build things like if you want home remodeling, if you want a deck built, you're going to have to wait a long time. so some of those workers may be finding a little bit of a boom. wall street journal poll finding the president stabilizing to up even maybe a little bit from 2016 with hispanic voters and favorability with white voters. so not just the ballot test but just how they feel about trump. up 20 points from 2016. so default, long way to go, but more to work with than most people realize. >> all right. mike allen, thank you. i'm going to be reading axios. you can read it at signup dath axios.com. the economy was rebuilt in three years, then came a once in 100 year pandemic. it was awful. health and economic impacts were tragic.

hardship and heart break were everywhere, but presidential leadership came swiftly and effectively with an extraordinary rescue for health and safety to successfully fight the covid virus. >> boy, that was something. do you remember we were in the middle of that pandemic. that was something. man. we never thought that would pass. that pandemic was bad. just like cancer. that was -- remember when people used to get can -- terrible. oh, wait. there's still people dying from the coronavirus. we're moving towards 180,000 dead so i'm not really sure why larry cud lokudlow who used to about it going away quickly, i'm not sure why he's talking about it in the past tense but, of course, he is consistent if nothing else. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, august 26th.

along with me we've got willie. also nbc news and msnbc contributor shawna thomas host of msnbc nation and reverend al sharpton. mika will be back tomorrow. willie, we're going to get to the big take aways from night two of the republican national convention. as jonathan omere put it, covid gets ignored, rising 2024 stars and pompeo and milan yes. the president ever a showman makes official business with campaign politics. you know, very, very interesting, willie, that if you looked at this night, it really was an alternative reality. you had larry kudlow talking about the coronavirus in the past tense. you also had melania actually

criticizing people who were mean on social media and gossipers. of course, never heard her criticize her own husband when he said that mika was bleeding badly from a face lift or when i was a murderer or when a woman who had passed away tragically 19 years ago, her husband was begging donald trump to stop being so hateful and causing their family extraordinary pain, begging him to stop and he just continued over and over again causing pain for that family. never heard melania say anything then. never heard her say bleeding badly from a face lift, but somebody used her child's name in a pun and oh, my god. locusts were descending from the heaven. it was the end of the world. so i guess she's fine with

donald trump savaging other people every day, causing immeasurable pain, being the most extraordinarily hateful, ma level voe lent force in american politics on a personal level in his constant daily attacks but she's going to stand up and lecture about gossip? she? she's inside the house. a little lecture about fwos sip? and she's going to lecture about the meanness of -- seriously. talk about being shameless, absolutely shameless, speaking of that. another person i know, former florida attorney general, pam bondi. she chased all the conspiracy theories on ukraine.

like why? pam, why? what's in that for you? it's crazy. so anyway, willie, it's incredible, a night of alternative reality, alternative facts and if we're in that world, then i can tell you that last night the boston red sox took yet another step towards the 2020 world series, they came back, six runs halfway through the game. they beat toronto 9-6. how many times have you and i grown up when we were little kids sitting on our father's laps and our father saying, son, if you can go into buffalo on a tuesday night, beat the blue jays, then you can win anywhere. your dad told you that, right? >> he did. he always said, son, that neutral site buffalo field, it'll break your heart every time if you're not careful, but

somehow the red sox managed to get out of there. we'll have complete coverage of the red sox and yankees later. you're right about the parallel universe. i think larry cud low captured it talking about a pandemic. being dismissive of it. yes, it was bad, death and destruction. then comes the but and this entire construction so far has been about an invented but. joe, 178,000 people are dead, 30 million people are out of work and they're touting, again, the president's response to the coronavirus in this country. amazing, we're coming up on 180,000 dead. larry kudlow, that was one moment in time. his dismissiveness and willingness to raise president trump up to be the hero of this crisis, it just defies reality when we cover this and watch this. and not just us, but americans who live this every day. >> well, we've seen it unfold

over the past six, seven months. again, if larry kudlow is going to say it's over and if they're going to say that donald trump has somehow made this better than it was looking at the numbers of americans who have died compared to every other country across the globe, we have the worst record on every level but, again, this is a man who said that the coronavirus is one person coming in from china. one person coming in from china and it was going to go away. that was in january. the same time joe biden said we weren't ready for the pandemic and begged the president to listen to the scientists and the doctors who were warning him. then at the end of february this is the same president who said it's only 15 people and soon it's going to be gone. in march he said that it was going to go away very soon and told senators to stop worrying about it, republican senators, that everything was going to be fine. he wasn't worried about it in

march. said it was going to go away in april when things warmed up. told a am group of african-american leaders and drugs that his own scientists said weren't proven and wouldn't work. he started pushing that. then he started pushing cleansers. what, disinfectants, injecting disinfectants in body. that was the second time. that his administration had to put out a message saying, don't listen to the president. don't put disinfectants in your body, or uv lights into your body, it won't help you. it will kill you. then he said it was going to go away. again, it is still with us. we still, of course, lead the world in total coronavirus

deaths. the president has lied every step of the way, every step of the way telling us not to worry about it, that it was going away. you see the number of deaths in italy? remember when italy was the great challenge and we thought, well, at least we're not italy. now we're a country with about 4 1/2% of the world's population. we've got about 25% of deaths in the world. has nothing to do with testing. that's deaths. on march 10th donald trump said we're prepared. we're doing a great job with it. it will go away just stay calm. it'll go away. that's on march 10th. and, willie, you're right. despite all of this, despite the fact he said it's not coming back in the fall, despite the fact his own people know he's been wrong time and time again,

this was a president who pretended last night like to wasn't there. he didn't see masks. many people wearing masks going out talking about it in the past tense. they've made that deadly mistake over the past six months. 180,000 people soon to be dead in the united states and it's been extraordinarily bad leadership with a deadly, deadly consequence. >> yeah. the president said it's magically going to go away. if we watch the first two nights of this parallel universe you might have thought it had gone away. the reality is different. we'll talk about what happened in the rnc. there's a lot to get to. we want to begin with jacob blake. he is the 29-year-old black man shot multiple times by police in

kenosha, wisconsin. he's now paralyzed. he said the damage to blake's spinal cord as well as to his internal organs is so severe that it would, quote, take a miracle for him to walk again. that shooting has sparked protests over racial injustice in cities across the country, some of which have erupted into violence. amid the protests over blake's shooting overnight kenosha police reported two fatalities and also that a third gunshot victim was transported to hospital with serious but nonlife threatening injuries. it marked the third night of protests that tore through kenosha which saw police fire tear gas to subdue groups near the courthouse past the 8 p.m. curfew. 250 national guards men were on hand. governor tony evers has declared a state of emergency. yesterday jacob blake's parents pleaded for justice for their son and for an end to the

violence. >> they shot my son seven times, seven times like he didn't matter, but my son matters. he's a human being and he matters. >> as i'm driving through here, through the city, i notice a lot of damage. it doesn't reflect my son or my family. if jacob knew what was going on as far as that goes, the violence and the destruction, he would be very unpleased so i really am asking and encouraging

everyone in wisconsin and abroad to take a moment and examine your heart. >> an eye witness to blake's shooting told nbc news he heard officers yell drop the knife but police in kenosha have not said whether they recovered a weapon. rev, this is, again, a pattern we've watched so many times. we see these shootings on video and we see a family full of grief but also full of grace having to go out in front of the cameras and address the pain in their own family, the pain of what happened to their son or their daughter but also to make an appeal to the country. astounding to watch jacob blake's father, his mother, and his sister yesterday, the grace that they showed. >> it was very moving and at the same time challenging.

blake's father called me the day before yesterday and asked for our support. in fact, he's joining us at the national march in washington on friday that martin luther king iii and i had already called. when you look at the fact that this young man was shot in the back seven times, probably will not be able to walk again, prayerfully maybe he will but certainly he's paralyzed now, but in any way, shape, or form it does not seem justified at all, unarmed, nonthreatening running away from the policeman, and yet his mother and father stood there and had a grace about what was going on calling for peace, calling for people not to do anything that this young man himself would want to stand for. they showed a grace that the country and the law enforcement officials have not shown them and i would hope that this not

only speaks to those that would go out and misrepresent what jacob is about, i hope it speaks to those in the case that this needs to stop and we need to have laws that will enforce protection of those of us that are subjected to police that take matters above the law, beyond the law, rather than enforce the law. that's what friday's about and that's what this family reminds us as other families in the past. it's not just the video. it's the law and enforcement of the law. we had a video 20 years ago, 25 years ago with rodney king. what we haven't had is the willingness to say to police, you will pay and be accountable if you go beyond and above the law. >> it was an incredible display of grace by the family, the mother, also telling those protesting not to resort to

violence, that that undermined everything that her son stood for but also said she was praying for the police but also that she expected justice. obviously there has been a response across the country to this tragic shooting. here is l.a. clippers head coach doc rivers speaking yesterday about jacob blake's plight. >> what stands out to me is just watching the republican revenge convention and they're spewing this fear, right? like all you hear is donald trump and all of them talking about fear. we're the ones getting killed. we're the ones getting shot. we're the ones that were denied to live in certain communities. we've been hung, we've been shot and all you do is keep hearing

about fear. it's -- it's amazing why we keep loving this country and this country is not loving back. and it's just -- it's really so sad. like i should just be a coach and it's so often reminded of my color, you know? it's just really sad. we've got to do better, but we've got to demand better. you know, it's funny, we protest and they send riot guards, right? they send people in riot outfits. they go to michigan with guns and they're spitting on cops and

nothing happens. the training has to change in the police force. the unions have to be taken down in the police force. my dad was a cop. i believe in good cops. we're not trying to defund the police and take all their money away, we're trying to get them to protect us just like they protect everybody else. i didn't want to talk about it before the game because it's so hard like to just keep watching it. that video, if you watch that video, you don't need to be black to be outraged. you need to be american and outraged and how dare republicans talk about fear? we're the ones that need to be scared. we're the ones having to talk to every black child.

what white father has to give his son a talk about being careful if you get pulled over? >> yeah. you have -- dock rivers, extraordinary. you have at the convention the sons of a billionaire who inherited $400 million talking about fear, stirring fear, trying to stir fear among white voters in the suburbs, that the blacks are coming to get you. talking about the fear, making up -- just making things up, talking about the fear, they're coming for you. they're going to abolish the suburbs. gangs are coming to your neighborhoods and are going to kill you and your families. they talk about fear, shawna, and yet as doc rivers said, donald trump never had to sit his sons down and have the talk with his sons, hey, you know, if

you get stopped while you're driving in your porsche or your lamborghini or whatever you drive in, as you're driving down to atlantic city, turn the lights on in the car, keep your hands on the dashboard because if you make the wrong move, you may get shot. shawna? i think we lost her. rev, to you on that same thought, that doc rivers, extraordinary point that doc rivers made. >> i think it was an extraordinary point, but i also think it was extraordinary, it was doc rivers. because when you see lebron, you see a dock rivers, you see people that are not activists like i am, that are not involved in movements for decades but that step outside of their zone,

maybe a lot of people and clearly from the polling it is true a lot of people don't ordinarily give the kind of attention they should are going to look at this. then you contrast it with a president who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never had to fear anything but getting caught up in some real estate schemes of discrimination start trying to put fear in the minds of people. he has people that held weapons on non-violent protestors in st. louis and are under indictment for doing so featured to speak at the republican national convention. that is why people like doc rivers are calling out. you contrast that, lastly, joe, and we look at the fact that the mother told the story, the mother of jacob yesterday told a story yesterday that when she was standing at bedside with her son and said, let's pray, there was someone in the room, an

officer, and her son said, are you a person of faith? said, yes. he said, pray with us. they could pray together with people that you would think they would be angry at at a time that a president is stoking fear, fear against who and for what? this has to stop and we're the only ones that are going to be able to stop it, and that's all of us together. >> we have shawna back now. watching doc rivers, i've been a basketball fan my whole life. i watched him as a player and a coach. i think that was the best moment i've ever seen him. what a beautiful message and a beautiful speech and obviously wasn't easy for him to do, but he felt like it was important with the additional meaning, as he pointed out, that his father was a police officer for 30 years in maywood, illinois, where doc grew up. what did you hear in that message from doc rivers? what did you see in his face? what did you hear in his voice? >> i mean, i heard extreme pain, and i think that is being

reflected throughout the country. i was watching the press conference with mr. blake's family yesterday, and i just want to read a quote that i ended up texting one of my friends from his sister. quote, he was not treated like a human that day. he was treated like some foreign object that didn't belong, and that is -- when we see these shootings on tape, when we see these things happen, when we hear coach rivers say what he said, that's the reality that many people are living. and forgive me for bringing this back to politics, but part of the issue of the republican national convention is that it is like two realities. this is kind of what doc rivers was talking about, that that juxtaposition between this idea that a woman's brother went out and wasn't treated like a human versus the idea that it wasn't really being acknowledged by an entire party in the united states during a presidential

election is really -- it makes it in some ways even harder to deal with. it's part of why melania, and i heard everything joe said about melania's speech as well as all of the things the president has done and said, i heard all of that. but one thing that stands out to me about the convention last night is that melania trump, the first lady, did acknowledge some of the division. it wasn't like the entire convention was in this alternate universe, but the thing that is interesting that you decided to lead with this, because what doc rivers is saying is what so many people are living every day is that sense of fear. we want our government to at least acknowledge it and try to work towards it. not even including what's happening with covid-19 right now on top of that. all of these things make it pretty scary to be a black person in this country and we

have to figure out a way to work together to get beyond that. we can't do it if a large chunk of the country is ignoring it. >> in fact, the message from the convention, from the white house is just the opposite of that. when you have that couple from st. louis sitting in their parlor talking about they're coming for you next. the suburbs are going to be abolished. we know what that coded language means. we will go back to kenosha later in the show. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll get into night two of the republican national convention which blurred the lines between campaigning and governing. jonathan la mere joins us with his latest reporting. first, bill karins has a check on the hurricane headed to the gulf coast and picking up steam. bill? >> willie, this is one of the pit in my stomach mornings seeing this satellite image behind me filling up the entire

gulf. the storm is intensifying quickly and it's getting larger in size. it will push more water towards the coast. let me explain what all of this means and tell you where the worst of this is going to be. i certainly hope that the federal government is getting its resources together now and putting them in place to head to louisiana. they are going to need a ton of help when this storm is over with. massive power outages throughout the state. homes just devastated. lake charles is in a lot of jeopardy, too. 110 mile per hour winds. this has gone through rapid intensification. it is still rapidly intensifying. hopefully that will stop before landfall. hurricane center says category 4. landfall later on tonight, midnight to 2 a.m. lake charles, beaumont, port arthur. it has not shifted towards houston. then the storm rains itself out as it goes up north. we care about what's going to happen where the devastation and destruction is. if you are being told to

evacuate, you have to go. a 10 to 15 foot storm surge is going to be historic. that will be like rita or ike. all through the southern half of western louisiana's coast line. that will be a record. just to let you know how far inland it's going to go, 30 miles is how far lake charles is. they're expecting a 9 to 12 foot storm surge. at 13 feet the river floods half the city. that's how serious of a situation this is right now. of course we still have to deal with the hurricane force winds moving inland. this is the wind forecast, lake charles, cameron over 100 mile per hour wind gusts expected. you get an idea. first the concern later tonight. this devastation over the storm surge that will destroy communities down the coast especially cameron parish. then we deal with the storm moving inland, heavy rain, gusty winds, power outages. shreveport could gust to 67. power outages in louisiana,

little rock we could see gusts of 40 to 60-mile-an-hour winds. the storm surge is going to be the thing that we have to evacuate. then we have to deal with the damage for weeks. obviously a horrifically devastating storm is on its way for the gulf. pay attention to the managers. get out of harm's way. you still have 12 hours before the storm will be approaching the coast. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ the open road is open again. and wherever you're headed, choice hotels is there. book direct at choicehotels.com. ♪

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democrats convention, we were told to look at joe biden as the model of integrity, but when you look at his 47 year in politics, the people who benefitted are his family members, not the american people. let's take a closer look. we all know about joe's son, hunter biden, a corrupt ukrainian ollie gashing put hunter on the board of his gas company even though he had no

experience in ukraine or in the energy sector, none. yet he was paid millions to do nothing. he only had one qualification that mattered, he was the son of the man in charge of distributing u.s. aid to ukraine. joe says he'll build back better. yeah, build the bidens back better. >> that is former florida attorney general pam bondi repeating the debunked claims that the former vice president improperly intervened in ukraine to protect his son hunter. bondi's false claims about biden and ukraine were the very conspiracy theories biden was trying to get them to impeach trump. we will note president trump's own daughter ivanka and son-in-law jared kushner are top white house advisers and bondi spoke ahead of several members

of the trump family including the first lady, tiffany trump, eric trump who continues to run the trump organization. just this week new york's attorney general filed legal action against the trump administration and has asked them to compel eric trump to testify. are they going with ukraine as an attack on joe biden when the president was impeached over ukraine? >> impeached and the more we find out, the more we learn that actually all of the president's conspiracy theories were lies and been called out as lies by republicans on the senate intel committee. there's no truth to those lies. the intel community said there's no truth to those lies. again, they really allowed somebody to deliver a speech on nepotism? i mean, again, i just -- let's bring in jonathan omere here. still trying to recover from the

magic that happened last night in buffalo. he's going to be writing a new memoir called tuesdays in buffalo. and also washington examiner correspondent david drucker. he's a contributing writer at vanity fair. jonathan, i want to get this right. but they're trying to paint the bidens as corrupt. if i'm not mistaken, correct me if i'm wrong, isn't new york's attorney general actually going after the trump organization for corruption? didn't we get a ruling a couple of years ago that they were banned from future nonprofits in new york state including the children because they mishandled the money so badly? >> reporter: joe, all of that is true. eric trump, the new york attorney general is looking to speak to him.

the nonprofit has been disbanded because of what you said. certainly last night the rnc was competing for viewership with what's going on in buffalo on a tuesday night. but what we also saw yesterday, pam bondi, as you were saying, her attack on nepotism was showing a graphic of tiffany trump and eric trump. that wasn't the only thing -- >> but i want to stick on this for a second, jonathan. forgive me. >> reporter: sure. >> ivanka. didn't ivanka get all of these sweetheart deals with china after the president met with china as far as licenses for her products? i know it would take us too long to talk about the nepotism with the trump family, but can you give us a couple of examples since he's been in the white house of just the egregious nepotism that's taken place

here? forget about the fact that this convention looks like the convention of the south american strong man and his family members running it, but they brought up nepotism last night just like he brings up china when he's been embracing president xi over the past four years and praising president xi. you know, we could go down the list but, again, nepotism, they actually had the nerve, the trump family, donald trump actually had the nerve to bring up nepotism last night? >> they did. there have been a number of examples, joe. you mentioned the trademarks and the branding licenses that ivanka trump has received, that's one. the trump organization has said they have suspended all new international deals since president trump took office. they're certainly still continuing with the ones that were licensed before, including the ones in the very early stages. the trump organization has not ceased all international business. let's remember, the president never fully divested.

that was one of the issues right at the beginning. he sort of says he walked away from it, he turned over the keys to his sons, that's eric trump not don jr. who does the heavy lifting there, but he never fully divested himself. there are questions about the kushner companies including the sale of an office building on fifth avenue that has been looked at and it's raised questions of cozy relationships. the members of the trump family and their in-laws have been able to take advantage of since donald trump took office. >> david drucker, let's talk about what you're seeing at this convention. last night was an attempt, anyway, despite the last few years of donald trump reaching out to women. people of color. he held the naturalization ceremony that was beautiful for the five people standing there. it was done in the white house in the middle of a political question which raises all kinds of questions. what are they trying to push

here? what is the message besides this alternative universe that we've been talking about where covid and this pandemic is in the rear-view mirror? >> right. i think what we've seen over the past two nights is a republican convention trying to undercut vice president biden's core strengths, the fact that he's seen as empathetic, that he's seen as having integrity and that he cares about people and would offer a more competent sort of commanding leadership than the president's sometimes chaotic approach, at least a chaotic attitude in the approach. at the same time they're addressing the president's weaknesses, flight you've heard a lot of speakers talk about the president might seem like he's not always a nice guy, but that's what it takes to get things done. he may not always act the way you want him to act, but he's delivering what you want him to deliver and a normal politician who conducts themselves the way

you would like a leader to conduct themselves, that's actually a detriment. most of those politicians don't get anything done. they've positioned the president with people of color, with women. they've tried to play up the fact that the president is a lot more caring and compassionate underneath all of the bluster and the masculine knit at this than you really think. so two things here. they're trying to bring joe biden's approval ratings down. if we remember 2016 one of donald trump's core strengths was, one, he was running against a candidate seen as disliked and corrupt. he won a healthy majority of voters who said they disliked both trump and clinton and in polls, biden has led in polls where they said i don't like biden, i don't like trump, but i'm going to vote for biden. that's what we've seen. that's what we can expect to see over the next few nights is an attempt to bring biden's favorability back down from

where it popped up to after the democratic convention. >> so, jonathan la mere, talk about what they were trying do last night following up on david's insights and white house officials that you talked to. how do they say last night's festivities play into what the plans are for the next two nights? >> reporter: well, certainly as david said, part of the mission of the last two nights is to soften donald trump's rough edges. it began in october with the world series ad. they said he's not mr. nice guy. they say he needs to be tough to get the job done. certainly they've tried to these past few days humanizing stories, not from his family, congressman jordan, scalise, other acts of generosity from the president checking on sick family members and so on. scalise after the was shot the president spending time with him in his hospital room.

this was already in the works before last week's democratic convention. spent several days really showcasing joe biden's legendary sense of compassion. there's no politician in america that will connect better on grief. the republicans can't connect on that. if they show a different side they might win back some of the people he's lost. this is not an effort to swing new voters over, but suburban women and seniors who have disapproved of the tweets and sometimes his callous handling, lack of empathy dealing with the pandemic, they're hoping this will assure them. people who want to vote for him but have talked themselves out of it. that's part of the mission. they're making an appeal to voters of color. we saw the naturalization ceremony at the white house. the pardon of a nevada man done during the event last night. and touting the president's criminal justice reform.

most of yesterday could have been characterized as a wild violation of the hatch act which prevents pure political activity. secretary of state pompeo's speech in israel, same thing. last night was trying to taut what he's accomplished at the same time present an alternate reality where covid barely exists. we saw larry kudlow was on. the spotlight was on the first lady which included entire passages lifted word for word from michelle obama speech. she is the one who took on the virus. she is the first of the keynote major republican speakers to express sympathy, comfort, grief who have been dealing with this deaf va stating pandemic. >> it would have been nice to hear about the grief in the last six months. david drucker, who is the

audience precisely for this election? we know president trump's base is with him. as he said famously, i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and they would be with me. if you're an msnbc viewer you can't believe what you're hearing. you're living in the reality of this pandemic and you can't believe it's being ignored here. who are they talking to? what are the states they're addressing? what are the groups of people? >> right. so let's remember, too, that as well as joe biden is doing in national polls, in the battleground states that are going to decide this contest things are closer and they're likely to get closer. the president's campaign has always felt -- when i interviewed him, he said my base is a lot bigger than people think. the president believed that there is more to squeeze out of what we think of as his loyal base. i think the republican party generally looks at the universe of voters that will vote for trump as long as they show up and they think they can improve upon those numbers from 2016 and

clearly they have to improve upon those numbers from 2018. then they're looking to try and sort of reconnect with the traditional part of the republican coalition that was so crucial to his victory four years ago. we talk about voters in the heartland. the truth is given how close those states were, the reason the president was able to pull that off was not just them. he kept the traditional suburban part of the coalition, the exit polls show that he won suburban voters. if he can approve the numbers with the traditional part of the coalition, that he doesn't like the way he conducts himself and doesn't like the populism, he can reassemble what worked four years ago and part of this is to try and communicate if you're a disaffected republican that thinks joe biden is an okay leader where you just wouldn't vote for clinton four years ago but, hey, biden is somebody i know and like even if he's a little bit liberal, they're

trying to say he's a lot worse than you think. i think the challenge they've had with biden is they've been throwing spaghetti at the wall trying to see what works. four years ago all you heard was crooked hillary every single day and every single night and it was very effective. also, it was on message. what you're hearing this time around is one minute it's about his family and the next minute it's about his vice presidential tenure. the next minute maybe he's not that liberal but his supporters are, and they haven't found a way to deliver a cohesive message that's effective. they're trying to talk to their base. they're trying to talk to the traditional portion of the republican coalition because people forget that's how he was able to put it together last time around. >> to your point, we heard a couple of times last night speakers talk about joe biden as the leader to defund the police movement when he has said again and again and very explicitly he does not support defunding the police. david drucker, always good to

have your perspective. the summer beard is working for you. >> thank you. with two months to go until the presidential election, two top allies and his campaign manager break with him over the issue of mail-in voting. we'll explain that in just a minute on "morning joe." facing . so here's to the strong, who trust in our performance and comfortable, long-lasting protection. because your strength is supported by ours. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you.

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most at risk: our seniors, vulnerable populations with pre-existing conditions. we need real plans, real guidelines, with uniform nationwide standards. it's a simple proposition folks, we're all in this together. we gotta fight this together. we'll emerge from this stronger because we did it together. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. ♪ ♪ ♪ the open road is open again. and wherever you're headed, choice hotels is there. book direct at choicehotels.com. ♪

hey, rev. i want to show you video that i saw yesterday. i want to get your take. look at this. so there are other angles that show even more. white protestors claiming to be part of black lives matter went and harassed other white diners

in dc. screaming and yelling at them, trying to force them to raise their fists and join in. in this age of social distancing where this poor woman is leaned back with a mask, trying to keep this crowd that is shouting at her constantly out of her face, a safe distance away, they just keep going. rev, it was a mob scene. and you have known john lewis for a long time. i worked with him for eight years, and i see this sort of activism, and tell me if your take is the same as mine. this sort of activity does violence to john lewis's legacy and life mission. >> it does violence to the legacy of john lose, and it does

violence for those seeking justice for people like jacob blake, george floyd, and others. we're still trying to go to trial on george floyd's case. we're still trying to get charges for breona taylor. for the per serpgs thception th are mobs out there, just gives fuel for people to say i had to do it. a lot of people that claim to be black lives matter are not black lives matter. we work in different tactics and different fields, but we at nash action network, we work with other chapters that are tactical and strategic.

to go, what is the point of achieving justice to have a mob in a restaurant and not observing social distancing? it might express your feelings, but it doesn't help the strategy and it's not discipline. the one thing that that generation that taught me is that if your anger is misguided you become a weapon for the enemy. trump wants to use scenes like that as commercials. they want to falsely promote that these people are going to run you out of your houses and restaurants. we should not play into that, that's not who we are. >> he wrote on social media want to be an ally? don't do this. white people screaming at people

to raise their fists in the name of the black lives matter movement doesn't help the black lives matter movement. >> i think that point is the key. if you want this to be a larger conversation about how do we make the country better, how do we make everyone feel like humans in this country that interaction is not going to help that. if you have a lot of people yelling in your face you don't want to engage in that conversation. if thisemblematic of what we're seeing across the could be tr country. it is easy to take the footage

that is the most exclusive because it shows something, but we have to remember there are a lot of people not conducting themselves the way that the people in dc were conducting themselves. we have to have that conversation and it can't be just straight up yelling. >> we need to talk about what is happening there, in portland, and truly as jackson said, the conversation about violence in kenosha, she says it has to stop. her son would want it to stop. it doesn't represent who he is and it does not represent what black lives matters and other protestors for civil rights are pursuing right now. violence does nothing but set back the cause. and as reverend al said, play to the hands of those that would

like to undermine all of those efforts. so jonathan, what are you looking at today other than the barn burner in buffalo tonight. >> the best thing about playing in buffalo on a tuesday is playing there on wednesday, too. first of all, you said the mother of the victim there in kenosha spoke very powerfully. i think it will be a backdrop of that today. will it shape some discussion tonight, that remains to be seen. also the powerful hurricane about to make landfall. that will also be a split screen for the events here in washington. first there is a little growing worry among democrats about the lack of counter programming from their ticket. let's remember last week in the democratic national convention president trump was everywhere. he was omnipresent holding

events around the country. the democrats sent out talking points but we have not really seen joe biden and kamala harris. the main event tonight is mike pence. we should also expect some more surprise cameos from one donald j. trump. >> traditionally the party not holding the convention week has always laid low. give them their week, let them have their week, and then we will respond. donald trump can never stay out of the way. i personally think the old way of doing things, let them have their week. let them stumble over themselves, we'll get all we need out of that week and then hit them at the end. that does seem like a better strategy to me. >> yeah, and by and large democrats have done that this

week. jonathan, thank you. still ahead, hillary clinton has some advice for joe biden if the election is close. do not concede under any circumstances. we'll play her argument for you when we come back. er argenumt f when we come back.

♪ ♪ it's going to be one krooz week. >> rnc, going to be a crazy w k week ♪ ♪ it's got rudy g, and rudy's bottom teeth, say goodbye to democracy ♪ >> you can't do that to the jackson 5. that is not allowed. that is over the line. we have former u.s. senator claire mccaskill, the cohost of show time's "the circus" john

hileman. we have writer for "the washington post" jonathan capart. also noah rothman. mia in the south of france. she will be back tomorrow. remember when i used to do that. talk about the south of france -- they would believe that she was in the studio on tuesday, the south of france on wednesday and back in the studio on wednesday. how does she do that? so why don't we -- we have great guests, why don't we just go around and just get everybody's

within of the first few nights of the rnc. at the beginning of the week, you have poles, biden is up by ten, most of the swing states, maybe it is three, four, five, six points. that seems to be the range. but there is no doubt that he needs to pick up voters through this convention. have you seen themes that you think will help him do that? >> last night he tried. i don't think he even tried on the first night. if that feature last night, or the features on monday night seemed foreign, they are familiar to his base. if you listen to a lot of speeches, that is the message for the base.

what about voters in the suburbs. i think there was an attempt to try to humanize the president for suburban women and people of color. there is no denying that the under lying theme here is that the president is not responsible for this coronavirus pandemic. they're painting him as a hero that road in to stop it. that defies everything that we have in front of us, all of the evidence we see as we approach 180,000 dead. this is the story at the center of people's lives. as an economic crisis as 30 million people have lost their jobs in the last six months. that has been brushed to the side. larry kudlow talked about it. melania trump expressed sympathy for those that lost loved ones and lost a job. that is about it.

donald trump saying if not for him it would have been worse. >> when melania trump made the community she ma comment it was the first time in any programming that any speaker at the republican national convention expressed any sympathy for those that lost lives or jobs because of coronavirus. that gives you a sense of how disconnected this event has been from the overriding realities that govern, that have been defining our existence. the virus, the economic fallout, and all of the issues relaced to brutality and racial justice. it's an alternative universe. i think you're right that you could see very ham handed attempts to do very basic work. everything is in primary colors with this party, but the big

challenges they have, they need to inspire a bunch of -- not just their base, but to drive out people who would have been part of the trump base in 2016 but didn't vote. white noncollege voters in battleground states. all of that red meat they're throwing. and the impulse to solve the problem that trump has with upscale suburban moderate voters. those two are already at universe. it is like a schizophrenic convention playing out. and then the big challenge that may must make this election a choice and disqualify joe biden. if this race is a referendum on donald trump he will lose this race. donald trump's team understands that. i think that is certainly the view of political analysts playing out, and everything about this is about donald

trump. it doesn't make the -- it is not serving the choice of making it a choice, it is making it all about donald trump. the spect kal of two dical of t political self pleasuring seems to fight what the convention should be about. i could go on, claire mccaskill will comment about the public house, how gross it was for them to use white house and other pieces of official process and places to do their political work, but that was another thing that really food out astood out unprecedented. >> and claire, i want to go to

noah first. we have spent our lives, and please correct me if i'm wrong, we have spent or lives voting for republican presidential candidates. it seems to me that the first thing they would want to do is nail down that base and bring some of those people back. at the same time disqualifying joe biden. what have you seen so far in the first two nights? do you think that they're accomplishing that goal halfway through this convention? >> so this is most certainly donald trump's convention. it is all about him, of course, and there is a lot of bombast. particularly with the creatures that have orbited him, they appear to a lot of bombast and it is allot of white noins. i think this is very smartly

done by giving a permission strer to those that voted for trump in 2016. for those that abandoned the party in 2018. there are a lot of accomplishment themes that appeal to people like me. unconditional patriotism. this is not fringe stuff. it is not out there, it is grounded in a conservative ethos. not a lot of people are watching this. i would be shocked if anyone remembers a single line from any of these speeches in november, but they will remember an atmosphere. and to the extent that you're appearing to a narrow band of voters, it is targeted at them and i think it is a little effective.

i would be surprised if it gives people who don't feel like they can vote because of donald trump's character a reason to feel like they can vote for republicans up or down the ballot. >> probably what we're seeing now is going to be watched away fairly quickly. trump is trying to soften his image. it will be children in cages. it will be the father and his young daughter dead in the water face down if will be babies being ripped from their mother's arms, it will be stories of the trump administration, of the cabinet sitting around a table and all of them raising their

hands agreeing that the policy of tearing chirp frldren from mother's arms, putting children in cages, was an effective way to run policy. i know that is an awful lot, to throw out there, but that is what biden's campaign and the democrats are going to have to put in 30 second ads and on the internet in the next 2.5 months. you know i have to tell you, my pleasure is stiblood pressur. i'm damn mad about what he did to the people's house. the trashing of the people's house for his raw political needs. his ego, his narcissism. the nerve of this guy to use those people as political props

against the rules. you're not supposed to use government buildings for government purposes. they talk about law and order, but the laws don't apply to them. they don't have to follow the law. they're in power. this is exactly what people can't stand about people in power. people who abuse it and think the laws done apply to them. those five people put up there like problems. i guarantee you that under donald trump's purported policy, they would not be allowed to come in this country. he doesn't want them in the country and it is clear by the way he has acted. we were told as children it's not what you say, it's what you do. what he has done is be the most antiimmigration president in history. he caged children, he committed

the worst human rights abuses you can do, ripping children from their families. i'm done with these guys. i'm so sick of their preening, their posturing, and their bs. >> that is the thing. four nights of a convention can't paper over three-and-a-half years of policy and three-and-a-half years of the way they treated people. we saw people talking about religion freedom despite the fact that they called. she ignored her own husband's behavior, you can put on a gauzy pageant, but it's not refrequentive of what happened in the bidding where they're holding it. >> i hope the democrats, particularly the biden and harris campaign were watching

claire just now and they should take that rage and that up set, and offended feeling, and bottle it. that is the alternate view that we're getting from the republican national convention. they're pretending as if covid is in the rearview mirror. the economy never cratered. people will think the unrest in the street has nothing to do with african-americans being shot in the streets by vigila e vigilantes or law enforcement. this -- the fact they are trying to pretend and force their view on the rest of the country is galling. but this, i think this will be the first time that you and i agree on something.

i agree with noah. they are setting up a permission forum. they don't like the tweets, i have long believed that president trump has not been running a popular vote, reelection strategy. he has been running an electoral college reelection strategy. that is why he is talking to his base. for a lot of people it is not

just in the trump administration, but for years now. if your world view is the fox news world view and you have four straight days of a republican convention reinforcing that view that everything is fine, look, there are black people on the stage. that makes me feel comfortable. maybe he is not a racist. i can vote for him and that is what democrats need to keep in mind. an election that we all know could possibly be close. when the president is doing that, when the republican national committee is setting up that permission structure, democrats need to bottle claire's anger and use it to chip away. break that permission structure down, it needs to be broken down. >> and of course there are people they know, people that i have been talking to that supported trump in 2016 who, all

along, would say well, you know what? i'm going to have to vote for him again. i can't vote for bernie sanders, i can't vote for elizabeth warn, she is a socialist. and biden will never get it. the second that biden got it, they're like aoc really runs the party, nonsense like that. they're looking for things they can take. they are voting for a guy that can use racial anamous. spewing hatred against hispanics and other non-whites. so i just got to say, if people can be convinced by what they

have seen at this convention, they really, really want to be convinced. this is a guy who for thr three-and-a-half years has trashed all of the ideas, small government, paying down the debt, pushing back on russian aggression, supporting nato, supporting freedom across europe, he trashed all of that. sending them letters to kim jong un. sending tweets to the head of communist china, and admiring him for consolidating power in a way in a no chinese leader has consolidated power. praising -- i could go, i could literally go on all day on the things that he has done. that under bimines american

conservati conservatism. that said, it is a close election. two or three weeks ago people were talking about this is other, but there is a tightening. you look at change research. wisconsin and 49-44%. they have michigan at 50-44%. pennsylvania only three points, 49% to 46%. i'm still shocked that pennsylvania is that close. i don't understand that. florida makes more sense. i expect arizona to stay tight. biden is up by one point, but that is too close to call, but

michigan and wisconsin, five or six points. those are tightened. pennsylvania, florida, arizona, all tight. this race if you get a narrow band of trump supporters that supported him in '16, abandoned him in '18. if they can be persuaded by that it could be a close, close race in the end. >> joe, there is no doubt that it is tightening up. everyone expects that that is in the business of politics. but i don't think what people do expect, even the professionals, is the toxicity that the closeness will bring. the closer we get to election

day we'll see a reprise of what we're listening to. a campaign based on fear, and the ability to use that fear to manipulate votes. it will be immigration. the wall. black people coming to your neighborhood. violence, law and order. it will be "be very afraid people, because trump is the only one to protect your white american against what will happen if joe biden is president." i don't know if the country is up for this. as you know i have been around for a long time. i have seen a guy that you helped push out of congress. newt gingrich saying it is not enough to defeat your opponent, you must demonize and destroy

your appointmeopponent. now we have a cam bane based on fear on one side, joe biden on the other, strap yourselves in, america. >> donald trump tried the caravan route in 2018. it certainly worked in missouri against claire and she talked about hearing on the ground, but also sending troops to the border. people lying about lep oracy coming to the united states. coming through foreign invaders, the caravan, fox news breathlessly saying the caravan is now south of mexico city. they continued and donald trump continued, and after the election, after democrats won a historic landslide. oh my god, the carr vavan went

away, poof. this great threat vanished once it was clear. democrats won a sweeping historic landslide. i don't know, it didn't work in 2018. is it going to work in 2020? >> and if you're a chant supporter, maybe you should be saying where is the wall? the one that you promptseised. you had control of congress for the first two years. where is the wall? that is the first question i would ask if i was a trump supporter. and claire mccaskill, joe is right, after the country watched the trump administration for a year and out republicans were wiped out in historic fashion. do you believe in the suburbs in a place like st. louis, is the

suburbs where they are in 2020 or trump in the same way they were in 2018? ready to vote against him? and the integrity, and no one is excited about electing a liar. the ones that are nuts say that is the media making up things about him. but anyone paying attention knows this is a guy that lies so easi easily. folks in the suburbs don't like that and they're not going to buy that they're in danger of black people invading their suburbs and taking away their way of life. that's just not going to work.

especially with women. women get this guy at this point. that's why you see a historic gender gap. him having to pay the legal fees for the porn star that he committed adultery with right after his wife gave birth. that was this week. that is a reminder to all of the women who this guy really is. >> noah, you look at the it the? is that what they need to pick up to win the presidency, but in arizona especially? but also colorado, montana, nanz, a lot of states on the bubble. do they have to get those?

>> there is questionest about if the president should be focuses exclusively on the white working class and the vote that didn't turn out or if they should appeal to the republicans they lost in 2018. i would caution that, listen, covid is the big issue. it cuts against the president. not an issue that favors the president. that is why you heard him mention it once last night. the issue that is a lifeline for the gop is crime in america's cities and mob violence. this is not something that they can afford any more. 77% expressed concern over rising crime rates. a poll showed that six in ten

voters said it was as big of an iss issue. violent crime rates have increased nearly 40%. it is a big problem. the democrats left the issue, they let republicans frame it, and i think it was an act of malpracti malpractice. crime is a major real issue. person safety, the safety of your family is a real issue. it is not simply manufactured. democrats bet ver a ter have a e saying these are acts of conscious in the streets that are in favor of justice and criminal justice reform. the goodness and the neighborliness of americans nap is betrayed by your eyes when

you watch the news and you see people being assaulted in the streets and buildings being burned down. throughout the entire process, throughout the protesting, most americans were able to source through the largely peaceful protests and then the violence. you look at one poll after another and the americans since the '70s, americans supporting those marches and understanding why they were out there. obviously i think, it was right, joe biden needs to speak forcefully against the violence especially in portland and other cities. but if he does that and he speaks forcefully giagainst tha

violence, he will be doing what the mayor of chicago has been doing. he will be doing exactly what reverend al sharpton has been doing. he will be doing what most democratic leaders have been doing. it seems like now is a good time to underline that moving forward. what do you think, jonathan? >> i think what the democratic ticket needs to do is remind people that the vast majority of the protests around the country were peaceful and they had a purpose. and the people that are looting and burning down buildings, that are doing the things that capture the imagination and the television cameras and the attention of republicans that are looking to use that to their advantage, you know we have to remind people that folks took to the streets because of breona

taylor, jacob blake, george floyd. there is a reason that people peacefully took to the streets to protest. there is a reason why for the first time in decades a majority of the country views it as an issue of concern. . i have to remember that people are taking to the streets. the people protesting because they shot an unarmed man in his back. this was not the first time. this is not the second time. this is the first time where we have heard stories why where it has been breaking news. a black person has been shot.

usually a black man unarmed. the country is in need of leadership on this issue. they're not going to get it from this administration. and the biden-harris ticket can and will lean into the fact that the country is hurting on multiple levels. covid, the economy, fear of the unknown and the future, racial injustice, and who are we as a country. i said this on television i guess last week or maybe just talking to friends, but talking about it so much. the thing that worries me about this election from a macro level, what is on the ballot, ultimately, is american democracy or white supremacy. in 2016, i learned the power of white supremacy. and having seen it work in 2016

nap is the thing that makes me most concerned about 2020. we're going to see whether or not the american people are okay with a president who jails babies at the border. who enflames racial tensions. who bullies people. private citizens and elected officials alike. or are they going to side with the american ideal set down in the declaration of independence. the constitution of the united states. the blood, sweat, and tears of martin luther king, and count less other people from the civil rights generation who have left us and who are still walking among us. which america will america choose? >> all right, jonathan capehart.

noah rothman as well. willie i don't think it can be underlined enough. media outlets that have become mouthpieces for the trump administration. it can't be repeated enough. the stereotypes about defunding the police, the riots, it is just a lie. you know we had jim clyburn on. he is aggressively criticizing the violence, the defund the police movement. we had mayor lightfoot saying she would bring those who were violence and broke the law to swift justice in chicago.

going through other leaders. joe biden has even talked about it it as well. it seems to be something they need to keep under lining and that is yes, we aggressively support justice for those who have not been shown justice. we support like the overwhelming majority of americans the marches that we have seen since the killing of george floyd, and the violence that as, again, we heard from julia jackson yesterday, does not represent her son. does not represent the legacy of john lewis. it seems to me that message

needs to be underlined in the biden campaign. >> and they said that yesterday in kenosha, wisconsin. saying it was appalling to see that. it is counter productive to the message their trying to get out about black justice. new cdc headlines that could have an impact on coronavirus testing and tracing. plus new questions over president trump's emergency approval of blood plasma treatment for hospitalized covid-19 patients. ♪ book two separate qualifying stays and earn a free night. the open road is open again. and wherever you're headed, choice hotels is there. book direct at choicehotels.com.

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look it will be a close election. it all comes down to the electoral college. i think they have a couple scenarios they're looking toward. one is messing up absentee balloting. they believe that helps them. so that they then get maybe a narrow advantage in the electoral college on election day. we have seen a couple cases like in wisconsin where they did everything they could to mess up voting. because courts ordered absentee ballots to be counted if they were postmarked on election day, democrats actually won some important races there. in detroit the republicans had 40 lawyers challenging absentee

mail in voting and a local reporter talking to one of the laws he knew was told it was a dry run for november. we have to have our own teams of people to counter the force of intimidation that the republicans and trump are going to put outside of polling places. this is a big organizational challenge. but at least we know more about what they're going to do. and joe biden should not concede under any circumstances because i think this will drag out and i do believe eventually he will win if we don't give an inch. if we're as focused and relentless at the other side is. >> this is sounding a lot like 2000 that brings back very bad memories. hillary clinton in conversation with her communications director. i'm having flash backs to 2000

where i got a call john hilemann at 3:30 in the morning and they said get to tallahassee right now. and i was like why, he won? in dallas there was democratic lawyers all over the state. republicans, you know, and republican that first weekend of counting? bush lost a ton of votes because of challenges throughout the state. it took the republicans time to catch up, but from what hillary clinton says, it sounds like they have learned from 2000. i think this election, even if everybody's vote is eventually counted, we're probably looking at 2000 all over again. a 30 or 40 day episode.

>> i think worse than that. i think you could have multiple floors. trump's a classic case, my favorite formulation. projection. hillary clinton is giving joe biden advice to steel the election. but people on the right went crazy about this clip. people on the left is like this is sound advice, go hillary, go hillary. the president of the united states saying mail in votes is illegitimate. he is laying the ground work for a post game fight. and trump is going to litigate in those states. hillary clinton is saying we have to be ready to litigate, guys. you see this is taking place on

the biden campaign side just as it is on the trump campaign side. they're all assuming that all of the states you rattled awful earlier, as the race titans, joe biden leading in all of them right now. they are playing out in any or all of the states and maybe more. if there is any place that he can go to challenge bat lots, and i think hillary clinton is saying let's get ready for post game here, guys. that's when this election will get decided, not on election night. what should we get ready for? that is what we should get ready for, for not knowing who the president of the united states is maybe not until 2021.

>> that will wake you up in the morning. john hilemann, thank you so much as always. let's go the coronavirus. the cohost of the podcast "making the call" and author of the book "which country has the world's best health care." also a clinical asis tan professor dr. lippy roy. good morning to you both. dr. emanuel, let me begin with you for the big picture view of where we are. we're very focused on the rnc this week. and two parallel universes. so as the latest nbc numbers

have it, nearly 180 dead of coronavirus in this country. where are we right now? those early hot spots have cooled down. where do you think the country is in it's handling of the crisis? >> first we have seen a migration from new york to the deep south. and in the rural counties in the midwest, where you see explosion. places they thought they were safe we don't seem to be getting our arms around it. we still have sort of conflicting information out there. conflicts over wearing face masks and social distancing. and we have seen, i think, disappointingly that when we "open up" universities,

restaurants, and bars we see explosions of hot spots. many cases where it is easy to transmit. that has me worried for the fall where we're going inside because of the weather and i think that is a big, big worry because we know that inside with crowds over prolonged periods of time is what really spreads this virus. i think we will have a little cooling now as the weather moderates in the south and you can skill be outside in the knot, but in the fall that is where we're going to see some real worry with movement indoors. >> dr. rory, we're right in the middle now. others about to go back to school. schools putting plans in place to the best they can. some doing remote learning. some universitied had--

universities had remote learning plans put into place. so with schools now opening, what concerns, or what hope, do you have for the fall? >> good morning, willie. i have several concerns, actually. you're seeing a recurring theme and pattern throughout the country of schools and universities, and we're seeing a rise in cases. again we already know how this infectious disease works. it doesn't matter if you're a nursing home, a military ship, or a school, if you have people in close contact that is how it will transmit. if you don't have a mask and physical dansing in place you will get more infections. also young people, from children to university and college students, they all can get sick,

get infected, and transmit it to other people. again i -- this goes back to what we have been saying for months. we need a national plan that will be disseminated to every state and community to keep people and students safe. not only will people will going indoors in the fall, we'll have flu season. flu season is just lurking around the corner and that will drive up infections, hospital gags hospitalizations, and it will paralyze the health care system if we don't have these flus in place. get the mess anning clear state and nationwide. >> how maddening is it that dr. roy and others are still asking for a national plan to deal with this crisis? >> well, not only a national plan to deal with the crisis,

willie, but a national plan to articulate exactly the fear, to point to the fear, describe the fear, explain the fear of so many people whose children are about to go out the dooranother. zeke, i'd like to ask you, what would you tell the parents of someone -- a child going to day care, kindergarten up to the third grades, what would you tell those parents, do you send your child off to school? >> i think you have to actually ask the very first question is, how common is covid in the community? if it's very common and lots of people are likely to have it, then school is a bad idea in person because you're going to have a lot of spread. on the other hand, if you're in some communities, maine, new hampshire, vermont are good examples, new york actually is a good example, where the amount of spread is low. you have a very low test positivity rate, then you have a

different circumstance. you don't have as much community spread. if the institution has good hand hygiene, they spread people out, then i think you have a very different kind of circumstance. so, it really depends on your circumstance. but i think you're right, mike, that most of the country -- we haven't gotten our arms to control the community spread and it's probably not safe to go out there. i'm a big advocate for opening up schools. i was a big advocate for opening up summer camp, especially early on where we can do a lot of things outdoors. but you have to do it in the right environment. one of the things i'm very upset about is we haven't invested in schools to create the right environment with hepa filters, with extra classrooms, with extra teachers, with enough space. you just can't do this on a wing and a prayer and sort of, you know, make this on the seat of our pants. you actually have to plan. again, as dr. roy said, you have

to have a national plan. a national plan around testing. a national plan around schools and ppe. we just don't have those things. this administration can't plan and can't execute large-scale challenges. >> and the both of you have been on this show for about six months asking for that national plan. nothing yet. dr. emanuel, dr. roy, thank you very much. let's turn back to the republican national convention, specifically the naturalization ceremony held at the white house. joining us for a fact-check and reporting is jacob soboroff, author of "separated: inside an american tragedy" and with us national immigration reporter for "the new york times," caitlin dickerson. jacob, let me begin with you, for those five people, it was obviously a beautifuler is sxhoen a beautiful moment as they gain citizenship.

as you report this morning, there are a lot of people waiting in line for a ceremony just like that one who can't get it. >> yeah, indeed, willie. it was very obvious what this was. it was a brazen political stunt by the same people who brought you family separation, for tour of 5,400 children in the words of physician for human rights. you're right, this was an incredibly special moment for those five people, a moment they'll remember for the rest of their lives but there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who, by election day, will be waiting for the same opportunity paying $750, being ready to be nationalized citizens but unable to do so because the trump administration refuses to allow them to do those ceremonies virtually. the icing on the cake is that was a ceremony that was overseen by chad wolf, who the gao is illegitimately, illegally serving as the secretary of homeland security. so, these five people,

unfortunately, had probably one of the most beautiful moments of their life turned into a political prop that was galling, in the words of one activist i saw last night. >> chatted wolf and the president of the united states took that moment, which has no basis in what they've been doing, as jake has reported for years, and runs controversy to what they've been doing on the question of immigration. >> yeah. i'm just curious to either one of our guests on this topic, this convention has featured young women from guatemala and a business owner from honduras, to use jacob's term is particularly galling, considering what this administration has done to immigrants seeking asylum from those central american countries. what is the current status of asylum in this country?

has this administration successfully wiped out the ability of people from other countries to seek refuge and safety on our shores? >> so, claire, they have just about wiped out that opportunity. actually in particular for central americans, people from honduras, guatemala, el salvador, it's become almost impossible. and, you know, there are thousands of people actually living in tent camps along the southern border right now. even amid the pandemic, this number of policies that has been -- have been erected to keep them from being allowed to enter the united states and seek refuge has just grown taller and taller and taller, even as we're dealing with this national and really global health crisis. it's hard to know even where to begin with the paradox of seeing a naturalization ceremony. jacob said the icing on the cake was that, you know, this ceremony was overseen by chad

wolf, who gao has said was improper assigned to his job. i feel like there were a few layers of icing. for me, this administration in all the different ways it's clamped down on naturalization on visas, work-based visas, family visas, asylum. they also opened an office to denaturalize citizens, something the supreme court has come out again many, many times throughout american history because that idea of citizenship is so sacred. that's why a naturalization ceremony is such a powerful symbol but it's one that is completely contrary to everything we know and everything we can expect, if there is another trump administration. we have four additional years of president trump. >> guys, i'm up against a hard break so we'll bring you back later this week to talk about this. this issue is obviously not going anywhere. caitlin dickerson, jacob

soboroff, thank you both for your reporting. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the violence in wisconsin followed police-involved shooting of jacob blake and his mother's impassioned plea to protesters. when their growing family meant growing expenses, our agents helped make saving on insurance easy usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. usaa teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. there's no question it's something ♪ alright, style milk ♪ start your day ♪ body fuel, time to play ♪ drinkin' it after class milk ♪

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the economy was rebuilt in three years. then came a once in 100-year pandemic. it was awful. health and economic impacts were tragic. hardship and heart break were

everywhere. but presidential leadership came swiftly and effectively with an extraordinary rescue for health and safety to successfully fight the covid virus. >> boy, that was something. when we were in the -- do you remember when we were in the middle of that pandemic. that was something, man. we never thought that would pass. that pandemic was bad. it's just like cancer. that was bad. remember when people used to get cancer? terrible. terrible. oh, wait. there's still people dying from the coronavirus. we're moving towards 180,000 dead. so, i'm not really sure why larry kudlow, who used to talk about it, just going away quickly. i'm not sure why he's talking about it in the past tense, but, of course, he is consistent, if nothing else. good morning to "morning joe." wednesday, august 26th.

along with me we have willie. also nbc news and msnbc contributor shawna thomas, the reverend al sharpton. mika will be back tomorrow. willie, we're going to get to the big takeaways from night two of the republican national convention. as jonathan lemire put it, covid gets ignored, hat check violations galore, rising 2024 stars and pompeo and melania. the president, ever a showman, mixed official business with campaign politics. you know, it was very, very interesting, willie, that if you looked at this night, it really was an alternative reality. you had larry kudlow talking about the coronavirus in the past tense. you also had melania actually criticizing people who were mean

on social media, and gossipers. of course, never heard her criticize her own husband when he said that mika was bleeding badly from a facelift. or when i was a murderer or when a woman who had passed away tragically 19 years ago, her husband was begging donald trump to stop being so hateful and causing their family extraordinary pain, begging him to stop and he just continued over and over again causing pain for that family. never heard melania say anything then. never heard her say anything when donald trump talked about bleed i badly from a facelift. someone used her child's name in a pun and, oh, my god, locusts were descending from the heaven. it was the end of the -- i guess she's fine with donald trump

savaging other people every day, causing immeasurable pain, being the most extraordinarily hateful, malevolent force in his personal, daily attacks, but she's going to stand up and lecture about gossip? she's inside the house. going to lecture about gossip? and she's going to lecture about the meanness of -- seriously, talk about being shameless, absolutely shameless. peeking of that, another person i know, former florida attorney general, pam bondi, she chased all the conspiracy theories on ukraine.

why? pam, what's in that for you? it's crazy. so, anyway, willie, incredible night of alternative reality, alternative facts. if we're in that world, then i can tell you last night the boston red sox took yet another step towards the 2020 world series. they came back 6-1 halfway through. they beat toronto 9-6. how many times have you and i grown up when we were little kids, sitting on our father's laps and our fathers saying, son, if you can go into buffalo on a tuesday night and beat the blue jays, then you can win anywhere. your dad told you, that right? >> he did. he always said, son, that neutral site, buffalo field, it will break your heart every time if you're not careful. somehow the red sox managed to get out of there. we'll have complete coverage of

the red sox and yankees a little later. you're right about this parallel universe. i think larry kudlow captured it perfectly, talking about in the past tense, talking about a pandemic and being dismissive of it. you listen to the clip again, yes, it was bad. there was death and destruction. then comes the but and this entire convention so far has been about an invented but. the president of the united states stood in the preach. he stopped it from being worse than it was. joe, 178,000 people are dead, 30 million people are out of work. and they're touting the president's response to the coronavirus crisis in this country. it's amazing. we're coming up on 180,000 dead now actually. larry kudlow, that was just one moment in time, but his dismissiveness and willingness to raise president trump up to be the hero of this crisis, it just defies reality when we cover this and watch this. not just us, but americans who live this every day. >> we've seen it unfold over the past six, seven months.

again, if larry kudlow's going to say it's over. again, if they're going to say that donald trump is somehow made this better than it was, looking at the numbers of americans who have died compared to every other country across the globe, without a doubt, we have the worst record by far on every level. but, again, this is a man who said that the coronavirus is one person coming in from china. one person coming in from china. and it was going to go away. that was in january, the same time joe biden said we weren't ready for the pandemic and begged the president to listen to his scientists and doctors who were warning him. and then at the end of february, this is the same president who said, it's only 15 people. soon it's going to be gone in march. he said it was going to go away very soon and told senators to stop worrying about it, republican senators, that everything was going to be fine. he said he wasn't worried about it in march. said it was going to go away in april when things warmed up.

told a group of african-american leaders in the white house that it was going to magically go away. then he started talking about drugs that his own doctors and scientists said weren't proven and wouldn't work. and then he started pushing that. then he started pushing cleansers. disinfectants, injecting disinfectants in bodies. that was the second time his administration had to put out a message saying, basically, please, don't listen to the president. don't put disinfectants in your bodies or uv lights in your bodies. it will kill you. please, don't listen to him. then he said it wasn't going to come back in the fall. then he said it was going to go away. again, it is still with us. we still, of course, lead the world in total coronavirus deaths. the president has lied every

step of the way, every step of the way telling us not to worry about it, that it was going away. you see the number of deaths in ita italy. remember when italy was the great challenge and we thought, well, at least we're not italy. now we're a country with 4.5% of the world's population. we have about 25% of deaths in the world. has nothing to do with testing. that's deaths. on march 10th donald trump said, we're prepared, we're doing a great job with it. it will go away. just stay calm. it will go away. that's on march 10th. and, willie, you're right, despite all of this, despite the fact that he said it's not coming back in the fall, despite the fact his own people know he's been wrong time and time again, this was a president who

pretended last night that it wasn't there. you didn't see masks. many people wearing masks at those events. and you had larry kudlow going out, talking about it in the past tense. they made that deadly mistake over the past six months. 180,000 people soon to be dead in the united states. and it's just been -- it's been extraordinarily bad leadership and with a deadly, deadly consequence. coming up, the governor of wisconsin announces a state of emergency amid violent protests over the police-involved shooting of jacob blake. we'll have the very latest next on "morning joe." it's time for the biggest sale of the year on the sleep number 360 smart bed.

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times by police in kenosha, wisconsin, on sunday, is now paralyzed. his attorneys said yesterday the damage to blake's spinal cord as well as his internal organs is so severe it would, quote, take a miracle for him to walk again. that shooting has sparked protests over racial injustice in cities across the country, some of which have erupted into protests. kenosha police reported two fatalities and also that a third gunshot victim was transported to the hospital with serious but nonlife-threatening injuries. it marked the third night of violent protests in kenosha. about 250 law enforcement officers and 250 national guardsmen were on hand. governor tony evers has declared a state of emergency. yesterday jacob blake's parents pleaded for a justice for their

son and an end to the violence. >> they shot my son. seven times. seven times. like he didn't matter. but my son matters. he's a human being and he matters. >> as i was riding through here, through the city, i noticed a lot of damage. it didn't reflect my son or my family. if jacob knew what was going on as far as that goes, the violence and the destruction, he would be very unpleased.

so, i'm really asking and encouraging everyone in wisconsin and abroad, to take a moment and examine your hearts. >> an eyewitness to blake's shooting told nbc news he heard officers yell, drop the knife, but police in kenosha have not said whether they recovered a weapon. rev, this is, again, a pattern we've watched so many times. we see these individual shootings on video and we see a family full of grief and full of grace, having to go out in front of the cameras and address the pain in their own family, the pain of what happened to their son or their daughter, but also to make an appeal to the country. astounding, you watch jacob blake's father, mother and sister yesterday, the grace they showed. >> it was very moving.

at the same time, challenging. blake's father called me the day before yesterday and asked for our support. in fact, he's joining us at the national march in washington on friday that martin luther king and i are already called. when you look at this young man shot in the back seven times, probably will not be able to walk again, prayfully maybe he will, but certainly paralyzed now. in every way, shape and form does not seem justified. unarmed, nontlenting, running away from the policeman. and yet his mother and father stood there and had a grace about what was going on, calling for peace, calling for people not to do anything that this young man himself would want to stand for. they showed a grace that the country and law enforcement

officials have not shown them. and i would hope that this not only speaks to those that would go out and misrepresent what jacob is about. i hope it speaks to those that investigate in this case that this needs to stop. we need to have laws that will enforce protection of those of us that are subjected to police that take matters above the law, beyond the law, rather than enforce the law. that's what friday's about. that's what this family reminds us as other families in the past. it's not just the video. it's the law and enforcement of the law. we had a video 20 years ago, 25 years ago with rodney king. what we haven't this is a willingness to say to police, you will pay and be accountable if you go beyond and above the law. >> coming up, more from the second night of the republican national convention. plus, former republican governor and congressman, mark sanford's

going to weigh in on the future of the gop. that will be interesting to hear mark's take. coming up next on "morning joe."

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two high profile supporters, bill bill stepian saying, the states in which mail-in voting has already occurred, it's fine by me. he went on to say, it's been proven over years, tim scott of south carolina, another who supported the idea of mail-in voting. he said that in an interview two days ago. so, claire mccaskill, let's take a listen to senator scott and we'll get you on the other side. >> this process of mail-in ballots will prove to work out just fine. i think every single american should have the right to vote. how we do so is important, that

we do so is more important. i'm going to have confidence that all the moving pieces will actually fit together and we'll have a very strong, integrity-driven election. >> claire, senator scott is one of the stars of the republican convention. he closed out the night on monday night, going on the next morning on the "today" show and telling savannah guthrie, he's got no problem with mail-in voting, which undermines the entire theme president trump has been pushing out, that this election will be rigged with mail-in voting, with absentee voting. >> there were some things not covered in his speech that should have been in his speech. in fact, it should be in every person who's speaking, who uses mail-in balloting, including the president and vice president. and all of their kids, i'm sure. this is one of the biggest scams going on. the other thing i wish tim scott would address is the violation

of the law that is going on in using the white house for political purposes and the employees of the white house for political purposes. this is a constitutional crisis, willie. and it's not being addressed by congress. and it is something that is going to continue to show itself every night of this convention. my question to the congressional branch, what the hell are you going to do about it? >> this is -- this is the big lie. and this is what donald trump's done over the course of four years, where, you know, in the campaign he talked about build that wall, build that wall, and that was a big lie. we're having an invasion from people from mexico. of course, the numbers were lower than any point in half a century, but he created something. this was government by gesture.

he made up a crisis and he was going to fix it. this is what anne applebaum talks about in hungary, they make up the crisis of muslim invasion and the problem is, for that argument to make any sense, they hardly have any muslim immigrants. the polls tried to dot same thing. that wasn't working so they switched and started talking about how gay and lesbian polls were trying to destroy the country. donald trump makes thing up. we saw the senate intel committee come out with a report that was damning in the trump administration, more damning that the robert mueller report, sent criminal referrals out for don jr. and also jared kushner con fimed many of the worst suspicions of robert mueller and

that investigation. donald trump said russian hoax, russian hoax. he kept repeating russian hoax. there were people in the media enough who were shameless enough, stupid enough to repeat russian hoax. they would go back to the steele dossier and ignore all the other things. the mountains and mountains of evidence. willie, of course, what the president's done now, what is he doing now? again, let's take a step back, take a deep breath. what's the president been saying since he's losing in the polls. rigged elections, rigged elections. it's like build that wall. now it's rigged election. here's the thing that's so fascinating, he's surrounded. he's by himself here. mitch mcconnell has said, there's nothing wrong with mail-in ballots. nothing wrong.

we've done it in kentucky. it's worked in kentucky in the past. it's going to work in the future. lindsey graham said the, no problem with mail-in ballots. nothing at all. the president's own campaign manager is saying, no problem at all with mail-in ballots. yet we have dejoy going on capitol hill and still trying to figure out, why were those machines disassembled? why were they torn up? why were they taken out? who ordered it? because dejoy, who's in charge, says he doesn't know. and why aren't they just going to turn them back on? again, maybe -- maybe there are good answers to those questions? maybe those machines are just old. maybe it was due for a rotation. maybe they needed to take the two or three out of grand rapids, whatever the local reporters were saying.

but they're not providing any answers. dejoy is not providing any answer. so, it looks like it's just chaos. like they are trying to stir chaos. they're trying to slow down mail. we've all heard that delivery time has slowed down to pretty extraordinary degree. what's donald trump doing? again, spreading the big lie, rigged election. rigged election. it's going to be a rigged election. and trying, i think, it certainly seems that way, trying to stir chaos in the united states postal service. so, when, for instance, in florida, the president leads on the day of voting like he did four years ago, he can say, we win, because hillary clinton when you count all the absentee

votes and mail-in votes, she was actually ahead 2.4%. but same-day voting is when donald trump does best. so, that's why he's trying to undermine this. so, he can quickly declare victory before all the votes are counted. what's he doing? he's spreading the big lie. and the big lie is rigged elections. so, willie, that's -- i mean, it's pretty straightforward. you talked about the wall earlier. we're going to build the wall and mexico's going to pay for it. then it was the russian hoax. now it's this. >> yeah. a candidate who thought he was going to win, at this point it's still early. at this point would not be pushing the idea the election is rigged. of course, he's softening the ground for a loss. we need to say as much as we possibly can, a delay, we said it earlier this morning, a delay in the outcome, the idea we

won't know who won at 11:00 eastern time on november 3rd does not mean what donald trump has said, that there's chaos and corruption. the election has been rigged. it means there will be many more mail-in votes this time around. they have to be counted and they have to be certified. that's important to say, don't take the delay, don't let that big space that the president will seize on as corruption and chaos take it for what it is, the process at work. we did talk earlier about democrats not doing much counterprogramming this week during the rnc. some republicans, though, are stepping up to provide an alternative view with the convention unfounding principles. joining us now, the organizers of that event, executive directors of the group stand up republic, evan mcmullen and mindy finn, and with us, former republican of south carolina, mark sanford, who is speaking at the event. good morning to all of you. evan, let me begin with you. what is this group exactly and what's the message you're hoping

to put forward? >> good to see you, willie and joe. look, we are trying to offer counterprogramming, as you said, in opposition to the president's nomination or renomination by the republican party. but also to articulate a principles-based, unifying vision for a future for all americans. you know, the republican convention this week is a celebration, if you can call it that, of one man suggesting that this -- and not -- won't even offer a platform this week, meaning there are no ideas or solutions for the many problems facing the country. and in we know that that's no way -- that's no way to lead america and that's not going to provide a bright future for america. stand up, our organization and partner organizations, including principles first, make integrity great again, and others are all coming together to hold this convention, to stand for our founding american principles, which we think are key to our

future success as a nation. >> you know, mark sanford, i remember the day i first met you in 1994, end of 1994. must have been december. we got elected in november. went up in december. everybody met. we were talking about what we wanted to do over the next couple years. and i remember you, i remember the first time you stood up and addressed the group of, i think -- there were 73 freshmen republicans there. most of us were saying the same thing. you were talking about balancing the budget for the first time in a generation. you were talking about the threat of big governments, the national debt. we were talking about the imperial presidency and the importance of madisonian presidency and checks and balances. the importance of article i powers and we stand up for what our founding fathers had believed would be a proper balance in the government.

nato, the promotion of democracy across -- i mean, you go down the list and everything -- the 72, the 73 of us were talking about after the landslide seems to be the antithesis of what donald trump has been doing the last 3 1/2 years, and the republican establishment, they just don't care. >> well, i'll leave it to you for commentary, but i'll go back to what evan was talking about and what you were talking about from 1994 is what politics ought to be about, which is ideas. what we have lost here of late, and you certainly see it playing out with the rnc convention on a nightly basis, is this notion of political ideas and ideals. people gravitate toward a clear vision, clearly articulated ideas.

i think what is exciting about this counterconvention that's taking place this week is each of us are talking about different things we believe in. that's ultimately what unifies people in the form of parties. i, for instance, am going to talk about some of the threats and dangers that come with spending debt and deficits that are accumulating right now as they are and the need to do something about it. so, i would just say, yeah you c can get a lot of pomp and ceremony at the rose garden and rnc convention, but to this other convention that's going to take place this week actually talking about not a personality but ideas and ideals. >> mike barnicle is with us and has a question. mike? >> mindy, what governor sanford just said, in your counter convention how do you combat what seems to be the major theme of what we've been watching for a couple of nights in the republican convention, the

concept of fear? fear is the motivating factor to vote for this one person, donald trump. how do you combat that? >> first of all, you're absolutely right. our politics have become much more about scarele off your side from the other side other than win them to your plans and to gov the country. our politics has become a lot of infotainment. it should inspire and bring people along. as you're alluding to, the republican party in particular under the reign of donald trump has given up on the governing side of the equation. how you combat that is your question. you know, it's kind of interesting because we see a lot of republicans turned off on the republican party commenting on the convention, lamenting about it. the reality is, they don't have to tune in.

we're trying to give them an alternative. if you give them an alternative path that offers hope, that offers inspiration, that offers actually policy solutions to the modern challenges in our country, we believe it's not easy. it's not easy to counter the juggernaut of the republican party. i worked within the rnc in a couple different stints. we have more money than what to do with. it's hard to combat that right away. slowly and surely and methodically, you continue to build a counter movement. you offer a counter vision. i'm motivated to do this for the next generation. governor sanford and evan are absolutely right. our founding principles need to underpin our politics. the reality is, we're not going back to 1994. this is about the future. you have young people, 18 to 24, 35, who are voting for democrats overwhelmingly. it's not that -- it's not that they're all super left. they tend to lean left. what they see in the republican party today is anti-immigrant,

they see a lot of racism. it's just absolutely unacceptable. offering them an alternative vision now means we'll be on a path in the future where there's hope for this next generation that we can have a politics that offers more decency, that offers more competence, that can actually address some of the modern challenges that our country faces. you know, pandemics, climate change, you know, division. disinformation. all of this is not going away. so, we think offering a hopeful, positive, substantive vision to it the infotainment and the fear is the way to go. >> evan, i'm curious, these suburban republicans, particularly women, who are rejecting the immoral and unethical presence in the white house, and the republican senators, my former colleagues, many of them are my close friends, how are they going to

turn around? how are they going to -- after trump is gone, are they going to stay in this trump space or do you believe they will come back to caring about things like debt and deficit and telling the truth? >> you know, senator, it's good to see you. that's such an important question. you know, the truth is, we've all been disappointed by what we've seen. you've been disappointed by what you've seen in your former colleagues. i've been disappointed in what i've seen in friends in congress and people who i admired, leaders who i admired. many of us have felt that. you know, i don't know what they'll do. certainly it hasn't showed them -- the last few years haven't been their best years, obviously. and perhaps it showed us a bit about the truth of their characters and their backbones and their ability to lead, frankly. and, it was remarkable seeing them going in 2016 from, you

know, thinking trump was a joke to being annoyed by him to fearing him to ultimately seeing political opportunity in his rise for themselves. you know, many of us saw that, you saw that, i saw that. i don't know. i think trump will have an incredible amount of influence over the republican party even if he's defeated and actually leaves office, which i think is a question in january. so, you know, as long as he can tweet and speak, he's going to have a great deal of influence. and i think that as long as he does that, there's going to be a strong portion of the base that's going to want to be with him. there are going to be leaders who take advantage of that politically and try to capture the electoral and fund-raising value of that with rhetoric that kind of sounds like trump, trumpian rhetoric. it's going to be a struggle if he loses and actually leaves office, which i think those are the first two fights over the next several months. but after that, if he's out of

office, there's probably going to be a fight in the republican party. we'll see how that goes. if we can't pull it away there trumpism, we'll have to go in a new direction and replace all of them one way or another. >> so, let me ask you, mark, about the future of the republican party post-trump, because a lot of people are talking about it. whether it's in 2021 or 2025. you are someone who was elected to congress, i think, three terms. then elected to governor, south carolina. after serving as governor of south carolina, you then went back and served in congress and only got defeated when you considered insufficiently loyal to donald trump. is there a future for that party that throws out someone who's a reliable conservative simply because they didn't buy into the

personality cult? >> i don't know. that's the scary part. going back to claire's question a moment ago, what's really scary is the legs on something like this. there's this phenomenon of talking to voters as we were walking neighborhoods, wlu in florida or me in south carolina, where you'd run into somebody who was older, but they actually turned the age when roosevelt was up and you went to the aftermath of the depression and world war ii. they locked in, once they locked in for the next 40ers yao, they turned democrat. i think the truit has legs withe way they will vote as they age. as to this larger question of is there room for more than just a cult of personality, it was the

weirdest thing i've ever experienced, and i talked to a number of other members when i was in congress. the proxy for whether you were conservative or not was, are you for or against trump? i would say, well, i'm neither for nor against trump. i abelieve in these and disagree on others. it wasn't enough. to, are you for or against trump? i've never been faced with that sort of litmus test before in my time in politics. and i think every one of us should find it disturbing because, you know, as tip o'neill said a long time ago, all politics are local. though i might agree with the national party on some inc. thises, when they want to place wells off the coast of south carolina, needless to say folks in tourism a heavy area i represented, didn't think it was such a good idea. how could you possibly stick to your ideals and agree with a party that's gone off the ramps with regard to deficits and spending. how could you possibly agree on

those? this idea of litmus test is disturbing but it is absolutely real right now. how long it lasts, i don't know. >> it is absolutely crazy. again, because the definition for so many republicans today are -- for conservative, do you support donald trump or not? here's a guy again who spent much of his adult life as a democrat, who contributed to hillary clinton eight or nine times, contributed to kamala harris two times. contributed to -- i mean, you can just go down the list. charlie rangel, contributed -- again, it's insanity. again, as i've warned, when he was running, i said he's a big government liberal. as mark was saying, biggest deficits ever. biggest debt ever. biggest spending budgets ever, biggest foreign policy budgets ever, even before the pandemic.

so, yeah, it's very bizarre definition of conservative. one that -- >> but to your point -- but to your point, i think it raises the importance of this counterconvention, convention on founding principles because conservatives are going to need a place to go because right the now, again, to your point, conservativism is not encapsulated in the trump movement and i think that's a real problem. you were going to tell me about burke. >> william f. buckley, ronald reagan would not understand this definition of conservativism because there this is not conservativism. good to see you, former governor mark sanford, thank you. evan mcmullin and cindy fi if evan mcmullin and cindy fi inn well as on their youtube and

facebook pages. coming up, our next guest says president trump keeps taking pages from joe mccarthy's play book. we have author larry tye coming up next. e author larry tye comi up next.

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i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters. >> donald trump's claim during the 2016 claim that our next guest says has a connection with general mccarthy. larry thai, whose new book is titled "demagogue." larry, it's so great to have you here to talk about the topic. i'll be honest with you, is with a little stressed as i opened up the book. man, i get enough bad news.

do i really want to dive in and start reading about joe mccarthy right now? i'm so glad i did. obviously, there are a ton of parallels to what's going on right now. more importantly, for any reader of history, you do your damnedest to paint mccarthy as a three dimensional character and not just as some two dimensional villain that rarely goes below the surface to explain why he did the terrible things he did. >> yes. so, you started with that incredible quote of trump saying that his supporters would support him even if he stood in the middle of fifth avenue and shot somebody. if i could read you a quick quote that george gallup penned 62 years before that about joe mccarthy's supporters gallop said even if it were known that mccarthy had killed five innocent children, his supporters would still probably

go along with him. that, to me, is one of so many chilling parallels and echoes, including what's going on at the rnc today. the kind of name calling -- i'm sorry, go on. >> no, no, i'm sorry. we have a delay here. but really quickly, finish with your thought there and also add to the fact that you have the rnc going along about republican senators meekly going along with this man who is evicerating the republican values as they define them throughout their lives and you show the most glaring example of that happening in 1952 when dwight eisenhower, one of my favorite presidents, refused to read a line that his staff had written for him when he was standing next to mccarthy, to defend the great george marshall. and ike refused to do it. >> so marshall was his comrade in arms during world war ii.

he was his buddy. and fearing that he could lose delegates from wisconsin, eisenhower refused to read the speech that he had prepared. from moment one when ike took office in 1953, his brother, milton eisenhower, whispered in his ear, saying give up some of your enormous popularity and take down the bully mccarthy. eisenhower said he was going to wait instead until mccarthy did himself in during that year and a half that he waited, lives were ruined. a dozen people actually committed suicide because of joe mccarthy. hundreds of careers were crushed and millions of americans were silenced and afraid to speak out. and i think that may have been one of the few things in his life that ieisenhower ever regretted. >> you know, mike bannrnicle, o course, the end of that story

was that ike won easily in wisconsin. did not need mccarthy's support. he was being a coward when there was no reason to be a coward. ike would have won wisconsin in a landslide regardless. >> yeah. not his finest chapter, certainly, especially considering, as larry just pointed out, general george c. marshall was an epic figure in american history, both during world war ii and certainly after world war ii. we can talk today about the marshall plan. that's him. but what else was talked about during that segment with you and larry, michael beschloss, wat debris that mccarthy left around an age when i would submit we knew our own history far better than we know it today,

contemporaco contemporoniously speaking. so if you could, do you think that the debris left today by donald trump is equal to or greater than the debris left by joe mccarthy? >> oh, it's 100 times greater. we're in an age where our dem kr accura ocracy is in much greater danger. joe biden said don't let them take away your democracy. that he the most fundamental issue in this election this fall. look what we've seen the last two days of this convention. a secretary of state, mike pompeo, shattering the tradition that secretaries of state do not meddle by speaking at political conventions. claire mckacaskill said that th

white house has been turned into a convention hall. those new citizens and the president's pardon power. and night after night, the president's family and images of the president and girlfriend of the president's son. images of the president. all of this against the destruction of the postal service. this is what you see in an authoritarian country. all i'm telling you is if republicans are intended to say obama was wrong last week, what we've seen in the evidence of the last two nights and mike pence speaking at the washington monument tonight ft. mchenry where the star spangled banner was still there in 1814, it does not suggest that the chances for democracy a year from now are very bright if donald trump is re-elected. >> larry, you write as you research this book, reading quotes from mccarthy. if you had covered mccarthy's name, some of them could be

uttered today by donald trump some 65, 70 years later. you talk about enablers, people that made mccarthy's rise in his disdained messaging possible. you talked about financial supporters, portions of the american electorate. do you see parallels there as well between the mccarthy era and the trump era? >> i see enormous parallels. the ultimate enabler is us, the american people, that elected mckarthny wisconsin twice overwhelmingly and had him at the eve of the mccarthy hearings in 1954, the second most popular figure in america, a full 50% of americans endorsed what he was doing. the only guy in the country more popular than was dwight eisenhower and yet night after night he showed himself not to be the champion but the town bully in those televised

mccarthy hearings. by the end of the hearings that summer, his support fell to 34%. his enablers started developing a backbone. by that winter, the senate had condemned him. and i think the story of mccarthy is the story of one of the most evil characters in american history, it is ultimately a good news story. and the good news is that with mccarthy and every other demagogue in american history given sufficient rope, they hung themselves and, given sufficient time, the american people rediscovered our better nature and saw through the bullies. >> all right. the new book is "demagogue: the life and long shadow of senator joe mccarthy. larry tye, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. michael beschloss, you look at that story and you look at the n nexus, actually, between

mccarthy and donald trump, and it's right there with mccarthy's council. >> mccarthy's counsel, as you well know was roy cohn, a very evil man, who was donald trump's very personal and close lawyer enabling him in his earlier career, taught him a lot of what he knows. and so there's that link there. but the other thing is, as you know, joe, alexander hamilton was always worried about what he called a daring usurper who would exploit people's jealousies and apprehensions. he wondered whether our system was strong enough to withstand that. i think we're going to see a test of that now. you have a president in office. mccarthy was dangerous, but he was just a senator. this is president of the united states with emergency powers. he talks about the powers that i have, quote, unquote, that i don't even talk about.

powers to declare martial law. and you've got a president who has given every sign that he will do almost anything to win this fall. democracy, liberty requires our eternal vigilance. >> he certainly will do anything he can get away with. michael beschloss, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. wish we had time to talk with mike barnicle and willie geist about the barn burner in buffalo tonight. we'll have to cover that incredible story tomorrow morning. for now, that does it for us. stephie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, august 26th. let's get smarter. this morning, police in wisconsin confirmed two people have died after a shooting during protests in the city of kenosha. a warning. the footage you're about to see is very disturbing. this latest shooting did not appear to involve police t happened in the midst of a third night of