say, but in the case of many of our veterans, when mr. trump says that he prefers to be with people who were not captured, well, the great honor of my life was to serve in the company of heroes. i'm not a hero, but those who were my senior ranking officers, people like colonel bud day, congressional medal of honor winner, those that inspired us to do things we wouldn't otherwise have been capable of doing, i think those are the people he owes an apology to. >> there are so many people who miss the great john mccain. >> late senator john mccain on "morning joe" back in 2015 reacting there for the first time to donald trump disparaging his military service. this morning new reporting from jeffrey goldberg in the atlantic magazine has more details on the president's fixation with mccain and a whole lot more.

good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is friday, september 4th, along with joe and me, we have washington anchor, katty kay, white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analysis eugene robinson. and editor in chief of the atlantic magazine, jeffrey goldberg, the author of that new piece on president trump disparage america's war dead. in a moment we'll get to joe biden's visit to kenosha, wisconsin yesterday it was in stark contrast with the president's visit earlier in the week with joe biden calling for an end to systemic racism and an end to the violence. also, joe biden met with jacob

blake's family for 90 minutes. but we begin with jeffrey's new reporting on president trump using words like losers and suckers, repeatedly disparaging members, and asking disabled military veterans to be left out of parades. when trump cancelled a visit to the cemetery in paris in 2018 he blamed rain for the last-minute decision, the claim wasn't true. trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would be dissell fed in the rain and he didn't find it important to honor the war dead. in conversation with staff members, trump said, why should i go to that cemetery, it's filled with losers.

in a separate conversation on the same trip, trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives as suckers for getting killed. >> jeffrey, let's start. there are many more excerpts we're going to read from -- >> they're staggering. >> -- your incredible reporting. first, let's talk about the genesis of this article. when did you begin reporting on this? and how did it come together? >> well, like a lot of reporters, we -- you hear things all the time. and i've probably been gathering string, as they say, on this for some time. but it just came together recently. i've been interested since 2015, actually, as i think you've been, in the president's attitude toward military service, because like a lot of

people, i thought when he disparaged john mccain in 2015, i thought wrongly that would be the end of his campaign, donald trump's campaign, because the one previous rule in american politics is you don't mock war heroes. and so i just found his -- i just found his general attitude toward service very novel. and so i've been listening for several years to people talk about -- >> we said yesterday, jeffrey, we showed a military times poll that showed that for the first time in some time, even though only 16% of active duty military were democratic, that a plurality supported joe biden over donald trump. there has been this great

friction between military leaders and the president for some time. you've certainly noted it in your conversations in the past and your interviewed in the past with former defense secretary james mattis. obviously we have heard john kelly at times also express those concerns, as well as admiral mullens and so many other military leaders. you get the sense, for anybody that's ever worked in the pentagon or with the pentagon or around the pentagon, stories like these do not contain themselves inside one office or one wing of that pentagon. it now is understood throughout the culture, right? >> right. i would say that -- i would say that there's general sort of shock and disbelief that someone -- >> it's not even that the person would articulatie views that wa.

i think there's genuine curiosity why a person would think that way or how a person comes to those thoughts. it's so irregular in a country that values veterans, that values service generally, military service in particular. so there's just a general kind of confusion, even more than anger. disbelief, i would say, in a lot of circles. you've heard people in those same circles talk about it. and it was just -- it was just a task to try to -- try to bring this down to concrete details. >> jeffrey also reports on president trump's 2017 memorial day visit to arlington national cemetery, during which he was accompanied by then secretary of homeland security john kelly.

trump was meant on this visit to join john kelly in paying respects at his son's grave and to comfort the families of other fallen service members but according to sources with knowledge of this visit, trump while standing by robert kelly's grave turned directly to his father and said, i don't get it, what was in it for them? kelly, who declined to comment for the story initially believed people close to him said that trump was making a ham handed reference to the all volunteer american source. but he later came to realize that trump doesn't understand nontransactional life choices. in another effort of what jeffrey calls trump's material focused world view, he writes, the president believes that nothing is worth doing without the promise of monetary payback and talented people who don't

pursue riches are losers. according to eyewitnesses after a white house briefing given by the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, trump turned to aides and said that guy is smart, why did he join the military? >> jeffrey, this gets to that underlying question, yes, people reading these quotes will be shocked, even though they -- many believe that they had already seen the low point of donald trump's mind set of his attitude towards america. but people will read it and, of course, be shocked. but you said, as you began putting this story together, you were curious what would make somebody this way. and it does -- it seems like your conclusion is, as we always say about donald trump's foreign policy, follow the money, if you

want to understand why he's close to some countries and not others, it has to do with his own personal finances. in this case, though, you say his attitude toward the military also has to do with his financial view of the world. he can't understand why anybody would sacrifice for their country. >> i think he's genuinely confused by service. i really do. i was thinking about this yesterday. if people had come to me during the presidency of george w. bush and barack obama and said that the president had said x, y, and z about military service, about different factors of the military. i would find it very hard to believe. but i do think these comments are in line with a general and publically stated outlook about the importance of material gain, the importance of not being a looser. if you look at his language through the years the world is a

stark binary for the president. there are losers and winners and you don't want to get caught on the wrong side of that line. he looks at people through service over compensation or dangerous service in particular, the idea that you would willingly, i think the volunteer force in particular kind of confuses him. because why would you ever possibly put your life at risk for, you know, a salary of $64,0 $64,000. it doesn't make any sense, is my point, in his world view. so it comes out at this kind of i don't get it, what's in it for them? which is the thing that he said to general kelly at the grave side of his son. >> there's also, jeffrey is cutting out we'll get back to him in a second. but, mika, there's also a portion of the story where jeffrey reports from sources

close to the trump family. i think mary trump, in fact, had written about it in her book that when don junior had decided to go into the military, donald trump threatened to disown him if he did. >> jeffrey also describes president trump's fixation on staging military parades but only of a certain sort. reading from the article, in a 2018 white house planning meeting for such an event, trump asked his staff not to include wounded veterans. on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable in the presence of amputees. nobody wants to see that he said. as we said the new report also notes president trump's continued fixation on the late senator john mccain, one of the few prominent republicans to continue criticizing him after he won the nomination. quoting from jeff's piece, when

mccain died in august of 2018, trump told his senior staff, according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event, we're not going to support that loser's funeral. and he became furious when he saw flags lowered to half staff. what the f are we doing that for? guy was an fing loser. the president was not invited to mccain's funeral. >> and, of course, one of the many great ironies of the trump administration, and of trump's political rise is, the very people who voted to make john mccain their nominee in 2008, the very people who have spent the last 50 years, since the vietnam war, claiming to be the ones that upheld the dignity of fighting men and women, be it in vietnam or iraq or afghanistan or in iraq yet again, have been

republicans. have been many of the same people now supporting donald trump. many of the same people supporting a man who, according to, again, four very good sources -- four, not one or two, four sources -- are supporting a man who consider our war heroes and war veterans and men and women who serve in the military as suckers and losers. it's inexplicable to me. what are your thoughts? >> well, the thing here is that this is not surprising because i go back to 2015. you know, go back to 2015. he -- he disparaged john mccain's war record. the previous republican nominee for president, by the way, great vietnam war hero, he disparaged

john mccain in ways that no one has ever heard of a national leader disparage a p.o.w. there's nothing new under the sun, in a kind way. maybe i'm not considering the shock as much of these particular words that i reported yesterday, but the republican party, the voters who voted for donald trump, knew full well his attitude toward john mccain as a p.o.w. and as a war hero. so this is part of a continuum. this is not some kind of break where all of a sudden we understand donald trump in a completely new way. >> yeah, and jonathan lemire -- >> it's more proof. >> -- going back to 2015, mika and i remember in december of 2015, pushing donald trump on vladimir putin when he talked about how he was a strong leader, and when we continually pressed saying he assassinates his political opponents,

journalists, he then reference iraq and said well, we kill a lot of people, too. and, of course, you fast forward five years, he's still defending, five years later, vladimir putin. still remaining quiet on the poisoning of political opponents, still remaining quiet on bounties on young american soldiers' heads in afghanistan who are sacrificing. people that he would probably call suckers and losers. and will not speak out and protect those service people. what about the response to this story from the white house? what have you heard? >> well, first of all, this is obviously an extraordinary story. and as you say, it reinforces so much of what we've heard from donald trump as a candidate. frankly, it informs his for

the white house pushed back against the story immediately and forcefully last night. a coordinated response they put out statements denying any part of it. put out travel records that suggests the president did not go to that cemetery in france because of a bad weather call. they put out a memo that suggested as such, it was the military's decision not the president. we heard from the president himself when he returned last night from a speech in pennsylvania, spoke on the tarmac at joint base andrews and denied the entire thing. but why the denials are being met with such skepticism is because the story is so consistent with what he has said about john mccain. it is so consistent with his transactional nature view of foreign policy and just service itself. it is so consistent with this idea that he is no longer tries in terms of how america is viewed in the world. there's no attempt to be a role

model. he's kocozied up to dictators. no attempt to shine the light of a presidency on a bad situation to call for reform or to make -- or for democratic freedom. that's not what he does. i also think, joe, if jeffrey is there, maybe he can answer as well, doesn't also call on the spotlight on the military. we saw after the president cleared lafayette square he was rebuked by general milly, it caused general mattis to pen an op-ed. shouldn't this moment also call for some that served with him, whether it's mattis and in particular john kelly to discuss these things. shouldn't this be where they defend the american soldiers, some of whom have given their lives for their country?

>> his mic isn't working. i have to tell you it does give a sense of the president's core. and it is undermining to our country. every bit of it. listen, here are some of the president's denials, immediate denials last night that jonathan lemire just mentioned. take a look. >> to think that i would make statements negative to our military and our fallen heroes when nobody's done what i've done with the budgets, with the military budgets with getting pay raises for our military. it is a disgraceful situation by a magazine that's a terrible magazine, i don't read it, but i just heard about it. they made it up. and probably it's a couple of people that have been failures in the administration that i got rid of, and i couldn't get rid of them fast enough. or it was just made up. >> yeah and shortly after he released a or ton twitter, i war

a fan of john mccain, disagreed with him on many things but the lowering of the flags and the funeral had to be approved to me by president and i did so without hesitation or complaint. quite the contrary, i felt it was deserved. i never called john a loser and swear on whoever or whatever i was asked to swear on, that i never called our great fallen soldiers anything other than heroes. a number of administration officials also issued unequivocal denials. we'll note that despite trump in that tweet saying he never called mccain a loser you heard the sound bite where trump said he didn't like mccain because, quote, i don't like loser. he retweeted an article with the headline, quote, john mccain is

a loser. >> and a senior official confirmed jeffrey goldberg's story in its entirety, especially the comments about the late james mattis and former marine general john kelly, donald trump's former chief of staff. and that is from the a.p.'s james la porta. donald trump did do things, jeffrey goldberg, or i think we're still working on jeffrey's mic. gene robinson, donald trump is correct in one thing he said last night, obviously shaken by the fact that his words were coming back to haunt him. by the way, i think we know who the sources are, and they are people that have given decades of their lives -- >> they're patriots. >> -- to serving this country and they're patriots, unlike

donald trump. but donald trump is right he has done things with the military that nobody has before. he has attacked war heroes like john mccain, and we have him on tape calling john mccain a loser for being captured because of service as a young man with other heroes, men that i knew like bud day. he also has denigrated and undermined nato, an appliance th -- alliance that helped us defeat soviet communism. he's been trying to gut it for the past four years, he undermined our military and our allies in many syria, abandoned long-term allies there. he's taking troops out of germany right now. also causing consternation to our allies.

and also causing consternation to our troops. and, gene, just bears repeating, because so many people who try to make a living off of anti-anti-trumpism and claim to be american patriots never bring it up, but this is a man who, despite intel briefings and warnings, this is a man who refuses to condemn the placing of bounties on the heads of young american soldiers and marines and airmen and sailors. his record towards the military is disgraceful out in the open even without these four unnamed sources. >> it really is. let me first commend jeff for his excellent and ground breaking reporting. i do believe it's ground

breaking. and also, i will note that since jeff's story was published, a lot of the details were confirmed not just by the associated press but by "the washington post" as well. so, you know, i believe every word of the article. i think people should. and it is -- and i think that we can't just sort of rush past this and say, oh, well, we knew that donald trump was a bad person. we knew he was a farnarcissist, there was a black hole where his soul should be. it is shocking and should be shocking i think to everyone -- >> still shocking. >> -- that this person, this person is president of the united states. commander in chief of the armed forces. and head of state of our

country. it is -- it is -- it would be unbelievable if we did not know this about donald trump already. but to see it laid out to -- that he would speak to john kelly that way as they were going to visit the grave of his son that he would worry more about his hair than honoring the fallen in europe, is -- yes, it's entirely consistent with what we know about donald trump. and yet, it is so beyond the pail, pale, so unacceptable as president that we have to look at this and fully take it in, it is just stunning. it's just stunning. >> you know, he is, and just -- i served for, you know, some

time in washington, and served with at least probably coming and going a thousand people, men and women, conservatives, liberals, i think a couple of socialists mixed in this there, a couple of libertarians mixed in there, and i'm going to say of all the people i crossed, thousand plus people i crossed serving in government, donald trump and we knew this before this portrait but this lays it out in the sharpest of relief so far, is singularly unpatriotic, singularly unfeeling, singularly vein, singularly ignorant of american history. it may explain, i always thought it explained why he attempted to shatter constitutional norms and political norms the way he did,

because he was so ignorant of our history, so ignorant of the constitution -- >> and he's so drawn to dictators. >> and again, it's because of a complete ignorance of this country, of this constitutional republic, the way that james madison and our founders set it up, system of checks and balances, all the things that constitutional conservatives like myself separated in years past that now so many of them have completely thrown out the window because they have now become members of this personality cult and everything they grew up reading, believing has taken a backseat to trying to stay as close to power as possible. you can say that not just as constitutional conservatives you can say it of evangelical pastors. but katty kay, this ignorance plays out in jeffrey's article

when donald trump asks who are the good guys in world war i? who were the good guys in the great war? and professing complete ignorance as to why the united states and why woodrow wilson, who wanted to stay out of the war, had to finally go into the war after one german provocation after another. >> again, i think it gets to this transactional nature, the view of the world that donald trump has. that there always has to be a tangible idea, monetary quid pro quo, why would you go to defend another continent, send your people there, it costs a lot of money, if you're not getting something directly in return. what he doesn't see is the directly in return bit because it's more subtle that perhaps a big paycheck. i spoke to a former senior official at the pentagon last night, someone who calls herself

a conservative, we were talking about the piece. and the thing that almost had her in tears, she was so emotional about this, was the notion that donald trump doesn't understand service. doesn't understand doing something for someone else in the greater good. and i think it really -- i don't know that she voted donald trump last time around, judging from what she was saying last night she is not voting for him this time around. she said i am conservative, this is one of the tenants of conservativism is military service in the service of our country and constitution, and he doesn't get that at all and he doesn't get it because he doesn't know empathy. if you don't know empathy, you can't understand service for others. i just was really struck of all the things she was appalled by the whole article but of all the things it was that sense of essence of what it means to serve the country and he doesn't

get it she felt. >> it means being an american. >> we're talking about this in terms of the military, our military men and women who, my gosh, they do so much for us every day. and they sacrifice because they love their country. how many stories have we heard, how many people close to us did we know who were moved after 9/11? young men who could have done whatever they wanted to do. young women who could have done whatever they wanted to do. staying home, felt the call at 9/11 -- >> to serve. >> -- to go serve their country. yes, there is that part of it but it also explains why donald trump would have such contempt for the men and women of the state department, who as young students decided they wanted to

serve their country and go into government because they believed in the american dream and they wanted to protect the american dream. they wanted to spread american values across the globe or men and women that are serving right now in the justice department, who see that they are now being run by donald trump's roy cohn, and despite their service, giving their life to the justice department, they now have to watch an attorney general go in front of cameras and say he doesn't know if voting twice is legal or not when in north carolina it's a felony, and he knows that it's illegal. and forgive me for going on, but this is so important because i want to say this to the men and women who are serving in the fbi, the men and women who are serving in the cia, the

propavelspr profession sh professionals serving in government offices in washington d.c., all across the country and all across the world. this is disconcerting and donald trump is in the minority. the overwhelming majority of americans hold you up, and they salute you. i'd appreciate it if you take the picture of donald trump down while i'm saying this. the overwhelming majority of americans, overwhelming majority of americans, they salute you and they understand that so many of you in the cia have made great sacrifices, have had to leave your families for months at a time, have had to go over

seas. so many of you in the fbi you risk your life for us every day. so many of you in the state department do as much as you can despite the fact that you have leaders that are more interested in being cronies to the president of the united states than serving this country and who won't even defend your name when donald trump attacks you. understand, you are respected, you are loved by americans, and we salute you for your service. just like we do every man and woman in the united states military. >> what about the people who could make a difference in a situation like this? republicans in the senate and in congress who stand by this president every day no matter what boundary he breaks, do they respect the people you were just talking about, joe? >> they need to speak out and i think some of them will. i really do. i'll say this now that jeffrey

is off the show. if i'm wrong, these people can come out and say so. but they know general kelly. and they understand that general kelly was there and experienced all of this. and if jeffrey weren't telling the truth that general kelly would speak out. they understand that secretary of defense james mattis, general mattis, he was there. he saw so much of this happening day in and day out. if what jeffrey were saying were true, then general mattis would speak out against it. so my good friends that i served with in the house of representatives that are now serving in the united states senate, i really hope they will speak out in defense of our troops and defense of service to this country. >> i want to turn now to a very stark contrast to what we've just been talking about. and that is joe biden's visit

yesterday to wisconsin where he met -- and his wife, jill, as well, met privately with members of jacob blake's family for a 90 minute conversation. jacob also joined by phone. the meeting took place in milwaukee before biden headed to kenosha, where blake, a black man was shot seven times in the back by a white police officer and is now paralyzed. according to the blake family's attorney, the family was impressed with the meeting. the former vice president then participated in a community meeting in kenosha where he spoke at grace lutheran church about his conversation with the blake family. >> had an opportunity to spend some time with jacob on the phone. he talked about how nothing was

going to defeat him. how, whether he walked again or not, he was not going to give up. what i came away with was the overwhelming sense of resilience and optimism that they have about the kind of response they're getting. his mom talked about -- my wife asked to say a prayer, and his mom said a prayer. she said, i'm praying for jacob and i'm praying for the policeman as well. i'm praying that things change. >> let's bring in msnbc news correspondent mike memoli who was on biden's trip yesterday to kenosha and is coauthor to a piece this morning entitled "biden and trump put different visions on vivid display back on the campaign trail". i take it the blake family

didn't want much to do with trump, they couldn't have had a meeting like this? >> no, mika, i've been covering this campaign since the beginning. we have nothing because of the pandemic of a normal general election so far. we've seen biden and trump covering the same ground this week. you take stock of this week and wonder if the two candidates are not just wondering different campaigns with different messages but operating in different uni verses really. you had president trump talking about the record gains in the stock market yesterday in pittsburgh. joe biden was in pittsburgh on monday talking about how many families had to file for bankruptcy. you had joe biden in wilmington on wednesday talking about the issue his campaign thinks is first and foremost in voters'

minds, the pandemic. donald trump celebrating the 75th anniversary of world war ii and not mentioning the pandemic. in kenosha yesterday, the first order of business for joe biden was meeting with jacob blake's family where president trump in his visit earlier in the week only looked with law enforcement and looked at the remnants of looting and rioting we saw there. let's look at what we saw play out on the campaign trail this week. >> i think we're rounding the turn on this china virus. we're rounding the turn. vaccines are happening, therapeutics are happening. you look at the statistics, they're good. >> president trump may not think this is a national emergency, but i think going back to school for millions of children and the impacts on their families and the community is a national emergency. i believe that's what it is. protecting our students, our

educators, our communities, getting our schools open safely and effectively, this is a national emergency. >> mr. blake was shot seven times in the back. do you believe there is a need for structural change? >> i think people are calling for structural change and you can take the people of kenosha that aren't here, they want change also, they want law and order, that's the change they want. they want law and order. they want the police to be police. >> well, i think what's been unleashed with a lot of people is they understand that fear doesn't solve problems, only hope does. >> there have been countless nonviolent protests here in wisconsin and across the country this summer. people calling for an end to systemic racism. do you believe systemic racism is a problem in the country? >> you just keep getting back to

the opposite subject. we should talk about the kind of violence that we've seen in portland and here, and other places. i want's tremendous violence. >> i think we've reached an inflection point in american history. i honest to god believe we have an enormous opportunity now the screen, the curtain has been pulled back, and just what's going on in the country to do a lot of really positive things. >> mr. president, can you tell me what you would say to the blake family? i know you didn't get a chance to talk to them, but what would you say to them in terms of the pain they're going through and the questions they have? >> i feel terribly for anybody that goes through that. that's why i was so honored to meet the pastors. as you know, it's under investigation -- >> had an opportunity to spend some time with jacob on the phone. he's out of icu. we spoke for about 15 minutes.

his brother and two sisters, his dad and his mom on the telephone. i spoke with him a lot before but we spent time together with my wife. and he talked about how nothing was going to defeat him. >> an average of 1,000 people dying every day in the month of august. do you really feel safer under donald trump? mr. trump, you want to talk about fear? do you know what people are afraid of america? afraid they're going to get covid. they're afraid they're going to get sick and die. and that is in no small part because of you. >> rounding the turn on the pandemic. we're rounding that turn. >> mika, regarding these very different approaches to the campaign are two very different assumptions about what the electorate is going to look like in november.

the trump campaign thinks the formula that worked for him in 2016, rallying his base and depressing the turn out of the democratic side is going to work again in 2020, the biden campaign remains convinced what we saw, a fatigue of donald trump, what happened in 2018 is also doing to put joe biden in the white house. >> jonathan lemire your thoughts on a tale of two campaigns, especially that shot of donald trump in pennsylvania yesterday was another super spreader event, a large crowd of people, people excited to see their president, some in masks, many not and seemingly no sense that a dangerous, deadly pandemic was in full action in this country at this moment. >> that's right, mika. this is the new formula for the

trump campaign. the airport hangers. not the size of his mega rallies or what he tried in tulsa over the summer. they are to some degree outdoors, that's good. but a lot isn't. my colleague there said few in the crowd wore masks there wasn't a lot of social distancing, these remain concerns from a health standpoint. to pick up mike's point, we're seeing two different visions of a campaign, no sense, at least not yet, that joe biden is going to have similar events though he is picking up his pace of travel. we know the president is going to be out more days than not, holding events like that, they already advised a few in states next week, florida, arizona, north carolina. there are different styles of govern governoring and almost different realities right now where president trump used his wisconsin event to speak to law

enforcement, to align himself with the response there, to paint the protests as all being violence when they largely have been peaceful demonstrations. while joe biden, of course, took a different approach he made with the family. he addressed the underlying cause of the june reunrest. the black men who suffered and have died at the hands of police. donald trump hasn't mentioned any of that. so it's not just two different styles of approach, it's two different messages to two different audiences to different views of the presidency. that's what we're seeing here, the stark choice, contrast couldn't be more different as we go through the race. >> how fascinating when you look at the split screens of joe biden's event yesterday, and donald trump's event. joe biden wearing a mask because people are around. donald trump and most of the crowd not wearing masks. and katty kay, let's take it a

step beyond that. donald trump actually mocked joe biden yesterday, last night, for wearing a mask, and he asked, do you ever see a man that likes a mask as much as him? it gives him a feeling of security, the president said, if i was a psychiatrist -- learn to speak english, donald trump, it's if i were a psychiatrist -- i'd say this guy has m some big issues. so here's donald trump who -- mocking joe biden, at yet another superspreader event for wearing a mask when donald trump just a month ago was finally convinced to wear a mask and everybody on his staff shamed themselves by talking about how manly and sexy, and whatever

else they said about donald trump. he's now back to mocking americans for protecting those around them. >> i think the lack of the sub junkive may be the least of the problems here. it was such a strange event last night, first of all it broke pennsylvania's own guidelines on how many people can gather in public. so i guess that makes it potentially illegal under pennsylvania law. then at one point in the speech, the president said i'm all for masks he said in the past i look like the lone ranger. i'm all for masks, this weekend is labor day weekend, wear a mask if you need to, i'm all for them. and minutes later there he is and starts mocking joe biden and suggesting there's some kind of security blanket for joe biden in wearing a mask. epidemiologists told us right from the beginning of the pandemic that one of the most important things we need to

fight it is clarity and consistency in messaging. in the space of a few minutes in one speech, donald trump threw that clarity and that consistency out of the window. that makes the people's job trying to fight the pandemic that much harder. fauci was out yesterday warning people about this weekend. warning people about this weekend from the midwest in particular. i want's a holiday weekend, memorial day weekend produced horrible results in this country, they want to make sure labor day doesn't do the same. there is fauci saying wear the mask, this is what's going to get us ready to go into the winter. and what does donald trump do? throws it out the window, muddies the message again. that's going to make it difficult for america to fight the pandemic. >> let's continue on the point for the need for clarity and consistency, while the cdc calls for states to prepare to distribute a covid-19 vaccine in

the coming months. the chief scientific adviser to the trump administration's vaccine development effort says that the time line is extremely unlikely. according to an interview with npr, he's one of two men that president has put in charge of operation warp speed and said there's a very, very low chance that the trials that are running as we speak could be ready by the end of october but he believes a vaccine could be ready by the end of the year. he explained that we may have enough vaccine by the end of the year to immunize probably, i would say, between 20 and 25 million people. he also said immunizing the u.s. population as a whole would take until the middle of 2021. there's a lot of inconsistency between the president and his own people. enough this morning a world

health organization spokesman said they didn't expect widespread vaccinations against the coronavirus until the middle of next year and expressed the importance of effects on their safety and effectiveness. the spokesperson recognized the need for phase 3 trials to take time because we need to see how truly protective and safe the vaccines are. that time is necessary for a reason. joining us now infectious diseases physician and medical director of the special pathogens university at boston university of medicine. dr. nahid bhadelia, an msnbc medical contributor. also with us former senior fellow for global health at the council on foreign relations, lori garrett. she has a new piece on foreign policy entitled trump's vaccine can't be trusted.

let's start there, is it because it's rushed? there's a lot of reasons why vaccines take time, is it because it's rushed and the volume? >> it's more than that. we're dealing with a situation where the white house has ordered every single step of the way ordered our public health agencies and the food and drug administration to violate their own regulatory standards, their own scientific advisers and rush things through the door that are of dubious quality, dubious substantial scientific backing of any kind and the fda has reversed itself on one drug after another, and now in the rush with the cdc ordering that every single state be prepared to do mass vaccination by november 1st, we see the fda back pedaling on one aspect of guaranteeing safety of a vaccine after another. we just got this amazing letter

released by the ceos and executives of the top bio tech firms nationwide, saying, please, please, please, you must qua kwaurn tee you will operate safely and not with press releases, pr firms, which is a slam against some of the vaccine makers who have failed to publish in scientific literature and telling us their vaccines look swell in press releases. >> doctor, you comment on the vaccine situation but also mitigation. how is the country doing in terms of having consistent mitigation for the coronavirus, which does work? >> that's right, mika. i think the two are connected. i want to comment on lori's

piece and this concept of pushing and politicizing potentially the release of a vaccine. here's the tough part. we're in a period where we saw the evidence, our sources for guidance, the cdc, fda, falter. we saw the fda overexaggerate the efficacy of convalescent plasma. the guidelines don't make sense around asymptomatic testing. people without symptoms who present 40% of the transmission. now we're in a place we have to have our guards up. we feel when we do have a safe and effective vaccine, i hope when and not if, then we have to work double to bring the trust of the public back to say it's safe, you should take this. that's why to lori's point about having the evidence out in the

open as soon as possible is so important we have to look at the evidence. there's going to have to be a transparent process by which we evaluate that evidence to bring that trust back. it's again on another self-inflicted wound in which we are just making it harder to control this pandemic, this loss of potential confidence in the ability of the fda to do this. the mitigation part, we're talking generalized distribution of this vaccine in 2021, that means even after that, it takes a bit of time to build the kind of immunity. we need to push the message of importance, wearing the mask, reducing the number of people indoors. that doesn't go away. we need to recognize this is our new normal and how we continue. >> really quickly for both of you, the number of the screen, doctor will start with you and go to lori. the number of dead on the screen, 187,000 had we mitigated

and had ppe from day one, we could have, this was coming and we knew in january it was coming, would that number, 187,811 people dead still be this high? doctor? >> absolutely not. not only just the ppe but we've made so many other faltering steps along the way. >> lori? >> i agree completely. and it's not just a question of did we wear masks, did we do this, that? we never have had consistent messaging that told the american people how to protect themselves. these are deaths that can be blamed to poor governance. >> yep. lori garrett and dr. nahid bhadel bhadelia, thank you both for being on the show this morning. to pennsylvania, a new poll finds joe biden leading by eight points, 52 to 44%. in florida, the poll gives biden

a three point lead over the president, 48 to 45. in north carolina the two are statistically tied within the poll's 4.9 margin of error. biden 47%, trump 45. joining us now, national political correspondence for msnbc news, steve kornacki. we saw a lot of new polls this week, what is standing out to you? >> you look at the different state polls, it's great to get them because we're saying this is about the electoral college, not the popular national vote. the thing that jumps out at me is the numbers are consistent with what we see in the national polling average right now. if you look nationally, it's a 7 point advantage on average for biden over trump. if you look back to 2016, obviously, hillary clinton won the popular vote by two points. from a two point clinton win in 2016 to a seven point biden lead

right now in the national polls that's a swing of 5 points in the democrats' direction. look at one state poll after another, it's a four, five, six point shift from where the 2016 result was in these states. it looks like these states have moved roughly, not exactly, but have roughly moved with that national popular vote. obviously they are closer. the national popular -- polling being seven points right now. that is the reality, that's what bears repeating between now and election day, that donald trump can lose the popular vote potentially by a significant margin, 3, 4 points, he could do that and still find a way, potentially to win the electoral college. i think the national race has it tightened by several points. if he can get the national average within five i think that

movement when you translate it to the state level in state after state potentially puts him in position to pick off north carolina, florida, all of these must win states. i think he has to get the national margin tighter. it sounds like it's a simple step if he's down 7, 8 points can you get it down to 4 or 5? if you look at the daily poll averages from the start of the year until now there have really only been a handful of days when trump has been within five points of joe biden. he needs to be i think at least within five points of joe biden. >> jonathan lemire? >> steve, joe and i have been talking all week about pennsylvania how that's a state that has stayed tight and obviously donald trump has no path to victory if he loses florida. here's my question to you, put out a call if you will for other states where we want to see polls from. i think arizona is one, the

trump campaign is growing nervous about arizona meanwhile growing more bullish about minnesota. what are other states we need to hear from? and what thoughts you have about the trump campaign to refigure their map to get to 270 with some of the states in in the midwest, michigan in particular looking tough for them. >> if the trump campaign is going to pick off a state they didn't get in 2016 i think minnesota is most likely to be that state. they say they believe the unrest in kenosha, the focus on the president's message of law and order, they think it helps them in a state like minnesota, the indications from wisconsin suggest maybe that's not the case but let's see a poll there. here's another one, not a state -- not something we're accustomed to polling but something i would like to see, that could be consistent when we look at the board election night, nebraska does their

electoral votes c two states tht does that. if you win the district, you get the vote. there's a district around omaha ha donald trump won by only a handful of points, about a three point victory in 2016, the democrat graph demographics of that district have moved to the point the democrats believe they can pick up that vote. i would like to see a poll of that. >> election ballots will be mailed out today as the key state of north carolina officially kicks off the voting season. we'll get a live report next on "morning joe." rort next on "morning joe."

i think she's a disgrace. i actually don't think she's a

talented person. i've tried to be nice to her because i would have liked to have gotten some deals done. she's incapable of doing deals. she's a nasty, vindictive horrible person. >> when the president could actually be bothered to visit the cemeteries of fallen american troops he used the opportunity to smear a domestic political opponent while oversees. >> on a date, by the way, that is about as sacred as any date to members of the military and also to those of us who greatly appreciate their sacrifices, d-day. >> it's what we do. >> when you're sitting there with the graves of our fallen he heroes at normandy behind you, and we were there when that was happening, it's absolutely shocking. it's as shocking as what he said at arlington when he was walking

with general kelly. it's just, you know, we keep going through these phases where people say it's getting worse and you can see an article every six months, things are getting worse, we didn't think they were going to get worse, i remember jonathan lemire writing something about people saying things are getting even worse now, worse than people expected. george conway writing something several months later. pretty soon people started to say we understand there's no bottom to this man, to donald trump. and, you know -- >> it's not getting worse, it's always been terrible. >> but you just don't know how low that bottom can be and then you read the jeffrey goldberg piece and you realize, again, there's just no way to predict just how terrible it is.

and it does. it does seem to keep getting worse. >> katty kay and gene robinson are still with us, joining the conversation we have msnbc national affairs analyst and co-host of "the circus" john heileman. donny deutsch is with us, executive editor of jen, a publication focused on power and politics, and founder of the conservative website the bull work and author of how the right lost its mind, charlie sykes. >> charlie i want to start with you get your response to jeffrey's article. you and i growing up in the same political tribe, so to speak. one of the things that i think actually shaped our tribe's

world view was vietnam and stand with the troops, america love it or leave it during the iraq war people putting the yellow ribbons on the back of their cars. always, always putting right up front how much we supported the troops. and here, we have the republican president with the 97% support in the republican party saying the most disparaging thing about american troops and service to country and the only thing his supporters on twitter and tv can say is, why won't they say it on the record? which, of course, nobody was asking the fbi agents denigrating hillary clinton during the 2016 to put their names on the record. it's fascinating the double standard. this is all that our former political allies are left with. >> i had a flash back this

morning thinking about a time i was sitting in d.c. at the world war ii memorial, i had flown with a group of veterans on an honor flight and this was back in 2016, i was thinking this country and these veterans deserve so much more than donald trump, this vain, shallow, unempathic for thnarcissist. the people we call the anti-anti-trumpers, they know it's true. they know the guy. but this -- if they acknowledge it, if they believe it, it's a real challenge to their conscience. because how can you defend this -- >> charlie, can i interrupt you for one second. one of my pet peeves with these anti-anti-trumper who is do what they do for clicks, do what they do for ratings, they won't defend donald trump but they

love criticizing donald trump's opponents and people who attack donald trump. these people will show nancy pelosi on a loop and they will make a huge deal about nancy pelosi's hair cut, and yet they never have said anything, the overwhelming majority, the anti-anti-trump squad have never said anything about vladimir putin putting bounties on the heads of american troops. never said anything about it. but they will grab whatever scratch from some idiot talk show host like myself. or some mistake that a newspaper will make and will blow it up into two weeks worth of content, but will ignore donald trump being obsee quo you to a man that was putting bounties on troops' heads. >> a lot of anti-anti-trumpers

have a vestige of a conscience here. and they managed to accept a great deal. but if they had to sit and think is the commander in chief playing footsie with vladimir putin, which is the answer is yes, does the commander in chief have that much contempt for those that served, does he not want to see wounded warriors because that wouldo fe offend h. let's talk about nancy pelosi's hair instead. the thing about the story that's so painful for them is donald trump has told us over and over again how he is. his attacks on john mccain, the gold star families. this is the lens through which donald trump sees the world, winners versus losers. when you're talking about p.o.w.s or people missing in

action, this president does not have the understanding of human suffering or human sacrifice or serving a cause larger than himself. that's what makes this story so devastating. i would like people to come out on record. i would like to hear from general kelly. i think this is the moment where if you saw this in real time, this is when you share this with the american people, because at that point, look, it becomes much, much harder to avoid and ignore the man who's sitting as commander in chief and has the power of life and death over hundreds of thousands of americans in uniform right now. >> we all said it after 9/11, if you see something, say something. now is the time, if you saw it, say it. and, of course, donald trump is not making the job of anti-anti-trumpers any easier by

going out and calling jeffrey goldberg a liar and attacking the story and swearing on whatever or whoever, whoever you want me to swear on i'll swear on it, i never called john mccain a loser. we bumped in the show with donald trump on tape calling john mccain a loser. there are more receipts, donny deutsch. a guy you know well, michael cohen. in his prepared remark before answers questions on wednesday cohen described how trump tried to disfus questions of his service during his campaign. trump, quote, tasked me to handle the negative press from his deferment from the draft. mr. trump claimed it was because of a bone spur, quote, cohen said but when i asked for medical records he gave me none and said there was no surgery. he added, quote, he finished the

conversation with the following comment. you think i'm stupid? i wasn't going to vietnam. that's from sworn testimony from michael cohen, which again, lines up consistently, donny with absolutely everything else we have seen and heard from this man about military service over the past four years. >> yes. michael just sent me that about 90 seconds ago, so he's watching. and obviously those words speak for themselves you'll hear more from michael in the next week or so. i want to pick up where charlie was, not as much talk about donald trump. but the voters supporting him. when the article came out yesterday evening i sent it to a couple friends of mine who are trump supporters and they did exactly what jeffry was talking about, it's four sources and obviously the reporter doesn't like him. the other sent me an article about joe biden and a vote he made in 1991. the point is, at this point you have to own it. if you vote for donald trump

now, you don't get to say anymore, he says a lot of stupid things. you are endorsing the d denigration of our war heroes. i challenge everyone watching the show to talk to trump supporters and make sure you own this now. when you vote for donald trump, this is who you are. this is no longer who donald trump is. this is who you are. you don't get to buy a la carte. it comes as a full meal at this point. if i was also working on a democratic campaign, part of the lincoln project, do not let this go. joe you mentioned this is the bottom, this is the bottom. this is who this man is and this is who you are if you are a voter. it's you if if you vote for donald trump. you can't turn away, point to the other guy, say the press is wrong. this is who you are, not only donald trump.

>> john heileman the president finds himself now where he's in the position to condemn this article and say it's fiction and the anti-anti-trump brigade swirling around doing their best to defend the demented man can say it's just -- it's anonymous quotes. something they never said during all of the leaks to the "new york times" during the hillary clinton email investigation. but general james mattis has already spoken out against donald trump, in his own way general john kelly has done the same, as has general mcmaster. you don't have to be columbo to figure out who at least three of these four sources are, and the risk donald trump makes is the more he pushes back on it the most he smokes these generals out and they say on the record in in the closing two months of the campaign what they're only saying off the record right now.

>> right. i think that's a great danger for trump at this point. i joined the chorus of people who think that these military people, particularly, who if these stories are true, we have no reason not to think they 'true, they're consistent with everything that trump has said and done. you have the receipts, but also, who really thinks that -- jeffrey's story kind of illustrates and puts all the facts together, it -- part of its power is it reinforces something that we all already kind of think about donald trump. people who dodged the draft generally think that people who got drafted are i hdiotidiots. that's an intri sixty thing to draft dodgers. so given all the things that trump has said and we know, the core of this is not the shock of

it, really. because i don't really think you, joe, or i or others who have a dark view of how donald trump thinks about the world and service and selflessness and the profit motive, none of this is shocking. what's most shocking is he said it to so many people in so many circumstances that he left so many bread crumbs around. now the question becomes, in his defense does he manage to provoke some of these people, s esteemed military leaders, who i think they owe us stepping out and putting it on the record, because if these stories are true, and we believe they are, he's unfit for office. if he's unfit to be commander in chief, lead the military, these people have a moral obligation at this point to step forward and say these things. but trump you are right right now in the way he's defending

himself he's risking forcing them to do something they have previously not done. this is one of the great suspenseful dramas, how many of those people who saw it firsthand decide they feel because of their conscious or the way trump is behaving they have to step forward and say, here is the whole story from an eyewitness point of view? >> i would only hope they would be guided by general mcmaster's book about vietnam. talking about dereliction of duty. if you see something, say something. and if there is a crisis. if america is facing a crisis, you owe it to your country to stand up and speak out. yes, i'm glad they spoke to jeffrey goldberg, but between now and the election, if they saw something, they need to say something and they need to put their names to it. >> it evokes so many questions about the people around him.

there are those who will lie to him. but there are many who are patriots and who may have served are still in there, or who have left. and i can't imagine why now would not be the time with this report coming out. i want to ask you, you're writing about the chaos candidate. how does this reporting fit in to what you're seeing? >> well, i think with donald trump, if he had to run on the fundamentals he would be in very, very bad shape. if you said four years ago, you're going to have an incumbent who has the highest debt levels since the end of world war ii we have the worst recession since the great depression, the most people unemployed, we have the worst pandemic in 100 years, these are fundamentals that are very suggestive of someone not able to govern the country and not

able to protect americans. and so his only response, his only play in all of this is more chaos. because with all the systems feeling like they're melting around us, people don't know what to do. they are systems we used to rely upon, the postal service, centers for disease control, food and drug administration. we have the postal service delaying mail, destroying disease. we have the cdc telling people exposed to coronavirus they don't have to be tested because they don't have symptoms yet even though we know people who are asymptomatic are likely to spread the vie virus before symptoms. the fda and the convalescent plasma, i think come november we'll have a debate over a vaccine that will have been inadequately tested.

if we're seeing a vaccine put forward on an emergency use authorization basis, i feel that's a political play. they're directing hospitals to get ready for distribution of vaccine. and i don't think we're ready for it yet. so in all of this, creating more chaos and uncertainty is the play. >> i spoke to my doctor yesterday, john heileman, who laughed at the prospect of getting vaccines. i said we get a notification. i said are you going to get it? he said, are you kidding me, it's not going to be close to getting a vaccine by early november. and even if we did, it would not be tested adequately enough. but following up, this chaos candidate, which jeb bush called him the chaos candidate as well in 2015, i think, but the chaos

that the -- the whirlwind that surrounds donald trump, no masks. he's mocking joe biden for wearing a mask yesterday. no testing. he has said publicly that he told his administration to stop with the testing. pushing convalescent plasma as, you know, government by gesture right before the rnc so he could have the big announcement before the rnc that we're turning the corner. still saying last night that we're turning the corner. this is basically magically going to go away like he's been saying for so long. and then, with air force one behind him, speaking to a reporter, tells voters in north carolina to commit a felony. and then, making that even worse, more chilling, the attorney general of the united states saying he doesn't know whether that's a crime and then starts rambling on in the cnn

interview with wolf blitzer about the possibility of vote fraud, trying to set up this fall the possibility of the attorney general stepping in when donald trump loses the vote and loses the electoral college to step in and say wait a second, we need to put a halt to these procedures. it is chaos. and then you look at joe biden speak and the contrasts are remarkable. but again, donald trump keeps descending more and more into chaos, no matter what his team plans for him to do. he can't stay on script. he continues to make these terrible mistakes. and by doing so, makes joe biden a guy who's been seen for 30 years as kind of being politically undisciplined and off the cuff, suddenly making joe biden look as steady as dwight eisenhower by comparison. >> right.

that's a long question, joe. >> wasn't really a question, was it heileman? it was really -- this is to chris matthews. a little ginger ale for that question. >> i didn't want to be rude and point it out. i was like, there's going to be a question here somewhere. >> no question. >> i think the point is this, what i think -- the observations you just made are all accurate. here's the question, does chaos hurt trump or does it help him? i think, you know, there's a conventional view of this, which is that the -- i think it's basically right, that americans want to get back to normal, they want there to be safety, stability, get their jobs back, feel safe to go back to school, they want for there to be a vaccine, they want the virus to go away and that donald trump's chaos is repellant to enough people that all joe biden has to do is convince, again, enough

people that he is the likelier path towards stability and normalcy than trump is, that should be a relatively easy case to make and the case that biden is now trying to make. trump is helping him make that case by behaving in a chaotic way. all of that is true. i think there's another side to it, though. if you start from the premises that i think you and i share, and i know mika shares, which is that donald trump will do whatever he has to do to try to stay in office, including cheat and try to steal the election. then the question is, does chaos -- in the narrow sense does chaos help trump to steal the election? does creating chaos hurt trump in the conventional model of choosing presidents but does it help him create the scenario that's more ripe for mischief, for the kind of legal, extra

legal, that he and barr are going to engage in to try to effectively undermine the election and somehow hold onto power. i think that is the way in which chaos hurts him in the traditional horse race, helps him in that objective. >> joe, you can take it to the next panelist but think about it this way, if a man would say what he said to a man who lost his son while standing at his son's grave side, this is a man who would do anything. i don't think he's leaving. i think he will try to cheat to stay and do whatever he can to create chaos and scorch the earth around this country and get what he wants. i don't know how you look at these quotes and see him any other way. >> he can try what he wants to do, can try to go back and build a rocket ship to mars with cereal boxes. i'm perhaps in the minority but

i'm one of the few people who believe that the democracy that has held him in check if for years -- i know people say -- >> i get it we can debate. >> the judiciary that autocrats have undermined in hungary, in poland, in russia, that autocrats always undermine, even federalist judges, even conservative judges have done exactly what the founders had hoped they would do -- >> i agree. we can debate. >> -- the same with the media -- >> whether or not the system holds but it's not debatable anymore how far this man will go, how low he will go, and how dark his soul is. >> i said several weeks ago the man would shoot us if he could. >> i'm not going to fifth avenue. i'm serious. >> he would get away -- i think even the anti-anti-trump brigade

that's been so cowardly and trying to prop him up would admit that donald trump has contempt for anything that binds him, as far as power goes, and would do whatever he could get away with. gene, i've learned my lesson from the last question i asked. understanding that brevity is the sole of wind my question to you is this, does chaos help or hurt donald trump? >> i think chaos helps him but i think chaos just is what he is, first of all. i think that maybe -- you know, maybe there's a -- there's a process of thought among trump and some of his aides that chaos is a good thing for us. but i think mostly it's just who he is. and just how he is. and, you know, it's just not --

i'm one of the people who believes he does not play three dimensional chess. he would eat the chess pieces. he doesn't -- he's not some sort of subtle political genius. he is a malign force of nature. in many ways. but i'm part of your minority that believes that if, and hopefully when, he loses the election he gets booted out of office one way or another, that the system does work. that the system provides a transfer of power no matter what kind of chaos he tries to generate and that -- and that probably the backstop is the judiciary and in the -- in the end.

and i this i the record of the judiciary has been pretty good in holding him accountable. i do, he -- he gets -- he tries to do all these crazy things and judges say, no, actually, you can't do that. no, that's not constitutional. no, that's not a proper executive order. no, you can't. and, you know, sometimes he tries to find ways around that. but i -- i think the backstop holds. and i think with -- you know, one hopes he's out of here. >> charlie, we spoke in january or february. i think it might have been february of 2017, and we -- not actually spoke a lot before donald trump became president of the united states. but i remember being in a phone call with you if in february of 2017 and both of us absolutely stunned by how many of our

former fellow conservatives were lining up and refusing to speak out against donald trump in office. and i remember you saying then that from what you had heard from federal judges, from conservative judges, from federalist society judges, they were not going to sit back quietly and allow donald trump to attack other federal judges like the george w. bush appointee in washington state who was holding him to account for his so-called muslim ban. you said that the federal judges, even the most conservative federal judges, saw an attack against one as an attack against all in the independent federal judiciary. how do you think they've done over the past three, three and a half years? >> i do think they have tried to be a firewall against donald trump. but also, i think it's worth

remembering that the courts cannot save us from everything going on right now. joe, i want to believe that you're right about all this. but i'm afraid i have to go with mika and john, because what you're seeing with donald trump and the chaos candidate is annihilation of truth, of norms. that may not mean the end of democracy, but it's necessary but not sufficient. i think that the one thing that people looking for is someone to bail us out. that the court is going to come in and say you can't do this. the united states senate when it had a chance to hold him accountable didn't say that. i don't think the united states supreme court wants to get involved in this and may in the end step in but say, look, if you're going to save the democracy, it's on us. it is really on us. if we're hoping the judges are going to stand to thwart donald trump's annihilation of

constitutional norms we may be disappointed. this is a moment where the american democracy is going to have to save itself. >> charlie thank you for being on. early voting kicks off today in north carolina with the state sending hundreds of thousands of mail in ball los to voters. let's bring in reporter josh letterman live in raleigh. how is it going? >> so far, so good. there are a lot of states in our country that have a long tradition of mail-in voting. north carolina is not one of them. but they are about to get a real crash course just to give you a sense. in a typical election about 5% here tends to vote by mail. this year officials are telling me they expect the number to go as high as 40%. we're still 60 days out from the election. in most of north carolina they've already received 230fou times the number of ballot

requests than they would in an entire election. the first of the ballots are sent here in wake county from the board of elections behind me. we were watching as they were sticking them in the process of getting them in the envelopes, loaded to trucks where they'll be sent out by the usps. they said they're prepared for the onslaught of ballots but the question is, what additional chaos will be created by the president who encourages people to send in ballots and then still show up on election day and try to vote. >> katty kay on the chaos candidate topic, from the outside looking in, i think election day could be chaotic and that's exactly what donald trump wants. and i think what could happen after that is anyone's bet. i think he won't leave.

>> i think, you know, if you're looking at this from the kremlin, this chaos is perfect. i agree with john it creates fertile ground for making mischief. run through the things the president is doing, the dhs not publishing the report on russia trying to spread stories about joe biden, meddling with the post office, trump telling people to vote twice, trump telling people the vote is going to be fraudulent, all of that is being picked up by russia. so whether he try to contain the chaos domestically, my concern is we may be ceding the ground to somebody else. what does russia want to do? russia doesn't necessarily pick sides, although it seems to be picking the side of trump that it meddled in, it wants to undermine the democracy. it wants to make people doubt their vote, the processes. and everything that trump does allows them to amplify it.

that's what the latest intelligence reporting is that russia is amplifying the chaos that trump is spreading. they feel that's to their benefit. we may try to protect the democracy of this country but it may be we are already ceding it to somebody else. >> since we've been talking about your column the entire segment, we should get your read and your reporting, did you find that chaos was helping donald trump or is it getting in his way of being able to have a sustainable message that will start moving more biden supporters or undecided voters to his side? >> i think there are no undecided biden voters going and voting for donald trump at this point. donald trump's play is to reduce the number of biden voters by creating doubts that keep people from voting entirely or that make it difficult for them to vote or make them wonder if

their vote is going to be countcoun counted. he has malt pl and conflicting message has always had multiple and conflicting message. but he knows he needs a clip that can go on facebook and each message can be micro targeted. they don't have to agree with each other, they can bedy may k -- micro targeted to different communities who don't pay attention and they feel like he's speaking to them. that's what he's trying to do right now. >> what a great point that he can get a clip, he can have a false statement, he can be micro targeted on facebook by the time facebook responds seven days later, eight days later, it's too late. they've gotten all the impresentations thi impressions they need. and now republicans are following up. we have republicans in the past repeat russian disinformation,

even though they were warned not to by the intel community, and now we have the russians picking up on donald trump's lies and his misinformation and spreading that across facebook as well. >> thanks facebook. thank you, facebook. still ahead on "morning joe" we'll talk to the head of a group that supports moderate republicans in congress, including her thoughts on suburban women voters whom the president is trying to scare into supporting him. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. who is usaa made for? it's made for this guy a veteran who honorably served and it's made for her she's serving now we made it for all branches and all ranks whether they served one tour or made a career of it. we also made usaa for military spouses and their kids usaa is easy to work with and can save you money

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my wife and daughter had been killed in an automobile crash, and lying in the bed were my two little boys. i couldn't have imagined what it would've been like if i didn't have insurance to cover them immediately and fully. forty years later, one of those little boys, my son beau, was diagnosed with terminal cancer, given months to live. i can't fathom what would have happened if the insurance companies had the power to say, "the last few months, you're on your own." the fact of the matter is health care is personal to me. obamacare is personal to me. when i see the president of the united states try to eliminate this health care in the middle of a public health crisis, that's personal to me too.

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it's time now for a look at some of the other stories we're following this morning. a car rammed through a crowd of black lives matter protesters in times square last night, hitting several people on foot and on

bicycles. cell phone video posted to social media shows a dark sedan honking several times before plowing into a crowd of people. standing in front of the vehicle leaving a scene of demonstrators chasing after the car. video shows the driver initially stopped for a brief moment and then suddenly accelerated through the crowd. at least one person was injured. protesters were gathered last night following the release of police body camera footage that shows police officers in rochester new york handcuffing daniel prude, covering his head with a hood and pinning him to the ground until he lost consciousness. the man suspected in the shooting death of a right wing activist after clashes in portland last saturday was himself shot and killed by federal law enforcement outside offo limb pea ya last night. officials say it happened as members of a u.s. marshal's

fugitive task force tried to apprehend, michael a ranell. they say he was carrying a gun. after an hour after the incident the president tweeted why aren't the police arresting the cold-blooded killer of aaron danielson. do your job and do it fast. everyone knows who this thug is. no wonder portland is going to hell. danielson was shot last weekend. back to politics. one race for congress that's garnering a lot of attention. the republican front runner for georgia's congressional seat and

professed professed qanon believer, posted a photo of herself holding an ar-15 saying she wanted to go after three progressive democrats who refer to themselves as the squad. in june politico uncovered hours of video in which green expressed racist, islamaphobic video. since then, republicans have denounced her candidacy, not president trump who called her a future star after winning her run off primary last month. she was also invited to attend his convention acceptance speech at the white house.

joining us now sarah chamberlain. thank you for being on. there are moderate republicans running, but what do we make of this qanon believer that is getting the support of the president. how does one characterize this and try to help people understand what is really happening here? >> her election is unfortunate, she won the primary. here republican main street we got rid of steve king, beat him in a primary, we were hoping all would be good. i think this cycle she's not going to be a problem, but when she gets elected and her views are more prominent she will be a problem for the republican party. >> her views were pretty public, weren't they? are you concerned there is support for them? >> i'm very concerned there's support for them but as i tour

the country interviewing suburban women they're not familiar with her yet. but however when she becomes a member of congress they will know her. >> tell us about the candidates you're supporting. >> a middle of the road gentleman in iowa. we have five candidates we won in gerrymandered districts by turning out women. and we have brian phillips in the suburbs of philadelphia, which i know you talk about on the show. don bacon in nebraska. there are still moderates alive and well in this party. they're not as vocal, don't get as much media attention but they're there. and the suburban women are voting for them for all the research we got. >> katty kay? >> i was just wondering, particularly in the case of

marjorie taylor green. how much information do you have about what's going on on facebook? particularly in these kind of closed groups that often support the candidates that we can't see from the outside. how much support do they have there? sometimes i feel with these more extreme candidates we don't know from the outside how much support they have because we can't see what's going on on the closed group social media pages. >> from the outside she doesn't have that much support but she does within this group of individuals who are very loud. the majority of the people are not that loud, so they tend to be quiet and, as i said, most of the people i talked to, which i talked to about 250 suburban women a week, they don't know who she is. she has not penetrated through yet. i do not talk to anyone in her crowd but if i did, they know who she is, and i think that's a problem going forward for the gop because those people who are

allowed and support her views will unite around her as she gets sworn in as a member of congress. and i believe she's going to be sworn in as a member of congress. >> sarah chamberlain thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we'll zero in further on the role of women in politics. a new film highlights the record number of first-time female candidates who ran, won, and up ended politics in what became the historic barrier breaking 2018 midterm elections. >> i always tell the story that i never slept on november 8th. >> the scene here is so different than a few hours ago. >> what started off as impossible is now reality. >> but i sure as hell woke up on november 9th. >> it might not have been the glass ceiling that shattered but

something exploded. >> powerful men existed in a protected bubble. >> i'm tired of a congress of the old boys club. >> we deserve better. >> a record number of women getting into politics. >> more than two-thirds seeking office for the first time. >> this huge surge of women. >> what's behind the surge of women. >> there are so many elected positions in the country where a woman has never served. where a woman of color has never served. >> the right race is the right time and i'm the race candidate. >> i had to run. i had to do it. >> women are now the most important political force in the united states of america. >> the new documentary is called "surge," and it's set to premier tuesday on show time. joining us democratic congresswoman of illinois, the youngest african-american woman to be elected to congress and one of the women profiled in the film. also with us, directors and producers of the film "surge" hannah rosenswag and wendy

sacks. hannah served as avwith hillary clinton's campaign and wendy served as press secretary on capitol hill. hannah and wendy i'll start with you. i love this on so many levels because it's very much like a woman to say forget it, i'll do it myself, you guys are so bad. it feels like that's what happened during the midterms. it felt like so many women were so fed up they rolled up their sleeves and had to pick up the pieces. what was really, i guess, the inspiration for this film? hannah, i'll start with you. >> well, we were just seeing after the massive women's marches in 2017 we were seeing that women were not only marching but there were all these women from all over the country who were saying, hey, we need to run for office to make real change in our communities. so wendy and i felt like it was

just such an important story and that it would be a historic moment and it ended up being a historic moment with the new congress in had 2018 and lauren's incredible win, so that was really the genesis of the story. >> wendy tell us, because -- >> we were casting for characters and trying to figure out who we wanted to follow. we wanted to follow a group of diverse women, they were all running for the first time. and we were looking for women looking to flip their red districts to blue. we were looking for the women who really represented this movement and lauren underwood just popped. we were early on we had heard about her race. we knew she was running in a challenging district, she's

young, she's a nursing and she was out fighting a scrappy race and she emerged as one of these candidates to follow. >> >> i just want to -- as the lone guy on the panel, i want to make a point, but i do believe women are going to save this country. i've written a book and in a chapter i talk about how women are superior, the black woman voter, the suburban woman voter, they have a sense of strength. i really believe we're going to be talking the first week of november about how women saved this country. so congratulations and i'm reaching out to the superior gender to save us because i know that's going to happen. >> you couldn't be more right. caddie kay, jump in. >> congresswoman, let me say

this to you. you came into office not knowing that there was going to be a massive pandemic around the corner. you have a medical background. you have a nurse. you would think that would make you a shoo-in for re-election because you understand the science, you can deal with the biggest crisis that your constituents are facing at the moment. how is it looking for you going into 2020? does the fact that you have this medical background help you? >> well, my community certainly knows my credentials and are familiar with my accomplishmented. three bipartisan bills signed into law by president trump. we have 60 days until the election. about three weeks until ballots are mailed out krooacross my community to those who have requested them. so we are in the thick of it right now. >> lauren underwood, i wonder what was the inspiration for your campaign. was it sort of being -- was it being fed up or was this a lifelong career aspiration for

you? >> well, i decided to run after serving in the obama administration. i had worked on public health emergencies and disasters. i stayed and served until the very last day and returned home to illinois, our state-expanded medicaid. when i went to my congressman's one and only pun event of 2017, it was during the time of obama care repeal. and he h and he made a promise. i'm a nurse. i worked on the affordable care act and i have a pre-existing condition. two weeks later, he voted on the version of the repeal that made it cost prohibitive for people like me to get affordable coverage and i decided, you know what? it's on. i'm running. >> i love it. the new documentary is "surge"

and it remeres on showtime this tuesday at 9:00 p.m. hannah, wendy, thank you so much. congresswoman lauren underwood, thank you, as well. and we'll just note that we've reached out to congresswoman underwood's opponent and we're working to schedule him for an interview. now let's turn to tom brokaw who has covered his fair share of presidential elections. he said over the years he's developed some key words to live by. here is tom. >> i've been covering presidential elections since 1968. and i have an enduring motto to help guide me. i call it the ufo, the unforeseen will occur. no greater example than four years ago when hillary clinton took an early nap thinking she would awake as the president of the united states. in a presidential election year two months, which is what we

have left now, can be three lifetimes. especially in an age of 20/7 communication. where everyone has access to an opinion or a point of view. this is the most divided i have seen this country since vietnam. and now we have a historically devastating pandemic and no end yet in sight. more ufos. what are the russians going to be up to, the chinese will likely try to interfere. president trump promises a scorched earth campaign. democrats will have to keep the many parts of their party on the same track and under control. mail-in ballots, how long will it take to count them? there will be wounds and as yet unseen ufos. america is at a historical crossroads. so buckle up, everyone.

step up. and remember ufos are out there. i'm tom brokaw somewhere in montana. >> i love it. commentary from nbc's tom brokaw. coming up, our conversation with the atlantic's jeffrey goldberg after his new block bur buster reporting on president trump disparaging u.s. service members and war casualties and the real reason why he reportedly canceled a trip to a cemetery for fallen soldiers in 2018. plus, economists predict the jobs report due out in a half hour will show the economic recovery slowed even further last month. we'll bring you the numbers when they cross. and joe biden visits kenosha where he called for an end to systemic racism while condemning looting and violence. morning joe is coming right

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i supported him for penalty. i raised $1 million for him. that's a lot of money. he lost. so i never looked him as much after that because i don't like losers. but frank, let me get to it. he hit me -- >> he's a war hero. >> he's not a war hero. he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured, okay? i hate to tell you. >> does donald trump owe you an apology? >> no, i don't think so. but i think he may owe an apology to the families of those who have sacrificed in conflict and those who have undergone the prison experience in serving their country.

i'm in the arena as tr used to say, but in the case of many of our veterans, when mr. trump said that he prefers to be with people who are not captured, well, the great honor of my life it was to serve in the company of heros. i'm not a hero. but those who were my senior ranking officers, those inspired us to do things that we otherwise wouldn't have been capable of doing. those are the people that i think he owes an apology to. >> there are so many people who miss the great john next contain. >> late senator john mccain reacting to donald trump disparaging his military service. this morning, new reporting from jeffrey goldberg in "the atlantic" magazine has more details on the president's fixation with next contain and a whole lot more.

good morning and welcome to morning joe. it is friday, september 4th. jeffrey gold berg is the author of that new piece on president trump disparaging america's war dead. in a moment, we're going to get new reporting on joe biden's visit to kenosha, wisconsin, yesterday. it was in stark contrast to the president's visit earlier in the week with biden calling for an end to systemic racism, while condemning looting and violence. and biden met privately with members of jacob blake's family for a 90-minute conversation that blake himself joint by

phone. but we will begin this morning with jeffrey's new reporting on president trump using words like losers and suckers to describe american soldiers, repeatedly disparaging veterans and cited four unnamed people with firsthand knowledge of the president's comments. jeffrey writes when trump canceled a visit to an american cemetery near paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the last-minute decision saying the helicopter couldn't fly and that secret service wouldn't drive him there. neither claim was true. trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain and because he did not believe it was important to honor the american war debt. trump said, why should i go to that cemetery? it's filled with losers.

in a separate conversation on the same trip, trump referred to the more than 1800 marines who lost hr lives suckers for getting killed. >> so, jeffrey, let's start. first, let's talk about the genesis of this article. when did you begin reporting on this? and how did it come together? >> well, like a lot of reporters, you hear things all the time. and i've probably been gathering string, as they say, on this for some time. but it just came together recently. i've been interested since 2015, actually, as i think you've been in the president's attitude toward military service.

like a lot of people, i thought when he disparaged john mccain in 2015, i thought, wrongly, that that would be the end of his campaign and of donald trump's campaign because the one previous rule in american politics is you don't mock war heros. and so i just found his -- i just found his general attitude towards service very novel. and so i've been listening for several years to people talk about it. >> we said yesterday, jeffrey, we showed a military times poll that showed for the first time in some time, even though only 16% of active duty military were democratic, that plurality supported joe biden over donald trump. there has been this great

friction between military leaders and the are the for some time and you've certainly noted it in your conversations in the past and your interviews in the past with former defense secretary james mattis. obviously we have heard general kelly at times also sxret those concerns as well as admin ral mullins and so many other military leaders. and you get the sense, for everybody that's ever worked in the pentagon or worked with the pentagon or worked around the pentagon, it's stories like these do not contain themselves inside one office or one wing of that pentagon. it is understood throughout the culture, right? >> right. well, i would say that there is general sort of shock and disbelief that someone -- it's not even that the person would articulate views that way.

i think there's genuine curiosity about why a person would ever think that way or how a person comes to those thoughts. it's so irregular in a country that values veterans, that values military service in particular. so there's just a general kind of confusion, even more than anger. like disbelief, i would say, in a lot of circles. and you've heard people in those same circles talk about it. and it was just a task to try to bring this down to concrete details. >> jeffrey also reports on president trump's 2017 memorial day visit to arlington national cemetery, during which he was accompanied by then secretary of homeland security john kelly. according to the magazine, trump

was meant to join john kelly in paying respects at his son's grave and to comfort the families of other fallen service members. but according to sources with knowledge of this visit, trump turned to mr. kelly and said, i don't get it. what was in it for them? >> kelly, who de-chinaed to comment for this story, said trump was making a ham handed reference to the selflessness of america's all volunteer force. but later, he came to realize that trump simply does not understand nontransactional life choices. in another example of what jeffrey calls mr. trump's material-focused world view, he writes, the president believes nothing is worth doing without the promise of monetary payback and that talented people who don't pursue riches are losers.

according to eyewitnesss, after a white house briefing given by the then chairman joint he chiefs of staff general joe dunford, trump turned to aides and said that guy is smart. why did he join the military? >> so this gets to that underlying question, yes, people reading these quotes will be shocked, even though they -- many believes that they had already seen the low point of donald trump's mind-set, of his attitude towards america. but people will read it and, of course, be shocked. but you said as you began putting this story together that you were curious what would make somebody this way. and it does -- it steams like your conclusion is that, as we always say about donald trump's foreign policy, follow the money

if you want to understand why he's close to some countries and not close to others. it has to do with his own personal finances. in this case, though, you say his attitude toward the military also has to do with his financial view of the world. he can't understand why anybody would sacrifice for their country. >> i think he's geniusuinely confused by service. i really do. if people had come to me and said the president said xy and z about military service, about different factors of the military, you know, i would find it very hard to believe. but i do think that these comments are in line with a general and publicly stated outlook about the importance of material gain, the importance of not being a loser. it's interesting, if you look at his language through the years, the world is a very, very stark

binary for the president. there are losers and winners and you don't want to get caught on the wrong side of that line. and he looks at people who choose service over compensation or dangerous service in particular, the idea that you would willingly -- i think the volunteer force in particular kind of confuses him. because why would you ever possibly put your life at risk for, you know, a salary of $64,000 -- it doesn't make any sense is my point. and that comes out at this kind of i don't get it, what is in it for them, which is the thing that he said to general kelly at the grave site of his son. >> there is also -- jeffrey is cutting out. we'll get back to him in one second. but micah, there is a portion of the story where jeffrey reports

from sources close to the trump family, i think mary trump, in fact, had written about it in her book that when don jr. had decided to go into the military, donald trump threatened to disown him if he did. up next, more revelations from jeffrey goldberg's reporting, including the president's atangs against the physical appearance of wounded war veterans. you're watching morning joe. we will be right back. you're watching morning joe. we will be right back. dark lows. and, can leave you feeling extremely sad and disinterested. overwhelmed by bipolar depression? ask about vraylar. not all types of depression should be treated the same. vraylar effectively helps relieve all symptoms of bipolar depression... with just one pill, once a day. elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis

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jeffrey describes president trump's staging military parades, but only of a certain sort. in a 2018 white house planning meeting for such an event, trump asked his staff not to include wounded veterans on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable. in the presence of amputees. nobody wants to see that, you

said. and as we said, the new report also notes president trump's continued fixation on the late senator john mccain. one of the few prominent republicans to continue criticizing him after he won the nomination. quoting from jeff's piece, when mccain died in august of 2018, trump told his senior staff, according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event, we're on not going to support that loser's funeral. and he became furious when he saw flags lowered to half-staff. what the "f" are we doing that for? guy was an f'ing loser. the president was not invited to mccain's funeral. >> and, of course, jeffrey, one of the many great ironies of the trump administration, of trump's political rise is the very people who voted to make john mccain their nominee in 2008, the very people who have spent

the last 50 years since the vietnam war claim to go be the ones that uphe held the dignity of fighting men and women, be it in vietnam or iraq or in afghanistan or in iraq yet again have been republicans, have been many of the same people who are now supporting donald trump, many of the same people who are supporting a man who supported, again, according to very good sources, four, not one or two but four sources, are supporting a man who consider our war heros and even men and women who serve in the military as suckers and losers. what are your thoughts? >> the thing here is this is not surprising. i go back to 2015.

go back to 2015. he disparaged john mccain's war record. john mccain, a previous republican nominee for president, by the way, great vietnam war hero. he disparaged john mccain in ways that no one has ever heard of a national leader disparage a p.o.w. so there's nothing new under the sun in a kind of way. maybe i'm not considering the shock that has much of these particular words that i reported yet, but the republican party, the voters who voted for donald trump knew full well this attitude towards john mccain as a p.o.w. and as a war hero. this is part of a continuum. this is not some kind of break where all of a sudden we understand donald trump in a completely new way. coming up, breaking news on the economy. the august jobs report is due out moments from now. we'll have all the details.

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i had an opportunity to spend some time with jacob on the phone. he talked about how nothing was going to defeat him. how whether he walked again or not, he was not going to give up. and what i came away with was the overwhelming sense of resilience and optimism that they have about a kind of response to get in here. his mom talked about -- we asked -- my wife asked to say a prayer and his mom said a prior. but she said i'm praying for jacob, but i'm praying for the policemen, as well. i'm praying that things change. >> let's get something straight here. protesting is protesting.

my buddy, john lewis used to say. but none of it justifies looting, burning or anything else. so regardless of how angry you are, if you loot or you burn, you should be held as accountability as anyone who does anyone else, period. it cannot be tolerated across the board. >> joe biden speaking yesterday in kenosha, wisconsin, again, talking about his private meeting with jacob blake's family. joining us now host of "the readout, joy read, her book, the man who sold america, is now out in paper back. thank you for being on. >> thank you. >> what a stark visit between trump's visit to kenosha and

biden's. biden was able to visually show what trump lacks. >> it's almost jarring at this point to see somebody behavior the way a normal president behaves. we're so in the used to it after what donald trump has been doing, serving up this constant reality show, the can't range, the constant agitation, did way we're all so agitated at the time. biden's demeanor, here is somebody who prayed with the family, who actually spoke with the victim, who actually showed concern, who actually cared about them as human beings, who kept that meeting private, didn't have cameras in there. can you imagine donald trump trying to have such a meeting? even if you wouhe would bother with the family, it would have been all on camera and staged

the way he staged the part at his convention. everything is show and it's all show for a tiny audience of really angry, still angry even though they have the white house and have power people who can't get over this rage that donald trump ran on. so i think biden did himself a lot of good just with his demeanor and with his calm. >> and in looking at the reporting out of "the atlantic" and jeffrey gold bergberg's repf the things trump said, what struck me is that it all, yeah, not only was it corroborated with four people with direct knowledge of the actual comments, but it fits into everything we've seen. and at times at the beginning of his presidency, maybe we were sort of blurred into thinking

he's slightly joking. he's not joking about anything. everything he says, he means, and then he just lies about it. but there's something about these reports that came out this morning that feel to me like a dipping point. like how can you be a patriot and not speak out against what trump is quoted as saying? >> right. i mean, he's -- you know, we've heard him. there is tape of him going after john mccain. he's done that consistently. kazier khan's family, this gold star military family who lost their son. there was the black soldier who was in florida who when he did make a call, he couldn't say anything personal to them. he sort of bragged about himself and they felt disparaged by the phone call. it's consistent, right? the way that he's treated the united states military as if they are just props, he used them again as props during the

convention so that they would, you know, unwittingly be put into basically these music videos that he makes for himself just to show himself looking strong. you have the stories that he wanted his inaugural to look like a north korean parade. the way he used the military against the american people so he could take a photo-op with an upside down bible, a bible i doubt he's ever opened or read. mya angelo says when someone tells you who they are, believe them. we both talked with mary trump. mary trump was very clear in her excellent book that downtown's father had great disrespect for the military. he thought military servicedom was loserdom. he got enraged that mary trump's dad, who is the only trump that

we can find, any historian has found ever, who ever even did any military service, he did national guard service and the father was enraged. donald trump himself reportedly threatened his own son that if he got into the military, he would disown him. donald trump has never respected the military. it's not like he's hidden it. it's just open now. so these quotes were jarring. i've read that atlantic report now twice. my brother did his basic training at ft. dix. i can't show a photo of it. my aunt appropriated it and she has it on the mantle in her home because she's so proud that he did that. when my mother passed away, she got half custody and there was a great nigerian family in other neighborhood who took care of him while he was in denver. he was 12 years old. that family sent both of their children into the military. one into the naval service and

one to west point. so if you've ever known anyone who has been in the military, you know, we held our breath when the iraq war happened hoping these kids we grew up with wouldn't wind up dead. and if they had, would they be losers to donald trump? is that being auto loser? that is serving your country. and it's cheer from even the way his kids talk that they've already been taught that the only thing that matters is that you make a lot of money and if you're not doing something to make money, you're a loser. that is how donald trump thinks. he's told us that for four years so we know it's true. >> well, this morning, the veterans group vote vets is out with a rapid response to that bombshell atlantic story. let's take a look. ♪ >> my stepson was not a loser. >> my son is not a loser.

>> my son, matthew, is not a loser. >> my stepson was not a sucker. >> lance corporal alexander scott arredondo died in 2004. >> my son, sergeant james anthony ayube ie gave his life in kandahar, afghanistan, in 2010. [ speaking foreign language ] >> honorably serving his country. >> that is something donald trump will never know. >> that's something that donald trump will never understand. >> my missage to donald trump is this. you have no right being the commander xh chief. >>. [ speaking foreign language ] [ speaking foreign language ] [ speaking foreign language ] [ speaking foreign language ]in. [ speaking foreign language ] c. [ speaking foreign language ] >> catty kay, these americans who lost their family members, the way that trump is quoted,

the things that he has said, it's not only un-american, it's not only completely bereft of patriotism, but at what point is he not fit to lead? i can't imagine standing by and watching this come out of the president of the united states' mouth. >> yeah. i think it -- it's so -- it's going to be so interesting to watch what kind of reaction we get, if any, from some of the senior generals who have served donald trump. it took general millie's involvement in the incident in lafayette square for james mattis to come out, finally, and say something in public. and i wondered like you whether this is another watershed moment, whether we're now going to get a bunch more of those

senior military generals come out and say something. joy, do you think just in terms of cold, hard politics? if they come out, that does change the equation somewhat or do you think this article comes out, everybody says oh, my god, re is no change with it? >> yeah. i think for donald trump's base, there is literally nothing you could do or say that would move them away from him. for whatever reason. it is a cultive personality. i think on the margins, there may be some, but i think it makes a difference because i think for people who are wavering, who are saying, well, there are one or two policies i like. i'm not sure what i want to do. and there's very few of those people left. but every vote matters in a situation where one side is

trying to wreck the election and telling people to vote twice that anything that moves on the margins i think matters. i would like to see some of those people who witness this come forward. this is the time if you're ever going to show the courage that mary trump did. mary trump's side of the family was threatened by having all of their money taken away by donald trump, by her own uncle. she finally said enough and came forward. i think she was very brave to do that knowing how that family is. this is a time to be brave. i think some of these people who witnessed this, they know the quotes are accurate. it would be a great time to go ahead and come forward and be on the record. if you're going to fight autocracy, you can't do it in secret. and we are on the brink. every person that is an expert in autocratic regimes understands we are on the brink of losing our democracy. for god sakes, if you know something, say something.

this is the time to be brave. say something. that would be much more powerful than allowing these unnamed quotes to stand. >> joy reid, thank you very much. we'll see you at 7:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. and her book, the man who sold america. and we have breaking news on the economy as the august jobs report rossed just moments ago. 1.4 million jobs were added in the month of august and the unemployment rate dropped to 8.4%. let's bring in "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner. steve, what does this tell us? >> what this tells us is that the economy is still recovering, but quite slowly. so the good news is that we did add 1.4 million jobs.

the bad news is that we added fewer jobs than we did the previous month and way fewer jobs than we did the month before that. so the pace of job recoveries is much slower. so we're in this sort of glass half full, glass half empty scenario both politically and economically. it's getting better. but even at 8.4% unemployment, we're still in very difficult conditions, about as bad as it was in the great financial crisis. and i think many of us worry that this economic recovery could stall out along the way here as we see more and more layoffs coming from big companies because the government aid is not there and because people are still saying in mays more than they used to. >> how many companies are going to go back to business as usual now that they've found new ways of doing business that include a lot less of the middleman in between, whether it be the commute in or the flights or the

trains or the brick and mortar? there's that on top of the fact that a lot of small businesses have been dis-maysed. just visiting recently one of my kids trying to find a dry-cleaner, trying to find -- everything is shut down. they're shut, they've left, don't know where they've gone. what do you foresee ahead for the economy for those who have been completely taken off the map because of the coronavirus? >> this is the problem been meet ka, that while many people are coming back to work, more and more people who are not at work are reporting they're now on permanent layoff. which doesn't mean they can never be rehired. it simply means the idea that this would be a quick v-shaped things and people would come back to work seems to be going away. you have a whole set of sectors, travel, hospitality, entertainment that are either completely shut down or nearly

shut down and not coming back anytime soon. and so what we've seen happen and what i think we're looking at is a recovery where there was a bounceback, no question about it, after that initial partnership tuesday fall, but where we now seem to be leveling off or stalling out if you want to call it that significantly blow our potential, 10%, 15% below our potential which means another set of long-term economic challenges for the president in terms of the kinds of people you refers to who are simply at companies where they're going to do just the same or less but with fewer people or these whole sectors of the economy that simply have not come back yet. so the next president will face a huge set of challenges. there is only one more unemployment number between now and the election. and so donald trump will be running for re-election with an economic record that in the past has been very, very difficult for an uncouple bent president.

>> steve ratner, thank you very much. up next, an in-depth look at another link in the chain reaction of loss from the pandemic. hunger. the stories of american families struggleing with hunger in this wealthy 21st century nation. keep it right here on "morning joe." nation. keep it right here on "morning joe. this is decision tech.

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with so many americans unemployed right now across the country, millions are struggling to put food on the table. the usda says today more than 37 million americans are food insecure to find us a lack of consistent access to enough food for an active healthy life. that's nearly 1 in 8 households in america that simply do not have enough to eat. in houston alone, catholic charities were providing food to as many as 2,000 people every six hours.

the in, times magazine is out this morning with a special issue, an interactive online feature that documents three months in an american food crisis entitled america at hunger's edge. joining us now are the journalists behind the project. photo journalists and goingen hyme fellow brenda keniley who set out in an rv capturing americans as they struggled with food insecurity and journalist adrian kenelli whose worked office focused on the marginalized members of society. brenda, i want to ask about how you set about to get the pictures and to get the stories that you got across the country. and the process that it took to really sort of get the trust, to get people to be able to share

their stories because this is -- it's a difficult topic. and yet when you were able to really capture it on a wholistic level. >> hi. well, i think that people realized how important it was that they shared their stories. and i think for a moment the shame and moral forty taught of people has been sort of lifted. because in this country, we eat by our virtue. that is kind of the template. and there's been a lot of people that have been receiving food from food banks for decades, these food security support systems have existed, but now there's a reason to talk about it. so i think the shame has been lifted and i think that people are seeing rises prices, they're seeing scarcity and the families that are the most vulnerable, there's a hierarchy.

the families that are the most vulnerable, that's accelerated more so during this time. and now families that have been able to keep it together are sort of experiencing a leveled playing field because of covid. so people realize the importance. and i was very honest. a meal on the table. a meal on the table and i would photograph it and i was invited in. >> adrian, talk about -- i mean, you're looking at who is hungry, the different secondments of the population, whether it's a senior or very small children and how it impacts them. >> well, i think, you know, even in the 60s when there was a lot of advocacy was required for programs that were really a part of our national lives like the school breakfast program, the school lunch program were needed evidence that -- not just that kids were hungry, but why do we need to feed them when it

affected their development, their brain development, their capacity to thrive, really, and the same goes for seniors. and what is interesting to me about the populations that are most at rick, which are children and seniors, are there the two groups of people in the culture that for periods of time are not active members of the labor force. and it's interesting, there is a hidened dependency in those seasons of life and the nutritional issues are very serious in terms of health impacts. the distribution systems for those people, mainly schools for children, over 2.3 billion meals per year are served to kids in school. 78 kids get their primary nutritions at school, certainly working families depend greatly on those things and seniors get their -- some of their lunch and meals in senior citizen centers

and dhoifr system that's aelive all interconnected. lastly, the other thing that is very important is that so much of the food bank system is dpeft yand upon volunteers. you know, some -- over 50% of most of the people that work at food banks are volunteers, some up to 75% with meals on wheels, a lot of those people are donating their time. so it all became a perfect storm that revealed what brenda is saying, how long standing these issues are and how dependent we've become upon the supplemental supports. >> katty kay. >> brenda, the piece is great and the photos are incredible. one of the things that you've reported on and i think we've heard before anecdotally during this covid pandemic is a lot of

the people that are now turning up to food banks are people who were or would have considered themselves in the middle class of america and, you know, i think one woman tells you just because i have a volkswagen car that i have any reserves. and this has really exposed how people, even in the middle class, are living paycheck to paycheck with nothing to fall back on. how are those people dealing not just with the hunger but dealing with the stigma, the newness of having to find themselves in a position where they're having to ask for food? >> well, i mean, i think if you're hungry, the irish say hunger makes the best sauce, but i think if you're hungry and the food is available, you're going to put any price and, you know, feed yourself and your family. but what i have seen, and what i believe is that this is a problem that's just a symptom of the great wealth and income

disparity we have in the united states that is now paralleled and probably surpassed at this moment. i don't have the figures, the great depression. and i would say surpassed because the levels of what we consider wealth, that's definitely -- since that time. people that have been working, that have been experiencing a system that was largely operable for them are able to access the avenues of food and support in ways maybe that the generationally disenfranchised are not. and if you look at places like parma, ohio, where i see a picture flashing up on the screen right now, they have a nutrition specialist at their school. they have folks in place that are ready to receive the government packages of fresh vegetables that are distributed because of covid, and then i went to greenwood, mississippi,

which has historically been disinvested in and, you know, one generation and, in fact, people that were share croppers in their lifetime and they were getting spoiled food from walmart. so the care and the will that we have to feed certain people and certain populations while marginalizing others is still in effect but now we're seeing it in the ways that we're dealing with covid. >> brenda and adrian, thank you both very much. we'll be looking for the new feature online and in "the new york times" magazine. now to a new two-part documentary by hbo on russia's interference into the 2016 election. entitled "agents of chaos." here's a look. >> people like to think of the special counsel's office as a witch hunt. but this is just not a partisan

issue. our report has one key finding. clear, unequivocal efforts by the russian government to interfere with our election. the issue that goes to the core of our democracy is, are we doing everything we can to make sure that americans will decide who is running this country? >> and the film's director, academy ward winning director alex gibney joins us. the chaos we're talking about today now includes the reports from the atlantic magazine with jeffrey goldberg, unbelievably disparaging things this president has said about members of our military, those who have died, those who have been

injured. i don't know any patriot who would think that he is fit to be president. and with that as a backdrop, are you worried about the election and what the president and what it appears the attorney general is doing to not only sow chaos but to undermine the results, whatever they are? >> yes, i am. i'm extreme lly worried about t 2020 election and that was the dominant reason for doing this film. if you look back at 2016, some of the same playbook was in place, not only for what trump was doing. late in the game he was talking about how the election was going to be rigged. well, that was working in tandem with a russian cybercampaign to infiltrate all 50 states and attempt to undermine election data. so it's extremely concerning. as we get reports about the

attempts to, you know, clamp down on mail-in ballots and so forth and so on. it's all the same playbook, but reinvented for 2020. i'm extremely concerned about what's going to happen this election, and that's why, you know, the film -- we take a big look at how past is prologue. >> ckatty kay? >> i want to ask you how it's changed since 2016 and what's being done about it, if anything at all. i mean, the focus in 2016 was very much on kind of russian meddling through -- and then getting it all spread through social media and facebook. is that the same thing we're seeing this time around? and is anyone really trying to tackle this? >> i'm not sure that anyone really is trying to tackle it. i mean, the russian attack in 2016 was a three-pronged attack.

cyberintrusions to steal data. the clinton/podesta emails and dnc emails. it was cyberintrusions into election systems and also social media. there's a report by one of the women who -- that just came out this week by one of the women in the film all about how russians are now infiltrating facebook once again, creating fake accounts. and we can anticipate they'll also be involved in some of the election infrastructure. we haven't seen yet any of the intrusions into attempts to, you know, suck out data. but i'm sure that's coming. the concerning thing is a recent report that said the dni, the director of national intelligence is not going to give in-person briefings to congress about possible election meddling until the election. i mean, that's a terrifying idea. so it's this kind of game which is not a red phone to putin, but it's a harmonic seduction between the two agents of chaos that has really got me concerned

for this upcoming election. >> in an effort to reduce misinformation, facebook says it will block new political ads in the week leading up to election day. the social media giant says it will aim to strengthen measures against posts that try to dissuade people from voting. mark zuckerberg made the announcement through a post saying in part, we all have the responsibility to protect our democracy. that means helping people register and vote, clearing up confusion about how this election will work and taking steps to reduce the chances of violence and unrest. critics argue these new rules may already be too little, too late and say the misinformation and other toxic content flows freely outside of ads including in private facebook groups and in posts by users which the company's changes do not address. i mean, facebook, this is -- too little, too late.

this is pathetic. i mean, facebook basically is a place for all these lies and misinformation can promulgate and grow and then these ads can just disappear into thin air with no record of it so we can't even track. i mean, this is a joke. facebook is a huge part of this, is it not? >> yes, they are. but i think the most important thing to focus on is that the last go around, it was an attempt at voter suppression. that's what a lot of the back and forth on facebook was all about. persuading people to get so angry that they wouldn't vote. i think that's what we all need to focus on is attacking voter suppression and making sure that every american has the opportunity to vote this coming election. that's what's key here. i think it goes beyond facebook, but facebook is certainly part of the problem, and their solutions are, you know, pitiful, at best. >> all right. alex, the new documentary

"agents of chaos" debuts september 23rd exclusively on hbo. alex gibney, thank you very much. katty kay, final thoughts this morning? >> we have spoken a lot about chaos this morning and whether it helps donald trump or whether it doesn't help donald trump. i think alex has just laid it out for the more chaos there is here, we know there's one beneficiary. we know there's one person that likes it, and that person is sitting in the kremlin. >> yeah. i think for those who may know somebody or may have family members who can't really understand why many of us have very strong, concerning feelings about this president, read the atlantic this morning. read jeffrey goldberg's article. it is really a look into his soul, into his core, who he really is as a person. he's told us along the way, but i think this really boils it down in terms of who we are as a country, as americans, as

patriots. this president's quotes point to the fact that he is anything but. and there's no if, and or but about that. it is very clear that he is something very different, and what he is drawn to is very different than the core values of this country. and that's the choice in november, if we get it. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it's friday, september 4th. let's get smarter. right now, voting is officially under way as the first ballots are sent out in the state of north carolina. and as they are, the president is doubling down on telling americans to potentially commit a felony. here's what he told supporters in pennsylvania last night. >> what you have to do is send in your early ballot and then go and make sure that ballot is