ambassador wendy sherman, thank you so much for making some time with us tonight. >> thank you, chris. >> so that does it for "all in" for tonight. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now, and it starts with rachel's exclusive interview with michael cohen. thanks for being with us tonight. it's good to have you here. the president's personal lawyer, this quote/unquote, fixer. his longtime confidant and right hand man is now a acquitted felon. including campaign finance violations and lying to congress. well, tonight for the first cable news interview, you should know while i am here in our studios in new york city and michael cohen is also in new york city, we are not physically together.

he is under home confinement for the federal bureaus of prisons and will remain so. joining us now for the interview, i'm very pleased to say, is michael cohen, donald trump's one-time personal attorney and the author of this new book, which is already at the top of the charts. it's called "disloyal: a memoir, the true story of the former personal attorney to president donald j. trump." i read it cover to cover. i didn't intend to, but i started at the beginning and didn't put it down until it was over. mr. cohen, thank you for agreeing to do this. i know you have a lot of choices. to talk to about this. thank you for being here. >> thank you, rachel. thank you for having me. >> let me start by asking, how are you doing? i know you're back at home. you're under home confinement. you had a strange circumstance where you were out on furlough and put back in otisville and then a judge intervened so you're back at home. it's had to have been a real whipsaw. >> yeah, this has been some ordeal. some people have said i'm the first political prisoner in my own country based on failing to sign over my constitutional

rights. and i really do have to thank the lawyer dania perry who did a brilliant job in the order to show cause and judge hellerstein whose opinion could not have been more accurate calling the actions retaliatory. the department of justice remanded me back to prison while i was sitting in a waiting room expecting to get an answer as to why the first paragraph they gave to me was so violative of anyone's first amendment rights. next thing i know, there's three marshals standing behind me, mr. cohen, stand up and face the wall. not only did they handcuff me, which was completely unnecessary anyway, i'm not a risk. i scored the lowest on possible, you know, numbers when it comes to b.o.p., but they shackled me as well. i mean, this was really -- this was a rough experience. >> wow. in terms of your life now and what your life is like under home confinement and releasing this book, i know there are

multiple ongoing investigations that seem to have been triggered by or that intersect with the testimony that you've given, you know, investigations by the new york state attorney general and the manhattan district attorney. potentially some federal investigations out of the u.s. attorney's offices in eastern and southern districts in new york, and i know you can't talk about ongoing live investigations, but are -- are you in an ongoing way working with any investigators or providing testimony or is that still part of your life or is that something that's in the past? >> so, you're right, it's -- i'm not -- i'm not permitted to discuss them, other than to say that there are ongoing investigations into all of the actions that everybody has heard about for so long, including the supreme court case that now exists in order to obtain mr. trump and the trump organization's tax returns. >> you write in the book that you didn't have access in detail to trump taxes, but we know that you had access to financial

documents from the trump organization because you testified about it in great detail in -- in poetic detail in front of congress in terms of basically what you described as sort of tax fraud or insurance fraud, potentially bank fraud or efforts at that by the trump organization, as the president routinely inflated the -- inflated offer deflated the value of his assets depending on who was asking. if cy vance or other investigators do get access to the kind of financial records that you testified about, what do you expect? do you think that that is stuff that is all going to be beyond the statute of limitations? do you think that will be stuff that poses a threat to the president now? >> yeah, i think it poses a tremendous threat to the president, which, of course, is why he elected not to release his tax returns. other than that, again, they are ongoing investigations. and it's probably best if i don't discuss any of the terms. >> i hear you. >> or any questions that they've put before me.

>> let me ask you about the campaign finance charges which you pled guilty to. the thing that i have never understood and i have pursued this story as hard as i've pursued anything in the trump era and nobody's been able to explain this to me. why were you the only one charged? you write in great detail about sort of coming up with this plan to cover up the payment, which was an illegal payment, with allen weisselberg. we've seen the checks you provided to congress, including at least one signed by the president's sons. it's clear the trump organization was used to sort of launder that repayment. it's clear that ami and david pecker were involved in this -- in strands of this scheme. why is michael cohen the only person who was charged? >> because they elected to make me into the scapegoat. i did what i did. i took responsibility for it. but the -- mr. trump, allen weissleberg. just to correct you for a second there, rachel, it wasn't just

don jr.'s signature that was on some of the checks, the president's signature was on two of the checks at the very beginning, which i provided to congress as part of the open house testimony. why i'm the only one, it doesn't make sense. as i stated, i was acting at the direction of and for the benefit of mr. trump. and how i became -- i'm not the one who had the affair. he did. i'm not the -- i am the dummy who paid $130,000 to keep it quiet, but this was my conversation with mr. trump, with allen weissleberg and others, and i did it in order to protect him. and i guess the thank you that i got from my loyal boss was michael cohen should, as i once said, take a bullet for him and lose everything. lose my freedom, my company, my law license, my family's happiness, everything.

to me, i'm with you, i don't understand it. >> the president is at least, though, named as individual one in the -- by prosecutors. and you and your allocution made very clear what you just made clear here, in terms of the fact that this was directed by him for his benefit and you were acting out his wishes, and so he's there for the most culpable person. you make a point as almost the very last thing you say in the book which i wanted to ask you about because i think it may relate to this. president's named individual number one. you went to prison for those felonies. he's clearly the one who directed the commission of those felonies. you say at the very end of the book that the president and attorney general william barr ousted the u.s. attorney of new southern district of new york and tried to install effectively the president's golfing buddy as the new u.s. attorney there because the president, in your view, wanted

to arrange for himself to be indicted while he's still in office because that would give him the opportunity to pardon himself after he lost the election. i just wanted to make sure that i understand the point that you're making there. just ask you to elaborate on that a little bit because i'm not sure i understand. >> well, my theory is that if he loses, there's still the time between the election and the time that the next president would take office. and in during that time, my suspicion is that he will resign as president, he will allow mike pence to take over, and he will then go ahead and have mike pence pardon him. and it's a very, let's just say it's a very nixon type of event and it was probably discussed between roger stone and president trump at some point. that this is certainly one way to avoid any potential prison time. >> i suppose if he was going to do something like that, he could arrange for the type of pardon that nixon in fact got, where nixon hadn't been charged with anything.

it was a prospective pardon that he basically arranged from ford to make sure he'd never be indicted after he left office. i guess the same sort of arrangement could apply there if he wasn't charged. >> it doesn't apply to state charges nor the charges that would be brought by cy vance's office. >> yeah. let me ask you, michael, about something that you describe in detail, which is something that i also sort of spent a long time chasing, which is this unusual story, this is page 249 of your book, chapter 12, which has got a lot of great stuff in it. and you talk about -- >> i'm glad you enjoyed it. >> i was like, ooh, 12, this is my jam. this is the part for me. so you write that the president effectively sort of flipped a house in palm beach. you describe it as an architectural nightmare, which i found effective, but he made a profit on that in excess of $50 million. and what you write about in chapter 12 is that the president

told you that although the person who bought that house from him for this $50 million-plus profit was a russian fertilizer billionaire, the president told you that he believed the actual money was putin's. quote, the oligarchs are just fronts for putin, trump told me. he puts them into wealth to invest his money. that's all they're doing, investing putin's money. then you say, in your words, trump was convinced the real buyer of that house was vladimir putin. was he speaking seriously and literally there? did he actually think that putin had arranged this $50 million windfall for him? >> well, i don't -- i don't know what he was thinking. i can only tell you, which i did in the book -- i can recount the conversation. he believes that all of the russian oligarchs are basically pawns of vladimir putin. he controls all of them. i guess very much to the same extent that mohammed bin salman had the ability within which to lock up all of his relatives and other members of the royal family for money, right?

trump is keen on this power, and whether it's putin, mohammed bin salman, the kim jong-uns, the maderos, it's the power that he's so involved with and so in search of that this is exactly what he believes. he believes that putin controls all of russia and all of its wealth, and anything like the purchase of this -- of this home had to have been through or with the permission of vladimir putin. >> and he -- you elaborate on that idea some when you talk about what you think was trump's sort of orientation toward putin and russia during the campaign. you say, when trump lost the election, he expected to lose the election, he wanted to do all he could to enable him to be able to borrow money from people in putin's circle, and that meant sucking up to the russians. a large part of the posturing and praising of putin was a way to keep the trump organization's

options open with the russian leader. so was he -- he was explicit with you about this or you could -- you were discerning this in terms of what you thought was behind his behavior? >> no, this is what's behind his behavior. donald trump, again -- they're looking for -- and to do a project in russia for many, many years, even prior to my joining the trump organization in 2007. he's fixated on the wealth of vladimir putin and all of the opportunities that come with it. you have to remember, and i've said this many times and i've said it under oath to the house and the senate as well as my open testimony. donald trump never thought he was going to win this election. he actually didn't want to win this election. this was supposed to be, and it's how he started it, the greatest political infomercial in the history of politics. so if you take that line and you -- and you add to it the trump

tower moscow project, you'll understand that this was a branding deal. that's all that the presidential campaign started out as. this was a branding opportunity in order to expand worldwide. >> the trump -- >> there's only one problem. >> yeah. >> there's only one problem, he won. >> yeah, oops. the way you describe the trump tower moscow project is grander than i had previously understood. 120 floors. you know, the free penthouse for putin, luxury condos, a hotel, a gigantic spa. >> is that not a brilliant idea, by the way? >> the largest tower in eurasia. >> if you want to raise the price per square foot, you give to the -- probably the richest man in the world and certainly the most powerful in russia the penthouse apartment. so what does that do to the square footage of everything underneath it, right? it makes it enormously expensive because he'll just tell all of the other oligarchs buy it, or they'll just want to buy it on their own, so it's a brilliant

-- it's a brilliant move. >> when you -- >> it's just not if you're running for president. >> when you communicated with the kremlin, i know you describe you had one long conversation after trying to sort of move this along by getting in touch directly with the russian government about the project. did -- was that part of the idea for trump tower moscow conveyed to the russian government? did you talk to the kremlin about the prospect of giving president putin a free penthouse apartment? >> yeah, i had a long conversation with the young lady who was an assistant. i don't remember all of the -- the questions and i don't remember how in depth regarding the project, and it was not the first and only conversation that i had with the kremlin, you know? one of the questions that was asked of me was, how did you get the kremlin's number? and i said, i googled it. while we were sitting in the scif, they actually googled it, and yeah, the kremlin's phone number comes up.

so i asked if i can speak with the secretary or the executive assistant for president putin. they asked me why. the first time i asked, i wanted to invite him to trump tower to have a hamburger with mr. trump while they were here for unga, the united nations general assembly. he wasn't going to meet with putin -- i'm sorry, obama, so i figured why not have the two of them meet? again, it was a publicity stunt that mr. trump had asked me to do for him. >> around the planning of that potential project, did you ever get to the point where financing for the project was discussed? were russian banks -- >> no. >> or connected entities going to finance it? >> no, that was always one of the problems. i had three very specific rules when i was looking at deals. the first is i had to determine if they owned or controlled a piece of property that the trump organization would be willing to build on. we never got past problem number one. so there was never discussion

with anybody about financing of this project. there was never a piece of property to put it on. so he didn't know how big the property could be, let alone, you know, how much it would cost. >> were trump properties, you know, condos and apartments and the like, were those, to your knowledge, from your time at the trump organization, used for money laundering purposes by organized crime figures or by foreign nationals? did the trump organization do due diligence on that? there's been a lot of public -- public reporting that some trump properties were quite effective as large-scale money laundering mechanisms. >> yeah, i'm not aware of any of that. i never -- i never saw that. i mean, there was one allegation -- i was the treasurer of several of the trump properties where i owned apartments in. that's really where i started. i bought them as investments prior to working for trump. and like, for example, the building that i live, which is a trump building. i think we had one russian

family and over at trump world tower, the same -- the same thing. there's a small percentage of the building that's russian. i think what they were probably referring to was trump toronto that had russian money behind it as well as trump soho that had russian money behind it, but -- to my knowledge, there was no money laundering scheme. >> let me ask you about something else that came as a total surprise to me in the book. something i didn't see coming and i'm not quite sure what to make of it. >> oh, boy. >> it's a little awkward because i'm a cable news host and it's about cable news, but you write in some detail about a prime time host at the fox news channel speaking by phone with the president. you say the call was on your cell phone and you put it on speaker so the president can have this conversation, but you're there and it's on your phone. >> no, rachel. i just connected the two calls together. >> oh, i thought this one was on speaker on your phone. let me -- you quote the host saying, mr. trump, i can't come

out publicly to endorse you at this time. it would destroy my credibility as it relates to you, but i want you to know today and have always been behind you. i speak to michael on a daily basis. anything's he's asked me to do that benefits you, i have done. that's -- i mean, i know that every cable news network is different and journalism is viewed differently by different people, but that seems like a crazy thing for someone in the news business to pledge to a political candidate. what was going on there? >> they -- they were behind him. look, mr. trump's ratings were through the roof during the -- the campaign and everybody wanted a piece of him, and so, you know, what do they do? they promised him the world. they did -- they pulled a trump on trump. whatever it is that he was looking for, whatever it is that he wanted, they were prepared to give it to him, so long as they could get an exclusive, that they could get a weekly interview, that he would make phone calls in, you know, to them in order to discuss what he's doing and give them access

behind the, you know, the blue ropes. >> the -- the other twist in this part of the book is that this fox host who called the president and sort of pledged this secret loyalty to him, this secret, you know, i'm behind you all the way, although i can't say so publicly, this is also somebody with whom you had an ongoing relationship. he had confided into you about some legal matters and some business interests and also things that were going wrong in his -- his marriage and worries about a divorce. i mean, was that a factor here? was he saying this to the president in front of you is also giving you sort of assurances all these things that you know about me. don't worry, i'm going to be good. >> right. so let's -- let me tell you the story on this one. >> all right. >> without mentioning the name. i'm sure your viewers are smart and i think they already figured out who it is. he was, as corey lewandowski would put it, he was in a time-out because there was allegations that he was really

for ted cruz. and when mr. trump got word of this, he went apoplectic and he basically refused to speak to him. he had -- he wanted nothing to do with him. he was incredibly, incredibly cruel to him the one time that he spoke. and, you know, it was my job to fix it. and i did that. at which point in time he explained that despite the fact that he happens to know ted cruz and he likes ted cruz, his loyalty was to donald trump. he is the one who he would want to see win in 2016, and anything that he can do behind the scenes to help, he would do it. and that was enough to convince mr. trump in order to take him out of the penalty box and to put him back in his good grace. >> and this -- and you don't think any of that dynamic had anything to do with your independent relationship with that host and you doing some basically consulting and confidant sort of work with him? >> no, the confidant stuff had very -- nothing to do with it.

it was really his own need and desire as a -- as a host in order to ensure that mr. trump would come on his shows, as well as having the access to the candidate who was rising in the polls, who was really the -- he was the media's sort of interest at the time, no matter -- i mean, the guy would go for a -- for a rally, they would cover it beginning to end. and he wanted to be a part of it. it was for his personal needs as a talk show host. >> speaking of personal needs as a talk show host, this is now obviously becoming a slightly awkward conversation. but there is more of it ahead with michael cohen right after this. so what's going on?

i'm a talking dog. the other issue. oh...i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 8 million dogs. nice. and...the talking dog thing? is it bothering you? no...itching like a dog is bothering me. until dogs can speak for themselves, you have to. when allergic itch is a problem, ask for apoquel. apoquel is for the control of itch associated with allergic dermatitis and the control of atopic dermatitis in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs less than 12 months old or those with serious infections. apoquel may increase the chance of developing serious infections and may cause existing parasitic skin infestations or pre-existing cancers to worsen. do not use in breeding, pregnant, or lactating dogs.

most common side effects are vomiting and diarrhea. feeling better? i'm speechless. thanks for the apoquel. aw...that's what friends are for. ask your veterinarian for apoquel next to you, apoquel is a dog's best friend. i feel like we're forglet me check.ing. xfinity home gives you peace of mind from anywhere with professionally monitored home security built around you. no, i think we're good. -good. so when you're away, you don't have to worry. the tent. we forgot... the tent. except about that. xfinity home. simple, easy, awesome. hey look, i found the tent! and, see, it's safe. call, click, or visit a store today.

one of the other sort of unbelievable stories that -- i don't mean literally unbelievable, i believe you, but you write that the president personally approved that insane

story in the "national enquirer" that ted cruz's dad killed jfk or was involved with lee harvey oswald. you say he personally approved it. and, in fact, that president trump personally demand the that that photo of ted cruz's -- supposedly ted cruz's dad appear on the front page of the "enquirer." do you know that senator cruz knows that donald trump approved that personally and made is that happen personally? >> he does now. >> you also say that the "enquirer" one after another did hit pieces on all of president trump's primary rivals. was the president involved in okaying all of those stories, too? >> let me say this, and i want to be clear to you and the viewers and everybody, nothing happens without mr. trump's approval at the trump organization. to the same extent, nothing happens without president trump's approval.

he micromanages everything, especially and including things he doesn't know anything about. >> but he was getting the "national enquirer" to run stories one after another on all of the republican primary candidates? he was involved in all of those? >> sure. as each candidate was moving up, let's say marco rubio. david pecker would reach out to me and he would give me a list of things that he was intending to do in order to squash ted cruz's or marco rubio's rise, whoever was rising in the poll, that's who became the person that we needed to knock out of the campaign -- out of the race. with marco rubio, you may remember, there was photos of him in a swimming pool, that he had a drug problem, and all sorts of -- all sorts of other we'll call them salacious rumors. and every time that they would be made -- they would be provided to me by david pecker, i would immediately take them into mr. trump's office, we would sit down, we would talk

about it, he would approve it and then i would contact david. next thing you know, two days later on the front cover, marco rubio has a drug problem. >> that is a remarkable campaign contribution to the donald trump for president campaign, at least legally, you think that that might have been seen that way. >> it could certainly be seen. and i hate to say that there's other stations right now that are doing the same thing. they're becoming state-run television as well as newspapers that, you know, if donald trump sneezed, it's the greatest sneeze in the history of the world. and front, you know, front page news story, breaking news. >> let me ask you about another sort of surprise appearance in your book. it's the appearance of don mcgahn, of all people, who, of course, has had a very unusual time in the spotlight as president trump's white house counsel and as somebody who was

a fulsome cooperator with the mueller investigation, even while he was serving in the white house. you write about arranging for a portrait of president trump to be purchased at auction basically by a fake buyer. it was actually paid for out of funds from the trump foundation. that's part of what led the trump foundation to getting shut down by the new york attorney general, but you report -- and i didn't know this before -- that one of president trump's primary rivals also filed a complaint about this, reported this to the fec as a potential campaign finance violation, and that don mcgahn in his current role then at the fec is the one who quashed it? >> that's my understanding. yeah, it was don mcgahn who had the final vote, and that's where it got quashed. it was a very -- it was a very funny story. i hope you liked it. he was afraid. he was afraid that either no one would buy it or it would go for just a few dollars. and i get called into the office, as i did 50 times a day, you know, michael, there's an auction going on in the

hamptons. that's fabulous, do you want me to go and buy you something? yeah, it's a 6-foot picture of me. i'm like, okay, what are we going to do with it? he goes, oh, we have to get the highest price of anybody by a multiple. and so i know enough people who are significantly wealthy and friends of also mr. trump's, and i reached out to one in particular who is a great guy, and said, listen, i'm not hanging this in my apartment. i said, well, i don't know if mr. trump wants you to, but what we'll do is, you know, he'll pay you back. now why he took it from the foundation, that's simply because he's cheap. he didn't want it to come from his own money, even though he believes the foundation money is his money as well. it was a ridiculous scenario in terms of even getting the money back, but we did and he took it from the foundation and that ended up resulting in the closure of the foundation based upon their failure to follow the

guidelines. >> with that not becoming something that advanced at the -- at the fec as a potential enforcement matter, do you think that don mcgahn's role at the fec in quashing that is part of the reason why he was given the white house counsel's job? was that a thank you or a payback? >> is it any more a thank you or payback, mark meadows becoming chief of staff, you know, or any of the other individuals who are now, you know, out there cheering the trump cheer and at the end of the day, you know, he believes that this shows a sense of loyalty and then therefore he can bring them in. and it's very much the same -- it's the same thing. donald trump is an enigma, all right? and it takes a while, which i tried to express in the book -- by reading the stories and by reading the statements that i make and putting it all together, you get a real true understanding of what's going on inside of his head a little

better than just listening to the things that he says on television. >> of course another way to put that is watch what he does not just what he says. michael cohen is my guest tonight. we will be right back with more after this. these folks, they don't have time to go to the post office

they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps.com print discounted postage for any letter any package

any time right from your computer all the services of the post office plus ups only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again.

you write a little bit about the president and his courting evangelical leaders to put together the kind of coalition he would need to win the nomination. and you state pretty emphatically that you think the president is -- is pro-choice, that he's pro abortion rights and that his anti-abortion -- >> no, no, no, i know that for a fact. >> how do you know that for a fact? >> because we've talked about it for years. he is -- he is -- he is not pro-life. he is pro-choice. >> do you know if he has ever either paid for abortions or demanded somebody get one? >> i never did that and was

never involved in any scenario like that with him. >> okay. i'm going to ask you about one other subject that is sensitive, but it's -- it's in the news and it's one of the few things that's happened recently enough that your book isn't up to the minute up to date on it, and otherwise the book is written right up -- i mean, you can tell you were editing right up until the very, very end, but there's this account of you and jerry and becky falwell where you described your legitimate friendship with them and your warm friendship with them and how close you feel to them. but there also is the description that you helped them get a favor for their young daughter, who wanted to get vip tickets to a justin bieber concert, and that was a great favor you were able to provide them and knew that would come back to the benefit of mr. trump at some point in the future. then you describe a problem that they had they came to you with, nude photos effectively of mrs. falwell and they were afraid they were going to become public and you intervened to essentially make sure that those

didn't become public. the way you describe it, though, they were -- you describe them as having been -- jerry falwell, i'm told, too, he and his wife were friendly with this young man who worked as a pool attendant in miami. since then in the past couple of weeks the falwells have come out and said, actually, it was a sexual affair with this young man. that puts a different cast whether or not he was blackmailing them, whether or not he was threatening them publicly and going after them and he wanted something for that. can you give us any insight now that the falwells have gone public with what happened on their side of it? >> sure. so my story that i tell actually doesn't even involve this gentleman, granda, the one who is known as the pool boy. it actually dealt with a different gentleman by the name of fernandez who was, to my knowledge, best friends or very close friends with granda, and that's how fernandez got ahold of the photos.

i never spoke to fernandez, i only dealt with his lawyer, which is something that is a theme throughout the entire book. they make it seem as though i threatened him or threatened stormy daniels or threatened this one. i never threatened stormy daniels. i never spoke to stormy daniels. i only spoke to her lawyer, keith davidson. and the same with fernandez. i never spoke to him. i spoke to his lawyer. i said what you're doing is tantamount to extortion, and if it doesn't stop, you're going to force the falwells to go to the fbi, they're going to have to report this and you're going to end up with a knock on the door and in serious trouble. so i want a commitment from you that if you have the photos that they're going to be destroyed. and he agreed. and they allegedly were destroyed. and that's why they've never surfaced. >> when you describe that as a favor that you would eventually call in, not for your own benefit, but to the benefit of mr. trump and to his campaign, the implication there is that the way you called in that favor, having helped out the

falwells in that way, is that they paid it back by endorsing mr. trump at a really important time in the primaries. >> rachel, i didn't have to use that as a chit, so to speak, with the falwells. i've spoken to them no less than two hours ago today. i speak to them on a regular basis. they communicated with me while i was in prison and the last people i saw before i self-surrendered to otisville satellite camp, so i didn't need to use that as a chit, all i needed to do was ask them and they would have done -- they would have done it anyway because i asked. >> there was no implication that they'd be at risk in some way with your knowledge and -- knowledge of those photos that the endorsement may have been something that they felt that they had to do in order to protect themselves? >> no. no. >> now, on this point, i should mention that today reuters put this same question to jerry

falwell jr. he too denied that there was any quid pro quo, that there was any threat, implicit or otherwise from michael cohen that led to his endorsement of trump during the 2016 primary. we've got more with michael cohen ahead, including what he says are the roots of president trump's deep disdain and disrespect for former president barack obama. that's ahead.

there is something that you describe in terms of the president's mind-set that stuck with me in a way that i feel like it resonates as very true, and i don't -- i can't quite put my finger on how it works. and it's about the birtherism thing, about the -- his -- what you describe as his obsession with president obama and his sort of almost desperate need to undercut president obama in some way. and you said that in the book that the president didn't necessarily actually believe that president obama was born in a foreign country, but he liked the effect that it had for him to advance this theory.

on page 114 of the book, you said he liked doing things like that, quote, the more divisive the better because it would arouse strong feelings for those who took his side. i think a lot of us observing the trump presidency have seen how incredibly divisive he is, how he tries to pit people against each other whenever he can. why does that redound to his advantage? how does that work in his favor? >> donald trump is like a cult leader. and he's -- he's very stalinistic in the fact that repeats things over and over and over again with the theory that if you continuously say the same thing over and over, people will start to believe it. you know, and i talk about a lot of his sort of proclivities and the things that he thinks and how he thinks. if you look at just the books that have come out recently, mary trump's book, stephanie winston wolkoff's book, my book, it's kind of like the trifecta of truth. we all seem to be pointing to

the same thing. he is devoid of empathy. he doesn't care what he says. he doesn't care who gets hurt, so long as he wins. and when he saw that his poll numbers and his popularity and the number of times that he's gracing the front cover of a newspaper is increasing, he just added on to it. all of a sudden he was sending people to hawaii to go check. that's a lie. he never sent anybody anywhere. he just said it and everybody sort of bought into it. of course donald trump sent somebody. he's rich, right? who wouldn't send somebody if you wanted to prove your point? donald trump didn't do it because he didn't want to spend the money and he didn't do it. his hatred for president obama is plain and simple. he's black. he went to harvard law. he graduated the top of his class. he's, you know, incredibly articulate. he's all the things that donald trump wants to be, right?

and he just can't handle it. so what do you do if you can't handle it and you're donald trump, you attack it, the same way he attacks my credibility all the time, right? all of a sudden i've become a convicted liar. well, why am i the liar? at the end of the day, who did i lie for when i lied to congress? i lied for the benefit of and at the direction of donald j. trump. so, again, very much like your very first question when we started, why am i the one who is taking all of the, you know, responsibility. i took my own responsibility, but now it's time for him and his sons and allen weissleberg and all of the other people that were involved. it's time for them to now face the, you know, the consequences. it shouldn't just be me. >> when you say that you were directed to lie to congress by him, were there people who conveyed that message to you directly? are there people who were involved in basically getting you to lie to congress or telling you to lie to congress who should also be held

accountable for that? >> well, all those names have already come out, so the answer to that is emphatically yes. they changed the document. it was all part of a joint defense agreement. you know, many of these recordings that you're going to hear on other stations have been given to that station and to the moderator by the trump organization and don jr. and others. it's, i mean, look at the way that they behave. he behaves exactly the way that i described him. he's like a mob boss. if you cross him, you're going to get it, and he's going to inflict as much pain and as much damage as he possibly can. the problem is you can't -- you can't damage me anymore. as i write in my -- in my prolog, you know, i'm broken broken. i mean, to be away from my family for -- for what? to lose my law license, my business, finances, my family's happiness?

you know, what do you think that you're going to do with your ridiculous tweets? and by the way, you know, in his tweet of today, you know, as i pointed out, he doesn't even spell properly. you know, liar is l-i-a-r. if you're going to call me something, at least have the decency to spell it right. >> over time, do you feel like his sentience has declined, in what you described in him spelling or the way that he speaks or sometimes has trouble with words. is he as -- has that changed over time? is he the same person that speaks now that you recognize working with him for all those years? >> he's not the same person that i knew going back years ago. he was always gruff. he was always a certain way, but the power that he now has has gone to his head. he wants to be an autocrat. he wants to be the president of this country for life.

he wants to be just like putin. just like kim jong-un. just like maduro. just like mohammed bin salman. he craves this. what about 12 more years? he's not joking. donald trump doesn't have a sense of humor. he doesn't laugh. he doesn't have jokes. he doesn't have a sense of humor. he means it when he says it. my book was intended to really open the eyes, 38% base of his, no matter what donald trump does, it's acceptable to them. he doesn't care, and they don't care. and he wasn't joking again when he said he could kill someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. he means. okay. just ahead, i have one last question for michael cohen which is his corroborating of donald

trump. give you my world ♪

♪ how can i, when you won't take it from me ♪ ♪ you can go your own way ♪ ♪ go your own way

your wireless. your rules. only with xfinity mobile. i feel like the one thing that has broken through a little bit at least this year about that empathy deficit you're talking about is the reporting that started in "the atlantic" this week that's been backed up by a bunch of news organizations

that he said terrible things about veterans and particularly about people who've been wounded or killed in action for this country, that they're stupid and they're suckers and they're losers. can you corroborate any of that? has he talked about his avoiding service in vietnam or anything else about veterans or his potential for serving in ways that make sense to you? >> rachel, corroborate it? i said it 18 months ago before the house oversight committee. everything you're seeing now is sort of a preview to this really horror film we have going on now called the trump presidency. to the people that don't believe this, the sequel to it, 2020 horror, is going to be even worse than the 2016 one. i said it. he literally had his father go to a podiatrist to claim he had bone spurs in his feet. he doesn't even which foot he

had the bone spur in. that's impossible. i had bone spur in my left shoulder. if i was 110 years old, i'd still remember where the scar is. i'd still remember that i had it in my left shoulder. how do you forget something like that? it's nonsensical. plus, i was tasked by him and i talk about it, in order to tamp down all of the media, all of the friends that i have in media, to tamp down the one deferment, because he did not want it to detract from his claims that he is pro-veteran and he is the veterans' hope for america and for them and that's why they should all vote for him. >> mary trump said that it was sort of family lore that donald trump jr. would be disowned if he would sign up for the military. that there was worry that he was going to sign up for the military, maybe he voiced that he was going to. president trump told him that he would be cut out of his

inheritance if he does so. so did you ever hear anything about that? >> i haven't heard on that one, but i can tell you, and i talk about it quite frequently throughout the book. the relationship between father and son is a very, very cutting relationship. at times, it was very hard to even be in the room. trump used to say that he has the worst judgment of anyone that he's ever met, and i actually interceded on many occasions on behalf of don both in his personal life as well as his business life to protect him from his father's wrath. >> you also say that you sometimes felt like you were being treated like one of the trump children in the way that he was belittling you and the way he would cut your legs out from under you essentially for his own amusement? >> for his amusement. that's why i was able to accept it. i figured if he's capable of doing it to his children -- and that's not just don junior, that was ivanka and eric and tiffany. he did the same to them.

so i figured, well, at least i'm in good company. >> michael cohen, it's a remarkable book. it's called "disloyal", again, michael, i know you have every choice in the world of where to go talk about this. thank you so much for coming on. >> rachel, all the guys in otisville, tony meatballs of the world, we are sitting there watching you. you used to argue and fight over the television, msnbc, rachel maddow has to be on. >> well, i'm going to send all the meatballs rachel maddow show mugs just because you said that. >> we have big dave the enforcer. nobody touched that television. >> thank you, michael. good luck to you, thanks. >> thank you, rachel. pleasure. >> michael cohen's new book, which is called "disloyal" is out as of today. i should tell you that we did reach out to the white house for comment on his allegations. they told that you say michael cohen's book is fiction and that he lied to congress and has lost all credibility.

i would point out in response that that's exactly what michael cohen's book is all about, and the person he blames for his own demise and all of ours is his longtime boss, president trump. thanks for being with us tonight. "first look" is up next. ♪ president trump takes his re-election campaign to battleground north carolina. at his rally last night, many supporters appeared without masks despite a state mandate. also dr. anthony fauci says it is unlikely we're going to see a coronavirus vaccine before the election. those comments are at odds with what the president said yesterday. and senate majority leader mitch mcconnell reveals a slimmed-down bill and saying that the senate could vote on it as early as this week. good wednesday morning,

everybody. it is