hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. today, the country's commander in chief who sits atop the most skilled and revered military the world over has been revealed as loathing that military he commands. feeling personally disgusted by the wounds they suffer in combat. donald trump has been outed as someone who looks at a family like the one of his own former chief of staff john kelly who lost his son in combat at the age of 29 as losers. the scoop is painful to even read out loud but it came from respected journalist jeffrey goldberg of "the atlantic" magazine. we'll read to you from his bl k blockbuster account but we want to point out "the washington post" and the associated press have already matched huge chunks

of goldberg's reporting. here is some of goldberg's account. when president trump canceled a visit to the american cemetery near paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the last-minute decision, saying that the helicopter couldn't fly and that the secret service wouldn't drive him there. neither claim was true. trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain and because he did not believe it important to honor american war dead. that is according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. in a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, trump said, quote, why should i go to that cemetery? it's filled with losers. in a separate conversation on the same trip, trump referred to the more than 1800 marines who have lost their lives as, quote, suckers for getting killed. the american president calling those who serve and protect our country and our freedom losers and suckers is tragically where

we start today. over the next two hours, we will be joined here by pete buttigieg, who served his country in afghanistan, senator tammy duckworth who served her country in iraq and mark salter who worked with senator john mccain for two decades. but we begin with retired four-star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey. also tom nichols, writer for "the atlantic" and a professor at the u.s. naval war college. we should note he joins us here as a -- in his personal capacity, and peter baker, correspondent for "the new york times" and an msnbc political analyst. barry mccaffrey, to you first, my friend. >> well, i think it's heartbreaking. it's plausible. it matches the other kinds of statements he's made from making fun of gold star families to deriding senator mccain, an authentic american hero. it's combined with a level of

ignorance also of american history and our country that is astonishing. he allegedly asked general kelly or people in paris, why did the u.s. and world war ii come in on the side of the allies? he allegedly asked kelly at pearl harbor, tell me what happened here. i think the bottom line is 2.1 million men and women, active guard and reserve in our armed forces, they suffered 60,000 killed and wounded in the war on terror. he has no respect for somebody who serves out of patriotism or commitment to the american people. he doesn't understand it. he thinks he's got to buy people to do things. it's a disgraceful situation. >> general mccaffrey, there's a pile-up now of evidence of his disdain for the u.s. military.

phil rucker and carol linnic write in their book "a very stable genius" an incident that was designed as an intervention, a briefing for him, and he blew up at the most senior military commanders. it was after that briefing that soon to be ousted secretary of state called him a bleeping moron. general mattis, secretary mattis has come out and said that what he saw were tactics that sought to divide all americans that were reminiscent of the nazis. the comments about john mccain not being the kind of p.o.w. that he likes, but someone that was captured and, therefore, not a good american hero. i guess my question to you is, we're in this climate where 40% of the country doesn't believe anything written. the fact that three news organizations have accounted for all of these statements from the president and that the public facing words match what has been

reported in the story, where does that leave us considering the fact that, along with being president of the united states, he is the country's commander in chief? >> i think we're in trouble. really difficult situation. i assume biden will win. i hope he does. we need civility. we need respect for the rule of law. we need pragmatic thinking. but if biden is elected, it's going to take him four years to try and bring us back together. trump has inflamed this country. some of it was underlyingan taganism and racism, but a lot of it has been created by mr. trump who i think is a very fearful man. fearful of his own service in vietnam, but also fearful of others, of people who don't have mon money. so we're in great trouble. this is a genuine chasm of angry

people who look at this man of no character who lies all the time and in sort of a childish way and yet for a variety of reasons they say we've got to stick with this fellow. it's just confounding. >> tom, let me show you what joe biden had to say today. >> if these statements are true, the president should humbly apologize to every gold star mother and father and every blue star family he's denigrated. who the heck does he think he is? how do you feel? how would you feel if you had a kid in afghanistan right now? i'm always cautioned not to lose my temper. this may be as close as i've come in this campaign.

just a marker of how deeply president trump and i disagree about the role of the president of the united states of america. >> tom nichols. >> right off the top, that's a reminder that j being. he has normal reactions to things and normal emotions. he spoke for a lot of team with that level of anger because that's how a normal person would react to these kind of monstrous comments. to go back to something general mccaffrey said. it tells you about donald trump about the howling insecurity that must dog this man day in and day out that he feels the need to say such things when silence would suffice. he's not capable of being reverential. he's not capable of empathy.

he's not capable of silence. a simple respectful silence. and i think when you then watch somebody like vice president biden, it's a stunning reminder of, again, that the president is this deeply disordered human being and that joe biden is a perfectly normal human being who is much more like the rest of us who has the exact same reactions, the same concerns, the same worries about our people overseas, who is capable of seeing other human beings as people rather than props on a big set for his own amusement the way donald trump views everyone. >> this really is becoming a contest between someone that is seeking to dehumanize the 185,000 americans who have been killed by covid. he just pretends they don't exist. hasn't called any of their families that we know of.

doesn't sit or speak with them in their grief and someone whongs that someone who gets injured serving their country, that those injuries are disgusting. let me show you an ad put together overnight by vote vets. we'll talk about it on the other side. ♪ >> my stepson was not a loser. >> my son is not a loser. >> my son matthew is not a loser. >> my stepson was not a sucker. >> lance corporal alexander scott arredondo died in najaf, iraq, in 2004. >> my son sergeant james anthony ayube ii gave his life in kandahar, afghanistan, in 2010. [ speaking foreign language ] >> honorably serving his country. >> that is something donald

trump will never know. >> that's something that donald trump will never understand. >> my message to donald trump is this, you have no right being commander in chief. >> peter baker? >> well, i think that ad by a group that's historically not a supporter of trump's is one of the reasons you see his white house reacting to this trying to refute it because they see the danger in this 60 days out from the election. one of the core constituencies the president wants is the military community. a recent poll by military times said he's sliding behind joe biden in that, which is a real problem for any republican nominee. and this, obviously, would only hurt much more. he's reacted viscerally and strongly denied it. the trouble for him is that it seems consistent with a lot of

things he has done and said even in public. obviously the comments about senator mccain in 2015, the comments in phil rucker's book calling the generals dopes and babies. you know, he has made clear even in public. i know more about the war than the generals do. so it captures a larger tension going on with the military, i think, irrespective of name-calling over whether or not troops should be used in the streets to dispel protesters. whether or not the president should use his power of clemency for accused or convicted war criminals. whether or not army bases named for confederates should be renamed or not. just today, he reversed the pentagon on closing stars and stripes, a proposal he himself, his own administration had put forward, clearly seeing the political cost if he were to go forward with that. i think that ad encapsulates the political consequences of these reported charges, even as he's trying to deny them.

>> he denies everything and it usually means it's true, barry mccaffrey. here's "the washington post" reporting. "washington post" claiming that trump said u.s. soldiers injured and killed in war were losers. and one account the president told senior advisers they didn't understand why the u.s. government placed such value on finding soldiers missing in action because they had performed poorly and gotten caught and deserve what they got according to a person familiar with the discussion. >> it is almost impossible to understand this man. his words would indicate he has no soul, that he's almost a sociopath. he has no empathy. he has no respect for people in general. this abusive, denigrating people, name-calling, childish reaction. it's just astonishing. and it extends to the military. but i think the military is an unusual situation for all of us.

it's the most trusted institution in american society because our boys and girls in uniform write their parents and explain what they're up to. a life of service, of courage, of sacrifice. mr. trump doesn't understand that. he thinks if you don't get a buck, you shouldn't do something. but then the abusive portion goes beyond that. and the ignorance and the sort of volatility of this man's public discourse. this isn't just comments around the table. he'll walk out in public and call for torture of detainees under u.s. military control. calls for using the armed forces to suppress insurrection in the street when 90% of it is peaceful protest. again, i'm just appalled. we're in trouble. we need a respect for the rule

of law. we need a commitment to civility. we need to come back together as american people, and this guy is wrecking the country in my judgment. >> tom nichols, every time, including this time, that i watch those parents in that ad, it brings me to tears, not because of their political affiliation but because they had to utter those words. and i guess my question to you is on the abuse point that general mccaffrey is saying. he was abusive to the khan family. abusive. he was abusive. he retraumatized the widow of ladavid t. johnson. this was -- he died in niger and this was a botched call. donald trump fought with the widow of an american service woman for eight days and it culminated in john kelly having to go to the white house

briefing room and explain how an american soldier killed in afghanistan comes home. one of the ugliest and darkest chapters of the trump presidency. here's the widow of ladavid t. johnson describing how donald trump was to her on the phone. >> what he said was -- >> the president? >> yes, the president. he said he knew what he signed up for, but it hurts anyways. and that was -- it made me cry because i was very angry at the tone of his voice and how he said it. like he couldn't remember my husband's name. the only way he remembered my husband's name because he told me he had my husband report in front of him and that's when he actually said, ladavid. >> tom nichols, this retraumatizing of military families, regardless of their personal politics, is

unprecedential isn't strong enough. it's unpatriotic. it's un-american. >> it's monstrous. and it tells you something about him. he has to bring everything down to his level. he's not capable of feeling shame, but he knows somewhere in the back of his mind that when he talks to people like this, he is not measuring up, that he is not the man he tries to portray himself as. he knows when he's standing in arlington, standing among people who are better than him. and so his only hope is to try to command ascent from other people at that very uncomfortable anxiety-producing momenting a they're all suckers, right? your husband knew what he was getting into. and in partahi speaks that way to grieving people because he didn't see human beings as real people. everything in this kind of -- general mccaffrey said almost a sociopath. i don't think there's any almost about it. he's not capable of

comprehending the pain of other human beings. it is simply beyond him and that's an extraordinarily dangerous characteristic in a commander in chief. >> peter baker, i want to push you a little bit. did anyone who has never lied for the president said it wasn't true or was it press officials? >> that's a good question. listen, about six or eight or ten, i think, current or former administration officials did come out and say, no, this isn't true. some of them were at the time. some said it's not in keeping with his character. they had their names attached to their comments and remain loyal to the president. i talked to john bolton today. john bolton is not currently a fan of the president. wrote a book about him. said he's not fit to be commander in chief. he was there on that trip and said, no, that really was a weather call. he never heard the president say those words but he added something. that doesn't mean he didn't say it later and he didn't say it was out of character for the

president. nobody would say that's not the donald trump i know. so his point being that he didn't happen to witness the events as described in the article, but they do not seem out of character with the president that he served. what we have heard from other people who are not allowing us to use their names is this is in keeping with some of the things he said behind the scenes. he's said about people who went to vietnam that they were too dumb to get out of it, which, of course, he did through a diagnosis of bone spurs in his heels. he has said that -- expressed discomfort in appearing with people who are wounded or injured, although he has done those events. and so, you know, it's while people might dispute this or that particular story, there's a lot of people out there saying it's keeping with the kinds of things he'd said in the past. his denial of calling john mccain a loser fall by the wayside because we've steen on tape. he says i don't like losers and tweeted it out again later that day. that's the problem for the

president. he has a credibility issue here even when he denies things and when his own staff denies things. he has said so many other things that lend plausibility to reports like this. >> general barry mccaffrey, let me ask you what the building, the pentagon needs from the general public today. do they need to hear that donald trump might not think they're all heros but nobody in this country thinks anyone who served is a loser or sucker? what do military families need from the rest of us today that they can't and won't get from donald trump? >> i think the armed forces is autonomous. they're fighting for each other. they're fighting for the constitution, for their sergeant, the company commander. they don't really need much. and we've got to remind ourselves, we've got soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen in

harm's way right now. i do think the american families need some expression of support, though. the pentagon, it's a giant meritocracy. it's an engine that moves hundreds of thousands of people and tons of supplies. the pentagon is okay, but i think the families of people deployed or who are prepared to deploy need an expression of support from their neighbors. >> general barry mccaffrey, tom nichols, peter baker, thank you for starting us off on another surreal day in the trump presidency. when we come back, before he was a breakout candidate for president, now the full-fledged supporter of joe biden's, pete buttigieg volunteered to join the u.s. military and several several months in afghanistan. he joins us coming up. we'll ask him what he thinks of donald trump calling fallen troops suckers and losers. we'll also hear from longtime john mccain adviser and

collaborator mark salter. later, purple heart recipient tammy duckworth will join us as well. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. - [narrator] this is steve.

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most americans don't know what happens when we lose one of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines or coast guardsmen in combat. let me tell you what happens. their buddies wrap them up in whatever passes as a shroud, puts them on a helicapitopter a sends them home. their first stop along the way is when they are packed in ice, typically at the air head and

then they're flown to usually europe where they are then packed in ice again and flown to dover air force base. where dover takes care of the remains, embalms them, meticulously dresses them in their uniform with the medals that they've earned, the emblems of their service and then puts them on another airplane linked up with the casualty officer escort that takes them home. so that's the process. while that's happening, a casualty officer typically goes to the home very early in the morning and waits for the first lights to come on. and then he knocks on the door. typically, the mom and dad will answer. wife. and if there is a wife, this is happening in two different places. if the parents are divorced, three different places. and the casualty officer

proceeds to break the heart of a family member. and stays with that family until, well, for a long, long time, even after the interment. so that's what happens. >> i will never forget watching that happen live. those americans who come home the way john kelly just described there, are the ones that donald trump described as losers. john kelly's son was 29 when he died in combat. say what you will about john kelly's tenure as white house chief of staff. it's impossible to question his love for his son or the military for his country and for all military families. joining our conversation is former congressman from florida, david jolly. your reaction to what is described in this jeffrey goldberg article, what's been confirmed in the last few minutes by fox news, specifically, they have matched jeffrey goldberg's reporting on donald trump, not wanting to go to honor war dead in france

because he didn't want to mess up his hair, and he didn't want to honor american war dead. his hatred for john mccain and his general inability to understand why anybody would sacrifice for his or her country. >> it is, once again, a reminder that a minority of this nation, 46%, elevated a man to the presidency who is deeply unfit for office with remarkable moral failings who continues to demonstrate that he puts self ahead of country. a man who we are reminded has suggested he has never done anything that requires forgiveness of his deity. that he would never ask forgiveness of his god. and we are reminded again of his lies. this is a pattern of behavior. we know that he has lied about, for instance, the v.a. choice bill that was not part of his legacy. it was his predecessors. we know that he has lied bhs

support for military charities. that occurred during the '16 campaign. he lied to the american people about american casualties as a result of the iranian strike that was in retaliation to our killing of soulemani. aristotle said that men take on a particular quality by engaging in a pattern of particular behavior. this is donald trump. this is -- we know this. many of us knew this in 2016. we've been reminded of it almost daily for the last 3 1/2 years. and as people speak with voices of outrage today at what they red in "the atlantic," they'll have an opportunity to speak at the ballot box in november. and it's important that we do so. and i think the compelling moment we saw today was from joe biden. and i agree with tom nichols. joe biden simply demonstrated that he is a human with empathy and with compassion and, frankly, with the patriotism that donald trump does not have. and that contrast has been put

on display as a result of this atlantic story. and i hope it informs each voter when they go to the voting booth in november. >> well, and as i just said, fox news now has matched much of the reporting in the original "atlantic" article. let me read a little more about what donald trump is like, what he was like at arlington when he went with john kelly to the grave of his son. trump was meant to join john kelly in paying respects at his son's grave and to comfort the families of other fallen service members. according to sources with knowledge of this visit, trump while standing by robert kelly's grave, turned directly to his father and said, i don't get it. what was in it for them? kelly who declined to comment for this story initially believed people close to him said that trump was making a ham-handed reference to the selflessness of america's all-volunteer force but later came to realize that trump simply does not understand

nontransactional life choices. >> men and women go to war and fight not because of the enemy in front of them but because they love the country that they've left behind them. john kelly understands that, and his son understood that. and his son paid the ultimate sacrifice. john kelly bears that burden every single day. i know john kelly and, nicolle, i'm sure you do as well. one of the great conundrums is how he came to a point of serving this president, despite the flaws in the president's own patriotism. how he personally reconciled his journey, his american journey, john kelly's american journey, with serving this president, and then his decisions to remain silent when news like this breaks. but as we all ask for, where is kelly and where are mattis, it is notable that in their silence, they are not defending this president. because if their tenure with the president had been one in which this president deserved their defense, we'd hear it today, and

we haven't. >> david jolly is stakie in sti us for the hour. mayor pete buttigieg reacts to donald trump calling u.s. soldiers suckers and losers.

history says, fine jewellery for occasions. we say, forget occasions. fine jewellery for yourself. (snap) we're mejuri, the new luxury. i don't have a problem standing up to somebody who was working on season 7 of "celebrity apprentice" when i was packing my bags for afghanistan. at the end of the day it's not

about him. >> do you think he should have served in vietnam? >> well, i have a pretty dim view of his decision to use his privileged status to fake a disability in order to avoid serving in vietnam. >> he served in afghanistan so he would know. joining our conversation is former mayor of south bend, indiana, former presidential candidate, pete buttigieg. he's an afghanistan war veteran. the other -- i spoke to chasten at the beginning of the week so this is a perfect buttigieg week for me. i wish i was getting to talk to you under happier circumstances but just your reaction to a commander in chief, and i worked for a president whose policies were very controversial, put extraordinary strain on military families in this country, but behind closed doors, he couldn't spend time with military families and talk about military families without weeping with the power of emotion and pride

and just the joy and the gift that it was to get to be around them. and i understand president obama was deeply moved by his time with veterans and with active duty military. most presidents love when they get to travel to war zones to thank people and travel to bases and thank their families. it is so stunningly abnormal to loathe the military. if you are a president of this country. >> you know, the president finally said something that was true when he said i don't get it. he clearly doesn't. he doesn't understand what service is about. i mean, he's shown this long before he was president. he showed it when he avoided serving. and he has shown it ever since. but, still, even after all of the disrespect that he's shown for military, for prisoners of war, for gold star parents, i have to say, even though it's not a thousand percent surprising, there is something shocking about him just coming out and saying that he thinks those who serve are suckers and

losers. and i feel that reverberating among my friends who serve, and their family members. to say nothing of the pain that this causes for those who lost somebody. and a president who has this attitude about those who were captured should not be allowed within a one-mile radius of a p.o.w. flag because, obviously, he doesn't get it. >> can you tell me about some of those conversations with fami families or people who have served? >> the people i served with, most of them are things i probably can't repeat on television. there's a lot of swear words going around. but i mean, this is -- i'm struggling to find the words right now because this goes so deep. and it cuts across, by the way, any kind of political alignment. i mean, you don't have to be a democrat to think this is messed

up. for the person who -- with whom we trust our lives, as a whole country but especially those to show this kind of attitude. and yet, are we totally surprised? and what does it tell us that the generals who are around for this, who were his, you know, in the case of secretary matt, i his appointee, are silent right now. they, obviously, cannot stir themselves to defend this president. and that's a reminder about the kind of person who would be making life and death decisions for four more years if he gets re-elected. why we need somebody like joe biden who doesn't have to use his imagination to know what it feels like to have a loved one go off to war because his son served in iraq. >> i want to ask you about how you and joe biden and jill biden make this argument to the country. obviously, donald trump's failures around the coronavirus pandemic are so massive, so

undeniable. they stare all of us in the face as we look for a mask before we walk into a walmart or however we go about our lives. it's all impacted by his failures. but this would seem to change the calculation and require the biden campaign to be able to talk about just a failure to protect all of us, not just everyone at risk from the pandemic. but the men and women of the military, if they have a commander in chief who doesn't understand why we go look for people killed in action and wounded in action or prisoners of war, could be a threat to the military. >> absolutely. think about what this does to morale, but also think about what it means, a man who is in that situation. perhaps making decisions. we don't even know about concerning those who have been captured, actually harbors these attitudes. something we've known about for some time. this just brings it to a new low. so the conversation we need to have in particular is, when folks who may have just voted republican for their whole lives because that's what's normal in their community. and in particular, that's what

they have expected that military families would do. i think it's very revealing that even before these shocking revelations, news has come out that the president has lost the support of military members and their families. again, you don't have to be a die-hard democrat. we've got to be reaching out to everyone saying, maybe you voted republican your whole life, but, think of it this way. years from now if you are a rock red republican, years from now, when you're explaining these years to your grandkids, when they ask you, were you a john mccain kind of republican or were you a donald trump kind of republican? what side did you choose? and you can't be both. so that's why we see so many republicans, most recently governor snyder of michigan, just the latest in a chorus of republicans saying, this far, but no further. >> you know, i want to ask you about information flow.

i spoke to a former senior pentagon official today who said that esper is commonly referred to as secretary yesper in that building for being a complete sycophant to donald trump. in some ways, that put more pressure on general milley. but even in the moment, general milley either experienced enough pressure or didn't have the presence of mind to change out of fatigues that you might wear in a combat zone before walking alongside bill barr and donald trump and forcibly clearing protesters from lafayette square. so who would you have looked to if this had happened when you were serving? >> well, you know, whenever you go into a military installation, there are pictures on the wall of our chain of command. all the way up from executive officer, maybe lieutenant colonel all the way up through to the president. and when you put on the uniform in the first place, you trust

that that chain of command has your best interest at heart. but in the end, that chain of command rises to the level of the president. the president establishes a culture. establishes a tone. and we've seen exactly what that leads to. so, you know, frankly yes men are the only kind of appointees who can't survive in this administration. if you are anything else, you don't last very long. and that's not to the credit of the yes men. it's just the way things work. i will say this. it is to general milley's credit that he almost immediately realized that what happened in lafayette square was wrong. and made clear that the military should not be politicized. you see people like general mattis. i'm not sure folks understand if they're not familiar or haven't watched him over the years how it must have gone against every fiber of his being to denounce a president and yet he felt like it was his duty. and again, this is what we're seeing across the military, across the republican party.

places that have, you know, almost out of habit maybe, voted a certain way sometimes but, clearly, that's breaking apart because you just cannot defend what this president is doing or what he's saying. >> and it would seem to me that based on the things that donald trump says on a daily basis that there must be conversations in the military about what to do. not that there's an obvious role for them if there's a recount or confusion, but if a new president is inaugurated and he doesn't leave, i mean, it would seem that the military is under the kind of strains that you describe or general milley immediately realized the mistake of participating, of being photographed, and he made that video, apologizing. you're right. it was extraordinary. general mattis wrote an entire book and much to the chagrin of everyone involved in that process, refused to criticize donald trump and came out after lafayette square and described his tactics as so divisive.

they reminded him of the nazis. but it would seem that that is the tip of the iceberg. everything underneath is far more vast and far more troubling and consuming for that building. what would you surmise is going on there in terms of red teaming scenarios or just contemplating what the next four months could hold for them? >> first of all, i was relieved to see general milley and the command hiindicate that the military will have nothing to do with the election process. it's important we live in the sort of country where the military has nothing to do with politics. of course, the president is doing his damnedest to make that not true. but, you know, a lot depends on the integrity of those in uniform. that's the good news because those in uniform have a lot of integrity. one of the things they train us on from the beginning is you learn chain of command. you learn to follow orders. you also learn that you are to

follow lawful orders. it's even in the -- to those appointed over you. and when unlawful orders come and, you know, anything is possible under this president, but the integrity of the military is going to matter more than it ever has. >> mayor pete, we'd like to ask you to stay over while we take a quick break. when we come back, my colleague joy reid will join our conversation. don't go anywhere.

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when my son volunteered and joined the united states military as the attorney general and went to iraq for a year, won the bronze star and other commendations, he wasn't a sucker. the service men and women he served with, particularly those who did not come home, were not losers. if the article is true, and it appears to be, based on the things he said, it is absolutely damnable. >> the article has been confirmed, matched by none other than fox news. we're back with former mayor pete buttigieg. we're also joined by my friend and colleague joy reid, host of "the reidout." mayor pete, joy has a question for you. >> hi, mayor pete. how are you? so this story, i think, has shaken so many people that have any connection to the military or any sort of family

relationship with it. and i understand there's an honor code of people who have served that -- and there's a chain of command. but does it surprise you that somebody like general kelly isn't coming forward? does it surprise you that more people who were there isn't coming forward? does it surprise you that more people that were there aren't going on the record? >> shaken is the right word. it hits to the core. if you have ever been to section 60 at arlington to pay respects to people who were there with you and didn't make it back and heard what he said standing there, it goes to your core. i will say this. especially when you consider how deeply engrained that tradition, that code of staying out of politics is, for general kelly who was not only a general, but an appointee in the trump white

house, for him to be silent, that says a whole lot. >> think about it. for your own former chief of staff not to rally to your defense if this were untrue? we know that it's true. >> i also understand that even now there is a deep seated incident. something else for those who may have been privy to this kind of talk, especially if they are not appointees, they are probably looking at colonel inman, someone who spoke the truth and watched him lose his military career because he spoke the truth. i wish more people would come forward on the record and join those who have come forward on the record about various abuses

of this administration. >> go ahead, joy. >> no, no, go ahead. >> i was going to follow up on her question. we haven't heard from republicans who i think think of themselves as standing with the military. i would bet my life that if this happened -- it's hard to say if this happened under any other president because it wouldn't. but if president owe bamd said anything like this, they would be lining up in front of the cameras to rebuke them. what do you think of this belief that men and women who sign up are losers and suckers.

>> it is one reason why so many republicans -- i have never seen so many republicans saying i am going to vote with your democratic candidate. or at rnc with so many candidates missing. this will eat them sooner or later. the longer they stay on it, the more they will have to answer. if you are a conservative and believe, much as those who were a conservative, watching this president's conduct and action and words blows up all of that. now there is a very simple choice. even if you are never going to leave the republican party, you want to be remembered as a donald trump republican or john mccain republican. >> just one other question,

mayor. you have stars and stripes being discarded. it has been around since the civil war. you have donald trump going after mail-in voting which will impact the military vote, people stationed overseas. you have the accumulation. bounties put on american troops and he still has said nothing, defending putin. my brother was in the army national guard. people are conservative in the military, but i wond he were is it too much and does donald trump wind up losing that base? >> there are a lot of people in the military saying the president has more consistently shown regard for vladimir putin than for me. if you have grown up in a family

associated with being republican, i understand why those habits are hard to shake. but as of right now, the era in which the national security vote was a vote, a lot of people will be deciding for themselves and deciding differently in november. >> i can't agree with you more about the national security voter. when national security is at issue in the final weeks and months of the campaign, it is who the people trust more. i can't imagine it would be donald trump. it has been a pleasure to talk with you. i hope you come back in the coming days and weeks. >> thanks for having me. great seeing you both. >> joy, my friend, let me ask you something about this week in the joe biden campaign.

while donald trump has this ability for blocking out the sun, joe biden has -- going back to school, hopes and dreams. he was saying kenosha -- i may have my week wrong. then today coming out with this strong rebuke of donald trump disparaging active duty military. >> it has been a strong offensive week for biden. all he has to be is stable and calm and normal.

even his sething rage today that he kept under control and said i am not going to get out of control because i feel like if i look at this medal made for my son, i may lose it for tv. that's how anybody would feel. that's what joe biden is so good at. he is just a normal guy. >> we can [ bleep ] tbleep the . you are the author of the stunning book "the man who sold america." i believe today is the first day you can pick up a paperback copy. if you already have it, buy yourselves a paperback copy. coming up, more on that blockbuster reporter from the atlantic. reaction from one of john mccain's closest advisers and

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i raised a million dollars for him. but he tlauft so i never liked him as much. he is a war hero because he was captured. i like people who weren't captured, i hate to tell you. >> it's 5:00 in the east.

the smears against john mccain for being a prisoner of war. a year long assault, and after a tragic death from cancer, we are learning that atlanta trump was enraged to lower the flags to honor his death. he has been denying that he ever called john mccain a loser. we watched him smear john mccain for years. here is how the private rage is described --

trump was not invited to mccain's funeral. we will be with john mccain's long time adviser, a true soul mate of john mccain. we have a white house reporter with us, and former state department official. luckily for us, they are all msnbc contributors. what reporter after reporter, observer after observer, military official after military official have said, that the public record proves that the private reporting is not only highly likely, but if it was anything else in private, he would be the first president in

history to say nasty things about military members in public and nice things in private. how goes the spin today. >> nicole, we have seen portions of the reporting have been confirmed at a number of outlets including fox news. we have seen fierce denials from the white house. it started last night in a coordinated pushback campaign from white house aides and then from the president himself on the tarmac last night. again today at the white house. the press secretary in her briefing, the one where she did not take questions. it is who they are offering denials from, not military

officers or members of the cabinet. we have not heard from chief of staff john kelly. none of them have come forward to say this isn't true. of course there has been a call from many to wish that they would come forward on the record one way or the other, in fact to confirm these stories, anecdotes. that hasn't happened yet. your point is true. it's the guiding principle. we have heard the president make marks like this before. it is consistent to what he said about senator mccain, what he said about the vietnam war, consistent to how he views a transactional foreign policy including military deployment, military engagement. he has never used america as an attempt to shine a light on

humanitarian issues around the world or fight for democracy or stand up for western values. we know he cozies up at times to dictators. it should be noted, the white house denials have been relatively narrow saying the cement ri visit, that it was bad weather, that it wasn't that the president was concerned about his hair. there has been no remarks about john kelly's son as he stood with john kelly at the national cemetery. >> if i can go out on a limb saying it's because they are all true. this is donald trump on 60

minutes. >> he was captured. does being captured make you a hero? i don't know, i am not sure. >> kim atkins, if he had said nice things about john mccain in private, it would be the first time. >> this is not the first time. we have seen this repeatedly over and over again. we have seen him attack john mccain, seen him attack gold star families. we have seen him repeatedly show the lack of respect for the military and military family. if you look at a lot of the news that has come out over the last four years -- four days or four weeks, there is a lack of empathy or understanding of others. after he secondly attacked the

kahns, there was an interview with donald trump, and he was asked what sacrifices he had made in his life. he responded with real estate business, jobs. he heard sacrifice as to what can i brag about. he doesn't understand what it means to sacrifice yourself or go fight on behalf of your country. he sees it as if there is not a political reward to be had for doing that, he thinks that's a mistake, that these people are losers or suckers. there is a through line throughout on the president reporting. it is believable with everything we have seen with our own eyes.

>> you are familiar what happens when a scoop with massive implications breaks 60 days out from election. this is what "the washington post" expanded upon in the process of matching so much of goldberg reporter. >> that quote, anonymous or however it came to "the washington post" was essentially uttered out loud by the widow of david t. johnson who said that he told me he knew what my husband was getting into. i think it's a fool's errand we

have to corroborate jeffrey goldberg's reporting. other organizations are going about seeking to match it. what do you make of this picture of donald trump as possibly a threat to go out and look for wounded soldiers in action. >> i lost my call -- just a second. one thing i want to point out, and my colleagues understand this. people are saying why isn't john kelly -- jeffrey -- >> rick, we are going to fix your audio. i don't want to miss anything you are saying here. this is too important of a day.

if i can't hear it, i am guessing that some of our viewers can't listen. mark is the author of an upcoming book "the luckiest man" life with john mccain. mark, you don't do a lot of this. when i reached out to you last night i was shocked you agreed to come on. what was it about jeffrey's reporting that put you over the edge. >> jeff is a very good reporter with a reputation for honesty and fairness. to be candid, used to hearing trump insult john. it has happened so often it's almost tedious. i don't mean to make light of

it, but you eventually get used to it. even the memory of john pushes the insecurity of buttons trump has, and he can't contain himself. the immediate pushback on jeff is what sort of got me interested in talking about it because i know he's a very good reporter and discerning about his sources. and as everyone has discussed, it is not like it's surprise. trump has said this stuff. john always talked about sacrificing for a cause better than self interest. john can't comprehend that. there is nothing but self interest. why would you sacrifice it for anything but your bottom line. he doesn't understand the military or military culture.

even when he talked about mias that way. most pows were pilots whose planes were shot down and the remains were never recovered. they didn't get caught which he dispau disparag disparaged in 2015. they were shot down in the history of warfare. >> keep going. >> john took all of this in stride so i always tried to not get too worked up about it. he always thought it made trump look bad. he never felt wounded. it hurts his family, obviously. megan who is about to have a

baby, but his whiidow and daughters and sons, they don't like to hear this. but trump is who he is. he can't kpend beyond his own bottom line. mayor buttigieg said something, you can't be both because they are polar opposites. john made plenty of mistakes in his life and career, took positions maybe he shouldn't have. but he tried to make the country better. truch doesn't think about this country for one minute. the man who only i can fix it.

shirks his responsibilities, the most abysmal inept leadership in a public health crisis. i live in maine. businesses being shuttered up and down the coast. that's on him because he wouldn't step up as a national leader in an emergency. he just wants the credit for success if there ever is success. that's my rant. >> mark, if john were around when jeffrey goldberg broke this story and found his way on to morning joe. my thoughts is that he wouldn't engage on the insults, but he

would be deeply upset about saying to john kelly whose son died at 29. can i play his response on "morning joe" after that 2015 insult? >> does donald trump owe you an apology? >> i don't think so. but i think he mayo an apology to the families of those who have sacrificed in conflict and those who have undergone the prison experience in serving their country. i am in the arena, but in the case of many veterans, when mr. trump said he prefers to be with people who are not captured, the great honor of my life was to serve in the company

of heroes, but those of my senior officers, winner of a congression congressional medal of honor. those are the people i think he owes an apology to. >> mark, you and i worked together on his campaign in 2008. one of the things that made it difficult to go out there as a spokesperson, he didn't want people to defend him from anything, i am in the arena. he had that view. what drove him that he is literally the polar opposite where donald trump is a gluten for food, sex, money.

john mccain would order a cheese plate. john mccain didn't need the approval of someone like donald trump, didn't want it. but what do you think he would go out and say about the attacks on general kelly's son and sacrifice? can you hear us, mark? >> i can hear you now. >> can you hear me now? what would his response be to some of the broader indictments, refusing to go and offer world war one soldiers who died in france because he didn't want to mess up his hair. >> it's funny. it was good to see a tape of him again. just seems like he is still

here. when he would do devents like tha -- events like that, he was the most enthusiastic when he came back. he was such an exuberant personality. it was hugely important to him. he would go out and visit walter reed and visit with some of the wounded soldiers. he would come back and sob because he understood what their sacrifice was. he spent 5 1/2 years in prison, 2 in solitary. you don't do that for a country that is just a bunch of tribes or real estate. we have ideals that we believe are universal. that's why he took the position

he did on torture. that's why he had his position on a host of issues. to him there is no point in doing that, in serving something that isn't more noble than what donald trump concedes that to be, which is to promote himself or whatever he is in. trying to outrace his insecurities, whatever else that broken human being suffers. >> mark, don't go anywhere. we need to sneak in a break. we are going to bring in others and make sure your audio is okay and keep this conversation going. one man sobs after a trip to walter reed, and the other one tweeting all week about not having ministrokes which was

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my son was the first person to die in combat under donald trump. not from the situation room, but sitting across a dinner table from steve bannon. just donald trump going to war. >> when you lose a $75 million

airplane. -- >> that was an add from bill owens. the first u.s. soldier killed in combat during trump's presidency. ri rick, let me come back to you. on this clear picture of donald trump as someone who has failed. >> it's dangerous because i have had a chance to listen and think a little bit which we don't normally get. i heard all of the 4:00 people, too. i thought general mccaffery was eloquent talking about trump being a sociopath, a man with no

character. in reading that i felt like i went through seven stages of grief. not for the first time -- and i think everybody on the panel will understand this -- it seems almost impossible for someone to grow up in this country and have so little regard for american values for duty for our country. words he doesn't seem to understand at all. that's the big enigma about donald trump for all of us. yes, he is a sociopath, a narcissist, but he doesn't understand anything about this country. i am going to go to another point that is a darker point. many years ago sandra day o'connor said to me we are going to pay a terrible price in this country for having stopped

teaching civics 50 years ago. we are paying a terrible price. when i hear donald trump calling people captured suckers or losers, how many other americans think that? he has the right idea. those guys are suckers. that's what scares me going up to november 3. are people paying attention to this? is he tapping into something we don't understand? that's my worry and i would love to hear what people think about that. >> let me bring this over to you, jonathan. the acting director of the fbi thought there was probable cause to look at whether or not he was a russian agent, and days after

it was opened, the case was killed. and in peter's book, said that the counter intelligence case he opened was never pursued. there is an open question, questioned by career law enforcement of the fbi to investigate whether or not he was a russian agent. >> we have never been here before, nicole. that is clear. these traren't political attack by the unfriendly press. these were seasoned career pros who thought there was reason to look into this and wonder if the president did have some sort of ties and links to moscow. the way he has conducted foreign policy since has not silenced

those questions. it's a rare issue where fellow republicans have broken from him. it is certainly more than that. he has conducted this foreign policy. he likes to talk about the military a lot. he boasts about the support he has received from the armed forces and support he has received from them. he has taken credit for things done under the obama administration. we saw the poll earlier this week suggesting that joe biden was the one. the last day or so probably hasn't changed. that we are just two months from the election. the president is down. his team is striking a new

optimistic note. he can't afford to lose any sort of support particularly among the military. these comments will be damaging as they are rightly being condemned from both sides of the aisle. >> joe biden came out with a strong rebuke of donald trump's comments. the most passionate delivery in this week of pretty strong speeches that have the biden campaign, at least this woke, firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters., firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters., firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters., firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters.e, firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters.ek, firmly on offense, on the pandemic, on calling for the prosecution of looters. and then today on donald trump against the military. >> yes. he said heck at one point when

he was trying to restrain himself. when a reporter asked him why he was restraining himself, that maybe it is better to let america see how angry you are, joe biden talked about being presidential and how one is supposed to comport one's self. how he sees leadership should be in the oval office. how it is about being thoughtful in the use of your words as far as retweets on twitter. to have compassion and empathy for others, what it means to understand sacrifice. he came out strongly today on that message as somebody who has a son who served as well, talking about what that means.

the claim that was being made in 2004, even though it was discredited. just the idea of service, falsifying anything about your service or not being an honorable person serving in the military. it was so abhorrent, that damaged his campaign. four years of donald trump disparaging the military. the fallen military members he likes to support are confederate figures who are made statues. it's difficult to see how this is not really gutting to anybody who has a member of the military in their family. anybody who has lost someone in war. it's so devastating when you take a step back and look at it.

it gets lost in the new cycle. something like this i have to believe has a lasting impact on gold star families, particularly people who have loved ones serving overseas in places like afghanistan. it has to be difficult. >> i keep thinking about what john would say about the fact that the american president has had nothing to say about vladimir putin offering money on the heads of fighters by the taliban. what do you make of that? >> you are in and out a little bit here. >> what are your thoughts about what john would think about the fact that donald trump has not condemned vladimir putin's

bounties on soldiers. >> he can identify with putin. that's the kind of guy trump can get along with. people that make trump feel insecure, people who have values or principles, are in this business for something other than glory or a paycheck, that frightens him, such a whiny president. but putin, they are compatico. >> i am reading your book and i cry often as i do watching all of these ads from families of veterans.

please read it. thank you all for spending so much of this hour here. we will be joined by tamme duckworth. she lost both legs in iraq after the helicopter she was piloting was hit by iraqi insurgents. ir. really paid off this time. nah, just got lucky. so did the thompsons. that faulty wiring could've cost them a lot more than the mudroom. thankfully they bundled their motorcycle with their home and auto. they're protected 24/7. mm. what do you say? one more game of backgammon? [ chuckles ] not on your life. [ laughs ] ♪ when the lights go down [ laughs ] i'm a verizon engineer, and i'm part of the team building the most powerful 5g experience for america. it's 5g ultra wideband, and it's already available in parts of select cities. like los angeles and in new york city. and it's rolling out in cities around the country. with massive capacity,

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quite frankly, if what is written in the "atlantic" is

true, it's disgusting. it afirms what most of us believe to be true, that donald trump isn't fit to be commander in chief. you know in your heart, your gut, it's deplorable. >> that was former vice president joe biden this afternoon on the atlantic reporting. that donald trump has called pow ps suckers and losers. i am joined by tamme duckworth. she lost both her legs and use of an arm after a helicopter she was piloting was hit by

insurgents. >> you have made tweets and comments. tell me your reaction to this reporting. >> i wish i could say i was surprised, but i am not. the values are loyalty, duty, respect, integrity and personal courage. has anybody seen donald trump exhibit any of those values at all? no. in any situation, whether it has to do with the military or not. so i am not surprised he would say these things, but it is absolutely unacceptable in the commander in chief of the united states to say such things about the heroes who served in uniform. >> senator duckworth, one of the things most people find disturbing is -- they are denying the story, but it is more of an attack on the media.

but it is more donald trump's feelings. what would you say to military families reliving the pain of losing a dad, mom, brother or sister to hear the sitting commander in chief disparage their service. >> i tell them they have a choice when it comes to november 3 and they need to vote. they have safe guarded our liberty and values. i ask them to vote this coming november 3 and vote for someone they know will actually defend them. vote for a military family, the bide ens who know exactly what they are going through because they have gone through it. they have watched a loved one be deployed and wonder if he would make it home.

wonder if a missed phone call means he's hurt. they know because they are a military family. make your voice heard at the battle box. they have advocates in me and other senators and congress persons who recognize and value and honor their sacrifices for this nation. we will not stand by and let this president trample on all of the things they stand for. >> something i think about a lot is the war on the justice department and the intelligence community had some public facing elements. moseley donald trump was attacking rod rosenstein and likening them to nazis. there is some reporting about him going over to the pentagon for a briefing in the tank that

was designed to be an education, and he ended up calling them all babies, losers. do you think there is an aspect that he has tried to use them. we have heard donald trump refer to them as my generals. what has he done to the military we don't know about? >> he has gutted the military, driven down morale. that's why there was that poll earlier this week that shows for the first time this week, that members of the military will not be voting for donald trump. he has used then for political gain. this is something no president has ever done and it's not supposed to be done. the military is one of the last institutions in the country

people respect because they are not political. for them him to use them in thi, that's not what the military is for. they are sworn to their deaths they would defend this nation and security. people may never know their names, but we need to be there to support them at the v.a. and that when they suffer wounds, they are cared for. this is the president who said men and women in the military who suffered brain injuries after the bomb incident last year, that those are not injuries, they are headaches. it's a shame we have a commander in chief like that. >> do you think we don't look for men and women missing in

action is a waste of time, does it endanger the military? >> it very much does. if you cared about nothing else, cared about the values and for d warriorse warriors eat those. i would never leave a comrade behind. they need to know their buddies will get them out of there. when i was wounded my crew thought i was dead. i never got a tourniquet, but they risked their lives to get me to that rescue craft. only then did they realize i was alive. it's because men and women stand up for the values that we have

sworn to defend. we are the greatest fighting military on earth. if you break down those values, then people will think twice about signing up for service. people will think twice about taking on that mission because they won't know whether or not they will get left behind. the american military leaves no one behind. that's why we are the most powerful military on earth. the coward in the white house, the commander in chief, doesn't deserve this great military. >> senator duckworth you have taken my breath away with that description of your own rescue. thank you for your service and for being willing to talk about it with us. thank you. coming up for us, a dire knnew

projection about the pandemic which donald trump doesn't want to talk about. 't want to talk about. real progress?

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find a stock basedtech. on your interests usaa insurance is made the way liz and mike need it- or what's trending. get real-time insights in your customized view of the market. it's smarter trading technology for smarter trading decisions. fidelity. i do think there is a possibility that the clinical trials, albeit very low, extremely low, but there is a possibility that the trials read out before the end of october. it would be irresponsible not to be ready if that was the case. >> so that was the top adviser of donald trump's operation warp speed telling npr that vaccine trials are unlikely to be ready

by election day. despite the cdc directing states to prepare for such a deadline. this comes as the university of washington's institute for health metrics and evaluation projects the current u.s. death toll could more than double to over 400,000 by january 1st. that would mean that more than 222,000 additional americans would lose their lives in the coming months. joining the conversation is infectious disease physician, jonathan and rick are all -- no. we've lost them. it is just the doctor. i see these projections and i remember the very first one when dr. birx was in the rose garden with donald trump and i asked folks like yourself, how are we to process the possibility that 80,000 to 100,000 americans could die? of course, we're now well beyond that at more than 185,000 americans. is it really possible that 400,000 americans, that we could

lose more than twice what we've already lost? >> well, there is a little discussion in the world of epidemiology over whether or not that will be the exact number or could it be slightly lower. the thing that i always go by, is that models like that give you a sense of a trend. certainly the trend is worrisome. certainly the trend looks like, what they're basing it on is that in certain geographical areas you've seen decrease in use of masks. what doesn't help is that now you have these mixed messages from the administration such as the new adviser saying we only need to protect people who might get seriously sick rather than saying, actually those people who might be seriously sick may live with people who might. so we need to protect all of our community. the mixed message is that it is fall and people are moving indoors which might then induce a greater amount of

transmission. all of those are risk factors that might and likely are increase the number of hospitalizations and deaths that we see in coming months. >> where is this vaccine science? we know what the public pronouncements are. donald trump promising something by the end of the year. the cdc telling states to be ready two days before election day, really suspicious timing. but the trials don't sound like even in the best case scenario they'll be done anywhere near those days. >> that's right. and you quoted the doctor but dr. fauci has said the same thing. that it is extremely unlikely we'll get a result by the end of october. you often hear, you can do it fast or you can do it right. in this scenario we have to do it fast but it is so important that we do it right. partly because a couple of the leading candidates, as a reminder for the public, we've never had a widespread use of

the vaccine even after we get a signal whether or not it worked, we need to continue to follow to get a fuller picture about safety. and the reason why both of those leading scientists said it is up likely that we'll meet that end of october, beginning of november deadline, is because most of these companies are about halfway through their enrollment. they have a second booster. so that means people are coming in at the end of october, mid-october to get the second booster. it is highly unlikely they will get the kind of signal in terms of protection from the vaccine. yet the fda's vaccines and related biological advisory committee has a meeting scheduled for august 22nd. to help evaluate whether or not there's that data. i'm with you. i think setting a deadline, we need to prepare. i'm with cdc on this. we need to prepare. the last mile of this, the distribution, infrastructure will be so important that setting the deadline at such an unrealistic time scale right before the election, once again,

politicizes the entire process and people like me who are on the front line who have to convince patients, who have to care for my fellow physicians who might be receiving the vaccine, i might be receiving it myself, will have to look at the data and make a convincing case for all those groups. >> we will be calling on you whenever that process moves forward. finally, as we do every day, remembering lives well lived. not long after she lost her only son to the coronavirus, claudette carson was having a conversation with her grand daughter. my papa is in the sky, the 5-year-old told her. my daddy is in the sky and he told me to be good. claudette hadn't known until that moment that in her son's final days, his final hours, he'd called his daughter to say goodbye and to tell her to look for him in the sky. a final message from a

29-year-old described as a teddy bear. a caring, general giant. juan was a popular barber around town and he had just gotten married in february. he and his beautiful wife were planning to get a house together when he came down with a fever of 103. nine days later, he was gone. his mom told news 19 in south carolina that she's numb. that there is a hole in her heart. claudette, we're thinking about you this weekend and your 5-year-old granddaughter. we hope she knows if she ever misses her dad, all she needs to do is follow his last bit of advice. just look up. that's where he is. we will be right back. where hes we will be right back. (vo) verizon knows how to build unlimited right. start with america's most awarded network. i'm on my phone 24/7. (vo) then, for the first time ever, include disney+, hulu, and espn+. we're a big soccer family. "handmaid's tale." i love "frozen." (vo) then give families plans to mix and match so you only pay for what you need.

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nypd thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" starts right now. ari, what a day! >> incredible news day which we say all too often around here. i home you have a good well deserved restful weekend. >> you too. we'll be watching. >> thank you. president trump as we are alluding to getting absolutely slammed from all sides. a shocking report by any standard revealing according to multiple sources direct disparagement of the military veterans that serve america, that keep him and us safe. sources say in the atlantic, the president refused to visit a military cement in france over worry that the