available to them, and if those two options don't work, they should show up on election day if we just do the things we are supposed to do, then those issues become less important. >> hey, guys, it's willie. i'm interested in what you think about the next big moment in the campaign, which is the debates. the biden campaign feels good rolling out of this week. they think they pulled something off. it was difficult to do by any standard, which is to have a major convention without a central place for that convention. but now they will be on the stage. that was a speech last night he made by most accounts, even conservatives on fox news were lauding the speech last night. but now he'll have to stand on the stage with donald trump.

donald trump will pull no punches. he'll go however dirty he needs to go. how will you prepare him for standing on the stage with donald trump? >> well, i think the two impulses that joe biden has, which will work well in the debate and which i would strongly suggest he lean into, first, his comfort level talking about the middle class and those that want to be in it, that are working hard, that are working less and seeing their premiums go up. i think if he focuses on the things where he is most comfortable, that will benefit him. it will draw a strong contrast between this president who is trying to gut the affordable care act and refuses to support a raise in minimum wage when we've had infrastructure weakness for 3 1/2 years. so joe biden should focus first on that. second, i want to go back to this issue around character.

i don't think that they need to overdo the character argument in the debate because i think it is going the be apparent to the american people that on one side we have a candidate who can exhibit honestly and discipline and empathy and on the other hand we have an irrational, you know, an irrational president that only cares about himself. and so letting those two things be the centerpiece, you know, let these attacks come and go that he's going to say most of them haven't worked and they haven't worked because they are not believable and they're coming from a man who most americans know is a liar. >> all right. thank you so much, guy cecil. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> jason, i'm curious about how the left is embracing joe biden coming out of this convention. there was a -- there was a very, very colorful quote yesterday

from progressive who said, yes, i am vomiting in my mouth and holding it in while i vote for joe biden. i don't know that, you know, you'll be quoting that while playing "happy days are here again," but still, there is reluctance from the left. what did had week do on that front? did it narrow the gap at all? >> only a little bit, joe. it's interesting. i have a lot of friends who used to work on sanders' campaign who were very far left. they're grousing, they're complaining. but in particular, they couldn't stand seeing kasich, they were very unhappy at seeing michael bloomberg on the final night. but i think what was hammered in, even though those people on the left, i think what really kind of hammered into the left is like, okay, look, we don't like joe biden for a lot of different things he's done, but we might be able to work with this guy in a way that we cannot

work with donald trump. we've seen that we cannot work with donald trump. and i think that a lot of those people have come around to that decision. they've had time to mourn. it helps that senator bernie sanders is all in on joe biden. it helps that you have people like elizabeth warren who has black lives matter in the background. so i think that eventually a lot of those people have come to tolerate joe biden and senator harris, at least enough that they can vote for him in the fall even if they're going to hold their nose when they do it. >> gene robinson, let's talk about senator harris. how was this week for her? how was her launch? you've written a column saying she needs to get in touch with her inner ali. >> i think she's got it. >> and i think she's got it. look, i think it was a great debut for her. i mean, but here is the issue going forward. i thought her speech was very good. she had to introduce herself to the american people. and that is what she did.

going forward, you know, after this week, the whole theory of -- republican theory of how they were going to define joe biden really falls apart. he's not senile. he's not a -- some tool of the far left. he's joe biden. he's the same guy he's always been for 50 years. and they're not going to really crack that. but i think they're going to go hard at senator harris because she's less well known, she is -- you know, these been around for a while, but she hasn't been around for 50 years. a lot of people don't know her outside of california. and i think they are -- i think we're going to see the racism card come out, we're going to see the -- any immigrant, the xenophobia card come out. we're going to just see an attempt to paint her as some

sort of exotic danger to the republic. and i think that it's going to be really slimy and it's going to be awful and she's going to have to fight back. i think she will. i think she's shown many times that she is one tough woman, but she's going to have to be. >> all right. gene, it is the top of the hour, just past it. and joining us now, former secretary of state under president obama and the 2016 democratic presidential nominee, hillary clinton. madam secretary, it is great to have you on the show this morning. >> thank you. thank you very much. happy to be with you. >> so madam secretary, joe biden gets it -- gets the easy part of this where he gets to campaign from home. you had to fly all over the country. mika and i would always talk about how unfair it was. mika looking at me, just putting

my hair under the water faucet, you haven't to get made up. she said it's no fair, barack obama versus hillary, it's just not fair for women. but how strange is it, though? and i was commenting to mika about seeing you last night. it really does, this strange world we live in, really takes you inside of people's homes and it seems far more intimate, doesn't it? >> yeah. you know, i don't think any of us knew what to expect, joe, when we learned that we were literally not going to have much of a campaign and have virtual convention. but i think it's worked out much better than i certainly anticipated. i thought the biden campaign did an extraordinary job putting on the convention. and they overcame so many technical hurdles. they had a full crew in my living room when i addressed the convention on wednesday night.

so i don't know yet how it's going to affect voters. it seemed to have drawn a good number of eyeballs, both to tv and other channels on screens. so i'm hopeful that it will be a very positive experience for people who know that this is not a typical campaign year. >> before we get into questions specifically about the convention and how joe biden did and how you think this campaign is going to roll out, i want to talk briefly about something you warned all americans about four years ago, something that we saw in december of 2015 with had donald trump refused to criticize vladimir putin for killing journalists and political opponents. that continues even now. we've known about -- the president has known about bounties on young american

troops' heads for at least six months. he still refuses to condemn vladimir putin. from helsinki to bounties to this week, what can you tell americans about your insights on that and the dangers you think it poses for this country? >> you know, i do regret that we weren't able, either in my campaign or in the press or in any other way to convince enough americans to take seriously this un -- really, inexplicable attachment that trump seems to have to putin. he clearly admires putin. his unlimited, unaccountable power. but i don't think there's any doubt any longer. you said it the other morning. the report that just came out,

the fifth volume from the senate intelligence committee, that was signed off on by republicans as well as democrats paints a very clear and -- picture of the coordination between the trump campaign and representatives of the russian government and the interference that was directed by putin from the kremlin into our elections. but what is really troubling me is that even trump's intelligence officials now, joe, are saying it is still going on. it has not been stopped. we don't really yet now the full extent of what they did in 2016 and what they are now doing in 2020. we know that it goes in two directions. there's the actual, you know, hacking and receipt and is disclosure of stolen materials. we know that there was intrusions into a lot of election systems. and we know that we have the

disinformation, the propaganda that they flood the online communities with. so i hope that americans, regardless of party, will pay attention to the bipartisan senate intelligence committee's work and understand that, for whatever reason, donald trump, unfortunately, models himself after vladimir putin. >> all right. so let's talk about that. how does that happen across the country? in the weeks to come, what are you the most worried about, having run against donald trump and fully understanding exactly how things can go with him and his lack of respect fort law and norms. what are you most worried about as we head into the rnc and the weeks to come for joe biden as a candidate? >> well, mika, i'm really

worried that there will be direct interference with the election through the manipulation of the postal service. i heard senator tammy duckworth say that on your program just a little bit earlier this morning. i don't think there's any doubt that any sensible person should have that there is a deliberate effort to sabotage vote by mail. that is a incredible attack on our election system and everything else that the post office does, like deliver prescription medication to veterans and social security checks and everything. i'm also worried that the disinformation campaign that was run in 2016 and, unfortunately, believed by a lot of people as a post election academic analysis showed, will be really ramped up. and i agree with one of your earlier commentators that it

will be directed both at joe biden and at kamala harris. and it will be no holds barred. and if you go and look at the most liked or the most shared facebook posts, for example, in the top ten, most days, it's 8, 9 or 10 that are either directly from trump or al highs of trump supporting his campaign, supporting the outrageous things that he says and does. so i'm worried about direct interference, undermining vote by mail, and i'm worried about the impact of the propaganda. >> and -- >> secretary clinton -- go ahead, mika. >> go ahead, willie. all right. i'll take it. in terms of the messaging to the american people about the election -- >> right. >> -- do they need clear messaging in terms of how massive vote by mail will work if the postal service and governors and lawmakers are able

to shore it up? because in the middle of a pandemic, this may be very -- a very different election. it may not look like past elections. yes, we may not have the results on the night of the election. >> oh, i think that's probably likely. and one of the themes that ran through the four nights of the convention starting on monday night with michelle obama and barack obama and i and others was to, please, get -- you know, get a plan for voting. if you're going to vote by mail, do it as soon as you can. follow all the rules. take a picture of your ballot. if you're going to vote in person, if you can, vote early. get everybody you know to vote early. but here is what we already know is going to happen. unfortunately, the rnc and the trump campaign have already said that they're going to have a lot of intimidators at the polls.

trump just reinforced that by saying that he was going to have off-duty law enforcement, retired law enforcement and the like to really demonstrate a kind of authoritarian approach towards the election by trying to scare people, literally, away from the polls. so be a poll worker. be part of the campaign to protect our election, regardless of party. this should be a nonpartisan commitment on the part of americans. >> secretary, it's willie geist. you are in the unique position of being the only other person to have stood one-on-one in the political arena with donald trump. and i won't ask you to go back and relive the 2016 campaign or the election, but you can offer advice unlike anyone else to joe biden about how to run against this man. did we lose her?

oh, we lost secretary clinton's signal for just a moment. we'll try to get her back. but, joe, what i started to say is that, you know, she clearly learned some lessons from running against this guy. it will be interesting to hear when we get her shot back up about what those were and how much she has talked to joe biden about how tough to be or when to handle him or when to ignore him or how low and how dirty it actually can be. >> and i think the mistake that a lot of people around secretary clinton made, and i think a lot of political observers made, was the suggestion that she should ignore a lot of his more outrageous antics, that when he crowded her on the stage and we're showing the debate stage, ignore it and it will go past. i think secretary clinton obviously would take a more confrontational approach this time. it's hard to remember, but, you

know, mika, the overwhelming majority of americans believed, all of the vetting services believed, all of the newspaper projections, everybody said hillary clinton was going to win and it wasn't going to be close and if you even suggested donald trump might win then, of course, you were roundly criticized. i think there's been such you a wake-up call over the past four years that that certainly won't be a problem this time, mika. in fact, even with polls look good for joe biden, there is still this instance of impending doom in the democratic party. >> yeah. there's so many different ways in which he is so in doubt in the election and people feel some people are just tuning out and not watching anything because they're so tired of the

onlawsu onslaught coming out of the negativity of the process. but we have an election that needs to be taken seriously and understood how your vote is cast, where you do it and how long it will take to figure out the results. >> and i loved, willie, what you said or what the -- what she said to you which is take a picture of your ballot. get involved. do all the things -- >> gauge. >> -- that actually hold election officials accountable. >> yeah. and i think we have secretary clinton back now. secretary clinton, welcome back. we've all been in that position being dropped from a zoom meeting over the last few months. so what i started to say, and i'll let you pick up on, is you are in this unique position of having run against donald trump, one-on-one, no one else can say that. now joe biden officially can say that. so with four years of hindsight, looking back on your own campaign, what have you said to joe biden about running against donald trump, about confronting

donald trump, about when to ignore donald trump? what did you learn that you can help pass on to joe biden? >> well, you're right, willie. there was a lot to learn and it was a new experience for all of us. i think, one, is not to let any attack online go unanswered. you have to be, you know, very focused on the lies that are being told. one of the things i found after the election is that ohio state university did a survey and they talked to people who voted for trump, who had voted for obama, and there were a number of reasons, but all of them went back to what was in their facebook feed, including that pope francis had endorsed donald trump. you know, there was so much going on under the surface on social media and i don't think we did a good enough job being aware of and understanding the

impact that such assertions and falsehoods could have. secondly, i think that joe's campaign has shown that they're very technically adept, that they are very focused, they have stuck with the same message all the way through the primaries, even before he had his breakout moment in south carolina. so don't get thrown off your game. stay focused and really work as hard as you can to help the press cover what you say and what you stand for because it's really hard not to get distracted by the shenanigans of trump and his allies. and i guess number three, be prepared on that debate stage to be standing there with somebody unlike anyone you'ven been involved with before in politics, someone who lies with impunity, who literally will say anything, try to throw you off your game. you have to be as focused as you can be, respond, you know, when you have to, but try to get your

message beyond the sort of reality show environment that he is trying to create so that the american people have an idea about why they would vote for you, not just against donald trump. >> do you and joe biden, secretary clinton, have those conversations? what is your relationship like behind the scenes? do you talk about running against donald trump? >> oh, we do. i've known joe a very long time. and we worked together in the senate for eight years. we obviously worked together in the white house when i was secretary of state. we had a standing breakfast date every tuesday morning at the vice presidential residence. i've talked with him before he got into the race. i've talked with him by phone throughout the race. i've talked to him, you know, leading up to this convention and his selection of the vice presidential nominee and i am,

you know, able, willing and ready to be as supportive of him and kamala as i possibly can because i agree with what guy cecil said on your program earlier, because of the electoral college, i said it in my speech, you know, they could win 3 million more votes, but not be on their way to the white house. so this is going to be a challenging campaign running against someone who will say or do anything and who let's go back to what joe asked about early on and has, you know, foreign adversaries helping him, has all kinds of, you know, unfortunate tricks in his bag that he's going to pull out against joe and kamala and to also sow as much confusion and fear as possible. >> madam secretary, we've talked about it before on this show. i think we've talked about it with you. backback in the good old days

when i was a run, i remember after you got into the united states senate, behind closed doors, i would ask people about you when you were new to the senate, how is she doing? and the same people that skewered you as first lady, the people that used you as a political punching bag as first lady were saying, oh, she's great. she works hard. we love her. i remember trent lott telling me what an incredible colleague you were. how much they all loved working with you. you always came prepared. and it was nothing but positive. it reminds me of, you know, when joe cline asked david petraeus, who knows the most about iraq? and general petraeus said, you mean other than hillary clinton? so i'm wondering with all of the good, positive relationships you had in the united states senate and all the great respect that flowed both ways in the united states senate, how do you feel today, looking at colleagues

that remain mute in this time? i'll just say it -- of political crisis, of moral crisis, of constitutional crisis? >> i am so saddened by it, joe. you're right. i worked across the aisle. i had to. we had big challenges. i was a senator from new york on 9/11. i was very conscious of how important it was that we try to bring not only the senate together, but the country together and i now look at people who were there as colleagues when i was the senator and i don't understand what has happened to them. i keep looking for the margaret chase smiths, the great republican senator from maine who was the first to stand up to joe mccarthy. other than, you know, mitt romney and on a few votes a couple of others, there's been no consistent willingness on the

part of the people that should be not only standing up for facts and evidence and against the kind of chaos that is generated by trump. they just don't seem willing. i don't know why. i know the politics of it. they think that, you know, that is not possible. it's in the current state of the republican party. but that is not a good enough explanation. because when russians are interfierce in our election, when they're putting bounties on american soldiers, to stay silent is to be complicit. that's what i don't understand. why do they want their place in history to be tarred by this apology for trump at every turn or the silence that marks them when they're asked a tough question. and a couple of them who i knew better, i traveled with and

thought i understood where they were coming from, even when we disagreed, have just been so surprising to me. i don't understand what is going to happen, if what i hope occurs and that is not only biden wins the presidency, but we take back the senate, whether there can be a reckoning and a reassertion of the commitment to the institution of congress and to -- as we used to say, joe, regular order, get back to solving problems, but, you know, the hate machine, the attack machine, is so powerful, i mean, when you were you were saying those nice things about me. look, i left being secretary of state with a 67% approval rating. and, you know, it's tough to defend yourself day after day with all the falsehoods and the untruths and the out of context stuff. and so i know how hard this is. but honestly, i just wish

everybody would put country before party or personal interest. >> it's a strange question to close with, but i just wonder about the big tech companies and social media and facebook. where, you know, it used to be emails where conspiracy theories were passed along, people who were believing something extreme. now it's just churning at 1 million miles an hour. what should happen with these big tech companies to try and stop the lies from swirling around? >> i think, mika, that's one of the most important questions all democracies are facing. and i've been disappointed, particularly in facebook. they have been unwilling to listen to the experts in their own industry about what more they could do. their ad revenue, their cliques

are driven by algorithms that really promote hate and conspiracy. and that could change. i mean, it isn't beyond the ability of these smart tech experts to say, you know what? we are not going to give all this red meat, all of these lies the high priority that we've been. in fact, we are going to try to present a much more contextual and frankly factual picture for people who use our services. >> former secretary of state hillary clinton, thank you so much for coming on. please come back and we will be watching and listening. we want to mention the new nbc news digital tool to help inform voters about the rules in their states in order to plan their vote, as you heard the former secretary of state talking about this year. how you vote is as important as

who you vote for. nbc's interactive state by state plan your vote guide has everything you need to know about casting a bat ballot in the 2020 presidential election. see where your state stands on voting rules. plus, read up on deadlines, restrictions and more. visit nbc news.com/plan your vote. >> and even, willie, if you don't agree that how you vote is as important as who you vote for, because i don't agree with that, this still provides -- it provides a great breakdown state by state of how to vote and secretary clinton, i thought what she said was so important that make sure, if you get the ballot early, take a picture of your ballot, mail it in, trace your ballot in a lot of states you can actually trace a ballot. that's one thing that this nbc news product allows you to do to

see which states actually allow you to trace the ballots. >> all right. still ahead on morning joe -- >> not just because it's nbc, but it is great because it's so confusing right now and there's so much disinformation floating around and there are a lot of people who don't want some people to go vote. so that is a great way to do it. and the truth is, as secretary clinton pointed out, you have to start thinking about it right now, even though we're a couple months away from election day. >> plan your vote. still ahead on morning joe, new reporting from nbc's julia ainsley and jacob soberoff that trump cabinet officials voted in a show of hands in 2018 to decide the fate of thousands of migrant parents and their children. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back.

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to low income families through our internet essentials program. and this summer, xfinity is creating a virtual summer camp for kids at home- all on xfinity x1. we're committed to helping all families stay connected. learn more at xfinity.com/education. by a show of hands, president trump's most senior advisers voted to separate

thousands of migrant children from their parents according to officials who were in the white house situation room during that vote. officials told nbc news that no one in the meeting made the case that separating families would be inhumane or immoral. senior adviser steven miller reportedly led the meeting and saw the policy of family separations as a tool to deter more immigration. he also had plans that would have separated even more children. join ing us now, the authors of this exclusive report, nbc news correspondent julie ainsley and jacob soberov. jacob, if i could start with you, it's hard to even imagine this type of vote taking place with no discussion about the

pain it would cost. >> absolutely. utterly shocking, mika. and, you know, i'm often asked, julia is often asked, how did what i saw with my own eyes, the children kept in the cages down at the border ultimately come to pass? and honestly, even after reporting an entire book on the topic, i had no idea that this event occurred. we were able to understand that this was steven miller pushing as hard as he could to make this policy happen as fast as policy. that was despite pushback from secretary nielsen who ultimately is not exonerated in any way under this story as some might read into or suggest. she ultimately signed the memo that put the policy in place. but what happened, steven miller

laying out for cabinet officials, nielsen, basically saying are we doing this or are we not doing this? and a sea of hands went up as it was described to us. and what i think is important to note here is these are names that we have not before associated with the family separation policy. this is higher than we ever knew in the trump administration. ultimately, the result was the systemic torture of over 5,400 children. >> julia, this was the most breath taking thing i read yesterday. everybody should read it. you have steven miller, as jacob is he the said, sitting in that room. we know 3,000 children ultimately have been separated from their parents in this process. but steven miller wanted much, much more. in fact, as you guys report, he wanted people who presented at ports of entry claiming asylum

to be separated from their children while they waited for those hearings to take place. >> that's right, willie. actually, what steven miller wanted was something that would separate ten times the number of children we saw separated in those months. he wanted it to be so any immigrant going through even a civil proceeding, those are people who legally come to the port of entry to claim asylum, that would automatically mean separation. that is something that was ultimately shot down and some officials we spoke to who later got on board with zero tolerance said, look, it could have been much worse. there were months and months of drawn out lawsuits to try to get these people back together. in this room, even with a policy that did go forward, kirsten nielsen and others, spshls

nielsen, raised concerns that there were not resources across hhs to house children, across doj to swiftly prosecute parents and within dhs on the be able to track these children. and ultimately what happens is what did happen. they would get lost in the system. what is interesting is that history down, people who worked for these principals, people did raise moral objections in other meetings. we were able to obtain an email sent from a white house official following the meeting saying, look, all of you need to get in line and drop any disconnection you have with your bosses. this is the plan going forward, logistics be dammed. and they moved forward, anyway. >> so, jacob, in this room, you have all these ostensible hi powerful people. you have homeland security, healthing and human services, all the heads of these powerful bureaucracies. why does steven miller win the argument when he makes it -- he puts it out there and everyone

complies and raises their hands in that scene you guys described there even as they say we're not equipped to do this right now. he said let's do it and figure out how we do it logistically heart. why is teeven miller's voice to present in that room? >> badgering. some version of this meeting occurred on multiple occasions that led up to nielsen signing the decision memo. and miller was adamant that the administration move forward with this policy. despite concerns raised about what would happen to the children, we know this was a traumatic event, but the linchpin is the parents of children were not able to be reunited with each because of a lack of recordkeeping.

kwe might not be able to get enough bed space, doj might not be able to prosecute children, parents fast enough to return them back to the children so that they were reunited in a timely manner. and miller did not care. virtually anybody you talk to with a moral compass or otherwise would say un-american would be the opposite of the way steven miller described what happened here. >> it's hard to believe. thank you so much for your reporting. and up next as the postmaster general prepares to testify before the senate today, heidi pris bill la joins us with her new reporting on treasury secretary steve mnuchin's role in lewis dejoy's appointment.

as we go to break, we just had hillary clinton on the show. she spoke in what has been a remarkable week for children. on monday, former first lady michelle obama headlined the first night of the dnc, tuesday saw the celebration of the 100th anniversary of the 19th amendment. wednesday, senator kamala harris became the first black woman and first person of indian descent to be nominated for national office by a major party. and as we continue to celebration this monumental week, a park in new york city is commemorating 100 years of women's suffrage in a unique week. a giant field of sun flowers, a symbol of the suffrage movement is being displayed on the monumental scare case at the fdr for freedom state park.

emblazoned in the -- is the new york historical society and the league of women voters is text from the historic amendment. it reads, the right of citizens of the united states to vote shall not be denied orr abridged by the united states or by any state on account of sex. know your value has partnered with forbes to create the powerful platform 50 over 50 which celebrates trailblazing women such as these who achieve their greatest success after 50. 50 over 50 will highlight these amazing women, highlighting their remarkable contributions and accomplishments. go to know your value.com for much more. we'll be right back. r much more. we'll be right back. >> tech: when you've got auto glass damage...

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where are they going? where are these ballots going? who is getting them? who is not getting them? a little second that's republican. will they be stolen from mailboxes as they get put in by the mailman? will they be taken from the mailman and the mail women? will they be forged?

who is signing them? what, are they signed at the kitchen table and sent in? will they be counterfeited by groups inside our nation? will they be counterfeited maybe by the billions by foreign powers? >> let me put this in my own words. i've heard donald trump say some pretty unhinged things. i've heard them over and over and over again. but nothing is more dangerous to our drs. than his attacks on mail-in voting during a pandemic, okay. here is the truth. donald trump doesn't want any of us to vote because he knows he can't win fair and square. so whether you plan to vote by mail or in person wearing your mask, it is your vote and it is your right. don't let donald trump take that away from you. >> that was sara cooper's appearance at the dnc last

night. her lip synced videos of the president's strange statements have been a huge hit on social media. she's become a star. i think she has a netflix show now. meanwhile, we're watching live pictures from capitol hill will postmaster general huis dejoy will soonl testify before the homeland security committee. it comes amid widespread concern that a series of changes within the service are designed to compliment mail-in voting in the 2020 election. the naice is among the groups suing dejoy over the move alleging the recent showdowns in mail delivery could have severe consequences for americans' right to vote. joining us now, president and ceo of the naacp, derrick johnson. also with us, heidi pris bill what with new reporting on steve mnuchin's role in the post

matter's appointment. it was a strange process. also with us, former senior adviser for the house oversight and government reform county kurt bardella. >> derrick johnson, tell us about your lawsuit against the post office. >> well, we filed this lawsuit so the postmaster general and trust don't steal the election. they followed their own internal procedures process, unplugging the machines and did all the things to disrupt this election. we did this as part of the legal defense fund and public citizens. we must fight back. >> heidi, you were doing some new reporting about how louis dejoy ended up in this job to begin with. he just assumed the role in june of this year. who is he besides a big donor to

the rnc and a supporter of donald trump and how did he get where he is because he wasn't just dropped in there by president trump. he did have to go through the approve of the usps board and he was voted in unanimously. how did it happen? >> nbc news has confirmed that there were a series of meeting between the gop appointed members of that board and secretary mnuchin in the weeks prior to dejoy's appointment. these meetings were not open. they were one-on-one discussions, meaning that they were not subject to the sunshine act, which requires that all major agents hold their deliberations in public. we were told those that were aware of the meetings that mnuchin was aware of this process, that he wanted to be kept informed before any decision was made and that he was advocating that it be made quickly. why does this matter? because it lines up with what we

were told yesterday by the former ig and the former vice chair of the board of governors who said that he quit in part in protest over poe litzation of the board. he said prior to their confirmation, these board members had to go over and, quote, kiss the ring of secretary secretary mnuchin. mnuchin released a statement saying he just asked the board to keep them apprised of what was going on. the postal service is uniquely independent. it has a board that is supposed to operate like an independent board of trustees, but this all lines up with this developing narrative about the treasury secretary being inordinately interested in what was going on

with popped with postan service changes. >> tell us what you believe as somebody that obviously has been incidentally involved in these types of hearing. what should question should be asked? >> i think the most important thing is for senate democrats to get dejoy on the record so on monday, house democrats who control the oversight committee hearing can follow up with him. i hope democrats in the house and senate are talking with one another, communicating with one another and laying out oversight traps for dejoy. here is what we do know. we know they were going down a certain path. he publicly said he's not going to do it any more, but that doesn't mean they're going to undo the damage they've already done. and i think that's what they need to hone in on.

why we have these mail delays, what the impact is going to be, there needs to be a recorded record under specificity. we know republicans in congress will be no help here. they don't care what's happening with our democracy. they look at this as an effort to recast dejoy and reintroduce him. there's a reason senate republicans decided to have this hearing to try to subvert the hearing going on monday from democrats. democrats cannot let them get away with it. the one thing i was disappointed about learning was that senator harris is not going to be participating in today's hearing. she's a member of the homeland security hearing but coming off accepting the vice presidential nomination, she's going to be sitting this one out. democrats are losing a very important and skillful voice on that dais today. >> i'm curious what you're hoping will be asked or come out of the hearing today but also in terms of the lawsuit.

how long would the procedure of this lawsuit be to carry out? it seems that some damage has been done, and i'm still trying to hear the part where someone says the post office and its services can be fixed to where they were or made even better due to this pandemic before the election. and i'm not hearing that. does anyone know what levers can be pulled in the law or in washington to help fix the damage? >> well, our goal is to have the postal service restore the damage. they violated internal procedures. the timeline is something i cannot answer but we're going to press as hard as we can to ensure that the damage is repaired. it's not enough for this postmaster general to say he's not going to cause any new harm because the harm he's already caused could be detrimental to the outcome of this election. but it will be our goal along with our partners to push as hard and as fast as we can to

restore the services of the post office. we are also most concerned with the delivery of prescription drugs. we have a large number of individuals who depend on the post service for medications. some of my board members are dependent on delivery of prescription drugs and several of them are military veterans. so the fact that this administration and dejoy, someone who we are now learning of a mind-set of very conservative move, will put in place something to completely disrupt this election. under any other circumstances, i would say this would be criminal. >> so heidi, you have done some reporting on dave williams, a former board member of the postal service who actually, you report, that he said that moves are strange and disturbing because they end up costing the united states postal service

more money than saving it money. tell us about that. >> yeah, that was a shocker, joe. i was listening in on his testimony before the house progressive caucus yesterday, and he's not only a former vice chair but a former inspector general, joe, and by all accounts, he knows more about the post office than almost anyone. and what he said was shocking in that all of these moves that are being made to remove those blue boxes to decommission the sorting equipment, he said those moves cost the u.s. government money, particularly, you know, decommissioning the sorting equipment. imagine that we have a hurricane and you need to redirect mail. you would need those sorting equipment to redirect that mail and to keep everything functioning properly. it's already in place. so it actually costs us money to take it out of commission which really raises a lot of questions about why any of this is being done under the pretense of

saving the american taxpayers money. and it's had such a direct effect already. we're not getting any indications now of how that is going to be undone. how it's going to be undone and how much of it has actually been implemented on what scale. these are all questions that need to be asked today, joe. >> wow. >> all right. >> heidi przybyla, derek johnson and kurt bardella, thank you all for being on. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." >> tech: when you've got auto glass damage...

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learned a second languageument applied to college applied for a loan started a business started a blog shared a picture shared a moment turn your wish list into a checklist, with internet essentials from comcast. when you're connected, you're ready for anything. how is ernie doing? good? how good is ernie. isn't he great? ernie holmes. he was heavyweight champ, right? larry. larry. sorry. i know another one named ernie holmes. >> no you don't. you know about ernie shavers. >> final thoughts. >> it's been quite a week, joe.

>> it has been quite a week. it was the first remote convention in u.s. history, and it went off extraordinarily well. if you just looked at that technically, the messaging was really good. as jonathan lemire said, i'm sure the rnc is paying close attention. and willie, as i said earlier, a couple of hours ago, it's quite a contrast. it seems like joe biden has taken the mantel of optimism from the party of reagan, and it will now be an optimistic message against a message of american carnage from donald trump's republican party. >> there is no question about it. in three or four days we'll see an entirely different message. we've got a preview of it in that speech where donald trump called the great larry holmes the easton assassin, called him ernie holmes. he also talked about a country on fire. ironic because he's the president overseeing that. he said if you like the smoldering ruins of minneapolis and portland and all these

scenes we're seeing on television, joe biden will bring that to you. as if he's the insurgent running against an incumbent when he's the incumbent. i thought it was interesting as we talked to secretary hillary clinton, mika, she offered rules of the road. how to run against donald trump for joe biden and some of the mistakes she thinks her own campaign made. >> a shout out to stephanie cutter, adrian elrod reminded me earlier this week. she's the master mind of the entire democratic national convention, and she did an incredible job. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle live from nbc news headquarters here in new york city. it is friday, august 21st. let's get smarter. right now we're just moments away from the start of a senate hearing with postmaster general louis dejoy as the sole witness. it's the first time he's going to have to testify about all