which ended 18 months ago was a hoax. and to do it before election day. on friday we learned that a key member of the doj team that is investigating how the mueller probe into trump's russia ties began has resigned reportedly overpressured to get a report out before november 3rd. nora was second in command to john durham appointed last year by attorney general barr to run the investigation which trump has touted as the thing that would prove that the fbi was out to get him all along. she resigned and thursday and the hartford current told colleagues she was quitting due in part to pressure to come out with a report on barr before election day. a spokesman for durham confirmed her departure but would not identify her reasons for

leaving. joining me now is democratic senator of virginia who's also the vice president of the senate intelligence committee. thanks for being here this morning. >> thank you. >> let me get your reaction to the resignation a few days ago. what do you make of that. >> well, it is a consistent pattern we see of bill barr not acting as attorney general, protecting our whole country. he's acting for the most part simply as an agent for donald trump and this investigation i feel like has added an odor to it the whole time. i don't know what durham will find or not but i would point out that you know, i wonder if he's going to then investigate the bipartisan intelligence committee because we came out 14-1 with a document in much more detail than mueller aligns the connections between russia

and trump. >> i know it's deep in the weeds and complicated but for the american people, in two sentences what are the conclusions of that report? >> well, we leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions but factually a campaign manager for donald trump giving critical polling information. i mean, you can draw whatever conclusion you want from that, but that is unprecedented in that history of our country. one example and there are literally dozens and dozens others and i would advise your viewers to, you know, google it and take a quick read. >> now, even though you said this was a near unanimous out of the senate intelligence committee, a near unanimous decision to put it out, 14-1, but overall on capitol hill in the u.s. capital republicans are turning a blind eye. they're ignoring your

conclusions. what do you make of republicans in general, the republican party completely ignoring the findings of the report, of your report? >> well, what's disappointing is even if they want to try to whitewash what happened in 2016, i think it's extraordinarily unfortunate that they've not taken the recommendations to make sure that we don't have a repeat of this happening in 2020 and even the trump administration intelligence officials have indicated that russia is back, they're back with a disinformation campaign against joe biden and one of the things i keep trying to push the intelligence committee is to come forward with even more facts, because the best preventative medicine against russian interference is an informed elect rat and i think there are mott facts that americans need to know as they see this russia disinformation campaign play out. >> as you just said, senator, the russians are back with a disinformation campaign.

they're back in terms of trying to interfere with the 2020 election. the question i have for you then is, is the trump administration, is the federal government doing anything to fight that? >> we are. the intelligence community is better at pushing back, but you know, if you're chasing after disinformation you'll always react it and in 2018 we were better about taking down some of the russian disinformation. i think we need to be more aggressive this year and at this moment in time and particularly as well as we've seen from other nations because russia does this all around the world. the best prevention is to inform your population about the russian techniques and that has not happened. the intelligence community i think wants that to happen but as we've -- i am continually concerned about the

politicalization of the top leaders. >> everyone's been talking about bob's book "rage." what's troubled you the most about what we've learned from the book? >> what's troubled me the most with 190,000 americans dead and tens of millions of folks who have lost their job partially due to the pandemic we didn't have to be here. the president clearly misled the american public. people got sick and died because they did what you would normally do, listen to your president and he misled about the severity of the virus and here we are six months plus into the virus, we still have no national plan on testing. we still have no national plan on ppe and in a country like ours we should not be here and frankly, being more straightforward about the virus on the front end, taking the kind of federal responsibility to actually have a national plan to secure ppe, have a national plan on testing put in place a

national plan on a vaccination when it comes and it should come only after the science vets it, would be the appropriate response. obvious think that's not the way donald trump has acted. >> thank you very much for joining me this morning. >> thank you, jonathan. and now joining the discussion. mia wylie, professor at the new school and thank you both for being here. natasha, let me start with you. this durham probe and the report that's coming out, from your reporting, where does it stand? is it going to come out before election day? >> a great question, jonathan and we really don't know where it stands at this point. we know that according to reporting there has been pressure on durham to come out with a kind of interim report before election day, before he

completes his full investigation kind of outlining some of the findings that he's made as port of this probe. that wouldn't be the final report. it would be something to hold us over until the final report and something of course, that the president could then use before election day and try to weaponize, but we know that durham has been traveling all around the world interviewing foreign governments along with bill barr. bill barr has been intimately involved in this investigation about the origin about the russia investigation and we don't know what he's found yet. we know that it's resulted in at least one criminal prosecution of one former fbi agent who altered a document but we don't know if more is going to come out of that or that's going to lead to more prosecutions but i think the thing that is alarming experts the most here is the possibility that in order to have some kind of impact on the election, perhaps, that he will come out with an interim report which is kind of, you know, in contradiction to long standing

doj policy where you don't release something that could impact the election within 60 days. >> the other terms in terms of potential prosecutions, the president has made it clear, he thinks that hillary clinton should be prosecuted. former president barack obama should be prosecuted and other high ranking officials. in the clip we showed, with the president saying it could be much more or not, or it could be much more. how seriously could we take it that a report companion out that says president obama should be prosecuted? >> well, the attorney general has already said that he doesn't expect any criminal referrals to be made about the former president or about joe biden for that matter. now, whether or not we take bill barr's word on that is another question entirely. but it would be a new step, i

think. a real just intensification of the splittizization of the justice department if there were to be a recommendation of criminal charges against a president's chief 2020 opponent and of course a former president. right now we don't have any indication that that's going to happen but it's of course something that everyone should be keeping an eye on. >> maiya let me bring you in here. do you take bill barr at his word that that's not going to happen, criminal charges against hillary clinton or president obama -- former? >> i would certainly take him at his word that he doesn't currently have plans because the president has not yet forced him to try. i think what we've seen is the common pattern with bill barr unfortunately is that he has demonstrated himself to be someone who rather than putting the best interests of the country first, particularly when it comes to law enforcement has

actually behaved as donald trump's defense attorney. we should remember here important fact is that remember when donald trump claimed that he wasn't firing james comey because he didn't promise him loyalty but because james comey sent out that october surprise in the form of a letter that claimed essentially that he was reopening an investigation related to hillary clinton's e-mails? remember that? >> right. >> because that's exactly what we're talking about right now and donald trump himself as well as bill barr have made these statements publicly that we should expect at least some report prior to the election and i don't think there's any question about the fact that everything we have seen or heard including from career prosecutors is that they have been pressured to do things that benefit his re-election bid. >> i'm reminded that our own

pete williams asked attorney bill barr if this report would be released before election and the attorney general said he didn't know. natasha let me get you on another issue and that is the reports that a whistle blower complaint that is -- a letter to the dhs council on friday asking for more information about a former dhs officials whies l -- whistle blower's complaints. and it is outrageous but for your national security perspective, how damning and damaging is that? >> well, it essentially amounts to if this was a whistle blower complaint is true, it amounts to a politicalization of intelligence which is extremely dangerous especially inflating

threats posed by far left groups while essentially ignoring threats by far right groups which they have determined is a much bigger threat to the american homeland. especially in terms of, you know, far right groups who are inciting violence and who are more likely to carry weapons. so this is a huge issue and that is exactly i think why this former dhs official chose to come forward now especially with regard to the issue of russian disinformation and russian interference, we had microsoft come out last week and tell us that russia was targeting over 200 organizations ahead of the 2020 election. and you know, that's not something we've heard from our own federal government. we had to have a private company tell us that. so the idea that this information is being with held from the american people ahead of 2020 is incredibly alarming and i think that that's what really drove this individual, bryan murphy to come forward and

say look, this can't continue because we need to have a realistic picture of all of the different actors so that the public is well informed of what to expect. >> you'll be back in our next hour. coming up, bob woodward's new book is sending shock waves across the world except with one very powerful group. i'll tell you about them after the break. i'll tell you about them after the break. we got no free pass. everything we have, we've earned. the unmistakable lexus is. get zero percent financing on the 2020 is 300. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. experience amazing verizon knows how to build unlimited right. start with america's most awarded network. i'm on my phone 24/7. then for the first time ever, include disney+, hulu and espn+. we're a big soccer family. "handmaid's tale ." i love "frozen ". then give families plans to mix and match, so you only pay for what you need. and offer it at a price built for everyone.

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>> in that february 7th interview, it's clear that the president knows what the stakes are, but he's not sharing that with the public at that time. >> yes. this is the tragedy. the president of the united states has a duty to warn. the public will understand that but if they get the feeling that they're not getting the truth then you're going down the path of deceit and cover up. by now you've heard about

how department deliberately misled the american people about the grave threat that covid-19 posed after privately admitting to bob woodward in early february that he knew the virus was quote, deadly stuff because it's air born and therefore extremely contagious. the trump's admission on the real danger of the coronavirus does not happen in a vacuum. his conversation came just two days after trump's acquittal in the senate during his impeachment trial. yet another example of trump emerging from one skcandal and jumping right into another. just like the infamous phone call to the ukranian president asking for a favor came one day after robert mueller's testimony was deemed a nonstarter and just as during his impeachment trial, congressional republicans continued to look the other way. >> look, i didn't look at the woodward book. i will later, but i haven't even seen what you're referring to

yet. >> i hadn't read it. >> i've not read it. i want to read it. >> joining me now are tom nichols, opinion columnist for usa today and david jolly a congressman who is no longer with the party. thank you very much for being here. let me add one more voice to the denial chorus we just heard there. take a listen to this. >> it was lindsey graham who helped convince donald trump to talk to bob woodward. graham is supposed to be a republican so why would he do something like that? >> here's the more important point to me. i'm interested in what did joe biden know and when did he know it and what was he thinking at the time this coronavirus came on? i'm sorry. last i checked joe biden is not president of the united states. why -- we go through this all the time but i am still

mystified and i'll go to you, david, first, because you are a former member of the republican party. why are they doing this? why are they turning a blind eye to a republican president who has done damage to this country? >> yeah, look, i think we have to judge republicans' behavior on two fronts. one is structural and run is reasons of character. on the structural we have an electoral system that is rigged toward partisanship. you have closed primaries and we have big money that's tied to partisan behavior so you see republicans doing the thing that reward republicans and dems doing the things that reward dems, but then you get to the real core of the question which is questions of character and jonathan, politicians either lead or they follow and we're living through a generation of republican politicians right now who simply follow. there are very few leaders on capitol hill and we see that. the best politicians of any era

are the ones that are willing to lose their jobs. the ones that are willing to draw public opinion in the direction of what reflects the character of the nation. we're not seeing that in the republican party and is why we can never overlook the republican majority that enables and celebrates this president. it is trumpism that has infected the entire party. >> tom, let me get your reaction what you've learned in the reporting on bob woodward's book and what that says to you about the president, the party and the country. >> first off, it's fascinating to hear members of congress say well, i vice president read the book. well, neither have i but you have ears, you have a television, every senate office, every senate office has a hundred televisions in it. you know what the president said.

and you know, react to that but i think as david pointed out, the goal here is survival. the president's goal is always to kind of engage that lizard brain survival mechanism to somehow overcome the next terrible thing that he's done. the republican party's job is to keep surviving and to simply get to the next election, keep the party infrastructure intact and then every republican elected is basically living minute to minute saying how do i get from my office to my car without the president blowing up my career. and i think it is really important to say that a lot of republicans now, you know, every politician wants to get re-elected but in that reluctance to lose their job that david talks about they're now saying things that will be carved on their political

gravestones. all this happened and you know, right on queue. sue cinchsusan. >> caller: the senator -- the united states senator but that's what trump has reeuatcreated is an opportunistic mind set. >> one of the things that that requires is a heightened skill of avoidance, the "new york times" reports that mr. woodward's book illustrated that as much as mr. trump tries to change the subject before the november election to a call to order and a crackdown against police brutality he's unable to escape scrutiny for his response to a virus that has killed nearly 190,000 people of the

united states and upended the lives of millions more. the president still trying to, if not ignore the coronavirus, certainly avoid blame for the tens of thousands of lost american lives as a result of this pandemic. david, do you think the president will be able to succeed in trying to change the subject from the virus to law & order? >> he certainly may and with his constituency but to your point, jonathan, i think this woodward revelation on the heels of the atlantic may be a political wound from which donald trump cannot recover. he may not win this election because of this and people say no, you're crazy. we always see donald trump rebound from that. that's true but i'm putting my assessment in the context of being seven weeks out from an election where you have an incumbent desperately in need of momentum. in politics you want to win

every week. so if we have two weeks now by donald trump having to defend his lying to the american people, his slighting american heroes, our veterans and our wounded, donald trump cannot get that momentum he needs to get to november. what he thaz to do is shift about 35% of the country. so now 5% of the country that is maybe possibly persuaded, they're being persuaded towards joe biden right now. donald trump will definitely try to change but it may be too late. he may be losing this election in real time right now. >> that's an interesting analysis. do you agree with david, tom? >> i always thought that the election was mostly baked except for four or five states but there has been some polling data to indicate that these two issues together, that lying about the pandemic and this kind of utter hostility and contempt for the united states military

are -- is actually moving votes, that people are finally paying attention and saying that they really just can't be associated with this. i think trump is desperate to turn the subject to law & order but it's interesting to note that even when he has turned the subject to law & order he doesn't really get that much traction out of it even while there are people on the left that are trying to, you know, out there trying to help him with that but i think these are really -- these are deep kind of intuitive issues for the american people. and people are -- hundreds of thousands of people have become sick and are dying and we now have the president on tape lying about it. this -- and i think it tells you something about -- to go back to your earlier question about what has trump done to us, he has fire he'sed us with so many scandals and lies, this is almost just another week. but i think this is starting to kind of break through and people are understanding that the president lied about a pandemic

and people are paying for it with their lives. >> thank you very much for being here this morning. >> thank you, jon. >> coming up, rudy giuliani will try to explain his relationship with a freshly sanctioned russian agent. buckle up. that's next. agent. buckle up. that's next. after my dvt blood clot... i wondered.. could another come around the corner? or could it play out differently? i wanted to help protect myself. my doctor recommended eliquis. eliquis is proven to treat and help prevent

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donald trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani is back in the spotlight amid new concerns over foreign interference in our election. on thursday, the treasury department levelled sanctions against a russian lawmaker who previously worked with giuliani to dig up dirt on joe biden and his son hunter. he's been an active russian agent for more than a decade and has spread corruption claims to interfere in the 2020 election. giuliani has met with him at least three times since last

year according to the "washington post" and has even appeared with him on the one america news network. you know it as own. but giuliani said he had no reason to believe that he was a russian agent. joining me right now is personal attorney to donald trump, rudy giuliani. thank you very much for being here this morning. >> how are you, jonathan? >> good, thanks. >> so why were you working with a russian agent to sbeinterfere with the 2020 election? >> i wasn't working with the russian agent. >> the treasury department called him a known russian agent. >> but i wasn't working with him. i was interviewing him. there's a big difference between working with someone and interviewing them and also it was long after i completed my report on the ukranian crimes that were committed. i submitted that five months

earlier to the state department. so he did not play any evidence in that. the evidence that he has is all secondary. he read the prosecutor's report so he's a useless witness for that point of view but he did provide evidence about $5.3 billion in foreign aid that's unaccounted for in ukraine. 3 billion of which is american money for which two people have been indicted by the ukranian government and i have no reason to believe that's untrue. but i don't have to verify it either. it looks like it is true that about $5 billion in american foreign aid is unaccounted for. the ukranian government had cover it up under a well known crook. that's why he got dismissed in the election, virtually destroyed and right now for the first time there may be a chance we can recover that money. they just indicted two people that are very close to george --

>> i'm sorry. i need to -- >> who embezzled about -- but how come we're not covering the mueller tapes that were wiped out? >> i'm going to pull you out of the weeds and out of the conspiracy theories. i need to talk to you -- >> we're going to try to have -- well, he has nothing to do with biden. >> no. mayor giuliani can you please explain the nature -- >> i did not know he was a russian agent. >> how could you not know? >> how could i not know? i'm not sure. >> you're a former prosecutor, you have a national security firm. how could you not know that this person you were talking to was a known russian agent? who graduated from kgb schools? >> jonathan, calm down. i -- >> answer the question. >> i do not have access -- don't yell at me, jonathan. that isn't dignified. pretend to give fair coverage.

pretend. i know you won't cover the obstruction of justice by the 12 mueller prosecutors who wiped their phones clean. >> we're talking about a treasury -- >> you're talking about an irrelevant subject. >> it's not irrelevant because you have had dealings with him. you met with him three times last year. >> you see the loaded words you use? i haven't had dealings with him. >> you just said you interviewed him. that's a dealing. >> i interviewed him three times. >> you interview a lot of people. >> i do and i'm trying to interview right now. can i just ask you a question about the treasury department's investigation. >> sure but i'll answer your earlier question. >> did you cooperate with that investigation in did you cooperate with the treasury department's investigation. >> i have no knowledge about it. i haven't read the report so i don't know what's in the treasury department investigation nor have i ever seen any evidence that he is or

he is not a russian agent. so i may -- i don't know anything about that. i can tell you i interviewed him six months after i completed my investigation that i submitted to the state department. he is not in that investigation. and i concluded when i interviewed him including on my pod cast that he doesn't have any relevant evidence with regard to biden but he does have a report that could be useful to us in recovering $3 billion. so far some part of that restaurant has been verified by the ukranian government. that's what i know about him. >> i do want to ask you -- >> let's move on to what the mueller investigation did to wipe out their cell phone. >> did anyone in the trump administration warn you to not meet with andre derkash. >> no. nobody in the administration. >> or the department? >> no one ever warned me not to meet with him. >> no one ever warned you.

>> it was long after -- >> mayor giuliani did you discuss with the president your meetings with andre derkash. >> i can't tell you without getting disbarred what discussed with my client. i can tell you it was long after that joe biden was bribing the president of the ukraine. >> so you did talk to the president about this. >> he has taken money from iraq, millions in iraq and multiple millions in china selling his office -- >> i'm trying to be -- >> you know, common criminals. >> i'm trying to be fair to you because you just said -- you just said. >> you're tot being fair to me. you're not being fair to me. i'm used to it. >> you said you didn't talk to the president until after the investigation was completed so you did talk to the president. >> no i didn't say that. >> that is why i'm asking the follow up question.

when you talked to the question did you tell the president you would go back to derkash at all. i'm trying to give you an answer that i'm allowed to give as an attorney is my questioning of him occurred long after the facts about biden's bribery were submitted to the state department as well as the democrat collusion with the ukranian government to develop false evidence. i submitted that to secretary pompeo many march of last year. and i met derkash on television and i've interviewed him three times and they're all a matter of public record. >> a nice plug for your pod

cast. mayor giuliani -- >> we're not communist, jonathan. >> have you ever paid or facilitated payments to him for any information or vice versa? >> no. i don't pay people for information. >> okay. >> you know me long enough to know i wouldn't do that. you covered me when i was mayor and u.s. attorney. you know i'm not a dishonest person. >> so you know what, mayor giuliani, i'm glad you brought that up because i have covered you since my early days in the new york daily news editorial page and as i mentioned you made your name as the federal prosecutor. you were mayor of new york city twice. 19 years. >> i was much better when i was mayor. right? >> well, no, the person who succeeded you made it even better and that was mayor bloomberg. >> no question about he turned it around and he made it better. >> my point here. >> the guy that's running it now

is ruining it. you admit that right? >> the idea that a former federal prosecutor, former two-term mayor of new york city, a person who has a national security firm, how -- i'm trying to understand how someone of your stature and career, what happened to you, mayor giuliani? why are you out here speaking to conspiracy theories and lies and interfering with the american election? what happened to you? >> i'm not interfering with an american election. indicting steve bannon is interfering with an american election but that's okay. but putting out a report that -- >> you're running around the world trying to find evidence and you're not finding any -- >> no i'm not. >> -- that can't be debunked by fact checkers all over the country. >> i am not. i was defending my client, donald j. trump against false charges that have been proven to be false and that your network

refuses to publish and you won't publish that 12 cell phones wiped by prosecutors, prosecutors don't wipe cell phones by accident. not 12 of them. what the mueller people were doing was obstructing justice as we said. they were democratic operatives posing as prosecutors. >> i need to -- >> you don't cover it. >> i'm not covering conspiracy theories, i'm not covering lies. mayor giuliani i just want to -- >> but you decide what's lies and conspiracy theories. >> i'm going to end this interview by getting you i to respond -- >> democratic point of view, jonathan. that's not right to the american people. >> one of your former colleagues sent out a tweet that i want to read to you. so now@rudy giuliani, wants the world to believe that he did not know who derkas when was he flew

to ukraine. what is your response to that tweet? >> he -- he's lying because he wouldn't possibly -- i wasn't in contact with him then. he got arrested and abroke contact with him. he was in jail when that happened. the guy is a known liar, crook, thief, and you know, in my business, national security, security, prosecution, you deal with bad people to get information. i mean, that's how i made all my cases against the mafia, against crooked politicians, i mean, the case against biden is overwhelming. i could prove it. >> mayor giuliani. >> in a four-week trial. >> on that note it is -- >> to sell his office and your station is covering it up. because you're not fair to the american people. >> i want to thank you very much for coming on. thank you for coming on the show. you called him a liar and a

crook and therefore, i would like to bring in lev par nas who has now been indicted on election fraud charges. so we won't be discussing the facts of the case. thank you very much for being here. you heard mayor giuliani's response to your tweet. what's your response to him? >> i have a lot of responses to him. i don't know to start off with, you know, for somebody that was the god father of my son and somebody that i spent every day with and as soon as i got indicted like he said steve bannon is a great guy and all of a sudden i'm a liar and a crook. i want to get the truth. i'm not here to cut you off, jonathan and thank you for

having me but i want to tell the truth. it's a matter of national importance. >> so in the interest of telling the truth, did rudy giuliani know for a fact that andre was a russian agent and working on behalf of the russian government in his dealings with him in getting information about joe biden? >> i mean, it's been possible for him not to. i mean, i -- before we came on i googled just for curiosity and the first thing that comes up is actually a "washington post" article, the murder story involving they call him the ukranian and this is a news media and you're talking about from personal experience, you remember i've spent the last time with rudy and rudy mentioned that he delivered that report in march. remember, i was part of helping him with that report at the time

and helping the president get all that information and all that propaganda against vice president joe biden so i'm very well aware and he knows that i know that i'm not lying and he knows that i know the truth. and that's why i think he's a little bit nervous right now because of what he got himself into because he knew -- yeah. go ahead. i'm sorry. >> no, you're saying that mayor giuliani is nervous about what he got himself into. he mentioned several times that he has proven what he set out to investigate and that he has written this report and submitted this report but if i heard you correctly, you just said that whatever is in that report is disinformation. >> correct. i mean, if there was any truth to the matter, i mean, we would have -- we have foreign intelligence -- let's take a step back for a second. he lied to you that he said he hasn't spoken to president trump about the meeting.

as you recall there was plenty of reporting that trump himself came out on to the lawn and said that rudy called him from the plane before the plane landed to tell him he had great news. the president went as far as he will give all the information to attorney barr. we opened up a special prosecutor to get all that information. so if that information like rudy's been talking about for the past two or three years saying that it's a bomb shell, where is it? what's going on? it's a fairy tale. it's a propaganda and like i said from day one, it was all meant for a new cycle to change and put doubt in joe biden because president trump was always scared of joe biden. it was always about joe biden and that's why they started even before joe biden came -- announced that he was running for president because he was always scared of joe biden. >> so he was always scared of joe biden. so the president and rudy

giuliani at his behest were doing everything possible to get as much dirt as possible on joe biden, but the question is, even if that dirt was not real, do they know that the quote unquote dirt they're digging up on joe biden is disinformation, is not real? >> oh, i believe so. absolutely. i mean, rudy -- i mean, he's been around the block plenty of times. he's an astute political trigger. he's been attorney general, he's been the mayor of new york. >> prosecutor. >> prosecutor excuse me. he knows the system and knows exactly what it is and what it's like and he understands what's going on. basically the people he's talking to are giving him what he wants to hear. what the president wants to hear and that's what they're running with and that's all it is.

>> joe, let me bring you in here because it is extraordinary that lev is here on television reacting to mayor giuliani and i keep thinking, how much legal jeopardy does lev put himself in by coming out and doing what he's doing today right now? >> good morning. every statement that lev made is subject to credibility attack. everything that he says is being watched, i'm sure, by members in the southern district of new york, probably members of the justice department and each one of these interviews is an opportunity to try to catch him in something and trip him up. however, lev is here to tell the truth as he said. we're not talking about the charges he's facing in his upcoming trial, and as he said before it's a matter of national importance and we made a decision that the american people deserve to they are this.

it's very courageous i would think. >> one more question before i let you go. you mentioned after the introthat rudy giuliani was the god father of your son? >> correct. >> right? god father of your son. someone clearly you admired for a long time. just personally, how does it feel to you to have someone you looked up to and revered turn on you? you know, on a dime. >> it's very painful. it's still painful to today because not only did i look to him as literally a family member but you got to remember i grew up in brooklyn, new york and i looked up to rudy giuliani as mayor, presidential candidate and to me i was in awe of him and i was just so impressed with him and the number one thing that really got me was he would

always preach, you know, that honesty, we're not doing anything wrong and then all of a sudden turned into a politician and watching him lie on tv and watching them do the things they're doing, it just felt like -- it feels like you're abused a used and abused. i feel he took my love, my trust and my honesty, but he was really using it for, like you said, his number one, and that's donald j. trump. >> lev parnas, joe bondi, thank you for coming on the show today. >> thank you, jonathan. my all-star panel reacts to this morning's revelations from rudy giuliani. more "am joy" after the break. jk thousands of women with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread to other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women

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the idea that a former federal sprprosecutor of fdny, national security firm, i'm trying to understand how someone of your stature and career, what happened to you, mayor giuliani? why are you out here, speaking -- >> nothing happened to me. >> conspiracy theories, lies and interfering with the american election. what happened to you? ooh, good morning. welcome back to "am joy." i'm jonathan capehart. i just wrapped up my interviews with donald trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani and lev

parnas, one of juligiuliani's fr associates. an all-star panel is here to react to all of it. joining me now, maya wiley, natasha approximabertrand, emilx author of "born trump" and msnbc contributor jill banks author of "the waterdpat girl." okay. maya, you go first. your reactions to what mayor giuliani had to say. we're going to go round robin. >> okay. so, incredible. by which i mean unbelievable. one is that he claimed to not be influenced by conversations with a known russian agent when, first of all, you could google back in 2019 an english paper

had articles about his potential links to russia. that's number one. anybody could have done that research. a former u.s. attorney. surprising that he didn't do that. secondly, he, himself, publicly said, hey, i want to submit a report to congress. i haven't finished writing it yet. this was after his meeting. for him to say oh, yeah, i already wrote that report already, it was already submitted, like none of his conversations with him had any bearing. third we shouldn't forget that giuliani is the person who had paid clients in the ukraine and someone who is lobbying for foreigners in the u.s.

i just put that out there because unfortunately to your question, jonathan, to rudy giuliani about what happened to you, there are a whole bunch of reasons to be legitimately asking that question. >> emily jane fox? >> i've been asking that question and the answer i get back is that these people have been public servants for most of their adult life and at some point they just want to make money. they've reached the point where that has become the most important thing to them and that is probably the closest answer to the truth of why he's involved in this. what struck me from your fantastic interview was his answer when you asked him if he had had these conversations with president trump. from everything i know about

anyone who has worked in a lawyerly capacity or any kind of capacity with president trump or donald trump before he was president is that they do everything to please their boss or their client. it is inconceivable that they didn't have this kind of conversation. if they did have that kind of conversation, which i would find very hard to believe that they did not, that is a gigantic and one we should pay attention to. >> jill wine-banks, what did you take away from what rudy giuliani had to say? >> there are so many inconsistencies and lies in what he said. i think the one that i would focus on the most is i can prove it. if he could prove it, he would have done that. obviously, he doesn't have the proof. and i agree with what's already been said. he was spreading misinformation. he certainly would have told donald trump about his meeting. but the most important is that there is no evidence.

if there was, he would released his report and it would have gotten some attention. so we can't believe anything he's saying. i actually worked in the organized crime section when rudy giuliani was part of the organized crime section. although i didn't know him well, he did have a fine reputation as a good prosecutor. when you asked him what happened, i don't think it's just his hunger for money. i think it's power. he started to believe his own publicity about being a great mayor. and now, of course, he's spreading total lies about bill deblasio, crime statistics in new york. actually right now they are better than they were in rudy giuliani's best year. so, we have to just take it all in context and think that something has happened to his mind and that he's willing to do anything to keep in power and keep on the front page. >> natasha, before i get your

reactions, i want to read something from the treasury statement in terms of derkach from at least late 2019 through mid 2020, derkach waged koefrt influence campaign centered on cultivating false and unsubstantiated narratives concerning u.s. officials in the upcoming presidential election. given that statement and what you heard from mayor giuliani, your impressions? i'm still reeling from it. but your impressions. >> yeah. i think there was one moment of genuine transparency from rudy giuliani where he said look sometimes in my business you have to meet with and do business with bad people in order to get information. i think that's very telling. it shows that rudy giuliani

understands that some of these characters he has been dealing with are not only unsavory but perhaps have bad motives. and the idea also that derkach has nothing to do with biden is another point that giuliani was repeating. and it's just complete untrue. derkach has been holding press conferences since late last year, all about joe biden and poroshe poroshenko. he has been releasing tapes that he obtained from some opaque source, we don't really know, of conversations between joe biden and poroshenko. >> i'm glad you brought it up. i was about to ask you, those tapes that have been released have been -- they're questionable. they've been heavily edited. >> absolutely. they've been edited. they've been doctored. we don't even know where he got them. these have all been part of a campaign to discredit joe biden ahead of the election. it's not just that derkach is

speaking in a vacuum here, he is descending information to members of congress and some of that information has informed investigations that are going on right now, investigations that are going to produce a report prior to election day, speaking of, of course, from senator johnson and grassley in the senate into these allegations that are being made out of ukraine by these ukrainian figures that are then being funneled back here, put into the mainstream and legitimized by congre congressional probes. this is all part of the same operation here, what ultimately got the president impeached is now being funneled into these congressional investigations either through rudy giuliani, who said he's submitting his own report to congress through people like derkach who recently parted ways with a lobbyist, who was trying to get him meetings on capitol hill with lawmakers and other important people about this biden issue. this is all part of the massive

disinformation campaign to undermine biden ahead of the election, that the intelligence community has been specifically warning about for weeks now. >> speaking of this disinformation campaign, let's take a look at this clip from an own news report. >> we sat with him for over three hours. we asked about barisma. joe biden and hunter biden pop up. >> uh-huh. >> tell us how their names are involved in these criminal cases you were looking into. derkach goes in length talking about the political context in which barisma was operating. >> i wanted to show that to give even more context to what natasha was talking about. natasha, if you have any reaction to that clip, please state it now. >> yeah. so one american news has obviously been participating in all of this. and the ukrainians trying to

push this disinformation is trying to get it into the mainstream america now, and they found it in one american news. the treasury department went really far in its statement saying that not only is he tied to russian intelligence services, he's actually an active agent of the russians. that is donald trump's administration saying that this is someone who is, again, taking from the russian's playbook in 2016, trying to meet with these people on the perimeters of the trump campaign, on the perimeters of trump's association essentiassociates essentially and trying to undermine the democratic candidate so that they can help donald trump win. this is a remarkable thing to come out of donald trump's administration. again the intelligence community said it about derkach a few weeks ago as well. they're finally revealing this because they don't want a repeat of 2016. >> let's move away from the

lawyer and now let's talk about the client, who has been all over the news, as usual, but as a result of bob woodward's book "rage." i'm talking about president trump. let's take a listen to one of those tapes of bob woodward's interviews with president trump. >> it's a very tricky situation. >> indeed. >> it goes through air, bob. that's always tougher than the touch. you know, the touch, you don't have to touch things, but the air, you just breathe the air. that's how it's passed. and so that's a very tricky one. that's a very delicate one. it's also more deadly than your, you know, even your strenuous flus. this is deadly stuff. >> you know, every time i hear that recording, maya, of the president of the united states talking lucidly, talking with comprehension about the coronavirus, my head wants to

explode, because it is the complete opposite of what he has been telling us since february, since that phone call. it's as if he does a phone call with woodward, leaves the oval and goes out to the meek row phones and tells the american people the exact opposite. your reaction to knowing that the president of the united states did not protect the american people? >> so i'm going to answer this question as an american and as -- >> looks like maya is frozen there. i'm going to go to swrjill wine-banks on this one and then we'll come back to maya. >> yes. it's not a surprise that donald trump deceives the american people. he has been doing it for more than four years since his campaign opened. and it is surprising to hear him speaking in full sentences and with some understanding of an

issue that he claims no understanding of. and his excuse of, i didn't want to panic the people is so contrary to everything else he does because he has run his entire administration on fear, fear of the caravan coming, fear that people are going to move into your neighborhood and destroy the suburbs. that's what he runs on. he didn't have to panic anyone. he could have said i'm taking all the steps i need to take. i will have enough protective equipment. i will have a vaccine. we're all in this together. wear a mask. that's the best protection. and yet even now he's holding rallies with no masks. so, it is shocking to hear that. my pins today, i'm wearing microphones. >> i see that. >> because of bob woodward's recordings, and i think in watergate the difference between no one believing john dean

without tapes and what happened when we have the tapes, it just changes everything. so everyone who listens to those words knows the truth. it doesn't take any intervention by the media. you heard the president say it's a really serious, deadly disease. and then he went out and, for months, said the opposite. so i think that is going to make a difference. i think people will pay attention. and it could influence how people vote. it should influence how people vote. >> and now that we have her back, let's pay attention to maya whily. maya? >> so if you lead by lies, you're also leading people to their destruction, and that's exactly what we saw donald trump knowingly do. and here in new york city, we lost over 20,000 people because the president did not respond truthfully and honestly, and based on the facts. and even now, even as we have seen, have heard these tapes

emerge, have heard donald trump double down on falsehoods, he still isn't communicating what health experts, what his own expert, dr. fauci, is saying about the virus. and at a time when we desperately need honest, transparent, calm and, frankly, fact-based leadership, as jill said, what the president is showing the american public is that he cares not about us, but that he cares about himself. and that's what bob woodward's book shows. there is this thing in the you state called the 25th amendment. one of the things that i think is so striking about what's in bob woodward's book is that we have people like james mattis actually saying that they're concerned about this president because he is unfit for the office. that is exactly when the 25th amendment should become a real

conversation in a cabinet that puts the american people above a particular person, in the person of the president. >> emily jane fox, you are the author of "born trump." of all of us, you've got an insight into that family. i'm going to leave you with the last question. given what you heard on that tape and given what you know about that family from years of reporting, were you shocked to hear just how clearly the president talked about the virus to bob woodward in february, juxtaposed to how he talked about it to the american people for the last few months? >> nothing shocks me anymore. nothing about the president's behavior shocks me. what really struck me about it, and what i think is really important to note as we go closer and closer to the election is this is how the president is talking to bob woodward, who is a treasure of washington, but a real creature

of washington. and he's basically saying to him, i trust you, bob woodward, with the real information. you deserve to know the real information. but the american public, the people who are in my base who support me, you're either too dumb to understand or not deserving of the real truth, but these creatures of washington, they can understand. i can spend my time telling them the real truth. that's an important point to hammer home as people decide whether or not they want to continue to trust donald trump leading up to the election. do you want someone who is going to tell the entire american public the truth or do you want someone who will tell the media elite and people of washington the truth as we go into november? >> i have one more question for you, natasha. what you bring to the conversation in terms of the national security sphere is something i think the american people need to have in their back pocket, in the back of their mind. as we go forward over these next 50 something days in this election, what should the

american people be on the lookout for to understand like how the election is being impacted and the actions being taken by the president to either distract from bad news or to propel more disinformation? >> i think we've come a long way since 2016. the american public is much more savvy about disinformation efforts than they were. the intelligence community is much more on its guard against foreign actors. we've seen a greater deal, frankly, of transparency surrounding these foreign efforts this time around than we had in 2016, even amid the trump administration's purported pressure to hold that back because the president is sensitive about anything that might delegitimize his victory or his election. the public needs to be constantly aware of the sources of news reports, the sources of information. the russians are not the only

ones interfering. it's also the chinese who are trying to poke around and the iranians as well. there will be a more concerted attempt by the president and his allies to throw whatever they can against the wall, against his opponent joe biden, and that includes potentially using information from bad actors who are acting as cutouts for these russian actors. >> natasha bertrand, jill wine-banks, emily jane fox, maya wiley, thank you very, very much for being here this morning. >> before we go to break, i want you to take one last look at my interview with the president's personal attorney, rudy giuliani. >> one of your former colleagues, lev parnas, sent out a tweet i want to read to you. now @rudygiuliani @realdonald trump's attorney, wants the

world to know that he did not know who derkach was when he flew to ukraine to receive this misinformation on @joe biden. lev remembers, rudy never learns, truth matters. what's your reaction? >> he is lying, a known thief. >> for someone who is the godfather of my son as soon as i supposedly got indicted, like steve bannon is a great guy and should never have been indicted suddenly i'm a liar and i'm a crook. enly i'm a liar and i'm a crook. the lexus es. every curve, every innovation, every feeling. a product of mastery. lease the 2020 es 350 for $359 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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go to stamps.com/try and never go to the post office again. do you have any sense that that privilege has isolated and put you in a cave to a certain extent, as it put me and, i think lots of white, privileged

people in a cave and that we have to work our way out of it to understand the anger and the pain, particularly black people feel in this country? do you -- >> no. you really drank the kool-aid, didn't you? just listen to you. wow. no, i don't feel that at all. >> among the many disturbing things donald trump said to bob woodward in interview excerpts released this week, one thing in particular stuck out for me. it wasn't his dismissal of how systemic racism hurts black americans. it wasn't when he denied white privilege and mocked woodward for empathizing with black pain. we already know what trump thinks of black people. he told us straight up back in 2016. we have bad schools, no jobs and poverty. four years later, trump thinks we're just not grateful enough. he told woodward he has done a tremendous amount for black people, but he's not feeling the

love. so, joining me now is a table full of black people. business and political marketing consultant, tara dardell, associate professor of women and gender studies brittany cooper and senior writer at theroot.com, michael harriet. y'all, when i saw that particular quote, i'm not feeling the love, my head exploded. why do you think black people should give you any love? brittany cooper, i know you're right there in the middle. i'm going to start with you. your reaction to what president trump said to bob woodward about us. >> look, let me put the remix on kool-aid. trump is all up in the kool-aid and don't know the flavor. has no idea what is happening in race relations in this country, actually is deluded into thinking that black people should have any level of respect for him when his administration has been in an all-out war.

but he says obama isn't smart. obama can't speak well. we all know whatever we may think about president obama politically that he's absolutely smart and can speak well. look, trump just works in a deluded sense. he wants admiration, loyalty. he wants people to be committed to him, but he doesn't think that he needs to govern for black people or with any black folks' interest in mind. a dangerous republican talking point that my few old republican friends from high school have said the democratic party makes black people enslaved. they think we're all drinking the kool-aid. that is something that republicans have told themselves, they're the party of lincoln and are going to free us, right? we need to all put the kool-aid down. >> michael harriet? >> well, i think, you know -- i understand what brittany is saying, but i feel differently. i think donald trump is just a white man, right? like white people really do

think they understand race relations, and 75% of white people live around other white people or majority white areas, so they live in this echo chamber where they really feel like they understand race relations and someone like donald trump, who has probably never spent a significant amount of time around two or more black people in his entire life, he probably wonders why black people aren't applauding him and patting him on the back, like all the other accol krchlt krac surrounded himself with. if you didn't know it was donald trump, it could be any white man who thinks that black people are too dumb to choose their party on their own and somehow we all came to the same conclusion that the democratic party is better than the republican party because we were fooled by some collective hypnosis. and so i understand what he's

saying because he sounds like any other rich, powerful white man who has always been a rich, powerful white man. >> so, tara, i purposely came to you last because you know the man. your impressions of what you heard on the tapes, but also respond to what michael harriet was just saying in terms of his reaction. is that an accurate reaction, or an accurate portrayal of the president of the united states? >> i agree with michael in that i think this country has always wanted us to not just accept oppression, not just accept injustice, but they want us to like it. they want us to be grateful to be here. there is a belief within, amongst many white americans that somehow we should be grateful. and you hear it if you look at -- follow the alt right, when you look at things that are said

online, on social media. there is that pervasive belief. i want to say this about donald trump. donald trump understands things a lot more than people give him credit for. one of the first lessons i learned when i worked in government is that at its very essence, government is about the distribution of resources. so, to acknowledge white privilege is to acknowledge the need for systemic change. it is to acknowledge the need for a radical change in the way we distribute resources via government. and so donald trump is very aware of that. when i was on "the apprentice," he approached me about things because he knew i had worked in government. he knew where i worked and he knew who i had access to. he came to me looking for me to help him with something. this is while we were taping "the apprentice." so he fundamentally understands how government works. now he will project not understanding that, but he does.

every wealthy white person in this country understands at its essence how government works, and they want to maintain the system as it is, or continue to have the system advantage towards them. donald trump is no different, and that's why so many of them who have previously supported democrats went and supported donald trump, because of that understandin understanding. >> i'm sorry, tara. that is -- that is great insight. my mind is a little scrambled, because i'm thinking about something brittany said in her response, because the thing that i find most fascinating is president trump's obsession with president obama. so here is what trump told woodward. i don't think obama is smart, trump told woodward. i think he's highly overrated. and i don't think he's a great speaker.

now, listen to what donald trump's former fixer, michael cohen, had to say about the way trump views obama. >> his hatred for barack obama is plain and simple. he's black. he went to harvard law. he graduated the top of his class. he's incredibly articulate. he's all the things that donald trump wants to be, right? and he just can't handle it. >> okay. we've got less than a minute left. i'm going to start with michael, then brittany, then tara. your reaction to president obama living rent free in president trump's head. >> i think he's just an insecure person who sees someone who is better than him. >> brittany? >> i think we shouldn't be generous. i think trump knows exactly what he's doing. he's an old-school white supremacist. that project is about devaluing black life in order to elevate whiteness. it's an old game. he knows it. and we shouldn't let him off the

hook by merely calling him ignorant. he knows. he knows. >> tara dowdell? >> i agree i think michael cohen said it perfect ly. that's exactly what's going on, but he's also using it as a way to further divide the country and further attack black people. >> tara dowdell, brittany cooper and michael harriet, thank you for joining the conversation. >> the very scare and real danger between the fire, snow and hurricanes that are ravaging america and the rest of the world. e ravaging america and the rest of the world. kraft. for the win win. for bathroom odors that linger try febreze small spaces. just press firmly and it continuously eliminates odors in the air and on soft surfaces. for 45 days.

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breaking news from the border. nearly 9,000 unaccompanied minors have been expeled from the united states due to a pandemic measure ending their asylum. the cdc emergency order took effect in march. joining me now, live from arizona, is jacob soborov,

author of "separated." jacob, thank you for being here. tell us what's going on. >> reporter: jonathan, we were here on the border when the news broke late in the evening. throughout family separations the trump administration had one goal, to immediately expel migrant children as soon as they got to this country, in addition to being able to indefinitely detain parents. they've expeled 8,800 unaccompanied children here under the cover of the coronavirus. when they get here, lawyers say they have little legal protections, little alcohol's to due process and have been kept in hotels in many instances. lawyers have been up in arms. we haven't had a full accounting of the numbers. but the total for unaccompanied children, 8,800, 7,700 families and under the guise of the

coronavirus is 159,000. i would like to say real quick, jonathan, there's evidence that the government, despite the fact that this is a public health rule, they are deporting people who do not have the coronavirus, contradicting their own underlying justification for what lawyers say is inc inconscionable. jonathan? >> jacob soboroff, thank you for being here. more "am joy" after the break. more "am joy" after the break. t. t. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz. the first and only pill of its kind that treats moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, or moderate to severe ulcerative colitis when other medicines have not helped enough. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections, like tb and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms,

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california, folks, is america fast forward. what we're experiencing right here is coming to a community all across the united states of america unless we get our act together on climate change, unless we disabuse ourselves of all the bs being spewed by a very small group of people that have an ideological reason to advance the cause of a 19th century framework and solution. we're not going back to the 19th century. we're not apologist to that status quo. >> much of the west coast is literally on fire. the governor of california says it's a sign of things to come if the entire country does not take climate change seriously. more than 3 million acres are burning in california, giving the sky an eerie, orange glow, a

scene that you would think came from the movie "the day after tomorrow." yet as these climate fires engulf california, washington and oregon, colorado set a record this week for both heat and snow, get this, within just 48 hours. if the tropical storm that is itching to form in the gulf of mexico, the wildfires on the west coast and colorado's crazy weather change happening all in one week don't scream climate change, then i don't know what does. joining me now is meteorologist paul douglas. paul, thank you very much for being on this show today. can you make -- i tried to make the connection there in the intro for the viewers, but can you, as a meteorologist, talk about why the wild weather in colorado is related to the fires in -- on the west coast in washington, oregon and california? >> sure. thank you, jonathan, for having me on. it's a pleasure. and, yeah, this is head-shaking,

jaw-dropping weather. everything is connected. typhoons in the pacific can impact the configuration and shape and speed of the jet stream, which impacts weather downwind. meteorologists talk about weather weirding. we've had hurricanes and wildfires and crazy weather extremes since the dawn of time. but we're turning up the dial. we're turning up the volume. the extremes are trending more extreme. i'm a penn state meteorologist. i've been tracking the weather day-to-day for 40 years, and increasingly, the weather is playing out of tune. we are seeing these jaw-dropping, head-shaking extremes, and what's happening in the west? i'm a meteorologist. i track the weather. i'm in touch with climate scientists every day. they've gone from concerned to scared. what they predicted, what the climate models predicted 30 years ago is coming true.

dry areas are trending drier, wet areas are trending wetter. the west has warmed up two degrees. this is the result, the sidio you're looking at, the apocalyptic scenes, something you would see maybe on mars, not here in the united states. but we are going to be seeing more of these kinds of examples of weather weirding in the years ahead, and we need -- >> you know you -- go ahead, paul. >> i was going to say, look, i'm a voter. i'm a citizen. i'm a meteorologist. i'm on my seventh weather technology business. if i ignore data that makes me squirm, that makes me uncomfortable, i will go out of business. we can't engage in magical thinking, wishful thinking, alternate realities. we should be debating policy. what do we do about this? we should not be debating the science. and right now, a warmer climate in the west is fanning the flames and making the air almost

unbreathable in many large cities, and this may be the tip of the iceberg. >> you know, paul, you mentioned the typhoons over in asia, and this is what fascinated me about this particular story in terms of the weather this past week. the typhoon that hit in -- i can't remember which, but the big weather event in asia is what has been driving the weather here in the united states, particularly with the hot/cold happening in colorado, but that's also helping to fan the fires in -- on the west coast. is that right? can you talk about how something happening clearly on the other side of the world is wreaking havoc on us here in the united states? >> that's a great question, jonathan. yes, a major disruption in one

spot can have ripple effects miles downwind. that's what we're seeing. i never in my life have seen what happened in orway, colorado, last week. they went from 104 degrees one day to four inches of snow less than 48 hours later. just crazy extremes. so there's little doubt, in my mind, in the mind of most meteorologists. the symptoms are becoming harder to dismiss and harder to deny and, again, my take, let's debate what we do about it by ignoring it, by engaging in magical thinking, conspiracy theories. we're not doing our kids any favors, and we are accountable for our actions and our words. and by doing nothing, i think at some point there's going to be hell to pay. young people have their eyes wide open. they see what's happening, and they vote. and they're not going to close

off their minds or their eyes to what's happening right now with a rapidly changing climbed. so when people say, what do we do? my take, vote for people who still have a respect for science at a local, state and national level. we can debate what to do about it, but it's happening. look out the window. turn on the tv. you can see the symptoms of a warmer, drier climate in the west. and now we have a new tropical system forms just south of florida, and that may turn into hurricane sally here within the next day or so, threatening the gulf coast. and, again, we've always had these major weather systems since the dawn of time, but right now they're super sized. they're turbocharged. we are juicing the weather, and it's coming back to bite us. >> paul douglas, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this issue with the urgency it deserves. thank you for being here.

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is somewhere. the all-new chevy trailblazer. ♪ it was interesting getting people from both sides and older gay couples would whis perfect in our ear, stop kissing. people aren't ready to see that. you have to hide some of that. i said no, everybody else gets to kiss their spouse. i'm going to kiss my spouse because i'm proud of him. >> the buttigieg's open and closed with a kiss. introducing his husband and former south bend mayor, pete buttigieg, or peter, as he calls him in his new memoir for his presidential campaign concession speech which you're looking at right now. now in "the new york times" best seller "i have something to tell

you," chasten tells you about meeting mayor pete, and bring ing to the political main stage. joining me now is "new york times" best seller chasten buttigieg. how does that feel? >> it feels great but i am doing a lot of talking about kissing lately. >> well, go on. >> everybody wants to talk about the kiss, which i'm fine with. i'm very proud of my husband. >> well, i mean, did it -- we played the clip of you responding to people flipping out for better or for worse about you kissing, but were you surprised that even in 2020, people still have problems seeing people who love each other express affection for each other in ways we've seen for

mill millenia? >> no, i was pretty surprised when i was getting it from both sides. sometimes it was a pretty hard tightrope to walk. some people are telling you not to kiss, some are telling you you're not enough. i was going to go out and be who i am, who we were and if people liked it, that's great. if not, oh, well. >> you know, what i loved about your book is that from beginning to end, you talk about your struggles with -- i think you just used the term about being enough, worrying that, you know, you are not enough for either your friends or partners, or just for society. and you write in the intro of your book, which i thought was a great template for the message you want to tell us. you write the more time i spent out on the campaign trail, reflecting on my own life and seeing myself in other people's stories, the more i realize that the experiences and memories i was scared of, embarrassed of or keeping hidden weren't as weird,

mockable or inappropriate to discuss in the context of national politics as i had assumed they were. talk more about that, and how you came to discover that those things that you were trying to hide of yourself were actually things that made you accessible to people. >> yeah. i think we are constantly told in our society, you know, many things that make us feel broken. i have insurmountable student debt. i'm broken. i have medical debt. something is wrong with you. you didn't graduate college in four years. you've lived paycheck to paycheck. you didn't figure out what you wanted to be when you grow up at age 18. i feel many of us keeps these things locked inside because society tells us if we don't have it all figured out, we are broken individuals. i write about that in the book. i had all these thoughts about who i was supposed to be in the political arena. because i was a teacher who had all this student debt and medical debt that i wasn't fit

to be in that position. and i realized these are experiences that millions of americans share. and we really need to open up and talk about them. so i found out the more vulnerable i am, the more open i am about those things, the more people feel they have a connection to the campaign. >> you also write in the book -- i'm going to read this here. whether i was hearing the stories of young, queer people who had been kicked out of their homes and didn't know what to do next or talking to factory workers who were afraid of what was going to happen to their jobs or hosting a roundtable with fellow teachers who felt they weren't getting the support they needed, i was constantly reminded that americans should be able to see themselves in the people tasked with representing them at the highest levels of governmen government. >> absolutely. there were many times on the campaign trail i would be in iowa. i would be watching peter have these phenomenal conversations with farmers, teachers and moms demand activists and i would be scrolling through twitter and

see this silly twitter drama and would know that's what peter was going to get asked about in the press gaggle. but people on the ground want to kn know, how are you going to make my life better? this is kitchen table politics. are you going to make it better or worse? out in iowa, we were talking about, you know, tar actives on crops, we were talking about getting teachers the supplies they needed, and so often we are attracted to the show, whatever is happening on twitter, whatever is happening on television, but people want to see themselves reflected in your campaign and in politics. do you know me? do you see me? and are you going to fight for me? at the end of the day, i think that's what this election is all about. >> we've got a couple of minutes left, chas. as an openly gay married man out on the campaign trail, how did it feel to you, personally, to have lgbtq people come up to you, shaking, with tears in their eyes, talking to you about what you and your husband meant to them? >> i open up about this in the

book. you know, i was a suicidal teenager, sitting in my parents' basement, thinking about ending it all because this world did not see me for me and i did not see a hopeful future. then i went out on the campaign trail and met people who never imagined we would even see this d day, to have not only a gay man running for president but with his husband at his side, and to do so well. to feel like i got to become a figure that i wish i would have had when i was that scared, 17-year-old kid sitting in the basement. that is the biggest gift i've ever been given. it's such a privilege to have that platform. i just want to make sure i keep getting it right, keep doing the work. >> real quickly, we did an event to talk about your book, and i listed all of the jobs that you have had, and they are a lot. but the one that jumped out is, and everyone knows, you were a barista at starbucks. there are foam people and then

the mocha shaving or frapuccino people, who are the worst? >> i think anyone who takes out their grievance or the bad day on a barista is the worst. people are yelling at you because they don't have caramel drizzle. be kind to your barista. they're trying to make a bunch of drinks. the woman who wants a whisper of nutmeg. i don't know what that meant. she came in every day. >> it was never right. chasten buttigieg, author of "i have something to tell you: a memoir." offline i'm going to ask you where you got that shirt because i want that shirt. and that is going to do it for our show today. join me for more "am joy" tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. my guests include former vice presidential candidate joe lieberman, who just endorsed

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good day, everyone. from msnbc headquarters here in new york, it's high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex wit witt." putting tens of thousands at risk. neighborhoods gone in minutes.

a toxic haze in the air. the proof now in the polls. new numbers are out on whether the president's law and order attacks on joe biden are working. the warning about russian hackers aimed at the election. what edward snowden said in an msnbc exclusive interview from moscow. >> the solution to disinformation is not to freak out that it exists, but to get your news from reliable sources and think critically about everything you hear. there's no way to hack logic. >> we begin this hour with more on those devastating wildfires, burning throughout the west coast. large fires are breaking records, in fact, in the states of california, oregon, and washington. this map from the national wildfire coordinating group is giving you a sense of the magnitude of this problem. just look at that. and the degree of difficulty in tackling all of these fires at the same time. the bobcat fire in the angeles national forest has grown