hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. joe biden today stepping into

the space left not only empty but largely vandalized by donald trump, as the country's healer, united and law and justice presidential candidate. the former vice president is holding a community event in kenosha, wisconsin, this afternoon. days after calling for the prosecution of anyone who breaks the law and destroys property or becomes violent in protests there or anywhere in america. here he is speaking to the hostility and anger we've seen emerge. >> i made a mistake about something. i thought you could defeat hate. hate only hides. it only hides. and when someone in authority breathes oxygen under that rock, it legitimizes those folks to come on out. >> biden as well known as a comforter in chief as any figure on the national stage in either political party, met privately today with the family of jacob

blake. according to blake's attorney, those participated including blake's parents and other family members and even jacob over the froen. his attorney saying, quote, jacob jr. shared about the pain he's enduring and the vice president come misrated. the vice president told the family that he believes the best of america is in all of us and that we need to value all our differences as we come together in america's great melting pot. it was very obvious that vice president biden cared, as he extended to jacob jr. a sense of humanity, treating him as a person worthy of consideration and prayer. and then in the other corner, the country's heckler in chief, donald trump, calling for felony voter fraud by asking voters in north carolina to vote twice, while also seeking to rob some of the largest american cities of federal funds, calling them anarchist jurisdictions. "the new york times" reporting. quote, the move is almost certain to face legal challenges

and democrats and city officials reacted furiously. officials in new york said they were reviewing their legal options. new york governor andrew cuomo, little blunter, responding to trump's move, said this last night. >> forget bodyguards, he better have an army if he thinks he's going to walk down the street in new york. no, new yorkers don't want to have anything to do with him. it is -- look, it's more of the same from him. it's cheap, it's political, it's gra tube us to and it's illegal. but it is another attempt to kill new york city. >> and because we are now just two months away from the presidential election, we're going to stop right here for a reality check.

from a new quinnipiac poll, donald trump has made half of all likely voters in the united states of america feel less safe under his presidency. only 35% of voters say they feel more safe because of him. joe biden, who is not fear mongering, who is not treating racial injustice as a zero sum proposition, he's the one in the race with a ten-point advantage on the question of who makes you feel less safe. more safe, 10% more think that biden will make the country safer. trump's polling post his party's convention was summed up this way by "the new york times" today. quote, the new results suggest that the president's effort to reframe the race around law and order at the republican convention hasn't reshaped the race to his advantage. for now, athlete, mr. trump finds himself in an unenviable position. he trails by a wide margin, even at a moment that usually represents the high water mark for the president's party in the polls. more often than not, a president

goes on to fare worse in the election than in polls taken just after his convention. that is where we start today with some of favorite reporter and friends. phil rucker is here. also joining us, senior adviser to the lincoln project, my friend michael steele, and donna edwards. phil, let me start with you. on sort of the poll results. they show that this zero sum proposition represents that the public has evolved. i've been looking back at some of the efforts to use law and order, some of the better known and lesser known efforts, dan lundgren ran for governor in california on the three striks,s you're out, they usually fail at the ballot box, because voters can hold two thoughts in your head, that you can have law, you can have justice without sort of green-lighting or saying you're okay with unjustified shootings

or excessive force against anybody. is there any -- is there any pause or are they, you know, removed the brakes from the maserati, we're going full steam ahead? >> you know, anicolle, there dos not seem to be any pause in the trump strategy. he seems determined to press this message in the remaining, what, nine, ten weeks of this campaign. and then there's no indication of a course correction there, but you raised such an important point about voters. they're not monolithic. they're also not stupid. they're quite intelligent and they're able to see the nuance in some of what's playing out here. you know, a lot of people across this country have been watching the last few months at these police shootings, at the black lives matter movement, many millions of people participated in the black lives matter movement, and they're able to distinguish some of the differences between what they see playing out on some of the, you know, the worst images of violence in the streets and what

this broader movement stands for. and they're able to sort of understand the different messages coming from the politicians. so, i wouldn't sell the electorate short. and we should keep in mind that there's a lot of time left here. we've yet to see biden and trump sort of fully engage one another. the debates haven't begun. we're going to hear a lot more from both of these candidates on this issue of racial justice and on the issue of policing and law and order, so, there's more data points that are going to come into the fore before voters really make decisions. >> phil rucker, i've lost track of who the white house counsel is -- is there anyone on the staff that repeated today what donald trump said yesterday, which was a call for -- i think the president's statements were felons, i think it's a felony to call for illegal voting. and if any of his supporters who heard that or saw it on

television, were to go out and vote twice, they would be committing felony voter fraud, the kind that bill barr said in an interview he hasn't seen any of. tell me in that claim was repeated, if the campaign operationalized it, if donald trump said the quiet part out loud, as ashley parker says, or if that was -- how are they describing or explaining or in the case of this white house, it's usually doubling down on what the president did yesterday, which is criminal. >> well, nicolle, you're right that it's criminal to vote twice and you are also right that ashley parker is correct in this space, as she always is, you know, this is donald trump saying the quiet part out loud. he made this comment publicly. you know, there's been no effort by the white house to apologize on his behalf or to say he was wrong, but i've also not seen the white house amplifying the president's call yesterday and jump in here if somehow they have and i've missed it today, but not in my reporting, at least.

>> you know, i want to turn to what joe biden said on the tape we just played, michael steele, because it reminded me of a moment, i was standing about, i don't know, 20 feet away from john mccain when he jumped in when one of his supporters called then senator obama a muslim and john mccain jumped in and said, no, no, no, he loves america, we disagree on policy. i thought that what joe biden did today sort of cut right to the bone in the way that that moment did when he said, i was wrong. i thought hate was dead, i thought we'd stamped it out, and that may have bin informed by eight years of president obama, i'm not sure what gave him that optimistic view, but he said, i was wrong. and what i see happening in this country is when you have one of the -- the most powerful politician in the land fanning the flames, it comes out from under the rocks. he's making, this week, i think, has been a turning point in the

biden candidacy. he's on the offense on issues of justice and law and order, frankly, with that speech monday. he's in kenosha today, he gave a speech yesterday about school reopenings, something on the mind of every american family, and then today, to sort of make that profound observation that hate's always been there, but the reason it seems to be sort of coursing through the body politic is because of donald trump. >> yeah, i think that's -- i think that's right, nicolle, he -- he started to frame this narrative that we're in right now in a very personal way, in a very particular way, that we've not seen nor heard from donald trump nor should we ever expect to see orp heard from donald trump. donald trump thinks the way he wins is through two things. intimidatio intimidation/fear and law and order. we'll drum up the fear and then talk about law and order and we'll drum up the law and order to push more of the fear and

intimidation. so, you have that going on. meanwhile, people who are actually feeling stuff out here, right, i mean, this -- this stuff is not happening in a vacuum. people are not looking at this about accepticly. they are actually feeling the pain of watching mr. blake get shot and to see the response by the country's leader. so, what you have with joe biden is an acknowledgement that, yeah, you know, like a lot of us out here, i got this one wrong. i thought that we really were past hate. we watched the marches, we watched the water hosing of black men and women, we watched the dogs go after them, we saw the resegregation of their communities and the red lines of their communities and we know the systemic issues around race, we thought we had pretty much turned that corner, until charlottesville, until shit-hole

countries, until the shooting of george floyd, breonna taylor and how this process is now unfolding for countless americans. and he -- he admitted that, and i think it's refreshing to hear someone say yeah, you know what, we're not there yet, and it's going to take a great work to get us there. but what this guy's doing, that's not how it's going to happen. what he's selling, that's not america. that's not the compassion that i know each one of us has. and so, when you layer on top of that the story of the private moment that he had with the family, with, you know, all of that pain and acknowledging that in a real sense, and i'll say that, on behalf of the country, because it hasn't happened with the president, i think could be a very important turning point. how we absorb that remains to be seen, but for the biden campaign, i think they got him on a good footing to now go out and talk a little bit more in that space.

>> i mean, and just to follow up with you, michael, i mean, everyone is feeling some degree of this pain, and i'm not saying everybody agrees on how we solve it, i'm sure there are some trump voters who just feel fear, but you're right, i mean, donald trump is so politically limited by his inability to -- not a cli clintonian ease of feeling pain, but joe biden's -- unfortunately, my life has had painful moments so, i know exactly how you feel right now, and that ability to hold the country seems to not have a partisan bend to it. let me just show you how he's doing in -- these are not blue states, these are not, you know, elite states, this is wisconsin and arizona and on the -- fox news poll, no less, on the question of who voters in those two states prefer to handle policing and criminal justice, this is donald trump's, you know, secret weapon, this is how donald trump thinks he's going

to get a second term and spear himself criminal prosecution where he's individual number one in sdny case. 47% prefer the joe biden. in arizona, you know, john mccain -- this is at republican as you get in this country. donald trump trails joe biden on the narrow question of law and order, on policing and crime. i want to ask you if you think -- i guess some version of the same question i asked phil rucker, do they sort of throw in the towel and go back to fear mongering and something else or -- what do they do with that? >> no, they're not going to throw in the towel. i mean, they haven't thrown in the towel, nicolle, they've ramped it up. they've actually kind of moistened the towel with more of this crap. and so -- >> you're right. >> they're not trying to wring it out, they're trying, you know, mop up more of it, sop up more of it and fling it at the american people.

here's what i assess, after looking at this over the last week and thinking about it, what donald trump is doing, and this happened before. and the interesting thing is, it's not like we haven't been here before. whenever the african-american community begins to talk about its pain and it begins to respond to that in a very vocal and outward way, protests, et cetera, what is the anti-septic to that? what is it that gets thrown out there? white fear, right? now, all of a sudden, we're moving off what happened to the blake family and what the pain they're going through and the pain that briana taylor's situation, where police still haven't been held accountable and the narrative around george floyd and then on top of that, all the other stuff we got to deal with, right? so, that pain is now having to take a backseat because white folks are suddenly afraid. they look around and they see, you know, a trash can burning 1,000 miles from their home and they're afraid. and that's the part -- that's

the stuff that trump is trying to sop up and regurgitate and push back out there to say that you should be afraid of that trash can burning, you should be afraid of that looting. there's -- black folks aren't standing up, saying, that's what we want, that that's how we're going to solve this problem. the blake family's made it very clear, that's not reflective of their son. as we heard from other african-american families who have been in this situation, that that is not the go-to. but yet, that's the narrative they want to push out and so, i'm hoping, to phil's point, that america looks at this and uses all of those faculties to understand exactly how they're getting played, which is why i put out there, don't get punked, america, by what trump is doing, because at the end of the day, you know better and you're smarter than that, and you understand what's happening and you know you're not afraid. you're concerned, yes, you don't want to see it happen, but you're not afraid in the sense

that oh, my god, i don't want to address the problem. because the problem is still going to be there when your fear, whenever it's relieved, is relieved. >> donna, you and i have been on the air together during some of these first public grieving moments of the family members and i remember watching george floyd's family come out in the earliest days after his killing and call for calm, as michael steele's saying, i -- i was on the air when jacob blake's mother pleaded and implored for calm, rayshard brooks' family, sitting in all of their immeasurable grief, calling for calm in atlanta. it seems that that dynamic michael steele is talking about hasn't had the effect of getting the biden/harris campaign to shy away from talking about this issue and it's paying off

politically. let me show you their latest ad. >> why in this nation do black americans wake up knowing that they could lose their life in the course of just living their life? >> part of the point of freedom is to be free from brutality, from injustice, from racism, in all of its manifestations. >> we have to let people know that we not only understand their struggle, but they understand the fact they deserve to be treated withing anity. they've got to know we're listening. >> reforming policing in this country means creating a national standard on use of force and conditioning federal funds for police departments on adob sh adoption of that standard. we hold police officers accountable. >> donna edwards, you know, i think that message paired with joe biden's speech on monday about prosecuting anyone that

commits crimes on any side of the spectrum is likely to work. what do you think? >> well, i mean, i do. i think one of the things that we've seen with the biden/harris campaign and keep in mind, this is one of about three different ads that have been put out by the biden campaign that really speak directly to black america and i can't even remember a time when we've had that on a national level. and when i look at joe biden today and over the course of this week, he is personal and presidential in those same moments. and i think that you add to that, you know, him being able to connect with the pain of these families and you know that's who joe biden is. and so it's not a surprise to me that those poll numbers are what you say, because why would

america trust a lawless president to invoke law and order. they wouldn't, they shouldn't and they don't. and i think that today, joe biden really spoke to that pain that all of america is feeling and keep in mind, when these incidents happen, it's not like the old days when you just read about them in the paper, maybe. people can see for themselves. they don't need an interpreter to tell them what's wrong when someone holds a knee down for nearly nine minutes. they don't need an interpreter when seven bullet holes are in the back of a young man at the hands of police officers. and so, america is not waiting for somebody to interpret these things, but they are waiting for someone to speak to that pain and to offer leadership to guide us out of it and i think you heard that from joe biden today.

>> phil rucker, i want to just give you a quick last word on this question of incompetence. i mean, at the end of it, there is just this string of incompetence from donald trump, an income penitent approach to the pandemic, an incompetent approach to solving any problem s in racial justice and police reform. is there any talk there about making him look more competent? >> well, i think, nicolle, the gamble is a little different. it's a calculation that voters are not going to prioritize that in this election. they are going to care more about somebody who is fighting for them, who sounds tough, who is standing up to the elites, the establishment, the foreign powers and so forth. if this were an election about competence, who can run a government without chaos, who

can run a white house without dysfunction, who can get america to resolve this pandemic the way literally every other developed country has done, then it would be pretty easy to guess what the outcome of the election would be. but the reason trump's still in this race and the bet that his advisers are making is that voters are going to make their decisions based on more than just competence. >> it's a big gamble. most people want the country want the country run competent. phil rucker, thank you for starting us off. michael and donna are sticking around. when we come back, more from wisconsin, as joe biden continues to call out trump and his administration for racial injustices and for fanning the flames of violence. the reverend al sharpton on bidebid bid biden's message of healing. and the trump administration pushing for emergency powers to clear a coronavirus vaccine before the completion of clinical trials. in their view, in their hopes, in time for election day. those stories coming up. ♪

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newly released body camera footage of about incident between police and a black man in rochester, new york, back in march. the man, daniel prude, died days after being arrested when police put him on the ground and placed a hood over his head to stop him from spitting, after he said he had coronavirus. as prude grew agitated, the officers held him to the ground before he stopped breathing. protests broke out in rochester yesterday following the release of this video and an investigation by new york's attorney general is ongoing.

we've heard in the last few moments that the mayor of rochester has just suspended the officers involved, but it is another story of another black man dying in the hands of another police officer. the country's attorney general denies the existence, at all, of systemic racism. >> i do think that there appears to be a phenomenon in the country where african-americans feel that they're treated when they're stopped by police frequently as suspects before they're treated as citizens. i don't think that that necessarily reflects a deep-seeded racism in police departments or in most police officers. i think the same kind of behavior is done by african-american police officers. >> joining our conversation is the reverend al sharpton, the host of msnbc "politics nation"

and the president of the national action network. our friend donna edwards is still here. rev, what do you -- what are you hearing about -- we're going to get to bill barr, we're going to get to rochester, but i want to start with jacob blake's family, who you were with last weekend, who today was with joe biden. i know you weren't in the meeting today, but what do you imagine that exchange was like, knowing all the involved parties? >> i talked to attorney crum right after the meeting, who was part of the meeting by zoom and he said it was 90 minutes and it was very, very fruitful and healing for the family. the father was there, the mother was there via zoom, and he said to me, it was very similar to the meeting that i was in, you must remember that joe biden and dr. bill bijill biden, his wife to houston and met with george floyd's family the day before the funeral, and that was about

90 minutes. so, i witnessed first-hand his recent involvement to talking to two families, one who actually lost a brother and cousin, all of them that were in the room in terms of george floyd and now with the shooting of jacob. and he has a very healing kind of presence. he has a way of identifying, because he talks a lot about the grief he went through with losing his son and the loss of his wife early on in his life so, he identifies with the pain. and i do not understand how you can heal people without talking to the injured. the families are the ones injured. and i think that it shows a real sense of decency and compassion when he does that and the president doesn't. if you remember, nicolle, george

floyd's brother said he got a call from president trump, who talked two, three minutes, wouldn't let him talk and then hung up. i think we need someone that shows compassion. but also respects law. let's not forget that joe biden went and met with this family with his wife today, but the attorney general was suggesting that jacob jr., well, might have been in the middle of committing a crime and had a weapon. now, how is this family supposed to trust the justice department investigating the case when the attorney general is throwing out things that we do not know to be true or not true? but is saying nothing about the policeman that shot him in the back. it is interesting to me how we always hear about allegations against the victim and not against the one who did the shooting and in both cases, at

least in one case for shooting, the other it is a knee on the neck, the policeman, we don't know anything about the complaints an the background about the police. but for the attorney general to say this makes the whole world have to question how fair and impartial is this federal investigation going to be? >> you know, donna edwards, it also undermines the idea that there's any neutrality there. i mean, to -- most local police departments say, we're not going to say anything until we investigate. of late, they've been suspending any officers involved, as they did just when we came on the air today in rochester, new york, but again, bill barr as he did with the mueller report, as he did with the russia investigation, as he seems to do with an alarming number of investigations, has prejudged the outcome of the investigation into the shooting of jacob blake. >> well, i think many of us, you know, nicolle, long ago, lost

any hope that this attorney general was playing in a neutral spot on the playing field. no, he's always been the lawyer for donald trump and willing to prejudge an awful lot throughout this administration. and when i hear the attorney general say that some blacks have a feeling that they are treated differently, let me tell you, as the mother of a young black man, it's not a feeling, attorney general. it's a fact. it happens. and we can see that in the behavior that's been engaged in and that's been caught on camera and certainly what's happened with jacob blake jr. and so, you know, i hear an attorney general who decided that he's going to put his foot on the gas pedal when it comes to, you know, standing in the way of real justice and it's no

wonder that the american people don't trust him. >> well, you know, donna, just to follow up, i mean, i was thinking, when i saw that interview with wolf blitzer, that i hope he's at the beginning of a giant, lengthy, long, daily, all-day, all-night media tour, because when you see him, if suburban women are the problem that the trump campaign has diagnosed, bill barr is never, ever, ever going to be the answer. he looks out of step, he looks out of place, he looks out of it, period. he has either turned out to be less smart than all the people that are afraid of him or were impressed by him at the beginning thought, or more corrupt than even his greatest critics thought he were. that interview went on to contradict the odni and we're going to talk about this more in the next hour, but he not only denied the existence of systemic racism, as you said, talked about it as a feeling, i mean, 70% of americans share that

feeling. he also denied and contradicted the odni on russia's election meddling and being in a different category of china and iran, who simply have a preference for joe biden. over donald trump. he sort of went through a whole litany of things where he sounded almost exactly like donald trump did in that interview with laura ingram, where she had to stop him three times because he was so off the rails. >> right, and don't leave out his statements about mail-in balloting and mail-in voting. add that to the list. i mean, this attorney general, from the very beginning, he's not an attorney general, he is a political hack, masquerading in the office of the attorney general. let's be really clear about that. and every time, especially when he sits down in long form, he just reveals over and over and over again how much of a hack he really is. and that he's willing to do and say anything as though he is

operating on the personal behest of the president of the united states. and so, i don't want to confuse him anymore for a real attorney general. >> rev, i want to give you the last word on just this central contrast that joe biden has set up this week. every place that donald trump has tried to brand him and donald trump thinks he's this master brander, i think he actually trotted out jeb's nickname for joe biden this week, because the his preference to come up with a nickname, have been such an abysmal failure. biden's boxed trump out with sort of associating him with looters and people on the street making violence, he boxed him out on the school reopenings, which is on the mind of every parent, anyone with kids, and he now seems to be sort of boxing him out of any part of this conversation, not that a lot of people trust him, but even on police reform. you've got people across the

ideological speck strum who are open to the idea that change is really needed right now. >> and to have a real and fair discussion. and i think that's where biden has been effective, because by coming to the floyd family, coming today, they keep talking about he, joe biden, in the basement, well, i think a lot of americans are going to see, he came out of the basement to come and comfort a family whose son is laying in a hospital, injured, being shot in the back and we all saw the tape. and then goes and meets with the community. let's remember now, where donald trump went to kenosha, he met with law enforcement and one or two members of the community. mr. biden went right into the community, but at the same time, he went after making it clear, i'm not supporting, i'm not dealing with any of that. all donald trump tries to do is project those that are violent. he tries to act like black lives

matter and antifa is the same thing. black lives matter is not terrorists, they're not -- they've been infiltrated by some that have done things, they don't advocate that and many of us are going to stand up and fight this. you notice, nicolle, we had this big march on saturday, tens of thousands of people, not one arrest, no violence, all of the families there, you didn't hear one tweet from the president. never mentioned it. because he cannot afford to deal with it when he can't make us look like hoodlums and thugs. how do you have a mash march of that size, less than a mile from where he was at and he never tweets one thing about it. because he wants to project us as violent and out of control when we're not that and that's what joe biden showed today by going to a family and going to a church, talking to people. that's who we are. donald trump wants to make us some of the fringes that

infiltrate or take advantage of who we really are. >> the rev al sharpton, donna edwards, thank you so much for spending some time with us on this important day and these important topics. after the break, the latest indication that trump could be putting his political health ahead of ours. as the cdc tells states to be ready for a vaccine two days before the election?

so, this week, just another sign of the trump administration's race for a covid-19 vaccine might have more to do with votes than the vaccine. the government's own cdc telling states to prefair for large scale vaccine distribution by november 1st. that is two days before the presidential election. in a letter late last week, cdc director robert redfield told governors to expect an effort potentially involving hundreds of millions of vaccine doses to be distributed by the u.s. and requested they expepme diet -- going to bring in my expert, dr. redlynner. i think in normal times, this would be such cause for celebration, but there is such deep skepticism about where the science has been placed in every conversation and every juncture of the pandemic. what do you make of the alert to

be ready two days before the election for vaccine distribution? >> well, you know, nicolle, it's so blatantly political and we have a president who is so mistrusted, he's been so dishonest with everything, there's no way to discern whether he's actually talking about a breakthrough that would be effective and safe or it's completely politically motivated. this is not a -- this is not normal times, it's not a normal president by any stretch and we have no way of determining what the motivation is here. the fact that this is going to be pushed for coming out before the election presents some real challenges. we have no idea if the vaccine, which will not have been fully tested, will be safe for people. and to push this out couple days before the election is absurd and reckless, in my opinion, and this is all about politics, nicolle, and a president who is unhinged and reckless in his

behaviors, starting at the beginning of the pan deck you can and even before that and here's what we have now. a challenge that we can't understand exactly. >> so, nick, your newspaper quotes an epidemiologist who makes the same point irwin is saying. let me read his quote from your paper today. he said, the timeline is deeply worrisome for the politicization of public health and the potential safety ramifications. it's hard not to see this as a push for a pre-election vaccine. >> well, the importance thing, nicolle, is that, i think, that every american would like to see a vaccine in november, but the problem is, what we have seen repeatedly throughout this epidemic is that when the white house takes the lead on science and medical questions, it off falls short of its promises. i talking about the miracle cure of hydroxychloroquine, drive-thru testing at walmart and target.

these all failed. i think we have to wait and see. but i will just say this. i think that this is a classic case where good policy is good politics and vice versa. the president can deliver and if these drug makers can deliver a working vaccine by november, that is great news for america and it might be good news for the president. but if this is just another headline grab for a short-term bump, it's going to be a catastrophe for the president who can't afford anymore of those in this election cycle. >> let me just push back, nick, but it would represent a groundbreaking moment. it would be the first time in the six months since the pandemic has started coursing through this country that he put science first, if that's the case. he did not put science first in the shutdown orders. he did not put science first in the reopenings. and even when the shutdown orders were in place, donald trump was tweeting like a reckless 12-year-old on detention.

liberate virginia, liberate michigan, when it was his own cdc that put in place the guidelines the governors were adhering to. he's been pushing hydroxychloroquine. if the vaccine stuff is on the up and up, that in and of itself would be a break-through for this president. >> well, look, i would say that there's actually a terrible irony here, which is that the president is not believed by most americans when he makes these promises. he has squandered a lot of his credibility over the last six months by making these promises and not delivering. it would be a terrible irony and tragedy for the country if, for some reason, this materialized and it worked out, but there is so much mistrust in the president and distrust in the process, that people, you know, across the country are kind of reluctant to take advantage of what could be a breakthrough. we just don't know and we have seen before that the white house can talk a big game on this and not deliver. >> and dr. redlener, it would

appear that a lot of the damage has already been done. here's the nbc news ve/survey monkey poll. would you get a government-approved covid-19 vaccine in only 44% says yes. 32%, not sure, 22% say no. even if we had it, it's not clear that everyone trusts the government anymore and plans to take it. >> yeah, nicolle, and by the way, if, in fact, people do take it, and then we have a lot of complications erupting in the weeks, months and maybe a year after they're getting the vaccine, what will then happen to the public trust about the vaccine? and we won't know the answer to those questions until after the election. but the bottom line point, from evidence and science point of view, nicolle, is that we will not know by november 3rd whether we have a safe and effective vaccine, period. this is going to be a brutal experiment to give people vaccines before they've gone

through the full human trials period that they need to go through. we won't have a way of knowing by november 1st or even the first quarter of 2021, if the vaccine works and if it's safe for people. >> let me ask you one last question. tony fauci has been asked about a vaccine literally every time he's been on capitol hill. did it slip his mind that there was one that was going to be ready on november 1st? why didn't we hear about that from him? >> well, i don't know, i mean, tony fauci is one of the couple of people that we can actually trust and, you know, i think he's assessing this and we can pretty much believe what he says, in my opinion. still, whatever he says, there's no way of assuring that we will have an effective vaccine that's safe by november 3rd. that's basically preposterous. we might want to take a chance if the pandemic is raging, but we have a lot to worry about if we end up with a vaccine that

actually is not what we're looking for. >> dr. irwin redlener, great to ask you these questions. thank you for staying with us. nick is staying put. after the break, facebook is planning to clamp down on misinformation and remove posts that try to discourage voting. i wonder if a week is long enough? the trump campaign fired back momenting after the announcement. we'll bring you that back and forth next. u that back d an forth next

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facebook today made a rather extraordinary announcement for facebook, announcing in the seven days leading up to the presidential election they will not accept political ads from politicians or campaigns. my question to you, nick, is how did they arrive at this step, and two, how is this not a tacit admission that they are a platform for disinformation and lies? >> nikoan nicolle, this follows of criticism in recent months and recent years for how politicians have abused the platform. really it's a gigantic punt. they're saying we can't figure out a way to fact-check people and we don't want to make the judgments about who is actually breaking our rules. so we're going to ban everybody a week after the election,

including joe biden. it keeps them from making hard choices and getting in political water because we all know donald trump is different on that platform than joe biden and is different than most politicians. >> i guess i don't understand, what are they greenlighting leading up to those seven days? is it them acknowledging we realize this is a pigpen and we want to shut out the pigpen seven days out? i don't understand what they're acknowledging by saying here's how bad it is. we, facebook, think it is so bad, we will not host it the last seven days. >> they could be saying we're trying to shut down misleading information about the actual conduct of elections, how to vote and where to vote. you're right, it does make the point if this stuff is so toxic and bad and misleading and dangerous that it has to be shut down a week out, how come you're having any of these ads at all and why isn't there a better system in place at facebook's

expense to police political ads and prevent harmful disinformation? the answer is they haven't had one yet and have had a lot of trouble coming up with one. >> let me just pull that thread yet again, because the truth is people are voting now. they want to shut it down before people do -- what is the behavior they want to protect? if it's voting, voting is happening right now. >> that's a good point, nicolle. i can't see inside their heads here, and people have criticized this already as a band-aid. there's already a lot of information on the site. i will just say one thingme. perhaps this ends up benefiting donald trump even though it's meant to constrain him. that's because facebook is dominated by right wing news, not left wing news. the big publishers, aside from candidate, the big publishers are mostly like ben shapiro.

they dominate the platform. if you keep politicians off and leave it to different kinds of media, mainstream and otherwise, you'll end up with a facebook dominated by conservative voices. >> i know this is your beat, and you'll understand it better than i ever will, but someday you have to sit down and explain to me how they built this frankenstein and leave it up and running in one of the most volatile tinderbox moments in american history. it's astounding. we'll have you back to do just that. nick conesori, thank you, my friend. up next, at the white house. up next, at the white house.

for the sake of all americans, we must uphold the rule of law and defend the american dream. >> they want to see law and order. that's the change they want. they want law and order. >> some people think those are two terrible words, law and order. they're not terrible at all. they're beautiful and they have to be used jrudiciously, they have to be used properly. >> we need order. we need order. >> i am your president of law and order. >> we need both those things, you're just not the guy. hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. donald trump's words about law and order increasingly have zero relation to his actions. in 24 hours his extrajudicial conduct includes, but may not be limited to, calling on voters in north carolina to commit felony voter fraud by voting twice. >> they'll vote and they're going to have to check their

vote by going to the poll and voting that way, because if it tabulat tabulates, they won't be able to do that. let them send it in and let them go vote, and if their system is as good as they say it is, then obviously they won't be able to vote. if it isn't tabulated, they'll be able to vote. that's the way it is and that's what they should do. >> that's not all. he's also cutting all federal funding from u.s. cities he doesn't like, mostly because they're run by democratic officials. before we chase these shiny objects to their logical end, mainly that voting twice is illegal and that trump is now publicly trying to involve his supporters in his attempts to steal the 2020 election, and the fact that cutting federal funds from cities he targets for political revenge is quite possibly unconstitutional. just a quick viewers' guide to the political reality from our friends at the "new york times." quote, with polls showing him trailing his democratic rival,

former vice president joseph r. biden, jmp, mr. trump has tried to visit attention away from the coronavirus pandemic and what he depicts as out of control crime in new york city and other cities. joe b donald trump's campaign getting an assist from bill barr, who thinks he's helping these days. >> he thinks he's making the point that his ability to monitor the system is so good that if you voted a second time, you would be caught. >> that would be illegal if somebody mailed in a ballot and then actually showed up to vote in person, that would be illegal. >> i don't know what the law in the particular states say. >> you can't vote twice. >> i don't know what the law in the particular state says and when that vote becomes final. >> here's where we are, wolf blil blitzer telling the country's attorney general what's illegal. so even if someone tries to heed

trump's advice, it might not be nearly as ed ifying as they hop and it might not prove what trump is trying to prove. even though he was telling people to verify their absentee votes were counted, that doesn't make sense. at this point people involved in these processes might wrongly believe their absentee vote is lost forever and might think it allows them to vote in person, and ultimately the vote might truly be on them. the president's power grab of sinking polls and rising death toll in the u.s. due to the coronavirus is where we start today. the white house reporter who we've already quoted since we've been on the air and ashley parker is back. also, democratic strategist bazos michael and my friend steve schmidt sheer. steve schmidt, i thought of you when i wrote this at the beginning, that we're now at the point where what he says is almost the opposite of what he's

doing. and it represents a new degree of, you know, fill in your adjecti adjective. audacity, hutzpah, delusion, whatever it is. what do you make of the remedy of this more audacious law coming from trump about law and order? >> well, it is dishonest at a profound level, nicolle. it's a lie we're seeing donald trump project from a point of weakness, trying to convince people of this alternate reality that there's very little resemblance to actual reality. where the country is cruising towards 200,000 dead from coronavirus, a shattered economy, escalating foreclosures a and eviction crisis. but it's important to note that trump is no longer a haphazard and accidental set of patholo

pathologies that have come together that define, because it's hard to explain this moment in american life and american politics. you take idealogy now and it's taken root. it's important to understand what it is so we can do something about it. and what it is is an illiberal, autocratic idealogy that about 30% of the country, roughly, are enamored with. they are full in 100% committed to the cultive personality that is at the core of trumpism, cultive personality built around donald trump. when you look at the convention, what you saw was breathtaking lying, utter lawlessness and the seizure of symbols in the american republic to become partisan totems for donald trump's tribe to make them

symbols of authority over the rest of the country. so, in essence, what trump is saying is i am the truth, i am the law, i am the state. and we're required to oppose this as americans because that idealogy is fundamentally unamerican. it's not what the country is about. it's contrary to the american idea and ideal, contrary to the concepts of democracy and the great progress the country has made over the last 50 years. so it has to be opposed. it has to be confronted. that idealogy -- >> can i ask you a question, steve? can i jump in? >> uh-huh. >> let me jump in and ask you about defeating the idealogy. is the idealogy weakened by removing the levers of the state? because i think what you're saying is absolutely right, and that's why the barr comments are so remarkable. he's now pulling the levers for the idealogy of trumpism, and i think that even his most ardent

partisan detractors thought he would come in and pull the levers for the state. he's coming and pulling the levers that you're describing. let me ask you about mr. barr and whether taking away the levers of the state on its own sort of takes care of the ecosystem. >> you said you are worried that foreign countries could send thousands of fake ballots to people and it might be impossible to detect. what are you basing that on? >> as i've said repeatedly, i'm basing that on logic. >> pardon? >> logic. >> but have you seen any evidence that a foreign country is trying to interfere in that way -- >> if we use a ballot system that states are just now trying to adopt, it does leave open the possibility of counterfeiting, counterfeiting ballots, either

by someone here or -- >> do you think a foreign country could do that? >> i think anyone could do that. >> have you seen any evidence they're being counterfeited? >> let me put the question this way. that is the country's most senior law enforcement official trotting out b.s. about counterfeit ballots. there is nothing that has been briefed to any of the intelligence committees, there's been nothing that's declassified, there's been no bulletin sent to law enforcement, be on the lookout for counterfeit ballots. what does exist is a bulletin that was buried that we learned from nbc news this week that said watch out for alignments with russia to denigrate the candidat candidates. we also have disseminated a

russian interference, that they are looking to knock down biden. the things that are actually happening are contradicted or pushed aside or ignored. >> barr is like the interior minister from positiland in the early 1980s. he does not represent any attorney general that has come before him. he is an accomplice in donald trump's lawlessness and you saw him spin his way through to try to delegitimize the election and cause chaos examiand confusion. and remember, at the heart of lying and dishonesty is conspiracy, and the republican

party is now festooned with conspiracy theorists. these movements all around the world, they team with menace and violence. no mistake that the hawaiian sure-clad fetishists want to see a second world war in this country. they are all supporting trump and trump has encouraged all of them. so what we're seeing is this moment that demands confrontation, and that burden falls, heavily in this country, on joe biden who must confront this every single day. he must defend the lawlessness of it, the decency of it, and he must constantly remind the country that we're about to lose our 200,000th american to covid-19 and none of it had to happen. as he falls further and further behind in the polls, he'll attempt to delegitimize the

election, the lines will be more severe, we'll see more use of foreign powers misinformation campaigns. they'll do anything to hold onto power, including inciting chaos and violence across the country, which is precisely what he's doing with deadly consequences, i might add, when you see the 17-year-old who is radicalized by trumpism, took his ar-15 to kenosha and became a killer. >> actually, parker, it is undeniable that donald trump broke the law yesterday. let me read you north carolina's statute on voter fraud. it says this. it shall be unlawful for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register to vote at more than one precinct and more than one time or to induce another to do so in the same primary election or to vote illegally at any primary or election. so bill barr's fantasy counterfeit ballots from foreign governments not a thing, but donald trump inviting people to

commit voter fraud in the state of north carolina definitely a thing. >> yeah, and that's why you saw the white house pretty clearly, if somewhat i mplausibly, tryin to walk that back today. the president himself sent some tweets out about it, sort of trying to clarify that it is really making sure that somehow if your mail-in ballot has not been counted, you should show up to vote, in theory, which would be the first time. but that's not really the ten oregon words that he wanted to express. i thought, this is the original intention. this just wreaks of a confusion in the ether about voting. this is what the president is

doing, and it creates a scenario that whoever wins, whatever the results of the election are, if you're president trump and you don't like the results, you are going to point to all of this uncertainty and unclarity that you yourself have sowed to try to claim that the results are inval invalid. it is lame, and experts i talked to yesterday say it's, frankly, quite dangerous. >> bazel, one way to look at the polls, which they're actually more sinister and a grave danger to our democracy, but the quinnipiac poll has joe biden up by 10%. steve kornacki says you don't really even need to get in to start counting state to state, until that lead is sometimes it

ten points. i invite that the best case of trumpism that could have been produced is not a good sign for voters accepting more of this. >> it's certainly not a good sign, but the concern that i have is that trump doesn't care about v law, he cares about his law, and he cares about reordered our political institutions and our political processes to suit our own interest. the polls may be telling us one thing, but how this plt materialize is their own interest or that of supporters we may not feel until election

day. that the tactics this president is going to be using. i try to talk to my students about and educate them about the political process, but then having to do that and balance that with the president's own statements is something that is becoming increasingly difficult, but we have to do it. i'll just add this quick point. i talk to so many of my friends, many of them not in politics. they've been solemn about the business pall that's over this country at the moment. they feel even though they've been told what they can do to push for change, which is actually exercise their vote, it may be called into question and may be delegitimized. something the president is tempted to do by putting people

around danger sites. that sort of -- i have proof of the counterfeit iing. people get signed into sign ing because there are people that get preyed on. i don't fear it's going to come from russia, i fear it's coming from the president and his supporters. >> back to that point, this white house doesn't seem to have sort of pulled it all in. this week they've been pulled off track. the president tweeting that he didn't have many strokes which wasn't the contention in the book he was responding to. the president just so easily pulled off sides, tweeting about the nba.

is there a secret effort that's coordinated that we don't see? >> what you see is what you get at this white house. people say, what is the president really thinking, what's happening inside? often it's what he's tweeting, it's what he's saying at rallies, it's what he's saying publicly. i will say factoring into the senior team of strategists is, you know, this is the message, this is the goal, this is where we want to keep the focus, but they often use the phrase, it is what it is, knowing the president may take a law and order message too far, for instance, or that the president may be supposed to focus on law and order and he'll be tweeting about mini strokes and sing

singlehandedly make it the new news cycle. >> is anyone in the white house mad at kellyanne conway for giving away the secret that the chaos is to their political benefit, and therefore, they're not upset by it at all when people get hurt? >> kellyanne conway said the quiet part out loud. it's something the president does as well. but it's also something that polling around and talking to people in the president's orbit trying to find out what is their message amid the racial protest that you hear from them publicly and quietly. i think it makes them harder to claim plausibility, and kellyanne conway was frankly not sharing anything particularly

r revelatory. >> still shocking and horrifying. ashley parker, thank you for being with us. bazel and steve staying with us. attorney general william barr saying china, not russia, is a bigger threat to the 2020 election. plus, house democrats demanding answers why an intelligence briefing meant to flag law enforcement on how russia was spreading misinformation about joe biden was put on ice by the trump administration. and jon meacham will join us on the shredding of presidential dec decorum we've seen just in the last couple days. m we've seen je last couple days

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of those three countries that the intelligence community has pointed to, russia, china and iran, which is the most assertive and aggressive in this area? >> i believe it's china. >> which one? >> china. >> china more than russia right now? >> yes. >> why do you see that? >> i've seen the intelligence. that's what i've concluded. >> what are they trying to do? >> i'm not going to discuss this. >> they're trying to help who win? >> i'm not getting into that. >> more aggressive than russia? >> yes. >> so the evaluation of ag barr doesn't line up from what his office found. quote, we assess that china prefers that president trump, whom beijing sees as unpredictab unpredictable, does not win re-election. we assess that russia is use ag

range of measures to primarily denigrate former vice president biden and what it sees as an anti-russia establishment. just this week, twitter and facebook sounded the alarm over this. quote, the russian group that interfered in the 2016 presidential election is at it again, using a network of fake accounts and a website set up to look like a news site. also nbc national contributor and the author of donald trump versus the united states, michael schmidt.

bill barr trying to undo the russia investigation and leave the country as it is now, i guess, with an attorney general who says china is our greatest threat. what do you make of that interview? >> well, bill barr is something that donald trump has been looking for his entire time, since he was president. he's been looking for someone who would be loyal to him and who he could trust to run the justice department, the roadway kohn that he was looking for. look, we do not know whether there was some sort of loyalty oath that bill barr had to give the president. we don't know that. but what we do know is that john kelly said no to a loyalty oath from trump right after trump fired comey because kelly did not want to commit to that. we know that trump got rid of comey because he didn't think he was loyal to him, and we know from trump's public statements

about attorney general jeff sessions that his decision to recuse himself from the russia investigation was incredibly disloyal and was the ultimate betrayal for the president. so when we're trying to assess what barr is saying, we have to start at that point. that's just a thing we cannot ignore about barr and certainly his posture as attorney general has been a dream for the president. >> bazel, to mike's point, everybody else who had that job their loyalty was explicitly tested and they were thrown out for not displaying sufficient loyalty. i guess the stunning thing about bill barr is it's also in your face, someone more intelligent or more elegant or more committed to the country would be a little bit more subdued about it, i guess.

what is the point other than atta boys or hugs from donald trump to be so obnoxious about it? it is flagrantly false that china is active in terms of meddling in the 2020 election. what does he gain by saying that snz bill barr is not going to be invited to any of my friends' high school career days, no doubt about it. it's just lies and misdirection. i don't understand it, but i have to think that it's pretty seductive, and i have to say that because it may be a certain brassiness about his character that the president loves to see and that i think his supporters want coming out of the white house. it's that sort of in your face that you're not going to nuance me to death, i'm going to tell you exactly what i think and how i feel. you either take it or leave it.

unfortunately, that doesn't work well for running a country, or at least this country, but it's something that i think the attorney general feels if he wants any staying power in this white house, that's exactly what he has to do. he has to curry favor with the president in that way that unfortunately runs absolutely contrary to the job that he's supposed to be doing for the american people. >> michael, what do you hear about loyalty at the police department? >> that's a range of things. as trump has tried to use the justice department in ways to try to prosecute his rivals, they're far different from any previous president. it got so bad, as i lay out in the book, that the white house counsel had to tell the president, if you appear to be

meddling in the justice department's work that he could be impeached, he could face mass resignations at the justice department, cases could be thrown out of court, and ultimately he could lose at the ballot box because of this. now, he was told this in spring of 2018. up until that point, he had done a lot of meddling in the justice department, and since then has done a lot more. i'm not sure how healthy that advice or ability to contain the president was, but this is clearly something that people around the president have recognized and have been deeply concerned about. >> steve schmidt, you worked real closely with this sort of slice of the senior white house staff when you worked on the confirmations of justice roberts and justice alito. i worked with harriet meyers back in the day. but this group of conservatively

smart lawyers is repelled by stupidity. i don't know how else to put it. what would you imagine that kind of conservative legal person thinks watching bill barr either willfully sound stupid or willfully sound like a sychophant for the president? >> if they have fidelity to the american experiment, to the american idea, to our ideals, to the rule of law, they are deeply, deeply worried about it. when they hear the officers of the country, the attorney general constantly lying, constantly asserting powers that are extrajudicial and extraconstitutional. and i think that anybody has fidelity to the constitution of the united states looks at the attorney general and is very deeply worried, worried about the constancy of the abuse of

president trump's henchmen about the law and the abuse of law. >> thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, the white house wants answers why the white house security buried a bullet about the russian plot to spread misinformation about joe biden's health. we'll be back after a quick break. health we'll be back after a quick break. this is decision tech. find a stock based on your interests or what's trending.

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congressman adam schiff says the house committee will investigate that big story we started the hour with yesterday, that the department of homeland security decided not to publish the july 9 document warning about a russian plot to interfere in the 2020 election by denigrating joe biden specifical specifically, making up lies about his mental health. from the "new york times," the intelligence bulletin entitled, russia likely to denigrate health of u.s. candidates to influence american election, that news station medias were outlining points about the democrat's health, joe biden. before the bulletin was distributed, homeland security officials intervened to halt publication, department officials confirmed. during our conversation, congressman jim hines, democrat,

and congressman amy stodder. amy, i guess we're never surprised anymore, but it is staggering the sort of depth of how much of the intelligence product's distribution has been krup corrupted and halted because of donald trump with the same messages being spread by the russians. what do we do? >> well, you're absolutely right, nicolle, and what i think we have to do here is connect the dots, right? one report that suggests the russians are promoting this theory that joe biden -- that's ridiculous, that joe biden has issues being spiked, that's a scandal in and of itself. but connect the dots. this is happening at exactly the same time that the attorney general, as you just ran the story about, is telling the

american public something completely inconsistent with what the congress of the united states has been briefed, inconsistent with what bill evanina's memo said about interfering, and it comes at a time when former republican congressman john radcliffe said, i'm not briefing congress anymore. layer on top of that -- because there's two things happening. one is the corruption of the senior levels of the federal government in the service of what donald trump asked jim comey for, which is loyalty. the other thing that's going on is just this bizarre attempt to defend russia. what's the other dot that needs to be connected? the fact that every nato leader on the planet has condemned what appears to be the russian poisoning of alexei navalny using a chemical weapon except for one leader. and that leader, of course, is donald trump, who is still looking into it. you can't make this stuff up. >> you know, my question for you is this. do we cover these stories as

another shocking abdication of u.s. leadership, or should we put a frame on it -- i think john bolton in his book tried to warn people that if left to his devices and if elected for a second term, he will remove the united states from nato. should we move to where he is? he doesn't view russia as having done anything wrong by placing bounties on the heads of american soldiers, he doesn't view russia as having done anything wrong by poisoning with nerve gas, a dissonant and enemy of vladimir putin. in fact, he's spreading and doing the very same things. do we need to push the frame for seeing the reality of what it is, which is trying to advance russia's policy ahead of ours? >> two things to say about that. number one, of course.

the president has chosen to defend russia. he took putin's word for it that putin didn't interfere with the 2016 election, even though the intelligence community of the united states, which we spend 80 billion dollars a year on. this is very interesting, nicolle. here we all are in a tizzy over outrageousness. bill barr openly, in my view, mischaracterizing what's happening out there. the president doing outrageous things. you know what we're not doing? we're not talking about the fact that we're approaching 200,000 dead americans as a result of the president's mismanagement of covid. america knows the president is a liar. he's been that for three and a half years, so yet another day of lies is not news. but gosh, now we're all confused about, is china doing this, and we are not talking about the fact that we've lost more

americans than we ever have since the war in korea. >> then let's end there. the white house, which now has a six-month-long record of ignoring science, of trying to shape the numbers by slowing tests, and donald trump is such a blabbermouth that so many of these things came from his twitter feed or his own mouth is now promising a vaccine for two days before election day, which is something on all the predictions on capitol hill that tony fauci made, he never said there would be a vaccine by election day. he never suggested that it would be remotely possible by the beginning of november of this year. what do we make of the constant stream of disinformation about a pandemic that's already taken close to 200,000 of our fellow americans? >> well, again, this is hardly news, right? you'll recall back in march when

there were 15 cases and they were going to go away. then there was going to be a miracle. then the summer would come and it would go away. then we were promised vaccines. look, anybody who knows anything about vaccines, and those people are increasingly no longer part of the president's team, will tell you that the process of proving a vaccine safe, which is really important to people, right? this is actually putting a foreign substance in the body of healthy people, takes a long time to test. then, by the way, to make 333 million doses? that is a very lengthy manufacturing process. we know what is happening here. the president is hoping he can announce something good in october and it helps his political fortunes. that's what's happening here. >> it could not get any more cynical. congressm congressman himes, thank you for your insight. >> thank you, nicolle.

>> a.b., i want to get you in on the dots the congressman talked about. it's more alarming than it was four years ago, donald trump failing to account for the bounties. as the congressman said, the odi is as trumpian as you could get. his office said while china and iran have a preference for joe biden, the only country interfering with the election is russia. the a.g. out there either denying that reality or saying he doesn't believe it. this constant stream of disinformation coming from russia is the same that comes from donald trump. what do we do? >> that's what's so frustrating, and congressman himes made the right point, which is you have to connect the dots, a warning

from the officials at odni that said point blank the russians are trying to denigrate the candidacy of joe biden as they did to the candidacy of hillary clinton in 2016 for donald trump in his reelection. then in 72 hours, we find out that the director of national intelligence, john radcliffe, who is, as you pointed out, trump's point person, in an attempt to sort of muz zel that news tells them members of congress will no longer brief you in person. so mr. himes doesn't get to as questions, doesn't get to tell you what they may be omitting, and then we learn that the department of security is trying to intercept warnings about this very thing. there are reports out today where we see that putin and trump are literally sharing the

script. it's not only that joe is sleepy and his mental faculties render him unfit for the office, but that you shouldn't trust mail-in balloting as well. so this campaign is now extending to that. i just really think the american public needs to pay a lot more attention that takes nour more years, let alone the next four years which you said the president will pull us out of nato f.ly, so we can ask her, everything. syria, ukraine, afghanistan, it's a very long list. with the fact there are several recent military provocations in addition to the poisoning of the

dissident by the russians that have gone unresponded to by president trump, let alone the bounty story which is an absolute staggering betrayal of our men and women in uniform. you put the pieces together and it's just tragic that americans don't care more about what's going on. >> i i hahave hope that they wi when they hear it. a.b. is staying with us when we return. there is nothing normal about an american president who is encouraging his supporters to commit crimes on his behalf, or when he wants to cut funding in cities for mayors he doesn't like. or when he defends things coming straight from the kremlin, as you see there. we'll go through it all after a quick break. there. we'll go through it all after a quick break.

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i will faithfully execute -- >> the office of the president of the united states. >> the office of the president of the united states. >> and will to the best of my ability. >> and will to the best of my ability. >> preserve, protect and defend. >> preserve, protect and defend. >> the constitution of the united states. >> the constitution of the united states. >> it wasn't the last lie he told but it might have been the first. donald trump is now urging people to vote twice in the upcoming election. that's a felony.

he's directing federal officials to figure out how to cut funding to cities run by democrats. he stays silent as russia, again, is interfering to help him get been sprinkled through the three and a half year of president of the united states. they all happen yesterday. joining our conversation, jon meacham, the host of the new podcast. he is also the author of his truth is marching on. jon lewis and the power of hope which is officially a "new york times" best seller. it will debut as number one. i am so happy for you, my friend. amy stoddard is still with us. i want to start there. i said you would make me feel better, not because these are things anyone could or should be

soothed about. tell me where you see the arc of history in 60 days. is it possible this country has been so polluted with disinformation that they buy what he's selling again? >> it is certainly possible. that's why the task before us is an urgent task of citizenship to fight a tsunami of distrust and chaos. he's counting on chaos. and not the kind of constitutional continuity and citizenship that has shaped us for so long. so we know what's coming, right? he's playing his cards as openly as possible. he's trying to pre delegitimize the election. he's trying to undercut the sanctity of what john lewis and alice paul and so many people fought and bled and died for.

which is the ultimate form of nonviolent protest, the vote. 100 years, women received the vote this year. it has only been 50 years or so for black folks in my native region. so what we have to do is be on a kind of citizen alert to fight back against a man who is simply about the amassing of power as opposed to the advancing of american principle. >> has anyone in the history of this country ever won with reckless disregard for the health of their citizenry? and i ask that because i read everything i can find about the coronavirus pandemic. i try to understand the threat to american national security with all these moves. that went up almost perfectly with vladimir putin. and line up almost perfectly against ours.

has anyone ever won with such public and flag ran disregard for security abroad or security at home for america in. >> no. and quite the opposite. and that's one source of light in this season of darkness, which is that woodrow wilson during the pandemic did not face re-election again. the depression was kind of a slow rolling thing. 31, 32. franklin roosevelt was not a shoe-in in 1932 to defeat herbert hoover. so history would tell us that american elections, even when they're blowouts, are blowouts within a certain set of sign posts. remember, our biggest elections in reason history has been in 1964, 1972. and 1984. but even there, that was 60-40, right? so 40% of the country is set.

they're not moving. the question is, can the people who for instance, voted for obama and then voted for trump and there are those folks out there who are just looking for change of any kind. has the overtly deleterious effect that donald trump has had on their health, on their jobs, and on the standing of this country and the world. is that enough for them to understand that it was the wrong kind of change? >> a.p., you write, it's 2020. the year of the unthinkable. much more can happen and it will. what do you know that we don't know? >> i actually think all these, i'm not a fan of national polls. i think everything we saw in polling yesterday shows that the structure of the race remains, which is after a pretty shrewd convention, the president's surrogates were not able to make

the case to bring back what is needed with this coalition. it's going to be interesting to see what's left in the race. it went out the window in 2016 for hillary clinton would wind up every traditional structure that would you need. more fund-raisers, more battle ground offices, more dollars, more everything, and she still lost. so i don't know in the next 60 days what will turn the race and that's why i think in 2020, we should expect to not know until it is all over. >> it does my nerves no good but i'm sure you are correct. jon meacham, congratulations on the success of a beautiful book. amy stoddard, thank you for spending some time with us. when we return, remembering lives well lived. return, rememb lives well lived

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this is for all the baseball lovers in my life. especially my own little boy. his hall of fame plaque in cooperstown starts off like this. franchise power pitcher who transformed the mets from lovable losers into formidable foes. that would be the legendsary tom seaver. you can call him tom terrific or the franchise. the mets were hapless. the laughing stock of the league. in his first three seasons they transformed into the world champions miracle mets. in his personal accomplishments, there are so many. his baseball card could be the length of a grocery store receipt. in 1967, national league rookie of the year, three cy youngs, 12

all-star games, and he is the only player in major league baseball history to strike out ten batters in a row. tom seaver died peacefully in his sleep on monday from complications of dementia and the coronavirus at the age of 75. as always, all of our thoughts and all of our prayers to go his loved ones, his wife nancy, his two daughters, his four grandsons, all the mets fans who loved him and all the lovers of baseball will miss him. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're so grateful for that. "the beat" with my friend and colleague ari melber begins now. >> i have a quick question for you. you know many things including elections. it's vote once, not twice, right? >> oh, what's so amazing is unlike you, i am not a lawyer. but when i can google that something is against the law and i can finds the law and then i

can even google whether the law that