his sames otatements on that's not true anymore. the closer we get to the election i worry a lot about what he will do with maybe not the career prosecutors but with the political appointees, either as we get closer to an election or in the aftermath with very close ballot counting. >> matt miller, thank you so much that is "all in" for this wednesday night. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris, thank you, my friend. >> you bet. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour let's just jump right in there's a few things coming together in the news right now that are connected to each other and i think it's worth sort of being clear about the picture that is emerging from those stories that are all emerging in the news right now i will also tell you that the bottom line when you get to it is pretty unsettling, but all the more reason to take it seriously and to look at it clearly. so let's just start straight in. first of all, you may have seen today that the odd, very odd, trump campaign guy, the old roger stone protege, the guy who

worked for paul manafort in russia when manafort was servicing russian oligarchs close to the kremlin, this very odd duck who's turned up in all sorts of weird fringey ways in the trump universe for years, michael caputo, the man who the trump administration put in charge of the cdc, the trump administration installed him as the top spokesman at the health and human services department. he then took it upon himself to try to block the cdc from publishing its scientific reports on covid he and some guy who he appointed to be his scientific adviser, even though he was just a spokesman, came in and said that they were overruling the entire cdc. they actually successfully got cdc to change wording in some of their scientific reports they forced delays of other cdc studies about coronavirus, which michael caputo decided he didn't like and so they got held back for weeks. you may have seen today that michael caputo, today, is out.

he announced that he is taking a leave of absence after the publication last night by yahoo! news of a facebook live video from this past weekend in which michael caputo seemed to be going kind of nuts talking about how hit squads were coming to get him and everybody needs to buy ammunition and there are assassination drills happening all over the country and he's sure they're all coming for him and he was scared of the long shadows he could see on the ceiling of his apartment that was first reported by "the new york times." it was first published last night by yahoo! news and now today michael caputo is gone he says he is taking a 6 o-day leave of absence the election is in 48 days we'll see if michael caputo comes back 12 days after that. but when michael caputo's leave of absence was announced health and human services also announced his so-called science adviser, the guy who was literally writing to the cdc

demanding that he and only he could decide what would be published as scientific findi s findings, michael caputo's science adviser is not taking a leave of absence like caputo he has actually been fired or at least let go from health and so human services whether or not michael caputo ever comes back it's a little weird that as spokesperson had hired his own scientific adviser, anyway he's a spokesperson for a scientific agency. you don't need your own scientific adviser to tell you about the sicience when you are supposed to be the spokesperson for an agency full o scientists it was weird from the outset is wasn't clear who this guy was who mikechael caputo hired to wk with him to overrule the entire centers for disease control during an epidemic that's already cost 200,000 lives the man had been described in press reports as an assistant professor at a college in canada late yesterday that fell apart, too, or sort of.

the college in canada put out a public statement pointing out that the man who was working as michael caputo's scientific adviser doesn't actually work at that college he did have an assistant professor contract gig a while back, but he doesn't teach there now. he does not speak for the university and the university was like, did we mention the dude doesn't even work here? stop associating him with us so that's happened within the past 24 hours, and that -- that is becoming a little bit of a theme because around the same time that the white house installed nutball michael caputo to go become the spokesperson for the health part of the u.s. government even though he has no background in health whatsoever and he, you know, picked up this random, unemployed, low-level academic from canada to become the new voice of scientific authority for the u.s. government on covid, overruling all the scientists of the cdc, around the same time the white house was installing this clown show atop the centers for

disease control, they were also bringing this guy onboard at the white house, itself. reportedly because the president liked seeing him on the fox news channel. he is not an infectious disease doctor or an epidemiologist or any kind of expert or scholar or even a trained person in any kind of public health. he is a doctor he's a radiologist specifically, he specializes in taking mris of people's heads. but in march of this year, as the epidemic was taking off in this country starting to kill americans by the boatload, in march this conservative radiologist started publishing op-peds like this one in right-wing newspapers where he said there's no reason, really, to worry all that much about coronavirus. he said in march that it was only likely to kill about 10,000 people total in the u.s. before it was gone. and really who cares about that. compare that to the flu. well, tens of thousands more

deaths down the road, this same doctor, scott atlas, built himself into a tv pundit arguing, improbably, but insi insiste insistently, that the more americans get infected by covid the better >> we like the fact that there's a lot of cases, that's exactly how we're going to get herd immunity pop laegs immuulation immunity. >> these people getting the infection is not really a problem and, in fact, as we said months ago, when you isolate everyone including all the healthy people, you're prolonging the problem because you're preventing population immunity low-risk groups getting the infection is not a problem in fact, it's a positive this total isolation policy prevents broad population immunity there's really no risk to young people it doesn't matter if children get the disease. it's actually good news that the virus spreads widely because that means that we have a better

chance of developing population immunity it's fantastic news that we have a lot of cases >> "it's fantastic news that we have a lot of cases. that's what we're going for. it's good news if the virus spreads widely that's exactly how we're going to get herd immunity." the more infections the better so the white house, these things come together, right the white house puts michael caputo and his nonworking assistant professor friend from canada to control what the cdc is allowed to publish in terms of science about covid and at the white house they installed this guy from fox news to tell the president what national policy should be on covid. president sees him on fox news, likes what he's saying, brings him into the white house to advocate it there and to make national policy. and now simultaneously just as that college in canada is letting us know that michael caputo's science adviser doesn't work there and he should stop telling people that he does, now

simultaneously we've got stanford medical school faculty publishing an open letter letting the country know no matter how much president trump loves to describe this guy, scott atlas, as a stanford doctor, he hasn't actually worked at stanford medical school in years and by the way, his former colleagues there think at least on this sunday he's kind of a quack "dear colleagues, as infectious disease physicians and researchers, microbiologists, immunologists, epidemiologists, we have both a moral and ethical responsibility to call attention to the falsehoods and misrepresentations of science recently fostered by dr. scott atlas, a former stanford medical school colleague many of his opinions and statements run counter to established science. the dozens of undersigned stanford faculty members point out that the use of face masks and social distancing and other public health measures have been shown to reduce the spread of covid even though scott atlas has by in large denounced them they point out asymptomatic people including kids can

transmit it to others. they point out thought kids, themselves, can get infected with serious consequences for themselves despite the fact that scott atlas denies that, too, and then here's the, ahem, please pay attention part of what his former colleagues are warning about him. they say, "encouraging here inid immunity through unchecked transmission is not a safe strategy this would pose a significant increase in preventable cases suffering in deaths. in other words, oh my god, how is it possible, how is it possible that this guy's in the white house? he's a quack on this stuff he's advocating stuff that is totally contrary to established science and that is very dangerous. he's at the white house? using his stanford credentials to try to shine up his reputation here and the president's bragging on that all the time i mean, so warned scott atlas' former colleagues from the

medical school from wrich hehic no longer. and by the way, he was a radiologist, not somebody who actually worked on infectious diseases, before the white house plucked him from obscurity/fox news to bring him into the white house to run the response to an infectious disease epidemic, something on which he has zero experti expertise. so these things are coming together in the news right? caputo today is out as the trump guy, riding herd on the cdc, his so-called science adviser has been exposed by the academic institution he tried to associate him with meanwhile, the white house top covid doctor is also exposed by his former colleagues at the institution the white house has tried to associate him with but this isn't a personnel story what this is about now, thanks to the president being unable to con dane himsetain himself and o say everything that crosses his mind all the time the moment it first occur s to him, this is no a personnel story. what this is now is a window

into what guys like this have actually done to the country because the trump white house, and the president personally, has brought in these way out of left field substitute experts to replace the real experts and to control what's said by the government, what scientific data gets out from the government and the way the white house leads policy on the pandemic what has been the effect of them doing that well, here's the other piece of this today there's this from congressman jim clyburn who runs the select committee set up in the house to run oversight on the coronavirus crisis today clyburn's committee told the white house that they need to start publicly releasing their advice to individual states about how to handle the pandemic at the state level. because the white house has been advising individual states for a couple of months now but while the white house has tried to keep those documents secret, some of them have leaked to the press. some of them have now been obtained by the committee. the committee has now made them public and what they found is

nutball. and, again, this isn't wrong person being charged with the policy this isn't person who shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of policy miraculously getting hired and how did that happen, how did that slip through the cracks this is actually what we're doing. see if you can see what went wrong here the impact on our country of the trump white house deciding they're going to go with their own experts who they found on tv, in bars, whatever, instead of the people who know what they're doing. all right? watch this start in nebraska. this is white house guidance for the state of nebraska, august 23rd "dear nebraska, you're in the yellow zone. you have the 24th highest rate of new cases in the country and it's getting worse you need to act. recommendation from the white house to nebraska as of august 23rd, "a mask mandate needs to be implemented statewide okay that's august 23rd. a mask mandate needs to be

impleme implemented. look at this two weeks later. more advice from the white house. "dear nebraska, eke, you are no longer in the yellow zone like we told you two weeks ago. you're to longer the 24th highest rate of new cases in the country. you're now 14th highest. you're no longer in the yellow zone, you're in the red zone, this is bad. look inexplicably despite nebraska getting that much worse over those two weeks in the second recommendation the two-weeks later recommendation when things are that much worse, the white house drops recommendation for nebraska to require masks. they said two weeks before a mask mandate needs to be implemented statewide. two weeks later things are way worse than nebraska but no more recommendation that there be a mask requirement same for north dakota. this is white house guidance dear north dakota, you're in trouble, you're in the red zone. you need to make some changes. recommendations from the white house. as, okay, recommendations. right?

north dakota you need to strongly encourage masking statewide. you need to mandate masks in the worst of your counties you need to limit occupancy levels and operating hours in restaurants and bars you need to close bars in high-transmission parts of the state. that's august 16th three weeks later, september 6th, here's the white house again. whoa, whoa, north dakota, two weeks ago you were the 13th highest rate of new cases in the country. now you're number one. you're the worst in the country. you are in the red zone with an exclamation point. north dakota, you are literally the highest rate of transmission in the united states and our recommendation to you now is, ah, forget it. it's that much worse north dakota's at this point the worst in the nation, but the white house drops the mask recommendation, says nothing on restricting restaurants and bars, let alone closing them that stuff from three weeks earlier just goes away even as the situation in the state over those three weeks got so much worse.

that's north dakota. south dakota, same deal. from august 2nd to august 9th, to september 6th, south dakota went from 64 cases per 100,000 population, 64, to 71, to 235. and the white house tells them they're going from the yellow zone to the red zone right? oh, my god, by the time the white house is wrapping up its recommendations to south dakota, oh, my god, you're now the second worst state in the country, but yet, the white house drops its recommendation on masks the white house started out when things weren't that bad in south dakota with this stern recommendation that south dakota should, quote, require face masks in indoor settings and then as the state of south dakota got worse and worse and worse, they just dropped that recommendation all this exposed in previously private, secret, white house documents, white house advice to individual states that have now been made public by clyburn's

committee. what's going on here right? you see this pattern right? i mean, we are at 200,000 dead americans. we are stuck every day at tens of thousands of new cases every day. and now we know that the white house is recommending not just publicly but privately that states ease up on trying to stop this thing the white house no longer even recommending that states do things to stop the spread of this virus things that just weeks ago they were telling the states they needed to do what's going on here why would you tell them as things are getting worse in these states, why would you tell them, you know what, stop trying to slow this spread. we told you masks before, don't worry about it, don't do masks we told you to close bars, don't worry about it all these things are emerging at once in the news well, here is what's going on here >> it's actually good news that the virus spreads widely because

that means that we have a better chance of developing population immunity >> it would go away without the vaccine, george, but it's going to go away a lot faster -- >> it would go away without the vaccine? >> sure, over a period of time >> with many deaths. >> and you'll develop -- you'll develop, like, a herd mentality. it's going to be -- it's going to be herd developed and that's going to happen. that will all happen. >> we like the fact that there's a lot of cases that's exactly how we're going to get herd immunity, population immunity >> well, once you get to a certain number, you know, we use the word, "herd," right, once you get to a certain number, it's going to go away. >> it will go away without the vaccine? >> sure, over a period of time, sure, with time, it goes away. >> with many deaths. >> and you'll develop herd -- like a herd mentality. >> this is very, very, very bad, but let's just talk about this for a second let's just do the math on this for a second i mean, the president saying in this abc town hall last night, "herd mentality, it goes away

without a vaccine. what he's trying to say, i mean, it's hilarious in its own level that he's saying herd mentality when he means herd immunity. setting that aside, what he's trying to say is herd immunity now, the president used to reference the idea of herd immunity publicly. he used to say he was against it, that it was a terrible idea, it would kill way too many americans. but now he's got this new adviser, not an expert, not somebody who is steeped in the science here according to his own colleagues but this new expert who the president has brought into the white house is apparently now convinced the president on herd immunity and so this is now what we're going to do. this has been written off as some of the president's nonsense, it's not worth paying too much attention to because he has such a hard time spitting the words out, right don't watch what he says watch what he's doing. we can now pair these almost laughable, he can't remember the right words, can't spit it out,

words from him with what he's actually doing and what he' saying, it's what he's doing, we have to recognize this as a huge deal because what the president is letting us know, what's going to happen in our country with or without a vaccine, to his mind, the way it's going to go away is we will aim for herd immunity. not just saying it we now know he's doing it. let's do the math on this, right? this will keep you up at night i'm sorry. let's do it. let's be super rosy in our assumptions. right? the idea behind his cockamamy theory which is apparently our national policy now, why north dakota isn't bold told to mask up anymore, the idea behind this cockamamy theory is in the absence of a vaccine maybe enough people will get infected by this disease and survive it and become immune from it that their very existence will help slow down the spread of the virus in the future and that's how it will come to a halt right? that's the theory.

with this disease, we really don't know if it works that way. we don't know if getting infected with covid actually prevents you from getting it in the future look at the w.h.o.'s latest advice on the subject. they're super clear about it question, does the presence of antibodies against covid-19 mean a person is immune and protect ed from being infected again answer, no one knows yet if you don't like the w.m.h. o., ask the mayo clinic. quote, it isn't yet clear if infection of the covid virus makes a person immune. we don't know if getting it one keeps bow fr s you from getting. we don't know. this is not the sort of thing you'd like to guess about. if it turns out you can get it once and get it again, the whole premise of this goes out the window in terms of it having any benefit to infect a lot of people whatsoever. let's assume for the purposes of trying to figure out what the

president is doing here, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. let's assume the science goes his way on this. let's assume that getting you infected does make you immune. again, this is not at all supported by the science, but let's just say, let's just grant him that and then let's let our next assumption be just as rosy per the mayor cl clinic again, , expert estimate of how much of the population you'd need to be infected in order to make this work is about 70% of the population "experts estimate that in the united states 70% of the population would have to be infected with covid-19 and recover from it to be able to halt the epidemic. so 70% is the expert estimate for how this plan would work again, let's -- let's give the president even more of the benefit of the doubt let's be super generous and rosy in our assumptions and say that, "a," definitely everybody who gets it is immune. and let's also say it's only -- it's not 70%, it's only 65% of the country that needs to get infected in order to make this

new white house plan work. and, again, what's the plan? >> we use the word, "herd," right? once you get to a certain number, it's going to go away. >> we like the fact that there's a lot of cases that's exactly how we're going to get herd immunity, population immunity. >> you'll develop -- you'll develop, like, a herd mentality. >> this is the plan. right? so the herd mentality, the herd immunity, let's say to be super rosy in our assumptions, let's say in order for this to work, since this is what the president says is going to happen here, it's going to go away without a vaccine, it's going to go away with the herd. right? he means herd immunity, he says herd mentality forgive him. let's forgive him all the false assumptions here right? that aren't supported by the science. let's just give him everything he says is going to happen let's say it's only 65% of the population you need infected let's say everybody who gets infected is immune let's just grant it to him well, do the math. we're 330 million people in this

country. under this plan they'd need 65% of 330 million people to be infected they'd need 215 million americans to be infected that's what they would aim for for herd immunity. well, right now, we've got roughly 6.6 million people infected in this country and roughly 200,000 americans dead which means our fatality rate cumulatively in this country is just under 3%. it's 2.97% of all people who have been diagnosed with covid-19 in this country have died with it. if that fatality rate stays the same and we go for herd mentality, i mean, herd immunity, if 2.97% of all the americans who get infected die from this thing, which is what we've had so far, then what he's aiming for is 215 million americans dead, excuse me, 215 million americans infected, 2.97% of them dead that is 6,385,500 americans

dead that would be what he's aiming for here 6.4 million american deaths. now, let's rosy up our assumptions a little bit in terms of the fatality rate, this is a president that keeps lying. hydro hydroxychloroquine the cdc is warning about how that probably does more harm than good. the michael caputo who the trump administration put in charge of the cdc delayed the release of that report by weeks while presumably bad doctors around the country who watch fox news actually put their freaking patients on that stuff right? this is a president and administration and conservative media universe that has lied all the time from the very beginning about whether there's a treatment for covid or even a cure for covid no hydroxychloroquine isn't it convalescent plasma, even when they forced through the approval

of that so they'd have something to brag about at the republican convention, no, the science isn't there on that, either. there is no cure, there is no treatment. but let's be rosy about it, again, let's give him the benefit of the doubt right now the said the united states' overall cumulative death rate is nearly 3% of all people who've tested positive in this country have been killed by this disease. if that holds for this next stage of the trump plan, that would mean the trump white house is planning to kill off more than 6.3 million of us but, again, let's be therapeuti come around like they keep saying on fox news and the president says at the republican convention let's say the death toll drops coupumulativ cumulatively let's be wildly optimistic let's say the u.s. cumulative death toll for people infected with covid drops all the way to 1% efsh still, with this herd mentality, herd whatever, herd it will go away plan, the president is planning best-case

scenario, even if we triple our cumulative survival rate thus far, he's planning on killing off 1% of the population he wants to get herd infected right? how does that math work out? he's planning on killing off 1% of 215 million americans who he wants to get infected. which means the white house plan with all of the rosiest assumptions you can factor into it is to kill off 2.15 million americans. which is considerably more than ten times the number of us who have died already. 2.15 million dead. that's the best-case scenario. that's if everything goes great. that's the plan. the 1918 flu killed 675,000 americans. world war ii killed roughly 400,000 americans. world war i killed roughly 115,000 americans. the vietnam war killed nearly 630,000 americans. the new plan, what they're actually doing now, not just talking about but doing now, is to stop trying to contain the

virus, to let it just run through us as a population because the more people are infected the better. and honestly because trying to stop infections has proved to be toohard for this president all the other civilized countries on earth can handle it and are handling it and have lost a fraction of the people that we have, but it's too hard for him and he doesn't want to try. not when he's running for re-election. so he's planning this new plan it will go away, george, without a vaccine. it will go i way you get the herd, the herd mentality, we call it. he doesn't want to contain it anymore. he's planning on letting it run through us open everything up, open the schools, don't bother with masks. let's hold indoor rallies. let's spread it all over let's just stop the testing, right? demand the return of college football bring everything back full speed, transmission unabated because he says it will stop on its own. he says this thing will stop on its own with or without a vaccine. because of this herd thing

somebody explained to him once that he can't quite remember >> it will go away without the vaccine? zbl >> sure, over a period time sure. >> and many deaths. >> and you'll develop -- you'll develop, like, a herd mentality. it's going to be -- it's going to be herd developed and that's going to happen. that will all happen >> this is a real thing the president is bumbling through here we now know based on documents exposed by the congress, we now know that this is not something he is just saying. this is something that he is doing and his administration is putting into effect. and in this scenario under this theory that he is using as his operative theory for how the country is dealing with covid now, in this scenario the best-case outcome is 2.1 million of us ead. and that's if our cumulative fatality rate comes way down from where it has been thus far. that said, if things stay the way they have been so far, plan

on maybe more like 6 million just here. just in the u.s. that's what this herd mentality thing is that he can't even bother to memorize or learn to pronounce. that is the herd immunity idea that sweden tried for a while which gave them the worst death toll in northern europe until they panicked and stopped. what the ung tk tried to do for hot minute when the president started sidelining the actual epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors in the government because he instead wanted to go with the guy he saw on fox news who likes the herd immunity idea even though he's not even this kind of doctor, when the president dropped the real public health doctors and instead put this guy in charge then all of a sudden the u.s. government, the u.s. governmen stopped recommending people get tested and the government started saying who cares if everybody gets infected in schools and they rescind r si h sindhsind their mask recommendations when we started copping to the fact that this wasn't some viral

facebook meme the president was saying without even knowing how to pronounce it. former colleagues of scott atlas tried to sound the alarm, this guy that is running u.s. policy now doesn't know what he's talking about and specifically on the herd immunity idea he fundamentally doesn't know what he's saying. which is, you know, interesting in personnel terms it's kind of hilarious about dr. scott atlas and his career as a fox news channel contrarian radiologist. but this is also the plan that the u.s. government is following now under this president and this adviser who he likes better than the real doctors. this president can't figure out how to say it. he can't figure out how to pronounce it he can't remember all the syllables. this is what he's trying to do and this is what he's trying to say. i thought the first time he burbled it out it was some sort of random admission when he said this a few weeks ago in an interview. >> well, once you get to a certain number, you know, we used wous ed word, herd," right?

once you get to a certain number it's going to go away. >> that was a couple weeks from him. that seemed crazy. i thought he was random generating syllables he heard out of context and he didn't know what they attached to now he's repeating it. and from what we've learned about how his administration has shut off its previous private recommendations to states to try to slow down the spread, now we know this is not just what he's saying and repeating this is what he's going with >> it will go away without the vaccine? >> sure. over a period of time. sure with time. it goes away. >> and many deaths. >> and you'll develop -- you'll develop herd -- like, a herd mentality. it's going to be -- it's going to be herd developed and that's going to happen. that will all happen >> it is one thing to have somebody in the job of president who doesn't know what he's talking about and doesn't know that herd mentality and herd immunity are two different things it's preposterous. but he does mean herd immunity is what we're going for and that does, if it works, it does aim

for between 2.1 million and 6.4 million americans dead on purpose because he'd rather do that than do what every other country in the world has done and implement policies to contain this thing policies to contain this thing, that's too hard for him. so, he'll go with millions dead instead. 48 days until the election (groans) hmph... (food grunting menacingly) when the food you love doesn't love you back, stay smooth and fight heartburn fast with tums smoothies. ♪ tum tum-tum tum tums olay's new serum is so powerful, won. it renews skin better than $300, $500, even $600 serums. pretty amazing. olay. face anything. knowinit's hard.re is hard. eliminate who you are not first, and you're going to find yourself where you need to be.

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once again, disparaged the importance of wearing face masks. is the president providing appropriate leadership when it comes to this critical issue >> i'm not going to comment directly about the president, but i am going to comment as the cdc director that face macsks, these face masks are the most important powerful public health tool we have, and i will continue to appeal for all americans, all individuals in our country, to embrace these face coverings i've said it, if we did it for

6, 8, 10, 12, weeks, we'd bring this pandemic under control. >> cdc director robert redfield testifying today in the senate joining us now, dr. ashish jha, of brown university. dr. jha, thanks for joining us there's a lot going on in the news and it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you, rachel. >> let me start by getting your reaction to what we just heard there from dr. redfield. if we all wore masks for 6, 8, 10, 12, weeks, which is a range, we would bring this pandemic under control, calling masks the most important public health tool that we have right now. is that fair for him to put it that way >> yeah, it's clearly a very important public health tool so if everybody wore masks, 90% of americans wore masks let's say for sort of, like, 10 to 12 weeks, it would make a massive difference we could prevent a vast majority of the deaths that are likely to occur so i largely agree with dr. redfield, this is a really important prevention

>> this comes at the same time that we have learned that the white house has dropped its private recommendations to states that are in trouble, states that are having rising infection numbers, even as recently as a few weeks ago the white house was telling those states that in order to stop transmission they needed to institute mask requirements. they've now stopped doing that and they appear to have softened a lot of their other recommendations to states even as those states have worsening epidemiological circumstances. i find that very disturbing because i feel like that means the white house is stopping trying to get states to contain the virus. how do you view that news, particularly in light of that clear recommendation from dr. redfield there that masks work >> yeah, so a couple of things are going on one is the arrival of dr. scott atlas. so, you know, there's plenty of disagreement and discussions within the public health community about the right way to

hand l t handle the pandemic but dr. atlas holds views that are not within the mainstream. nobody believes in the things that he believes in. so he's not -- he's not a contrarian he's just completely out of the mainstream in his views. his arrival to the white house has meant that these really sensible guidelines that the white house was secretly sharing with states, which states were, by the way, passing out to many of us and saying these look pretty good, don't you think they're right? all of a sudden changed. and i suspect basically what has happened is that dr. atlas and his team are now getting to put in the recommendations and dr. debby birx and tony fauci who really are experts in this, their voices seem diminished to me at least in those recommendations. >> why would you tell a state to stop -- a state that where the infection rate is getting worse right now, what is the conceivable rationale for no longer recommending to that state that they use masks? >> well, there is this group of people, as we said, these are

not in the mainstream, they're not even just contrarians that we look at and say, whoa, they have some unusual views. these people, i think they don't know what they're talking about. they really do believe that the idea here is let's get everybody infected and, you know, we have robust debates about whether 1 million or 2 million or 6 million people would die from a herd immunity approach, but everybody agrees, it would be awful. it is a terrible strategy. there is no one i know who is a serious person in this area who actually thinks that anything resembling herd immunity is even remotely reasonable. my sense is dr. atlas believes it and that's what's driving the white house recommendations. i obviously don't know for sure, but that's what i'm guessing >> but the fact that -- the fact that the white house isn't just talking about it, that they are appearing to act this out in terms of what they're telling states to do and states that, like the white house are going along with these change recommendations, i find this

s - i find this turn in the news very disturbing. dr. ashish jha, thanks for being with us and being so clear as always. >> thank you, rachel. >> all right much more ahead tonight. stay with us this selenite grey is so pretty, isn't it? wow! jim, could you pop the hood for us? there she is. turbocharged, right? yes it is. jim, could you, uh, kick the tires? oh yes. can you change the color inside the car? oh sure. how about blue? that's more cyan, but. jump in the back seat, jim. act like my kids. how much longer? that's exactly how they sound. it's got massaging seats too, right? oh yeahhhhh. oh yeahhhhh.

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we covered an upsetting story here on the show last night about allegations arising from a whistle-blower complaint out of an i.c.e. detention facility in irwin county, georgia. according to the complaint immigrant and refugee women who are being held at this federal facility were routinely sent to a gynecologist who performed unnecessary procedures on them including hysterectomies one detainee quoted in the complaint says she's talked to five different women who were held at that facility between october and december all five said they were given medically unnecessary hysterectomies by this same doctor and at least some of these instances these women allegedly had their reproductive organs removed without them giving proper informed consent.

for the record, i.c.e. is denying these allegations. the doctor in question says he vehemently denies the allegations. the private company that operates this facility also says it refutes these allegations we have not independently confirmed whether these allegations are true this story was understandably met with horror and revulsion from the public including from a lot of you guys, our viewers, who we heard from after last night's show but it's also now raising the aha harlarm in congs and shaking loose more information. more than 170 congressional democrats have called for an immediate investigation into the claims by the inspector general at the homeland security department one of those lawmakers is congresswoman pramilla jayapal she has spoken with three lawyers who represent some of the women making these allegations and today said based on those conversations with those attorneys she thinks this is a bigger problem than what we knew last night. she says, "it appears that it may be at minimum 17 to 18 women

who were subjected to unnecessary medical gynecological procedures from just this one doctor often without appropriate consent or knowledge and with the clear intent of sterilization. according to congresswoman jayapal shsae ys her preliminary investigation indicates this is at least 17 women. congresswoman joins us next. stay with us get zero percent financing on the 2020 is 300. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. so to breathe better, i started once-daily anoro. ♪ copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night.

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♪ upbeat music >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ every curve, every innovation, every feeling. a product of mastery. lease the 2020 es 350 for $359 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. spoke to several lawyers who represent women detained at a facility in georgia, forced to undergo gynecological procedures without their consent while in federal custody. after those conversations, she believes that it may be as many as 17 women forced to undergo these medically unnecessary procedures she has information about specific women's experience that's almost unbelievably

horrifying she says one woman who was nearly deported this morning was put under for what she was told would be a simple procedure to wake up and found out that the doctor removed part of herrep reproductive organs without her consent. thank you for being here i appreciate you doing this investigative work already and helping us understand it. >> thank you, rachel >> i know that you are on the relevant subcommittee here but let me just ask about your initial reaction and how you pursued trying to learn more about these claims. >> well, when i heard about it, i heard about it through the whistleblower complaint and read that complaint, was quite disturbing about what was in there but unclear about how could we verify this so immediately felt that it was necessary to have an

investigation because the charges were serious of course you know i have been working on the ice medical issues in detention for a long time it was not beyond the pail that this would be happening. but then in the meantime i was able to talk last night with three attorneys who represent a number of women. and what happened is that when the story broke, these attorneys started talking to each other. you know, in the past they have had individual clients, but they weren't necessarily talking about what their clients were experiencing i think that when the story broke, it really led them to start to talk to each other and realize they each had clients with similar experiences for example, one set of attorneys said that, you know, often what might happen is that a woman is told she has ovarian cysts and she goes in to the doctor to get those ovarian

cysts drained and then she ends up with a medical procedure that is either a partial for full hysterectomy at least 17 to 18 women represented by attorneys have had these unnecessary medical procedures according to these attorneys who are extremely reputable. i know them, have worked with some of them, really do trust what they are saying in addition to that, rachel, as you know, many of the people who are in immigration detention are pro se they're completely unrepresented. they don't have attorneys. i think that if this was happening to these individuals that have attorneys and were just finding out about it, it is possible that this is even larger than just the 17 or 18 that we know of. >> i just described one anecdote that you shared today public talking about this woman pauline who said she consulted a doctor

about her men tral cycle she woke up and found that the doctor had removed part of her reproductive organs without her knowledge or consent you also note that she was very nearly deported this morning that you and some of your colleagues in congress had to intervene to prevent her from being sent out of the country while she is an important witness in this potential investigation. >> that's right. yesterday when i heard about all of this i immediately worked with chairman nadley and judy choo we got 173 members on a letter calling for an investigation by the office of the inspector general at dhs and then i hear from these attorneys last night this was probably 9:00 last night that they had just been told that pauline was going to be deported and she's one of the individuals that she will be on

a flight 8:30 this morning from texas. she had been transferred from georgia to texas and i immediately called my colleague sheila jackson lee and said we have to stop her from being deported because we need her for this investigation, and i am troubled that she is suddenly being deported. and so representative jackson lee did a fantastic job. she got a written confirmation last night that the stay would be for 72 hours. but then this morning when we checked, it turned out that pauline had still been put on that plane and again represented jackson lee she was able to call and get pauline taken off the plane in chicago that was a commercial flight pauline had already been flown from houston to chicago. but it was on the runway in chicago he was pulled off that

plane. she is now being returned to texas. she must be there by now and we intend to make sure we get to hear from pauline as part of our investigation and we're also calling on ice immediately to stop deporting any other women that might be a part of this investigation we need to talk to because we do know from these attorneys that some of their clients were already deported they were in touch with them one woman who had a procedure done is going back to get her medical record and making sure that we have that information. >> democrat of washington, this is obviously a very live and developing issue keep us apprised and thank you for helping us understand. >> thank you for addressing isth terrible, terrible issue. >> of course all right. we'll be right back. stay with us i see best-in-class platforms and education. i see award-winning service, and a trade desk full of experts,

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it is now time for me to get out of the way and quickly because lawrence o'donnell has bob woodward tonight i am out of here go, lawrence, go i cannot wait to see this. it's all yours. >> rachel, thank you very much really appreciate it thank you. i have been riveted to every word of interviews bob woodward has given about his new book "rage," and i have a list of things that have not been included in any of his previous interviews including his reporting on the mueller investigation, which in this