good evening. i'm steve kornacki at msnbc headquarters in new york. and we are now 57 days away from election day. president trump and joe biden are now at the most crucial stage of this campaign. they are focusing their attacks on a number of issues including the economy on this labor day weekend. the latest jobs report shows that more than 1.3 million jobs were gained with the unemployment rate now at 8.4%. that is considerably higher than where it was before the coronavirus took hold, but it's also down from its pandemic peak of nearly 15% back in april.

the nation is still down more than 11 million jobs since february. and today the president argued that his re-election would hasten recovery. >> and 2021 we'll create 10 million jobs at least in the first ten months. joe biden, the radical socialist democrats, would immediately collapse the economy. if joe biden becomes president, china will own the united states. china is spending the money we give them to build up their military. we lose billions of dollars and if we didn't do business with them, we wouldn't lose billions of dollars. >> thee months ago in bedminster i asked why you have not called democratic line to the white house to meet with them. if they don't want to meet with you, it's on them. >> let me just tell you. i know my customers, that's what i do. i know pelosi. i know schumer very well. they don't want to make a deal because they know that's good for the economy. and if they make a deal that's good for the economy and

therefore it's good for me for the election november 3rd. >> former vice president biden slammed trump's handling of the economic fallout from the coronavirus in the negotiations for another relief package. >> he has been spending too much time in his golf courses and his sand traps. i can't think of any president in the middle of a crisis like this and there's been other crises both foreign and domestic that has not called in the leadership of the republican and democratic parties to the white house, to the oval office to sit and work out an agreement. but there's no desire to work out an agreement here. he's not even had a meeting with them. >> and the "associated press" is reporting it's increasingly unlikely there will be a quick revival of talks to craft another coronavirus relief bill when congress returns. meanwhile, "politico" reports the nation is headed toward a two-track recovery with a growing economic divide that could, quote, fuel social unrest

and extend any economic recession and also have damaging implications for president trump's re-election bid. here for our lead-off discussion, jonathan allen, the senior white house reporter for nbc news digital, and jason johnson, veteran journalist and contributor and a professor at morgan state university. thanks to all of you for being with us. shannon, let me start with you because until february or so of this year, the expectation not just around trump but around everybody in politics was the economy was going to be the central message of a trump re-election campaign. and i look at the polling right now. we just went through it. the polling overall is not a pretty picture for the president at this point. but he still gets his highest marks on the economy and he still, the margins aren't huge, but he still tends to outpace biden when it comes to the question of who better to handle the economy. how he plans to handle this issue in the final two months of

this campaign, what message is he trying to take to voters here amidst all of the statistics we just went through? >> yeah. i think that's a really important thing to pick up on. because there has been this huge focus on crime, the tens of millions of dollars spent to elevate crime and law and order and safety as an issue in this election, it featured really prominently in the republican convention. when you dig down into those poll numbers you were talking about, it didn't really move the needle on where people are about crime. maybe it ticked up a little bit as an issue. but the economy and coronavirus remain the driving issues of this election despite all the efforts by the president to elevate crime otherwise. i was talking to someone close to the campaign at the end of the last week about this, and they said the exact thing you were saying that it is going to come back down to the economy just like they always thought it would. and to listen and look for more of a message coming from trump

and the campaign on the economy. now, this press conference the president had today was initially supposed to be about the economy. it was a labor day event. you know, they were pegging on the economy. the president talked about that a little bit. but there's so many other things that overshadow their economic message because of the president's own message himself. and you cited some of those things how this spiralled into ukraine and china and attacking biden and calling him stupid. that just detracted from this economic message. as much as the campaign, like they have for years now, has wanted this election to be about the economy, the president's message continues to diverge from that. and we're obviously running out of time where they can really settle on a consistent message. >> yeah. john, i'm curious what your sense is of how the biden campaign is looking at this. because when you go through the polling, again, it does look like the biggest potential vulnerability biden has that to the extent the electorate is

focusing on the economy, that's where trump when you poll all these issues stacks up best against him. is your sense when you look at the biden campaign that they are thinking the economy could end up playing a bigger role in this campaign if they have a way of countering that advantage the president has right now? or do you get a sense that they're confident, as shannon's saying there's so much else out there, not the least of which is the coronavirus. the economy is not going to reach that central role we expected it would? >> i mean, the truth is that the two things are completely related. it's the argument that the biden team is trying to make that the economy's never really going to get back on track unless you get the coronavirus under control, that the economy is in the shape that it's in, in large part, because the president was unable to get the coronavirus contained quickly early in the spring. you can almost hear the debate among democrats about how do we handle this, how do we figure out how to go after what is

trump's strength right now, the one thing that he's really competitive, as you point out, competitive with joe biden on, is the economy. and it is the issue that voter after voter tells pollsters that they still see some strength for the president on. it's the one area where his handling is competitive with biden. so, if the democrats could figure out how to borrow from the karate kid, if the democrats could figure out how to sweep his leg on that issue, this campaign would be over. but it has been for him very stubbornly strong. and i think that the one thing he has done a very good job over the last four years of is talk about how he built up a economy before march, before the coronavirus, and he has continued even through his twitter estpaids to drive that message home. >> jason, one thing we were talking about last hour is the trump campaign telling us they want to focus so much on this idea of law and order, telling

us wisconsin, that's the state of states when you look at where that would positively help their campaign. the numbers right now not showing that, and so the question is raised will they alter their message, will they downplay it? will there be some sort of strategic response to what the polling is telling us? i want to flip that question around and ask you about it. what we're seeing in terms of the public's response in a state like wisconsin to the trump campaign's emphasis on law and order. what we're seeing right now, is that going to affect how the democratic ticket talks and strategizes and what issues they tend to emphasis in this campaign? >> steve, it already has. you had the biden/harris campaign talk about how they were listening, how they were concerned about these issues. but let's be honest, the trump campaign doesn't have a message because they're not really running a campaign. and his law and order message or his fear black people message, you know how we would know if that's effective above and

beyond the polls? marginal democrats in the midwest aren't worried yet. if they start leaking to "politico" and saying, hey, joe biden needs to spend more time in minnesota, joe biden needs to spend more time in wisconsin, then we would know that trump is making any sort of room. he hasn't. he hasn't been able to move anything. primarily because no matter what message the president comes up with, it doesn't work in rebranding joe biden and it doesn't change the daily reality. regular people don't care about the jobs numbers. what they recognize is that when they're still going to work every day, if they've kept their job that their kids are right next to them in the house because they can't go to school yet. what they recognize is if i still have a job, i haven't been able to go to the movies because of covid. the president doesn't have a message on covid, biden does. >> shannon, let me broaden the discussion here about how folks in the campaigns are looking at this to not just the presidential campaigns but the senate, battle for control of the senate. we've been talking about that

too. democrats trying to pick up the senate. they have this hope of biden gets elected president, they hang onto the house, maybe increase their majority there and they get the senate to give them some ability, some latitude to govern next year. when you talk to democrats and republicans looking at how this presidential race is going to impact the senate races, what are you hearing right now? >> one thing i have been hearing has been coming from donors, who are shifting some of their money that they would have given to the presidential campaign to senate races because there's a sense that maybe the presidential contest is gone or it's too big of a risk and they want to focus their attention instead to try to hold onto the senate should they lose the white house because of this fear that democrats pick up ground in the senate as well as the house. there's obviously many, many nervous senators -- senate candidates out there, joni ernst

in iowa who spoke at the republican convention. martha mcsally in arizona in traditionally red states. the numbers really indicate that republican senators have something to worry about, and even the donors are sensing that and trying to figure out, okay, maybe we need to focus on shoring up these senate races at the time being. >> yeah, john. is there a temptation i guess is the word for the biden campaign and democrats, again, looking ahead if he were to win to the idea of giving him some added clout there on capitol hill to govern with. i think back to the closing days of the 2016 campaign and the clinton folks were thinking, hey, we could maybe get arizona and they forgot about wisconsin. are there any temptations you're seeing for the democrats that they might be falling for that are comparable this time? or do you think they've learned their lessons from 2016? >> the next two months will tell us about whether they have learned those lessons. but i think they are certainly much more aware of the dangerous

temptation of spending too much money on races that they can't win or that might be tangential to the presidential election. obviously, there are get out the vote campaigns in states where you have suspeenate elections w you can sort of kill two birds with one stone. but the path to 270 electoral votes has got to be the focus of certainly the biden campaign, the democratic national committee and a lot of those big outside groups, number one. one other thing i just sort of wanted to mention, to jason's point. i spoke to congresswoman stephanie murphy the other way from orlando, one of the big blue dot coalition members, one of the leaders of the moderate democrats in the house. she was pointing out not only are those moderate democrats not telling joe biden that he needs to come to their states. when was the last time you remember an election cycle going through where there weren't candidates for the democrats out there only campaigning against their presidential candidate?

there are no democrats distancing themselves from joe biden in any way. that's really, really unusual. at this point in the cycle typically there's at least a handful of democrats saying, look, i don't really want to be with this democratic nominee. we're not seeing any of that this time. >> you know, one thing i am seeing, jason, that is interesting to me in the polling when you look deep inside it and you ask voters not who they want to win the presidential election but who they think will win the presidential election. there's a bit of a disconnect there because we showed joe biden ahead by about seven points on average in the horse race. but then when you ask folks who's going to win, trump leads on that question right now. i was looking really at the cross tabs. there are a fair number of democrats who are saying i'm for biden but i think trump is going to win. is that sort of just protective psychology there among democrats, for lack of a better term? or do you see some genuine risks here in the closing days,

closing weeks of the campaign that could still allow trump to pull this off? and what would they be, if you do? >> well, yeah. so, steve, none of these are about risk. one, democrats tend to be more paranoid. republicans are way overconfident. democrats tend to be paranoid. so that's kind of a general thing. but donald trump is cheating. i think we can't ever talk about this without saying the president of the united states is not running a campaign, he is simply consolidating power, that no matter what the polls say when debbie wasserman schultz, she's on the oversight committee and can't inspect a mail-collecting location because they put soldiers there and say you can't come in. when the same thing is happening in michigan. democrats are worried about the president of the united states using the post office to steal this election. so that's where that cynicism comes from. that's why the biden campaign's big push has been, hey, make sure you get your vote in. make sure you drop it off at a polling location. it's not that people want donald trump to get re-elected. it's because they see him

cheating and they see a republican party that is helping the process around the country. >> it's a fascinating change because i was looking four years ago, hillary clinton led but it was a smaller margin, and yet overwhelmingly folks said they expected her to win. now the margin bigger but certainly the expectation is much more in trump's favor. john allen, shannon, jason johnson, thank you all for being with us. really appreciate that. coming up, a look at what it's really like on college campuses right now. vaughn hillyard is going to give us a report from the hawkeye state. and later, we're going to reflect on an unusual campaign season, to put it mildly. you're watching msnbc. g msnbc. they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident. cut! is that good? no you were talking about allstate and... i just... when i... accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today.

accilook at thatness scuffed up wall.e. [ laughing ] staring at you. embarrassing you in front of your in-laws. spreading rumors about you at work. that wall is your everest. but not anymore. today let's paint. and right now, get incredible savings on behr premium paints and stains. exclusively at the home depot.

♪ eve♪ going faster than a closerollercoaster ♪ ♪ love like yours will surely come my way ♪ ♪ a-hey, a-hey-hey [music playing] ♪ love like yours will surely come my way ♪

across the country, some colleges are becoming pandemic hot spots. several confirmed coronavirus cases were traced back to a recent fraternity party at the university of new hampshire that

was said to have included more than 100 unmasked attendees. on friday northeastern university in boston dismissed 11 students for the fall semester, saying they had violated the school's coronavirus policies by gathering in a hotel room. the school says their tuition will not be refunded. and as cases surge in midwest states like iowa, colleges and universities there are struggling to control outbreaks and to mitigate spread. nbc news reporter vaughn hillyard has been covering that part of the story from iowa state university. >> reporter: steve, when you look around the country and where some of these major hot spots are at, they're centered around college towns like this of ames in story county, iowa. you'll see right behind me here, this is a quarantine dorm where students who have come in close contact with individuals who have tested positive for covid are being forced to move into and held in quarantine for ten days. just across the quad over here is an isolation dorm where

there's about 55 currently covid-positive students that are living as we speak. i want to let you hear directly from one of these quarantine students here on the iowa state campus. because if you look at week one of school, the percent positive rate was 13%. it's now 28%. the numbers here on campus are only going up. take a listen to one of these students. >> all classes have now transitioned to online as we can't leave the dorm. so, we have to stay in our rooms and work on class in there, go to the bathrooms and stuff, but we can't leave the dorms. we c we can go out for quick walks but they want us to quick get back inside. >> reporter: the reality that blake mcgill is living through is what thousands of students are living through, from new york to san diego, to florida, texas, colorado. there is one university suny up in new york that has already

canceled in-person classes for the rest of the school year and sending students home. there is concern about what these next months ahead look like. not just on the educational front, steve, but also on the financial front. iowa state has its first football game here and they've announced that there will be no fans in attendance. the athletic department saying that they're looking at a $30 million deficit just this year alone. these are the consequences and the real question marks heading into this fall. steve? >> all right, vaughn hillyard out there in ames, iowa. and joining us now a doctor, vice-chair of preventive medicine at the fienberg school of medicine at northwestern university. doctor, thank you for joining us. that report we just played where there's a quarantine dorm, anybody who's come in contact with a case goes there for the period of the quarantine. i just, when i think of the reality of what the in-person experience is at a college, all of the close contact with other

people that's just invariably going to come with that, whether it's through a class, whether it's through eating, whether it's through a social event, realistically can you see a way where any of these schools can get through a semester? >> well, what we know is that these schools are not going to get through a semester or a quarter or a school year without having a case. and without having many cases. i think the marker that we should follow is how well do they contain the cases that occur in their midst and how well do they stop the spread out to the local community? it goes without saying that the coronavirus is circulating in our population. we can expect that the community experience from which these students are coming and bringing to campus is then going to be replicated. while a college campus isn't an institutionalized setting in the same way that you think about a

nursing home or even a prison, in some ways it is its own community and an institutionalized setting because of the many interactions that you describe that happen on a regular basis. so there will be cases, and what's critical is that the institutional response be in place to contain that before the virus continues to spread. >> follow that point if you would. how do you play this out practically? if you're in a dorm setting, there is, i don't know, 50 people on a floor, there's ten floors, whatever it is, you've got all these people in a very tight setting. maybe it's shared ventilation that comes with that. if you get a case, what do you do? how many quarantine? what would be a responsible approach in a setting like that? >> the most responsible approach would be to think about the criteria that we're using now for contact tracing, which is were you in close contact with someone for 15 minutes or more? those individuals who are in

close contact with a confirmed case certainly need to be isolated. i would say that the entire unit should be tested. and i think to increase the confidence that there isn't a bias going into who gets quarantined and whether or not the institution stays open, this may be something that the county needs to step in to handle. although the universities and institutions themselves are using their own resources for the testing and for the isolation and quarantine, an external body probably needs to be the right party to decide who needs to be tested and isolated. >> we're talking so much here about colleges and universities, and a lot of cases private schools in particular. there's probably resources there that are in place to help facilitate a lot of what you're describing. but let's go down to the secondary school level, the middle school level, the elementary school level, public schools in particular, all around the country. how do they get through the next few months? how do they get through the

school year? >> it's a really tough situation. and you've seen districts open in some places, particularly in places that had an ongoing hot spot in the southeast. and you've seen some have to rapidly close because of the number of cases. those were the decisions made that maybe weren't the best decisions given the background rates in those communities. i think the decisions that some of the cities such as new york have made to continue forward, although to delay until the resources are in place are really smart decisions. because in communities where the background rate of disease is manageable and is very low, i think the precautions set forth by the cdc for ensuring social distancing, masking, upper hygiene can work so that we can get younger children back in school safely. >> that's the other question too, especially when you're talking about young children where schooling is about social

development often as much as it is about what they might be learning in any given class. the realities of this pandemic and how it's going to shape their school year, what are your concerns there about just the social, the emotional development of tens of millions of kids around the country? >> absolutely. one quote that i've heard often from educators is that we're moving forward with the assumption that these kids have experienced some trauma. children were pulled out of school abruptly last march. many children across the country are not going back in person for very valid reasons. and so those children have been deprived of the social interactions. in some cases particularly vulnerable children in those communities that have been hardest hit by the coronavirus, they have had friends and family members die. it's more critical than ever that those individuals get the social support and the emotional support of schooling. and in order to make that safe, we need to see the background

rates of disease in the community controlled, and when a vaccine is ready, we need to try to promote its uptake in those vulnerable populations so that we can start to tamp down the prevalence of the virus in the population so kids can come back ideally in the next school year. >> all right, doctor, thank you very much. appreciate you taking a few minutes. >> thank you for the opportunity. and coming up, a significant development today concerning the health of one of vladimir putin's biggest critics, a former u.s. ambassador to russia joins us next. joins us next. we know business keeps moving.

and however we connect, whether it's over the phone, online, or in your office, we're here to listen and provide solutions that help you run your business better. because the decisions you make have far reaching implications. and a relationship with a corporate bank like pnc can provide just what you need. as one of the nation's largest banks, pnc brings customized insights and a local approach. to make informed choices now and in the future. and at fidelity, you'll get planning and advice to help you prepare for the future, without sacrificing what's most important to you today. because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction you're moving is forward.

doctors in germany say that russian opposition leader alexei navalny is now out of a medically induced coma and is responsive. german authorities have said that navalny was poisoned last month with a nerve agent developed by the soviet military during the cold war. nbc news reports, quote, as with other poisonings over the years, russian officials have denied any involvement and said they are part of a western disinformation campaign. here to talk about it, michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia.

thank you, sir, for joining us. so as we mentioned, there's a clear pattern here that dates back years, really decades, of this sort of thing happening. tell us who navalny is and what threat he represents, represented, to vladimir putin. >> well, i would say navalny is the most important opposition figure in russia. he leads a group. he's been a political opposition leader. he's tried to run for president. he was denied that. but the most important thing he does is he exposes corruption within the russian government, within russian officials. he's fantastically talented at it. he uses social media to do so. and that's why he is so feared by vladimir putin and his regime. >> take us through. we say there is a longstanding pattern here. what is the pattern you see? take us through how this has played out in the last number of years, really, i would say decades? >> well, it's longstanding but new. and i'm glad you mentioned that because i think we get a little

too used to this as just putin and just the way the russians behave. that's not true. things have changed radically. and i think you start in 2014 when putin annexed crime era. during the cold war, the soviet union didn't annex. he's become much more belligerent. so then he supported assad in 2015. then he meddled and violated our sovereignty in 2016. that didn't happen during the cold war either. he killed or somebody killed, we need to be careful, but then another very important political opposition leader boris nemsof was murdered just a few hundred yards from the kremlin walls in 2015. and novichok was used in 2018 to try to kill a former spy who is an exile in the united kingdom using this same agent. all of those things are extraordinary events. those are not normal behavior.

and now to go after navalny with novichok that comes from the russian government, you don't walk into the drug store and buy novichok. that to me signals a new level of escalation against the political opposition inside russia. >> from the united states standpoint and from the standpoint of the international community, what should the reaction be here? >> outrage. let's be clear. this is the nelson mandela, this is the hovel for people who don't understand russian politics. this man has the audacious idea that russians should elect their own leaders. that's his radical idea. and for that he has been poisoned, his brother has been imprisoned. other leaders have been poisoned and killed too. that's who this man is. and if you remember back in those earlier periods, we all thought that these kind of political opposition figures are marginal. hovel was just a poet. a silly worker. mandela sat in jail.

be on the right side of history. the president of the united states needs to understand and the rest of the european world needs to understand that this guy is fighting for basic human rights. and what's striking and tragic about this current moment is if you compare to those earlier periods, the free world was united. the united states and our european allies did denounce these things and supported democratic leaders like navalny. today you have real outrage. i applaud what leaders of europe have said. but there's one actor absent. that's the president of the united states. that also is unprecedented, right? so russians's belligerency has increased. and the president of the united states, lack of criticism of that has decreased in a way we've never seen before in either democratic or republican administrations. >> we mention medically good news today, and hopefully the best there just in terms of navalny's health.

but politically you're describing his significance in russia, the political dynamics at work in russia as a result of this poisoning. have you already seen an impact on the domestic sort of scene there politically in russia? and what do you expect to be the fallout in russia from something like this? >> well, mass mobilization and support of mr. navalny from opposition forces was tremendous. and another thing to point out that i don't think a lot of people understand. not everybody in putin's regime supports these kinds of activities. there are people in the government that know mr. navalny and respect him. but the assumption that everybody loves putin and these people are marginal is incorrect. you've seen these demonstrations in a siberian city that have been going on for 90 days now, massive demonstrations that you have not seen in years. and right across the border in belarus. the biggest demonstrations in

support of democracy in the history of that country against putin's ally mr. luck shenko. i think it's a very volatile time. people are doing very courageous brave things in belarus, in russia. and we should be standing on their side. it doesn't mean we have the ability to bring democracy to russia. but in a world where there's right and wrong and good and evil, we need to be standing on the side of good and against evil. >> all right, ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you as always for joining us. >> thanks for having me. coming up, we're going to ask a presidential historian why this labor day is kicking off a campaign home stretch like no other. stretch like no other. 3 out of 4 people achieved... ...90% clearer skin at 4 months... ...after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections... ...and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection... ...or symptoms such as fevers,... ...sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs... ...or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine.

i feel free to bare my skin. visit skyrizi.com. even if you're on a statin? are you still at risk for a heart attack or stroke? statins may lower some risks, but may not be enough. that's why science delivered vascepa. for people who have persistent cardiovascular risk factors and take a statin only vascepa is clinically proven to provide 25% lower risk from heart attack and stroke. don't take vascepa if you're allergic to icosapent ethyl or any inactive ingredient in vascepa. tell your doctor about any medicines you take, and if you are allergic to fish or shellfish. stop taking vascepa and seek medical help if you have symptoms of an allergic reaction. serious side effects may occur like heart rhythm problems and bleeding. heart rhythm problems may occur in more people with persistent cardiovascular risk or who have had heart rhythm problems. tell your doctor if you have symptoms such as irregular beat, lightheadedness, dizziness, shortness of breath, chest discomfort or fainting. possible side effects include muscle and joint pain. proven by science, fda approved.

vascepa can reduce your risk and add cardio protection. call your doctor about vascepa today. (burke)) this? eh, nothing happened. (driver) nothing happened? (burke) nothing happened. (driver) sure looks like something happened. (burke) well, you've been with farmers for three years with zero auto claims. (driver) yeah? (burke) so you earned your policy perk: accident forgiveness. now instead of this being something, it' s- (driver) it's nothing! (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks.

they should really turn this ride off. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ that life of the party look walk it off look one more mile look reply all look own your look... ...with fewer lines. there's only one botox® cosmetic. it's the only one... ...fda approved... ...to temporarily make frown lines... ...crow's feet... ...and forehead lines... ...look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic, may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. so, give that just saw a puppy look. and whatever that look is. look like you...

with fewer lines. see results at botoxcosmetic.com i talk about if because today is labor day. it's a good time to talk about when we're being ripped off by countries. but nobody's even close to china. biden cheered china's rise is a great power because great powers adhere to international norms in the areas of nonproliferation,

human rights. well, they didn't. they took advantage of stupid people, stupid people. and biden's a stupid person. you know that. >> that was the president today. he is facing the biggest deficit an incumbent has faced at this point in a re-election campaign since george h.w. bush back in 1992. and joining us is the presidential historian. thank you for joining us. i really appreciate it. i think you've been asked once or twice over the last three and a half years if there's any precedent for different aspects of the trump presidency. >> once or twice. >> you may recall. i'll ask a different twist on it though. we're looking at a campaign here against the backdrop of a pandemic, the home stretch of this campaign playing out in a way that i can't think of any parallel. i'm curious though, can you see a parallel? have you encountered in all of your research a parallel for this kind of campaign that we're

looking at right now? >> no. as you know, steve, the pandemic of 1918 influenza, midterm election, woodrow wilson never mentioned the pandemic and tried to pretend that it was not as serious as it really was. what does that remind you of? but the other thing, steve, that keeps on occurring to me is that the founders were always terrified that we would have presidents who abused their huge powers to try to hold onto re-election. and in most of american history, that has not happened. i am hoping that we will be that lucky this fall. i am not so sure. i would say every american has to watch what donald trump does with postal service, the military, justice department, homeland security, state department, cdc, other government operations. he even talks about, quote, unquote, powers that i don't even talk about. god knows what that means. but eternal vigilance is the

price of liberty. we've got to be extremely vigilant during the next eight weeks and one day and thereafter. >> also he mentioned 1992 to the last time an incumbent faced a big gap around labor day. that was the last time an incumbent lost re-election. it occurs to me since then bill clinton, george w. bush, barack obama, we've had three straight presidents go for two terms. if trump were re-elected, that would be four straight. that in and of itself would be a rarity in our history. >> well, that's exactly right. and i think would make the founders even more nervous because they would say here is a history of presidents being able to get a second term. maybe presidents have too much power or more than that, maybe the president we've got is using his powers to get re-elected in a way that we have not seen before. i hope it doesn't happen. we've got to watch every minute this fall. >> i'm curious, there's two

different paths here. obviously we talk about if biden wins, maybe x, y, and z happens. if trump wins, maybe x, y, and z happens this way. not in terms of specific policy proposals but just in terms of if you look at the presidency itself, how do you see those two paths? >> well, president obama said at the democratic convention don't let them take away your democracy. we have never heard a former president feel compelled to say something like that. and there are some areas under which that might happen if donald trump is re-elected next year that we have to keep an eye out for. the most important role that we all have in the united states is that a citizen, we've got to be very watchful that it doesn't. but when the foreign history, steve, maybe you can think of an example, i can't, have you seen a president say if the election takes place and it goes a certain way, maybe it might not be legitimate. maybe we should fight about the

result. we haven't seen that before. and so we're presented not only with the prospect of eight weeks of a very closely fought campaign. debates are the kind that we may have never seen before. but maybe that will only be the beginning. i hope not. >> it occurs to me, and it's a big if, but if the president were defeated for re-election, there is a tradition, certainly a modern tradition we've seen of the defeated president retreating from public view largely. it seems very likely that that's a tradition if trump were to be defeated here that would change. >> well, i hope it doesn't change. and we as citizens have to insist that it does not change. it goes all the way back to george washington who gave up power after two terms to which he was handsomely elected. and people in england said this shows that george washington is a great man because he's been able to do what dictators and monarchs do not do, he was able to give up power. and could i add one thing,

steve, by the way? i have to mention i just re-read "the red and the blue," your wonderful book about the origin of some of the fights we're dealing with right now. i recommend it to everyone. history really does tell us a lot about this moment. >> i really appreciate it, that's very kind of you. great to have you on. appreciate it. coming up, a look at the state of the race in two of the most important swing states. that's pennsylvania and florida going to the big board after a quick break. a quick break. ...so you can find just the right plan for you. like the "visit a doctor anywhere our rv takes us" plan. the "zero copays means more money for rumba lessons" plan. and the "visit my doctor while eating pancakes" plan. unitedhealthcare is the #1 medicare plan provider, so you're sure to find the right plan for you. including the only plans with the aarp name. get medicare with more.

introducing ore-ida potato pay. where ore-ida golden crinkles are your crispy currency to pay for bites of this... ...with this. when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to. ore-ida. win at mealtime. introducing the future of fitness. it's every class you can imagine, live. welcome back to the mirror. you've got this john. and on demand. it's boxing... cardio... yoga... and more. it's an interactive, goal crushing...whole family...whole body fitness machine. it's so cool! the future of fitness is at home. the mirror. just between us, you know what's better than mopping? anything! at the end of a long day, it's the last thing i want to do. well i switched to swiffer wet jet and its awesome. it's an all-in-one so it's ready to go when i am. the cleaning solution actually breaks down dirt and grime.

and the pad absorbs it deep inside. so, it prevents streaks and haze better than my old mop. plus, it's safe to use on all my floors, even wood. glad i got that off my chest and the day off my floor. try wet jet with a moneyback guarantee understanding how to talk to your doctor about treatment options is key. today, we are redefining how we do things. we find new ways of speaking, so you're never out of touch. it's seeing someone's face that comforts us, no matter where. when those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care. the first steps of checking in, the smallest moments can end up being everything. there's resources that can inform us, and that spark can make a difference. when we use it to improve things, then that change can last within us. when we understand what's possible, we won't settle for less.

the best thing we can be is striving to be at our best. managing heart failure starts now with understanding. call today or go online to understandhf.com for a free hf handbook. call today or go online to understandhf.com start your day with secret. secret stops sweat 3x more than ordinary antiperspirants. with secret, you're unstoppable. no sweat! try it and love it or get your money back. go go go on a real vacation. visit go rving.com or your nearest rv dealer. with priceline, you can get up to 60% off amazing hotels. and when you get a big deal... ...you feel like a big deal. ♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal.

that's my birthday. so i need your help, okay? all right. thank you. >> now, kamala harris there, the democratic nominee for vice president in the state of wisconsin today. we talked about the importance of wisconsin to both campaigns. it's one that trump kicked off in 2016, a state that before that had not gone for a republican presidential candidate since 1984, and it's a state he badly needs to hang on to to have a shot in the

electoral college. we thought we would take a look at that question here. how hocked in is the support for each one of these candidates right now? how much room is there for voters to change their mind? biden leading trump here by about 7 points nationally. you will hear me say this a lot between now and election day. but keep in mind the key battleground states are probably going to be closer by a few points, by several points than the national horse race. so if you are seeing a 7 point advantage for trump nationally it's very likely in the battleground states it may be closer to them. maybe a point or two, maybe a little bit more. let me take you through. here's one where right now that's not the quite. it is an 8 point advantage in the recent poll, biden over trump in pennsylvania. compare that to where things stood in pennsylvania at roughly this point in 2016. and keep in mind, about the same.

52/42. this is post convention 2016. 52/44 now. it is worth remembering this because obviously in 2016 donald trump was able to come back and get the win in pennsylvania. now, we say how much room is there for folks to change their minds? how about this number from pennsylvania? biden leads by eight points. look at that number. 94% in the quinnipiac poll. 94% of voters say they have made up their mind. they're not going to change their mind. they're locked in. very, very high number. speaks to levels of polarization, how deeply rooted those opinions of trump are. but it is important to keep in mind when you see a number like that, where was that number in 2016? aga then there was that 92%. so it was plenty close, pretty much where it is now. you had more than nine and ten with their minds made up in

2016. and there was just must have room there for trump to get a fraction of a point higher than clin cton on election day. there was third party candidates who were gobbling up some of that vote that was very useful for donald trump. but keep in mind, he was down in the polling in pennsylvania with an awful lot of people saying their minds were made up. he was able to pull that out. the same thing we see. take a look at florida. biden up by three. clinton was up by 1 post convention in 2016. 93% saying their minds are made up in florida. 91% said their minds were made up post convention in florida in 2016. it doesn't move much. trump won florida by a point and a half in 2016, trailed by a point at this time. so, again, it doesn't take a lot of movement, even with so many people saying their minds are made up, there could still be some room in there. it all comes back to that idea there, the national polling, joe

biden is ahead by 7 points right now. you can see with him ahead by 7 nationally, things line up for him in the electoral college right now. but if that national number drops a few points, if it gets down to five points, if it gets down to four points, three points, if it drops like that, you can expect to see movement in his direction in these key battleground states. if you get to a point there where it is a three, four point nationally, it seems very much a live possibility that something like we saw in 2016 where the split between the two could happen. so keep that in mind. that does it for us on this labor day monday. thank you for joining us. msnbc's coverage will continue after a short break. but not any more. today let's paint. and right now, get incredible savings on behr premium paints and stains. exclusively at the home depot. start your day with secret. secret stops sweat 3x more than ordinary antiperspirants. with secret, you're unstoppable.

no sweat! try it and love it or get your money back. i'm a delivery operations manager in san diego, california. we were one of the first stations to pilot a fleet of electric vehicles. we're striving to deliver a package with zero emissions into the air. i feel really proud of the impact that has on the environment. we have two daughters and i want to do everything i can to protect the environment so hopefully they can have a great future. i wanted my hepatitis c gone. i can to protect i put off treating mine. epclusa treats all main types of chronic hep c. whatever your type, epclusa could be your kind of cure. i just found out about mine. i knew for years. epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate. i had no symptoms of hepatitis c

mine caused liver damage. epclusa is only one pill, once a day, taken with or without food for 12 weeks. before starting epclusa, your doctor will test if you have had hepatitis b, which may flare up, and could cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you have had hepatitis b, other liver or kidney problems, hiv, or other medical conditions... ...and all medicines you take, including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with epclusa may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects include headache and tiredness. ask your doctor today, if epclusa is your kind of cure. a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealth management, your dedicated adviser can give you straightforward advice and tailored recommendations. that's the clarity you get with fidelity wealth management. and tailored recommendations. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice.

and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! ♪ if i could, baby i'd ♪ how can i, when you won't take it from me ♪ ♪ you can go your own way ♪ ♪ go your own way your wireless. your rules. only with xfinity mobile.

tonight on "all in," if that's how you talk about our veterans, you have no business being president of the united states of america, period. >> new reporting on trump's contempt for military service wounded veterans and soldiers killed in action. >> who would say a thing like that? only an animal would say a thing like that. >> tonight the reporter who broke it all, jeffrey goldberg, is here and says this story is just the beginning. then another scandal surrounding the trump donor who was made postmaster general. why louis dejoy could now be facing a criminal investigation. plus, the pandemic is not over, but it's back to school